Behind the Bottle: The Human Stories and Craft of Tuscan Winemaking with Ivo Assanelli

0:00 You see how different areas or different people see the wine in different ways. But one thing is true, that if you have beauty in front of you, everyone can see it. And that's the same for wine. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kay. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Ivo Asinelli. Did I get it right? Yeah, it's perfect. He is a sales manager for Cairosa out of Tuscany, which has got an incredible history. We'll talk about that in just a second. But welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for having me here. It's fun to come to la, do some tasting, talk to some folks. Yeah, I mean, you were in San Diego for a little bit. I did. And then I'm heading a little bit to Florida. Just finishing my second trip here in the U.S.

0:54 for us, it's a big market, so it's important to be here and to open some bottles and to share with great people. You know what, is that what it takes these days? Like you got to get out there, you're all the way from Italy and Tuscany, the great region of Tuscany, to get out, come to America and just open bottles and let people know what you guys are doing. Is that what it takes? Yeah, I guess that's the only, the only way, especially in such a difficult situation because I think we are in quite difficult condition right now. The market, the geopolitics round the wine, like the consumer is slowing down a little bit consumption. So it's very important to be out there to open bottles, especially for us, which we are still a small estate. So the only way to, to let us know is just to go around to carry those wines, to open the bottles and to share it with great people. So I wonder if that's. But is that really different? I mean, I suppose if the times were better and we talk about, for the, for the listeners or the watchers of the show, when we say the times are better, there has been a decrease in consumption. We've talked about that. There's a prohibition movement, sort of neo prohibition. There's a low alcohol, those things are going on.

2:06 It's not a huge amount of pressure in this fact that it's I think single digit reduction in consumption. But I think it's a generational thing where like people like my age who do drink, you know, consume, I won't say I drink a lot, let's just say I consume. I think it's a mix of things for sure. It's generational for sure is also some other drinks are coming more in the young generation, of course, but I guess we need to. I guess also back in the days, I don't know at what age you start drinking wine, but usually you don't start in very young stage, but a little bit, yeah, especially also abroad. So I don't really think it's too much the young generation which are not approaching wine. The main thing is the way they approach wine the first few times, because sometimes they approach wine as alcohol, but wine is totally different. It's not a beverage. And that's the approach we all the system and all the wine industry is trying to point out. And that's why it's so important to move and going around open bottles to share the beauty behind it. It's not a beverage, it's not alcohol. It's just amazing liquid that carries stories, people in place. So that's why it's so important. And I agree with that completely. And that's why the original question was sort of like the fact that you're out here now really shouldn't change and won't change in the future. Because I think the wine industry, forever and a day,

3:38 forever, we people who do this every day want to share that with people that don't do it every day to get the feeling that we get the understand what we understand. You don't have to understand wine, you don't have to study it. But eventually I think the human soul realizes that this product is not alcohol. It's a story 100% in a bottle, it's a story behind it. And of course it's about people who make it, but it's also about places. And of course it's about time because it's about the vintage. So of course the beauty and the strength about this liquidity, it's all this powerful connection. And the only way is to go to the emotional and to. To share these stories and these beautiful things. I was trying to think of any other product that I can't do it.

4:30 You know, music would be another sort of telltale sign of culture because it does represent time based on the kind of music it is. It represents a culture because of the style of music it is. But there's no product you consume as a human, as you consume. I don't think so. But maybe if you, if you want to look at in a broader way, like hearts at the end, it can be a period, can be cultural, can be about the artist as itself. And you don't, you don't have to be an expert in art to get involved emotionally with art. That's true. And that's the beauty of wine. So some people know a lot about it, some people doesn't. But. But they all get emotional. That's a great point. And that's the strength about this. That's a good word. The emotional connection. I'm reading a book right now which people think I'm like, what are you talking about?

5:23 Gertrude Stein, the famous sort of wine. Not wine, but book and painting critic in France back in the day. This is the 20s, and her partner was Alice B. Toklas and she wrote this. She. They wrote a lot of books. But when you said art. And now that I'm reading this story about Matisse and Picasso and Gauguin and all these people that would come into her apartment, just show up for dinner, for a drink, it was an open invitation in her apartment in Paris to come chat. And when you hear those stories about what that background was like and what they struggled with in those days to become famous, you realize there's so much more to that painting, just like a bottle of wine, than what meets the eye. And when you understand it, the appreciation grows. 100. And I'm sure when you understand all this background behind this, the painting speak even more, even louder, even more. Deepen. They connect to even more. And the wine is the same. Wine is the same way.

6:33 Well, this is the part that bothers me a little bit about contemporary thought process. And you probably follow LinkedIn and all the social networking. I just wrote a little article about that because you have to do those things. People are trying to find ways to fix this issue through social networking metrics, through packaging, through potential style differences and sugar to the wine, whatever, grape, sugar. And I just don't think that stuff plays out. I mean, it plays out in a short term, but I don't see how putting wine in a pouch, you know that a kid that a child would use for applesauce fixes or changes the problem. It just, it doesn't address the real value of a glass of wine. It just comes up with some kind of 100%. And that's more towards wine as a beverage. So that's more the beverage side of wine, which doesn't stand for all the wines. And I think you have these two main categories were wine as a beverage, the wine you used to cook, the wine you use just to get a little bit tipsy. And then there's wine that you share just to get involved with the story. And behind for sure. I had a football, sorry cross country coach in high school that his thesis as a physical ed teacher was that you couldn't get drunk on a

8:04 bottle of wine. And he tried to calculate it based on the. Because I tell people this all the time. In fact, I had a friend just thanked me for this conversation. 750 milliliters, which is 25 ounces or so. And if it's only 13 and a half percent alcohol, that's like 3 ounces for the whole bottle. Yeah, right. And if you have one martini at a bar, that's, you know, usually four to six ounces. So you've got to consume. He could drink the whole bottle of wine and not. We're not condoning that, of course. So when you're talking about the background, the history of wine and the story in the bottle, and I completely agree with it. We were just talking about Chateau Guiscor, which. So tell me the relationship. Chateau Guiscort, being a famed chateau in the left bank of Bordeaux, owns entirely Cairosa. Yeah, actually everything start in the early 2000 where Eric Albada Jekesma, this Dutch empreneur that acquired Chateau GI's Kure in 1995 and a few years later fell in love with this winery, Calla Rossa in the coast of Tuscany. The winery was already there, was just at the beginning was have been built and planted few hectares. Erica Reich fell in love with the area and decided to acquire it. And of course, taking all the background from Chateau Giscourt, from the Margaux appellation and to develop this project even more so he plants a little bit more vineyard. Now we are at 39 hectares in three different hills all around the coast

9:37 of Tuscany. We're in a small town called Tuscany. You're talking about due west of like Florence? Well, yeah, actually we are in between Bulgaria and Livorno. You know, if you've ever been in the area. But it's just a beautiful area because you have the small coast where you have Bulgari, for instance, and then you have all the hills that surround this area. And Callerosa is right on top of those hills just in front of the coast. You have this amazing outstanding view on Elba island just in front and a little bit farther, coarse island, which is the big French island. I am fascinated by wines from islands like that, like Corsico, Sardinia.

10:22 There's something about them. So when we talk about the coast. So you're talking about maybe that's about what? 80. 80 acres. California you know, American style. 39 hectares? Yeah. Should be around 80, which is substantial amount of. Of land in Bulgari being due south. Is that what it is? A little bit souther, yeah. Okay, so Bulgari being the home of Ora and some of the great super Tuscans, is that. Does that idea travel north, too, so that we're growing Cabernet, Merlot, Syrah, stuff like that? For sure. We have those varieties, those four varieties that we usually find in Bordeaux and of course, in Bulgari. The idea was a little bit farther than that. It was not to producing a Marco wine in Tuscany. The idea was to express the most and the best out of this complexity. So the first thing they did, Eric, with all the technical team, they start to analyze all the soils around the area and to see also the microclimatic condition of those parcels. And they finally realized that the soils were changing diverse. They're changing very quickly in few meters, like in Bordeaux. That's like Bordeaux and Burgundy. So what he said was, like, perfect. We are going to do micro parcel. And out of this small parcel, we're going to ferment everything separate. That's why we end up in 39 hectares, but 59 parcel. Each parcel produces at least a wine. Those are small parcels,

11:55 very tiny parcel. And the idea is like a chef in a restaurant, he does a lot of small preparation to then blend everything in. That's the very same thing. So we produce in each parcel, we ferment separately. And then the final act, maybe the most artistic one, where we have technical team of Chateau Giscourt, technical team of Calliarosa, sitting at the same table where we do the blending. There's so many thoughts. I'm having trouble organizing them right now, but because chateauguiscore, being a famed child, was a fourth growth or fifth growth. It's a third growth, actually. Third growth, you know, brings with a lot of history, a lot of. Of blending technology. Right.

12:35 We're not talking about Burgundy, where there's only one grape. We're talking about five potential grapes in Bordeaux. And then you. You bring that idea to Tuscany, where you've got these little micro plots, which is really small, you know, a hectare, a little more than a hectare, is the idea then, to try and produce the best representation of that soil and that terroir and what's going on in each parcel. Yeah, the idea is to. If I understand the soils, I understand what fit best. That's why they plant multiple varieties. We don't only grow the four varieties of Bordeaux. Or that we find also in Bulgaria. We grow 10 grape varieties, four white and six red varieties. Varieties that usually they don't really fit together. Of course we have the four of Bordeaux, Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Petit Verdot. But we also have Grenache and Syrah and of course Sangiovese. Wow, how interesting. It's very hard to find those varieties all together, especially on the coast where it's hard to find Sangiovese itself, even though it's the main variety, the king variety of Tuscany. What was growing there before he bought it?

13:46 Well, actually since the beginning it was multiple varieties. So when he arrived, he used a little bit the know how of Chiskur, just to analyze even deeper, to be even more precise on defining parcel and on choosing the variety. The beginning was a little bit more. Was also older variety. So they focus only in the. The best fit for the microclimatic condition and for the plot. So here's, here's a personal question. Then you spend more time in Tuscany or more time in Bordeaux? Well, actually no, because I just got there and Eric passed away a few years ago, so I never had the chance to meet him. Now we have the three brothers. Two brothers and a sister, and Valerie and Dennis and Derek, who takes care of both estate, which they exchange each other. So at least a few days a year, they are all coming, enjoying the sun. Wine family before that. Well, actually everything start with Eric in 95. So interesting what, what happened before that? Were they a businessman? Were they? Yeah, just businessman.

14:54 And then it was, it fell in love with wine and he decided to start with Jiscour. And if you think he revolutionized Jiscour a lot from the technical team, the first thing he did, it was a huge reinforcement on the vineyard. So he focus like he did in Calerosa, by improving each of the step from the very beginning through the very end. And that's, it's where we got Giscourt being an iconic. It's iconic. I have a very, I have an affinity towards Giscourt just because we talked about my relationship with Veronique Sanders Van Beek, the wife of Monsieur Bendique who runs Giscore. But not only that, when we were, when I was in Wine Paris, we talked about this a little bit. I'll talk about it again. It was like the last hour or two of the show and they had a bottle of Giscore that they said take this with you. Which I enjoyed that night with my wife in our hotel. Room. And so, and this is the part about wine being experiential that's so important for people to understand and for you and I to discuss is that I'll remember that wine forever for that little gesture, besides the fact the wine's level of quality is very high and the value is very high. Actually, in my opinion, just as little gestures that happen in our lives, it could be a dinner, it could be a sommelier who comes to the table and make a recommendation for a kairosa wine, whatever, but I'll remember that forever. And

16:26 in this crowded world of wine, this is the point I wanted to make. Earlier at Wine Paris, there were 6,000 booths and I'm walking miles to get through them, you know, and I thought to myself, every one of these wineries here is vying looking for the same thing. Exposure to the client, whether a restaurant or a wine shop or, you know, distribution, all that. And I go, what other? What other show in the world has exactly the same product, maybe slightly different from region to region or grape to grape, but effectively vying for that same shelf? Spot that shelf right there. The shelf of my dad's wine shop at the days.

17:07 It's a very difficult trek and a very difficult business, but it still attracts people that own chatgis like, I've done my business, I want to be in the wine trade. What is this romantic goal by people? This is a theoretical question. I'm not, you know, what is it? I think what I think is that the beauty of wine, the beauty of this business is passion, like you say. And there's many different business. And I had the opportunity to work mostly in this wine business. But when you see I take care of the sales, it's not just about selling is about sharing, it's about connecting.

17:54 And human value is the most important thing. But mostly just simply because we all love wine. Yeah. So we are first wine lover and then we work in the wine business. But being everybody so in love with this liquid makes everything so much how it work, you know. But you have to do it. How did you get started in it? Well, it's funny because I started in Italy. You can choose different high school and here you can change classes, but in Italy actually you choose the high school, which are very specific on topic. And I did the one of agriculture and ecology. So back then I was already started to study a little bit viticultural and ology, agroforestry, etc. And then I fell in love with the chemistry of wine. How everything can change through the Period of wine and evolution. And at the same time, my brother graduate from university and become a winemaker.

18:52 So he found his first job in Tuscany and I still remember visiting him. Those amazing hill near Monte. Beautiful hills. He was always outside on the outdoors in the vineyard, tasting grapes, understanding the future, how those grapes will taste in the battle in few years. And that fascinated me so much. Montalcino is beautiful too. It is beautiful area. But what's nice about wine, that every wine region is just an amazing area. And if you think about it, it's hard to think about wine region which is not gorgeous. No, it's true. That's truly a wine region that's trying to develop itself as a unique place, to be a unique terroir, a unique. And that's why it's so fun to travel the world to do this. It's not a day goes by even now that I'm not selling wine anymore, but having conversations like this one that I don't thank my father for asking me to come join him in his business. When he started that wine shop, I worked in for years, but I left. I went to corporate America and I went to a little small software company. And then he called and said, you know, I'm going to sell the company. You may want to come look at it before I sell it. And how do you. You know, I can't turn down my father at that point. And now I thank him. He was. Passed away a couple years ago, but every day for. For getting me involved, for it took. I don't know about you, so you. You're talking about university, seeing your brother go through the career. I sold

20:25 wine probably for 10 years direct to the consumer before I realized what was happening here, what I was doing for people. I was just business for me for 10 years. I did it for 35 years, but for 10 years I just was going through the motions of business. Well, in my size, it's a bit different because now I take care of the sales of Cairosa. But everything, it's just few years I'm in this, in the sales, what I like to say, the dark side of the business, the sales. You don't say that because actually I started as well. I took the path of my brother and I said as a winemaker. So I did my experience around the world, but mostly in Italy in the production side. And then one day I received the opportunity to take care of the sales of a winery. And I was young and I was like, okay, I should try it and see what happened. And then I Move in. And at the end, what I realized after a few years in sales, I'm not a salesman. My job is to be a salesman. And it's a slightly difference because I cannot sell everything. I cannot sell this book. I cannot sell beers, I cannot sell any other things. I can sell wine. Storyteller. Really? That's it. I can sell wine because I love it. Yeah. I deeply love what's behind it.

21:45 And I just tell stories and they buy. You know, it's interesting because I. I work for the largest sales organization in America at the time, in the 80s, called Xerox copiers. And the number one thing that was always told to me by the experienced guys was if you don't have a passion for this, what you're doing, if you don't truly believe in your product, and depending on whether you're solving a custom business problem or whether you're an emotional problem or emotional issue with wine, you can't do it. Like, you've got to be connected. And certainly connecting the wine a lot easier than connecting the copiers. But, you know, you have to believe in what you're doing and you have to believe that the consumer is going to benefit from you making this presentation or having these conversations. You see it every day though, right? Every single day. Yeah. So let's go. Let's go. Back when I. When I was working that shop, you know, this is the 70s, you know, the Border Lays came up with copper sulfite, like in the 40s.

22:47 And so pre, really pre World War II, probably most vineyards were organic, indoor biodynamic, at least. Organic, Right. Rudolf Steiner's book wasn't. It was built in the twenties, I think. Right. The biodynamic movement. But I find this really interesting. Was it biodynamic when they bought it? Well, actually, Cairosa, yes. Since the very beginning, it was already perceived with the philosophy on organic and biodynamic. And of course the certification takes a little more years to get. So we are officially certified from 2005 with the first vineyards planted in 1998.

23:30 But the idea of biodynamic and organic, it was not to follow this philosophy only from the agricultural practice, but also for the whole system and what they are doing in G school as well. Even though they are not certified, but they are following and they are really taking seriously what's not just what we do above the soil on the vineyard can be organic with spraying, with what we really use, but mostly is to maintain the ecosystem alive from the soils, but also from the park. I don't know if you visit Giskour, but the beautiful aspect of Giskour is this huge park and all the vineyards just around. So you have more than 100 hectares of park and 95 hectares of vineyards just around. They're like hugging this park. You know, there's not much altitude in Margaux, just 20, 15 meters.

24:28 So you need that park because it's just like helping with the temperature, especially by night. And that decrease of temperature by day and night keeps the grapes very healthy, but mostly keeps the aromas there and a beautiful freshness and elegance. Well, in Callerosa is a bit the opposite, because we are quite in altitude. So for us, it's the excursion that give a lot of freshness by night. But the vineyards are quite small and the woods is all around. So it's about balance and the whole ecosystem, not just about what we are doing. Sorry to interrupt you. Is there a marine influence in Tuscany? Coming off the ocean? It's very important.

25:11 It's very windy, that area, so we have a lot of wine meal all around because it's very windy day and night. Of course, you have this saltiness as well in the wines. It came from the maritime influence as well as the soil, which are very rich and diverse. And that's the beauty of this area. I love that. Maybe that's the reason I'm such a fan of Sardinia, Sicily, Corsica. The Mediterranean influence. Right. It's that Mediterranean salt thing, particularly in the whites, that there's that just salinity to it. Just so fake, but you can taste it. Well, here's my thought process on most of this, at least on a sustainable side of things, but certainly organic.

25:55 I find it interesting that the human. The human race who butchered, and particularly in America, butchered all the farms and, you know, basically choked them off under the soil from producing interesting. In foods that are healthy and come from that part of land, they screw it up. And now they applaud themselves and pat themselves on the back for going back to what was always like, for instance, in Burgundy, the monks had no pesticides or herbicides or insecticides. It was always organic. And the first wines that were coming through here at the Wine of the Month club, let's say 20 years ago, that were organic and biodynamic tasted like horse manure.

26:44 Because they didn't. They didn't understand that actually the soil, on its own, improperly managed, could handle this. So they didn't know what that meant. And so when they stopped using pesticides and herbicides, et cetera, they got this stuff. And it was so hard to drink. I mean, it really was not very good. And I always thought that was strange because it was always like that before. I mean, most of the history of wine was organic at least, right? Yeah. I mean, back in the days, you didn't have a lot of chemicals. You were doing what you had, and what you had was copper and sulfur, like the organic. And for sure, the hardest part is when you just don't use chemicals, is to have a production. Because in some area, especially in the very rainy wine region, if you don't treat, it's very. You can lose all your crop. Imagine if it's very hard only to obtain crop. Imagine how hard it is to obtain very good crop to have an outstanding wine.

27:46 So for sure, being organic, it's very hard because you're sort of out of control, right? I mean, you have the control, but as those that's all copper and sulfur that you use to spray the vineyards just to protect them from the mildews powdery and down immediately if it rains, you're gonna lose them because they're a product that doesn't get inside the plant, but they just stay outside the plant. So if it's very rainy season or very rainy vintage or very rainy growing area, then you need to spray. You need to spray a lot. So it can be very fragile. And I think the fragility is the most important aspect in wine that usually are not even considered, but the fragility of this production. Of course, in organic and biodynamic, it's even more. But also in general, we start working the 1st of January. So you go into the vineyard, you start the pruning, and then the vine start to the bud burst. And then you start the growing season. You need to select each of select the production. You need to taking care of the plants all the season. And then maybe just one day, you have some hail, you have some strong rain, you can lose everything. The fragility attached to these, it's very high. And it's even higher when you have organic and biodynamic production. I'll never forget we were in Bordeaux in 2014, I think, or 15. And we

29:16 were just. We left, we got on the plane, we flew. I forgot where we went. Oh, we went to Monaco. And right behind us was a hailstorm. And I'll never forget the news. When we were in Monaco, you could see the path of the hailstorm had just stripped the vines to nothing. No leaves, no graves or nothing. Everything on the east and west side of the Vineyard perfectly fine. It was just a clear path. And I thought, wow, that's devastating to. And you're out of control. It is. In a few minutes, you're totally out of control. One of my master that I learned a lot say that our office has no roof. And it's true.

30:01 Our office is the vineyard and the vineyard has no roof. So if it has some frost, hail. Yeah, it's a good storm. You can lose everything. Yeah, but that's the magic about it, because if you can produce this era, it would be next. Yeah, maybe. Production is very low and that's very important to. To. To tell it to the final consumers that expect the same quality every year, the same lower price, if possible, every year, and constant in production. Is that a difficult balance? Where you want to create a brand out of Cairosa that people seek because it. Because of its brand value, it has a story, it has a character that we. That we try to as well as juxtapose, or at least against the idea that I'm only going to produce what that vineyard gives me.

30:57 And that could be substantially different. Well, let's put it this way. I think he's the grandson of Ornalaya, that they produce his wine in Patagonia. He makes his Pinot Noir. It's a sassy. His. His biodynamic Pinot Noir from Patagonia is radically different from year to year because of what. How he is completely natural. I mean natural. But if we put a number on the labels and the number is the vintage, that's it. Right. Each vintage is different. The wines should be different. Yeah, because I agree some vintage are very hot and dry, some are the opposite, quite rainy. So it's very hard to produce the same quality or the same wine. Don't get me wrong, there's not best or wrong vintage. If we produce wine, it's only because the grapes are good and the wine is good.

31:52 So if we put it on the bottle, for sure it's outstanding. But the wines can be different because it's telling a different stories, which is a different vintage. So I suppose the brand recognition, not only the label and the bottle, but how the winemaker blends what he's given or she's given. And you just said something that is so important that I try to say it, I say it a different way. But you said it a better, more elegant way, actually, which is there are no such thing. If the wine, like you said, is put in the bottle by an honest winery. Honest meaning not. Not cheating people, but honest in that they deliver a product that represents that time and that place, that there are no bad vintages, there's only different vintages.

32:38 100, right? Of course, there are some vintages because, you know, the beauty of wine is there's not a picture. The wine is changing through years. So there are wines. Sometimes we seek the perfect balance. Some wines, some vintages, they have the perfect balance early. Some we need to wait a little bit more. You know, in Tuscany, everyone talks about 15 and 16 vintage, which are outstanding, remarkable vintage, very hot and dry. So the wines are a bit radier to drink. So maybe the peak is a bit early drying out. You open and they are just outstanding. Some other vintages, a bit colder and rainier. Maybe they need a little bit more ear to find that peak. But they're gonna find it, and when they're gonna find it, they're gonna be outstanding. How many years your brother been making wine? Still making wine, yeah. Now he's doing consultancy, so he's still in wine and agronomy consultancy. How many years? Oh, that's a good question. It should be around 15 years, something like that. How long do you think it takes for a winemaker like your brother or anybody at chateauguiscord, that. To have a grasp for what that piece of land is doing? You know, for sure, the more vintage you have in your background, the better.

33:54 But just because each one is different than to the other one. So every year you learn something new, but you don't know if you're going to use it the next one or not. That's the question. So the more time, the better, I will say, because they were talking about. Because you only get, let's say, it comes out of school and you're making wine, maybe you get 40 vintages under your belt if you're only working in one atmosphere, one hemisphere. I mean, that doesn't seem like a lot, in my opinion, for a career, but that's what it is because it's such a slow industry. Right. And I've heard proprietors say, you know, it's going to take 100 years. And so this is a legacy product, right, that we don't know what's going to happen. And I. And the question really comes down to what you just said, which is I wonder how many vintages it takes for. For a winemaker to have an understanding, a small understanding of the differences in the weather and the soil types and the things that are going on in their vineyard that they could. And you said it also earlier, that you could taste that grape before it's picked and try to have an understanding of what it's going to be. Is it possible?

35:04 It is, but that's the hardest part. So only the. The master with a lot of experience can do that. But actually that's the base of the. Especially the Bordeaux, the Bordeaux way. In Italy, we're a little bit. It's a little bit different than in France. But in Bordeaux, most of the decision are taken by only tasting. Tasting grapes, tasting the seeds to choose the perfect moment to pick the grapes. And then after fermentation, they taste the wine and they decide how to blend it. And that's fascinating because when you taste those wines, and I had the chance to taste it, which is very interesting that you're tasting wines that just finished the malolactic fermentation, which means they're still a little bit warm, sometimes a bit fizzy with very high tannins. And imagine tasting those wines by thinking that how they will be performed in five years, one in the market or 20 years.

36:01 That's incredible. That's the art. I think that's the art of it. I tell people this once in a while. You could pick a grape in Bordeaux, Merlot, let's say in a Sangiovese in Tuscany. And from a chemical metric standpoint, not chemical, but from a metric standpoint, ph, acid, sugar content, have. They could be exactly the same. Yeah, it was very similar. But then you taste tastes so different and that. That becomes the art of the blending and the art of making the wine. What is. Is that something when it comes to today's consumer, you're flying all over the country, all over the world, probably showing people the Cairosa, tell them the story.

36:47 What's the response like for the different generations? What generations now are Gen Z, I guess are the ones that are drinking. They're. We're already past the millennials who, who we gave up on. But how they're responding to this. Well, it really depends. Of course, I get the chance to travel all over the world for Cairosa, and especially in Asia and us, which are our main market, of course, outside Italy and Europe, it really depends there of states of countries. But yeah, in general, you see how different areas or different people see the wine in different ways. But one thing is true that if you have beauty in front of you, everyone can see it. That's the good point. And that's the same for wine. That's a great point because. And I believe this wholeheartedly, whether. And I have good friends now, that because of our relationship over the last 40, 50 years have developed a palate for wine.

37:52 Almost everybody can agree when you put a properly made wine in front of them, there's something unique. And the other night we went to dinner, and, you know, they're not. The wife is not necessarily academically associated with wine, doesn't really care to hear the stories, but she left that dinner saying, wow, thank you for the wines. The wines were excellent. I brought a Crown Cru Burgundy and a. I sent it to Chef Tu Gui score, actually. And that made me feel good because she had no idea what she was drinking. She had no idea the pedigree. Now she got good memory. But it was clear that the wines were structured properly and made properly. And you don't have to like the flavors necessarily of a good wine, but you can recognize the structure and the quality of the winemaking, just like you can look at the quality of a painting or a building. Same thing, right? And that's the beauty of it. Yeah. And so that makes you feel really good when people recognize that part, even though we have to know a lot more in order to understand that. But that's part of it. But, you know, I get to do the best part because I can touch and I can feel the final consumer. I can feel the smile. I can feel the eyes where they see this beauty.

39:06 But from a winemaker in background, imagine all the toughest part. So for me, it's also part of my role when I go back to Callerosa to share this beauty, also to the team that made it possible. I didn't understand that. What kind of questions do you get when you make your presentation? And first of all, when you're doing this, are you with consumers this trip, or are you with distributor reps that you're trying to keep? Usually I do a little bit of mix. So there's the Wine Spectator event running, so I was also there pouring the wines. And here you have a mix of everybody. So you have the final consumers, you have restaurants, you have sommeliers, you have distributor importers.

39:46 And then I'm just going around with my different distributors, depending on the state, where usually we meet only with restaurants and sommelier and hotels. So at the consumer event or the type of event that you did, the wine spectators in San Diego, right? It was San Diego. And then I'll do Tampa next week. And what kind of questions are people asking you? But, you know, you have every kind of question. Some people don't really know Italy, so they want to understand where exactly in Italy we are located. Some people want to know the variety. Some people, usually the first thing they do is they check the alcohol content before even listening to the stories. And some older people just don't say anything, want to listen to stories, and then they post questions.

40:31 So in those kind of events, you really see every possible scenario, but you have to be rather flexible, you know? Yeah. You know, sometimes people don't really want to understand the technical part, but they want a little bit more, the emotional part. They want to be transported in Tuscany, in the hills. They want to imagine themselves being there with this glass of wine. Some other people are really interested on the technical, the percentage of the blend, the aging and type of soils, etc. Do you have hospitality in Tuscany? Yeah, we do. It's very important. Of course, we are in a small city, so there's not much tourism, just walking in. But we're doing hospitality. We're investing on that. We're building a small warehouse with hospitality area just down the hill, so it's closer to the main street, so people can stop by just for a quick tasting or maybe come and join us in the winery for a longer tasting. Where's the podcast host? Guest quarters. We didn't plan it, but still we are working on it. We are building it. So maybe I can put a nice road to have a corner where we can do that.

41:46 It's always one of my questions. Well, no, because it. One of the things that you probably see in Bordeaux, which was not hospitable. I don't mean they were not being friendly, but the hospitality side of wine trade in Bordeaux was not part of the equation even 20 years ago. Right. You couldn't walk into a tasting room and taste. And now you can. In many places, they prefer appointments. In fact, I'll never forget going to vin Expo in 1993. You know, you just didn't show up. And it would take, they would prefer weeks in advance to know that you're coming. That was just the nature of the beast. Along comes Napa. You know, the. The wine rooms are open, there's welcome visitors. A little bit different postco, but it's still that way.

42:35 But it seems like in Bordeaux, even in Santa Mill, they've created the hospitality side of for sure the last few years, last decades. Every wine region in the world invests a lot in that. And for sure, Bordeaux is a very good example where everything changed. And now you can visit almost every winery. They're investing a lot in hospitality. They're doing a lot with small group, big groups. And that's very important because we have Beautiful stories to share, beautiful wine to share. So the best way is just to open the doors to having people in and to share this amazing. Well, you know, tourism is up. You know, obviously when I travel, I'd make a point of finding wineries to go visit no matter where I'm at. Even in the Midwest of America, where you taste terrible wines, which is interesting to me, because the Midwest of Army of America was the heart of the wine business before Prohibition and then afterwards, by then, it had evolved to America, to California and et cetera.

43:38 And now it's coming back. There's a guy in Kansas who's growing these bizarre American varietals that, I mean, they're really interesting wines, to say the least. In Long island, in New York, all those places are becoming important. Virginia, interesting parts of enology. But enology, you know, tourism. Tourism of wine is up all over the world. Well, that's a strong trend, and for sure. And that's the strength of wine, right? We mentioned it at the beginning. We were saying it's not just about the liquid, but it's about the experience behind it. And there's no better way to experience it. So to visit the wineries, which usually are in amazing areas, and to share a glass of wine, understand the wine. Because I believe that now people are more interested to see what's behind the production.

44:27 So being there, seeing the facilities, but mostly having different glass in front of you and understand the difference between each other. And most of people that say, I don't understand about wine, but when they have two different glasses in front of them, they will see the difference. And that's the best way to do it, is just sit and enjoy this experience. That's one of my favorite stories. I don't think my friend listens to the show anymore, but if he did, he's heard it. And we were in Napa years ago. We were at a winery called Clopigas, and we had two Cabernets in front of us at the moment. One was two different variety, two different vineyards. Or one of them might have been a blend of all their vineyards, and one might have been vineyard designate, both 2014s. And he was sort of commenting on that.

45:14 You. And I would say I. I smell herbs or I smell the soil, you know, whatever we detect on a glass of wine. And he looked at me because I think that's, you know, I think you're full of bs. You know, it's wrong. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you guys just say this stuff, and it doesn't mean anything. I said, well, you have two Cabernets in front of you right now, and they're both the same vintage or the same year, but they're different wines. Do they taste different to you? He said, yes. I go, you're on your way. Whether you can define or not is not the issue, but that's the beauty of what we're trying to portray. I've been working with the Armenian wine trade a lot lately because of my heritage, and they're trying to get global recognition. They were at Vin Wine Paris, and I did it. I actually have four shows coming out this. This week on. On the trade. And it's so difficult. I mean, can you imagine? Here you are, you've got an established region, an established winery and established grapes, established path to market wine. But here's a country that no one has really heard of the country, let alone know they have wine. And then varietals you can't even pronounce right, trying to get traction in the world of wine. Imagine the difficulty you. It would be huge. Yeah. The headwinds you have doing this every day, trying to get it done. But it's. And therein lies the reason that people love this industry.

46:46 It takes. Or the people that survive this industry. It takes so much passion and so much energy and of course, for these headwinds to get through these headwinds. Yeah, it takes energy, it takes passion, and it takes time. Yeah, it takes time. So nowadays, of course, everybody knows Bordeaux. Most of people knows Tuscany, but I've been to places where people don't really know where Tuscany is or where Tuscany is. But they all know Bordeaux. They all know Burgundy, of course, takes time. If you think about Giscourt is producing wine for more than 450 years in the same place, the same vineyard. That's amazing. It's 400 plus 50 years talking about that wine, producing, that, sending wine. It takes about time. Callerosa is still a young project, but of course, now we are in a strong region and we are working great job. And of course, G School is helping out us in the world to be known, but it takes time. You know what I love about the European model of this appellation, Control, et cetera.

47:53 In Italy in particular, as well as France, you don't just protect the grapes, the varieties, the land, the area, the structure. And when you talk about France and Italy, there's such two different, dynamically different cultures, but they have the same respect for the land, the appellation. And so you have your. Your cured Meat by region. You have your pastas by region. They're protected to the extent of your balsamic vinegar in Modena. All those things keep an identity. America doesn't have that. We have a region called Napa. You have Sonoma, that you can make that definite. But we don't have regional characteristics that are defended by the government or defended by the society. And I. I envy that. And a lot of people think that's a curse. It's so important, especially in Italy. We have so much complexity.

48:45 Yeah. In everything, of course, wine, but then can be. Olive oil, can be about plants in general. Then you have cultural, then you have food, then you have pasta, then you have everything. So when you have such complexity, it's so important to protect it. Yeah. Do you think the. This might be a loaded question. The. The average Italian that lives in a little village makes their foods of the village and drinks the wines. Drinks the wine they make in the basement, probably, right? Yeah. Mostly they will do that. They will be producing the wine or doing the wine in the basement. In the area is still pretty common. I mean, I grew up with my father. We are from Milan, the north, so there's not much wine in our area. But I grew up with my father buying the damigiana, which in French is damijian, which is a big bottle of 50 or like 10 gallons, more or less. And you buy it, like bulk, and then you take it home and you bottle it with friends.

49:47 Wow. So culturally, this is quite normal everywhere in Italy. And if you're in an area where you can grow a little bit and produce wine, then you do your own wine, your home. So in the south of Italy, it's quite normal to have your garden, your grapes, and you produce your own wine. I think that's so. And I think the Americans missed that. They missed that. Well, actually, in LA, when. When wine came to LA in the 1700s, late 1700s, you could go down to the local guy and get your demi john filled with. With wine and bring it home. You could do that. You can't do it anymore. It's against the law to do that, which is kind of a ridiculous. Right. And my father grew up in Cairo, and his father would send him down the road.

50:34 There was the pharmacy, which is what he was by trade, eventually. And in the pharmacy were the sweet and the dry vats, and he would get a liter of each and bring them home. My grandfather would blend them and. Wow. Does that speak of culture. And here you're talking about a little village in Italy. Sure. It happened in France, even happened in America for a long time. How ingrained in the humanity is really is wine. And when you think about those kinds of experiences, we're done, actually, we're out of time. It was hard to believe. But I have to tell you a story because I just thought of this when we were talking. One of my shows that just came out, we were in Armenia. We're over by the Iranian border, and they say the Iranians come.

51:19 In fact, during all this war stuff, they had stationed a couple of news reporters in that village in Armenia because they expected the Iranian people to come back to Armenia to get out of the war zone and come to Armenia. And there are kiosks on the side of the road with women and men selling their homemade wines in Coca Cola plastic bottles. And so as part of one of these shows, the director goes, let's go taste some wine. I go, look, I'm not tasting that. I mean, are you kidding? We ran across the street and there's this woman's beautiful, beautiful grape clusters. I mean, unbelievable. And the grape there in Armenia is called Adeni and the main snake grape.

52:05 And she poured me this glass of wine and I'm like, this is. This is completely palatable, you know. And then she says, it was a 2 liter thing. I go, that's. I don't. I wanted to buy some from her because she took care of us, but I didn't want to buy 2 liters. So she says, no problem in Armenian. I don't speak Armenian. She takes a funnel and puts it in a 1 liter jar, just pours in there. I go, this is, this is really living, you know, wine. Right. It's so ingrained in their culture and probably the villages of Italy, like that is the same. It's really an honor to be part of the industry, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. But, you know, it's not just about. It's part of the life, part of the culture.

52:49 It's part of our quotidianity. I wish you all the luck in the world teaching people this as you travel the country, the worlds, and having that one on one conversation. They're all going to remember having a conversation with Ivo at the Wine Spectator thing. We tasted this biodynamic wine called Kairosha, and that's how it works. That's my mission. I'll do my best. Cheers. Thank you.