Navigating Wine Lists and Confidence: A Conversation with Natalie McLean

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I say I started drinking when I met my husband and haven't found a reason

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to stop. He's now my ex husband, by the way. Oh,

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okay. Well, it's only some credit. Wine helped.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine

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Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California, about 65 degrees here in Los Angeles

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and I hope you are experiencing the same across the country. We have a wonderful

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guest Today and Natalie McLean. We'll get to the introductions in a second.

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Wine Talks is available on Spotify, iHeartRadio, Pandora, you

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name it, we are there and always sponsored by the original Wine of the Month

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club, now sporting the Bordeaux and Napa series.

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But let's get to the show because this is a lot of fun.

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I was fortunate enough to be on her show recently and we wanted to get

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her on Wine Talks because this is Natalie McLean

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all the way from Canada. What part of Canada are we in, Natalie? I'm in

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Ottawa, the capital, the snowy capital. The snow. Is it cold up there

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today? It's getting warm. Our kind of warm though I should redefine what warm

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is after hearing your weather report. We're in

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Celsius, so the conversion always escapes me. But

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it's about plus 8 degrees Celsius right now, so we're above

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freezing. 16th is 16. That's like 30. That's like

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46. Exactly. So we're wearing shorts and T shirts as a

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result because we are Canadian, we are winter

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hardy. See, I set out when I was a kid as a teenager. I was

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going to come up with my own conversion because it's a linear conversion

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from Celsius to centigrade, from centigrade to Fahrenheit. You have to have

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sort of a moving scale. Yes, but I double the centigrade and I add

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28. That'll get you within a couple of degrees

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either way. And if you as it gets warmer then that scale changes

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a little bit. But I want to read your accolades because this is very important.

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Primarily, you consider yourself the chief of wine happiness.

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We're going to get to that in a second. We're going to define that. But

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you're author of the book Red, White and Drunk all over in our

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kind of book, A Wine Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass. And here's a picture

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of it and the book

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A Tipsy Quest for the World's Best Bargain Wines.

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And she happens to have a copy with her. Now.

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You also have one James Beard Fisher Distinguished Writing Award

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Calling the shots. The James Boyd award for the Internet column and feature

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writing. Easy for me to say. Dining in the wild, wild West.

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Lady sings the booze. You know, these are clever names. Lady

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sings the booze. I can't resist a good punt.

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White and drunk all over. And waiter,

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there's a flaw in my wine. So all interesting subjects. It reminds me of

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the joke, hey, waiter, what's that fly doing in my soup? And

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he says the backstroke. So

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tell us about this journey because it also suggests in

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some of the Internet articles about you and what you've done that your husband got

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you into this. Is that true? Are we. Is the

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husband. Absolutely. Well, I say I started drinking when I met

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my husband and haven't found a reason to stop. He's now my ex

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husband, by the way. Oh, okay. Well, it's gotta give some credit.

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Wine helped. I actually specialize and divorce wine tastings with which,

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you know, cabernet pairs best with burning wine. Love letter or sorry, love

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letters. But anyway, that's another topic. And another tasting. No, that's.

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We're gonna have to talk about that for sure. Okay, go ahead.

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Pair wines with, you know. You know, if you found yourself a good divorce lawyer

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and it's a great prenup. Or not. Okay, that's after the fact.

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Anyway, I'm getting carried away. I. But

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I did get into wine with him. We were

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two MBAs, A type personalities. And we

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moved to Toronto together. And as we met in

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business school, so we started first

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taking Spanish at night and sort of conjugating

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Spanish verbs and all that after a long day at work. He was at

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Citibank, I was at Procter and Gamble. That just was. We

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couldn't hack it. Then we thought, oh, let's take up golf. And

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that was a really bad idea because, you know, typical

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personalities. Yeah. With long iron clubs. Not a good

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pairing. Then I saw a wine or a

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wine course at our local college and I thought, we can drink at night.

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That will calm us down and we'll have fun. And so it started with

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that. We took it together. I continued for the full sommelier

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diploma program, but he just took the one course and enjoyed it.

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Well, you said a mouthful there. I have to

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ask a couple of questions because Ottawa is what part?

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My North American geography is not very good as far as

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Canada is concerned. What part of the country is it? That's okay. We're in Ontario.

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We're about an hour flight from Toronto. We're actually the

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country's capital, but we're so snowy here. Voltaire

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described Canada once as a few acres of snow. So no one

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knows where we are. We just, we're the Great White north, so we live. At

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least you've got accolades from Voltaire, so that's great. But, but

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Spanish, I mean, seriously, why would you take up Spanish? You know,

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because. Why not French at least? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, we learned French in

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school, so, you know, we thought being such

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obsessive compulsives, let's get another language just for fun.

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And learning languages is beautiful, but not after an eight, you know,

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10 hour workday at intense companies. It was like,

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oh my gosh, please. It's very hard. My listeners have

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heard this before, but I started about five years ago studying French and I was

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hell bent to, to learn it. And my, my dad speaks French because in,

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in Cairo, where he grew up in the 30s,

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French was the second language of, of the Arabic country until the English,

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the Protectorate came in and then English became obviously the second language. But if you

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watch film from the 30s from Cairo,

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most of the signs, business signs, are in Arabic and in French,

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so it's hard to do. You have to be really disciplined to do it. And

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you have. I have to get up early in the morning to speak with

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the. There's actually services now. There's one called

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italki.com in case you want to resurrect your Spanish. No,

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thanks. Pursuit. Good to know. Good to know. And then

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the golf thing's hilarious because it reminds me of the Raymond episode where they

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decide as a couple they're going to play golf together and sort of take on

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the husband's hobby. It doesn't go well in the

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episode. No. I have this long club and I'm in the sand

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pit going, I don't need any more tips, darling.

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And that would happen for sure. So. But it did say, like,

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he suggested that you take wine classes. Was there any wine

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enthusiasm prior to that besides just, you know, catching a buzz late at

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night? Yeah, exactly. Well, I cottoned onto wine

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because I was working for. I also, I went from Procter and Gamble

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to a high tech company that's now the headquarters of Google in Mountain View.

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So I started arranging my meetings, quarterly meetings

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on a Friday or a Thursday so I could drive up to Napa because the

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one thing when you're working in an intense job, the one thing

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you can do is take clients out to dinner and start to

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gain an appreciation for wine, that sort of thing. So there was no

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time for golf, thank goodness. But I started to learn about wine and

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so that was always there in the background. And so we

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both thought, yeah, that sounds good, let's find out what we're drinking

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so we know what to buy and how to pair it with food and that

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sort of thing. Was it intimidating back then? Because you

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know, Procter and Gamble for one, being corporate America, I mean the huge company and

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I want to get into that marketing, the guerrilla marketing that they

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do a little bit if we can. But was it intimidating for you

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to start, you know, you're trying to entertain clients, you're going to

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dinner, you look at the wine list. That's very confusing. Each wine list is

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different. How did that go for you? Well, you know, the first experience

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I actually remember was pre Procter and Gamble when I was

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at the end of or near the end of the mba. We were all getting

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interested interviews and I went for one with McKinsey Company, which

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is a consulting company. And the

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final rounds you went to dinner with a partner and

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he was shaking down his Rolex watch and his little Burberry

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cupcakes and all the rest of it. He goes, why don't you choose the wine?

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And so I had nothing, no experience, except maybe, you know,

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cold baby duck back of the high school portable.

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That was it. Like that was the experience. We used to sell that, by the

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way, just so you know, no dissing, but that was just.

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That was my experience. Yeah, I thought, well, and I'm

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scanning the wine list and just sweating bullets because I feel like this

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is a test. And it was as part of the interview.

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And so I thought, oh, I'll choose something safe and fancy.

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Mondavi Cabernet from California. So I went with that.

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And then I sort of look up and he goes, well, that's going to be

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interesting with my Dover soul. Anyway, learned

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later that's really incredibly bad match get the

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job. Don't think it was because of the wine choice, but I

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never felt so intimidated. And so like I

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need to know what this wine stuff is all about because I never want

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to feel that way again. Because it, it's something that gives us

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pleasure, but it's also wine is something that can make us feel very uptight

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and very small town girl. In my case it's,

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you know, that's a the interesting story because

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here you are, the pressure of an interview, so to speak, and sort of a

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social. And I just had a friend of my son just was interviewed for a

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job and the last interview was they took him to a bar and this

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is a high end real estate Firm that does a lot of big business across

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America. And they wanted to know how he socialized, you know, in that environment.

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And, you know, he was sort of in that environment. You normally would say, well,

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I'm not going to order a drink, because that might be a bad thing. But

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they want him to order a drink and understand how he reacts to that in

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that situation. I thought it was interesting, but

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it seems to me, and this is for the listeners and for people that are

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trying to study wine, I want to learn about wine that that isn't intimidating.

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It's even intimidating for us if I'm on a list that I don't know.

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In other words, it's always handed to me. Right? You probably get the list everywhere

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you go, whether you're with guests or friends or family, they go, oh, give the

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list to Natalie. She understands wine. And then you look at it and you go,

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gee, I don't think I've had that Burgundy. I don't think I've had that Bordeaux.

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And then we go back to the stuff that we've may

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recognize or we've tasted before. And I highlight by. I was

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responsible for the wine at an Easter gathering years ago with my in

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laws down Palm Springs, and I forgot to bring it. Okay? So that's the

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first mistake. So then I went to the market, and I just, like

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every other consumer, I went to the market, started looking at the wines, and I'm

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going, you know, I never tasted that. So I really don't know if

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it's proper or balanced or whatever, you know,

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acronyms you're trying to look for, adjectives you're looking for, but. And I made a

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bad decision. One of them was really good, good value. The other one wasn't so

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great, and I bought it on the brand. So that

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it takes confidence to do this, doesn't it? Does. It does. And

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you're right, Paul, like restaurant wine lists,

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if they're any good, are trying to get wines

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that you haven't tried before or that aren't

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often stocked in liquor stores or that sort of thing, because they want to give

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you a new taste experience. So that puts us, even as

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experienced tasters, often in the same seat, because

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I don't know. And, you know, am I going to take a chance on that?

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Whatever, $75, $50 burgundy or whatever. It would be a lot more

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expensive. Yeah, well, yeah, I wish. Exactly.

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And so, you know, I always defer to the sommelier

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if I'm in a place that cares about wine. Like, what do you

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think of this? Wine or, you know, we're having the veal and the chicken.

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What do you, do you think this wine will work? You know, and the thing

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that people come back at me for is, well, how can I signal how

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much I want to pay? Especially I don't want to declare out loud how

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much you're willing to pay for love on a date or business. And

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I just tip the wine list toward me and just point at the prices

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only. Clever. Yeah. And I'll say I want something in this range.

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And everyone else thinks I'm thinking, you know, talking style or region,

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but signaling this is how much I want to pay.

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That's the other intimidating thing though is that if you're with guests that you're

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not sure what their budgeting is like or whether they're used to spending $100 on

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a bottle of wine, you know, you're sort of intimidated. So when

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we are in Paul Beaucu in Lyon,

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you know, I was able to say the, you know,

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type thing to the Somme because my guests didn't know what that meant.

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And I was telling him I wanted the Bordeaux in the $400 range. And

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you know, that was easy. But you're right, it's. You're worried like

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somebody in front of you that your guests are going to go $100, you know,

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in the back of their mind and they're going, oh, I guess I'm, I guess

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I'm buying, right? Yes. But that's interest though. The

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Psalms role in a restaurant, a real restaurant

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that has a real wine list, not one that's produced by the local

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wholesaler, is pretty important to help guide

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clients through and interpret what you're

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asking them for. You pointed to the dollar amount, but stylistically

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they have to interpret what we tell them. Well, we like

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the way I do that. Maybe it's the same is I ask people what they

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usually drink. I drink, you know, Jordan, I usually drink silver

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oak or whatever. And then we can at least get a style through that. But

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how do you, how do you recommend to the, to, to,

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to people at a restaurant that are trying to decipher a menu,

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a wine list and explain to the Psalm what they're doing.

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Exactly. That's a great tip. Really great tip. Like just what's. What are

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we drinking? You know, what are we drinking doing? So what is the chief

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of wine? Happiness? I mean, that's a self proclaimed thing or is that a

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degree that you earn? Degree. I would love to go to that school.

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Oh my goodness. I just have to figure out my minor and my major, but

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chief of wine Happiness. I mean, you know, I just,

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I recognize that wine is pleasure for most of us, we

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are just buying a glass of pleasure. We are not

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signing up for the encyclopedia of wine, though. That's

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great if you want to dive head first into wine

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with all of the different facets and knowledge. But you know, at, at

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bottom, I think most of us just want to relax with

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friends, have a good glass. It's not going to disappoint them. And

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that's my mission. So I, I put that rather than

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any initials or degrees or diplomas or

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anything beside my name. Well, I think it's a, that's an important

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distinction. I want to the listeners understand. I mean, I, I have full respect

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for MWS and MSS and anybody that's pursuing that.

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And in California, just to sell wine now as a,

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as an entry level job, if you just want to get in the streets and

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go to liquor stores and restaurants and sell them wine, you need something, you need

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a whit said degree or level one SOM

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certification. Something that says you're attempting

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to learn a little bit. And so those certifications

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are important, particularly in jobs where it's important to have knowledge,

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but they certainly are degrees to

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the extent that we can't learn the same thing by

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studying ourselves. Okay, I want to make that really clear. I think

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maybe the confidence issue comes into play when you have that degree. In other

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words, I have really good friends that really understand wine, but

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they still describe it with a question mark at the end. I taste

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blackberries. You know, do I taste right? And it's like, no,

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I taste blackberries. That's what I taste. Exclamation mark. Say

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wet violets in spring and everybody will agree with you. Right? That's

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right. That's exactly what I gotta start using that. Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, you know, just as long as you say it with power. But

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that's exactly why, you know, I teach online wine food pairing

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classes. It's. People don't necessarily want to become masters of

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wine, most of us, but we want to become the expert on our own palate.

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And that is that confidence to go into a liquor

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store and not default to the same bottle every time or

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to join a wine club, of course, and to experiment and to have the

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confidence. I know what I, I know when I want to branch out

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and try something new. I know what pairs with a variety of dishes.

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That's why, you know, people come to me, at least for the online

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pairing courses that I offer, because, you know, it's a very small

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percentage of the population that want to become true experts

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in the way that master of wine and master sommelier can. Can do

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for you. Well, it's a. It's a pursuit. It's a

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pursuit of education like anything else. If you want to learn a language, you pursue

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it through all the means you can. And there's plenty

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resources online to read about wine and books. I've got a

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huge library of books accumulated over the years.

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So you said something important, though. The ethereal

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value of a glass of wine. I want people, as you put it, to

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just enjoy the glass of wine they're having. And

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you. And I can't predict everybody's palate and what they're going to

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like, though. We find something really interesting. Like, the other day, I tasted a Canary

286
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Islands Lisbon Negro. I'm

287
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like, never heard of the grape. And I really enjoyed the wine.

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It may. Not that everybody enjoys it, but your. Your idea

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that we want to relax with a good glass of wine. And what does that

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mean, good glass of wine? Well,

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I think it's perfectly fine. And I do it all the time. And I know

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it's hard to imagine I dump out a lot of wine, I mean, because

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I have access to it, but I don't want to suffer through a glass of

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wine. Why would I want to do that? Yep, Life's too short. And

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we're trying to drink within moderation limits. So you can only consume so much

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alcohol, and that's drinking and tasting. So you gotta choose

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wisely, I think. You know, just like everything else in life. Yes.

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Well, you want to test the limits of, you know, you can only drink so

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much alcohol. Probably tested the limits too many times on that. But

300
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I was tasting the other day, and I'm not sure if we talked about this

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on your show, but I tasted another day, and I tasted a shiner, a wine

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with no label. And I tasted. I said, you know,

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and we're going through a wedding right now. My daughter's getting married in a couple

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of weeks, actually. Wait a minute. Thank you. It's less than that now. It's scary.

305
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And I think to myself, well, I suppose if this wine had

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a private label on it and it was part of a venue that

307
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did a lot of weddings, this would be okay. And I stopped myself. This is

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my own thought. I wasn't talking to anybody. I was talking to myself. I'm like,

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no, actually, if I'm going to have a wedding and invite guests,

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I want to pour nice wines. I want people to feel what you're talking about.

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Relax. Maybe even have a conversation about the wine at the table with their guests,

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the other guests. Why would I sacrifice one of the

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most important parts of the meal? Let me cut

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back on the valet budget, you know, Let me cut back and have a band

315
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that's not so good. It's like a fancy car without having the

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money to pay for gas. I mean, it's like make money for

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it, you know? Yes, that's what I think. Yeah,

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There's. I wanted to talk about your

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book. The. The Red, White, and Drunk All Over. So when you sat out after

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you set out to. To. To learn about

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wine with your husband, how long did. By the way, Just for fun, how long

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did it. Did the. The ensemble

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lessons last? Oh, he only took the one course.

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Our marriage lasted longer. That was a good 20 years. So. But.

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But yeah, he was done because then he deferred to me. You know how you

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do often in a relationship o wine. I'll do finances

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or whatever that stereotypical. But anyway, yeah, he. He did

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the one intro course with me, and then I. I took over.

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Did you learn. Did you learn, like, his palette? Because I

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have. My wife's palette is totally different than mine, and I. I ensure that

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I bring home things that she will appreciate. And I sometimes open two bottles because

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I'm not. I don't feel like it. Exactly. Yeah, no, he. He did. He

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had a different palette, and so does my current partner, Miles.

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And at first, Miles was drinking very

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Australian Shiraz, and I thought, oh, great. Wow. And then. And then. So we.

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I'd start opening wines, and one night he noticed that

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my red. My red wine was a different color. He said, what's that?

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And I. I just said, red wine. You have red wine. I have

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red wine. And as basic as it gets.

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Exactly. And then he said, no. What? That looks different. And

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so I had to explain to him that it was a Rhone Valley from

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Gigal and it was. It was pricey. So he said, I want to

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taste. This sounds awful of me, but he took a taste and

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he loved it. And then from there, he's been so much more

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expensive to. To keep in the market. He got rid of the

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inexpensive Shiraz and then just switched to that. So. But still,

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our tastes still differ. I mean, generally I actually enjoy Pinot,

348
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but he's still on that pricey Gigal Rhone Valley

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stuff. You got to keep him from going north. You know, don't get him into

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00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:33,930
the Cote Nuit, or else you're going to have big problems. Exactly, Exactly. There is

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no North France ends there for one at the Rhone Val.

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That's it. This is a conversation I had yesterday

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with a woman who's trying to

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look into the idea of starting a club for a very well known trade

355
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magazine, or not trade magazine, but consumer magazine. And she lives in

356
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New York. And I said, you can go to

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any. There's fine wine shops in New York on almost every corner, it seems

358
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like. And you can find really, really nice wines

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in Canada. Is it the same? I mean, how do you buy wine in

360
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Canada? What's the availability of different things like gigal your own

361
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wines or Cote du Nui Burgundies? What's the general

362
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availability given the liquor laws in Canada? Well,

363
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we're still more suffering from prohibition

364
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hangover than you are in the states in that

365
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most of the provinces have government controlled liquor

366
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stores. So in Ontario, we have the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, lcbo.

367
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And although. Exactly. And there

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are a few wine shops that are grandfathered

369
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into existence because wineries opened wine shops and so they're

370
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allowed to exist. But we do not have a privatized system here. They do

371
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in Alberta and in spots across

372
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the country, but it's very regulated. And so

373
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the availability depends on the buying power

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of those, those near monopolies.

375
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So the LCBO does have a lot of buying power, does present a lot of

376
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wines through its stores, but we just don't. We don't have a store that's,

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you know, like Tuscany is us kind of thing. If you just want to

378
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specialize in Tuscany, you really do have to go with the

379
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availability of what's in those liquor stores.

380
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Actually, yesterday I was, I was looking for pricing on the Bordeaux I really

381
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liked, and I just found in Southern California a Bordeaux shop. I'm like,

382
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like, wow, that can't be like doing that great. But actually

383
00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:37,300
during, during COVID Actually, it's been very good. But I just. When you said the

384
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lcbo, which, you know, I think it's like one of the largest

385
00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:43,020
retailers in the world, right? I mean, they buy everything.

386
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And Pennsylvania, up until recently in the US was the largest

387
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US Retailer because they had the same sort of restrictions, but

388
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just on the state level instead of a country level. But I just realized,

389
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okay, so Canada, suffering from a little bit of post prohibition

390
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and then headed south to. We suffer

391
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,840
from it. But Joe Kennedy was smart enough to give all his friends

392
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regional control over the booze distribution, so at least we have some freedom

393
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to. And each state has control over it, and some are more free than others.

394
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,040
But then you go to Europe and I'm wondering if there's a relationship between the

395
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,800
amount of time wine has been part of the culture and the

396
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,640
freedom to buy it and express it. So, yes, Europe, there's no

397
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,330
problem, right? Right. Most of the rest of the world has no problem. Then you

398
00:24:29,330 --> 00:24:32,450
go to the US we suffered through prohibition. It was political football.

399
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Still is. We're a little freer than Canada. And now Canada, probably

400
00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:40,850
the tail end of alcohol being part of

401
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:44,490
the culture, has the most restrictions. And why has this become

402
00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:48,330
a political thing? Why can't we just experience life as the

403
00:24:48,330 --> 00:24:51,890
Europeans do? Is there any wind of change coming or no?

404
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,670
Oh, yeah, I think change is coming. But wine has

405
00:24:55,670 --> 00:24:59,390
always been politicized, whether it's tariff disputes

406
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or just the sin taxes put on alcohol like it is on

407
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:06,270
gasoline and other goods that the government feels we don't really

408
00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:10,190
need to consume. But I do think change is coming

409
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:14,110
and, you know, consumers demand it. But now, you know, in a

410
00:25:14,110 --> 00:25:17,830
Covid, hopefully we're coming out of COVID But in

411
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:21,630
this environment, liquor laws are starting to loosen. For example,

412
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,260
restaurants could never deliver alcohol

413
00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:29,620
with meals. Now they can. Those laws have been changed,

414
00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:33,380
and the word is they're going to stay

415
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:37,140
changed. So you've got all of these restaurants now opening

416
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:40,900
up their own wine delivery business because, you know, it can include a saltine

417
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,620
cracker and that's the food. And then just sell, sell your

418
00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:48,180
stock of wine. And as we know, Paul, in the restaurant

419
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:51,750
business, customers will eat you poor and drink you rich.

420
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:55,710
The margin is in all of the alcohol, but even the tea and the

421
00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:59,510
coffee. So I think change is coming. It took a disruptor,

422
00:25:59,750 --> 00:26:03,590
an inflection point like Covid that I think is an accelerant that brought

423
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:07,070
the future forward 10 years. But that's a good thing because we're starting to get

424
00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:10,230
more options and I think it will continue. Well,

425
00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:14,510
you're right. I agree with that. And in

426
00:26:14,510 --> 00:26:18,270
America, it changes fluidly. In 1988,

427
00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:22,030
when I bought the company from my father, you really nobody really cared. I mean,

428
00:26:22,030 --> 00:26:25,670
you just shipped because it wasn't a thing then. My dad invented the idea in

429
00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:29,510
the 70s. So even in the early 80s and late 80s,

430
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:33,390
you just did it. If you loaded the UPS truck with 200 boxes, you only

431
00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:36,870
manifested 150. Nobody really cared. And it could have gone anywhere.

432
00:26:37,110 --> 00:26:40,670
And there were there they we reciprocity

433
00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:44,150
states in California. So if, if Minnesota or Missouri

434
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:48,820
wrote a law that resembled our law, which said

435
00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:52,260
basically, hey, we can ship wine to your state and you can ship wine to

436
00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:56,060
our state and we don't care. We're not going to tariff or tax anybody and

437
00:26:56,060 --> 00:26:59,180
that those are still around. But they're different than they were. A lot of them

438
00:26:59,180 --> 00:27:02,099
went different ways. And so we're still seeing in the U.S.

439
00:27:03,140 --> 00:27:06,980
challenges to liquor laws in some states, strapping

440
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:09,460
down more in other states loosing it up.

441
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:15,210
But it's the problem with America is

442
00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:19,530
we're getting sued now for shipping stuff.

443
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:24,290
There was an article came out the other day where it was determined that one

444
00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:27,610
in three bottles shipped to Michigan last year were illegal.

445
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:31,770
You know, whatever that means. And I would suggest it's probably more than that. Not

446
00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:35,050
illegal, but probably two and three bottles

447
00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:39,580
are illegal. But it's up to

448
00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:43,420
us for a lifestyle to decide. In my

449
00:27:43,420 --> 00:27:46,500
opinion, if we want to have wine in our meal and we want to be

450
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:49,580
able to buy it openly, I think the consumer has to step up. We have

451
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:53,100
a group here called Free the Grapes and be able to have access to whatever

452
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:56,820
we want. What's interesting about the human race

453
00:27:56,820 --> 00:28:00,100
is that we're very creative. So when the governor of

454
00:28:00,340 --> 00:28:04,150
California shows up at the French laundry and

455
00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:07,990
for $800 a seat, which we were there two

456
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:11,350
weeks before he went, you know, I'm sure you're aware of the story.

457
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:15,110
And my wife was like, I want to, I want to go in the room.

458
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:18,950
Because the French Laundry has four or five rooms and normally during

459
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:22,590
regular hours there's four or five tables in each room. But what they

460
00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:25,430
decided to do during COVID was that they that you could

461
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:29,760
rent one room privately at that time. And, and

462
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,560
then this per seat cost Pre fixed came

463
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,320
$800. Wow. Okay. And if you're outside and the

464
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,080
regular dining area during the patio was $400. Okay. So it's expensive.

465
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,920
What a deal. Yeah. But Newsom was in the $800 section.

466
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,240
Just so you know, just for the set the record straight. But

467
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,480
after that, Newsom decided that he was going to tell us

468
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,120
what was acceptable food. And you said he could deliver saltine.

469
00:28:58,010 --> 00:29:01,250
Canadian wine delivery can have a saltine and call it food. Right. So we are

470
00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:05,050
serving 25 cent top ramen at some of the bars to

471
00:29:05,050 --> 00:29:08,250
get around that code. Right, Right. It works.

472
00:29:08,890 --> 00:29:11,770
Then they came out. This is a true story. They came out with a list

473
00:29:11,770 --> 00:29:15,570
of foods that qualify for brasserie style

474
00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:19,330
food. So it was okay to serve a chicken breast on

475
00:29:19,330 --> 00:29:22,410
a plate, but not chicken wings. Okay.

476
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,900
I mean seriously, time on their hands. Who are making these? Can you imagine this?

477
00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:31,620
It was written that way. It was literally written in an article

478
00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:35,540
in the code that chicken breast qualifies for real

479
00:29:35,540 --> 00:29:39,260
food out of brasserie, but chicken wing

480
00:29:39,260 --> 00:29:42,860
does not. It just boggles your mind. And then you have to.

481
00:29:42,860 --> 00:29:45,460
Who's going to enforce this? I mean, who's going to go around and be chicken

482
00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:49,180
wing, Chicken wing police? I'm sorry, it's all cut up now. I can't

483
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:52,660
tell you. But you know, Paul, we have that same thing going on in Canada.

484
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:56,600
Our laws in terms of cross border shipping are

485
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,200
nuts. And again, it's largely due, I

486
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,040
believe, to the liquor stores who don't want to lose

487
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,720
their revenue or who want to keep taking the tax revenue and turning it.

488
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,280
Well, they do turn it over to the government, but still it's a way of

489
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,920
maintaining control. But we have free my grapes as well.

490
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,680
But what surprises me is that

491
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,290
wine is the most value added

492
00:30:22,370 --> 00:30:26,170
agricultural product we produce in this country and probably yours

493
00:30:26,170 --> 00:30:30,010
as well. It's the only product we put in the original packaging on the

494
00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:33,330
dinner table. We don't, you know, I think we talked about this. We don't have

495
00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:37,090
the stickers on the apples or the strawberries. And

496
00:30:37,090 --> 00:30:40,530
yet we're not allowing these small farmers, which is what

497
00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:44,330
wineries are, to increase their market and

498
00:30:44,330 --> 00:30:47,900
allowing consumers to increase their diversity of

499
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:51,740
taste from something that is truly homegrown. I mean, it

500
00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:55,100
just, it boggles my mind that we are not supporting farmers in this way.

501
00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:00,500
Excuse me. This is interesting because I've been taking some notes as you're

502
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:04,140
talking. Wine is farming.

503
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:07,580
It is fancy farming. Yep. What it started as.

504
00:31:08,220 --> 00:31:11,900
I don't think the consumers know that most wine

505
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:15,620
farms are just that they're not wineries. Actually. They sell their grapes to a

506
00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:19,320
variety of wineries and they start, a lot of them start out. I

507
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,080
can't tell you how much wine I taste here. That started as well. We

508
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,600
used to farm grapes. We sell them at Silver Oak, we sell them at Camus

509
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,000
or something. And now we make our own wines. And that's, that's probably not a

510
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,240
good idea. But it happens all the time.

511
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,080
When I go to the wine shop and I went not too long ago

512
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,720
to the supermarket, just my wife hates it because when I go to the supermarket,

513
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,040
I veer off to the wine section and she's out trying to shop and I'm,

514
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,720
you know, screwing around around checking the prices. But in

515
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,720
the local vines, in the beach area here, every single

516
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,680
wine had a shelf talker, which is for the listeners, one of those

517
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,520
tags that hangs down and it's got the point system. And

518
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,320
I'm looking at as A trying to pull myself back, being in the industry. And

519
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,080
I know much of the wines I've tasted there. But how do I

520
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,320
figure this out? I mean, I'm looking at a shelf talker. How do I know?

521
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,770
Isn't it confusing to. To. To all these ratings and all.

522
00:32:12,850 --> 00:32:16,650
Everybody's got a rating now, and they're all over 90. They're all

523
00:32:16,650 --> 00:32:20,410
over 90. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I guess you can find anyway,

524
00:32:20,410 --> 00:32:24,010
but is that the same in Canada? And how do we as consumers try

525
00:32:24,010 --> 00:32:27,850
to sort through all this? It. It is. It's. There's

526
00:32:27,850 --> 00:32:30,690
many issues associated with that. It's a great, great question.

527
00:32:31,810 --> 00:32:35,170
So every wine has a rating now, and

528
00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:39,610
I think it's because wine is unlike so many other products we buy.

529
00:32:39,610 --> 00:32:43,310
We can't try it, usually, at least legally, before consuming.

530
00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:46,990
And, you know, we're going on the label most of the time. You know, you

531
00:32:46,990 --> 00:32:50,110
can try on a dress or a suit, you can read the first chapter of

532
00:32:50,110 --> 00:32:53,950
a book, but you can't open that wine. And so then the

533
00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:57,590
externals start to matter a whole lot more. The label, the

534
00:32:57,590 --> 00:33:00,990
shelf talker. And. And most of us are too

535
00:33:01,390 --> 00:33:05,190
intimidated to talk to liquor store staff, even though they could be a great help.

536
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:08,510
And I suggest that as much as you would a sommelier in a restaurant.

537
00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:12,790
So that's what we're down to. And so the liquor store wants to sell

538
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:16,310
every wine it buys and puts out there on the shelf. So it's going to

539
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:19,590
look for the highest scores it can from

540
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:23,190
whatever source. So it loves every wine,

541
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:26,870
but you necessarily won't. And even if it is a

542
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:30,630
92 or a 94, you might not like that wine. So

543
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:34,750
what I recommend to my students and podcast listeners and so

544
00:33:34,750 --> 00:33:38,170
on is finding. Find someone whose palette lines up with

545
00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:41,610
yours so that you know that when

546
00:33:41,770 --> 00:33:45,530
that person gives it a 92, it's something you're going to like,

547
00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:49,930
because there's a lot of great inflation going on. I mean, just there's

548
00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:53,650
crazy scores now where everything's getting a 98 or a 99 from

549
00:33:53,650 --> 00:33:56,850
certain sources. But you have to learn, is that a

550
00:33:56,850 --> 00:34:00,290
trustworthy source? Or at least do I trust it? Does my

551
00:34:00,290 --> 00:34:04,040
palate line up with that person's rating and score?

552
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,760
And then beyond that, the final tip I always give is make sure you're looking

553
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,440
at the words, not just the numbers, because it might be a 94

554
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,280
for Beaujolais, but you don't like light red wines. That's a

555
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,879
great point. Yeah. Look at the words. Is it. Do you like

556
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,800
Light versus full bodied red. Well, red versus one's pretty

557
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,520
obvious. But, you know, do you like lots of mouth watering, juicy acidity, or

558
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,320
do you like something that is a bit calmer and not as juicy?

559
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,600
You gotta look at the words, too, not just the. I think that's a really

560
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,940
important point if we're trying to experiment,

561
00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:41,580
trusting the description of this

562
00:34:41,580 --> 00:34:44,380
rating system. And I think you're right. I think if you can choose the rating

563
00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:48,180
system that you like, if it's a Spectator enthusiast, James Suckling. And now there's

564
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:51,740
some new, new ones out there. And I just started, frankly,

565
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,740
with wines that I think are really good. Not. Not everyone, I think the consumers

566
00:34:55,740 --> 00:34:59,180
and listeners should know is rated. I mean, it's a conscious decision

567
00:34:59,660 --> 00:35:03,480
to get your wine rated it. And there's a lot of political reasons why

568
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,840
you would or wouldn't do it. You know, you might be afraid to get a

569
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,520
bad score or a low score, and you can't publicize that. But, you know, you

570
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,880
have to send those wines to the rating system, you know, to whoever you're rating

571
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,240
the wines. And you have to wait for the publication to come out. And so

572
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,880
there's. Most wines are not rated. Particularly

573
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,000
small boutique wineries just don't bother. So you may not see

574
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,210
everybody with a rating, but I think it's important to know

575
00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:32,450
that there's some consistency amongst the ratings. And

576
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:35,330
look, if you're talking about James Suckling, he is not tasting all the wines of

577
00:35:35,330 --> 00:35:39,130
rating themselves. He can't. He's got hundreds, probably thousands of wines to taste, and he

578
00:35:39,130 --> 00:35:42,649
has a panel of guys that do it for him, just as he started at

579
00:35:42,649 --> 00:35:46,290
the Spectator. But I think finding a consistent source

580
00:35:46,450 --> 00:35:50,170
of what you like and what you trust is an important way to

581
00:35:50,170 --> 00:35:53,930
do it. The way we've been doing it our office now. Well,

582
00:35:53,930 --> 00:35:56,820
it's always been the same premise, but never

583
00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:00,660
publicized. And so I started calling it Tuesday's Tastings.

584
00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:04,060
So if you see a TT around, you can be fine. It's a very important

585
00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:07,820
thing. But I. But. And we do score. Everything I, everything

586
00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:10,260
I sell has got a 90 plus rating from me,

587
00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:15,220
because I'm not rating it against the universe, I'm rating

588
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:18,900
it against its peer. So other $20 cabernets,

589
00:36:18,980 --> 00:36:22,660
this is a 98, because that one's an 88. So you're fetching

590
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:26,570
price. Yeah, factoring the price, looking at that shelf

591
00:36:26,970 --> 00:36:30,370
and saying, okay, all those $20 cabs, that's a

592
00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:34,130
98. This is a 75. So it's a slightly different approach because

593
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:37,650
I do get customers asking, why'd you get that wine?

594
00:36:37,650 --> 00:36:40,890
98? I didn't like it. I'm like, well, amongst other $20

595
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:44,690
cabernets, it was worth it based on what I taste. But

596
00:36:44,690 --> 00:36:48,330
I can't please all the palates all the time. No, you can't. It's impossible.

597
00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:52,290
But I think, Paul, that people will follow you and your individual

598
00:36:52,290 --> 00:36:56,030
taste, which is a good thing. Now, there's lots of T panels where you

599
00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:58,790
get a group of, I don't know, eight to 10 people, and they come up

600
00:36:58,790 --> 00:37:02,110
with one score. And to me, that drags wine down to an

601
00:37:02,110 --> 00:37:05,750
innocuous middle ground that I don't think serves anybody.

602
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:09,270
Because you're going to get the person on that panel who loves that

603
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:13,110
juicy, acidic Riesling, and then the one who thinks it's too

604
00:37:13,110 --> 00:37:16,870
tart or whatever. And I just think that's why in the wine

605
00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:20,230
world, we know individuals more than we know panels.

606
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:24,310
Like, you know, Robert Parker. He was so famous as a US wine critic.

607
00:37:25,350 --> 00:37:28,790
But, you know, who is the tasting panel for Wine Enthusiast

608
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:32,590
magazine? I'm not sure. I mean, there are certain names that even, you

609
00:37:32,590 --> 00:37:36,270
know, contribute to these magazines. But I think wine is such

610
00:37:36,270 --> 00:37:40,070
an individual experience that for me, at least, you need

611
00:37:40,070 --> 00:37:43,630
to find an individual whose palette lines up with your

612
00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:47,230
own and trust that rather than a sort of communal consent

613
00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:50,830
of that, you know, as I say, beige middle ground

614
00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:53,590
of. Everybody sort of liked it, but. But no one in particular.

615
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:58,070
I think I told you this story. There was a Cabernet came by here

616
00:37:59,030 --> 00:38:02,350
a few months ago, and I really, really liked it. And it hadn't been rated,

617
00:38:02,350 --> 00:38:05,750
never been sent in. So I contacted the broker. And in

618
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:09,190
America, we buy wines through wholesalers. The regular group,

619
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:12,630
Southern Yachts and Spirits, Young's Market, rndc, whoever it is.

620
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:16,310
Big, thick books of wines, tons of things to choose from. And then there's

621
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:19,700
brokers that just go, hustle, stuff, stuff. And they bring in some really

622
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:23,220
amazing things. And so she brought in this gorgeous Cabernet. And I said,

623
00:38:23,540 --> 00:38:26,380
and I don't meet. I don't want it to have ratings. I don't ask them

624
00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:29,220
to make sure there's ratings. I don't care if there's a rating. I just ask

625
00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:32,980
if there is one just to understand what they've done with it. She goes,

626
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:36,820
no, but do you want one? I'm like. So I go, what is that? She's

627
00:38:36,820 --> 00:38:39,580
gonna shop it around for a rating? Yeah, she's gonna go give it to an

628
00:38:39,580 --> 00:38:43,060
MW and say, you know this guy 98 from so. And so.

629
00:38:43,460 --> 00:38:47,220
So that kind of defeats the whole, whole. The whole thing, Right. That leads to

630
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:52,660
the next conversation. It's a good segue to these

631
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:56,460
celebrity wines. I just read yesterday that Gordon Ramsay came out with a

632
00:38:56,460 --> 00:38:59,940
whole brand of, I think they're Central coast of Monterey based

633
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:03,900
Pinot and Chardonnays. Wow. Pinot and Chardonnay. I would expect him

634
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:07,660
to do something honking big like an Amaroni or whatever and have foul language

635
00:39:07,660 --> 00:39:11,220
on the back of the label. But it's

636
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:15,030
interesting, right? Well, they're through Siebold

637
00:39:15,030 --> 00:39:18,470
and it's Chris Miller, the famed Master Psalm and he has a

638
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:22,390
winery himself called Siebold now. So there's a Master Psalm who's making wine, which there

639
00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:26,190
are a handful of those guys. It's interesting to me because

640
00:39:26,190 --> 00:39:29,390
again, we go back to these acronyms. It doesn't mean they're any better winemakers than

641
00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:33,110
anybody else because they studied all this. They understand it for sure. But

642
00:39:33,110 --> 00:39:36,150
winemaking is science and biology and

643
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:40,220
fermentation science. So. So it doesn't make it that you're a good winemaker

644
00:39:40,220 --> 00:39:43,180
just because you have an MW or Ms. But regardless,

645
00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:49,020
typically over the years celebrity endorsed

646
00:39:49,020 --> 00:39:52,620
wines have not worked in America. Have you seen them in Canada?

647
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:55,100
And are they people care?

648
00:39:56,620 --> 00:40:00,220
Well, we've seen lots of celebrity wines.

649
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:04,070
I don't know that they have that much staying power because if, if you're

650
00:40:04,070 --> 00:40:07,830
paying a premium for that brand or that

651
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:11,430
celebrity cachet, I'm not sure it's worth it.

652
00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:16,550
We talked about this, I believe on my podcast, but Snoop

653
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:20,310
Dogg has just launched up here in Canada and we talked about Cali

654
00:40:20,310 --> 00:40:24,110
Red and the shelves making its way down in popularity going

655
00:40:24,110 --> 00:40:27,950
to the low shelf. So it'll be interesting to see how that goes up here.

656
00:40:27,950 --> 00:40:31,680
Oh, I do know one of our national newspaper columnists said, said

657
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,280
it's so sweet it ruins the finish or whatever. He gave it a really

658
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,000
low score, like low for the price. And so I

659
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,520
can't imagine that's going to go for well, so, but, but

660
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,360
at the same time, I think there are celebrities who

661
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,120
actually care about wine and do a good job and often

662
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,200
their names aren't on the label. If you think the singer Pink, her

663
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,810
brand is Wolf something. And then you've got,

664
00:40:59,050 --> 00:41:02,490
well, they divorced, but Brangelina, Brad Pitt and Angelina

665
00:41:02,490 --> 00:41:05,530
Jolie with Miraval, made by a very great

666
00:41:05,850 --> 00:41:09,690
winery in the Rhone Valley. So you do

667
00:41:09,690 --> 00:41:13,409
have exceptions to the rule. But I find on principle

668
00:41:13,409 --> 00:41:16,970
there are exceptions. Not usually celebrity wines,

669
00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:21,650
their go tos. Well, there's a couple I have a Couple of

670
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:25,130
pins to that one is, yeah, you're paying a premium. There's no way Gordon

671
00:41:25,130 --> 00:41:28,840
Ramsay or. Or Snoop Dogg or anybody else is putting

672
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,680
their name on the label without a fee. Yes, that's just

673
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,440
business. And unfortunately, wine is business. The people that make

674
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,720
wine, they grow grapes to make wine. They're in it

675
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,920
to make money. We're not going to throw crops away because mildew

676
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,360
is coming and we're not going to sulfide it. If we're into that. No sulfite

677
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,960
type thing. We're going to do it because it's business. We got to put it

678
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,840
in the bottle. And I think that's also the premise of a lot of bad

679
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,410
wines. There are bad wines out there. They're from bad grapes.

680
00:41:56,970 --> 00:42:00,170
There are good grapes that make bad wines, too, from the winemaker's point.

681
00:42:00,490 --> 00:42:04,250
So they're bottled and. Or they're sold in bulk and they're blended

682
00:42:04,250 --> 00:42:08,050
with other things to soften them. And you mentioned the sugar

683
00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:11,730
content of Snoop Dogg's wine. That's the classic way to

684
00:42:11,730 --> 00:42:15,490
do two things. One is make it more approachable for the regular

685
00:42:15,490 --> 00:42:19,090
wine drinker. And my experience here at the Wine of the Month Club is yes.

686
00:42:19,090 --> 00:42:21,710
Why does it have a little bit of residual sugar in the. Them tend to

687
00:42:21,710 --> 00:42:25,270
do pretty well, you know, because they're softer and easier to drink. They don't have.

688
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:29,390
They're hard to drink a lot of because eventually this comes cloying

689
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:32,150
and hard to drink. But the initial

690
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:35,990
expression of the sugar is more approachable.

691
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:40,150
And so that's. That is definitely one of the things that they do to cut.

692
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:42,990
And also to cut the bitterness. Right. They put a little bit of sugar in

693
00:42:42,990 --> 00:42:46,070
there because the grapes are so good in the first place. But. So is he

694
00:42:46,070 --> 00:42:49,040
going to call it Cali Red in Canada? What does he call it? Something else.

695
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:52,550
Like it's got his name on it, Snoop Dogg. And they've got this great big

696
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:56,670
metal statue of him in one of the. Oh, do they really? And he's got

697
00:42:56,670 --> 00:43:00,510
corks all at his feet. I don't know what's going on, but. But you know,

698
00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:04,190
you're right. Sugar and oak, often the ketchup of the

699
00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:07,830
wine world, used to sort of hide bad grapes or poor

700
00:43:07,830 --> 00:43:11,590
winemaking. If you. If that's all you're tasting or that's the primary

701
00:43:11,590 --> 00:43:15,140
sensation, you probably aren't looking at well made wines. Wine.

702
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:18,820
Yeah, because they're gonna. There's a big. There's a big difference between oak

703
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:22,420
that's been infused into the wine through chips or

704
00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:25,900
Staves to flavor it versus wines aged in

705
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:29,740
barrel to actually soften it and then give it the nuances. And

706
00:43:29,740 --> 00:43:33,540
I think that's important to understand. So this Gordon Ramsay thing, I'm

707
00:43:33,540 --> 00:43:37,220
thinking, okay, he's gonna. It's gonna sell

708
00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:40,820
some, you know, and I. And I think most of the

709
00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:44,580
time that the celebrity approach is that, well,

710
00:43:44,580 --> 00:43:47,020
I'm a really special person

711
00:43:48,140 --> 00:43:51,860
and so people will buy it because it's mine. Now the other day I

712
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:55,580
had a wine. It was from Terrell Owens, a football NFL

713
00:43:55,580 --> 00:43:59,300
player. I'm thinking myself. I mean, seriously. And

714
00:43:59,300 --> 00:44:02,620
I know who made it. I know what I could buy the juice for if

715
00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:06,340
I just bought it for myself. Considerably less than that bottle of wine

716
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:09,540
that they want to charge because Terrell owns his names on it. Not dissing Terrell

717
00:44:09,540 --> 00:44:13,180
Owens. I don't even. Wasn't even sure it was his football career. But

718
00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:17,780
why would we think that a football player or a basketball player

719
00:44:17,780 --> 00:44:21,180
or a golfer's wine has anything to do with

720
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:25,180
anything? Exactly. Yeah. And there was even a study on this

721
00:44:25,180 --> 00:44:28,380
Paul at a university here in Canada, Brock. And

722
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:32,260
they did blind panel tastings with different celebrities, except they made the

723
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:35,900
celebrities up. And one was a wrestler and one was a golf pro

724
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:39,500
and one was a football and then a hockey and you know, the

725
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:43,250
wrestler ended up up at the bottom. But just as we might expect, the golfer,

726
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:45,890
that gentil lots of rolling greens

727
00:44:46,530 --> 00:44:50,130
association was more brand on brand for wine.

728
00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:54,050
So there you go. Really? Yeah. You know, I was, I was

729
00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:57,330
actually. I'm going to tell the story because it's really

730
00:44:57,410 --> 00:45:00,810
crazy, but I was. I was in an rfp. I was in a

731
00:45:00,810 --> 00:45:04,130
proposal mode to be the Professional Golf Association

732
00:45:04,850 --> 00:45:08,370
Wine club. And so you would think that there's affinity between golf and

733
00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:11,900
wine. You would actually think, and I'm to say this out loud, that

734
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,340
there's an affinity between food and wine. Of course there is when we drink and

735
00:45:15,340 --> 00:45:19,180
eat. But there really is no marketing affinity. It's

736
00:45:19,180 --> 00:45:22,180
very difficult to define that for you. But

737
00:45:22,820 --> 00:45:26,500
we have not found over the years of pure marketing business that

738
00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:30,180
foodies are necessarily any more better wine buyers

739
00:45:30,180 --> 00:45:34,020
as far as quantity and what they like. But regardless, the golf association

740
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:37,490
was looking for a club to start and they felt that there's this

741
00:45:37,490 --> 00:45:41,050
huge assimilation between golfers and

742
00:45:41,050 --> 00:45:44,810
wine. So I won the bid. I went through a whole presentation and

743
00:45:44,810 --> 00:45:47,890
we're going to start this club. At that time, there were 16

744
00:45:47,970 --> 00:45:51,330
golfers that had wines. And I was invited to

745
00:45:51,809 --> 00:45:55,490
Pinehurst and present all the wines to a group of people

746
00:45:55,490 --> 00:45:59,210
that were Interested in knowing. And this one couple came, she says, oh, we just

747
00:45:59,210 --> 00:46:03,020
bought a bottle of. I forgot who the golfer was, was from the clubhouse.

748
00:46:03,020 --> 00:46:06,380
And they paid like 30 bucks. Okay, for this bottle of wine,

749
00:46:06,620 --> 00:46:10,140
right? And I was just offered the same juice with the

750
00:46:10,140 --> 00:46:13,860
standard label from that winery for $3 a wholesale cost. Oh, no.

751
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:16,300
Oh my gosh. I felt so bad for them. They're like, what do you think

752
00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:20,140
of it? I'm like, you know, I don't know. But none of those

753
00:46:20,140 --> 00:46:23,620
golfers are have wine still. Except for Greg Norman, because he actually

754
00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:26,940
owns two wineries. So. And Morgan, his daughter, actually

755
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:30,720
manages the wineries and manages the source of the grand grapes and manages what the

756
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:34,360
wine tastes like. But none of the golfers have wines

757
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,160
today. And one of them was really good. It was Fred Couples. I

758
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,560
forgot who made the wine, but it was a well known winery in Napa. But

759
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,320
it was A$60 sangiovese. And if I'm a wine enthusiast,

760
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,480
am I going to walk into the wine shop and I know I can at

761
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,120
that time spend $60 on a, on a Alexander Valley Silver

762
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,960
Oak or Fred couple Senjiovasi. Right. You know,

763
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,640
it's a marketing game. Even though if you like Fred Couples still, it might be

764
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,140
a gag gift or whatever. But as you know, Paul,

765
00:47:03,220 --> 00:47:06,460
you know, what's on the label sells the first time, what's in the bottle sells

766
00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:10,220
the second time. And people get to see the quality. That's right. Bucks

767
00:47:10,220 --> 00:47:13,620
they're paying. So the

768
00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:17,380
irony of the end of the story is we never started the club.

769
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,940
And that was because the poor soul that was the liaison

770
00:47:22,020 --> 00:47:25,740
who used to work for the golf association, who thought this idea

771
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:28,900
was going to work and brought it to the PGA and brought me in on

772
00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:32,550
it, was walking from the first

773
00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:36,190
green to the second te in a promotional

774
00:47:36,190 --> 00:47:39,910
golf tournament with one of the presidents of like Titus or one of these big

775
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:43,590
companies and a tree fell and killed them. Oh, no, that's

776
00:47:43,590 --> 00:47:47,270
awful. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. And it kind of goes to show

777
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:51,070
you one of your time. But they called me immediately because I was one of

778
00:47:51,070 --> 00:47:54,630
the last phone calls he had made on his cell phone to discuss this

779
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:58,120
thing. And he had just gotten the contract from the

780
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,720
PGA that morning or the morning before. And we were about to discuss

781
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,480
the three way relationship between the PGA and why in the month club and him.

782
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,800
And it never happened. His name was Bruce Florine. It was really sad

783
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,200
and it was just kind of a crazy, crazy end of a story,

784
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,800
really. I should have brought that up and depressed the whole podcast.

785
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,680
Getting back to golf. Of course, the only thing I liked about it was going

786
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,380
back to the clubhouse after we had. Had fought our way through the greens and

787
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:30,140
having a nice glass of wine and steak, though they weren't branded. But

788
00:48:30,220 --> 00:48:33,740
yeah, that's my only association with wine. Gulf. There you go.

789
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:37,620
Well, he sets. That leads me to the next question. We've talked about this a

790
00:48:37,620 --> 00:48:41,380
little bit before, but worst moment in wine, you know, is

791
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:44,900
there such a thing as that? And what might it be for you that you

792
00:48:44,900 --> 00:48:48,300
just said, oh, my gosh, this is really not happening?

793
00:48:49,580 --> 00:48:53,180
Oh, so many where to start. So

794
00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:56,920
for my first book, Red, White and Drunk All Over, I decided to do the

795
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,760
Day in the life approach. Meaning I worked as a sommelier in a fancy

796
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,960
French restaurant. I worked in wine stores, I worked the harvest.

797
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,280
So in the restaurant, I thought I'd up the ante. And I'm naturally

798
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,239
a nervous, anxious person. And so I thought, why

799
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,000
not go for like a four diamond restaurant, a French Four diamond

800
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,640
restaurant here to make myself extra nervous. And

801
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,970
so, you know, was trying to disappear into the

802
00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:27,810
wallpaper, but I finally had to flap my baby wings and get out

803
00:49:27,810 --> 00:49:31,250
there on the floor and serve people expensive wines and

804
00:49:31,250 --> 00:49:34,450
Bordeaux in particular. And I remember there was this couple,

805
00:49:35,010 --> 00:49:38,690
two women actually, and they ordered very expensive wine.

806
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:42,530
And I started pouring it and my hand was shaking so much

807
00:49:42,530 --> 00:49:46,370
that I dribbled it on the beautiful, beautiful wine

808
00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:51,820
tablecloths. And so she didn't even look at me. Her

809
00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:55,660
voice in her face just turned really hard and she

810
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:59,220
kept talking to her friend. And then I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

811
00:49:59,220 --> 00:50:02,420
And like I was in this slow motion. I'm sorry. And so

812
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:07,220
she refused to look. And she said, that'll be all. And I felt for the

813
00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:10,820
first time what it felt like, wow. Dismissed. Like,

814
00:50:10,820 --> 00:50:14,460
not service. Wow. Yeah. And it was just like,

815
00:50:14,460 --> 00:50:17,340
oh, my God, I'm never going to do this to anyone who makes a mistake

816
00:50:17,340 --> 00:50:20,820
in a restaurant ever again. And so I just sort of slunk off and had

817
00:50:20,820 --> 00:50:24,340
to tell the manager and he comped, you know, an

818
00:50:24,340 --> 00:50:28,060
extra. I think it was either bottle or glass, but it was just so like,

819
00:50:28,060 --> 00:50:31,180
oh, my God, I have a solution for that.

820
00:50:31,340 --> 00:50:33,260
Okay, the wine pouring disc,

821
00:50:34,780 --> 00:50:38,460
that'll stop the drift. That's right. I should have

822
00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:41,420
came up with my. I don't know if they would have allowed them in this

823
00:50:41,420 --> 00:50:45,230
fancy place, but, yeah, it'd be like pouring with training wheel skills.

824
00:50:45,230 --> 00:50:48,870
I got my thing here. What would you think then as a

825
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:52,950
Wine educator? Well, no, no, not the wine educator. The chief of Wine

826
00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:56,670
happiness. What would you consider your strongest suit? Like, would it be the

827
00:50:56,670 --> 00:51:00,350
education aspect? Your tasting skills? You're just your. Your ability to describe

828
00:51:00,350 --> 00:51:04,030
wine, which is different for everybody, or pairing things. Writing skills, obviously, are

829
00:51:04,030 --> 00:51:07,670
very high in your list. Thank you. Yeah, well, I think,

830
00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:11,870
you know, tasting. I. I don't know. I've been identified as a super

831
00:51:11,870 --> 00:51:15,270
taster, which doesn't mean I'm a better taster. It just means I'm a more

832
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:19,700
sensitive one, you know, more taste buds than that. But I think

833
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:22,860
really what my passion is is

834
00:51:22,860 --> 00:51:26,700
storytelling. And whether that's through my online courses and trying to

835
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:30,340
connect with people through stories or the writing in the books,

836
00:51:30,740 --> 00:51:34,540
I just love stories. Like, we've already. You're a great, great

837
00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:38,260
interviewer, Paul. You're bringing the stories out of me, like, you know, sitting down, getting

838
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:42,100
interviewed for McKinsey or whatever. Just the one. We just come. But I

839
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:45,940
think that's how people identify with you. No

840
00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:49,420
one identifies with cold, hard perfection. Like, I know all the

841
00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:52,180
vintages of all the, you know, raindrops and everything.

842
00:51:53,140 --> 00:51:56,820
So you're sharing your humanity through a story, but you can also

843
00:51:57,540 --> 00:52:01,060
embed the. The wine education through that. And that's.

844
00:52:01,060 --> 00:52:04,660
That's really what I love to do. I've said this before,

845
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:08,020
but my mother always put my peas in the mashed potatoes because she was

846
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:11,740
hiding vegetables on me. So I love the creamy

847
00:52:11,740 --> 00:52:15,440
potatoes. But that's trying to do with stories is like, keep

848
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,880
someone entertained and interested,

849
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,720
but at the same time teach you a lot about wine,

850
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,480
whether, again, through the books or the online courses. How

851
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,920
do you keep that passion going? Because how do you keep

852
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,640
yourself educated? What are you doing to

853
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,200
keep motivated, to know the next step, to understand

854
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,640
what's coming into the thing? Let's just talk about biodynamic and organic wines for a

855
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,150
second. Very popular. People are interested and they're asking questions.

856
00:52:44,710 --> 00:52:48,310
What are you doing to learn, you know, to learn about it yourself? Well, this

857
00:52:48,310 --> 00:52:51,590
may be the lazy way out, but I just line up guests on

858
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:57,710
the Wine Talk podcast and ask somebody else. And that's the way

859
00:52:57,710 --> 00:53:01,030
I educate myself, because I just ask

860
00:53:01,670 --> 00:53:05,310
nosy, impertinent questions that I'd never get to ask if I were just at a

861
00:53:05,310 --> 00:53:08,950
dinner party with this person. So we'll dig right into biodynamics

862
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:12,780
or orange wines or whatever the latest trend is. But that's that'

863
00:53:12,930 --> 00:53:16,530
way I learned. I've always like being a writer gives you an excuse

864
00:53:16,930 --> 00:53:20,610
to nose your way into people's lives and ask them these questions. It gives

865
00:53:20,610 --> 00:53:24,370
you access, and that's the way I learned, by keeping

866
00:53:24,370 --> 00:53:27,570
curious and staying both

867
00:53:27,890 --> 00:53:31,610
neurotic and impertinent. You know, it's funny. Well, I wouldn't say

868
00:53:31,610 --> 00:53:34,770
impertinent, but maybe a little. No, just kidding.

869
00:53:35,490 --> 00:53:38,880
Absolutely. The questions I ask there.

870
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,040
We talked about Tilar Mazzio last time, the author of

871
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,240
Hotel Place Vendome and Widow Clicquot.

872
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,880
But that's exactly right. You know, I read her book because I

873
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,719
love the stories of the war and I love Paris and we love

874
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,440
the Ritz, we love Barr, Hemingway, and. And so I read this story and

875
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,160
I'm enamored and I find out that. That, you know, she has a winery.

876
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,280
So she's on the show. We're talking about wineries. Well, I found out from her

877
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,030
that she's part of the raw movement out of. Out of London and with

878
00:54:09,030 --> 00:54:12,790
Isabel Legeron and I get a chance to talk to. And so we

879
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:16,630
move forward as podcasters and media, like, well, that was an interesting story.

880
00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:18,550
I wonder where I can get to the root of that part of it. You

881
00:54:18,550 --> 00:54:22,350
know, exactly. One thing branches into another, and you just follow your line of

882
00:54:22,350 --> 00:54:24,390
curiosity. It teaches us a lot.

883
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:30,230
This kind of goes back to. I keep coming up with more subjects, and we're

884
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:33,900
running out of time here, but we talked about biodynamic wines, and

885
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:38,540
I had a Bordeaux last night that was biodynamic. It was fabulous. And

886
00:54:38,940 --> 00:54:42,500
I would have only known it was biodynamic by the taste, because they're a little

887
00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:46,260
brighter, they're a little fresher, they have a little bit more approachable character when

888
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:49,580
they're younger, they don't seem to last as long. They don't age well, but

889
00:54:50,140 --> 00:54:53,940
they sure are bright. But there are a lot of biodynamic and organic wines

890
00:54:53,940 --> 00:54:55,580
that taste like horse manure.

891
00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:01,480
I'm guessing this. You gotta use a fancy term. Yeah, Barnyard. Right.

892
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,960
Well, now they have the poop emoji. I got to make a horse poop emoji.

893
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,040
And maybe specific. What type of poop is it

894
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,880
exactly? So it's. It gets. And so I.

895
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,600
I keep thinking. I don't know if this generation. And

896
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,160
my. My daughter, who's the baker of New York, loves orange

897
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,000
wines. And she's. She actually taught me about them in the. When they first came

898
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,800
out, I had never even heard of them. And I'm thinking this generation, you know,

899
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,530
they stomaching these wines because a lot of them just aren't that

900
00:55:29,530 --> 00:55:33,330
good. It takes A long time, as you've probably learned with

901
00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:37,170
your podcasting and your. Your reading experience

902
00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:41,170
for a winery, let's say the three years minimum

903
00:55:41,250 --> 00:55:44,850
to become our certified organic or the three years minimum to become certified

904
00:55:44,850 --> 00:55:48,530
biodynamic, doesn't mean you make good wine from it. Right. It just means

905
00:55:48,530 --> 00:55:52,350
that you're. You're processing the grapes and you're processing in the winery

906
00:55:53,140 --> 00:55:56,740
to the standards that that certification allows you. But it

907
00:55:56,740 --> 00:56:00,420
takes a long time to understand when you've converted a

908
00:56:00,420 --> 00:56:04,220
winery from conventional to organic biodynamic, what those grapes are going

909
00:56:04,220 --> 00:56:07,900
to do, what they're going to taste like. How are we going to

910
00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:11,620
make the best wine from those new grapes that no longer.

911
00:56:12,020 --> 00:56:15,700
That are different from the ones that we grew before? Have you

912
00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:18,840
tasted some of these things and found them just to be really hard to. To

913
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,200
swallow? Yes, Swallow. Better word, swallow. Yeah,

914
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,040
exactly. Sure. There have been some real ugly babies

915
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,880
in the glass. And, you know, whether it's natural,

916
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,360
raw, orange, I mean, there's just some weird stuff out there. But I

917
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,120
recognize, you know, there's a whole world of taste and diversity in

918
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,880
drinkers as there is in glasses of wine. I just.

919
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,640
What I don't agree with is funkiness or weirdness for the sake

920
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,260
of. Of it. Like, it's just a wine should still be well made without

921
00:56:49,260 --> 00:56:53,060
faults. You know, it should be. Try to be typical of

922
00:56:53,060 --> 00:56:56,900
where it's from, but just being, you know,

923
00:56:56,900 --> 00:57:00,580
it's. It's like anything in music books and so on. You can be

924
00:57:00,580 --> 00:57:04,260
avant garde, but that can't be the only virtue of what

925
00:57:04,260 --> 00:57:07,660
you're creating. It's got to deliver some message, some

926
00:57:07,660 --> 00:57:11,020
pleasure, some. Something beyond. I'm just different.

927
00:57:11,340 --> 00:57:15,150
I'm weird things. Put it. Yeah. Okay, good. That was very articulate

928
00:57:15,150 --> 00:57:17,990
because, you know, who has not been to the national food market

929
00:57:18,790 --> 00:57:22,550
and bought carrots or turnips or something and just kind of. These just don't taste

930
00:57:22,550 --> 00:57:25,750
that good, you know, they're just not that good. But they're on trend. They're very

931
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:29,590
trendy. Yes. Just because they're organic doesn't matter. Yeah, we.

932
00:57:29,590 --> 00:57:32,470
You were talking about doing a giveaway. Yes.

933
00:57:33,190 --> 00:57:36,870
And so I have a. A text number for the listeners. And we'll have to

934
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:40,150
let this run for a little bit as the downloads multiply.

935
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:44,470
And we're going to run a contest. So if you're listening and you want to

936
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:48,070
win Natalie McLean's what

937
00:57:49,110 --> 00:57:52,550
my ultimate Guide to Pairing Food and Wine. So it's kind of

938
00:57:52,550 --> 00:57:56,150
template driven, so it's meant to be a simple Reference that you can use in

939
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:59,950
the kitchen. And so it's all styles of wine, all styles

940
00:57:59,950 --> 00:58:03,350
of food. It looks pretty comprehensive. Squeeze in there. Yes.

941
00:58:04,550 --> 00:58:08,190
And I just find it gives people guidelines. No hard and fast rules. Just

942
00:58:08,340 --> 00:58:12,140
because the first rule, of course, somebody said it, pair the wine to the

943
00:58:12,140 --> 00:58:15,780
diner, not the dinner. But if you want a jumping off

944
00:58:15,780 --> 00:58:19,420
point, these will give you some areas to look for the

945
00:58:19,420 --> 00:58:23,060
wine. If you know the food. Here's what might work, wine wise and vice

946
00:58:23,060 --> 00:58:25,940
versa. So that's really fun. We're very generous

947
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:28,220
texting to

948
00:58:28,220 --> 00:58:31,980
626-210-2380. And I'll repeat

949
00:58:31,980 --> 00:58:35,780
that in a minute to enter the contest to win Natalie

950
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:39,080
Maclean's food pairing guide. Just put in

951
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,680
Natalie in the text and we'll know who it is and we will

952
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,040
draw your name from a hat and you can win a set of of

953
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,520
pairing guides, which is an important part of what

954
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,200
we do because. Go back to a conversation I had with Jonathan

955
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,000
Waxman, the famed chef around here, and we'll close with

956
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,600
this thought. It's not that

957
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,440
long ago that I that my aha moment. And I've been doing

958
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,030
this for 30 years, but the aha moment of, of. And I'm going to

959
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:12,590
move the direction of what I do when I get

960
00:59:12,590 --> 00:59:16,350
home. Used to be, honey, what are we having? Or what can I make?

961
00:59:17,070 --> 00:59:20,310
And then I'd open the wine. And now when I get home, it's like, what

962
00:59:20,310 --> 00:59:23,549
do I feel like drinking? Do I feel like this Canary Island's red, or do

963
00:59:23,549 --> 00:59:26,910
I feel like a fine burgundy and spend $300 on the bottom of wine? Or

964
00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:30,070
do I feel like my regular Bordeaux, you know, from the Bordeaux club? What do

965
00:59:30,070 --> 00:59:33,830
I feel like drinking? Or in other words, how do I want to feel

966
00:59:33,830 --> 00:59:37,330
after I drink this? And then I worry about what's for dinner? And

967
00:59:37,490 --> 00:59:41,170
Jonathan Waxman said, yeah, that's what we do. I open

968
00:59:41,170 --> 00:59:44,370
the what I want to drink, and then I open the fridge to see what's

969
00:59:44,370 --> 00:59:47,330
going on in there to see if anything works. Is that happening at your house?

970
00:59:47,490 --> 00:59:51,010
Absolutely. I'm an earrings first kind of gal, and then I choose the

971
00:59:51,010 --> 00:59:54,650
outfit. So wine is always first. Not that wine is just an accessory,

972
00:59:54,650 --> 00:59:58,250
thank you very much. But I definitely, I lead with wine and then

973
00:59:58,250 --> 01:00:01,890
I figure out what can fit with this. The food, the people, the place.

974
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,560
Definitely I'm a wine first kind of person. I think it's a fun approach,

975
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,160
and I encourage listeners to start thinking that way and having a

976
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,800
variety of wines on their shelf at different

977
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,520
price ranges, depending how they feel to experience the

978
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,120
character. Natalie, it's been a huge pleasure having on the show. I hope we get

979
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,800
to do it again sometime. Absolutely. Paul, I would love to. I've

980
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,520
loved the chat we had on Unreserved Wine Talk podcast and this one.

981
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,640
I just think we could talk for hours. I know we could. We could.

982
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,990
One thing I think should note, though, with your listeners or viewers,

983
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:40,070
everyone can get this. It's not a contest if they go

984
01:00:40,070 --> 01:00:43,830
to nataliemclaine.com W as in wine of

985
01:00:43,830 --> 01:00:47,390
the month. So it's not just one person who will get it.

986
01:00:47,390 --> 01:00:50,870
It's everybody who wants it can get it at, As I said,

987
01:00:50,870 --> 01:00:52,950
NatalieMaclain.com wom

988
01:00:53,830 --> 01:00:57,270
nattymclain.com that's Natalie. I e

989
01:00:57,750 --> 01:01:00,790
Maclean M A C L E, A N

990
01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:05,740
and no H. No Hs Natalie. I have to get. I think I have

991
01:01:05,740 --> 01:01:08,300
PaulCanal Karen.com but I don't think there's anything on it.

992
01:01:09,980 --> 01:01:13,020
There you go. I know. Like, choose a name.

993
01:01:13,660 --> 01:01:16,460
What was my mother thinking? How about Smith?

994
01:01:17,419 --> 01:01:21,180
Smith is good. Mom. Cheers, and

995
01:01:21,180 --> 01:01:24,300
thanks again. I hope to see you soon. All right. Thanks, Paul. Cheers to you,

996
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:24,940
too. Take care.