Growing Wine Brands: Digital Strategies and Innovation with Molly Bossardt

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Carson, Leno, Fallon.

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Now it's Wine Talks with

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Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul

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K. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California, about to have a

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conversation with Molly Bassard way out in Virginia. Introductions

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in just a moment. Wine Talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora,

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Spotify, wherever you hang out for podcasting. And hey, give me a review.

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I mean, give me a good review. If you don't have a good review to

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say, then don't say it at all. I'd appreciate that. And tell your friends about

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it. Have a cup. Have a listen to a couple of shows I just

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released. One of them was with Vito La Fata. And we're going to talk about

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digital marketing today with Molly. So we're going to talk about a

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startup winery, startup wine tasting room here in Southern California in

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Temecula. And Vito, you know, he seems to have it going on. I think you

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have an interesting conversation, interesting listen of him as well.

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Just off a trip from Bordeaux. And you want a

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whole different viewpoint of the world of wine. That's where you go. And so

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I had a conversation with the winemaker at the famed Cheval Blanc and

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Monsieur Clouet and you will hear the most amazing

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passion of being in this industry that you've ever heard. So have a

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listen to that, but not while we're here. We're here to talk with Molly,

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the founder of Bread and Butter digital marketing. Welcome to the show. Thank

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you. Thanks for having me. We had a great pre call conversation about what

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this crazy industry does to our lives. But you're going to share

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that with us now. But tell me about Bread and Butter, exactly what

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you know, where your market is and what you do with it. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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So I founded Bread and butter in 2020.

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Initially I was supporting local businesses

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with organic social media and social media,

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paid social media as well. So basically supporting them with like their digital marketing efforts.

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Prior to that I had experience. I was living in New York pre

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pandemic. Like every, a lot of people, you know, uprooted their lives.

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So I moved back here and I noticed

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that there were so many wineries. I mean I knew that there

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were wineries here, but I was seeing this like lack of,

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of digital innovation or

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like even digital presence for a lot of wineries. So I really thought that my

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skill set would like perfectly match the wine industry. So

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I really niched into wine pretty soon

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after founding my business and since then I've been supporting

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wineries with all forms of digital marketing. So kind

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of coming on site for smaller wineries and helping them out in a360

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capacity. So really hitting like omnipresent channels,

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email marketing, social media management, paid digital

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website optimization, et cetera. So

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that's one aspect. I know, I know and I talk really

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fast, so I'm sorry, I'll try to slow it down. No, no, I mean

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I just talk about all those pieces of digital marketing

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prongs, each one of them. Yeah. And they've got multi, you

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know, so many layers. When we're talking about organic social media. It's

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also managing, working with influencers. There's an element of

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PR too, you know, when I'm working in that capacity

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with clients. And then I also support,

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with paid social advertising, so meta

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advertising, I support clients in that realm as well and I really love that

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and find that to be really effective way to drive

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sales, you know, really effective and measurable. Well, we'll get into the

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granularity of some of those because. Because an hour, not

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even an hour is not enough to talk about each one of those things. But

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there's. You said something interesting. You said you started in 2020, which of course was

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the pandemic. Yes, the pandemic, at least for the wine trade out

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here in general on the Internet. Being the Internet marketer that we

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were, you know, that was, you could do no wrong during the pandemic.

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This was a no brainer. They'd buy anything I told them to buy.

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And in fact the reason I have such a great collection left over after selling

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my company is because they didn't buy at all. I mean, you know, it's because

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the pandemic ended and it changed everything.

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So how did you see a need for this at that

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moment? I mean it's like it was like crazy good for everybody. Unless the Virginia

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wineries were suffering from something else. Yeah, I mean it

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was. I, I think the wine industry as

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a whole is a bit behind the times, you know, if we compare to,

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to other E commerce. So I know the wine industry for legal

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reasons took a really long time to get on the bandwagon of D2C

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E commerce sales. Because of that lag, a lot

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of their marketing has been a lot slower. I

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think maybe it's not just attributed to that. I think there are other reasons

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too. So I definitely like, I still

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stand by this, that this, this idea that the wine industry is

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many years behind in their marketing and in their

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efforts. And I mean I read, I read

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all the news about the wine industry and how it's having a really Challenging time,

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capturing that younger audience. And I've definitely seen that in

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some businesses that I work with,

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we can get into like the granular details of that. But there are, of course,

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outliers to that. There are people who are marketing,

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I would say correctly, or being innovative in their marketing practices. So they

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are able to, you know, attract a younger demographic, which

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that means they're going to withstand, you know, they're, they're going

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to be more resilient as things get, you know, harder.

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So coming from 2020, because

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all you said is accurate and there's a lot of reasons why. And I don't

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think everybody, you know, the consumer knows that.

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I just got the phone with a niece of mine who's starting a salad dressing

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company and she, she actually asked me the same exact questions or

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the same answers we're going to come up with today.

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She has a crossroads. And this is a more fluid product,

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obviously. It's, you know, it's dynamic, it's. But it's just as

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competitive. It's very hard to find shelf space. The whole thing.

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It's not as slow because wine is slow. It's a one year

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of a year product. Right. You only get one chance a year. And I think

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that trickles back to the mentality of the marketeers and the

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winery people themselves. Let's face it, wineries are farmers.

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Yeah. Yeah, right. They don't know what you do. No.

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And I think there's a real aversion to marketing. I don't know, I kind of

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say I hope your wine makers don't like the people

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who listen. I hope they don't

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come at me. But I describe you winemakers as mad

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scientists meets, like crazy artist and a nice little

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combination of the two. And it seems like marketing and

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business kind of don't come into play as much

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as I would say they should. But I have, I'm a marketer, so I come

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from, you know, I come to wine with a marketing perspective.

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Well, it's a, it's a. No. This is. You're right on. I mean, this is

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a serious issue. It's probably not a new issue. We may think

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it's new because we're new to the, to the environment. Let's just say new. Me,

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Even the last 20 years, for me, the last 30 years, yeah. Digital marketing for

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me started a long time ago. We were doing emails for

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forever. But, but the, the problem is not new.

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I mean, the problem with any industry to keep up with where

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the consumer is and who's buying and who isn't I think as as old

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as marketing is concerned, we just have methodologies now that

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are faster, quicker, more responsive and more dynamic.

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So is your main client then the Virginia based wineries?

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Not necessarily. I work with clients like nationally primarily.

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I don't really work with any international clients because, you know,

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I was just talking about Virginia wines. We talked about it briefly before, but I

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had featured one years ago. But there seems to be a resurgence of the east

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coast, you know, knowledge base of wine. There seems to be a lot of Long

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island people coming online. Virginia certainly have more wineries than they did 10

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years ago. Do you see that effect, you

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know, immediately, so to speak, in, in your neighborhood?

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Yeah, definitely. So I'm in Charlottesville, which is kind

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of, it's in the Monticello ABA. So that's one of the older

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AVAs in Virginia. And some of the oldest,

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most established wineries are, you know, kind of like in my backyard. I mean,

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within an hour radius of where I live.

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Yet year over year, more and more wineries

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are opening up. So it's becoming a lot more competitive.

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There's also, I mean, I'm in Charlottesville, but there's a ton of wineries in Northern

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Virginia. I have some clients up there as well. And

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that's kind of great because you're next to, you know, you're close enough to the

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D.C. corridor. So people are coming out from D.C. so I think that

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they're well positioned. And it's funny, I think

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there was just an article on Forbes about Northern

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Virginia being America's next great like wine region.

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So I think that's really interesting. It's. There's a lot of press, there's a lot

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of innovation in Virginia. There's a lot of buzz in Virginia.

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And so I just see these, these

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smaller or lesser known, lesser pop, less popular

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wine regions are going to really continue to gain some

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notoriety. And Virginia, you know, they

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say Virginia right now is similar to what Napa was in the

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70s. Like they've been making wine for a

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while. Right. But they're finally starting to figure out what really

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works in Virginia and like doubling down on that. So there's some really

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interesting things happening here. Interesting things

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with like hybrids happening and. Yeah,

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yeah. I mean there's a lot of innovation and it's pretty

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cool. I think I mentioned I went to Napa Valley and I went to the

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association of African American Vendors association, associate

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redundant and the first four tables were

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Virginia based wineries and I hadn't tasted them for a long time. I

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mean, look, you And I know the marketplace for selling wine is difficult. And

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so you certainly on a Virginia based Appalachians and

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wineries would probably stick around their neighborhood a little bit, try to stay local, try

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to sell locally. Breaking out of the national, you know,

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marketing efforts is really a tough. I've been representing

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three brands here that I thought were really great brands. I cannot,

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even with all the connections in all the years, find a distributor today,

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in today's environment that want to take on a new brand in

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both. In all, three of these things are pretty, you know, hot segments because

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their book is full, they don't have the staff to sell it. And

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unless you have the placements already in hand, you come to them with a hat

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full of places. Well, I got it here, I got it here, I got it

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here. So they can pick up immediate sales volume. It's very tough. So

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how, how do, how do people find you? How do people find

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bread and butter? You

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mean my clients? No. Yeah, like you should have said

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very nice. I'm a nice person. They find me as a grape. No, I mean,

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So, I mean I'm very active on LinkedIn. I've made a ton of connections as

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we met on LinkedIn. So that's one of my favorite, like

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social media places to be currently

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for a couple of reasons, LinkedIn, obviously you're going to get a more professional crowd.

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Also not a lot of people are posting really interesting content on LinkedIn. So

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that's a hot tip for anybody else who's like a business

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provider like me. I made a lot of really great

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connections there. And then of course, like, I mean,

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I, you know, honestly, I reach out cold, usually do a lot

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of cold email introductions to, to people and have gotten clients that

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way. What are they, what's, what is the typical.

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I think we had this conversation too. When I went to Napa before COVID I

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had this conversation like, you know, what are the wineries going

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to do when Covid hits that don't even have a chat bar on their, on

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their computer. And that makes sense because I'm a small winery and I'm

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a farmer. I don't understand how to put a customer service representative in front of

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a monitor and wait for the chat bar to ring. So what do they usually

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come to you with like, this is what I'm doing, I'm not doing anything,

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you know, talk to me kind of thing. What are they, what's their typical?

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Yeah, it varies. So the smaller

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scale wineries that don't have any kind of marketing team

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never have generally come to me with like a website

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that probably is a little bit outdated, I don't do website

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design so I'll refer them out to other people who do

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and then really like need to establish

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some sort of social media presence. So organic social media

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is typically for those smaller businesses where,

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where we're going to start essentially after the website has been

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updated and cleaned up, really establishing that as

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a channel and like getting people on, you know,

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getting followers. And from there,

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you know, we kind of go through a bit of a journey of just

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creating, you know, creating some

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buzz around your winery. So I really like

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partnering with influencers. I think it's kind of an untapped resource in the

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wine industry because not a line of wineries are necessarily

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taking advantage of that and

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it's not expensive. So a lot of those people will come

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free basically, you know, like for drinks and to, to

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be able to use it for their own content. So that's really great.

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Then we work on, you know, some, some press. So getting

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some really good press for my clients has been something that I've been able to

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do. Forbes, Wall Street Journal for clients. So

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really good heavy hitting things along those lines.

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Obviously email marketing is critical so putting in some sort of email marketing

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infrastructure, it's going to be different for each client based on

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their needs and priorities. And from the top we're doing

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a comprehensive strategy and doing a roadmap

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essentially for the next six months or so of

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ways what is our goal and then how are we going to get there and

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breaking it down and then

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last, the last piece really is like pulling the,

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like turning up the dial with paid advertising. So whether

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that's Google or Meta, there's,

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you know, we can start to funnel some money into

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paid advertising to really turn up conversion.

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So the best case scenario for something like

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meta ads, for example, which Meta, if anybody's listening and

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doesn't really know what that is, it's Meta owns Facebook and Instagram, I'm sure you

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guys know. So. So it's advertising on both platforms.

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The best case scenario is to do something like a

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really. My favorite way to use that is if you are prioritizing e

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commerce and prioritizing conversions that

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way. So to actually create sales, generate more sales through,

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through the platform, you can also. I'm going to stop you for a second. What,

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what do they, what do you tell them to expect? Let's go back to

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the beginning. You, they come to you. We've talked about this idea

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of marketing in our office and we've never done it or we have, we have

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a website, we have a, we have an Instagram account. We haven't used it for

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months. What, what do you expect? What do you tell them

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to expect? When do you, you give them a time frame, like, well, I expect

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to see some activity and we're going to talk about some of the

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metrics here. I don't want to get into all of them, but we'll talk about

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some of them. The, or do they say,

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look, I had no idea that this was so complicated.

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Yeah, I mean I, it depends upon the

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person. I think they understand that it's complicated and it's not something they can just

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like do when they're part time. Like it's not

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a part time focus. Marketing for your, you know, for

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wineries really is like either a full time job or a full time focus,

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if that makes sense for sure. And,

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and you need to hire the right person, someone who has experience marketing, who understands,

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you know, how to market. And if you're a novice to that or don't understand

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it, it's going to be really hard for you to try to teach yourself how

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to do that. So

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in terms of expectations and what to see, I don't promise

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anything.

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I don't say you're gonna like 10 extra revenue. I

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show them, you know, I'm very, you know, every business is

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different. Every, every business is going to have a different journey.

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I have case studies from previous clients,

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so I have metrics that I can share to say I have proven

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track record of success and here they are. But I

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don't like to promise things because I'm not a fortune teller and there's

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a lot of, there's a lot that goes

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into it and there's a lot of things that happen that aren't always

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marketing.

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You think you could put a, a percentage?

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You know, going back to my experience, we sent 33 million emails in

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2022. Yeah. And so to produce that, you know,

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it's almost, that alone is probably a 20 hour a week job

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just to do the promo codes, find the content, segment the list,

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do the graphic and get it set up to mail.

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But could you put a percentage, you think, on the key

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revenue generators that you produce? Not, you know, it's not dollar amount

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but like email produces x percent of

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the average winemaker winery that's fully immersed in some of this

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Instagram Facebook meta is so and so Google

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Ads is another. SEO is another. Is there, is there a way to do that?

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It would vary for each business because each business is so different. Like Some of

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my clients are bigger and they have, you

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know, I'm thinking about the people who I work with in a Facebook ads capacity.

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They're spending a lot more money than the people who are,

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you know, who I'm working with in more of a 360 kind of capacity.

295
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I think it's important but because going back to the concept that

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these people don't know really what's involved and how

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complicated it can be. And you know, I think most

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people I spoke with early on in this, my, my career, I

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mean later in my career about doing this and what, what it takes,

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you know, you know, you drive these metrics and

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they're like what? You know, they're cross eyed. They don't. Which is fine

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because it's not something we understand. And then the more you get into

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it, the more their eyes gloss over. And so I'm trying to

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ascertain how you handle justifying some of these.

305
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You know, they don't always work. Right. They don't always work. And like I will

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say there's, there's definitely a lag

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if that makes sense. Like it takes time when

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you are doing all of these things to start

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to see results. Like it can take six months, it can take a year, which

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is a lot of time. But if you don't do it,

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you don't see the results, you know, so you don't see the

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growth. I mean, yeah, there

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it's hard to quantify like how much each

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channel is going to make the move. And I hate to say it but

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like you kind of in this day and age need

316
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to be able to do everything. So you know, I

317
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really don't think there's one thing that's going to make or break

318
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a business. I think you need to be consistently marketing on,

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you know, on every channel. Marketing has always been

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a multi pronged event, whether it was back in the day when I was doing

321
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mailers, you know, physical mailers, but you always had to have

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your hands in all the pies or else there's no magic

323
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wand wave. No. When it comes to marketing and it's,

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you know, as being as efficient as you can with the dollar so that when

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it all adds up, you eventually have more sales than

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expenses, you know, plus your margin. So.

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So speaking of like saving money, I mean I do think it makes sense to

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hire an agency or hire someone with experience

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who can help guide you through this process, who can help, you

330
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know, move the needle and take this

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off. Well, take this off of your plate or if you're not even doing it

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do it for you. I think I see a lot of these like smaller

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wineries doing things like hiring. Like I see

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a lot of smaller wineries or even bigger wineries hiring people with very little experience

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to run their marketing channels.

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And you know, I can even say like a former client of mine,

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they hired a marketing manager who had

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no marketing experience like in house. And it just made,

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it just made no sense to me because marketing,

340
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it does matter what you know, like it ma. Your

341
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experience matters when it comes to marketing because the more it's funny because like, you

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know, obviously we all have to start from somewhere. I started marketing in like

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2018. I mean I had experience before that. I have a master's

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from Sotheby's Institute of Art. So I studied marketing and I studied

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branding there and really like focused in on that

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and touched some aspects of marketing in prior roles like earlier

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in my career. But from 2018 to like where I

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am now, that's. What is that? Six years?

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Six, seven years, give or take. It doesn't seem like that long ago,

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but I've had a lot of experience. It's an important

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part. What's important about that is this contemporary

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marketing, right? So let's say I stopped my business 10 years

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ago when I was doing much less digital marketing and email marketing. I was

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still doing direct mail, you know, and it was actually pretty successful

355
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to a certain extent. If I stopped then I

356
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became a consultant today, I'd know nothing. So your

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basis of six years of current is a contemporary basis

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of six years, which gives an advantage to

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somebody coming to you. Because I wrote an article the other day in LinkedIn

360
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and when I started thinking about all the pieces and you already mentioned some

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affiliate marketing, email, email marketing,

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meta, Google Ads, SEO, you know

363
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those, you know that stuff. Every one of those can take a long

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time and a lot of labor. And it's very hard

365
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to find somebody on the street that has

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experience in all those pieces that you could hire at a reasonable rate

367
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and do it yourself. Besides the fact that person will be overwhelmed

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with all the hours it takes just to produce, like I said, emails. So

369
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I, I don't see how you get around a consultancy.

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Maybe because old school business people feel

371
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consultants aren't worth their money. But I don't know how you do it without it.

372
00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:26,670
Well, if you. Yeah, I mean, I think

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consultant can also be misleading. I'm not telling

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people, Ness. I mean I can come in in a consulting capacity and say this

375
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is what your team should be doing. But also I have done for you services.

376
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So we're taking it all off plate and doing it for you and like kind

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of really creating. I mean, me and my little team were like an

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outsourced marketing team. That's what I've been saying for years.

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So one thing I have seen is like

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a trend that I, you know, I hate to see, but is like

381
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these smaller wineries hiring people who are really good at social media, you

382
00:23:59,890 --> 00:24:03,370
know, who are like maybe have a following on their own or like no social

383
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:06,860
media. And that is a skill. But the problem is you can't just hire someone

384
00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:10,540
who knows social media because they don't understand marketing as a whole. They

385
00:24:10,540 --> 00:24:13,780
don't understand strategy, they don't understand branding necessarily. I mean,

386
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:17,540
sometimes you can find someone like that, but you really should find someone who has,

387
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:21,380
you know, education in this formal training, something

388
00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:24,900
that is giving them a broad understanding of, of

389
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,540
how marketing works in a comprehensive,

390
00:24:29,620 --> 00:24:33,390
you know, way. They have to support each

391
00:24:33,390 --> 00:24:36,950
other. I think you're right. A lot of people hired, well, my niece

392
00:24:37,270 --> 00:24:41,110
is really good at social, you know, she's really good. And, and then

393
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:44,030
I can tell you, I've had nieces that have done that and then they come

394
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to Uncle Paul and they go, I, I didn't know I did. I thought I

395
00:24:47,549 --> 00:24:49,670
understood this, but now I don't understand it.

396
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:55,550
What are their goals usually? Are they is a

397
00:24:55,550 --> 00:24:59,020
typical goal. I just want to sell more. I had this conversation with my niece

398
00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:02,300
this morning who's got the salad dressing company. As she asked me for advice, I

399
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:05,420
said, let's go back to the beginning. Are you trying to build a brand to

400
00:25:05,420 --> 00:25:07,820
sell the brand off and sell to a big company? Are you trying to keep

401
00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:11,260
the brand so you can augment the brand with other, other products in the future?

402
00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:14,820
What, what is your big goal so that we can understand what the best

403
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:18,180
prong to go after? Well, what is a typical goal for these wineries

404
00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:22,500
to sell? I mean, I think for the smaller scale

405
00:25:22,660 --> 00:25:25,870
wineries, their big goal is to drive foot traffic

406
00:25:26,590 --> 00:25:29,950
because that's where they're making majority of their money. Right.

407
00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:34,990
So that's a major goal that can't be overlooked. You know,

408
00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:40,030
secondary to that is obviously selling more. So creating an ecosystem

409
00:25:40,910 --> 00:25:44,670
to be able to sell online and sell direct to consumer is something that

410
00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:48,390
like, I really love to help clients with because I think that's just

411
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:52,020
like the way of the future and a way to,

412
00:25:52,340 --> 00:25:55,460
you know, increase revenue.

413
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:59,460
Yeah. So in the old days there used to be a benefit statement like,

414
00:26:00,980 --> 00:26:04,740
what, what does a winery tell you, and this is fascinating to me because

415
00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:08,580
wine, you know, it's the same product it was 10,000 years ago, but

416
00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:11,860
branding and packaging and all the rest of it, you know, changes all that. But.

417
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:15,700
Right. Do wineries even understand to. Some of the

418
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:19,530
organic, really farmed farmer type wineries understand

419
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:25,530
their position in the marketplace or where they want to be,

420
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:29,370
or they just have the concept of what they wanted to create when they started

421
00:26:29,370 --> 00:26:32,690
this and now realize, you know, we got to find a way to do more.

422
00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:36,330
But what do they have a vision of what who they are or want to

423
00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:40,170
be or do you create that? That's a great

424
00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:43,770
question. I, I think they generally know,

425
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,640
you know, they, they know to certain degree.

426
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,160
And to be fair, most of the people who work with me, I like, I'm

427
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,960
not working with a lot of the small and mom and pop farmers. I mean

428
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,760
they don't, again, like, they don't in conversations,

429
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,360
it's small budgets and a lack of like

430
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,280
desire to want to really market. So I don't

431
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,890
really have conversations with the really small farm,

432
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:15,410
like mom and pop shops. I'm working with like more mid sized kind of

433
00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:17,890
clients who, you know,

434
00:27:19,970 --> 00:27:23,810
maybe the winery is not their primary business or maybe

435
00:27:23,810 --> 00:27:27,489
they have multiple, like they have other businesses and they, so they have this like

436
00:27:27,489 --> 00:27:31,130
business sense. You know, the people that I'm, that I am working with, my

437
00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:34,970
clients are really smart business people who want to

438
00:27:34,970 --> 00:27:38,730
make their winery profitable. Right. They want to make

439
00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:42,520
it a viable business, I think to like leave a

440
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,320
legacy. And for my clients, this is kind of their fun business.

441
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Right. This isn't like their, their, this

442
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,120
is something that you don't want to lose passion and love, but they don't want

443
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,800
to lose money. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that they

444
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,400
like also, yeah, they, they want to

445
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,480
be recognized, they want to do good work, they want to build a good product

446
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,800
and they want to like connect that product with people. So I mean there is

447
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,640
that fundamental passion and love for, for making

448
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,760
wine, obviously, and for making a really good product.

449
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,920
And so these people. I had

450
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,920
this conversation this morning. The concept behind

451
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,199
marketing wine is the fact that we just discuss

452
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,360
there's two parts of the wine trade. There's that making it and being

453
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,960
the farmer. And we just discussed that. But that's almost

454
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,210
worthless without the marketeer coming in and the branding.

455
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:41,410
And then we find out how complicated it is. So

456
00:28:42,370 --> 00:28:46,090
up against all the shelf wines, I mean, you walk

457
00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:49,890
into the supermarkets, the same stuff everywhere from across the country. You

458
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:53,650
get Josh, you get Apothec red. I mean this stuff's unpalatable almost,

459
00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:57,170
in my opinion. And these winers you represent

460
00:28:57,890 --> 00:29:00,930
are up against that. Are they trying to go head to head with those kinds

461
00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:04,560
of wines? Brands who have endless marketing dollars? Are they trying to

462
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,400
carve out their, their niche?

463
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,800
I don't think they're trying to go head to head with those. I think they're

464
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,280
focused on what they do well and doing

465
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,600
well at that thing and focusing in on that niche.

466
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,120
Yeah, I think it's. It's really hard to compete with

467
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,570
people who have endless marketing dollars.

468
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:36,290
And I think, like, also geographically speaking, being Virginia

469
00:29:36,290 --> 00:29:40,090
wine, you know, if I'm talking about my Virginia wine clients, that

470
00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:45,049
those people are, you know, really

471
00:29:45,049 --> 00:29:48,730
looking locally for their local support and for their local community.

472
00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:52,850
And I think community is more important than sales for

473
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:55,880
them. You know, I mean, obviously sales are important, but they're. They're kind of building

474
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,160
a community and building like, building a.

475
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,720
Yeah. A following, so to speak. I think that's. I think that's. I had a

476
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,280
guy come in years ago with a wine called Sleeping Indian

477
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,079
with this horrible label, and the wine was average. It was all right. And he

478
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:14,600
was, you know, trying to break into the, the

479
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,400
larger world of marketing wine. And he was from Temecula. And

480
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,120
yeah, he didn't appreciate my opinion because I said, look,

481
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,800
you can't go to the street with Sleeping Indian. The label looks like your daughter

482
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,360
designed it on a computer. She just, she did. And I said, you know, I

483
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,080
go to stick. I could just stick to the local restaurants that you're already in

484
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,759
and make, you know, be happy with that. Because if you open this

485
00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:40,520
Pandora's box of marketing wine through the regular channels, it's

486
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,160
going to kill you. It's going to cost you a ton of money, and it's

487
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,000
going to be very hard to get traction. Let's switch gears a

488
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,670
little bit. You're. When I sold the company, I lost my social network and I

489
00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:54,470
lost my digital designer and I lost my audio engineer and video engineer.

490
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:58,110
And so I went to on the street myself. And so I lost my scheduler.

491
00:30:58,110 --> 00:31:01,830
I scheduled these shows that we're talking today, but I'm not going to

492
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:05,110
produce the show anymore to the extent of. I used to do the,

493
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:09,510
you know, Adobe Audition. I would use the video editor, and

494
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:13,430
I just. This just takes way, way too much time. And so I

495
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:17,160
found a Serbian audio engineer. 50

496
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,240
bucks. Okay. This guy, I use, I.

497
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,520
I use his. The example he did for me, I use all the time when

498
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,320
I hire a consultant to do this or when I look at consultants to do

499
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,280
it for me that are local. I go, if you can do this guy's kind

500
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,480
of work, like if you can improve the quality, that sounds like this guy could.

501
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,240
You don't do it for 50 bucks. But then we're on. So I sort of

502
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,170
benchmark with the people I hiring,

503
00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:45,530
but now AI is kicking in. Yes. And I've been using a lot of

504
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:49,370
AI for, for some of the production side of it that I do. And I

505
00:31:49,370 --> 00:31:52,970
have personally no problem that if, if

506
00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:56,450
my audio engineer uses the AI algorithms to fix this audio,

507
00:31:57,090 --> 00:32:00,570
more power to them, I'll pay them because I don't have the time, even with

508
00:32:00,570 --> 00:32:04,130
AI to do it. Have you seen AI creep into

509
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:08,660
the things you're doing or should be? Everything that I'm doing, yeah,

510
00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:10,620
yeah, absolutely. AI is

511
00:32:12,220 --> 00:32:15,580
a enormous topic and

512
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:19,660
something I touch every single day. So

513
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:23,020
my thought on AI as it stands is

514
00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:29,380
it is nowhere close to replacing humans. It is a

515
00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:33,020
tool that humans can use. So if someone

516
00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:35,860
who's a marketer or, sorry, if there's a wine,

517
00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:40,500
like whatever, a winery owner

518
00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:44,100
who thinks that they'll just use AI to like do their

519
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,820
marketing for them, they're in for a rude awakening because it's really like

520
00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:50,540
you still have to know what you're doing. You have to know what you're talking

521
00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:54,300
about. I use like, I mean, I pay for ChatGPT. I use the

522
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:58,100
newest version of Chat GBT and it's like always messing up

523
00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:01,940
and always getting stuff wrong. So I'm constantly having to

524
00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:05,740
like fact check it and like ask it, you know, are you sure about this?

525
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:09,660
And, and it. So it's,

526
00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:13,780
it's really limited because it's not creative necessarily.

527
00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:17,620
Like it's not generating new ideas. Net new ideas. Right. So it's

528
00:33:17,620 --> 00:33:21,300
just repeating what has already been done. So if you want to be

529
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:25,100
innovative, which you must be right now, you can't,

530
00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:29,390
you're never going to get that from an AI. You need a human who has

531
00:33:29,390 --> 00:33:33,150
experience, who loves marketing, who knows wine to help

532
00:33:33,150 --> 00:33:36,830
you. That's my thought on it. I mean, it definitely has helped though. It's made

533
00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:40,350
things much faster for me so I can do more for my clients in shorter

534
00:33:40,350 --> 00:33:43,870
amount of time, which is great. It's a win, win for

535
00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:47,150
everybody. Well, you're right. You're right. To the extent anybody thinks it's going to replace

536
00:33:47,150 --> 00:33:50,950
anything. I think everybody's intimidated by it. I was, yeah, I'm fascinated by

537
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:53,590
it now and I run into the same headaches you have.

538
00:33:55,460 --> 00:33:59,260
But it does some amazing Things, particularly for this podcast.

539
00:33:59,260 --> 00:34:03,060
I'll take this podcast and the system I'm using here, which is called Riverside,

540
00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:06,580
already has AI built into it, but it'll transcribe it, it'll pick pertinent points,

541
00:34:06,580 --> 00:34:10,380
it'll take the anecdotal moments we had and it'll summarize them and do all

542
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:13,660
kinds of things for you, which saves a lot of time. Yeah, but I was

543
00:34:13,660 --> 00:34:17,420
wondering about on the other side, like somebody runs an

544
00:34:17,420 --> 00:34:21,270
ad, let's say they got four or five pieces of creative, and you're on

545
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:24,870
Facebook or you're on Google, and

546
00:34:24,870 --> 00:34:28,510
you're trying to maximize the efficiency of the combination

547
00:34:28,510 --> 00:34:32,350
of the creative and the graphic and the messaging and the platform and the

548
00:34:32,350 --> 00:34:35,909
demographic of who gets delivered. I mean that from a human

549
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:38,950
standpoint, the permutations are endless.

550
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:43,430
AI seems to be able to run those

551
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:47,270
ads, pick the best combination, test that again,

552
00:34:47,350 --> 00:34:50,790
and then continue. Is that accurate? 100%.

553
00:34:52,150 --> 00:34:55,910
Yeah. Meta. I'm less tapped into Google Ads.

554
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:58,790
Again, not my specialty necessarily.

555
00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:03,830
Meta Ads has become so smart. There's such like,

556
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:07,110
there's a. So if you're running a campaign, if anybody's out there and listening to

557
00:35:07,110 --> 00:35:10,070
this and wants to run a campaign, you should be using

558
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:14,510
Advantage plus audiences, which is basically a broad audience. So what it

559
00:35:14,510 --> 00:35:18,130
does is you put. You build out your

560
00:35:18,130 --> 00:35:21,770
campaign, the audience that it serves it to is going to be people who are

561
00:35:22,650 --> 00:35:26,370
somewhat like, who know about your brand. So it's going to serve

562
00:35:26,370 --> 00:35:28,970
your ad to them and then it's going to move out to a broader audience

563
00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:33,210
and it's really, really smart and really, really fast. So

564
00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:37,890
it's a little, I mean, it's definitely beyond my realm

565
00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:41,210
of like, comprehension because it's so techie and it's so like.

566
00:35:41,940 --> 00:35:44,900
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's.

567
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:49,460
With all of these advances in technology, the end result for the consumer

568
00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:53,300
is. Or yeah, for like, for the people

569
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:57,020
who are doing the ads, who are paying for the ads is it's

570
00:35:57,020 --> 00:36:00,500
making the ads more effective, less expensive,

571
00:36:00,580 --> 00:36:04,260
and you're getting better results. Right. So higher return on ad spend,

572
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:08,710
lower cost per lead, etc. So going back to

573
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:12,070
that, I would have no problem if I was still selling wine to hire an

574
00:36:12,070 --> 00:36:15,630
agency that uses that to their advantage or other AI packages

575
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:19,470
to get my roas. My return on that spend higher.

576
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:23,349
Because, you know, and I would. I'm going to ask you that question in a

577
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:26,790
second. But, but there is no replacing

578
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:30,630
ni natural intelligence for the creative side and the messaging and

579
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:33,150
who you're to what you're trying to say to somebody.

580
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,520
In fact, it's very funny when I've used it to write something in regards to

581
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,280
the show and then you say, oh, make it more colloquial, make more fun. And

582
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,600
then it's like, really? That sounds really stupid. Yep.

583
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,720
Yeah. I come across this all the time. I try to use, you know, I

584
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:52,240
do organic social media and email marketing for clients and I

585
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,520
sometimes will like throw my draft into

586
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,000
ChatGPT and into AI and it sounds

587
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,640
like, insane, you know, it just. It doesn't sound natural at all.

588
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,720
So I. I don't know. Hopefully it'll change and evolve and

589
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,920
get better. But yeah,

590
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,800
it's still. It's still not there. And then there's this whole,

591
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,360
like, ethical debate. Should it be writing for people? Like, should we

592
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,920
just. I don't know. Yeah. Should it be taking all the creative

593
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,720
jobs? It's funny, I tried to have. I asked Chat GPT to make

594
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:29,230
a logo for me to today and it was like horrendous and

595
00:37:29,230 --> 00:37:32,910
kept getting it wrong. It kept like just. It was an experiment,

596
00:37:32,910 --> 00:37:36,630
something fun. And, you know, it even

597
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:39,910
got my prompt wrong. I asked it to like, remove certain things and it just

598
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:43,310
kept. Kept doing the same thing over and over again. So it's

599
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:46,590
definitely, you know, I think there's some kinks to be worked out.

600
00:37:46,830 --> 00:37:49,590
We'll see in a year from now. I'm sure it's going to be like, vastly

601
00:37:49,590 --> 00:37:53,390
different and much more smooth. But I always think it's

602
00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:56,870
going to be like there's the

603
00:37:56,870 --> 00:38:00,710
humans going. The human element will need to be involved in kind

604
00:38:00,710 --> 00:38:02,670
of using it as a tool.

605
00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:07,870
There's editing tools too, you know. Yeah, certainly sound

606
00:38:07,870 --> 00:38:11,710
editing would be a simple thing for AI to figure out. Video

607
00:38:11,710 --> 00:38:14,150
editing would be tougher. I was actually trying to find a package the other day

608
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:17,710
because you can see my studio behind me. I have three cameras here.

609
00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:21,670
There must be AI that will. That'll manage the production of a show based on.

610
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:25,260
Who's talking about, like, change the camera for you? Like switch the camera on and

611
00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:28,500
off. Yeah, probably. I don't know. But I mean, like,

612
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:32,140
photography. AI has gotten so smart too. I mean, it's like, it's so easy

613
00:38:32,140 --> 00:38:35,940
even in Canva. I mean, Canva is very entry level and I can like

614
00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:39,620
remove completely remove objects that I don't want in the photo. And it

615
00:38:39,620 --> 00:38:43,340
looks great. Canva is great. Yeah. So you mentioned something earlier and this could

616
00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:45,740
take a few minutes. We got. We're already at 40 minutes, which is hard to

617
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:49,330
believe. This is a buzzword.

618
00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:52,970
That is. It's not bothering me, but I'm trying to

619
00:38:52,970 --> 00:38:56,330
figure out what it means. And I don't think anybody knows because the definition of

620
00:38:56,330 --> 00:38:59,730
innovation itself is. Is not really

621
00:38:59,730 --> 00:39:03,570
fixed. Right. It. You can't say this is innovation.

622
00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:07,490
It's a whole subject matter in many universities, business schools,

623
00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:11,730
and on. On LinkedIn, particularly in other places. We need more innovation

624
00:39:11,730 --> 00:39:13,490
in the wine business. And you brought it up twice.

625
00:39:15,740 --> 00:39:19,580
And I have a very romantic view of wine. But what do you. What does

626
00:39:19,580 --> 00:39:23,180
that mean to you? What does innovation like? If you were to tell

627
00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:26,940
a winery, as a consultant, we need to be more innovative, are we

628
00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:30,780
talking about the marketing campaign? Are we talking about

629
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:34,780
the experience that when you get to the winery, or are we talking about

630
00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:40,230
the promotion value? Like we have to be more innovative on how we promote

631
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:44,030
or the promotions that we offer? What? Yeah. Where does that sit

632
00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:47,710
with you? I think it's all of the above. I think it's coming at

633
00:39:47,710 --> 00:39:51,550
it with a. A different mindset of

634
00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:56,190
not following the rules, but being able to break the rules. And

635
00:39:57,630 --> 00:40:01,230
it's interesting. Yeah, that is top of mind. I just wrote a post. I don't

636
00:40:01,230 --> 00:40:04,910
know if you saw it on LinkedIn, but I spoke about the New York

637
00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:08,360
Times because I was thinking about this. I was listening to the Daily, which I

638
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,880
love. It's the podcast from the New York Times. And then I, like,

639
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,720
hopped on my New York Times games app. And then

640
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,480
there was another thing that I did. Oh. And then that evening I went on

641
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,760
the New York Times cooking app and I was like, look at this newspaper.

642
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,400
This. In the world of newspapers shuttering, like,

643
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,800
closing down, closing up shop. New York Times has been able to

644
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,560
infiltrate every aspect of my life almost, you know,

645
00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:36,890
um, certainly a lot of aspects of my life. So that's innovation, right? That's

646
00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:40,610
okay. They're a newspaper. But they then started

647
00:40:40,610 --> 00:40:44,250
doing so many different things. I mean, like, that is what

648
00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:47,890
I mean when I talk about innovation. It's thinking outside

649
00:40:47,890 --> 00:40:51,690
of the box. Right. Obviously, again, comes.

650
00:40:51,930 --> 00:40:55,530
This is from. I am a marketer, so my perspective is always going to be

651
00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:59,380
in marketing, but I think innovation needs to happen at the. The product level

652
00:40:59,460 --> 00:41:03,020
too. Right. You. We talked about this on our initial

653
00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:06,500
call. Producing wine that people actually want to buy.

654
00:41:07,060 --> 00:41:10,580
You know, especially when it comes to younger people, their preferences are very different.

655
00:41:10,980 --> 00:41:14,100
So, you know, maybe producing more like

656
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:18,380
high acid white wines is what you need to be focusing on if you want

657
00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:22,060
to get a younger audience. I'm not sure if

658
00:41:22,060 --> 00:41:25,880
that's necessarily innovative, but there's, you know, there's so many other things.

659
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,440
Yeah. So I have this, I have this. Somebody brought me

660
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,600
to my attention. The wine. I won't bring up the names, but it's got the.

661
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,000
You. It's got a crown cap. And if you pop it open, there's a conversation

662
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,880
start at the top. And then if you want to write down, you know, who

663
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,360
you had the wine with. And, and I. The comment I made this morning was,

664
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,080
but doesn't that presuppose that the wine inside actually is

665
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,000
a conversation starter in itself? In other words, you want to drink it

666
00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:54,770
rather than the fact that it has a crown cap and a question on the

667
00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:58,450
bottom and rather that you can write your, your, your, your.

668
00:41:58,450 --> 00:42:01,970
The company you're with and the subjects you were talking about and save that sticker.

669
00:42:02,210 --> 00:42:05,810
I mean, it wasn't that long ago where my dad used to sell these

670
00:42:05,890 --> 00:42:09,730
large pieces of tape and you would wrap the bottle with

671
00:42:09,730 --> 00:42:12,890
it and then you pull it off and it. And off came the label and

672
00:42:12,890 --> 00:42:16,250
you would save that in your book. I mean, who does that anymore? Nobody. Nobody

673
00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:19,690
really does that anymore. Is that innovation? I. I don't know. Is packaging

674
00:42:19,690 --> 00:42:22,970
innovation? I think innovation.

675
00:42:24,970 --> 00:42:28,490
Go ahead. Like, I think of innovation as maybe being a little bit more

676
00:42:29,370 --> 00:42:32,330
deep than that or like meaningful than that.

677
00:42:32,970 --> 00:42:35,730
And I don't, I don't know if maybe there's like a big meaning behind that,

678
00:42:35,730 --> 00:42:38,730
but something that would be innovative is like, I've seen

679
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:41,770
these, I've seen wine pouches recently.

680
00:42:43,290 --> 00:42:46,890
So like a eco friendly way of

681
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,920
producing wine. Obviously boxed wine is a big thing too.

682
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,160
And why are they doing that? They're not doing it just because, like they love

683
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,320
wine in a box. No, they're doing it because it's more like, it's,

684
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,000
it's more eco friendly. Right. So it's more sustainable. Those

685
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,640
are like innovative things that aren't gimmicky. That I actually

686
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,120
do think, especially younger generations really care about sustainability.

687
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:13,630
Then we can talk about like organic wine. Right. I mean that's,

688
00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:18,780
that can be innovative. If you think about Virginia, I think it's

689
00:43:18,780 --> 00:43:22,620
pretty innovative that they're starting to use hybrids and try to

690
00:43:22,620 --> 00:43:26,020
get that on the map because it is more sustainable, it is easier to grow

691
00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:31,300
and we need more things like that, especially as the climate starts to

692
00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:36,260
warm. Right. It's becoming really challenging, especially in

693
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:38,820
Virginia. And I'm sure out west fires and

694
00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:44,470
I find that interesting. I had this conversation I had with Keith Sirlos of

695
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:46,990
Sorrows Wines and brilliant young man

696
00:43:47,950 --> 00:43:51,150
and he says we're talking about

697
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:55,190
sustainability. I think Wine. The wine industry truly is one of the great industries

698
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:58,590
of the world that can promote and be more sustainable

699
00:43:58,670 --> 00:44:01,790
than virtually anything else just for the nature of the business.

700
00:44:02,350 --> 00:44:04,990
But he looked at me and he goes, you know, you know that a glass

701
00:44:05,590 --> 00:44:09,150
was one sand. Well, that's a good point. And you know that a

702
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:11,950
cork is a piece of a tree. I go, yeah, that's true. And he goes,

703
00:44:11,950 --> 00:44:14,350
you know, that label was a piece of a tree as a. Was also a

704
00:44:14,350 --> 00:44:17,950
tree. I'm like, wait a minute, we're already, you know, we're already

705
00:44:17,950 --> 00:44:21,709
recycling items into what's, what's currently the most

706
00:44:21,709 --> 00:44:25,350
traditional vessel for wine.

707
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:29,470
And I thought that was kind of an interesting take on it. I

708
00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:32,950
personally don't see packaging wine

709
00:44:33,110 --> 00:44:36,910
as an innovation. In fact, I had a gentleman on, on the

710
00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:40,430
show that his job at Cornell University is to find a food

711
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:44,190
grade lining for a can of wine that lasts

712
00:44:44,190 --> 00:44:47,750
longer than the current version, which is like nine to 10 months. And

713
00:44:48,070 --> 00:44:50,950
that just sounds gross to me. I mean, you know, that just doesn't sound

714
00:44:51,590 --> 00:44:55,350
though. And his argument is, hey, the aluminum. Yeah,

715
00:44:55,350 --> 00:44:58,870
aluminum can's got, you know, 10 times the,

716
00:44:58,870 --> 00:45:02,470
the carbon. Less of the carbon footprint than the bottle does. Okay,

717
00:45:02,860 --> 00:45:06,380
I'll buy that. But it doesn't. You can't run the whole industry around those

718
00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:10,380
metrics because that's not what the product is. Eventually the product has

719
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:14,020
its ethera value to the human soul and I think that's what we

720
00:45:14,020 --> 00:45:17,540
have to, to manage. But there was another innovation that came up in

721
00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:21,340
Bordeaux which I thought was more down the line of what I think.

722
00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:25,140
And she female directors directus

723
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:28,780
of Chateau Bailly in this winery they built

724
00:45:29,860 --> 00:45:33,620
is crazy innovative. And so what for

725
00:45:33,620 --> 00:45:37,220
instance, what they did is they took their concrete tanks and they built them

726
00:45:37,220 --> 00:45:41,020
vertical so they're a story high almost. And then they built

727
00:45:41,020 --> 00:45:44,780
a platform on top of them. And on that platform you can open the top

728
00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:47,100
of the tank and do what you got to do, but you can seal it

729
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:50,860
and you can serve a dinner virtually as

730
00:45:50,860 --> 00:45:54,580
you're sitting on top of these tanks. Yeah. Wow. Along with the fact

731
00:45:54,580 --> 00:45:58,380
that created a whole barrel room underneath in between the taste. So I'm

732
00:45:58,380 --> 00:46:02,180
like, wow, that's really cool. Innovation. Yeah. You

733
00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:06,020
know the term experiential innovation, like the experience for the

734
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:09,500
buyer and the visitor was very innovative.

735
00:46:10,220 --> 00:46:13,820
Yeah. And I think there's definitely room for a lot of innovation when it comes

736
00:46:13,820 --> 00:46:17,340
to creating more experiences in the world of

737
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:20,540
wine, especially like Virginia is a little

738
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:24,980
funny. We don't do like wine tours, so people aren't

739
00:46:24,980 --> 00:46:28,760
Necessarily, like going into the wine cellar or anything like that.

740
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,800
It's bizarre. It's almost like. Yeah, yeah. I. I mean, there's

741
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,520
a few that will do that, but the standard

742
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,960
is you go. You do a tasting at a bar

743
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,400
or like, at your table, and then you enjoy wine with some

744
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,920
snacks and the view. So I think that there's definitely

745
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,680
storytelling going on there. Is there storytelling going on in

746
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,360
the. If you are doing a.

747
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,060
If you're doing a tasting and. And you're

748
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:01,660
interested in that, then. Yes. And, you know, obviously you have a good tasting room

749
00:47:01,660 --> 00:47:05,260
person, then you are getting, you know, then they're. They're the

750
00:47:05,260 --> 00:47:09,100
storytellers. But I don't. I mean, I

751
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:12,939
don't think this is a great way to present the winery.

752
00:47:12,939 --> 00:47:16,380
I think that there would be, you know, I think tours through

753
00:47:16,940 --> 00:47:20,620
the vineyards and in, you know, the winemaking facilities would

754
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:24,450
be better. But I think. I don't know why there's. It's

755
00:47:24,450 --> 00:47:28,250
just not. It doesn't happen. Maybe it's smaller facilities. I'm not sure. It's

756
00:47:28,250 --> 00:47:31,810
just not set up for that. That's

757
00:47:31,810 --> 00:47:35,570
fascinating. Yeah, that's. Exactly. That's. You think? So they would

758
00:47:35,570 --> 00:47:39,410
start with. I'm sure there's. I mean, I know that there

759
00:47:39,410 --> 00:47:43,210
are some. That. Yeah. Do it, but. And

760
00:47:43,210 --> 00:47:47,010
some special events. I did see. There's one, like, one winery around

761
00:47:47,010 --> 00:47:50,570
here. They're not a client of mine, but they. They do some really amazing events.

762
00:47:50,570 --> 00:47:53,980
They had a. Their anniversary

763
00:47:54,060 --> 00:47:57,780
party, and they skew, like, younger. I mean, their owners are,

764
00:47:57,780 --> 00:48:01,340
like, in their 30s or 40s, I want to say. And

765
00:48:01,580 --> 00:48:04,540
so they. They seem to attract a younger audience.

766
00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:10,380
And they did, like, they. They had a party and they had a DJ

767
00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:13,820
and lights and like, it was like a club

768
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:18,500
in this vineyard. It was something I'd never seen. You know, you go to a

769
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:22,220
vineyard, the typical vineyard is going to have, like, an acoustic guitar, like,

770
00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:25,900
snooze. This was, like, really, really, really fun.

771
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:29,820
Really, really cool and memorable. Right. So I think if you can create more

772
00:48:29,820 --> 00:48:33,300
of those experiences, of course they need to be authentic to you. If you're, like

773
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:36,900
a winery owner or if you're, you know, if your patrons

774
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:40,540
aren't interested in that, then, like, that's not the right move. But

775
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:43,340
I think that those are small ways to innovate.

776
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:47,580
Well, that's a good point. We'll kind of wrap it up here. But

777
00:48:48,580 --> 00:48:52,020
I had dinner the other night. I think I told you about it. We didn't

778
00:48:52,020 --> 00:48:55,540
even get to this subject. Oh, my God. Oh, no. That's the inspiration of all

779
00:48:55,540 --> 00:48:58,340
this. I'm about to do it in the next one, but I had a great

780
00:48:58,340 --> 00:49:01,540
conversation with a, with a guy that saw him at a steakhouse and,

781
00:49:02,020 --> 00:49:05,500
and I was telling my guy, you know, I'm just tired of. I don't even

782
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,300
go to Ruth's Chris for a long time or Fleming's around these giant old school

783
00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,980
steakhouses where you get creamed spinach and creamed corn and you got a

784
00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:16,610
baked potato. I don't enjoy that anymore. It used to be. No, you know,

785
00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:20,250
the, it would be the height of aristocracy to be able to do that. I

786
00:49:20,250 --> 00:49:24,010
don't like it. And he goes, well, we're the, we're called BOA Steakhouse. And

787
00:49:24,010 --> 00:49:27,690
he goes, we're slammed. And I go, why? He goes, because what

788
00:49:27,690 --> 00:49:31,090
you just said, it's a club. He goes, the

789
00:49:31,090 --> 00:49:34,530
Lakers, you know, the basketball team. He goes, they'll call us when their game's over

790
00:49:34,530 --> 00:49:37,610
and say, stay open a little longer. Here are the wines we want to drink.

791
00:49:37,610 --> 00:49:40,970
We're coming over. That's how a destination the

792
00:49:40,970 --> 00:49:44,810
steakhouse has become. And I thought, okay, I'm an old guy, so. And

793
00:49:44,810 --> 00:49:48,570
I have to keep an open mind on all this. And I think you nailed

794
00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:51,890
it. It's that generation that is coming into this

795
00:49:51,970 --> 00:49:55,250
fold, and we have to be flexible enough to understand

796
00:49:55,570 --> 00:49:58,770
and hopefully figure it out. Now, I know there's lots of studies about Gen Z

797
00:49:58,770 --> 00:50:01,130
and X and all that and what they're drinking. I mean, I'm not sure I

798
00:50:01,130 --> 00:50:04,770
buy all of that, but the idea is they're different baby

799
00:50:04,770 --> 00:50:08,020
boomers, different than Gen Z's and X's and millennials. And

800
00:50:08,420 --> 00:50:11,380
the experiential part has to cater to that, I think.

801
00:50:12,420 --> 00:50:16,180
Yeah, yeah, agreed. I mean, I think a lot. Yeah,

802
00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:19,380
we, we could have a whole nother episode on the generational,

803
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:25,420
you know, the how each generation is responding to

804
00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:28,340
wine differently. But,

805
00:50:29,540 --> 00:50:33,220
you know, I'm a millennial, so I think I sit in a really good

806
00:50:33,220 --> 00:50:36,750
position to help wineries attract

807
00:50:36,750 --> 00:50:40,350
that younger. And I hate to say this, but middle

808
00:50:40,350 --> 00:50:42,910
age range of people,

809
00:50:44,430 --> 00:50:47,390
my birthday, those are the days. But

810
00:50:47,950 --> 00:50:51,550
yeah, I know. I'm like. But anyway, so

811
00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:55,790
there's, there's a whole. Yeah, we could do that. We

812
00:50:55,790 --> 00:50:59,590
will make that a separate episode. And we're at 52 minutes, so we're

813
00:50:59,590 --> 00:51:03,020
wrapping it up. It was such a. I enjoy speaking with you just because

814
00:51:03,820 --> 00:51:07,540
the perspective is fresh and important part of

815
00:51:07,540 --> 00:51:10,700
what we do. And you have to convince

816
00:51:11,180 --> 00:51:14,540
the farmers and the winemakers of the world and even young

817
00:51:14,540 --> 00:51:18,380
entrepreneurs that didn't understand this part of our industry that it's important

818
00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:20,420
to do. And so I wish all the luck in the world with this. And

819
00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:24,060
I hope I can help you in the future. You know, any,

820
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:27,340
any experience I've stumbled across, I mean, stumbled

821
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,800
so well. I mean, I'll riddle you this. Are there

822
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,080
any wineries that haven't marketed well that are like

823
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,480
doing great or that you think will withstand the test of time?

824
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,560
I don't think there are. I think you have to be marketing in order to

825
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,400
do well. You have to market. And it's very interesting because I

826
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,200
just. This, this part, I have to be careful what I say because

827
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,000
I don't want anybody listening. But

828
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:59,000
one of the great chateau of France hired one of the big

829
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,840
PR firms. And this kills me about PR in general.

830
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,880
And so, and I know the girl that was put on the job

831
00:52:08,999 --> 00:52:12,720
and I thought to myself is really, I said, you are a

832
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:16,440
grand chateau. And so you reached out to

833
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,520
one of the great communication firms in America to

834
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,310
market your brand, which I think on the surface would seem like a

835
00:52:24,310 --> 00:52:27,630
good idea. But when they shove it down to the root level,

836
00:52:27,790 --> 00:52:31,510
entry level PR person who doesn't

837
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:35,070
know anything about what you do, and you can't possibly

838
00:52:36,350 --> 00:52:40,190
convey the history that this chateau brings with it

839
00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:44,590
unless you have a, a passionate view of the wine business.

840
00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:48,110
And I thought, how sad. You know, that's misguided,

841
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,720
but you're right. Yeah. To answer your question, here's this great chateau that's been

842
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,560
reaching out, you know, for, for traditional pr. So I think

843
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,640
that has to happen. Yeah. Yeah.

844
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,440
And it is unfortunate. When you work with a bigger agency, that can happen. You

845
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,280
know, you definitely. This is, I've seen this with clients who've come to me

846
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,960
saying, like, they don't understand wine I'm working with, you know,

847
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,640
especially when we think about meta ads. You talk to a meta ads agency. A

848
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,460
lot of these people don't know. They don't know about wine. And you

849
00:53:19,460 --> 00:53:22,860
can't hire a marketer who doesn't understand wine. You just can't.

850
00:53:23,660 --> 00:53:27,100
You really need to. Yeah. So working with a more boutique

851
00:53:27,100 --> 00:53:30,740
agency really gives you like, I think the best of both worlds

852
00:53:30,740 --> 00:53:34,540
because, you know, while we have smaller resources, at least, like we have

853
00:53:34,540 --> 00:53:38,220
more experience on your account, you know what I mean? And more

854
00:53:38,220 --> 00:53:41,220
hands on your account. And you're definitely going to get more care with a smaller

855
00:53:41,220 --> 00:53:45,030
agency. You don't get to say I'm with so and so, but it doesn't matter

856
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:47,990
because all you care about is that people see what you're doing. If you're making

857
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:50,310
money, you'll be happy. Yeah. Right.

858
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:55,110
Pleasure to speak. I'll let you know when this is released and

859
00:53:55,830 --> 00:53:59,430
we'll do it again. All right, Sounds great. Take care.

860
00:54:08,310 --> 00:54:11,540
Thank you for listening to Wine Talks with Paul Callum. Karen, don't forget to

861
00:54:11,770 --> 00:54:15,450
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks.

862
00:54:15,610 --> 00:54:18,730
Have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.