How Time, Terroir, and Biodynamics Shape World-Class Sparkling Wines in Penedès

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Our philosophy, making a sparkling wine is long aging. We're

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sitting on a library of sparkling wine that goes back to

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the 30s. The aging we give to our wines is an

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average of five years and more. So we're never in a hurry

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because we believe time is crafting our wines,

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and we need to wait, to be patient for the time to make the

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magic and give the complexity that we're looking for.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks

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with Paul K. Hey,

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welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in beautiful

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Southern California, about to have a conversation with Anna Lopez from Ramona

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Winery, all the way from Panetta, Spain. Hey, have a

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listen. Or in about 10 days. Well, I can't say that

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exactly, but a new podcast is coming out called Song of

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Stories of Immigration to the United States. Stories of

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academic success, financial, social, or political success.

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Some incredible stories already being told. Listen to that. But not why we're here.

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We're here to welcome Anna Lopez from

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Gramona Winery. Now, I don't. I don't think I'd ever tasted these

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wines before. I know, and they're fabulous. I'm

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happy you did, and I'm happy I was the one showing them to you. How

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about that? I mean, I'll tell

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you why. And we're get into it right now because kava, I think

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listeners that drink sparkling wine, champagne,

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you know, Prosecco, whatever, may not

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totally understand the dynamic of sparkling wine when it comes to the

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world, but it seems like everybody's got one

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these days. So. And you said it's not

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cava. Not anymore. What was it? Well,

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started making sparkling wine cava in the 20s,

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in 1920s. Back then, the Kaaba didn't exist

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as a do, as an appellation. Didn't

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exist. Exists in 1985,

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is when Cava becomes a do. But the

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do, Cava was not about the region. It's not

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about the. It was more about the method.

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So, majority of cavas made in Catalonia, where

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Barcelona is. But it was possible also to make

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cava in Rioja, Valencia,

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in Extremadura. Extremadura is like a day

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driving away. So explain that, though, for the lay of the land,

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because I tell this to people all the time. Your

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geography becomes so obvious when you study

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wine, right? But you study in school, nobody cares, right? You don't pay

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attention. But all of a sudden, when it comes to wine, you start to realize

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what's going on. And so kava is not a piece of real estate,

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or it is a piece of real estate. It is a piece of ground, no?

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Or it's just that. It's more about the method. It's a method and

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the varieties that are allowed to be used. The method is the

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traditional method. Method champanoise. So that's second fermentation in the

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bottle. That's mandatory for Cava. It is, but it's

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not about the origin, it's not about the land. So

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it's possible to make cava, like I was saying before, in very different places

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of Spain, with thousands of kilometers away.

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So we didn't feel like Cava was

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representing our values. Cava was not

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representing our objective. At

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Gramona, yes, at Cremona.

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So we pick up the phone, it was 2018,

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and start calling other wineries or size family wineries like

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us, in the same valley of Penades. The ballet of

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Penades is driving south from Barcelona, that

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is in the Mediterranean, takes about 45 minutes.

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It's not far. This valley of Penades

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used to be underwater, used to be part of the Mediterranean Sea

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11 million years ago. You know, it takes

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generations to make wine, right? That's considered a young soil.

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Yes, because there are other parts of soil near penadeus that are 60

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million years old. That's crazy. But Penades is as a

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young ballet, and that's where

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we make our wines. So we start calling other wineries

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in the same ballet. Like, how do you feel in Cava?

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Do you think Cava represents who you are, represents your values,

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what you want to do with wine? And these

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small wineries, they start saying, well, actually,

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no, not really. Because the concept of

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Cava is too broad to big, you know?

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So we got together with 3, 4, 5,

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8, 9 wineries, and we said, why don't we do something

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together that represents what we do in this valley of

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Penades, with sparkling wine, with our local varieties.

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So we established some rules that we follow

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when we produce wine. Some rules. We were all

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comfortable, very strict rules to elevate the

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concept of Spanish sparkling wine, and found

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a name for it, which is corpinat.

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That is on the bottle. Corpinat. Corpinat.

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Corpinat means born in the heart of penedes.

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So cor in Catalan. Catalan is our local language.

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We speak Spanish, but our original language is Catalan.

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So cor means heart. Penedes

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comes from the word pinay, from pine. And nat

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means born in Catalan. So born in the heart of

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Penades. So to be a corpinade

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means being from this valley of Penades,

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being 100% organic, being 100% picked by

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hand. It's possible to buy fruit

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always. Well, 90% has to be local, historic

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varieties. So that's Cerelo, Macabeo, Parallada.

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But whenever we buy fruit, we elevate the cost of

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fruit three times because we want to give value,

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we want to support the local grape

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growers. How long has this corporate nat been around?

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So in 2018, we started this

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group. In 2019, we registered Coppinat in

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Brussels like a warranty brand. And then we went to the

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Teocaba and said, look, we thought about this concept

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and in that moment the Acaba was not ready for it. We're going to accept

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that. I would say that's not happening. It was not

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in the plans. Who are these rebel

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rouser upstarts trying to upend the Kaava

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appellation? Well, we didn't want to abandon it at the beginning. We just wanted it

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to be like the top of the pyramid of Kaava.

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But the deal, Kaaba didn't accept this project.

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So we all decided to step out of Kaapa the same day.

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So it was a big thing.

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Okay, I'm going to freeze you there for. Just hold it, hold it, hold on.

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Now just. This is happening other places

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like Saint Emilion, where they tighten the screws a little bit

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on what it meant. And it seems to be the

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same resistance to

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the original rules of the appellation. In this case Cava, in their

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case Santa Milion. And these upstarts or these not

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upstarts, they're older wineries, but they decided.

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You decided. You're not defining what's coming out

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of the Panettas, at least that part of Panettas properly

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under the appellation that exists. And so

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we're just going to do our own now we've established that the

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old guard doesn't like this idea. Has

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the consumer learned about this? Well,

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it's been now six, seven years since we're doing

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this corpinato, which is young in the world.

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And we are really small wineries. Some wineries make

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10,000 bottles. So it's very small projects,

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really high quality, but very small productions. So we

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don't have marketing budgets

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or tools. It's basically ourselves, like I'm doing

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today, explaining that to you so your followers, your

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audience can learn for the first time about Copinat. So

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it's slowly first targeting the wine

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lovers, the wine professionals, but not the

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general consumer because we don't have the capacity. That's a

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tall order. I mean, I can see in Penites or that part of

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Spain possibly getting Traction

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with this idea would be a little easier, but you're already up

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against all kinds of problems and

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headwinds in America, for sure. The shelf is full of

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cavas. There's the low end Kavas that everybody buys,

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which I don't care for. They're bitter and they don't represent anything.

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And here you are trying to, trying to break into that.

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I know, it's like David fighting

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in the wide world. Yeah, the movie just came out, you know. Exactly.

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And without a marketing budget, I mean, no, no,

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we don't have the umbrella of any government.

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No government support, nothing. It's just ourselves supporting this

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concept. So, yes, it's slowly. It's not

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going very fast. But every time more and more restaurants

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have a corpina section. For example, Celler

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Can Roca in Spain with three star Michelin, it's been the number one

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restaurant of the world for many, many years. As a corpina section in the list.

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Well, there's. So let me ask you this question then, because based on what I

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just tasted, there's a certain elegance and complexity

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and world class

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character about the wines compared to. And like I'm saying,

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I've tasted a lot of kava over my years. I would

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have never gone to the market or ordered one at a restaurant. I

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would always opt for something else if I was looking for sparkling,

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because I never really thought they were that pedigree or they're always

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hard sometimes, or they're bitter. And here comes this.

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And I'm like, well, this is very. Not only it's

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made like Champagne, but it has the structure

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and the complexity. Made with indigenous

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grapes. Yes. One of the rules has to be

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90% indigenous grapes and within a few years will

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be 100% indigenous grapes. I have to tell you that all the

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coconuts together, we're speaking about 25 million

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bottles and majority of it, 85%

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of these wines are consumed internally in

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Spain, so. Oh, really? So,

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well, thank you for coming here and telling us about it. We can't get it.

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No, you can't, of course, but it's like this. You find it

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more in Spain than out of Spain. Those are pretty old

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wineries, but most of them, or all of them now that I

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think are family wineries. And

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our objective is to defend and to show

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Spain and the world that, that we are able, we really

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believe in the quality of top sparkling wine in our

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valet. And that's what we live for. Well, it's. You're.

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From what I tasted, you've arrived there and of course it Just gets better

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with time. And sparkling wine. Not the

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largest segment of the wine drinking public. Champagne's struggling right

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now. Of course, the prices are crazy. I thought the prices here were very fair.

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At least the wholesale prices and the elevated

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quality of the wine was obvious. So

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how is the group handling that? First of all, you don't have a.

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Has any part of the government acknowledged

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copy? Not well, it's a registered brand

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in Europe. Yes, but from the Spanish government.

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So far we didn't apply to be a do.

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We didn't apply yet because we're still

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very young. We started being nine wineries, but we got a lot of

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support from the other wineries in our region. And now we are

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22 wineries. It's all contiguous. Like

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the area. It has to be in this valley. Only in the

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Valley of Penades. It cannot be from other parts of

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Spain or Catalonia, only from this little valley. So we're all very close

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in distance. So in America, if you're too create a new

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appellation. And probably the most recent would be

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Petaluma Gap, which is a valley in Northern California that

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runs east west compared to the typical north south.

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And it's, you know, it's a considerable effort to.

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To get the government to acknowledge this. And one of the things you have to

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prove is there a considerable effect

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of the terroir, whether it's the weather, the soil that

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differentiates you from your neighbors. Is that

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possible with Copenhagen? Yes.

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We've been doing a lot, especially Acremona. The last

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year we've done a really deep study of our soil.

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We've taken over 200 samples of

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soil by dragging holes or taking that with a

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saunder, with a tube. We put it in

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the soil and get like a snail, not

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a snail, like a worm of dirt. Oh yeah. We can

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see all the different. All the layers. To study

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what kind of soils and why it's different from other soils. Like I

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was telling you, this used to be underwater. So it's

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sedimentation. Soils with a lot of like

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shells, fossils of shells. The

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time when it was used to be a sea. A lot of carbonate, calcic

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and clay. So it's a lot of different variability.

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Don't you wonder what happened? All that water, like where I grew up, where I

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grew up in the beach here, if you look down the coast, you can see

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the different tiers where the different water level was. My parents built the house in

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1964. We found shells and

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fossils of fish in the soil. I just found that

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fascinating and what that does to the quality of the soil.

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Yeah. Which is kind of wine geek stuff, but it really is what

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creates what the consumer is tasting. Right. It's what

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this is telling us is from a sense of place. What was it about

240
00:14:58,490 --> 00:15:01,890
Kava then, that. That you

241
00:15:02,130 --> 00:15:05,490
rejected eventually, that it didn't represent

242
00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:09,250
a time and place. It didn't represent a group of.

243
00:15:09,570 --> 00:15:13,420
Not a group, but a. A strict rule, set of rules that would help

244
00:15:13,420 --> 00:15:16,780
express the wine. Well, at that point in

245
00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:20,460
2018, 2019, the Dio Cava didn't accept

246
00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:23,900
differentiation from the origin, from the

247
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,900
location. Cava was Cava. It could only be

248
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,540
distinguished in reserva, gran Reserva,

249
00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:35,100
Brut, Brut, natur, but not the origin.

250
00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:38,940
So you could make a cava in our town

251
00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:43,540
with grapes from another town, kilometers away,

252
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:47,940
and they didn't. And now it's different. And I think

253
00:15:48,420 --> 00:15:52,100
because we left Cava, Cava realized they needed to acknowledge

254
00:15:52,260 --> 00:15:56,100
the origin of the soils of the wines.

255
00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:00,100
So now it's different. And I think we help for that

256
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,780
to happen because now it's possible to find cavas

257
00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:07,460
with origin, Barcelona origin, Valencia origin, all the

258
00:16:07,460 --> 00:16:11,120
different parts of Cava. But at that time they didn't

259
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,800
allow to show geographic. Geographic

260
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,400
origin, just Ca and the name of the town.

261
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,800
So that kind of leads into. You don't have a marketing

262
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,400
budget. And I'm dealing with this with the

263
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,240
Armenian wine trade as well. And they're just watched the video that we made

264
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,720
last last year. And there's distinctive

265
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,010
regions in Armenia as well. Yes. And. But the

266
00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:41,490
headwinds are in many. In most countries like this. And

267
00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:44,930
I'm sure it's. Here is how do we get the consumer.

268
00:16:46,450 --> 00:16:50,210
It's a slow process. For one, here you are traveling the world,

269
00:16:50,290 --> 00:16:53,890
talking to on podcasts and hosting dinners and going to

270
00:16:53,890 --> 00:16:57,010
Korean barbecue. And so. But

271
00:16:59,570 --> 00:17:03,010
it's so slow. But it seems so necessary

272
00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:06,809
to advanced wine. Yes. Because

273
00:17:07,689 --> 00:17:10,809
I think we've been washed out in generic junk.

274
00:17:11,369 --> 00:17:14,929
I know, I know. Well, this brand is

275
00:17:14,929 --> 00:17:18,529
22 wineries that form corpinade. They are very well

276
00:17:18,529 --> 00:17:22,249
known locally. Exports, of course, are important

277
00:17:22,409 --> 00:17:25,209
because you don't want to sell all the apples in the same

278
00:17:26,249 --> 00:17:29,609
basket. Basket. But it's not the

279
00:17:29,609 --> 00:17:33,449
priority number one for these wineries to be known in

280
00:17:33,449 --> 00:17:36,830
every country in the world, which like baby

281
00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:40,310
steps being known locally in Catalonia, in Spain,

282
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:44,430
doing things like this to speak about it. In a couple of weeks

283
00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:47,430
time, we're going to do a presentation event

284
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:51,990
in Korea, in Seoul. Really? Wow. Seoul, Korea,

285
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:56,310
South Korea. We did another one last year

286
00:17:56,710 --> 00:18:00,470
in Amsterdam. So it's like Small events

287
00:18:00,470 --> 00:18:03,910
normally focused on wine professionals,

288
00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:06,200
wine students and

289
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,680
people, that is, got a little higher knowledge about wine

290
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,920
and we're not in a hurry. But it's step by step, never

291
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,760
step back, always step forward. I like that.

292
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,880
You know, it's interesting the way you're doing that. And I think it's

293
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,800
completely necessary that you start with

294
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,120
people in the trade, right? You start with the psalms.

295
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,880
They may never see the wine maybe for a couple years after they taste it.

296
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,480
You go to Seoul, South Korea, and you taste wines with people. But,

297
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,440
you know, when are they going to see the wine on the shelf? When are

298
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,200
they going to see the wine on their wine list is probably a little bit

299
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,560
of time. Well, we see countries where we already have

300
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,360
presence, not Maybe not the 22 wineries, but maybe 10

301
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:54,080
of the wineries have presents. So we do events where we already

302
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,480
have presence in the market, in restaurants and shops, because I believe

303
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,080
our troubles in this industry, there are. There's a reason,

304
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,480
there's lots of reasons why. And we won't get into that boring subject.

305
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,410
But the recovery from that, I

306
00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:12,490
think goes back to the roots of wine, which is this

307
00:19:12,730 --> 00:19:16,370
extraordinary experience when it's properly made and represents a

308
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:19,970
time and a place and represents some innovation in the

309
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:22,970
vineyard and at the winery to express itself.

310
00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:27,890
And going to Seoul, South Korea, and sitting down with people

311
00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:31,690
saying, you need to taste this. But that's slow, you know, it's

312
00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:34,650
just really slow. Well, you know, in Ramona, we've been

313
00:19:35,530 --> 00:19:39,270
working making sparkling wine for over a hundred years. We're not in

314
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:42,630
a hurry. Yeah, well, I guess that's true. Our

315
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:46,430
philosophy making a sparkling wine is long aging. We're sitting

316
00:19:46,430 --> 00:19:50,150
on a library of sparkling wine that goes back to the

317
00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:53,710
30s. The aging we give to our wines is an

318
00:19:53,710 --> 00:19:57,470
average of five years and more. So we're never in a

319
00:19:57,470 --> 00:20:01,310
hurry because we believe time is crafting

320
00:20:01,310 --> 00:20:04,950
all wines and we need to wait to be patient for the time

321
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:09,500
to make the magic and give the complexity that we're looking for.

322
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:12,540
So that five years is a function of

323
00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:18,700
copinat, or is it a function of your winery? No, in our

324
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:22,380
philosophy it's been always very, very long aging since the

325
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,740
50s. So the first long age sparkling

326
00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:29,780
wine we released was 1951. And it was

327
00:20:29,780 --> 00:20:33,550
very different because back then, majority

328
00:20:33,550 --> 00:20:37,150
and still nowadays, majority of sparkling wines are very young. Not all in

329
00:20:37,150 --> 00:20:40,550
Spain, in many places, but Ramona, since the 50s,

330
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:44,750
decided that was the way. They only wanted to

331
00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:48,270
release long aging sparkling wine. And this happened

332
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:51,990
because in Spain we went through a civil war in the 30s,

333
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:56,110
that was not very good for sales for no one. Typically that's not good for

334
00:20:56,110 --> 00:20:59,510
sales, Right. Followed by the Second World War.

335
00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:04,260
And those were really difficult times. There was a

336
00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:07,620
lot of mystery in Spain. What happened? Let me stop there for a second.

337
00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:11,540
We know that in the World War I, they devastated

338
00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:15,540
champagne. Some vineyards are still unplantable because of the phosphorus

339
00:21:15,619 --> 00:21:19,420
bombs. World War II, they had a different story. You know,

340
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:22,940
Hitler wanted to protect all the vineyards because he wanted this 80,000

341
00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:25,940
bottle cellar that he created at Eagle's Nest.

342
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,560
Was Spain affected? Was the wine trade affected by the war? Or just

343
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,920
the fact that consumers were not well, there was no

344
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,720
consumers drinking much wine in those days. And there was a lot of

345
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,720
misery and poverty. So the family, Ramona,

346
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,040
Bartumeo and Eusebuis, who's still alive and is

347
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,880
96 years old, decided to hide and seal

348
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,120
the caves, or caves go three floors

349
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,970
underground, full packed of bottles of sparkling wine.

350
00:21:55,210 --> 00:21:58,930
And as those were very difficult times, they decided to

351
00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:02,410
hide, seal and hide all the stocks

352
00:22:03,130 --> 00:22:06,490
and wait for the wars to finish. So after the

353
00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:10,210
Civil war, after the Second World War, 15 years, those caves were

354
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:13,530
sealed. Wow. So these two brothers went down,

355
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,370
opened the caves, start tasting,

356
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:21,300
wondering about the wine. They had no experience about

357
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:24,980
aging sparkling wine, and they realized

358
00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:28,740
that wine was a lot better. The aging had been super

359
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:31,860
interesting for the wine because we have this grape called

360
00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:35,300
Charello that only grows in the valley of Penadeus,

361
00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:39,300
that has a really great aging potential and has made

362
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:43,140
this magic those days. After the Second War, the

363
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:46,980
demand of sparkling wine was really high because the world wanted to

364
00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:50,760
celebrate the end of the war. And a lot of wineries in Champagne had

365
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,560
been bumped or robbed. So a lot of wine

366
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,280
people, from the day the

367
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,960
trade came to a region, knocking on doors to see if anyone has

368
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,520
anything with bubbles that we can sell. Because back

369
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,280
then the Cava didn't exist. For example, the appellations were very

370
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,960
not as strict as now. So that's when

371
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,240
the brothers, the Ramona brothers, decided we would never

372
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,010
make young sparkling wine again. That's so interesting. And it was the first long age

373
00:23:21,010 --> 00:23:24,690
sparkling wine. And this story I tell you, and this story is still

374
00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:28,610
in the history of the Tio Cava website. They acknowledge that

375
00:23:28,610 --> 00:23:31,890
Gramora was the first long aging sparkling wine Spain

376
00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:35,490
with chiarello and macabeo. And we still make that wine

377
00:23:35,650 --> 00:23:39,330
75 years later. This year we celebrate 75

378
00:23:39,330 --> 00:23:42,970
years of this wine that we call Tres Lustros. That deserves a

379
00:23:42,970 --> 00:23:46,650
congratulations, I think. How old is wine

380
00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:49,170
in Spain? I Mean, like I had Mr.

381
00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:54,350
Alvarez on the show from Vegas. Ca.

382
00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:58,430
Yes. Recently, you know, I have a good friend

383
00:23:58,430 --> 00:24:01,550
who's a master sommelier who makes wine in puret.

384
00:24:02,030 --> 00:24:05,390
But as an industry, is it ancient? Like.

385
00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:09,630
Well, the wine arrived in to Spain from the Greeks.

386
00:24:09,630 --> 00:24:12,590
Yeah. Oh, so it was pretty old. Yeah. Some people,

387
00:24:13,630 --> 00:24:16,900
historically, I always heard that arrived from

388
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:20,580
Greece to the coast, Mediterranean coast,

389
00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:25,340
what now is called Costa Brava Ampuria.

390
00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:28,940
Costa Ampuria, there's a very ancient Greek city

391
00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:32,420
where they found the remains of these wine vessels.

392
00:24:33,220 --> 00:24:36,820
But I also hear that it came from the south of Spain. The Greek

393
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,540
went down to the south of Spain from Andalusia and

394
00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:44,060
went through there. So one of the two. But it's from the Greek

395
00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:47,760
days. They bring the plants and the vines. When

396
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,560
I did this series of shows that come out this month in.

397
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,640
In Armenia, one of them. I start with the idea that

398
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,240
proper wine, and I call them honest wines now, it's not a new term, but

399
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,360
an honest wine, which is a wine that really does reflect

400
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,160
this. The purpose and the soul of the land and the people

401
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,870
that make it. Right. Like the people that make it. The stories

402
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:15,910
you're handing down now from the Greeks all the way through

403
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:20,550
current times are part of this terroir. Yes.

404
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:24,710
And I. And I can't help but think that it shows up in the

405
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:27,990
wine and it's why you can have a glass of

406
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:30,950
Gomorrah nature and

407
00:25:31,270 --> 00:25:35,070
realize you're not in America anymore, you're not in

408
00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:38,790
France, you're a different place. And I think that's the

409
00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:42,430
savings aspect of

410
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:47,030
wine. See, it's like a capsule that transportates you

411
00:25:47,030 --> 00:25:50,830
to the origin. Yes. And it's a way

412
00:25:50,830 --> 00:25:53,950
to encapsulate piece of the world

413
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:58,350
and enjoy later years later, if you want.

414
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:02,510
So it's something magic that happens with wine. I wonder.

415
00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:06,380
It's very hard to define this, I haven't yet, from a chemist, a

416
00:26:06,380 --> 00:26:10,220
botanist, a nurseryman, winemakers, to really

417
00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:13,340
define what that is. We know, we can understand

418
00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:17,660
that the little tap roots at 30 meters down, you know,

419
00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:21,459
are grabbing this amazing character and transforming into a grape. And then

420
00:26:21,459 --> 00:26:24,740
we turn it into wine. We don't know why it does that. We know how

421
00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:28,260
it does it. We don't know why it's doing that. And there's something ethereal, there's

422
00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:31,980
something godlike about why it happens. And

423
00:26:32,370 --> 00:26:35,010
this is the part that bothers me about the industry. And maybe you see this

424
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:38,770
in your travels. I just read an article where they're putting

425
00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:42,514
wine in a pouch, like my grandkids live with me. They're 8,

426
00:26:42,626 --> 00:26:46,330
5 and 3. And they've got this pouchy, you know, the

427
00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:49,970
apple juice or apple cider, whatever's in there. And now they're putting wine in this

428
00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:53,730
pouch, like a sippy pouch. That can't do anything

429
00:26:53,730 --> 00:26:57,490
for you. In the. The experience we're talking about, it

430
00:26:57,490 --> 00:27:01,130
can't do anything like that. It's just 14% alcohol.

431
00:27:01,370 --> 00:27:04,970
Yes. And that's not what wine is about. No, no, no, no.

432
00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:08,890
Alcohol is the consequence. It's something that preserves the wine

433
00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:12,010
as well. No, that's true. It preserves the wine.

434
00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:16,050
Alcohol, the sugar, if it's a sweet wine, also preserves the

435
00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:19,810
wine. And it's something that has been able

436
00:27:19,810 --> 00:27:23,570
to help the different countries and cultures

437
00:27:23,570 --> 00:27:26,890
to communicate. Think of the time when the

438
00:27:26,890 --> 00:27:30,410
sherrys were transported to England and the port

439
00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:34,370
from Portugal. That's right. Was the

440
00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:38,170
first international trading. You know, how do you.

441
00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:41,890
How do you. You're at the market. You're a marketeer. Let's just

442
00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:44,490
say you're. You're. Let's say you're the flag waiver for

443
00:27:45,530 --> 00:27:47,530
corporate. I have to keep looking at corporate.

444
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,360
There's something my father used to say, you know, the French have learned how to

445
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,400
romance wine into the cup.

446
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:02,920
And when you think about wines like Veuve Clicquot and I. And

447
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,679
I would love to take one of your wines to my

448
00:28:06,679 --> 00:28:09,360
friend's house and they only buy V and

449
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,840
put it next to it and have them go, oh,

450
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,400
I get it now. This is different. But the French, you know,

451
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,170
the point I make is they make. I think VUV makes 25 million bottles a

452
00:28:22,170 --> 00:28:25,770
year. Some ridiculous number. Right. You can compare something in that scale as

453
00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:29,370
industrial product with something like we do that is

454
00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:33,530
very small production and is biodynamic. It's not

455
00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:37,210
just about fermenting and bottling. Yes, right. As fast as you

456
00:28:37,210 --> 00:28:40,410
can. It starts way like years before,

457
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:44,330
to the point that when we decided to become biodynamic,

458
00:28:44,570 --> 00:28:48,020
we went all the way and started our own farm

459
00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:51,820
so we can have our own cows. We have to grow grass to feed the

460
00:28:51,820 --> 00:28:54,340
cows, to give it the compost, to put it in the vineyards.

461
00:28:55,540 --> 00:28:59,180
That is another layer of time as well. That is a

462
00:28:59,180 --> 00:29:02,980
huge amount of time and expense. There's Rudolf Steiner's

463
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:06,340
book right over there. Of course, I've never read the whole thing.

464
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:10,500
I read the introduction. No, it's very deep.

465
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:14,340
It's very mystic. And I think every person has to

466
00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:18,000
go as far as they want and as far as they can

467
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,240
understanding and make it. Make it yours. For us, it's something very

468
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920
important. So we started a group of biodynamic grape

469
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,040
growers. Now it's over 10 years.

470
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Which certification is that? The European certification? Demeter.

471
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Demeter. Demeter. So let's explain it to

472
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,840
the. I think it's natural to

473
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,490
have sparkling wine as biodynamic. Not only

474
00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:48,130
because. Because of what it really represents, the

475
00:29:48,130 --> 00:29:51,170
tension in the soil and the what's going on in the world. And I think

476
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:54,770
it's a. Wine is a classic. And by the

477
00:29:54,770 --> 00:29:58,530
way, for the listeners, not all biodynamic food tastes that great. Sometimes it's

478
00:29:58,530 --> 00:30:01,250
pretty bitter and whatever the problems are. So it has to be managed like a

479
00:30:01,250 --> 00:30:04,930
real farm, right? Yeah, but we've destroyed the farms in the

480
00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:08,610
wheat farms in America have been destroyed with pesticides. It takes years for them to

481
00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:12,380
recover. And here you start from scratch making biodynamic

482
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:15,180
wines, which can only

483
00:30:16,620 --> 00:30:20,060
theoretically represent terroir

484
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:23,500
in its greatest form. If you do it right. Yeah,

485
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:27,660
look, we don't do biodynamics to have better wines. We already

486
00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:31,220
liked our wines. We

487
00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:35,060
didn't change the style of the wines by being biodynamic. We

488
00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:38,800
do it because it's our responsibility to take care of

489
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,600
the soil. Because after six generations, the only

490
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,400
thing they really own, their responsibility, their legacy, is

491
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,040
the soil is the earth they work at. And if they want to

492
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,879
have six more generations of Cremona, they realize they need

493
00:30:53,879 --> 00:30:56,920
to protect the soil. And we

494
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,120
study different possibilities. You can do biodynamics, you can do

495
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,880
organic, you do a lot of different. I don't know how

496
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,690
to say in English, but different philosophies, but. But the one that

497
00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:12,610
connected with us the most is biodynamics. So we started

498
00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:16,370
doing BioDynamics in 2010. First you go organic,

499
00:31:16,370 --> 00:31:20,090
then you go biodynamic. We bring all the

500
00:31:20,090 --> 00:31:23,410
team and our grape growers neighbors

501
00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:27,450
together to Switzerland, to Dornak, to the

502
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:31,290
headquarters of Biodynamic, to get the education, to get

503
00:31:31,290 --> 00:31:35,000
this knowledge and then understand what part

504
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,120
or how we can apply it in our soil, to make it

505
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,840
more alive, to give life to the soil and to

506
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,440
grant a future for this soil. Not only

507
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,279
for the quality or the nutrients of the soil,

508
00:31:50,279 --> 00:31:54,000
it's for the structure. And also we

509
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,680
realize it's struggling with all this climate change. We are

510
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400
very worried about it. Because that's an interesting thought.

511
00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:05,410
You would think that proper biodynamic would.

512
00:32:06,370 --> 00:32:10,010
Would manage itself with climate change,

513
00:32:10,010 --> 00:32:13,210
because that's kind of what it's based on. It's this whole balance of what's going

514
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:16,850
on in the air and the ground. But when, when biodynamics

515
00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:20,650
started in the wine trade, let's just say Maybe it was 15 years ago

516
00:32:20,650 --> 00:32:24,450
that they started to show up. They weren't good. They

517
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:27,810
didn't last long. I've got. I've got cases of

518
00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:31,000
failed Sicilian Sangiovese

519
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,320
from that or Sardinia, because they weren't

520
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,960
made properly and that. And. And it's

521
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,080
almost an excuse. You can almost taste a really bad or

522
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,839
biodynamic wine, and then that would be the excuse as to why it tastes

523
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:49,000
so bad. Well, it's biodynamics, so it's healthy for you. You have to muscle it

524
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,640
down, drink it. But that's not the case today because of what you've

525
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,400
learned and what people have learned. In fact, now it's the opposite. You, you can

526
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,190
get incredible. We don't make natural wine. We make

527
00:33:00,190 --> 00:33:03,990
biodynamic farming. And we also are biodynamic

528
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:07,350
in the winery in the sense that we don't use as many

529
00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:11,150
sulfates, but we still use. And there are enologic,

530
00:33:11,150 --> 00:33:14,670
like winemaking products that we cannot use. Right, of course.

531
00:33:14,990 --> 00:33:18,590
But for me, there's a difference in the profile

532
00:33:18,750 --> 00:33:22,550
when tasting of a natural wine than biodynamic wine. But what is natural

533
00:33:22,550 --> 00:33:26,340
wine? Oh, and we need another podcast to speak

534
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:30,140
about this. I've never bought that. You know, in America,

535
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:34,020
I look all this up early on in this. You can

536
00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:37,860
put natural on a bag of bagels and it has

537
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:41,420
no meaning. Yeah. There's no definition in the federal

538
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:44,780
government's fda, the federal Department of

539
00:33:44,780 --> 00:33:48,060
Agriculture, that. That tells you

540
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:52,630
that means something. It doesn't exist. At least with Demeter

541
00:33:52,790 --> 00:33:56,470
Biodynamics, there's a structure organic, there's a structure natural,

542
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:59,350
no structure. Right. And so

543
00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:03,990
it's amazing because when I taste these wines, you would expect, and I think

544
00:34:05,670 --> 00:34:09,350
the earlier tests with this would suggest,

545
00:34:09,830 --> 00:34:13,270
and did suggest that these wines are going to represent

546
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,600
in a higher level of fashion, a higher level of complexity, a

547
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,000
higher level of structure when they're properly

548
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,760
made because they're bio binance siva. We were already

549
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,560
making long aging and high quality

550
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,080
in the 90s and early 2000s.

551
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,960
So I don't think the biodynamics make

552
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,800
our wines better or taste better. It's. We don't

553
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,440
do it for that. We do it for the future of our

554
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,520
soil, because like I said, that's the only

555
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,600
thing we're responsible for for the future. So

556
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,400
we wanted more people to follow this philosophy like us,

557
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,120
because it became part of our DNA. So now

558
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,560
we have a group of 12 grape growers

559
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,600
that we associate together. It's called alliance for

560
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,220
the Earth, Allianzas Parlaterra and we support each

561
00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:13,900
other. And altogether it's 400 hectares

562
00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:17,740
that we work biodynamic and then we learn from each

563
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:21,500
other. Everyone contributes with something. Maybe one can bring.

564
00:35:21,740 --> 00:35:24,700
We have cows, we can bring compost, but maybe other

565
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:29,140
member of the association can bring medicinal plants. That goes for

566
00:35:29,140 --> 00:35:32,780
the preparations. And then we do it together and we have doubts and

567
00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:36,940
we check on each other. What is working better and why you're doing this? Why

568
00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:40,380
are you not doing that? So it's like,

569
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,600
I don't want to say co op, but it's like a group commune of

570
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,360
grape growers. You just trigger a great thought,

571
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,200
because I don't think there's any other product

572
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,760
in the world that

573
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,720
as wine that represents the concept of you

574
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:04,440
are what you eat, eats, right? It used to be you are what you eat,

575
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,880
but that's not true. It's are what you eat, eats. And grapes,

576
00:36:08,350 --> 00:36:11,790
what the grapes are eating exactly is. Is such an important part of

577
00:36:11,950 --> 00:36:15,470
what comes out of there. And I, And I understand the part of you're not

578
00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:18,270
trying to make them better, you just. You're trying to be better for the earth.

579
00:36:18,430 --> 00:36:22,190
Yes, but wine

580
00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:25,070
has always been consumer driven,

581
00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:29,750
right? Madame Clicquot had two. Two cuvees,

582
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:33,510
one for this English, one for the Russians. It's just always,

583
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:36,800
you know, we have to sell some stuff, right? We had to sell stuff. But

584
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:40,870
that doesn't say. It doesn't mean that its representation

585
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:44,630
of the culture is being sold to or being made from. Can't

586
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:48,630
be dynamic in itself. In other words, you've moved

587
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:52,190
to biodynamic farming that is now an expression of your

588
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:55,990
culture in penites, in this part of

589
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:59,230
the world. And we're lucky that we have a

590
00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:02,790
Mediterranean weather, so we can explore a lot more with

591
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:06,630
biodynamic other regions, because other regions,

592
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:09,810
like in Champagne or in Switzerland,

593
00:37:10,370 --> 00:37:14,130
there's a lot more rain. So they cannot use

594
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:17,810
so much biodynamics because it's too risky. But for our

595
00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:21,570
weather conditions, we can explore a lot more. And we've seen

596
00:37:21,570 --> 00:37:25,250
the effects that the land, the vineyards talk

597
00:37:25,250 --> 00:37:28,850
to you in a way. You can see they look different, they're

598
00:37:28,850 --> 00:37:32,490
life there, they bring more life, more we see

599
00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:36,080
more all kind of animals. But

600
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:39,680
we also contribute a part of our farm or cows.

601
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,920
We also have chickens that we have a

602
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,840
chicken house mobile, so we can move the chickens

603
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,640
so they can spend time. We Want animal life to be together

604
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,160
with the plant life. We make the sheep to walk through the

605
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,400
vineyards. We plow by horse instead of tractors.

606
00:38:00,250 --> 00:38:02,410
How far are you from the Iberian coast?

607
00:38:03,930 --> 00:38:07,690
Iberian pigs are. Oh, that's

608
00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:11,530
in the central, isn't it? Central. More in the south of

609
00:38:11,530 --> 00:38:14,650
Spain, see, like thousands of kilometers away.

610
00:38:15,050 --> 00:38:15,930
Okay. So

611
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:22,330
they just started doing that in Napa. We. We go to Napa quite frequently. It's

612
00:38:22,330 --> 00:38:26,130
easy for us. And not that many trips ago. Maybe it was last year, two

613
00:38:26,130 --> 00:38:29,840
years ago, we started noticing sheep in the vineyard. And. And

614
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,640
I'm like. And. But they bring them in, you know, like this. Bring a truck

615
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,240
in, unload them, let them walk around for a bit, and then they put them

616
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,880
back in the truck and take them away. Oh, no, no, that's very risky. Yeah,

617
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,640
because the sheep love to eat the leaves of the vineyards. Yeah. Oh, do they?

618
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,320
So we did. We had to do a little training there, I think. Yeah, Well,

619
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,440
I don't know if they do it when the. When the, you know, like now

620
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,560
where it's starting to get green, but they're out there doing it.

621
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,160
But. But that's an important part of. Of the body

622
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,200
movement. And I had Piero Inchenza here, who's the descendant of, I think,

623
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,570
Ornalaya, you know, super Tuscan, and he bought a

624
00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:05,210
biodynamic farm in Patagonia.

625
00:39:06,090 --> 00:39:09,490
And the. Interesting conversation. But the most

626
00:39:09,490 --> 00:39:12,610
interesting thing I remember him saying is the

627
00:39:12,610 --> 00:39:16,330
armadillos are back. Oh, yes. Right.

628
00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:18,890
So there are a lot of general

629
00:39:19,930 --> 00:39:23,770
activity with animals and bugs and.

630
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:26,570
And you can tell, for example, we have

631
00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:31,020
21 beehives. Oh, wow, that's great. Yes, that's important.

632
00:39:31,820 --> 00:39:35,500
We consider the bees like air auditors. They

633
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,700
audit the quality of our air. Interesting.

634
00:39:40,060 --> 00:39:43,660
But they don't pollinate grapes, do they? No. But

635
00:39:43,980 --> 00:39:47,780
do the pollinization of all the plants around it. Yes, because we

636
00:39:47,780 --> 00:39:51,260
don't want to be mono crop. We love to have other plants. For example, we've

637
00:39:51,260 --> 00:39:54,740
been planting olive trees in the middle of the

638
00:39:54,740 --> 00:39:58,180
vineyards also because. Helps us to

639
00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:01,660
retain the soil because now

640
00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:06,420
we get really strong rains that oxygenates a lot the

641
00:40:06,420 --> 00:40:10,140
soil. But if you put trees around it or other plants,

642
00:40:10,540 --> 00:40:13,820
keeps the soil together so you don't lose all this.

643
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:17,260
All this dirt. Are you trying to control

644
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:21,630
the. Like, one of the ones. I read a book, and they're talking

645
00:40:21,630 --> 00:40:25,390
about the farms in New York where they.

646
00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:28,550
In other parts of the country here, where they grow wheat

647
00:40:29,830 --> 00:40:33,110
and that the trained

648
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:36,990
farmer can walk that wheat farm and look

649
00:40:36,990 --> 00:40:40,710
at the weeds and tell you what that piece

650
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:43,990
of soil or that area is void in nutrients,

651
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:47,710
rich in certain nutrients based on the weeds that are growing.

652
00:40:48,590 --> 00:40:52,230
See? Totally. Because there are some weeds that grow better

653
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:56,070
with certain soil than other seeds. We have weeds that are

654
00:40:56,070 --> 00:40:59,630
natural weeds. And then we also introduce some

655
00:40:59,710 --> 00:41:02,510
weeds that have strong roots to

656
00:41:03,310 --> 00:41:06,750
help the vineyards to grow the roots deeper down.

657
00:41:07,150 --> 00:41:08,670
When we plant a vineyard,

658
00:41:11,070 --> 00:41:14,860
we do look a lot at that. We plant all different kind of

659
00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:18,420
crops and weeds to break the soil instead of breaking with

660
00:41:18,420 --> 00:41:21,700
machines with the roots of these plants. We also,

661
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:26,180
instead of planting the vines in straight lines.

662
00:41:27,459 --> 00:41:30,660
No, we don't do that. We follow the altitude of

663
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:35,380
the soil. It's called key line. Really. So this way,

664
00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:39,180
when we get weak rains the soil, the erosion

665
00:41:39,650 --> 00:41:43,490
doesn't take all away. And as we're gonna plow

666
00:41:43,490 --> 00:41:47,330
by horse anyway, the horses look always for the easiest way.

667
00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:51,250
And the easiest way is following the altitude of the soil. So

668
00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:54,930
allows us to have a more respectful way

669
00:41:55,249 --> 00:41:58,970
keep retain the soil. And of course, you look at the

670
00:41:58,970 --> 00:42:02,730
vineyard and you think, who planted this? Yeah. Had been

671
00:42:02,730 --> 00:42:06,450
drinking something before because. Joke. I can't say it on the. To people,

672
00:42:06,450 --> 00:42:08,530
but that's interesting. So

673
00:42:11,170 --> 00:42:14,810
isn't that more expensive? And how do you land

674
00:42:14,810 --> 00:42:18,210
wines for the prices you're landing them with that kind of management?

675
00:42:19,250 --> 00:42:22,370
Horses. Now I know they understand that

676
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:26,290
pesticides or herbicides and insecticides are expensive.

677
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:30,650
But then the hand monitoring of a

678
00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:34,400
biodynamic farm is also very expensive. Yes,

679
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,080
but it's more expensive when you dye when your vineyard dies because

680
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,840
it's full of chemicals and the quality of your grapes

681
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,760
is very poor. That's more especially because you cannot make quality

682
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,280
wine. The chip becomes

683
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,720
expensive. No, but it's so inspiring to hear that

684
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,480
and hear a commitment to the philosophy.

685
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,080
It's a functional philosophy. It's just, it's not a theory. It works.

686
00:43:00,970 --> 00:43:04,770
But that there's people that are committed to that and not committed

687
00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,410
to the biggest margin they can come up with a

688
00:43:08,410 --> 00:43:12,090
wine in the cheapest format. And I've had many women sit there

689
00:43:12,090 --> 00:43:15,810
and men as well, tell me about their cans and

690
00:43:15,810 --> 00:43:19,370
tell me about the, the, the lining

691
00:43:19,450 --> 00:43:23,050
of the can or the pouch that has to be resistant to,

692
00:43:23,290 --> 00:43:26,810
you know, wine acid. And it just sounds disgusting to me

693
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,520
that that's the case. And years ago, years and years ago,

694
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,200
it's probably around here somewhere. Somebody gave me a bottle of plastic.

695
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,640
Bottle of South African wine. Plastic. And

696
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,920
it sat there so long that the, the lining

697
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,720
that's protecting the wine from the plastic started to deteriorate.

698
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,000
It was disgusting. And probably some of it goes to the winery,

699
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,790
end up drinking. You know that happens, right? You

700
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:58,510
know that happens. And here you folks are doing exact opposite,

701
00:43:59,390 --> 00:44:02,990
making sure that the wine is as pure as possible. That goes into the bottle,

702
00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:06,830
which goes into our bodies, which I think is an important part of that. And

703
00:44:06,830 --> 00:44:10,430
this is not just a decision from the owner, the family,

704
00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:13,870
Ramona. It's something that

705
00:44:13,870 --> 00:44:17,630
we've been all learning and reading.

706
00:44:18,030 --> 00:44:21,710
We've been bringing teachers, speakers to help

707
00:44:21,710 --> 00:44:25,470
us to understand all this philosophy. Because it doesn't work if only

708
00:44:25,470 --> 00:44:29,130
the BO tells you to do it. Yeah. It has to change

709
00:44:29,370 --> 00:44:32,970
you and has to become something you really believe. Do you love

710
00:44:32,970 --> 00:44:36,130
it? I love it a lot. And I've seen the change because I've been there

711
00:44:36,130 --> 00:44:39,850
for 20 years. Wow, that's a long time. So I've seen the evolution of

712
00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:43,290
what it was, what it is now. And now it's like

713
00:44:43,450 --> 00:44:47,290
Albanias are like gardens full of life. They have

714
00:44:47,290 --> 00:44:50,570
visitors. Tasting room. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

715
00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:55,530
Not a lot because we don't have a huge

716
00:44:55,610 --> 00:44:59,110
structure, but that's the plan, slowly, to bring more people to

717
00:44:59,190 --> 00:45:02,950
explain what we're doing. See, well, that's.

718
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:06,670
That was part of the earlier part of my conversation, which I believe is the

719
00:45:06,670 --> 00:45:09,710
beginning. Now, this patch here, and I've talked about this before on the show, this

720
00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:13,230
is called Les Ami Divan. It was a group in California in America, there were

721
00:45:13,230 --> 00:45:17,070
150 chapters. And he's talking about 1975-85, something like

722
00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:20,470
that. My dad's pre. This is his presidential president

723
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:24,990
thing. But the point was, with

724
00:45:24,990 --> 00:45:28,310
150 chapters in America, that's quite a bit. If you own a liquor store or

725
00:45:28,310 --> 00:45:31,790
wine shop, you could get a chapter and you held events and people

726
00:45:31,870 --> 00:45:35,630
came and they would be speakers. And, you know, maybe. Maybe

727
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:38,990
today's generation, that experience is probably

728
00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:42,750
passe or old. But I still believe that the

729
00:45:42,910 --> 00:45:46,710
savior for the wine trade, or at least the stability in the wine trade, is

730
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:50,310
going to be these experiences that people

731
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:54,090
realize, and I tell a lot of wineries that I

732
00:45:54,090 --> 00:45:55,890
visit that

733
00:45:57,650 --> 00:46:01,330
once they have the experience, and every time they open a bottle of

734
00:46:01,330 --> 00:46:04,770
Grimora, they're going to remember that experience. It's going to take them

735
00:46:04,850 --> 00:46:08,650
back. The wine takes them back to where they made it and when

736
00:46:08,650 --> 00:46:12,130
they made it. But that tasting at home takes them back to the day that

737
00:46:12,130 --> 00:46:15,570
they had. Yeah, it's like an anchor that brings you back through there.

738
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:19,660
So important, see, and not just. And I. I think that's part

739
00:46:19,660 --> 00:46:23,220
of. Part of the issue, too. And I read a lot about this stuff is

740
00:46:23,220 --> 00:46:26,940
the tableside psalm manner. Like for

741
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:29,660
instance. And we'll end on this because we're already out of time.

742
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:34,340
We are in Palermo and there

743
00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,980
was a Slavic or Serbian

744
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:42,080
psalm, and we ordered a Super Tuscan.

745
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:47,510
You know, Guido bought it from him

746
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:52,990
and it was the most extraordinarily

747
00:46:52,990 --> 00:46:56,470
inspiring service of wine

748
00:46:56,630 --> 00:47:00,310
that I've ever been through. And. And not because it's.

749
00:47:00,470 --> 00:47:03,910
He was being a snobby guy because he truly

750
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:07,910
believed in the product he was serving you and wanted you

751
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,040
to experience it in all its glory. And

752
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,440
I got up after dinner and I went to him and I gave him a

753
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,120
big tip. I said, I got to tell you something. I've been watching this for

754
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,960
35 years. I've never seen anybody so enthusiastic about

755
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,720
making sure that can be done at the winery level. It can

756
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,560
be done at this level. Right now, what you're talking, the

757
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,200
way you're inspired to tell the story. When people

758
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,000
watch this story, they're going to be inspired too. I'm really. I'm inspired

759
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,400
now. I feel like a glass of wine.

760
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,720
Well, I could. I wish I had more time to explain it. More and more

761
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:47,440
things difficult, not just with words, to explain everything

762
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,280
we do. So. I would love you. You could come and see us. Well, my.

763
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,240
At Easter, we went down in the desert and I met with my

764
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,680
cut. My cousins, and she's a huge

765
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,670
Francophile. Is a French. What's a Spanish file? What they call it

766
00:48:02,060 --> 00:48:05,860
Spanophile. What's a. What's a person that studies Spanish culture

767
00:48:05,860 --> 00:48:08,940
in Spanish, Like a philology.

768
00:48:09,180 --> 00:48:12,940
Spanish philology, okay. That kind of thing. So she's. She's. That

769
00:48:13,020 --> 00:48:16,380
she's studied there and she asked me, Sunday,

770
00:48:16,940 --> 00:48:20,780
when are we going to the Spain wine country? Come on. Yes, yes. I'm like,

771
00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:24,860
it's so beautiful and it's so different because

772
00:48:24,940 --> 00:48:28,780
the landscape has so many different

773
00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:32,420
faces with a small distance. For example, we are in

774
00:48:32,420 --> 00:48:36,050
Penades. There's a ballet near the Mediterranean. But you

775
00:48:36,050 --> 00:48:39,610
drive an hour only and you're in Priorat, super

776
00:48:39,610 --> 00:48:41,610
rural, black slate

777
00:48:43,210 --> 00:48:46,850
north. That's a little north, right? It's a

778
00:48:46,850 --> 00:48:50,490
little more south than Barcelona, Benedes,

779
00:48:50,490 --> 00:48:54,250
Priorat. And that's like an hour and something drive. And it's

780
00:48:54,410 --> 00:48:58,010
another world of how the plants struggle to grow

781
00:48:58,570 --> 00:49:02,320
through the rocks. Yes. Different grapes entirely. Yeah,

782
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,720
totally. Yes. So interesting. And within

783
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,760
two hours, max, no less. And then you

784
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,520
go to the islands, in Canary Islands, and you see how

785
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,240
the plants struggle against the wind. So every plant has to be planted

786
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:21,040
in a hole in the ground. So it doesn't get burned by the air from

787
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,520
the desert. That's so interesting. So the geography

788
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,440
is very different in

789
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,200
short distance or a long distance in the same country. So

790
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,890
it has to be. I wish you could come and more people

791
00:49:35,890 --> 00:49:39,570
from this country could come and discover the new Spain. About

792
00:49:39,570 --> 00:49:43,090
wine. A lot of things are happening. Very fascinating.

793
00:49:43,650 --> 00:49:46,810
I only ask my cousins that we start in France and end in France. I

794
00:49:46,810 --> 00:49:50,370
love France. So we'll probably go to the French Riviera, come down the coast,

795
00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:54,050
cross the Pyrenees and start that trip. Yes, Down.

796
00:49:54,290 --> 00:49:57,330
Head down that way. That's the way to go. And we're just going to do

797
00:49:57,330 --> 00:50:00,810
that and we'll come see you and I can see your enthusiasm and your smile.

798
00:50:00,810 --> 00:50:04,090
It's great. Great. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much. Thank you for having

799
00:50:04,090 --> 00:50:07,650
me. It was a really nice pleasure talking to you and thanks for the wines,

800
00:50:07,650 --> 00:50:09,530
of course. Thank you. Cheers.