Behind the Bottle: The Human Stories and Craft of Tuscan Winemaking with Ivo Assanelli

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You see how different areas or different people see the

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wine in different ways. But one thing is true,

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that if you have beauty in front of you,

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everyone can see it. And that's the same for wine.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks

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with Paul Kay. Hey,

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welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful

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Southern California about to have a conversation with Ivo Asinelli.

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Did I get it right? Yeah, it's perfect. He

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is a sales manager for Cairosa out of Tuscany, which has got an incredible

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history. We'll talk about that in just a second. But welcome to the show. Well,

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thank you very much. Thank you for having me here. It's fun to come to

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la, do some tasting, talk to some folks. Yeah, I mean,

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you were in San Diego for a little bit. I did. And then I'm heading

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a little bit to Florida. Just finishing my second trip here in the U.S.

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for us, it's a big market, so it's important to be here and to open

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some bottles and to share with great people. You know what, is that what it

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takes these days? Like you got to get out there, you're all the

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way from Italy and Tuscany, the great region of Tuscany, to

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get out, come to America and just open bottles and

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let people know what you guys are doing. Is that what it takes? Yeah, I

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guess that's the only, the only way, especially in such a difficult situation

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because I think we are in quite difficult condition right

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now. The market, the geopolitics round the wine, like the

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consumer is slowing down a little bit consumption. So it's very important

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to be out there to open bottles, especially for us, which we

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are still a small estate. So the only way

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to, to let us know is just to go around to carry those

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wines, to open the bottles and to share it with great people. So I wonder

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if that's. But is that really different? I mean, I suppose if

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the times were better and we talk about, for

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the, for the listeners or the watchers of the show, when we say the times

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are better, there has been a decrease in

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consumption. We've talked about that. There's a prohibition

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movement, sort of neo prohibition. There's a low alcohol, those things are going on.

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It's not a huge amount of pressure in this fact that it's

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I think single digit reduction in consumption.

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But I think it's a generational thing where like people like my

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age who do drink, you know, consume, I won't say I drink a

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lot, let's just say I consume. I think it's a mix

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of things for sure. It's generational for sure is also

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some other drinks are coming more in the young generation, of

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course, but I guess we need

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to. I guess also back in the days, I don't know at what age you

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start drinking wine, but usually you don't start in very young stage,

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but a little bit, yeah, especially also abroad. So I don't really

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think it's too much the young generation which are not approaching

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wine. The main thing is the way they approach wine the first few

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times, because sometimes they approach wine as alcohol,

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but wine is totally different. It's not a beverage. And

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that's the approach we all the system and all the wine

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industry is trying to point out. And that's why it's so important to move

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and going around open bottles to share the beauty behind

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it. It's not a beverage, it's not alcohol. It's just amazing liquid

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that carries stories, people in place. So that's why it's so

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important. And I agree with that completely. And that's

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why the original question was sort of like the fact that

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you're out here now really shouldn't change and won't change

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in the future. Because I think the wine industry, forever and a day,

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forever, we people who do this every day

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want to share that with people that don't do it every day

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to get the feeling that we get the understand what we

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understand. You don't have to understand wine, you don't have to study it.

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But eventually I think the human soul

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realizes that this product is not alcohol.

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It's a story 100% in a bottle, it's a story

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behind it. And of course it's about people

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who make it, but it's also about places. And of course it's

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about time because it's about the vintage. So of course the

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beauty and the strength about this liquidity, it's all

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this powerful connection. And the only way is to go to the emotional

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and to. To share these stories and these beautiful things. I was trying to think

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of any other product that I can't do it.

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You know, music would be another sort of

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telltale sign of culture because it

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does represent time based on the kind of music it is. It

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represents a culture because of the style of music it is. But there's no

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product you consume as a human, as you consume. I don't think so.

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But maybe if you, if you want to look at in a broader way, like

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hearts at the end, it can be a period, can be cultural, can be

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about the artist as itself. And you don't,

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you don't have to be an expert in art to

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get involved emotionally with art. That's true. And that's the beauty of wine.

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So some people know a lot about it, some people doesn't. But. But they all

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get emotional. That's a great point. And that's the strength about

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this. That's a good word. The emotional connection. I'm reading a book right

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now which people think I'm like, what are you talking about?

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Gertrude Stein, the famous sort of wine. Not

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wine, but book and painting critic in France

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back in the day. This is the 20s, and

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her partner was Alice B.

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Toklas and she wrote this. She. They wrote a lot of books. But

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when you said art. And now that I'm reading this story about

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Matisse and Picasso and Gauguin and all these people

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that would come into her apartment, just show up for dinner, for

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a drink, it was an open invitation in her apartment in Paris

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to come chat. And when you hear those stories

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about what that background was like and what they struggled with in those

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days to become famous, you realize there's so much more to

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that painting, just like a bottle of wine, than

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what meets the eye. And when you understand it, the appreciation

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grows. 100. And I'm sure when you understand

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all this background behind this, the painting

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speak even more, even louder, even more. Deepen. They

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connect to even more. And the wine is the same. Wine is the same way.

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Well, this is the part that bothers me a little bit about contemporary thought process.

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And you probably follow LinkedIn and all the social networking.

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I just wrote a little article about that because you have to do those things.

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People are trying to find ways to fix this issue

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through social networking metrics,

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through packaging, through potential style

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differences and sugar to the wine, whatever, grape, sugar.

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And I just don't think that stuff plays out. I mean, it plays out in

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a short term, but I don't see how putting

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wine in a pouch, you know that a kid

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that a child would use for applesauce

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fixes or changes the problem. It just,

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it doesn't address the real value of a glass of wine. It just comes up

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with some kind of 100%. And that's more towards wine

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as a beverage. So that's more the beverage side

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of wine, which doesn't stand for all the wines. And

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I think you have these two main categories were wine as

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a beverage, the wine you used to cook, the wine you use

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just to get a little bit tipsy. And then there's wine that

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you share just to get involved with the story. And

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behind for sure. I had a football, sorry

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cross country coach in high school that his thesis as a

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physical ed teacher was that you couldn't get drunk on a

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bottle of wine. And he tried to calculate it based on the. Because I

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tell people this all the time. In fact, I had a friend just thanked me

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for this conversation. 750 milliliters,

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which is 25 ounces or so. And if it's only 13 and

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a half percent alcohol, that's like 3 ounces for the whole bottle. Yeah,

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right. And if you have one martini at a bar, that's, you know, usually

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four to six ounces. So you've got to consume. He could drink the whole bottle

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of wine and not. We're not condoning that, of course.

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So when you're talking about the background, the history of wine and the story in

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the bottle, and I completely agree with it. We were just talking about

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Chateau Guiscor, which. So tell me the relationship. Chateau

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Guiscort, being a famed chateau in the left bank of Bordeaux,

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owns entirely Cairosa. Yeah, actually everything start

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in the early 2000 where Eric Albada Jekesma,

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this Dutch empreneur that acquired Chateau

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GI's Kure in 1995 and a few years later

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fell in love with this winery, Calla Rossa in the coast of

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Tuscany. The winery was already there, was just at the beginning was

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have been built and planted few hectares. Erica Reich

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fell in love with the area and decided to acquire it. And of course, taking

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all the background from Chateau Giscourt, from the Margaux appellation

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and to develop this project even more

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so he plants a little bit more vineyard. Now we are at 39 hectares

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in three different hills all around the coast

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of Tuscany. We're in a small town called

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Tuscany. You're talking about due west of

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like Florence? Well, yeah, actually we are in between

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Bulgaria and Livorno. You know, if you've ever been in the area. But

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it's just a beautiful area because you have the small coast where you have

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Bulgari, for instance, and then you have all the hills that surround this

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area. And Callerosa is right on top of those hills

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just in front of the coast. You have this amazing outstanding

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view on Elba island just in front and a little bit farther,

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coarse island, which is the big French island. I am

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fascinated by wines from

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islands like that, like Corsico, Sardinia.

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There's something about them. So when we talk about the coast. So you're talking about

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maybe that's about what? 80. 80 acres. California you know, American

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style. 39 hectares? Yeah. Should be around 80,

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which is substantial amount of. Of land in Bulgari

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being due south. Is that what it is? A little bit souther, yeah. Okay, so

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Bulgari being the home of Ora and some of the great

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super Tuscans, is that. Does that

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idea travel north, too, so that we're growing Cabernet,

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Merlot, Syrah, stuff like that? For sure. We have those varieties, those four

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varieties that we usually find in Bordeaux and of course, in Bulgari.

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The idea was a little bit farther than that. It was not

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to producing a Marco wine in Tuscany. The idea

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was to express the most and the best

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out of this complexity. So the first thing they did, Eric, with

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all the technical team, they start to analyze all the soils around

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the area and to see also the microclimatic condition of those

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parcels. And they finally

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realized that the soils were changing

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diverse. They're changing very quickly in few meters,

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like in Bordeaux. That's like Bordeaux and Burgundy. So what he said was, like,

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perfect. We are going to do micro parcel. And out

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of this small parcel, we're going to ferment everything

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separate. That's why we end up in 39

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hectares, but 59 parcel. Each parcel

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produces at least a wine. Those are small parcels,

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very tiny parcel. And the idea is like a chef

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in a restaurant, he does a lot of small preparation

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to then blend everything in. That's the very same thing. So

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we produce in each parcel, we ferment separately.

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And then the final act, maybe the most artistic one, where we

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have technical team of Chateau Giscourt, technical team of Calliarosa,

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sitting at the same table where we do the blending. There's so many thoughts.

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I'm having trouble organizing them right now, but because chateauguiscore, being

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a famed child, was a fourth growth or fifth growth. It's a third growth, actually.

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Third growth, you know, brings with a lot of history, a lot

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of. Of blending technology. Right.

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We're not talking about Burgundy, where there's only one grape. We're talking about five potential

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grapes in Bordeaux. And then you. You bring that

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idea to Tuscany, where you've got these little micro plots, which is

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really small, you know, a hectare, a little more than a hectare,

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is the idea then, to try and produce the best

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representation of that soil and that

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terroir and what's going on in each parcel. Yeah, the

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idea is to. If I understand the soils, I

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understand what fit best. That's why they plant multiple

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varieties. We don't only grow the four varieties of Bordeaux. Or

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that we find also in Bulgaria. We grow 10 grape varieties,

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four white and six red varieties. Varieties that

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usually they don't really fit together. Of course we have the four of Bordeaux,

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Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Petit Verdot. But we also

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have Grenache and Syrah and of course

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Sangiovese. Wow, how interesting. It's very hard to

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find those varieties all together, especially on the coast

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where it's hard to find Sangiovese itself, even though it's the main variety,

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the king variety of Tuscany. What was growing there before he bought it?

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Well, actually since the beginning it was multiple varieties.

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So when he arrived, he used a little bit the know how of Chiskur,

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just to analyze even deeper, to be even more precise on

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defining parcel and on choosing the variety. The beginning was a

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little bit more. Was also older variety. So they focus only

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in the. The best fit for the microclimatic condition

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and for the plot. So here's, here's a personal question. Then you

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spend more time in Tuscany or more time in Bordeaux? Well,

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actually no, because I just got there and

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00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,440
Eric passed away a few years ago, so I never

230
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had the chance to meet him. Now we have the three brothers. Two

231
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,400
brothers and a sister, and Valerie

232
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,040
and Dennis and Derek, who takes care of both

233
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,120
estate, which they exchange each other. So at least

234
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,200
a few days a year, they are all coming, enjoying the

235
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sun. Wine family before that. Well, actually

236
00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:51,100
everything start with Eric in 95. So interesting what,

237
00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:54,900
what happened before that? Were they a businessman? Were they? Yeah, just businessman.

238
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:58,580
And then it was, it fell in love with wine and he

239
00:14:58,580 --> 00:15:02,060
decided to start with Jiscour. And if you think he

240
00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:06,060
revolutionized Jiscour a lot from the technical team, the first

241
00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:08,140
thing he did, it was a huge

242
00:15:10,070 --> 00:15:13,550
reinforcement on the vineyard. So he focus like he did in

243
00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:17,390
Calerosa, by improving each of the step from

244
00:15:17,390 --> 00:15:21,190
the very beginning through the very end. And that's, it's where

245
00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:24,590
we got Giscourt being an iconic. It's

246
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:28,030
iconic. I have a very, I have an

247
00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:31,510
affinity towards Giscourt just because we talked about my relationship with

248
00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:34,470
Veronique Sanders Van Beek, the wife of

249
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,800
Monsieur Bendique who runs Giscore. But not only that,

250
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,440
when we were, when I was in Wine Paris, we talked about this a little

251
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,080
bit. I'll talk about it again. It was like the last

252
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,680
hour or two of the show and they had a bottle of

253
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,480
Giscore that they said take this with you. Which I enjoyed that night

254
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,080
with my wife in our hotel. Room. And so, and this is the part

255
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,840
about wine being experiential that's so important for people to understand and

256
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,620
for you and I to discuss is that I'll remember

257
00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:08,180
that wine forever for that little gesture, besides the fact the

258
00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:11,900
wine's level of quality is very high and the value is very high. Actually,

259
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:15,620
in my opinion, just as little gestures

260
00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:19,220
that happen in our lives, it could be a dinner, it could be a sommelier

261
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:22,980
who comes to the table and make a recommendation for a kairosa wine,

262
00:16:22,980 --> 00:16:26,060
whatever, but I'll remember that forever. And

263
00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:30,590
in this crowded world of wine, this is the point I

264
00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:34,110
wanted to make. Earlier at Wine Paris, there were

265
00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:37,550
6,000 booths and I'm walking

266
00:16:37,630 --> 00:16:41,270
miles to get through them, you know, and I thought to

267
00:16:41,270 --> 00:16:44,510
myself, every one of these wineries here is vying

268
00:16:44,910 --> 00:16:48,630
looking for the same thing. Exposure to the

269
00:16:48,630 --> 00:16:52,430
client, whether a restaurant or a wine shop or, you know, distribution, all

270
00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:56,230
that. And I go, what other? What other show in the world has exactly

271
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:59,920
the same product, maybe slightly different from region to region or grape to

272
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,640
grape, but effectively vying for that same shelf?

273
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,000
Spot that shelf right there. The shelf of my dad's wine shop at the days.

274
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,000
It's a very difficult trek and a very difficult business,

275
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,880
but it still attracts people that own

276
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,880
chatgis like, I've done my business,

277
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,160
I want to be in the wine trade. What is this

278
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:23,960
romantic

279
00:17:27,789 --> 00:17:31,549
goal by people? This is a theoretical question. I'm

280
00:17:31,549 --> 00:17:35,349
not, you know, what is it? I think what I

281
00:17:35,349 --> 00:17:39,109
think is that the beauty of wine, the beauty of this business is

282
00:17:39,109 --> 00:17:42,949
passion, like you say. And there's many

283
00:17:42,949 --> 00:17:46,749
different business. And I had the opportunity to work mostly in this

284
00:17:46,749 --> 00:17:50,309
wine business. But when you see I take care of the sales, it's not just

285
00:17:50,309 --> 00:17:54,140
about selling is about sharing, it's about connecting.

286
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:57,980
And human value is the most important thing. But

287
00:17:57,980 --> 00:18:01,780
mostly just simply because we all love wine. Yeah. So we are first

288
00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:05,300
wine lover and then we work in the wine business. But

289
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:08,700
being everybody so in love with this liquid

290
00:18:09,340 --> 00:18:13,180
makes everything so much how it work, you know. But you have to

291
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:16,620
do it. How did you get started in it? Well,

292
00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:20,620
it's funny because I started in Italy. You can choose different high

293
00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:24,370
school and here you can change classes, but in Italy actually

294
00:18:24,370 --> 00:18:28,210
you choose the high school, which are very specific on topic. And I did the

295
00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:31,850
one of agriculture and ecology. So back then I was

296
00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:36,330
already started to study a little bit viticultural and ology,

297
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:40,690
agroforestry, etc. And then I fell

298
00:18:40,690 --> 00:18:44,410
in love with the chemistry of wine. How everything can change through

299
00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:48,490
the Period of wine and evolution. And at the same time, my brother

300
00:18:48,490 --> 00:18:52,020
graduate from university and become a winemaker.

301
00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:55,860
So he found his first job in Tuscany and I still remember

302
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:59,500
visiting him. Those amazing hill near

303
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,060
Monte. Beautiful hills. He was always

304
00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:06,500
outside on the outdoors in the vineyard, tasting

305
00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:10,180
grapes, understanding the future, how those grapes will taste

306
00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:13,980
in the battle in few years. And that fascinated me so

307
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:17,760
much. Montalcino is beautiful too. It is beautiful area. But

308
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,000
what's nice about wine, that every wine region

309
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,080
is just an amazing area. And if you

310
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,720
think about it, it's hard to think about wine region which is not gorgeous. No,

311
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,520
it's true. That's truly a wine region that's trying to

312
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,240
develop itself as a unique place, to be

313
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,640
a unique terroir, a unique. And that's why it's so

314
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,480
fun to travel the world to do this. It's not a day

315
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,160
goes by even now that I'm not selling wine anymore, but having

316
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,400
conversations like this one that I don't thank my father

317
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,400
for asking me to come join him in his business. When he started

318
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,520
that wine shop, I worked in for years, but I left. I went to corporate

319
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,560
America and I went to a little small software company. And then he called and

320
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,720
said, you know, I'm going to sell the company. You may want to come look

321
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,460
at it before I sell it. And how do you. You know, I can't

322
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:14,220
turn down my father at that point. And now I thank him. He was. Passed

323
00:20:14,220 --> 00:20:17,980
away a couple years ago, but every day for. For getting me involved, for

324
00:20:18,380 --> 00:20:21,900
it took. I don't know about you, so you. You're talking about university,

325
00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:25,860
seeing your brother go through the career. I sold

326
00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:29,100
wine probably for 10 years direct to the consumer

327
00:20:29,340 --> 00:20:32,980
before I realized what was

328
00:20:32,980 --> 00:20:36,640
happening here, what I was doing for people. I was just business

329
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,320
for me for 10 years. I did it for 35 years, but for 10

330
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,600
years I just was going through the motions of business.

331
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,200
Well, in my size, it's a bit different because now I take care of the

332
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,799
sales of Cairosa. But everything, it's just few

333
00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:55,440
years I'm in this, in the sales, what I like to say, the dark

334
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,720
side of the business, the sales. You don't say that

335
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,040
because actually I started as well. I took the path of my brother and I

336
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,890
said as a winemaker. So I did my experience around the world,

337
00:21:06,890 --> 00:21:10,570
but mostly in Italy in the production side. And then one

338
00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:14,130
day I received the opportunity to take care of the sales

339
00:21:14,370 --> 00:21:17,570
of a winery. And I was young and I was like, okay,

340
00:21:18,690 --> 00:21:22,530
I should try it and see what happened. And then I Move in. And

341
00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:26,690
at the end, what I realized after a few years in sales, I'm

342
00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:30,430
not a salesman. My job is to be a salesman. And it's a

343
00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:34,270
slightly difference because I cannot sell everything. I cannot sell this book. I

344
00:21:34,270 --> 00:21:38,070
cannot sell beers, I cannot sell any other things. I can

345
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:41,630
sell wine. Storyteller. Really? That's it. I can sell wine

346
00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:45,310
because I love it. Yeah. I deeply love what's behind it.

347
00:21:45,549 --> 00:21:49,190
And I just tell stories and they buy. You know, it's interesting because

348
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:52,830
I. I work for the largest sales organization in

349
00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:56,270
America at the time, in the 80s, called Xerox copiers.

350
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,640
And the number one thing that was always told to me by the experienced guys

351
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,520
was if you don't have a passion for this, what you're doing, if you don't

352
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,280
truly believe in your product, and depending on whether

353
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,120
you're solving a custom business problem or whether you're an emotional

354
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,880
problem or emotional issue with wine, you can't do it. Like,

355
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,640
you've got to be connected. And certainly connecting the wine

356
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,840
a lot easier than connecting the copiers. But, you know,

357
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,960
you have to believe in what you're doing and you have to believe that the

358
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,280
consumer is going to benefit from you making this

359
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,040
presentation or having these conversations. You see it every day though, right? Every

360
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,840
single day. Yeah. So let's go. Let's go. Back when

361
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,360
I. When I was working that shop, you know, this is the

362
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,040
70s, you know, the Border Lays

363
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,120
came up with copper sulfite, like in the 40s.

364
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,040
And so pre, really pre World War II,

365
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:56,300
probably most vineyards were organic, indoor biodynamic, at least.

366
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,900
Organic, Right. Rudolf Steiner's book wasn't. It was

367
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:03,620
built in the twenties, I think. Right. The biodynamic movement.

368
00:23:03,620 --> 00:23:06,860
But I find this really interesting. Was it

369
00:23:06,860 --> 00:23:10,700
biodynamic when they bought it? Well, actually, Cairosa,

370
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:13,140
yes. Since the very beginning, it was already

371
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:18,660
perceived with the philosophy on organic and biodynamic.

372
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:22,440
And of course the certification takes a little more years to get.

373
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520
So we are officially certified from 2005

374
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,640
with the first vineyards planted in 1998.

375
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,800
But the idea of biodynamic and

376
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,600
organic, it was not to follow this philosophy only from

377
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,880
the agricultural practice, but also for the whole

378
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,600
system and what they are doing in G school as well. Even though they are

379
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,240
not certified, but they are following and they are really taking

380
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,120
seriously what's not just what we do

381
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,780
above the soil on the vineyard can be organic with spraying,

382
00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:59,140
with what we really use, but

383
00:23:59,140 --> 00:24:02,980
mostly is to maintain the ecosystem alive from

384
00:24:02,980 --> 00:24:06,220
the soils, but also from the park. I don't know if you visit

385
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:10,060
Giskour, but the beautiful aspect of Giskour

386
00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:13,860
is this huge park and all the vineyards just

387
00:24:13,860 --> 00:24:17,260
around. So you have more than 100 hectares of park

388
00:24:17,660 --> 00:24:21,300
and 95 hectares of vineyards just around. They're like

389
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,740
hugging this park. You know, there's not much altitude

390
00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:28,420
in Margaux, just 20, 15 meters.

391
00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:31,860
So you need that park because it's just like

392
00:24:34,020 --> 00:24:37,700
helping with the temperature, especially by night. And

393
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:41,460
that decrease of temperature by day and night keeps the grapes

394
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:45,100
very healthy, but mostly keeps the aromas there and a

395
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,820
beautiful freshness and elegance. Well, in Callerosa is a bit the

396
00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:52,620
opposite, because we are quite in altitude. So for us, it's the excursion

397
00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:56,380
that give a lot of freshness by night. But the vineyards are

398
00:24:56,380 --> 00:25:00,020
quite small and the woods is all around. So it's

399
00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:03,740
about balance and the whole ecosystem, not just about what

400
00:25:03,740 --> 00:25:07,540
we are doing. Sorry to interrupt you. Is there a marine

401
00:25:07,540 --> 00:25:11,300
influence in Tuscany? Coming off the ocean? It's very important.

402
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:14,900
It's very windy, that area, so we have a lot of wine meal all

403
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:18,600
around because it's very windy day and night. Of course,

404
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,360
you have this saltiness as well in the wines. It came from

405
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,120
the maritime influence as well as the soil, which are very rich and

406
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:29,720
diverse. And that's the beauty of this area. I love

407
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,040
that. Maybe that's the reason I'm such a fan of Sardinia,

408
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,680
Sicily, Corsica. The Mediterranean influence. Right.

409
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,240
It's that Mediterranean salt thing, particularly in the whites,

410
00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:45,650
that there's that just salinity to it. Just so fake, but you can taste it.

411
00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:49,930
Well, here's my thought process on most of this, at least on a

412
00:25:49,930 --> 00:25:52,450
sustainable side of things, but certainly organic.

413
00:25:55,410 --> 00:25:59,250
I find it interesting that the human. The human race who

414
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:02,450
butchered, and particularly in America, butchered all the

415
00:26:02,610 --> 00:26:06,410
farms and, you know, basically choked

416
00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:09,820
them off under the soil from producing

417
00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:13,580
interesting. In foods that are healthy and

418
00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:17,300
come from that part of land, they screw

419
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:21,100
it up. And now they applaud themselves and pat themselves

420
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,820
on the back for going back to what was always like, for instance,

421
00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:27,500
in Burgundy, the monks had no pesticides

422
00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:32,300
or herbicides or insecticides. It was always organic.

423
00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:35,130
And the first wines that were coming through

424
00:26:36,410 --> 00:26:39,810
here at the Wine of the Month club, let's say 20 years ago, that were

425
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:43,450
organic and biodynamic tasted like horse manure.

426
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:47,130
Because they didn't. They didn't understand

427
00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:51,850
that actually the soil, on its own, improperly

428
00:26:51,850 --> 00:26:54,970
managed, could handle this. So they

429
00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:59,010
didn't know what that meant. And so when they stopped using pesticides and

430
00:26:59,010 --> 00:27:01,850
herbicides, et cetera, they got this stuff. And it was so hard to drink. I

431
00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:05,660
mean, it really was not very good. And I always thought that was strange

432
00:27:05,660 --> 00:27:09,420
because it was always like that before. I mean, most of the history

433
00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:13,180
of wine was organic at least, right? Yeah.

434
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:16,940
I mean, back in the days, you didn't have a lot of chemicals. You

435
00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:20,460
were doing what you had, and what you had was copper and sulfur, like the

436
00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:24,140
organic. And for sure, the hardest part is when

437
00:27:24,140 --> 00:27:27,140
you just don't use chemicals, is to

438
00:27:27,780 --> 00:27:31,050
have a production. Because in some area, especially in the very

439
00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:34,690
rainy wine region, if you don't treat,

440
00:27:35,330 --> 00:27:38,850
it's very. You can lose all your crop. Imagine

441
00:27:39,410 --> 00:27:43,210
if it's very hard only to obtain crop. Imagine how hard it is

442
00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:46,370
to obtain very good crop to have an outstanding wine.

443
00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:50,530
So for sure, being organic, it's very hard

444
00:27:50,770 --> 00:27:54,490
because you're sort of out of control, right? I mean, you

445
00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:56,690
have the control, but as those

446
00:27:58,810 --> 00:28:02,330
that's all copper and sulfur that you use to spray the vineyards

447
00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:05,290
just to protect them from the mildews powdery and down

448
00:28:05,290 --> 00:28:09,130
immediately if it rains, you're gonna lose them

449
00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:13,250
because they're a product that doesn't get inside the plant, but they just stay outside

450
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:17,010
the plant. So if it's very rainy season or very

451
00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:20,170
rainy vintage or very rainy growing area,

452
00:28:20,570 --> 00:28:24,290
then you need to spray. You need to spray a lot. So it can be

453
00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:27,930
very fragile. And I think the fragility is the most

454
00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:31,770
important aspect in wine that usually are not even considered,

455
00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:35,490
but the fragility of this production. Of course, in organic and

456
00:28:35,490 --> 00:28:39,210
biodynamic, it's even more. But also in general, we start working

457
00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:43,250
the 1st of January. So you go into the vineyard, you start the

458
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:46,690
pruning, and then the vine start to the bud

459
00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:50,010
burst. And then you start the growing season. You need to select

460
00:28:50,330 --> 00:28:54,050
each of select the production. You need

461
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:57,890
to taking care of the plants all the season. And

462
00:28:57,890 --> 00:29:01,610
then maybe just one day, you have some hail, you have some strong

463
00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:05,329
rain, you can lose everything. The fragility attached to

464
00:29:05,329 --> 00:29:09,090
these, it's very high. And it's even higher when you have organic

465
00:29:09,090 --> 00:29:12,330
and biodynamic production. I'll never forget we were in Bordeaux in

466
00:29:12,330 --> 00:29:15,950
2014, I think, or 15. And we

467
00:29:16,990 --> 00:29:20,190
were just. We left, we got on the plane, we flew. I forgot where we

468
00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:23,510
went. Oh, we went to Monaco. And right behind us was a

469
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:26,670
hailstorm. And I'll never forget the

470
00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:30,629
news. When we were in Monaco, you could see the

471
00:29:30,629 --> 00:29:34,270
path of the hailstorm

472
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:37,950
had just stripped the vines to nothing.

473
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:41,940
No leaves, no graves or nothing. Everything on the east and west

474
00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:45,700
side of the Vineyard perfectly fine. It was just a clear

475
00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:49,620
path. And I thought, wow, that's devastating to. And you're out of

476
00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:53,460
control. It is. In a few minutes, you're totally out of control. One of

477
00:29:53,460 --> 00:29:56,340
my master that I learned a lot

478
00:29:57,300 --> 00:30:01,060
say that our office has no roof. And it's true.

479
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:04,980
Our office is the vineyard and the vineyard has no roof. So if

480
00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:08,640
it has some frost, hail. Yeah, it's a good storm. You can

481
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480
lose everything. Yeah, but that's the magic about it, because if

482
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,080
you can produce this era, it would be next. Yeah, maybe. Production is very

483
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,920
low and that's very important to. To.

484
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,600
To tell it to the final consumers that expect the

485
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,440
same quality every year, the same lower price, if possible,

486
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,880
every year, and constant in production.

487
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,010
Is that a difficult balance?

488
00:30:35,010 --> 00:30:38,050
Where you want to create a brand out of

489
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:41,410
Cairosa that people

490
00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:45,890
seek because it. Because of its brand value, it has a story, it

491
00:30:45,890 --> 00:30:49,170
has a character that we. That we try to as well as

492
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:53,650
juxtapose, or at least against the idea that I'm

493
00:30:53,650 --> 00:30:56,530
only going to produce what that vineyard gives me.

494
00:30:57,170 --> 00:31:00,290
And that could be substantially different. Well, let's put it this way.

495
00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:06,500
I think he's the grandson of Ornalaya, that

496
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:09,620
they produce his wine in Patagonia. He makes his Pinot Noir.

497
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:12,580
It's a sassy.

498
00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:19,100
His. His biodynamic Pinot Noir from Patagonia

499
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:22,900
is radically different from year to year because of what. How

500
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,470
he is completely natural. I mean natural. But

501
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:30,580
if we put a number on the labels and the number is the vintage,

502
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:34,220
that's it. Right. Each vintage is different. The wines should be

503
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:37,780
different. Yeah, because I agree some vintage are very hot and

504
00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:41,540
dry, some are the opposite, quite rainy. So it's very hard to

505
00:31:41,540 --> 00:31:45,300
produce the same quality or the same wine. Don't get me wrong, there's

506
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,700
not best or wrong vintage. If

507
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,540
we produce wine, it's only because the grapes are good and the wine is good.

508
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:55,660
So if we put it on the bottle, for sure it's outstanding.

509
00:31:56,450 --> 00:32:00,210
But the wines can be different because it's telling a different stories, which

510
00:32:00,210 --> 00:32:03,970
is a different vintage. So I suppose the brand

511
00:32:04,370 --> 00:32:07,330
recognition, not only the label and the bottle, but

512
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:12,049
how the winemaker blends what he's given or she's given.

513
00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:16,250
And you just said something that is so important that I try to say it,

514
00:32:16,250 --> 00:32:19,050
I say it a different way. But you said it a better, more elegant way,

515
00:32:19,050 --> 00:32:22,810
actually, which is there are no such thing. If the wine, like you said,

516
00:32:22,810 --> 00:32:25,870
is put in the bottle by an honest winery. Honest meaning not.

517
00:32:26,820 --> 00:32:30,180
Not cheating people, but honest in that they deliver

518
00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:34,740
a product that represents that time and that place,

519
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:38,820
that there are no bad vintages, there's only different vintages.

520
00:32:38,820 --> 00:32:41,940
100, right? Of course, there are some vintages

521
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,340
because, you know, the beauty of wine is there's not a picture.

522
00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:50,380
The wine is changing through years. So there are wines. Sometimes

523
00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:54,030
we seek the perfect balance. Some wines, some vintages,

524
00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:57,630
they have the perfect balance early. Some we need to wait a little bit

525
00:32:57,630 --> 00:33:01,310
more. You know, in Tuscany, everyone talks about 15

526
00:33:01,310 --> 00:33:04,950
and 16 vintage, which are outstanding, remarkable vintage,

527
00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:09,110
very hot and dry. So the wines are a bit radier to drink.

528
00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:13,150
So maybe the peak is a bit early drying out. You open and

529
00:33:13,150 --> 00:33:16,870
they are just outstanding. Some other vintages, a bit

530
00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:20,880
colder and rainier. Maybe they need a little bit more ear to find

531
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,720
that peak. But they're gonna find it, and when they're gonna find it, they're

532
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,480
gonna be outstanding. How many years your brother been making wine? Still making

533
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,320
wine, yeah. Now he's doing consultancy, so he's still in wine and

534
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,040
agronomy consultancy. How many years? Oh,

535
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,320
that's a good question. It should be around 15 years, something like that. How long

536
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,920
do you think it takes for a winemaker like your brother or anybody at

537
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,440
chateauguiscord, that. To have a grasp

538
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,120
for what that piece of land is doing? You know,

539
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,800
for sure, the more vintage you have in your background, the better.

540
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,880
But just because each one is different than to the other one. So every year

541
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,080
you learn something new, but you don't know if you're going to use it the

542
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,800
next one or not. That's the question. So the more time, the better, I will

543
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,520
say, because they were talking about. Because you only get, let's say,

544
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:12,800
it comes out of school and you're making wine, maybe you get 40 vintages under

545
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,860
your belt if you're only working in one atmosphere, one

546
00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:19,860
hemisphere. I mean, that doesn't seem like a lot,

547
00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:23,300
in my opinion, for a career, but that's what it is because it's such a

548
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:27,140
slow industry. Right. And I've heard

549
00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:31,660
proprietors say, you know, it's going to take 100 years. And so

550
00:34:31,660 --> 00:34:35,100
this is a legacy product, right, that we don't know what's going to happen. And

551
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,340
I. And the question really comes down to what you just said, which is

552
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:42,720
I wonder how many vintages it takes for. For

553
00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:44,920
a winemaker to have an understanding,

554
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,920
a small understanding of the differences in the weather

555
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,840
and the soil types and the things that are going on in their vineyard

556
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,240
that they could. And you said it also earlier, that you

557
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,120
could taste that grape before it's picked

558
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,600
and try to have an understanding of what it's going to be. Is it possible?

559
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,650
It is, but that's the hardest part. So only the. The

560
00:35:09,050 --> 00:35:12,890
master with a lot of experience can do that. But actually that's the

561
00:35:12,970 --> 00:35:16,730
base of the. Especially the Bordeaux, the Bordeaux way. In Italy,

562
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:20,570
we're a little bit. It's a little bit different than in France.

563
00:35:20,570 --> 00:35:24,329
But in Bordeaux, most of the decision are taken by only

564
00:35:24,329 --> 00:35:27,850
tasting. Tasting grapes, tasting the seeds to

565
00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:31,490
choose the perfect moment to pick the grapes. And then

566
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:35,050
after fermentation, they taste the wine and they

567
00:35:35,050 --> 00:35:38,410
decide how to blend it. And that's fascinating because

568
00:35:38,650 --> 00:35:42,050
when you taste those wines, and I had the chance to taste it, which is

569
00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:45,810
very interesting that you're tasting wines that just finished the malolactic

570
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:49,290
fermentation, which means they're still a little bit warm, sometimes a bit

571
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:52,890
fizzy with very high tannins. And imagine

572
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:56,650
tasting those wines by thinking that how they will

573
00:35:56,650 --> 00:36:00,490
be performed in five years, one in the market or 20 years.

574
00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:05,580
That's incredible. That's the art. I think that's the art of

575
00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:08,340
it. I tell people this once in a while.

576
00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:14,780
You could pick a grape in Bordeaux, Merlot, let's

577
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:18,340
say in a Sangiovese in Tuscany. And from a

578
00:36:18,340 --> 00:36:21,860
chemical metric standpoint, not chemical, but from a metric standpoint,

579
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:25,780
ph, acid, sugar content, have. They could be

580
00:36:25,780 --> 00:36:28,680
exactly the same. Yeah, it was very similar. But then you taste

581
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,720
tastes so different and that. That becomes the art of the blending and

582
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,320
the art of making the wine. What is. Is that

583
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,120
something when it comes to today's consumer, you're flying all over the

584
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,160
country, all over the world, probably showing people the

585
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,520
Cairosa, tell them the story.

586
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,640
What's the response like for the different generations? What

587
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:54,680
generations now are Gen Z, I guess are the ones that are drinking. They're. We're

588
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,500
already past the millennials who, who we gave up on. But

589
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:03,740
how they're responding to this. Well, it really depends. Of

590
00:37:03,740 --> 00:37:07,060
course, I get the chance to travel all over the world for

591
00:37:07,060 --> 00:37:10,660
Cairosa, and especially in Asia and us, which are

592
00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:14,580
our main market, of course, outside Italy and Europe, it

593
00:37:14,580 --> 00:37:17,300
really depends there of states of countries.

594
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:21,940
But yeah, in general, you see how different

595
00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:25,620
areas or different people see the wine in different ways.

596
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,240
But one thing is true that

597
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,840
if you have beauty in front of you, everyone can see it. That's

598
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,520
the good point. And that's the same for wine. That's a great

599
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,600
point because. And I believe this

600
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,360
wholeheartedly, whether. And I have good

601
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,000
friends now, that because of our relationship over the last 40, 50 years

602
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,680
have developed a palate for wine.

603
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Almost everybody can agree when you put a properly made wine in

604
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,880
front of them, there's something unique. And the other night we went to dinner,

605
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,680
and, you know, they're not. The wife is not necessarily

606
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,120
academically associated with wine, doesn't really care to hear the stories,

607
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,520
but she left that dinner saying, wow, thank you for the

608
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,640
wines. The wines were excellent. I brought a Crown Cru Burgundy and a. I sent

609
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,280
it to Chef Tu Gui score, actually. And that made me feel good

610
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,120
because she had no idea what she was drinking. She had no idea the pedigree.

611
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,280
Now she got good memory. But it was clear that the wines were

612
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,440
structured properly and made properly. And you don't have to like the flavors

613
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,560
necessarily of a good wine, but you can recognize

614
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,040
the structure and the quality of the winemaking, just like you can look at the

615
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,560
quality of a painting or a building. Same thing, right? And that's the beauty of

616
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,160
it. Yeah. And so that makes you feel really good when people recognize that part,

617
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,820
even though we have to know a lot more in order to understand

618
00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:54,020
that. But that's part of it. But, you know, I get

619
00:38:54,740 --> 00:38:58,580
to do the best part because I can touch and I can feel

620
00:38:58,980 --> 00:39:02,260
the final consumer. I can feel the smile. I can feel

621
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:05,540
the eyes where they see this beauty.

622
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:09,900
But from a winemaker in background, imagine all

623
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,700
the toughest part. So for me, it's also part of my role when I go

624
00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:17,230
back to Callerosa to share this beauty, also to the team

625
00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:19,390
that made it possible. I didn't understand that.

626
00:39:20,990 --> 00:39:24,430
What kind of questions do you get when you make your presentation?

627
00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:28,430
And first of all, when you're doing this, are you with consumers this trip, or

628
00:39:28,430 --> 00:39:31,750
are you with distributor reps that you're trying to keep? Usually I do a little

629
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:35,510
bit of mix. So there's the Wine Spectator event running,

630
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:39,350
so I was also there pouring the wines. And here you have a mix

631
00:39:39,350 --> 00:39:42,590
of everybody. So you have the final consumers, you have

632
00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:46,590
restaurants, you have sommeliers, you have distributor importers.

633
00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:50,570
And then I'm just going around with my different distributors, depending

634
00:39:50,570 --> 00:39:53,690
on the state, where usually we meet only with

635
00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:57,970
restaurants and sommelier and hotels. So at the consumer event or the

636
00:39:57,970 --> 00:40:00,930
type of event that you did, the wine spectators in San Diego, right? It was

637
00:40:00,930 --> 00:40:04,770
San Diego. And then I'll do Tampa next week. And what kind of questions are

638
00:40:04,770 --> 00:40:08,570
people asking you? But, you know, you have every kind of question.

639
00:40:08,730 --> 00:40:12,170
Some people don't really know Italy, so they want to understand

640
00:40:12,570 --> 00:40:16,090
where exactly in Italy we are located. Some people

641
00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:20,000
want to know the variety. Some people, usually the first

642
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,520
thing they do is they check the alcohol content before even

643
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,040
listening to the stories. And some older people

644
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,280
just don't say anything, want to listen to stories, and then they post questions.

645
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,040
So in those kind of events, you really see every possible

646
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,240
scenario, but you have to be rather flexible, you

647
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:43,080
know? Yeah. You know, sometimes people don't really want to understand the

648
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,800
technical part, but they want a little bit more, the emotional

649
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,420
part. They want to be transported in Tuscany, in the

650
00:40:50,420 --> 00:40:53,900
hills. They want to imagine themselves being there

651
00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:58,140
with this glass of wine. Some other people are really interested on the

652
00:40:58,140 --> 00:41:01,740
technical, the percentage of the blend, the aging

653
00:41:02,060 --> 00:41:05,260
and type of soils, etc. Do you have

654
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:08,620
hospitality in Tuscany? Yeah, we do. It's very important.

655
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:12,780
Of course, we are in a small city, so there's not much

656
00:41:12,780 --> 00:41:15,980
tourism, just walking in. But we're doing

657
00:41:15,980 --> 00:41:19,420
hospitality. We're investing on that. We're building a small

658
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:23,600
warehouse with hospitality area just down the

659
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,240
hill, so it's closer to the main street, so people can

660
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,960
stop by just for a quick tasting or maybe come and join

661
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,640
us in the winery for a longer tasting. Where's the podcast

662
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,400
host? Guest quarters. We didn't

663
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,800
plan it, but still we are working on it. We are building it. So maybe

664
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480
I can put a nice road to have a corner where we can do that.

665
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,980
It's always one of my questions. Well, no,

666
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:53,780
because it. One of the things that you

667
00:41:54,100 --> 00:41:57,940
probably see in Bordeaux, which was not hospitable. I

668
00:41:57,940 --> 00:42:01,060
don't mean they were not being friendly, but

669
00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:05,460
the hospitality side of wine trade in Bordeaux was not part of

670
00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:09,260
the equation even 20 years ago. Right. You couldn't walk into

671
00:42:09,260 --> 00:42:12,740
a tasting room and taste. And now you can. In many places,

672
00:42:13,140 --> 00:42:16,950
they prefer appointments. In fact, I'll never forget going to vin Expo in

673
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:20,110
1993. You know, you just didn't show up.

674
00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:24,030
And it would take, they would prefer weeks in advance to know that you're coming.

675
00:42:24,350 --> 00:42:28,030
That was just the nature of the beast. Along comes

676
00:42:28,030 --> 00:42:31,830
Napa. You know, the. The wine rooms are open,

677
00:42:31,830 --> 00:42:35,630
there's welcome visitors. A little bit different postco, but it's still that way.

678
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:39,630
But it seems like in Bordeaux, even in Santa Mill, they've created

679
00:42:40,190 --> 00:42:43,740
the hospitality side of for sure the last few years,

680
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:47,780
last decades. Every wine region in the world

681
00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:51,100
invests a lot in that. And for sure, Bordeaux is a very good

682
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:54,900
example where everything changed. And now you can

683
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:58,620
visit almost every winery. They're investing a lot in hospitality.

684
00:42:58,780 --> 00:43:02,420
They're doing a lot with small group, big groups. And that's very

685
00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:06,180
important because we have Beautiful stories to share, beautiful wine to

686
00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:09,980
share. So the best way is just to open the doors to having people in

687
00:43:10,220 --> 00:43:14,040
and to share this amazing. Well, you know, tourism is up. You know,

688
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,760
obviously when I travel, I'd make a point of finding wineries to go visit

689
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,440
no matter where I'm at. Even in the Midwest of America, where you taste

690
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,880
terrible wines, which is interesting to me, because the Midwest of

691
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,360
Army of America was the heart of the wine business

692
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,440
before Prohibition and then afterwards,

693
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:38,480
by then, it had evolved to America, to California and et cetera.

694
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,480
And now it's coming back. There's a guy in Kansas who's growing

695
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,120
these bizarre American varietals that, I mean, they're really

696
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,720
interesting wines, to say the least. In Long island, in New York, all those

697
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,440
places are becoming important. Virginia, interesting parts of enology. But

698
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,320
enology, you know, tourism. Tourism of wine is

699
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,880
up all over the world. Well, that's a strong

700
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,640
trend, and for sure. And that's the strength of wine, right?

701
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:08,240
We mentioned it at the beginning. We were saying it's not just about

702
00:44:08,530 --> 00:44:12,370
the liquid, but it's about the experience behind it. And there's no better way

703
00:44:12,450 --> 00:44:16,170
to experience it. So to visit the wineries, which usually are

704
00:44:16,170 --> 00:44:20,010
in amazing areas, and to share a glass of

705
00:44:20,010 --> 00:44:23,610
wine, understand the wine. Because I believe that now people are more

706
00:44:23,610 --> 00:44:27,410
interested to see what's behind the production.

707
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:31,730
So being there, seeing the facilities, but mostly having

708
00:44:31,970 --> 00:44:35,730
different glass in front of you and understand the difference between each other.

709
00:44:37,070 --> 00:44:40,910
And most of people that say, I don't understand about wine, but

710
00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:44,430
when they have two different glasses in front of them, they will see the difference.

711
00:44:44,990 --> 00:44:48,750
And that's the best way to do it, is just sit and enjoy this

712
00:44:48,830 --> 00:44:50,990
experience. That's one of my favorite stories.

713
00:44:52,830 --> 00:44:56,670
I don't think my friend listens to the show anymore, but if he did, he's

714
00:44:56,670 --> 00:44:59,990
heard it. And we were in Napa years ago. We were at a winery called

715
00:44:59,990 --> 00:45:03,790
Clopigas, and we had two Cabernets in front of us at the moment.

716
00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:07,340
One was two different variety, two different vineyards. Or one of them might have been

717
00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:10,980
a blend of all their vineyards, and one might have been vineyard designate, both

718
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:14,700
2014s. And he was sort of commenting on that.

719
00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:18,500
You. And I would say I. I smell herbs or I smell the soil,

720
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,820
you know, whatever we detect on a glass of wine. And he looked at me

721
00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:24,700
because I think that's, you know, I think you're full of bs. You know, it's

722
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:27,740
wrong. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you guys just say this

723
00:45:27,740 --> 00:45:31,560
stuff, and it doesn't mean anything. I said, well, you have two Cabernets in

724
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,280
front of you right now, and they're both the same vintage or the same year,

725
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,280
but they're different wines. Do they taste different to you? He said, yes.

726
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,920
I go, you're on your way. Whether you can define or not is

727
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,720
not the issue, but that's the beauty of

728
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,280
what we're trying to portray. I've been working with the Armenian

729
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,960
wine trade a lot lately because of my heritage, and

730
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,060
they're trying to get global recognition. They were at

731
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:01,860
Vin Wine Paris, and I

732
00:46:01,940 --> 00:46:05,660
did it. I actually have four shows coming out this. This week on. On

733
00:46:05,660 --> 00:46:09,020
the trade. And it's so

734
00:46:09,020 --> 00:46:12,780
difficult. I mean, can you imagine? Here you are, you've got an

735
00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:16,340
established region, an established winery and established grapes,

736
00:46:16,340 --> 00:46:19,780
established path to market

737
00:46:20,020 --> 00:46:23,380
wine. But here's a country that no one has really heard of the country,

738
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,360
let alone know they have wine. And then varietals you can't

739
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,160
even pronounce right, trying to get traction in

740
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,920
the world of wine. Imagine the difficulty you. It would

741
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,560
be huge. Yeah. The headwinds you have doing this every day, trying to get it

742
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,240
done. But it's. And therein lies

743
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:45,840
the reason that people love this industry.

744
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,720
It takes. Or the people that survive this industry. It takes

745
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:52,980
so much passion and so much energy and of course,

746
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,820
for these headwinds to get through these headwinds. Yeah, it takes

747
00:46:56,820 --> 00:47:00,620
energy, it takes passion, and it takes time. Yeah, it takes time.

748
00:47:00,620 --> 00:47:04,460
So nowadays, of course, everybody knows Bordeaux. Most of

749
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:07,940
people knows Tuscany, but I've been to

750
00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:11,540
places where people don't really know where Tuscany is or where

751
00:47:11,540 --> 00:47:14,900
Tuscany is. But they all know Bordeaux. They all know

752
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:18,180
Burgundy, of course, takes time. If you think about

753
00:47:18,420 --> 00:47:22,260
Giscourt is producing wine for more than 450 years

754
00:47:22,660 --> 00:47:26,100
in the same place, the same vineyard. That's amazing. It's 400

755
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:29,780
plus 50 years talking about that wine, producing, that,

756
00:47:29,780 --> 00:47:33,580
sending wine. It takes about time. Callerosa is

757
00:47:33,580 --> 00:47:37,060
still a young project, but of course, now we are in a strong region

758
00:47:37,620 --> 00:47:41,260
and we are working great job. And of course, G School is helping

759
00:47:41,260 --> 00:47:44,430
out us in the world to be known,

760
00:47:44,910 --> 00:47:47,950
but it takes time. You know what I love about

761
00:47:48,510 --> 00:47:52,350
the European model of this appellation, Control, et cetera.

762
00:47:53,390 --> 00:47:57,150
In Italy in particular, as well as France, you don't just

763
00:47:57,150 --> 00:48:00,710
protect the grapes, the varieties, the land, the area, the

764
00:48:00,710 --> 00:48:04,470
structure. And when you talk about France and Italy, there's such two different,

765
00:48:04,470 --> 00:48:07,710
dynamically different cultures, but they have the same respect

766
00:48:08,850 --> 00:48:12,610
for the land, the appellation. And so you have your. Your cured

767
00:48:12,610 --> 00:48:15,810
Meat by region. You have your pastas by region.

768
00:48:16,130 --> 00:48:19,930
They're protected to the extent of your balsamic vinegar in

769
00:48:19,930 --> 00:48:23,730
Modena. All those things keep

770
00:48:23,730 --> 00:48:27,570
an identity. America doesn't have that. We have

771
00:48:27,570 --> 00:48:30,890
a region called Napa. You have Sonoma, that you can make that definite. But we

772
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:34,610
don't have regional characteristics that are defended by the government

773
00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:38,130
or defended by the society. And I. I

774
00:48:38,130 --> 00:48:41,650
envy that. And a lot of people think that's a curse. It's so important,

775
00:48:41,810 --> 00:48:45,570
especially in Italy. We have so much complexity.

776
00:48:45,570 --> 00:48:49,170
Yeah. In everything, of course, wine, but then can be. Olive

777
00:48:49,170 --> 00:48:53,010
oil, can be about plants in general. Then you have cultural, then you

778
00:48:53,010 --> 00:48:56,370
have food, then you have pasta, then you have everything. So when you have such

779
00:48:56,370 --> 00:49:00,010
complexity, it's so important to protect it. Yeah. Do you think

780
00:49:00,010 --> 00:49:03,690
the. This might be a loaded question.

781
00:49:03,690 --> 00:49:07,520
The. The average Italian that lives in

782
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,360
a little village makes their foods of the village

783
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,000
and drinks the wines. Drinks the wine they make in the basement, probably, right?

784
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,640
Yeah. Mostly they will do that. They will be

785
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,280
producing the wine or doing the wine in the basement. In

786
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,880
the area is still pretty common. I mean, I grew up with my father. We

787
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,680
are from Milan, the north, so there's not much wine in our

788
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,160
area. But I grew up with my father

789
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,920
buying the damigiana, which in French is

790
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,680
damijian, which is a big bottle of 50 or

791
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,240
like 10 gallons, more or less. And you buy it, like

792
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,560
bulk, and then you take it home and you bottle it with friends.

793
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:51,360
Wow. So culturally, this is quite normal everywhere in Italy.

794
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,800
And if you're in an area where you can grow a little bit and produce

795
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,350
wine, then you do your own wine, your home.

796
00:49:58,750 --> 00:50:02,190
So in the south of Italy, it's quite normal to have your garden,

797
00:50:02,350 --> 00:50:05,950
your grapes, and you produce your own wine. I think that's so.

798
00:50:07,310 --> 00:50:10,990
And I think the Americans missed that. They missed that. Well, actually, in LA,

799
00:50:11,310 --> 00:50:14,910
when. When wine came to LA in the 1700s, late 1700s,

800
00:50:15,550 --> 00:50:19,350
you could go down to the local guy and get your demi

801
00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:22,670
john filled with. With wine and bring it home. You could do that. You can't

802
00:50:22,670 --> 00:50:25,540
do it anymore. It's against the law to do that, which is kind of a

803
00:50:26,010 --> 00:50:29,330
ridiculous. Right. And my father grew up in

804
00:50:29,330 --> 00:50:33,130
Cairo, and his father would send him down the road.

805
00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:37,850
There was the pharmacy, which is what he was by trade, eventually.

806
00:50:38,090 --> 00:50:41,530
And in the pharmacy were the sweet and the dry

807
00:50:41,770 --> 00:50:45,610
vats, and he would get a liter of each and bring

808
00:50:45,610 --> 00:50:48,570
them home. My grandfather would blend them and.

809
00:50:49,050 --> 00:50:52,890
Wow. Does that speak of culture. And here you're talking about a little village in

810
00:50:52,890 --> 00:50:56,610
Italy. Sure. It happened in France, even happened in America for a long

811
00:50:56,610 --> 00:51:00,450
time. How ingrained in the humanity

812
00:51:00,850 --> 00:51:04,130
is really is wine. And when you think about those kinds of

813
00:51:04,130 --> 00:51:07,890
experiences, we're done, actually,

814
00:51:08,050 --> 00:51:10,370
we're out of time. It was hard to believe. But I have to tell you

815
00:51:10,370 --> 00:51:12,610
a story because I just thought of this when we were talking. One of my

816
00:51:12,610 --> 00:51:16,090
shows that just came out, we were in Armenia. We're over by the

817
00:51:16,090 --> 00:51:19,800
Iranian border, and they say the Iranians come.

818
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,600
In fact, during all this war stuff, they had

819
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,960
stationed a couple of news reporters in that village in

820
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,760
Armenia because they expected the Iranian people to

821
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,840
come back to Armenia to get out of the war zone and come to Armenia.

822
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,520
And there are kiosks on the side of the road

823
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,800
with women and men selling their homemade wines in Coca

824
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,250
Cola plastic bottles. And so

825
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:49,570
as part of one of these shows, the director goes, let's go

826
00:51:49,810 --> 00:51:53,650
taste some wine. I go, look, I'm not tasting that. I mean, are you kidding?

827
00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:58,050
We ran across the street and there's this woman's beautiful,

828
00:51:58,050 --> 00:52:01,770
beautiful grape clusters. I mean, unbelievable. And the grape there in Armenia is called

829
00:52:01,770 --> 00:52:05,090
Adeni and the main snake grape.

830
00:52:05,810 --> 00:52:08,050
And she poured me this glass of wine and I'm like,

831
00:52:09,490 --> 00:52:13,210
this is. This is completely palatable, you know.

832
00:52:13,290 --> 00:52:16,930
And then she says, it was a 2 liter thing. I go, that's. I don't.

833
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:19,490
I wanted to buy some from her because she took care of us, but I

834
00:52:19,490 --> 00:52:23,250
didn't want to buy 2 liters. So she says, no problem in

835
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:26,530
Armenian. I don't speak Armenian. She takes a funnel and puts it in a 1

836
00:52:26,530 --> 00:52:29,850
liter jar, just pours in there.

837
00:52:31,050 --> 00:52:34,570
I go, this is, this is really living, you know, wine. Right.

838
00:52:34,570 --> 00:52:38,380
It's so ingrained in their culture and probably the villages

839
00:52:38,380 --> 00:52:42,220
of Italy, like that is the same. It's really an honor

840
00:52:42,220 --> 00:52:45,740
to be part of the industry, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. But, you

841
00:52:45,740 --> 00:52:49,380
know, it's not just about. It's part of the life, part of the culture.

842
00:52:49,860 --> 00:52:53,659
It's part of our quotidianity. I wish

843
00:52:53,659 --> 00:52:57,340
you all the luck in the world teaching people this as you travel the

844
00:52:57,340 --> 00:53:01,140
country, the worlds, and having that one on one conversation.

845
00:53:02,340 --> 00:53:05,980
They're all going to remember having a conversation with Ivo at the Wine Spectator

846
00:53:05,980 --> 00:53:09,710
thing. We tasted this biodynamic wine called Kairosha, and

847
00:53:09,710 --> 00:53:13,030
that's how it works. That's my mission. I'll do my best.

848
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:14,550
Cheers. Thank you.