From the Plate to the Brain: The Neuroscience of Taste and Harmony: Dr. Peter Klosse.

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But the magic happens when there is a huge overlap in what

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the profile, the taste profile of the wine is

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and the taste profile of the dish. And if that

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overlaps and works together, then you get a harmonious feeling.

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And harmonious combinations are also proven by

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neuroscience and neuro aesthetics. If harmony happens,

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then the brain likes that. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation with Peter Clase.

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Classe. Did I say that right? Is that. Is that. That's a

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Dutch name. It's a Dutch name. I'm Dutch. Yes. And so there's no

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accent on the e, as a French word would be for the A

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part. Classe. Yeah. Okay. All right. Classe.

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Peter Classe is not just a chef. He's one of the most influential thinkers in

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modern gastronomy. As the founder of the Academy of Gastronomy and a

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pioneer in the scientific understanding of taste, he has dedicated his

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career to answering a deceptively simple question. Why do certain

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foods and wines work so well together? His work bridges the gap between

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the kitchen and the mind, exploring how flavor, texture, and perception come

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together to create a meaningful culinary experience. You know,

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we were just talking about. After I failed to turn on the record button

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and I conveyed the story about sitting in Paris and looking over the

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Eiffel Tower and. And getting this waft of

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this quiche that was. I ordered and it took me back 50 years to

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my mother's quiche because it was identical. And you responded with

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this idea of a definition between tasting

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and the idea of taste. So let's. Let's start with that, because I think this

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is an interesting definition. My approach has always been that we

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should try to find fundamental answers. And if you want to have

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fundamental answers, you need to distinct or make a distinction

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between subjective and objective, because subjective is, of course, a

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personal experience. It is you, or it's your mother,

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or it's where you are, or it's very much influenced by

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circumstances and taste. We

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could think taste or define taste

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as a product definition, as a product quality.

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So for me, the definition of taste is a product quality.

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As soon as you do that, you bring it into the objective

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world and you accept or acknowledge that

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taste is the result of molecules or of proteins

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or carbohydrates and fats and all kinds of things that we can measure.

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And that has been the basis of finding answers that

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were previously hard to answer, because then if it's all

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subjective. You believe taste is personal, then it's very hard

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to say anything about taste, really. And then you fall back

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on general beliefs, culture.

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It's always been done like that and things like that. Well, that's the interesting

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beauty in that. But it fails answering fundamental questions. It's

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an interesting part of the wine trade as well, in that most,

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not gonna say novices, just people that are entering into the trade or into the

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subject, the academic subject for the first time. But they generally

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tell you it's all subjective. And my response

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usually is it's subjective to the extent of what you like and don't like. But

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it's not subjective to a properly made wine

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that's reflective of the terroir, et cetera, et cetera. And then

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you can agree to go forward with the idea that there are

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structurally important things with wine, and I would suspect with food

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as well. That's exactly what the distinction that I'm

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referring to as well. Then you can go on with that and say within

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even the wine education and research,

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the part of

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the aromas has been much over

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exaggerated. And the taste part, the solid part, if you

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want chemically, has been very much, let's say, almost

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neglected. We talk about sweet and sour and bitter

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as tastes, but not as substances. So this argument

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about the tongue, right, where the receptors are on

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the sides and then the front and in the back, and each one represents a

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different, like you just said, bitterness, sweetness, saltiness. Or is it

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that the tongue has receptors all over that can

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detect virtually everything? Certainly the tongue does much,

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much, much more than we always thought. So there are also much

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more receptors and types of receptors that we

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believed, but that is also a part of tasting.

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And even there the personal influence starts because

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we don't have similar saliva flows, we don't have the same

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amount of receptors. So there can be many, many

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already personal deviations there. For me,

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you can even go beyond and even go back

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further to the product and analyze the wine,

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analyze the fluid. I say, okay, what is in

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there? And then you are with it, with the acidities

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and the sugars and the alcohols and many other things that

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are all measurable and are all real. My

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contention is always you pour 20 glasses out of a bottle,

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you give those to 20 people, and 20 people will respond

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differently on the wine, but the wine is the same. So I would

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like to talk about the wine and I'd love to talk about what the.

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Can we find words, can we find concepts? Can we find

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a new way of addressing what the wine is so that

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we have, let's say, a shared

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knowledge on what it is and then we can relate to the

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differences between people. Okay, so that, that addresses a huge

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part of the descriptions of wine. Like for instance, the

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generation, the Gen Zs right now, even the millennials at the time

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were talking about changing the language of wine. My father

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spoke a different language when they came to describe one than I do. And you

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know, he's part of the Michael Broadbent generation. And so, and I, I

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always found this fascinating that people would change the language to the extent that

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I'm not going to know. You know, if you, if you change it for the

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Gen Zs, then the baby boomers are not going to understand what you're talking about

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and it's just going to continue the same cycle. But you're saying,

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let's get back to the wine itself and find the things

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that are obviously part of the wine itself and not

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a human description. Let's make it much more simple as well.

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We've made. The whole taste world is hugely complicated

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by these conventions and by culture. And we

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use, well, very extensive

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descriptions for wine or food or dish or a chef.

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So suppose we could bring that back to really easy to understand

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concepts that people can really to. That's my, my

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idea. Do you think that the way it's handled today,

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and it's obviously a very slow moving needle here to do these kinds of

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things? The wine's been around for thousands and thousands of years,

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but do you think that that adds to the aristocracy of

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wine? Why? Why People are intimidated by wine because of these descriptors

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and because of the periodicals and the ratings and the things that

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people don't understand when they read it. Oh yeah.

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And then we also make it very complicated by making it very regional.

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So now if you encounter new wine from a new

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region unfamiliar to you, then the traditional

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view is that we should look into the regions. You'd go there, know the

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river, the mountain, the, the air, the ground, the soil,

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whatever the grape, varietal. Suppose that could all be, let's

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say, abolished. Say, of course, it's nice to go to

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Slovenia or to go to Armenia,

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I don't know where, but, but that's of course beautiful. But

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suppose that it wouldn't be necessary to do it and just be.

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Stay with the basics. This is a contracting coating,

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drying wine with a certain intensity, no matter where it comes

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from. How did you get started to. When. When did this

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question enter your mind? As a chef, you're preparing

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foods, you're, you're realizing the balance. You know, there's that

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book, Fat Salt Heat, which has been a great book for me

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to cook with because it helps me understand the chemistry of, of the

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interactions of food. But when did this come about in your mind? Like, I

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gotta. I gotta figure this out. I took over my father's restaurant.

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It had a Michelin star, and I

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was trained, let's say academically, and I had an

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MBA in business administration. And then my father said, well, if

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you want to take over the restaurant, it would be nice if you also understand

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the kitchen. So then I did some working periods

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in, at the two and three star restaurants in France

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and in Belgium. And that really opened

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my mind, opened my eyes for the complexity of, let's say,

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the kitchen and what it is that real chefs do.

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And I really love that. I never was a professional chef

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as leader of the kitchen, but I call myself a

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gastronaut. So I try to understand what's happening on the plate and in a glass,

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et cetera. And when I took over the

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restaurant, then I got intrigued by these questions. Why do we serve this

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wine with this dish? My father also did his own wine

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imports and he had a lot of relations with very famous also

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wine people in France. So I inherited

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this, this culture. And then

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in practice, I asked real questions

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on why. And then nobody could answer those. So I

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started be intrigued by that. Then I by

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chance got involved with an academic research of

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Wageningen University on taste. Really? And

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that developed new concepts and new words. And those words,

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well, they took. It took a part of my life

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away, or at least gave me a new life. Yes, an academic

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life with research on taste. And I

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kept on going, trying to figure out how it works. And ultimately

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that developed into a model. And in a PhD

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and in professorships and in writing books about that and all that. It

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started with asking real questions on real, real

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subjects. Why and how does the public,

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the public restaurateur, not restaurant, you know,

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the average person that attends a restaurant, how do they receive this

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concept other than you're going to present a meal and you're

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going to present a wine, and these are scientifically paired. Is that

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what the concept is? It's scientifically grounded, but

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it also has this human touch, of course. So it's not

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A plus B is C. So now you're happy?

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Well, that's the other way around. I try to understand. My mission

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is understanding our liking. So if you

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have, if you understand liking much better, if you have a deeper understanding of

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liking, then you use science

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to be able to satisfy the guest in his experience.

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So let's say

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the mission is liking and understanding. Liking, you know, that was part of it. To

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answer the other question. How, how, how do people receive

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it? People receive it very well because what they receive and

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what they experience is, hey, I have, I, I've often heard that

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I have the same wine at home or I drink this often, but here

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it tastes better. And that's the, I think the greatest compliment that you can

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get that people experience that

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the quality of what they are drinking is

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different and better than they normally experience.

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Let's peel that back a little bit because when I spent, I spent 35 years

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in the direct to consumer market and, you know, spent a lot, sent a lot

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of people to Europe and you get a phone, I, I would get phone

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calls literally from somebody sitting at the tableside at the Parthenon

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having a, you know, trattoria glass of wine and

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ask me if I can get it for them. And then they come home and

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they receive it, same vintage, same bottle, everything. And they say it doesn't taste the

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same. And you know, my, my, my street

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language comment would be that's because you're not, you know, in front of the Parthenon

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on vacation with a whole set of stress relief

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and the kids aren't pulling on your shirt tails trying to do their homework.

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You're trying to get the same experience or bring it back. And

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certainly how does that, what have you peeled

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back in that regard? How does, how does that change

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what you actually think you're tasting? Or is that the million dollar question?

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Well, trying to think it's here to give you a proper answer, it

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is maybe not what you think you're tasting. It's the, the,

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the, let's say the, the natural

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experience that is a result of doing

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things right and doing things right. Starting with the real

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basis, what is it? I mention three,

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three concepts in mouthfeel. Drying,

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contracting and coating. The same

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words can also be applied to dishes. And where the magic

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happens is when the taste profile of a

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beverage, wine mostly and a dish have,

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have something in common. So in mouthfeel there should

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be, let's say, a similarity in

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contracting, coating and drying. So if the dish is more contracting, then the

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wine needs to be contracting. If the dish is coating, then the wine needs to

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be coating. We can talk a little bit more about what contracting, coating

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and drying is later. But the magic happens when there is a huge

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overlap in what the profile, the taste

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profile of the wine is and the taste profile of the dish.

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And if that overlaps and works together, then you get a

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harmonious feeling and you're. Your

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brain accepts that as a very harmonious combination.

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And harmonious combinations are also proven by

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neuroscience and neuro aesthetics. If

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harmony happens, then the brain likes that. So

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the response of liking happens in the brain when

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there is an experience of harmony. And this harmony theory is the

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basis of good caring. So it's going to be

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my ability to receive this concept.

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So you, you have scientifically taken these elements and we'll talk

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about those now actually, and we have 20 people in

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the room. You're serving the same dish, the same wines. You must be

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getting 20 different conversations out of that same

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pairing. But to you there's a scientific basis for

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it. Yeah, well, what, what happens is of course, that as soon as

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we first agree on what the beverage is, the

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wine is, is more contracting than coating, has

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a certain intensity and has a fresh flavor,

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flavor, aromatic flavor structure. So the

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aromatics and intensity and mouthfeel are the three

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dimensions that we talk about. What 20 people can agree on

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is okay, I agree that this is a contracting wine. I

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agree with the intensity and I agree this is fresh. Then

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on the liking side you get preferences. Some people

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like contracting more than coating and some people like

253
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trying more than coating. So the preferences of

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people are easily distinguishable. As soon as

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you have also concepts for to understand

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tasting much better. As soon as when I know from

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somebody we did that with taste test that we had

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an app to be able to

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figure out the preferences of people. If I know

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of a certain person that he has, let's say, a

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liking for coating, then I can a find

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a beverage that's coating for that person and I can also chew

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my dish more to coating to get a better experience. For

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that person who likes coating more than contracting, it becomes

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managerial if you want. If you have the good concepts,

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if you have concepts that are relatable, easy to understand

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and objective, then it becomes possible to mix

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to, to find the right balance between what a product has, what a

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combination gives and what a person likes. It's very interesting because

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I know exactly what my wife likes and I don't know why. And this. And

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I think what you're getting to is that we can start to define why that's

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the case. Because I can, I could hide

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a Syrah through the bottle label so she doesn't know that she's trying

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to taste Syrah, but she will catch me virtually 90% of the time when

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I PO a Sarah based wine, whether it's from France or central

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coast of California. She turns her nose up at it.

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I have another friend who is a Bordeaux varal girl

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as well as I know what kind of residual

279
00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:24,380
sugar she likes, at least, you know, broad spec, you know, broad range

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of what she likes. And she will quite often text me

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a image of the wine list at a restaurant, particularly in New York or something

282
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saying, what do I like here? And so what I'm getting out of this conversation

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so far is that you're going to be able to define for me the next

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level of that, of my understanding of her what she likes. Yeah,

285
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because I just did it through experience and pouring and pouring and

286
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,080
pouring until it, until it didn't happen. How do, how do chefs respond

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to this concept? I mean, they're in their kitchen, they're preparing these meals.

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They're. Some are high end, some are, you know, three star Michelin stars,

289
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one star or whatever. And are they

290
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responding to the chemistry of this or are they saying this is all sort

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of, you know, gray area? In my experience,

292
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they're responding very positively. I have this

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academy for customer me, which is a training institute for chefs and

294
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for sommeliers. And in our country, this

295
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vision on food has been very widely adopted.

296
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So the books that I write are used in education, are used

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widely. So there are many also in the three star

298
00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:36,250
and two and three star high end Michelin, but also aspiring

299
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new restaurants that are using this, this new vision

300
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all over the place. So it's very, very easy to apply in

301
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practice. And as soon as the chefs become

302
00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:51,770
two chefs later with something else as well. But as soon

303
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as they see that what this offers to them is an

304
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understanding to making people happy, then of course

305
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they would be silly not to use it. But of course there is

306
00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:06,110
a type of chef, and that is the extra

307
00:19:06,110 --> 00:19:09,830
remark that needs to be made in regard to chefs more so than

308
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:13,390
to sommeliers. But in chefs there is a category

309
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that has very strong beliefs. And of

310
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course they keep on standing for their long

311
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belief for a long time in my experience. And we have seen

312
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:25,910
beautiful experiences with,

313
00:19:28,510 --> 00:19:32,190
let's say the long standing three star in Holland is

314
00:19:32,190 --> 00:19:35,910
the libre. And Therese, the sommelier

315
00:19:35,910 --> 00:19:39,670
owner, is a very early, let's say,

316
00:19:39,670 --> 00:19:43,350
pupil of me, of my school, really. And

317
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:46,190
her unfortunately deceased husband

318
00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:50,590
was also very fond of the idea. And they have applied it always

319
00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:54,290
and always said to their trainees and their people, go to

320
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that school and go learn that, because that really helps you in understanding

321
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the business. So that's been very much

322
00:20:01,970 --> 00:20:03,570
adopted in our country.

323
00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:08,609
I've seen it help also. I've done

324
00:20:09,410 --> 00:20:12,770
workshops in, for instance, in China, in Korea,

325
00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:17,410
and I see that the same vision is also applicable in other cultures

326
00:20:17,410 --> 00:20:21,010
as well. So, yes, it does

327
00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:24,410
work. I would love to see it.

328
00:20:24,410 --> 00:20:28,090
Maybe you can help me embroidering the idea and helping much more

329
00:20:28,170 --> 00:20:31,970
chefs on using this idea. Well, you prodded

330
00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:35,570
a lot of thoughts here, and I've studied food. One of my

331
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:39,330
favorite authors in America is Paul Friedman, who, oddly, is

332
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A professor, a PhD out of Yale, but in his subject

333
00:20:42,850 --> 00:20:46,180
of. Of teaching at Yale is medieval servitude.

334
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:50,220
But his passion is food in America, and

335
00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:53,860
he's written quite interesting stories, and I've read them all. Do you think then

336
00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:57,540
that the. The Po and the Toros and the Scoffiers

337
00:20:57,620 --> 00:21:01,380
understood this? Maybe not scientifically or chemistry wise,

338
00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:04,260
but understood it from the standpoint of preparation

339
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,980
and what felt good to them, what tactical, what tactile

340
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,240
references they had to make, and it just was part of their innate

341
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ability to cook. Yeah. I worked with travel for a

342
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while, so in my learning period, trouble was one of my. The

343
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,560
restaurants where I was able to work, and I know

344
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that from, from very personal experiences of all the

345
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great chefs, but also great winemakers, they do things

346
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intuitively well. They know what they need

347
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to do. And if I get one remark

348
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from chefs, some

349
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of the great ones, they often say to me, of course,

350
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you're right, but I have always worked like this. I

351
00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:54,940
think that's also a sign of a great theory. A great

352
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theory does not invent something new. It

353
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explains why things work. So the great chefs, they know

354
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,470
how things work. And now they have concepts, and now they have

355
00:22:05,470 --> 00:22:09,030
words, and now they have a theory that makes,

356
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:12,790
that makes it understandable. But that a wheel needed to be

357
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:16,510
round. It was not an invention. It, it was round before. Now we

358
00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:20,310
know that it turns well, if you will understand the metaphor.

359
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:24,750
It seems like that's, it's, It's. I didn't go ahead. I don't go

360
00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:28,550
up. It seems like that's bridging the science

361
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:32,820
and the art in the sense of, you know, you, you probably had it

362
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:36,060
a thousand times. You have a meal and you go, wow, that just didn't work.

363
00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:39,820
You know, that just didn't. That didn't happen. And I think that's

364
00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:43,180
just lack of, of understanding what you're, what you were

365
00:22:43,340 --> 00:22:47,180
digging deep into, figure out. But it's one of the unifying factors.

366
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:50,860
And this comes from. I told you, my daughter's a

367
00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:53,980
French chain baker. She's done. She's worked at Michelin star restaurants

368
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,520
and she has an earnest

369
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requirement for in her soul to please people

370
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,400
for the hospitality of. Because I think the only way you can get in the

371
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,600
restaurant business and in the wine business, frankly, is that

372
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innate desire to see a smile on a face

373
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,080
or to wow somebody's palette, of course. And you probably.

374
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,040
That's the fuel of our profession. Yeah, I mean that's just the way it works.

375
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,540
And. And I'm just wondering how, if you see a difference between

376
00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:28,620
the truly earnest chef who wants to grab

377
00:23:28,620 --> 00:23:32,140
onto this idea because they want to increase the hospitality

378
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:36,300
and their ability to please people, it's exactly that.

379
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:40,100
If I'm playing, if I downplay it, then I didn't invent something new.

380
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:43,740
But what I did do is find the concepts and

381
00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:47,580
find words to help people with. And it's very

382
00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:51,290
gratifying that it really works. But in the process, of course,

383
00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:54,810
we have encountered many things that we needed to understand better, that we

384
00:23:54,810 --> 00:23:58,530
wanted to understand better. So the theory, if you look at the sequence of

385
00:23:58,530 --> 00:24:02,010
books, the first book appeared in 1998.

386
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:06,170
And if I look back at what I wrote in 98

387
00:24:06,970 --> 00:24:10,810
and what I'm currently doing is making the second writing

388
00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:14,650
the second edition of the Essence of Gastronomy, which is my book in

389
00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:17,850
American English, that was from Taylor Francis, it was

390
00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:21,770
published in 2013. So now we are 13 years

391
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:25,650
further and even then the new version is

392
00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:28,490
going to be add new things, new insights, new

393
00:24:30,250 --> 00:24:33,890
ideas. It keeps on growing, it

394
00:24:33,890 --> 00:24:36,410
keeps on. It's a matter of

395
00:24:37,210 --> 00:24:41,010
refining and iterations and refining and

396
00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:44,730
retasting and retrying, getting the

397
00:24:44,730 --> 00:24:48,050
real details. Also on point

398
00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:53,690
in French. This is just a really. So. So this is

399
00:24:53,690 --> 00:24:57,250
basically what we've been doing for a long time. Is this just a really

400
00:24:57,250 --> 00:25:01,050
slow. I mean wine is slow wine. Right. Like I tell

401
00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:04,570
people, it's once a year. I mean, so it's just a really slow industry. And

402
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:07,970
then if you want to change something, it's even harder, it's even slower.

403
00:25:08,290 --> 00:25:11,970
But is the same apply with what you're doing? The scientific research,

404
00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:15,760
the chemistry, the biology in trying to define and get

405
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,400
more granular into the reasons these things exist is it just.

406
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,040
It's just a slow process. Very, very

407
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,760
credifying as well. I bet it is. We were in Journey as well

408
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,480
because I the best excuse of it all to. To keep on tasting

409
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,680
and I would keep on drinking all kinds of wines and having all kinds of

410
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,280
foods and going to all kinds of restaurants because it's all study. Right. So

411
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,510
it gave me a beautiful Life as well. It is an amazing industry

412
00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:45,390
on both sides and I've been very honored to be

413
00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:49,150
part of it. My father dragged me into it originally and, and I

414
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:52,910
thank him every day. Passed away a few years ago for, for involving me

415
00:25:52,910 --> 00:25:56,710
in this. And it's, it's an interesting subject.

416
00:25:57,030 --> 00:26:00,790
My father, my father did the same. I did the same to my children.

417
00:26:00,790 --> 00:26:03,750
So my children are also now in, in the business.

418
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:06,950
It's a three generation there.

419
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:11,990
That. Fair enough. You know, one of the. I wasn't able to do that because

420
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:16,070
I was in retail, effectively retail. And that, as you know, what's

421
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:19,190
happened in the wine trade is, is clobbered and we were fortunate to get out

422
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:22,950
of it when we got out of it. But, but we have passed on

423
00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:26,270
to our children the love of, of food,

424
00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:30,030
gastronomy and wine. And they all get it and

425
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:33,270
that's great. And one of the greatest trips we've ever made

426
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:37,430
was to France when my daughter graduated from Alain de Casa's pastry school

427
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:41,250
in Isanj. Just going to that graduation, even though it

428
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:44,730
was a trade school sort of thing, it was, it was just a one. Just

429
00:26:44,730 --> 00:26:48,570
that experience alone to be able to travel to France and go to this little

430
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:52,050
village and watch this. And it was, it was fascinating.

431
00:26:52,770 --> 00:26:56,370
But we were in Palermo not too long ago. I started to make it sound

432
00:26:56,370 --> 00:26:59,330
like a travel log. It's not why I'm doing this. But we were in Palermo

433
00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:03,010
not too long ago and the psalm there, he was a

434
00:27:03,010 --> 00:27:06,850
Serbian and this guy loved what he did. And I

435
00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:10,370
ordered a bottle of Anantori wine. It's a super

436
00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:13,850
Tuscan type thing and of course complimented this

437
00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:17,090
thing. But the way he loved making the

438
00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:20,929
presentation of the wine to me, he

439
00:27:20,929 --> 00:27:23,970
knew I knew what the wine was already. He understood that this is what I

440
00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:27,770
did for a living. And I filmed him and, and took pictures

441
00:27:27,770 --> 00:27:31,070
of him because the guy just loved it

442
00:27:31,550 --> 00:27:35,110
and wanted to make sure that I had the greatest experience. And I've. I've

443
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:38,830
referenced this many times as the greatest presentation of psalm that I've

444
00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:42,430
ever seen through all kinds of restaurants. How much

445
00:27:42,430 --> 00:27:44,990
of that is part of your

446
00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:49,390
expression of the, the gastronomy, the presentation of the food?

447
00:27:49,390 --> 00:27:52,350
Like, what's the concept? Eating with your eyes first sort of thing. I

448
00:27:53,470 --> 00:27:57,230
just happen to have written a, a section

449
00:27:57,230 --> 00:28:00,110
on that today for the new book.

450
00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:04,830
It's certainly a part. And I often refer to.

451
00:28:04,830 --> 00:28:08,270
Of course, this has everything to do with tasting and tasting experience.

452
00:28:10,270 --> 00:28:14,110
Now refer to it as, let's say the one

453
00:28:14,669 --> 00:28:17,950
irreplaceable and irreducible factor.

454
00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:23,150
The wine is a wine combination is a combination. It needs to be right.

455
00:28:23,150 --> 00:28:26,780
And if done right, the chances are that people will like it. But

456
00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:30,380
then the extra, the wow. The experience is

457
00:28:30,380 --> 00:28:34,220
of course done in a restaurant. And the way I see it is that

458
00:28:34,940 --> 00:28:38,100
if you look at the world and development in the world and AI and the

459
00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:41,660
technology and the development of technology, it gets all

460
00:28:41,660 --> 00:28:45,500
very, let's say mechanical and automated. And

461
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:49,180
I believe, and truly very strongly believe that

462
00:28:49,660 --> 00:28:53,380
hospitality and also gastronomy

463
00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:57,220
will have always, always, always need this human

464
00:28:57,220 --> 00:29:00,820
touch and this human experience to make things really happen.

465
00:29:01,060 --> 00:29:04,820
Whatever you do in science can be right and can be

466
00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:07,860
very functional. I'm very happy that I do it. But

467
00:29:08,419 --> 00:29:11,900
of course the original experience with a great

468
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:15,460
sommelier adds something to the

469
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:19,180
experience that makes it memorable, makes it special, makes

470
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:22,950
you yearn to go back to Palermo, make

471
00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:26,430
sure you earn, to take a flight, go, go to Sicily again. Right? So

472
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:30,590
that's not the why that does that. That's not altinorio did it.

473
00:29:31,150 --> 00:29:34,190
It's the experience. It's the very special personal

474
00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:38,270
experience that makes gastronomy

475
00:29:39,230 --> 00:29:42,430
wonderful and memorable and

476
00:29:42,430 --> 00:29:46,230
experiential and the one thing in life that cannot

477
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:49,920
be automated and cannot be well, or a few other

478
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,640
things. But those are things

479
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,200
that are really valuable to the human experience. And I think

480
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,560
that our senses and everything that's sensorial

481
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,920
should really be kept. We should stay close to

482
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,600
our sensorial connection to the world. And if that gets

483
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,120
lost, you get really, let's say dependent on

484
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,430
gadgets and dependent on goes and

485
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:19,510
meters and things that tell you what and tell you how,

486
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:23,030
then things, a lot of things get lost. And I really

487
00:30:23,270 --> 00:30:26,870
very strongly believe that we should guard what

488
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:30,710
makes life really valuable. That's an excellent

489
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:34,750
way to put it. And I can apply it to my

490
00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:38,550
business. The metrics of social networking we did, I mean we are

491
00:30:38,550 --> 00:30:41,310
in marketing, we are a marketing company. Even though I sold the greatest product in

492
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:44,910
the world, I was a marketing company, let's just face that part. But my job

493
00:30:44,910 --> 00:30:48,470
was to make people happy about their experience with wine and

494
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:51,910
the Internet. In metric driven marketing,

495
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:56,190
all the key performance indicators and return

496
00:30:56,190 --> 00:30:59,270
on ad spends and all this stuff is completely

497
00:31:00,150 --> 00:31:03,750
dependent upon a proper experience by the client.

498
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:08,070
In other words, if the experiences aren't good by the client at their

499
00:31:08,070 --> 00:31:11,590
home, which is, I was a home, I delivered wine to people's homes,

500
00:31:12,170 --> 00:31:15,850
then those numbers would change. They would be, you know,

501
00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:19,530
they wouldn't be good numbers. And if, if I did my job properly, then

502
00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:22,810
these numbers would reflect that I'm doing my job properly. And so

503
00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:26,770
when my father, that's my dad in the picture there in the gray over my

504
00:31:26,770 --> 00:31:30,410
shoulder here, had his wine shop, this patch

505
00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:34,090
was Les Ami Devant, which was, you know, a very large

506
00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:37,940
organization in America with full of enthusiasts. And the

507
00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:41,620
reason I bring this up is they created the experiences for

508
00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:45,380
their wine shop customers or their restaurant customers. And

509
00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:48,900
I believe that we had this evolution of marketing and

510
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:52,300
Internet and subscription model and all this stuff and the

511
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:56,100
consumer just got barraged and tired, particularly of low end

512
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:59,580
wines that were coming from Valencia, Spain and bottled in a fancy

513
00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:03,420
label. That really the experiential part of wine and food is

514
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:07,120
what's going to drive this industry back into its, in its proper

515
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,960
position because it's, we know it's suffering, we know that there's issues with

516
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,200
the sales volume. And how much of this do you think is

517
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,120
generated by or dependent upon the generations?

518
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,440
I'm a baby boomer, my daughters are millennials. Gen zers.

519
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,840
No one can figure out, have you seen

520
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,200
generationally, since you've been doing this for so long, a shift in how people perceive

521
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,000
all these things? Not really. But I am also of course in a very

522
00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:37,290
select bubble of the

523
00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:40,930
world being in a high end gastronomy, etc. As

524
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:45,170
one of my life, one of my life is running a five star

525
00:32:45,170 --> 00:32:47,890
hotel and great restaurants. So

526
00:32:49,010 --> 00:32:52,690
that's my practical life. So in that I don't

527
00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:56,530
see there much difference. Young people also want to experience,

528
00:32:56,530 --> 00:32:58,850
have great experiences, they also want to enjoy

529
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,240
and they also want to have a great feeling even. And

530
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,200
I think that is something that's really

531
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,520
challenging for our trade. Prices get up,

532
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,320
wages get higher, price get more

533
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,400
expensive. So the price value

534
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,000
ratio is unfortunately moving

535
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,640
towards prices get higher and the experience stays the same.

536
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,690
So the, the experience of price value goes down.

537
00:33:30,970 --> 00:33:34,770
And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that

538
00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:38,490
we face in the industry and

539
00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:42,410
one of the biggest cases as well for being very

540
00:33:42,410 --> 00:33:45,610
careful that the experience and the hospitality,

541
00:33:46,490 --> 00:33:49,930
the reason that you really know what you're doing is good.

542
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:54,090
The foundation, the scientific foundation of what you're doing is right.

543
00:33:55,410 --> 00:33:59,090
That will really help you to stay within

544
00:33:59,250 --> 00:34:03,090
let's say the bracket of great experiences. And that's

545
00:34:03,090 --> 00:34:06,610
very important. You're a marketeer so you know that

546
00:34:06,930 --> 00:34:10,650
the value people experience is related to the price that

547
00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:14,410
people pay. So if the price goes up, then the rest needs to,

548
00:34:14,410 --> 00:34:18,250
at least if the rest stays the same, it's not good enough. So

549
00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:21,950
we need to find a way to increase the experiences.

550
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:25,630
You know, it's interesting. I have coffee every Tuesday morning as

551
00:34:25,630 --> 00:34:29,350
this is. And for some reason today the subject came

552
00:34:29,350 --> 00:34:33,150
up a little bit. Three star Michelin restaurants, etc, and

553
00:34:33,150 --> 00:34:36,950
we've been to Louis the 15th a couple times in our career as

554
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:40,790
a husband and wife to visit Monaco during the Grand Prix. And

555
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:43,310
again, travel log stories. I don't know why I keep saying that,

556
00:34:44,270 --> 00:34:47,990
but one of the questions I gave this. That's an expensive time

557
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:51,540
to go there. I know. Actually, I have to tell you,

558
00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:55,420
we've been there three times just because, yeah, it seems expensive on the

559
00:34:55,420 --> 00:34:58,500
surface, but the entertainment value is so high

560
00:34:59,220 --> 00:35:02,780
that we took a group last year and they just had a blast doing it.

561
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:06,420
Right. They weren't very happy about the €700 meal at

562
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:10,060
Louis the 15th, but that's okay. The reason I

563
00:35:10,060 --> 00:35:13,700
brought up was I said that's exactly, exactly what I

564
00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:17,380
mean. Well, that experience, like I don't do it every night,

565
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:21,140
obviously even once a year, I don't do that. But, but to have that

566
00:35:21,140 --> 00:35:24,700
experience and tell the story is worth it to me.

567
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:28,340
Yeah, like the French Laundry. That's what. Yep. So

568
00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:32,220
here's a question for you. And I asked the question this morning and no one

569
00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:35,420
knew the answer. You may or may not know the answer, but the most expensive

570
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:39,140
restaurant that I know of, that I've been to would have been

571
00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:42,860
Louis the 15th. Around that, you know, French Laundry is

572
00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:46,300
probably about the same, a little bit less, but it's right here in Southern

573
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:50,050
California. And it's based on what you're saying. It's based on

574
00:35:50,050 --> 00:35:53,570
the experience because it's called 21 Royale

575
00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:56,930
or Royal. It was Walt Disney's apartment

576
00:35:57,490 --> 00:36:01,210
and it's $1,250 a person to attend this restaurant. Now

577
00:36:01,210 --> 00:36:05,050
you want an experience, right? It's food pairing and wines and all that. But

578
00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:08,770
it's also Disneyland and you're in Walt Disney's apartment.

579
00:36:08,770 --> 00:36:12,290
And you don't think. There are people that think that 1250 is a

580
00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:16,060
nominal fee to pay to be able to eat in this apartment and then

581
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,580
go to Disneyland at the same time. And I find that phenomenal.

582
00:36:19,900 --> 00:36:23,740
Have you heard of that before? Have you heard of the similar, similar things.

583
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:27,420
Similar, similar experiences in the world are,

584
00:36:27,980 --> 00:36:31,740
for instance, Ultraviolet in Shanghai from Apollo.

585
00:36:33,020 --> 00:36:36,700
It's very, let's see, an immersive gastronomic experience.

586
00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:40,780
So with all kinds of colors, music and the table changing

587
00:36:40,860 --> 00:36:44,600
in color and everything changes all the time. Alchemist

588
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,320
in Copenhagen, very expensive as well, does exactly the

589
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,480
same thing. So these are restaurants that, that understand

590
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,680
that the multi sensory experience, it's called.

591
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,080
So involve more senses with the experience

592
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,560
is. Is a very important part of having the

593
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:07,520
great experience. So taste cannot do it by it. Taste cannot

594
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,700
do it on its own, you know, on its own. It needs the eye, it

595
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:14,260
needs smell, it needs the comfort feeling. It needs the experience

596
00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:18,260
of being somewhere on a unique spot. So

597
00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:21,980
that, that all adds on to, let's say, the great and big

598
00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:25,060
experience. And then it's worth the price, ultimately.

599
00:37:25,860 --> 00:37:29,300
Can that be dumbed? Dumbed down is probably the wrong word.

600
00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:32,820
Can that be expressed at a level that

601
00:37:33,380 --> 00:37:37,170
a regular American, a regular Dutch person, a regular Frenchman can

602
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:40,450
afford and still have this? Obviously not the

603
00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:44,250
magnanimous experience, but a gastronomical

604
00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:47,970
experience that's that you write home about. Oh, yeah, I'm pretty

605
00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:51,530
confident that you could. It's doing things right to start with.

606
00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:56,410
I believe that the one thing that hasn't been done yet is.

607
00:37:57,210 --> 00:38:01,050
Would be a great idea to, to, to. To. To figure it

608
00:38:01,050 --> 00:38:04,890
out, how it could be done is to use, let's say, for instance, and

609
00:38:05,850 --> 00:38:09,290
give people the opportunity to relate

610
00:38:09,850 --> 00:38:13,010
that you can relate to the preference of the person. So there's kind of an

611
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:16,570
app. You answer some questions and then, you know, from that,

612
00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:20,610
as a professional, you know some more about the preference of

613
00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:24,330
the person. And then you could enter the restaurant and then

614
00:38:25,050 --> 00:38:28,890
you get a special, let's say, amuse bush, your first

615
00:38:29,290 --> 00:38:32,920
appetizer that is really made for you. So it's not a

616
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,720
generic thing that everybody gets the same thing. But now we created something

617
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,480
because you answered some questions. And I got the idea that I know

618
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,120
a little bit more about your preferences. So I relate that

619
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,400
to my profession. To be able to cook something

620
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,720
that helps you, that's for you. You

621
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,320
know, of course, great hospitality is for you. It's not a service which is for

622
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,160
everybody. So therefore, to make things very,

623
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,860
very, let's say, personal, modern technique could do

624
00:39:02,860 --> 00:39:06,380
that. So then you. You're not cooking anymore

625
00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:09,860
like the, the best alba, because as

626
00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:12,340
Kofier said, this is the way you should cook.

627
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:17,340
Then you create the pash melbar for soap for

628
00:39:17,340 --> 00:39:20,820
somebody. This is your version that you would like. How

629
00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:24,660
interesting. Let's, let's peel that back a little bit. Because in the wine world,

630
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:29,070
when I was really active in marketing,

631
00:39:30,270 --> 00:39:33,990
a couple of clubs started throughout the country here, and they were giving

632
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:37,630
you five questions. Do you salt your food? Do you like mushrooms? You know, these.

633
00:39:37,950 --> 00:39:41,670
And then it would make recommendations on the wine based on those answers. This

634
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:45,470
is prior to AI and so I put that, I put

635
00:39:45,470 --> 00:39:49,230
that questionnaire to the test many times and it always gave me the

636
00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:53,040
same wines because it really wasn't doing anything. And I thought, how

637
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,880
ridiculous. But now with the advent of AI and the fact it can,

638
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,480
you know, it can manage billions of calculations a second

639
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,320
that might have teeth, that might have. It may be able to

640
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,000
settle on some character. Yeah, but what it needs is a

641
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,720
solid foundation. What you do need is, let's say, a

642
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:16,440
solid objective in relation to taste. If

643
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,140
you don't have that and mushroom is just mushroom and salt is

644
00:40:20,140 --> 00:40:23,780
just salt, then it starts to float.

645
00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:28,180
But we did that with beer. We created something,

646
00:40:29,060 --> 00:40:32,780
a test for beer preferences. So

647
00:40:32,780 --> 00:40:36,260
you ask people some questions on their preferences

648
00:40:36,980 --> 00:40:40,820
and then these questions give you a selection

649
00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:44,660
of beers that fits to your preference. The same you could do with wine.

650
00:40:45,690 --> 00:40:49,530
If you are in, let's say a good

651
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:53,090
supermarket and you are well, good

652
00:40:53,090 --> 00:40:56,850
sourced wine shop, then you are baffled

653
00:40:56,850 --> 00:41:00,490
by the labels and by the colors. And

654
00:41:00,490 --> 00:41:04,090
there's rose and white and red. When they're all chateaus and all

655
00:41:04,090 --> 00:41:07,850
great wines and all caravan and they're all etc. Etc.

656
00:41:08,330 --> 00:41:12,090
So you have non exo as if you're

657
00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:14,530
not into wine. You've not a clue

658
00:41:15,730 --> 00:41:19,410
what you should buy. So you end up paying a price

659
00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:23,250
and selecting by price or country or grape or

660
00:41:23,250 --> 00:41:27,010
something that is, let's say, not really telling you much except for

661
00:41:27,010 --> 00:41:30,450
the price you have to pay that. So suppose you will be in front of

662
00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:34,050
that big, let's say, arrangement of

663
00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:37,760
all these bottles and then you will be able to say,

664
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,600
okay, now this is our selection here. Now ask

665
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,360
me answer some questions on your preference. What are you looking for?

666
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,200
Is it for a special occasion? What's your preference? What are you going

667
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,720
to have? What do you like? Generally simple questions, but

668
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:56,480
also easy to answer questions. This must be done, let's say

669
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,480
in 20, 30 seconds. And then

670
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,000
you get your selection and say okay, that one, that one and

671
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,600
that one fits your preference. This is 5 and this is 15 and this

672
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,320
25. So take a pick. But we are pretty certain

673
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,240
that these ones will fit your preferences

674
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,720
best that could be done. Now we have a solid

675
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:22,280
base. It's not about color, it's not about grape variety, it's not about region.

676
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,720
It is contracting, coating and drying, some kind of a mix.

677
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,400
Your answers give me impression that you also have a mix of your

678
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,520
preferences. So this is the wind that will fit you.

679
00:42:33,290 --> 00:42:37,050
So we can do much more personalization now that

680
00:42:37,050 --> 00:42:40,770
we have the base. This is very underdeveloped. It

681
00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:44,290
would be lovely to develop this

682
00:42:44,290 --> 00:42:47,850
and to make this big. Because as people

683
00:42:48,730 --> 00:42:52,450
have not fully adapted them, there are still many people are not

684
00:42:52,450 --> 00:42:56,170
aware of this new theory. But as soon as you start grasping,

685
00:42:56,330 --> 00:42:59,930
oh, wow, but if this is possible, then that is also possible.

686
00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:04,570
It's like I often compare it to color. We know

687
00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:08,370
exactly, but really exactly what color is. So the

688
00:43:08,370 --> 00:43:12,130
pigments and the red. So you know exactly that your

689
00:43:12,130 --> 00:43:15,730
Bordeaux red of your jacket, you

690
00:43:15,730 --> 00:43:19,330
can make that exactly the same color on paper, on an airplane,

691
00:43:19,330 --> 00:43:23,130
on a glass. Because we know exactly what the composition of your color is.

692
00:43:23,530 --> 00:43:27,300
Because we know that exactly, we can replicate it. As soon as

693
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,100
I say, well, Paul here has some kind of a Bordeaux

694
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:34,900
color jacket. I really love that jacket. And give me some kind of jacket.

695
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:38,380
And I cannot really say what the color is, everything

696
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:42,179
stops. I suppose that we are much further now in

697
00:43:42,179 --> 00:43:45,900
taste, and we do understand what it is. You could also make this

698
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:49,420
happen. It's a reversal.

699
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:53,230
It's an opposite. And at the time that we started the Wine of the Month

700
00:43:53,230 --> 00:43:56,910
club, the idea was that we would taste everything

701
00:43:56,990 --> 00:44:00,790
that we can get our hands on, and then we would present them to you

702
00:44:00,790 --> 00:44:04,230
as proper examples of that wine. Cabernet from

703
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:07,910
Sonoma, French Bordeaux, whatever. And if you didn't like

704
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:11,230
it, then we least gave you the

705
00:44:11,230 --> 00:44:14,550
parameters that you do. Go to the store, don't get a

706
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:18,350
Sonoma cab, because you just. This was a good example, and you

707
00:44:18,350 --> 00:44:21,710
didn't like it. And so you can probably argue that you're not going to like

708
00:44:21,710 --> 00:44:25,470
many of them unless they're dramatically different. And so, but here, this

709
00:44:25,470 --> 00:44:29,190
is. This is a proactive version of that same concept, is the

710
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:32,510
reverse of it. And that you just create the things that we know you're going

711
00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:36,030
to like. This. I wrote down this note here. So much of

712
00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:39,430
today's culinary experience is based on the

713
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:42,550
concept you are what you eat, eats. And

714
00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:46,930
it's so obvious when you visit a restaurant that uses proper

715
00:44:47,810 --> 00:44:51,410
core goods, you know, whether they're biodynamic or organic, I'm not

716
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:55,010
sure that matters so much, but that, that there's complexity

717
00:44:55,170 --> 00:44:58,970
and character and, and detectable

718
00:44:58,970 --> 00:45:02,690
character in the chicken or in the sauce you make or

719
00:45:02,690 --> 00:45:05,970
in the, the, the vegetables that they're buying.

720
00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:09,930
And to say that it's organic isn't enough. Right. There's lots of

721
00:45:09,930 --> 00:45:13,120
organic foods that are bitter and hard to eat. How much does this play into?

722
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,280
Like, is that just the baseline that we have to have? We got to start

723
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,440
with good ingredients, just like you have to start with good grapes

724
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:23,680
to then develop what your. Your study is? Yeah,

725
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,040
yeah. It's. That's about flavor, composition, I call that.

726
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,040
And the flavor design process. There's a chapter in the book about that as well.

727
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,080
And then, of course, selection of your ingredients is number one. And

728
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,660
then you have a certainty, because yours, your

729
00:45:38,660 --> 00:45:42,020
base, defines which you can do right? If you buy

730
00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:45,700
lousy products, you can never create a great meal. So

731
00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:49,860
your daughter in pastry must have good butter. She has. She

732
00:45:49,860 --> 00:45:53,540
doesn't have good butter. She cannot make a great croissant.

733
00:45:54,259 --> 00:45:58,100
So everywhere it's the same thing. If you have a

734
00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:01,860
great grape, you can start thinking of making a great wine. If you don't have

735
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:05,220
great grapes, everything else you can make a mediocre wine you can do

736
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:09,590
because you can with the material you have. And sometimes you have in

737
00:46:09,590 --> 00:46:13,390
larger years. But then you're limited

738
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:17,070
by what the material gives you. And then you

739
00:46:17,070 --> 00:46:20,830
have transformation and you have composition, and then you have elevation, I

740
00:46:20,830 --> 00:46:24,630
call it. And then ultimately you have an end product that needs to

741
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:28,150
be packaged and designed so that the person likes it.

742
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:31,670
So there's a whole. But also that is a process that

743
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:35,450
we have really now really well under our nose.

744
00:46:35,530 --> 00:46:39,290
We know what is the stage, what can be done, what you should

745
00:46:39,450 --> 00:46:43,170
do to get certain results, which you should not do if you want to

746
00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:46,810
prevent certain things, et cetera. As soon as you

747
00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:50,610
have everything organized. Now in this new book, the

748
00:46:50,610 --> 00:46:54,450
second edition of Essence of Gastronomy, I need to finish the

749
00:46:54,450 --> 00:46:58,250
manuscript in this month, and then Taylor Francis is going

750
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:02,010
to make the book. So I hope that this year, somewhere this year, this book

751
00:47:02,010 --> 00:47:05,690
will. Will appear on the market. And that book will really,

752
00:47:05,850 --> 00:47:09,610
if people understand it well, will really be, let's say,

753
00:47:09,610 --> 00:47:13,210
the new baseline of gastronomy. There's no other book that describes

754
00:47:13,210 --> 00:47:16,330
everything so fundamental and so, so, so

755
00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:20,290
let's say particular that that was my final question

756
00:47:20,290 --> 00:47:23,570
since we're running out. We ran out of time, but was going to be, when's

757
00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:26,690
the book coming out? Because I need to get a hand, a copy of this

758
00:47:26,690 --> 00:47:30,070
so I can develop this concept and have more

759
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:34,110
intelligent conversations about it. So you think by the end of the year

760
00:47:34,110 --> 00:47:37,590
it comes out by the end of the year. I have the editor

761
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:41,390
this week or next week to talk about that, how long

762
00:47:41,390 --> 00:47:45,230
the process will take. But I'd love to, when the book is there, to

763
00:47:45,230 --> 00:47:48,710
get you, to send you a copy and to have you,

764
00:47:49,350 --> 00:47:53,070
let's say, evaluate the book and

765
00:47:53,070 --> 00:47:55,990
to read through what this new

766
00:47:56,890 --> 00:48:00,130
science is really about, I'd love to do it. Astronomy, for me, it's the science

767
00:48:00,130 --> 00:48:03,650
of flavor and tasting. And we sort of discussed this before. I forgot to turn

768
00:48:03,650 --> 00:48:07,290
on the camera. You know, there are tomes

769
00:48:07,290 --> 00:48:11,050
of cookbooks, and we talked about scoffier a little bit. You

770
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:14,290
know, it's kind of funny. You're talking about. I was talking about Monaco. We were

771
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:18,090
at a viewpoint for the race. Long

772
00:48:18,090 --> 00:48:21,770
walk up some stairs to get back into sort of town. And I

773
00:48:22,090 --> 00:48:25,290
stood there for a second, and there's a plaque on the wall of this house

774
00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:28,650
and. And it was a scoffier's home. I felt I was kind of honored to

775
00:48:28,650 --> 00:48:32,330
be staying when he was chef. Chef. Yeah, that was

776
00:48:32,330 --> 00:48:34,490
really. He was chef of the.

777
00:48:36,090 --> 00:48:39,130
My. My father did the Dutch translation of the.

778
00:48:39,930 --> 00:48:43,730
Really? Wow. Interesting. You know, French cookbooks are hard to follow. We

779
00:48:43,730 --> 00:48:47,570
have good tradition and loving Escofia. We

780
00:48:47,570 --> 00:48:51,370
have a 1962 edition that my mother gave me that she got as a gift.

781
00:48:51,370 --> 00:48:53,980
So that's. That's what I get to play with. It's been an honor to have

782
00:48:53,980 --> 00:48:57,420
you on the show and. And talk about this. And I can't wait to get

783
00:48:57,420 --> 00:49:00,300
a copy of the book, whether you send it to me or I get on

784
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:03,940
Amazon, whatever it is, and. And then reconvene after I read it

785
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:08,260
and dig a little deeper. Yeah, like to do that would be lovely. Thanks again

786
00:49:08,260 --> 00:49:11,900
for the time today and to this evening for you. And my morning just

787
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:15,380
started, but really, really fascinating stuff. Yeah.

788
00:49:15,860 --> 00:49:18,580
Thank you for hosting me. Thank you. Cheers.