Uncorking Wine Fraud: Maureen Downey on Counterfeits, Crime, and Blockchain Solutions

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One of the things about wine fraud, if we're going to tackle this problem,

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what we need is oversight through the supply chain.

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Because the wine market is so opaque and there's so much gray market

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and black market, then that's how fraud gets in.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks

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with Paul K. Hey,

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welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today, but to

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have a conversation with Maureen Downey up in the Los Altos Hills. From

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introductions in just a moment. Wine Talks, of course, available iHeartRadio, Pandora, et

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cetera, wherever you hang out for podcasting, they have a listen to a conversation

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I just had with John Wilkinson of Bin to Bottle.

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If you've ever been interested in starting a brand, starting a winery.

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He's part incubator, part processor, for

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instance, the whole brand Prisoner started his

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facility. Great conversation about the industry and the

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entrepreneur side of the industry. Also some great,

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great conversations about Armenian wines that we recorded a few months

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ago out in Armenia. So have a listen to that. But now, while we're here

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today, we're here to have a conversation with Maureen Downey, the preeminent

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authority and consultant on fake wine. Yes, there is

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such a thing. Some people think I sold fake wine. I'm just joking.

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But. But welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. We had a little trouble connecting,

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but that's great. I'm glad you're here. Next time we're up in that area, we're

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going to stop by and say hi and taste some wine and continue this conversation.

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Because, like your friend, if we have a glass in hand, right, it is, you

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know, and I started this thing because I hate the

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swirling and sniffing shows. I think that propagates the aristocracy

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of wine. And that has nothing to do with it. You know, we enjoy

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doing it and pontificating, but most people don't understand what we're talking about.

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So I like to tell the stories. But these are, I think, what

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you've been doing. This is incredible stories. But before we get

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to that, I want to continue this conversation since listeners heard

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your. Your Master of Wine story.

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I had applied on the airplane. I told Nova this.

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I was flying at home from New York, and I said, hey, do you want

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to be a Master of Wine? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? I can do

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that. And, and I applied online and it, you know,

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and I did, actually, the, the essay was good. They liked my essay, but they

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hated my tasting notes. But there's a whole sort of

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understanding of what the Master of Wine

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wants from you, right? Absolutely. I mean, there's.

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It's not a free form. Do it your own way. And

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it's interesting, especially, I think, as an American. So I was in the

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program for many years. I did very well on

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the tasting. I never got that great on the essays, but I

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focused on the tasting. I wanted to pass that first. And I'm a very good

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natural taster. I actually took the advanced Master

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sommelier degree at 23, the advanced master solenier exam

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at 23, and Fred Dame said I was one of the best natural tasters

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he had ever seen. And he moved me to New York

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in 1996, and that's how this.

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My whole journey started. So I'm a good natural taster. But,

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you know, tasting wine is a language, and

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it's just like learning any other language. Like, I can't go to Russia and talk

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about that blue car over there with a. With a flat tire

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because I don't speak Russian. I can see it. We can all see it. But

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if you can't, you're not using the same terminology and the same,

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you know, sentence format and all of that, then somebody isn't going to understand

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you. So I think, you know, following the WSET

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and then the MW or the Master Sommelier

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programs, they really kind of.

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They bring you along so that you're speaking the same language that other

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professionals speak. The interesting thought you made.

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And it's not why we're here together, because I

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want to talk about fraud in the wine business, but it's an

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important concept for listeners to understand the difference between the Master

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Psalm and the Master of Wine and the diploma W set.

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But you said something before we started

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the show, and that was, there are a lot of Masters

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of wine that I'm not gonna say don't do anything, but they don't ever

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have a preeminence in the industry. And it's an incredibly

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difficult degree to get or certification. But.

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And that's why I wonder. And this is why my comment when I started this

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conversation was sort of like, depending why you're getting into it now, it's so

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arduous, you probably can't get into it without the complete passion

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and get through to it without the passion and the need to do

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it. But at the same time, when it's all said and done is what you

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do with it and the information you learn that matters.

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Well, and for me, I think it's even a little bit. It's more

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than that. It's because there are. I'VE read some articles recently that, you know,

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oh, you can. You can get the knowledge someplace else. You don't have to take

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these courses. And I would strongly

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disagree with that, with that

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sentiment, because the. The value of

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going through these courses is not necessarily in.

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In the education that you get. It's in the connections that you get. It's in

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the people that you meet. It's in the relationships that you can establish.

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And, you know, for myself, for example,

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you know, with all this fraud stuff, people not known

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that I had been passionate about fraud and speaking out about it

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in

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2004-2005-2006-2007,

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when Rudy did get arrested in 2012, people wouldn't have known.

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Oh, my God, she was right. We need to talk to her.

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And I wouldn't know. All these big producers in Bordeaux and doors

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in Burgundy wouldn't open to me. So I think

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being in the program and making the connections. And as

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you were just recently in Northern California and you

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interviewed Nova Khadimotre, who's a master of wine, winemaker,

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consulting winemaker, and a dear friend of mine. I wouldn't

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have Nova as a great friend if it weren't for the MW program.

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So I'm very grateful that I did

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study that. Now, you know, I had an

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opportunity to continue on the MW program

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or deal with the fact that Rudy just got arrested. Rudy

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Cornell, on this counterfeiter, whom I had been saying for 10 years was

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counterfeiting. And I chose to build that

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instead of studying more. But, you know, I think for a lot of people,

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they think that somehow getting the MW means they're gonna. They're

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gonna suddenly just have be overwhelmed with offers and money

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and opportunities, and that's not necessarily the case. And

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today especially, there's this new class of

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people coming through who are coming from other professions.

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They're attorneys. They're this. And they want a new career.

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Wine seems to be. We get. And not on the MW side,

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but we seem to kind of be the dumpster for all other industries. Like, people

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that either fail out of other industries or they get

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bored. They're like, oh, I want to do wine. Wine is fun. But

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it's actually a career, and it's actually work. You know, but there's

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this whole new. Right. Industry of people who.

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They have learned everything, but they don't have

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any background in line. So I think that's really weird. Like,

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you could pass the test with no experience. And that's. I think

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that's totally strange. But it's very strange. And

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I'M the opposite. Even though I, you know, study a lot and read a lot

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of old books and have some fabulous time now, right now reading

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a book on Gertrude Stein and

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Hemingway's experience in Paris. And it has a lot to do with wine as

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well. But, yeah, that's true. I mean, some of these

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conversations I have on these shows with people that are educated in the wine industry,

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but they can't hold a conversation about what the wine industry is

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because it's more than just the fermented grape juice in

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a bottle. And maybe that's, you know, in fact, my

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conversation with John Wilkinson had been the bottle was nothing's really

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changed for 12,000 years on what's in the bottle. You know, maybe some

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technologies, but it's still fermented grape juice. But the business of wine

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is completely different and difficult and

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managed to manage. The reason I sold my company was it got.

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It just got too complicated for the

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size of my company to manage, to be able to produce a profit from

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it. Even though we were selling three to 400,000 bottles of wine.

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I sold 20 million bottles of wine in my career. I mean, yeah. And it

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just started to get too hard. One of the things that I find fascinating is

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that even the most successful winemakers

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are at their heart, farmers. That's what they are. Right. Because the wine

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is made in the vineyard. And so now I've got a blockchain

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technology that is anti fraud, inventory

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control, track and trace. Try explaining that

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it's. It's difficult. Well, let's talk about that, because I just, I

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had a podcast. I won't mention any names. I. It's an

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old friend of mine in the industry. You know, we started this industry

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in the 70s. And I reposted the podcast recently and I

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got an email from a gentleman, I think he's

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in la. He sells in rare wines

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for sellers, resells them for people that have them.

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And he was offended. I reposted this podcast

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because he said this gentleman is known for his fraudulent

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wines, his counterfeit wines. I'm not, I don't want to mention any names, just. It's

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just a fascinating subject. And when I brought it up

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over the last two weeks that you're going to be on the show to people,

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they're like, what do you mean? I said, oh, there's serious stuff now, either you

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knew who Rudy was, and that's obviously the most obvious

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story, but it's been going on a lot longer than that.

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Oh, Pliny the Elder wrote about counterfeit wine in 70 A.D.

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oh, well, that was really. Yeah, yeah.

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His friends, he considered himself rather a connoisseur. And his

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friends were waxing and waning over a bottle of falernia, which was the most popular

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wine at the time. And he was writing what idiots

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they were, basically that they didn't know that what they were drinking wasn't real

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Falernia. Yeah. That's fascinating. 70 AD

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so this is, it's not a new problem. It's not going away. It's getting

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worse currently. So people

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are shocked at the size of the market. So when I talk about wine products,

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I don't just talk about counterfeits because you have to talk about fraud. So you

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have to talk about, you know, the sale of the resale of stolen

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wine, the resale of wine that has been through hurricanes and fires.

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So resale of salvage bonds, you know, bootleg

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spirits. But to give you some perspective, the World

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Health organization states that 25%

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of all alcohol consumed in the world is illicit.

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25%. That's the world Health Organization.

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So. Wow. Yeah. You're talking about

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dispirits, you know, fake, fake Pappy Van winkle, fake,

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whatever. 25%. That's phenomenal. It is

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phenomenal. And it's. But if you really, if you pay attention to the news, it's

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not because there are, there are news stories twice or three

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times a week in the wine trade. You know,

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10,000 bottles seized here, you know, 50,000

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bottles seized there. And it's, it's a combination of high end and

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lower end. You know, I would invite listeners to Google the

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Sassakaya frog and watch the carbonieri,

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you know, redo. So organized crime have gotten involved and they're doing

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this at a grand scale. Wow. And they get digital printers and they,

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they recreate all the anti fraud. They make the tissue paper,

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they make the wooden boxes, they make the, the

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bands that go around the wooden boxes. I mean, we got high end stuff. There

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was a, there's another one that's Bordeaux bottling line

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in China. And there's a Bordeaux bottling

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line of a, of a Bordeaux. You know, it's not a major, it's

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a pity crew. But you see this, and it's a Chinese bottling line of

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bottles are perfect. Wow. Because they have the bottles.

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Bottle manufacturing or bottling of the juice. Yeah.

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We have no idea what's in it. Yeah.

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So before Rudy, whichever. For the listeners, the movie Sour Grapes

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and Rudy Kern, I always get his name on, but he's my neighbor. My

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neighbor. He's my neighbor here. He's we're in Arcadia. And I remember

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they weren't drinking with him. No, no. And I just. Fascinating

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story about. And I'm a huge fan of, for instance, the movie Catch Me

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if youf can and Frank Abbott story. And I love hearing his story because, I

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don't know, maybe I have this. This romantic view of

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being able to do it to the extent of just to fool somebody. Not just

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cheat anybody, but just be able to fool it and everybody. Not people don't know

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that Walt Disney's career started in doing that. He was a fraudulent

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war relics vendor. Really? Yeah. He would

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make distressed war helmets and

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sell them as real interesting. Okay,

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so before Rudy became a movie in the story,

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was it that. Were people aware of this and, you know, were

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auction houses you diligently seeking, you know,

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proper goods and not. Well, no. And. And many of them are still not

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so. Rudy learned from a man named Hardy Rodenstock.

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So this is kind of fun. Hardy Rodenstock's real name was Meinhard

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Borka. He was a German music

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producer turned counterfeiter, wine

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extraordinaire. So he started making old and rare wine in the 80s

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and selling it. And the sad thing is

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that a lot of the benchmark tasting notes from

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maybe some of the biggest critics in the world wore

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bottles that were made by

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Hardy Romanstock. Really? And then Rudy Cornelan

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came along and he started making old and rare wine. The interesting thing

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is that Hardy was. Is somewhat narrow. Hardy made mostly

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00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,400
Bordeaux, lots of Yuccan, like all these. The oldest bottle of Yukim in

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00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,880
the world. I took a bottle of Yukim back to Yuccam and Pierre

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Lerton was like, yeah, so this bottle was made

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00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,280
a year after Marie Antoinette lost her head in a year before my house was

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built, you know, and it's. It totally wasn't

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real. Yeah, right. But people paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for it.

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So. So Harding rode the stock, I think, you

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know, kind of influenced Rudy. And then in the wake of the Rudy

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Cornell and he was arrested in 2012, he was

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able to make him sell wine for about 10 years

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because he was funded by Acromero Condit and John K. Farm.

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And these documents are available on wine

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fraud.com, our website. That's a resource for people

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where you can actually see people giving Rudy million dollar loans through the auction

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house to come up with these wines.

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Knowingly do that, or they thought Rudy was a rare

250
00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:35,890
and special guy who was able to source these things. Well, if that's

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the case, why wouldn't you Just buy a million dollars worth of wine for Rudy.

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Why are you doing it through an auction house? Don't know. It's a

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00:15:42,850 --> 00:15:46,650
good question. Right, Right, it is, because then you're going to go buy at

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00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:50,410
auction and pay the 30% to the auction house. Why not just get

255
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a million dollars worth of wine from Rudy? So, not if it made sense,

256
00:15:54,130 --> 00:15:57,970
but. So anyway, in the wake of Rudy getting arrested in 2012,

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I started saying that Rudy was counterfeiting in 2002. I was the

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only woman in the industry. I started in auctions in 2000. They only

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became legal in New York in 1996.

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And Christie's and Sotheby's started in 1998.

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00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:15,870
And Morell and company might have started in 98 as well,

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00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:21,790
auctioning wine. It only

263
00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:25,510
became legal in 1996. The first auctions in New York were in

264
00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:28,920
98. What about Michael Broadbent? And, you know,

265
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,800
that's London. Hugh Blind and so that's London.

266
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,520
Cuba Line was in Boston, but in New York, they weren't.

267
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,200
They were not legal. I didn't know that. Yeah. So I started in

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2000. So I was kind of at the very beginning of the industry,

269
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and. And I started to find, you

270
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,760
know, when you line bottles up and one of them looks different,

271
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I have a little bit of OCD and a bit of a photographic memory. So

272
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:59,050
when things are slightly different, they stand out to me.

273
00:17:00,410 --> 00:17:04,010
I do wooden puzzles as a hobby. Right. So I'm a

274
00:17:04,010 --> 00:17:07,370
puzzle person. I try to find patterns and things.

275
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So these things started to stick out. There was really nobody to

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teach me about it. So I had to go and

277
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learn about glass from glass experts and paper from paper experts and

278
00:17:19,850 --> 00:17:23,559
started to put all this stuff together kind of forensically and learned

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about Hardy Rodenstock. And so I started to say that Rudy was

280
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counterfeiting in 2002. He wasn't arrested

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until 2012. And that was a very lonely 10 years.

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And I'm not getting upset. Sorry. It sounded like I

283
00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:43,279
got shoved out there. I didn't. And there are a lot

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of guys that really don't like me because it's big money.

285
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So, you know, I stuck to my guns and I, I. Because I knew it

286
00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:56,050
was right. You know, it's that little, you know, Sister Catherine

287
00:17:56,050 --> 00:17:59,330
on this shoulder and Sister Angela on this shoulder saying, do what's great.

288
00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:03,250
So, you know, that's interesting. Stop there for a second. Because

289
00:18:04,290 --> 00:18:08,090
in Frances Deaconspiel's book about. About fraud and deceit

290
00:18:08,090 --> 00:18:11,770
and murder and all that in the wine business. Yeah. You know she

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talks about that there wasn't really an awareness.

292
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,360
Well, there's an awareness, but there was no interest in prosecution back in those days

293
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,400
for alcohol at the federal level. There's still not. It was the

294
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,800
Koch brothers that sort of pressed the issue with

295
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Rudy and whatever else they did to bring it to the forefront.

296
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And she also mentions that, you know, the prosecutor,

297
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,880
you know, isn't happy with himself when they prosecuted Joe

298
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,630
Franzia for faking, you know, white zinfandel. And you're

299
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:46,270
saying today that's still the case, that the feds don't have a keen interest

300
00:18:47,470 --> 00:18:51,310
in pursuing this because they're pursuing other stupid things, but whatever. In the

301
00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:54,590
state of California. Well, they're pursuing. Yeah, exactly.

302
00:18:55,550 --> 00:18:58,350
They're going after bullshit and letting looters out.

303
00:19:00,510 --> 00:19:03,950
In the state of California, wine is important enough to our GDP

304
00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:07,670
that we have an FBI agent. So I've been working with the

305
00:19:07,670 --> 00:19:11,270
FBI agent. She's. We have a new one recently

306
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:14,230
out of the San Francisco office, works in

307
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:19,230
Santa Rosa, and we have a home in Sonoma. So I do a lot of

308
00:19:19,230 --> 00:19:23,030
training and stuff up there. We've worked on a lot of cases. John Fox

309
00:19:23,670 --> 00:19:26,310
put a couple of. John, Josh, Carmen, all. We put a bunch of people in

310
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:30,070
jail. But one of the really frustrating things for us is that there is a

311
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:33,630
pedophile who owns. Well, he does shell

312
00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:37,390
companies, but who owns one of the biggest storage and transport companies

313
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in the United States of wine. Not allowed to be in the wine industry

314
00:19:41,250 --> 00:19:44,450
as a convicted pedophile. And

315
00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:49,650
he was operating without a license in California,

316
00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:53,570
in St. Louis, and maybe in Chicago, New Jersey.

317
00:19:56,530 --> 00:20:00,090
In the state of California, selling wine without a

318
00:20:00,090 --> 00:20:03,570
license is a misdemeanor. The FBI

319
00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:08,220
could not get the California ADC to go

320
00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:12,060
after this guy for illegally selling wine because it's a misdemeanor.

321
00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:16,700
They don't care why. They care. But illegally selling wine

322
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:20,380
without licenses, because there's lots of those guys around here. Yeah,

323
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:24,940
yeah. Which means, you know, the next time that you're. That you're pissed

324
00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:28,580
off that you hit a pothole, thank a counterfeiter because he's not paying the

325
00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:32,060
taxes that are due. You know, this guy actually got

326
00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:35,420
arrested in St. Louis. They raided his office in St. Louis,

327
00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:38,490
arrested him, arrested his wife and arrested his CFO,

328
00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:42,930
and he owed millions in back taxes to St.

329
00:20:42,930 --> 00:20:46,690
Louis. So that's selling. He was selling one, you

330
00:20:46,690 --> 00:20:50,250
said transporting one, and he sells one and he imports one,

331
00:20:50,650 --> 00:20:54,170
and he was doing all the unlicensed. So

332
00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:58,170
it's. What amazes me is that the only thing that the government goes after.

333
00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:01,930
And I actually spoke at the national conference of State Liquor

334
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,920
Authorities a few years ago. The only thing they care about

335
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,440
is shipping regulations because the money

336
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,080
is behind all of the money, is the lobbying money. So

337
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,600
they don't actually care about the law. It's just the distributors who care about

338
00:21:17,999 --> 00:21:21,080
keeping that distribution dollars. It's the

339
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,880
WSWA doing that. Yeah. It's so frustrating to me that

340
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,570
I. And so what I said to these guys is, look, you

341
00:21:28,570 --> 00:21:32,410
know, California, you're. I know you're out there, you know, go

342
00:21:32,410 --> 00:21:35,410
after all of these people who are illegally selling wine

343
00:21:36,130 --> 00:21:39,570
because they're shipping it. I mean, if you. If you care so much about shipping

344
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:43,330
to miners, go after the people who are totally

345
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:46,970
breaking the law, not the winery that just wants to get wine to their

346
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:50,610
client and state xyz. So, yeah, it's frustrating to

347
00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:54,130
me. It's a. It's a. Well, we've been dealing with this forever. My

348
00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:57,630
wrapping this company up here. My wife had to shut down

349
00:21:57,710 --> 00:22:01,550
32 different tax returns to different states. And as you already

350
00:22:01,550 --> 00:22:05,390
know, some states charge the tax by the gallon, some by the leaders, some by

351
00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:09,110
the sip bottle. And it's just ridiculous to try and calculate. And just the effort

352
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:12,950
to say, hey, we're not doing it anymore, has become a nightmare for her to

353
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:16,430
figure out. But she's a licensed cpa, and she wants to do it. Right.

354
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:20,770
It's funny you say that, because I have in my. I said I

355
00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:24,130
studied for 35 years every Tuesday tasting wine, and I had every

356
00:22:24,690 --> 00:22:28,330
conceivable type of vendor in the store, Right? Yeah. Winery

357
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:31,170
reps. I had supplier reps. I had Southern in here. And of course, all the

358
00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:34,690
big guys and all the bottom fishers. And. And. And, you know, now that you

359
00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:38,170
bring it up, I know of a couple bottom fishers that were not

360
00:22:38,170 --> 00:22:41,250
licensed to sell me wine. And

361
00:22:42,210 --> 00:22:45,820
one of them actually went off and got a. A

362
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:49,380
tasting room so that he would be licensed. I thought that was rather noble of

363
00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:52,780
him to actually, you know, prepare to pay the taxes. Yeah,

364
00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:56,740
yeah. But then I. When I. This building I'm in right now

365
00:22:56,740 --> 00:23:00,260
is licensed as an O2, as a 9, as a 12, a 17, 18, a

366
00:23:00,260 --> 00:23:03,820
20. And I'm trying to market the building with these licenses,

367
00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:07,700
and one guy came to me, goes, hey, I may have a guy. He's been

368
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:11,340
selling Bordeaux for years, you know, black market.

369
00:23:11,340 --> 00:23:14,720
I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, yeah, he's got a list of

370
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,400
clients he's selling all the classified gross and the Grand Cru Burgundies.

371
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,640
And maybe he wants a license. And I'm thinking myself,

372
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,640
how annoying. Right, Right. And

373
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,760
here's your wife doing 32 tax returns. Right, exactly.

374
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,520
So that's what, so

375
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,320
that is one of the things that I've figured out about fraud. One

376
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,060
of the things about wine fraud, if we're going to tackle this problem,

377
00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:43,780
what we need is oversight through the supply chain.

378
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:48,460
Because the wine market is so opaque and there's so much gray

379
00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:51,980
market and black market, then that's how fraud

380
00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:54,740
gets in. So,

381
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:59,300
you know, over the last 20 years, everybody that's had an idea about,

382
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:03,140
you know, their anti fraud solution has sent it to me.

383
00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:07,140
So I've gotten to do a lot of good market research and poked holes in

384
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:10,700
it. And I finally figured out that, you know, you can't just put a

385
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:14,380
sticker on a bottle and think that you're safe. What you have to do, the

386
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:18,060
producer has to be able to watch that bottle as it moves through the

387
00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:21,699
supply chain, as does the distributor, so that we can

388
00:24:21,699 --> 00:24:23,700
eliminate some of this gray market,

389
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:28,580
you know, activity. And I know that I'm, you know, I'm not going to be

390
00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:32,300
popular with the gray market and I'm totally fine with that because if I

391
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,980
can provide transparency to the producer and to the

392
00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:39,580
consumer, those are the two parties that I care

393
00:24:39,580 --> 00:24:43,020
about. You know, all the guys making so much money in the middle because they

394
00:24:43,020 --> 00:24:46,860
worked as a sommelier for two years and happen to know a couple rich

395
00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:50,620
guys who are selling their wine like they shouldn't be making all the

396
00:24:50,620 --> 00:24:54,460
money. You know, the producers should be, should be able to

397
00:24:54,460 --> 00:24:57,300
be making the money. The licensed

398
00:24:57,730 --> 00:25:01,570
wholesalers and distributors. And then the consumer should know what they're

399
00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:05,170
getting. I mean, one of the problems with, with the John Fox

400
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:09,050
problem at Premier Crew, that's

401
00:25:09,050 --> 00:25:12,610
one of the cases that I worked on with the FBI. John Fox,

402
00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:15,810
even back when I was at Maryland Company in 2000,

403
00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:20,730
John Fox would put bids in at the auction and he

404
00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:23,810
would send out emails as though he already had those bottles in hand.

405
00:25:25,470 --> 00:25:29,150
The auction hadn't even happened yet. Wow. So I knew that guy was

406
00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:32,190
dirty. And then he sent in line when I was at Zacky's and half of

407
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:35,990
it was counterfeit. So I knew that guy was dirty. And then by the

408
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:38,510
time I moved back to California in 2004

409
00:25:39,550 --> 00:25:43,110
and was a part of a group called the

410
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:46,350
Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts and we get together and have dinners. And

411
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:49,750
so I got to know the people in this group in person really well and

412
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:53,300
a bunch of them had wine they're like, yeah, you know, I've got lots. You

413
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:56,700
know, I bought futures five years ago, and they're not here yet. And I'm like,

414
00:25:56,940 --> 00:26:00,780
yeah, you're not getting futures. I mean, the reason that you give somebody money for

415
00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:04,140
futures is so that you have assured provenance. Right?

416
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:08,220
Well, John Fox is out there on the secondary market, bottom of the line.

417
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:11,740
That's not what you paid for. So if we can

418
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:15,900
provide oversight through the supply chain so that the

419
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:19,740
guy who buys futures actually gets, you know, wine of good

420
00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:23,180
provenance, then we've solved part of the problem. I think

421
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:27,260
it's interesting because I look, I sold wine that

422
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:31,100
was ten to twenty dollars. My great collection of Grand Cru

423
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,900
Burgundies and classified growths here. But I had clients over the

424
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,580
years who asked for those wines and. And I would get

425
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:41,500
them prices and they would go, I can get it cheaper.

426
00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:45,340
And I kept telling them, like, but you don't understand. This is from the sort

427
00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:49,000
of. Like, for instance, if somebody wanted Lafitte, it would come from

428
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,800
the family, that direct connection with. With the organization,

429
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,800
with the. I forgot the name of the family now, but.

430
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,800
Or there's a vendor here who

431
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,239
all his wines in cellar are from. Directly

432
00:27:04,239 --> 00:27:07,880
from the winery, Right? Yeah, you can go find the stuff cheaper.

433
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,720
But, man, you now that. You now that it's.

434
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,280
You're exposing how. How prevalent it is. I didn't realize it was as big as

435
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,800
it is. So I think about 5. 5.

436
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,720
My number is 5. Michael Egan number is 10% of fine

437
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,280
wine is counterfeit. A lot of it happens at the lower end. So

438
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,240
here is the. Shaveault is the name of my solution.

439
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:33,800
Shea Consulting is the name of my company. Shea Scratch for seller.

440
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,960
So the Shay Vault is a Web3 solution that we can implement

441
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,640
either at the producer or in the secondary market with one of our authenticators,

442
00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:44,980
who we now have all over the world. And

443
00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:49,540
what it does is we put the information in a blockchain ledger

444
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:53,220
is created. So now you go online searcher,

445
00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:56,940
and you see that there are 10 bottles of this 82

446
00:27:56,940 --> 00:28:00,500
Lafitte listed. Well, the vendors who

447
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:04,300
have shavel bottles, unless they're

448
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:07,220
vendors on my blacklist and they're not allowed to use my system

449
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,160
like Acker, there'll be a little URL

450
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,200
and a potential buyer can go on and they can click on that URL, they

451
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,440
can see the blockchain secured ledger of not only

452
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,160
authenticity, but provenance, because it'll show you. If you go

453
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,960
on shaveault.com, you can see one of These ledgers, it'll show

454
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,240
you that the vault was purchased from

455
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,400
Chateaune Estates by Fred Dame or by name

456
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,940
Confidential. On this date. It was sold at Zacky's auction on this

457
00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:40,700
date, this lot purchased by Maureen Downey. Now, Maureen

458
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:44,380
Downey is selling it through K and L, you know, on this date. And then

459
00:28:44,380 --> 00:28:48,220
if the person buys the bottle, that the ledger gets transferred

460
00:28:48,220 --> 00:28:51,460
to them so that we have this, this ledger. Now

461
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:55,420
on Wine Searcher, if you have 10 bottles and

462
00:28:55,420 --> 00:28:58,740
four of them are in the shave alt and six of them are not,

463
00:28:59,460 --> 00:29:03,030
the four that are vaulted are going to be worth

464
00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:06,750
more because, you know, the authenticity and problems. So

465
00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:10,150
at that point, hey, if you want to gamble and you want to bottom fish,

466
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:13,910
go for it. But what I always say is that if you're spending,

467
00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:18,190
you know, $3,000 on a $5,000 bottle, you

468
00:29:18,190 --> 00:29:21,910
have not saved $2,000. You have probably wasted through.

469
00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:26,030
Because if you're getting a screaming deal, it's

470
00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:29,540
salvage, you know, it's listed.

471
00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:33,660
Yeah. So pay for. Pay for profit. And there will be a

472
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:37,420
stratification in the market. The people that want to pay my clients pay for

473
00:29:37,420 --> 00:29:41,140
provenance. I tell them because I, I do, I, I manage collections.

474
00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:44,980
I, I find offers and I tell them, if you want the

475
00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:48,780
cheapest wine, I'm not your girl. Right. Because I'm not

476
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:52,420
going to go for the cheapest. I'm going to go for. For top provenance. So

477
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:55,300
let's, let's talk about. I want to get into the, the blockchain stuff in a

478
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:58,740
second here, but I wanted to. I want to peel back some of the things

479
00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:02,500
I saw come across my desk over the years that you can probably

480
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:06,340
poke holes in. For instance, these 3D

481
00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:10,580
stickers, what do they call them for holograms, that they were putting on wines.

482
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,539
I was just trying to figure out. I had. I had one of my vendors

483
00:30:12,539 --> 00:30:16,380
actually, who was selling Chilean wines here, was like, oh, I became the

484
00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:19,540
rep for this, this thing, and here's the brochure. And I'm like, I still don't

485
00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:22,780
get it. That seems just as. As

486
00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:26,220
fakeable. Well, number one, it

487
00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:29,940
substantiates a counterfeit refill, because you could easily empty

488
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:33,740
that bottle and refill it and that with a needle. So if

489
00:30:33,740 --> 00:30:37,380
you've got a right, you know, you've got. Everybody

490
00:30:37,380 --> 00:30:40,980
uses Corbin now. Yeah. And there was a situation in

491
00:30:40,980 --> 00:30:44,220
Europe where there was this huge international ring

492
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:48,620
of hospitality workers who were

493
00:30:49,580 --> 00:30:53,140
putting their coravan and empty fine wine

494
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:56,780
bottles in with the laundry and then

495
00:30:56,780 --> 00:30:59,980
taking the laundry out, and somebody would Come around and collect the bottles. And they

496
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:03,780
refilled. They sold thousands of bottles on online

497
00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:07,380
auctions of refilled, you know, wine. So I consider

498
00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:11,060
that a cosmetic solution. That's also something. And I've

499
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:14,500
spoken with some producers who use it. You know,

500
00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:17,060
somebody could recreate that bottle tag.

501
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,800
And by the way, 5% of those tags get

502
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,160
scanned. 5, 5, 5%.

503
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,640
And if you are close enough to go like this,

504
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,040
it's too late. You already own that bottle. You already own the bottle.

505
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Right. So now that's a problem, not an investment. So

506
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,600
anything where you have to be in proximity to the bottle in my world is

507
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,160
not a solution. Anything that is cosmetic is not a solution.

508
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,640
Somebody in China, if they can recreate an entire bottle, they

509
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,760
can 3D print those bubble tags and make a million

510
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,520
Lafont montraches. And okay, 5% of

511
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,280
people will ever scan those things. Maybe they'll get caught, but they won't get

512
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,120
caught until they sell a couple thousand bottles. Right.

513
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,880
So I don't find that to be a robust solution.

514
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,120
It does not address the supply chain,

515
00:32:13,470 --> 00:32:17,070
it doesn't give the buyer any

516
00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:21,830
protection prior to purchase, and it

517
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:25,670
doesn't help the producer know who's drinking their wine. No.

518
00:32:25,670 --> 00:32:29,310
I couldn't understand it because I said, I don't know, this seems easily thing, but

519
00:32:29,310 --> 00:32:32,630
I love this. I did not love it, probably should hate it, but the idea

520
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:36,190
that you could corvette a thing, pour it out and refill it with

521
00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:39,230
whatever. And I went to a tasting that, a very high end tasting. It was

522
00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:42,790
all grunge, it was vertical. You know, we were supposed to

523
00:32:42,790 --> 00:32:46,430
guess what it was and where it was and all those things. And

524
00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:49,110
it was clear to me. This is interesting. So I want to ask you this

525
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:52,590
question. This was, I think the earliest vintage was like in 89 or

526
00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:56,350
87 and up to like 2015 and some random

527
00:32:56,350 --> 00:33:00,030
vintages in between seven different wines. The question amongst this group

528
00:33:00,030 --> 00:33:03,790
of aficionados who had these incredible sellers was,

529
00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:07,430
is this a vertical? And then what do you think it

530
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:10,970
is? And my experience taught me this was

531
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:14,570
clearly a vertical. And this is kind of interesting because if

532
00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:18,610
any of these wines were faked, there would have been some kind of

533
00:33:18,610 --> 00:33:22,450
anomaly in the sequence of wines. And it was clear to me when I was

534
00:33:22,450 --> 00:33:26,210
tasting them that these were the same winemaker from the same plots of land in

535
00:33:26,210 --> 00:33:29,970
the same general vicinity, and that these, the, the terroir

536
00:33:29,970 --> 00:33:33,530
differences were the only thing I was sensing. Yeah. So the winemaking

537
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,920
expertise was obvious. But I'm wondering if somebody

538
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,920
buys a fake Lafitte

539
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,600
have you ever heard of somebody saying, man, I opened this wine, it just didn't

540
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,440
taste right? Of course. So there, there's. Go back and

541
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,200
read John Capon's horrific tasting notes. I mean, those are littered

542
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,000
with counterfeit wines. And if there's one of two things that happen, one of

543
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,600
three things that happen. Number one, the counterfeiter intentionally

544
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,480
puts tainted wagon. So cork one.

545
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,960
Oh, use a little bit of cork and then. Oh, bummer. It's corked, right?

546
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,800
Bad won't bottle. Yeah, bummer. A lot of

547
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,240
times people chalk it up to a bad bottle. So that's why when I started

548
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:18,840
in auctions, this really kind of, it was exposed, because

549
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,600
before auctions were big in New York, people

550
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,360
would have a case of Petrus and they'd go down

551
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,200
and they'd have a bottle and they would be like, oh, my God, that's,

552
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,040
you know, that's amazing. The angels are singing. And then

553
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,880
six months later, they'd have another one and they'd be like, God, that's just not

554
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,720
so good. Must be a bad bottle, right?

555
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,920
And then they'd open another one, and it would be great. Well, what we noticed,

556
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,720
especially bottles coming from Royal Wine Company was if

557
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:52,440
you took 12 out, four of them were counterset,

558
00:34:53,809 --> 00:34:57,009
but nobody, collectors weren't taking them out and

559
00:34:57,009 --> 00:35:00,769
inspecting them. And, you know, maybe they'd take them out and rack them,

560
00:35:01,089 --> 00:35:04,769
but a lot of people just left them in the case. So what, what raw

561
00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:08,129
line merchants would do and what other people did. And there's a, there's a particular

562
00:35:09,569 --> 00:35:12,809
guy in LA that did quite a lot of this back in the day, I

563
00:35:12,809 --> 00:35:16,649
think. I, I Anyway, you know, they would

564
00:35:16,649 --> 00:35:20,340
take a full case, they would take, you know, four cases and turn it

565
00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:24,140
into six cases or eight cases. Well, the margins

566
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:27,380
suck in wine generally. So, hey, this is a great way to pad your margins.

567
00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:31,100
Right, Right. So it wasn't until we started putting these bottles up

568
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:34,739
next to each other, it would be like, okay, these three or these four don't

569
00:35:34,739 --> 00:35:38,540
fit. Now, when it comes to the taste with

570
00:35:38,540 --> 00:35:41,780
the old and rare wine, you know, I mean, one of the

571
00:35:41,780 --> 00:35:45,420
ridiculous things about the John Capon tasting notes was that he'd be like,

572
00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:49,460
yeah, you know, we tasted another mag of 1950 lafleur

573
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:53,740
from Big Boys Cellar. Tasted fourth time

574
00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:57,500
this month, consecutive notes. They didn't make that many mags. And

575
00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,860
by the way, I'm selling a bunch in my auction next week, so it'll be

576
00:36:00,860 --> 00:36:04,540
great. You know, it was totally a pitch to

577
00:36:04,540 --> 00:36:08,220
sell these counterfeit wines, but a Lot of times the

578
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:11,980
wines would be off. Now, what we did the other night, I have. There's

579
00:36:11,980 --> 00:36:15,220
a counterfeiter from Russia named Alexander

580
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:18,940
Ayugov, or he called himself Alex Anakin. And he got

581
00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:22,660
caught and he was counterfeiting Ramany Conti. And

582
00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:26,300
the packaging is brilliant. I mean, it is so good,

583
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:30,220
really. But he was caught. I have a bunch of his counterfeit bottles. And

584
00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:35,140
I've hired Ronan Saber, who's a master sommelier. He's

585
00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:38,700
the CEO of the European Corps Master Sommeliers

586
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:42,910
as the CEO for Shea Vault. And he. And we were up in

587
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:45,310
Napa and he was like, come on, let's open this, let's open this. And I

588
00:36:45,310 --> 00:36:48,990
had some winery friends and winemakers over and I was like, all right, fine.

589
00:36:48,990 --> 00:36:52,670
I'm like, you guys, you can open it, but it sucks. And so we opened

590
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:56,430
up an 04 Roman a Conti. And everybody was like, this is

591
00:36:56,430 --> 00:37:00,270
disgusting. So this guy was making them organized

592
00:37:00,270 --> 00:37:03,830
crime, making them in Russia, selling them in Switzerland,

593
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,080
you know, as four or six at a time out of. Out of his car,

594
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,520
or, you know, selling them to different people who would sell them to different people.

595
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,200
But they're so expensive. You don't need to have a strong supply chain.

596
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,280
You know, you can. Yeah. And still make tons of money.

597
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,800
So I think one of the things that Rudy did which made him different

598
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,280
was that he actually tried to make decent blends.

599
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,160
Yeah. But at the same time, you know, let's go back to the. To the

600
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,720
John Kate Monticey notes, you know, 1950 lafleur out of

601
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:38,520
mag, you know, tasted consecutively four times. They made six

602
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,120
mags the entire year. And he drank more than those. And he wrote tasting

603
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,440
nuts on more than those, I believe. And. Or he definitely sold more than those.

604
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,440
But how many people have really had that wine enough times to say, oh, yeah,

605
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,240
that's correct. And you don't open mags very often. So

606
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:56,920
that could seller Forever a 1945

607
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,090
Mouton that has lived this life.

608
00:38:00,490 --> 00:38:04,330
You take a bunch of 1945 Mouton that have actually lived in the Same box

609
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:08,170
since 1947 when they were put in a box. They're

610
00:38:08,170 --> 00:38:11,770
all going to be so different. They're like people now that they're 60 years old.

611
00:38:12,170 --> 00:38:15,890
You know, 60 year old triplets are not as similar as

612
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:19,650
60 year old as. As. You know, those triplets are when they're four days

613
00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:23,370
old, of course. Right, right. That's interesting. I don't think

614
00:38:23,370 --> 00:38:26,870
anybody has the palette. I really, truly don't think anybody has the

615
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:30,710
palate to truly be able to taste some of these

616
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:34,550
old and rare wines. Outside of a family

617
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:38,310
who produced them, you know, who has grown up. You

618
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:41,910
know, I think that Aubert Oflain and you

619
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:45,710
know those people at Romanee Conti who've been around that wine for so long,

620
00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:50,150
they would know what a very old Romanee Conti tasted

621
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:53,900
like. But most other people don't have that experience.

622
00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:57,980
So that opens up a door for counters. And that is why

623
00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:02,940
most counterfeiters today are not making olden rail wine.

624
00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:06,460
Because they don't want to have to get period glass. They don't want to have

625
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:09,900
to get. I mean the forensic stuff that we look at is

626
00:39:10,940 --> 00:39:14,780
what is the chemical composition of the paper? What is the chemical composition

627
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:18,380
of the glue? How was the ink applied? You know, is the

628
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:21,820
ink the correct chemical composition for age?

629
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:26,220
What is the capsule? Has the capsule and the bottle or. Excuse

630
00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:29,860
me, have the capsule and the label or the labels aged

631
00:39:29,860 --> 00:39:33,499
together? Right. Because a lot of times they'll age the

632
00:39:33,499 --> 00:39:37,180
labels and then put them on well, they'll be disparate between

633
00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:41,100
the pieces. So it's like, well it's like seeing a 65 year old woman, a

634
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,610
25 year old face, you know that there's been some work done. Right.

635
00:39:44,850 --> 00:39:48,610
There's a few of those around. Yeah, that's

636
00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:50,770
fascinating because you know, lead capsules from the day

637
00:39:51,970 --> 00:39:55,650
certainly cork was better, better off years and years ago

638
00:39:55,650 --> 00:39:58,690
than it is today. Well, and you got to get the right glass

639
00:39:59,810 --> 00:40:03,530
so it's easier to mass produce these, the newer

640
00:40:03,530 --> 00:40:07,330
bottles. So what kind of things would I prisoner?

641
00:40:07,410 --> 00:40:10,850
I mean, that kind of thing. Well, so a lot of the big

642
00:40:10,850 --> 00:40:14,520
counterfeits like in Asia are very, they're

643
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,840
entry level. But a woman was just arrested in the UK

644
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,280
for selling counterfeit yellowtail. The UK is a wash

645
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,440
and counterfeit yellowtail? Yeah. Why it's

646
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,120
349 or some. Either you make a whole bunch of $1

647
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,640
bills or you make a couple hundred dollar bills, I suppose.

648
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:36,240
But look, you and I know that a glass these days is $16

649
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,150
a case just for the glass, the carton. Then you gotta fake the

650
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:43,990
labels and all that's, you know, you could. And the juice has got to

651
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:46,990
be. It's gotta be something at 50 cents a liter or something. You gotta put

652
00:40:46,990 --> 00:40:49,830
something. Yeah, but I mean the people who are drinking this are drinking it at

653
00:40:49,830 --> 00:40:53,670
pubs and they, they aren't really paying attention. Although I think

654
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:57,990
it is amazing. I think in some cases those are. If you

655
00:40:57,990 --> 00:41:01,750
are a regular consumer of an entry level Wine.

656
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:05,510
I think that you would probably be able to notice the difference more than

657
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:08,630
somebody drinking a 1945 Mouton for the first time,

658
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:12,590
because you have a sense of. I would agree with that. I would agree with

659
00:41:12,590 --> 00:41:15,990
that. But if you're. If you're. Let's just take Yellowtail for a second. Even

660
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:19,030
Prisoner, which, you know, I have a hard time drinking it.

661
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:23,190
You know, if you throw a bunch of stuff in a bottle, most people aren't

662
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:25,910
going to know. They just say, hey, I'm drinking Prisoner. This is great. But let's

663
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:29,710
just take Yellowtail. I mean, you know, the Wink wines

664
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:33,060
and the Naked. Naked wines are 60 cents a liter.

665
00:41:33,060 --> 00:41:36,900
That's, you know, $3.60 or $4.50 a case.

666
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:41,300
You're not going to buy much cheaper than that

667
00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:45,740
to get it into the bottle to fake Yellowtail. And I think most people are

668
00:41:45,740 --> 00:41:49,460
not going to do Yellowtail Chardonnay and something from the middle of Spain. I

669
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:53,300
don't. I don't 100%. But these people aren't focused on

670
00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:57,620
what they're drinking. They're. They're focused on being at a pub, you know, or.

671
00:41:57,620 --> 00:42:01,370
Or whatever it is that they're doing. So I think at the end,

672
00:42:01,370 --> 00:42:04,850
I think that the people who did this, it was a combination of organized crime

673
00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:09,090
from China and Eastern Europe, and they made the bottles

674
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:12,450
and brought them to the UK and just sold the crap out of them.

675
00:42:12,770 --> 00:42:16,530
You know, I was in London, I judge at the International Wine Challenge,

676
00:42:17,090 --> 00:42:20,770
and I went into one of those little mini. You know, there are a couple

677
00:42:20,770 --> 00:42:24,410
of large grocery chains, and I went

678
00:42:24,410 --> 00:42:28,220
into one of their little stores by a tube stop, and I bought

679
00:42:28,220 --> 00:42:31,500
a bottle of Hendrix and I took it back and I put it in the

680
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:35,140
freezer and it froze. What? Yeah.

681
00:42:35,140 --> 00:42:38,060
Bottle of Hendrix in the uk. Well, it's Scottish, but.

682
00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:42,540
Wow. Yeah, it's really crazy. I know.

683
00:42:42,620 --> 00:42:46,460
A fake bottle of Hendrix. Yeah, that's why I drink Gordon's.

684
00:42:46,460 --> 00:42:49,980
So my dad. So, I mean,

685
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:53,910
it happens and it's, you know, and I think that, you

686
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:57,670
know, you'd get. So this woman apparently was buying. You know, somebody showed up

687
00:42:57,670 --> 00:43:01,510
with a. A van full of Yellowtail and said, hey, I've got this

688
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:04,750
extra. Do you want to buy it? You know, super price for you.

689
00:43:05,470 --> 00:43:08,070
And she bought it. But these people are, you know, they go around to these

690
00:43:08,070 --> 00:43:11,870
little stores and they say, oh, so and so store committed

691
00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:15,710
to 50 cases and they only bought 20. I've got 30 extra

692
00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:19,310
cases. Do you want them? A good story? Yeah,

693
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:22,550
that's a great story. Yeah. Heard it all the time.

694
00:43:23,830 --> 00:43:27,670
So how does it. Well, we're going to talk about this. This is fascinating stuff.

695
00:43:28,070 --> 00:43:31,870
But, you know, you get the three tier system America. Right. You have to go

696
00:43:31,870 --> 00:43:35,549
from the supplier, whether it's the importer or the winery, to if you use a

697
00:43:35,549 --> 00:43:39,070
distributor like Youngs OR R&DC or Southern

698
00:43:39,070 --> 00:43:42,710
or the big guys are. They are,

699
00:43:43,110 --> 00:43:46,880
is there fraud? Not from them, but because they're. I

700
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,360
mean, even 7 has like an internal ABC rep who's there all the time.

701
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,960
But is there fraud to them? A hundred percent.

702
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,200
Wow. So I've gotten bottles of, for example, Vogueway

703
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,999
that allegedly came directly from Drake

704
00:44:01,999 --> 00:44:05,080
Sashby to a reputable

705
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,760
vendor and, and then to my client.

706
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,040
And so what happens? Because wine has gotten so

707
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,650
expensive, things happen in transport.

708
00:44:17,770 --> 00:44:21,250
There is a very, very fine Bordeaux

709
00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:24,930
wine and they realized that

710
00:44:24,930 --> 00:44:28,250
somebody on their own bottling line was

711
00:44:28,250 --> 00:44:31,930
swapping out authentic bottles for counterfeits and putting counterfeits in the

712
00:44:31,930 --> 00:44:34,410
OWCs. Wow. So,

713
00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:38,730
yeah. So people across the value chain

714
00:44:39,370 --> 00:44:41,670
realize this, you know, and

715
00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:46,470
so here's. I think this is fascinating. So

716
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:50,510
there was a ship carrying Domain de la Rome Conti

717
00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:54,150
and it stopped in Honfleur in France. And

718
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:57,190
this wine was stolen from the port.

719
00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:00,950
The police got it back. It went to Canada.

720
00:45:01,830 --> 00:45:05,590
The importer in Canada immediately turned around and sold his allocation to

721
00:45:05,590 --> 00:45:09,440
brokers in New York City who sold the wine

722
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,360
to an executive at Goldman Sachs

723
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,440
who put it in his house at the Hamptons. And then that

724
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,080
guy's cellar manager, when he was away,

725
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,600
stole the wine. And that cellar manager ended up

726
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,840
jumping off the Essex House the day that he was supposed to get arraigned

727
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,040
or sentenced. Oh, wait, yeah, that was,

728
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,300
it was in the news. But so that line got stolen and transport.

729
00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:39,860
And then it went to a sole importer in Canada who turned around and

730
00:45:39,860 --> 00:45:43,700
gray marketed it to the United States. So that's supposed

731
00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:47,460
to be a good supply chain. But DRC can't control the bottles

732
00:45:47,460 --> 00:45:50,700
once they leave. Once they leave drc. This is why we have to control the

733
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:54,420
supply chain to control fraud. Because a lot of times what happens is the,

734
00:45:54,420 --> 00:45:58,260
you know, truck drivers are beginning to pay attention to how much the ones are

735
00:45:58,260 --> 00:46:02,110
worth. You know, you just take a couple cases off the top of a.

736
00:46:02,350 --> 00:46:05,590
Take a couple cases off the top of the pallet and you've got a down

737
00:46:05,590 --> 00:46:09,350
payment for a house. Sure. You know that whole truck of papi that

738
00:46:09,350 --> 00:46:12,830
was stolen how many years ago? Right. There's that big. So it does.

739
00:46:13,310 --> 00:46:16,950
It does. And, and, and I'll tell you with this shavel

740
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:19,710
Solution. I have talked to some of these big

741
00:46:20,430 --> 00:46:24,230
wholesalers and distributors and they're very interested in it because they

742
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:27,900
want that oversight, because they want to. You know,

743
00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:31,660
the interesting thing about this is that at the

744
00:46:31,660 --> 00:46:35,420
bottle level you can't swap it out. So one of the other things

745
00:46:35,420 --> 00:46:38,900
that happens a lot is people put their wine in storage, right?

746
00:46:39,220 --> 00:46:42,860
And you've got a bottle of 82 Petrus in storage. Guy who owns the storage

747
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:46,580
facility needs some money, he goes and sells your 82 Petrus.

748
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:50,580
And when somebody else comes in with an 82 Petrus, he puts your,

749
00:46:50,990 --> 00:46:54,670
he replaces your bottle. And sometimes like

750
00:46:54,670 --> 00:46:58,390
in Francis Dinkel spells book, you know, the Ponzi scheme

751
00:46:58,390 --> 00:47:01,150
ends up running out. Yeah, right. But this

752
00:47:01,870 --> 00:47:05,630
solution protects the individual bottle because you

753
00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:09,470
can't swap my bottle. That's my bottle of Lafitte. It's not a bottle of Lafitte

754
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:13,110
anymore, it's my bottle. And, and the

755
00:47:13,110 --> 00:47:16,830
producer can, can see where it is. You know, in the end,

756
00:47:16,830 --> 00:47:20,630
consumer can see where it's been and that the wholesaler can

757
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:24,510
track where it goes. And you know, there's going to be some issues,

758
00:47:24,510 --> 00:47:28,310
there's going to be some gray market, but the gray market is really where

759
00:47:28,310 --> 00:47:32,110
a lot of that fraud gets into the three tier system. That

760
00:47:32,110 --> 00:47:35,830
was the other thing I told the National Conference of State

761
00:47:35,830 --> 00:47:39,670
Liquor Authorities. This three tier system, in my opinion, is a joke.

762
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:43,350
It is a joke. It's a total joke. And

763
00:47:43,830 --> 00:47:47,570
it doesn't work because in the state of California you can

764
00:47:47,570 --> 00:47:51,290
be an importer and a vendor. So there you

765
00:47:51,290 --> 00:47:54,690
go. Three tier system broken, right? So. Well,

766
00:47:55,090 --> 00:47:58,650
as I talk about, Prohibition was never repealed. It was just broken up into 50

767
00:47:58,650 --> 00:48:02,090
pieces and everybody could control and it's a pain in the ass. I will say

768
00:48:02,090 --> 00:48:05,850
something interesting. We're going to be on an hour really soon here and this

769
00:48:05,850 --> 00:48:09,330
is going to have to be a two parter. But I was just awarded

770
00:48:09,570 --> 00:48:12,850
and it hasn't hit the press yet because it hasn't started yet, but it's

771
00:48:12,930 --> 00:48:16,730
contracted. The only direct to consumer vendor

772
00:48:16,730 --> 00:48:20,490
allowed to ship into Utah, they put out

773
00:48:20,490 --> 00:48:23,970
an rfp. A few, Long story short, they put on RFP in

774
00:48:24,050 --> 00:48:27,810
January and. But I had been talking to him for years

775
00:48:28,290 --> 00:48:32,090
and they've now authorized it and now we're working on the process. And

776
00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:35,490
it's incredible opportunity. I think it's incredible opportunity for,

777
00:48:35,570 --> 00:48:39,130
for. So I broke my, my teeth in

778
00:48:39,130 --> 00:48:42,620
Utah. I half grew up in Park City. We had a home in Deer Valley

779
00:48:42,620 --> 00:48:46,460
from the time that it opened. Well, this is. So my dad bought my parents

780
00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:50,060
Bought in Deer Valley in 1983. Deer

781
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:53,820
Valley opened in 1982. So I spent a lot of my

782
00:48:53,820 --> 00:48:57,420
youth there. When I graduated from college, I was living in Deer

783
00:48:57,420 --> 00:49:00,460
Valley. I was working at, I worked at the Stein Erickson Lodge. It was my

784
00:49:00,460 --> 00:49:03,940
first job out of college. Wow. And then I wrote wine lists

785
00:49:04,180 --> 00:49:07,640
in Park City for a friend who had a couple different

786
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,160
restaurants. And so I know Utah very

787
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,840
well. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible facility.

788
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:19,040
I toured their 100,000 square foot, completely robotic distribution center, which

789
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,840
is like amazing. Yeah. And watch, you know, Barton's Vodka go by me as well

790
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,520
as Opus go by me. Yeah. That's not really the

791
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,200
reason. Congratulations there. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be a fun

792
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,430
thing. The reason is there is no three tier. There

793
00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:38,150
is no nothing. You don't have to register the brands, you don't have to

794
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:41,470
go through. You don't have to worry about Federal Express returning the package. You don't

795
00:49:41,470 --> 00:49:44,910
have to worry about signatures required. None of that occurs in, in Utah because it

796
00:49:44,910 --> 00:49:48,390
goes to the store and the consumer picks it up and they can't return it.

797
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:52,110
There's no alcohol return. So that's an amazing thing. Even though they do

798
00:49:52,110 --> 00:49:55,950
take 88%. And I can privately go over the numbers with you, but yeah,

799
00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:59,030
they, they get 80% of what they do. You know, when they do their, when

800
00:49:59,030 --> 00:50:02,110
they do their. They get their papi allocation like I used to get mine.

801
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,360
And. But you can, because it's only 88%. If

802
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,560
you win the lottery and you win the right to buy Pappy, it's like,

803
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,680
you know, like a hundred bucks. Not even a hundred dollars. It's 88%

804
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,160
on $69. And my, my boyfriend and I,

805
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,800
we've been together for over 10 years, but he, I, I met, I,

806
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,720
I was dating him actually in 96 when I moved to New York.

807
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,880
He was a bartender in park city for, for 20 plus years.

808
00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:31,100
And one of the, we were telling a friend the other day, we were telling

809
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:34,900
Ronan because we were at Napa together, that one of the great things

810
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:38,620
about Utah is that at the end of the, when it, when a new vintage

811
00:50:38,620 --> 00:50:42,460
comes in, they don't mark things up. No. So if

812
00:50:42,460 --> 00:50:46,180
you happen to be in the right place at the right time, you get

813
00:50:46,180 --> 00:50:49,700
screaming deals on first growths and burgundies that people don't know about.

814
00:50:50,420 --> 00:50:53,140
So it can be kind of a trick. Maybe we shouldn't be telling people that.

815
00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:56,960
So very interesting. But I want to ask you a question about a recent

816
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,200
theft. Then we'll have to wrap it up, and then we're going to come back,

817
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,000
we're going to get heavy into the blockchain concept when we do

818
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,240
this again. And we can do it next week or the week after, whenever you

819
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:10,079
want. Perfect. There was a huge theft. In fact, I was in Hermosa beach,

820
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:12,560
where I hang out all the time. I was talking to the liquor store owner

821
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,000
there, and she's got an interesting collection of wines. And she said, did you hear

822
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,720
about the theft in Venice? And it was just written up again, I guess. This

823
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,480
morning, my daughter sent me an article. There's a video of the guy looking in

824
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,240
the camera. So I think the wholesale value of the

825
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:28,938
retail value was 100 grand or $200,000.

826
00:51:29,262 --> 00:51:32,000
700,000. Okay. So let's say

827
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,480
so for one, that person doesn't know what he's stolen because it

828
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,320
could be fraudulent. So let me tell you about it. Go ahead. So. Because

829
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,040
the next morning, I got a phone call from. These are the types of

830
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,840
cases that I help. That I help law enforcement with. And there's also a

831
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,120
private investigator working on this. So I know a little bit about this case.

832
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:55,910
So do you remember the French Laundry case? Yes.

833
00:51:56,470 --> 00:51:58,870
That was one of 13 thefts in the Bay Area.

834
00:52:00,150 --> 00:52:03,150
So there is a ring of people who are doing this, and they did not

835
00:52:03,150 --> 00:52:06,990
get caught. These guys went through the

836
00:52:06,990 --> 00:52:10,790
ceiling and they dropped down. And they

837
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:13,910
have them on camera for three hours

838
00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:18,020
FaceTiming with somebody showing them all the bottles. Come on.

839
00:52:18,340 --> 00:52:22,100
Nope. Wow. So three hours they were in there,

840
00:52:23,060 --> 00:52:26,500
and somebody was directing them bottle by bottle, what to steal.

841
00:52:27,220 --> 00:52:30,660
Now, you know, again, they said, you know,

842
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:34,260
I said, first thing the guys got, you know, get serial numbers, get in. Because

843
00:52:34,260 --> 00:52:37,820
a lot of it was burgundy. I'm like, okay, well, Wilson Daniels will know what

844
00:52:37,820 --> 00:52:41,540
serial numbers you have. So get that information. They're like, we're going to send a

845
00:52:41,540 --> 00:52:45,220
list to the auction houses. And I'm like, nope, the wine's already been sold. The

846
00:52:45,220 --> 00:52:47,660
wine was sold probably before the theft occurred.

847
00:52:49,020 --> 00:52:52,740
And it's through these brokers who have their rich

848
00:52:52,740 --> 00:52:55,740
clients, and they send a list and they say, hey, this is what we've got.

849
00:52:56,380 --> 00:53:00,100
And then, you know, the wine gets sold. It never gets. It's

850
00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:03,740
never online. No. Of course, it's never publicized. And this,

851
00:53:03,740 --> 00:53:06,780
again, my blockchain solution will stop that.

852
00:53:07,580 --> 00:53:10,780
It won't stop at all, but it will be able to recover those bottles.

853
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:14,680
So it's interesting that. But let's just say that

854
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,160
there's. These guys are stealing because the three tier system's

855
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,880
Broken. And I've had many, many people

856
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,640
over the years bring me things that I unfortunately couldn't use

857
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,080
at the time that I would love to know what the provenance was.

858
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:33,280
Right. You know, these guys could have stolen some

859
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,440
fake DRC as it was as well though. Right? Sure.

860
00:53:37,250 --> 00:53:40,930
But the guy, this was a wine shop. Only a wine shop.

861
00:53:41,170 --> 00:53:45,010
Yeah. Distilled spirits. I don't know if he sold

862
00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:48,370
spirits, but, but I know that he did have a lot of direct

863
00:53:48,370 --> 00:53:51,970
allocations. I mean he had the store for like 20

864
00:53:51,970 --> 00:53:55,810
years. So if he had counterfeits that

865
00:53:55,810 --> 00:53:59,250
he then he bought them on the gray market and, and he was duped. But

866
00:53:59,330 --> 00:54:02,900
this is exactly how the three tier system is broken because

867
00:54:02,900 --> 00:54:06,180
those guys can so easily flip those ones.

868
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:11,380
There is no control. It's absolutely ridiculous. And in this country,

869
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:16,060
all the money goes to the lobbyists who care about not

870
00:54:16,060 --> 00:54:19,740
shipping to different states. They don't care about the actual

871
00:54:19,740 --> 00:54:23,580
crime. And they need to open up their eyes because they're losing massive

872
00:54:23,580 --> 00:54:27,220
amounts of money. The governments are losing huge

873
00:54:27,220 --> 00:54:31,010
amounts of money in unpaid taxes. Like we both live in California.

874
00:54:31,330 --> 00:54:35,090
Stop raising my taxes. Go after the crooks. Right.

875
00:54:35,410 --> 00:54:38,930
You know, but yeah, theft. That

876
00:54:38,930 --> 00:54:42,770
pipe is amazing. I mean they burrowed through the ceiling. You know, I don't

877
00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:45,970
understand it because my father, before he was in the wine business in the 70s,

878
00:54:45,970 --> 00:54:49,050
he had a chain of pharmacies and that was the first thing you protected because

879
00:54:49,050 --> 00:54:52,730
they were stealing narcotics all the time. And he learned early on in

880
00:54:52,730 --> 00:54:56,370
1959 or something that you got to protect the ceiling

881
00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:59,910
because that happened all the time. Yeah, well, that amazing.

882
00:55:00,470 --> 00:55:03,830
And that's, that's how they went into a lot of the restaurants in the, in

883
00:55:03,830 --> 00:55:07,230
the, you know, break ins that went here too. The other thing that they had

884
00:55:07,230 --> 00:55:10,950
in common, all of these break ins happen on the night before a

885
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:14,390
holiday closure. So that there is going to be 24 hours before

886
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:18,150
somebody's in the, in the space. Oh, that's interesting thought because.

887
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:20,630
Yeah, the only successful

888
00:55:21,590 --> 00:55:25,300
theft in Vegas, which was many years ago was

889
00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:30,300
planned the day after the super bowl because of all the money that

890
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:34,100
would have been in the vault at the sports, the sports, sports book.

891
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:37,500
But I had a

892
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:41,220
conversation with an executive of R&DC

893
00:55:41,940 --> 00:55:45,380
and it fascinates me to have these conversations because when you're talking about

894
00:55:45,620 --> 00:55:49,380
breaking down prohibition and you know, we in the industry, you know,

895
00:55:49,380 --> 00:55:52,700
that's at odds with the commerce clause and we've been trying to get the Supreme

896
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:56,310
Court to look at and they won't and yeah, you're. It's mainly

897
00:55:56,310 --> 00:55:59,670
because the wswa, the Wholesalers Spirits association of

898
00:55:59,670 --> 00:56:03,470
America, is very powerful like

899
00:56:03,470 --> 00:56:06,430
the NRA is, and they're not going to let you break down.

900
00:56:08,030 --> 00:56:11,830
And let's face it, you know, the mob was in wine and liquor for forever.

901
00:56:11,830 --> 00:56:15,070
I mean, maybe they still are in some cases, but, you know, for the most

902
00:56:15,070 --> 00:56:18,910
part, it's just leftover mob mob

903
00:56:19,150 --> 00:56:22,710
mentality that keeps us at bay this way

904
00:56:23,350 --> 00:56:26,310
just because it's alcohol. But it was a very interesting.

905
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:30,710
It's in the interesting thing to me, when I had this conversation, I wanted

906
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:34,070
to have the listeners of the show hear from somebody

907
00:56:34,070 --> 00:56:37,710
inside, one of the people. It's a completely different

908
00:56:37,710 --> 00:56:40,870
outlook on what goes on in the marketplace.

909
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:45,150
It is strictly driven by how much can I sell and when

910
00:56:45,150 --> 00:56:48,840
can I sell it. There's no romance of the industry.

911
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,280
There's no romance of the alcohol. There's no romance of wine. There's none of that

912
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,920
exists. It's out of the background. The question is, how much shelf

913
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,080
space can I get and what can I sell it for and what are they

914
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,520
drinking? I could care less if they're drinking White Claw, which is

915
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,240
canned crap that the millennials think is great,

916
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:10,960
and not worry about the fine wine division because you know what? People

917
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,780
are buying it right now. So it's not that important. It's a fascinating part of

918
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:18,620
that industry that is. Yeah. So that's a commodity.

919
00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:22,740
Yeah. And that's unfortunate. And that's what breaks my heart. And that's why I go

920
00:57:22,740 --> 00:57:26,580
back to the producer and I want to find the solution that

921
00:57:26,580 --> 00:57:30,140
enables the producer to protect their brand, protect their

922
00:57:30,140 --> 00:57:33,860
legacy, protect the product, give them

923
00:57:33,860 --> 00:57:36,540
oversight, protect the end user and

924
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:40,400
connect the end user and the producer directly.

925
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,760
So I'm excited to tell you about that because it's really. When we do part

926
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,840
two, and I'll make sure I stay focused on that, we can do it as

927
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,360
soon as you'd like. It goes. I mean, it's hard because it's such a fun

928
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,080
topic. We're just going to get into that because I want to hear about

929
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,800
it because I've always wondered about blockchain technology when it

930
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,640
came to wine, you know, where it has its. Where it fits. And it

931
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,450
sounds like you've got a keen understanding of how that's going to help the

932
00:58:06,450 --> 00:58:10,210
consumer. And. And the people that listen to the show are. Are

933
00:58:10,210 --> 00:58:13,890
wine consumers. And there's. I get trade people on the show that will

934
00:58:13,890 --> 00:58:16,930
listen to it and I have consumers listen to it. And I think this is

935
00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:20,650
a fascinating subject. It's Been such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you. You,

936
00:58:20,650 --> 00:58:24,290
too. Los Altos, which is sort of the

937
00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:28,130
southern part of the peninsula, right? Yeah. I'm in Los Altos Hills. So.

938
00:58:28,130 --> 00:58:31,570
I mean, one of the things that's interesting is that my father. This is the

939
00:58:31,570 --> 00:58:35,290
original Silicon Valley. This is the original Silicon

940
00:58:35,290 --> 00:58:38,490
Valley. My father's one of the original designers of the integrated circuit.

941
00:58:38,890 --> 00:58:42,450
Wow. So it's kind of fun that, you know that he was an

942
00:58:42,450 --> 00:58:46,290
inventor of an entrepreneur, and I'm kind of. And I'm sitting in his office

943
00:58:46,290 --> 00:58:48,730
right now, so. Where'd you fly into San Jose to get there?

944
00:58:50,090 --> 00:58:53,850
Well, I live in Sausalito. Oh, you do? Okay. And. And we have a

945
00:58:53,850 --> 00:58:57,690
home in Sonoma, so. But my mom still lives here, so I kind of

946
00:58:57,690 --> 00:59:01,350
fly. You know, I drive back and forth. Well, I'll keep you posted the next

947
00:59:01,350 --> 00:59:04,270
time we're coming up. We usually fly to Oakland, but I'd be willing to fly

948
00:59:04,430 --> 00:59:08,270
into wherever to. To sit with you live with

949
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:12,110
the microphones. I have a little portable studio I bring along. Yeah. No, is the

950
00:59:12,110 --> 00:59:15,550
most fun. We'll do it up there. Okay. I'll open up something yummy and real.

951
00:59:16,030 --> 00:59:19,470
And now you got my

952
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:23,190
interest in these. Like, one of these. Well, I've probably tasted many fake wine, not

953
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:26,990
knowing that they were bottled improperly. But I tried it.

954
00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:30,750
I tried to do business with, you know, reputable. Like we were in French Lonnie

955
00:59:30,750 --> 00:59:34,270
once for dinner, and I had a customer looking specifically for

956
00:59:34,270 --> 00:59:38,110
Burgundy for a seller, and kind of wonder how many fake ones are

957
00:59:38,110 --> 00:59:41,510
his seller? Because he. He was one of those guys looking for a deal somewhere.

958
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:45,510
Oh, yeah. And. And they brought.

959
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:48,350
I told. I told the guy my budget. I told him I wanted a Grand

960
00:59:48,350 --> 00:59:50,350
Cru or Premier Crew if I could do it. And I want to cote the

961
00:59:50,350 --> 00:59:53,950
nui. And he. He brought this wine, and

962
00:59:54,030 --> 00:59:57,510
I rolled it over, and it was an importer in San Francisco. And I've trusted

963
00:59:57,510 --> 01:00:01,270
them ever since. They've. They've. You know, here's the difference. I'll just

964
01:00:01,270 --> 01:00:04,750
wrap it up with this. I did a real estate transaction here,

965
01:00:06,110 --> 01:00:09,710
and it culminated and started. It started and culminated

966
01:00:09,790 --> 01:00:13,150
on a glass of Grand Cru Burgundy.

967
01:00:13,470 --> 01:00:16,990
I forgot the region. And it told

968
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:20,660
me when that happened that how important a good glass

969
01:00:20,660 --> 01:00:24,500
of wine is. How good? Honest. And I think it's a great term now,

970
01:00:24,500 --> 01:00:28,340
I've been using a lot. Honest glass of wine means two things now. Right.

971
01:00:28,340 --> 01:00:32,100
It not only means that the winemaker was true to trying to put together

972
01:00:32,100 --> 01:00:35,580
the terroir of that wine based on what he or she was received, but now

973
01:00:35,580 --> 01:00:37,780
we're talking about your honesty, like. Yeah.

974
01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:43,220
Yeah. I mean, it's. It's. Yeah. It's a crazy world. Too complicated. Thanks

975
01:00:43,220 --> 01:00:47,020
again, Maureen, for the time. Thank you. And. And I look forward to part two.

976
01:00:47,020 --> 01:00:50,860
I'll. I'll bring some counterfeit bottles for you to look at. That'd be so fun.

977
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:54,460
Yeah, good. We'll do it again. Cheers. Thanks.