How the Judgment of Paris Changed the World of Wine with Stephen Spurrier

1
00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:06,840
Now, from high atop his desk, get

2
00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,360
ready to peel it all back and

3
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,200
get to the root of the subject, no pun

4
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,440
intended, with Paul K

5
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,040
On winetalks,

6
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,560
where he takes no prisoners and calls it

7
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,720
the way he sees it.

8
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,700
Hey, welcome. Welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. We are

9
00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:38,620
available on Google Play, Spotify, itunes, Apple Play, wherever you

10
00:00:38,620 --> 00:00:42,460
guys hang out for your podcasting. And today we are just going

11
00:00:42,460 --> 00:00:45,820
to continue with our Judgment of Paris series. And this is.

12
00:00:46,220 --> 00:00:49,820
I'm honored, I'm privileged, I'm humbled to have with us

13
00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:54,460
what would I say, the architect of what could have been or is

14
00:00:54,460 --> 00:00:57,940
the greatest thing that ever happened to California wine or American wine for that matter.

15
00:00:57,940 --> 00:01:01,720
But really, when you talk about modern times of wine

16
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,520
consumption, there are three things that have happened. Two of

17
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,360
them are dealt with consumption and the primary one, which is the

18
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,160
Judgment of Paris here in 1976, changed the world of wine.

19
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,080
And we have with us Mr. Stephen Spurrier, all the way from Dorset,

20
00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:21,040
England. Welcome to the show. Thank you very

21
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,880
much, Paul. We have so much to talk about. I don't think we can

22
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,000
do it in the 45 minutes that we allocate for this. It doesn't matter. I

23
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,900
got all the time in the world. We're going to have some fun. I wanted

24
00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:34,140
to start with this because we're going to get into the bowels of the Judgment

25
00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:37,300
of Paris, and there's so much press and there's things to talk about. And I've

26
00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:41,140
had George Tabor on the show. I've had Violet Grgich. Mr. Barrett's coming on,

27
00:01:41,140 --> 00:01:44,940
Bowes coming on. You know, there's a lot of history. We'll talk about that soon.

28
00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:48,740
But I want to talk about the first sentence of the book. The first

29
00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:52,500
sentence of the book says, on an Autumn Day in 1970, two, Englishmen

30
00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:55,850
were walking around Paris's posh Right bank near Rue

31
00:01:55,850 --> 00:01:59,570
Royale. Why were two Englishmen walking

32
00:01:59,570 --> 00:02:02,650
around the Right bank and rue Royale in 1970?

33
00:02:03,210 --> 00:02:06,730
How did you get there? Well, I think

34
00:02:08,410 --> 00:02:12,170
I got married. Well, let's start at the start. I joined the

35
00:02:12,250 --> 00:02:16,010
London wine trade in 1964. I'd always

36
00:02:16,090 --> 00:02:19,610
wanted to go into the wine trade. I'm a

37
00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:23,270
younger son, and in

38
00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:27,030
England, the elder brother inherits everything. Yeah. So

39
00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:30,710
I know that, too. That stopped a bit now. So, I

40
00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:34,350
mean, we were a privileged family, so there was money around.

41
00:02:34,910 --> 00:02:38,190
And while I always envied my elder brother

42
00:02:38,510 --> 00:02:41,870
his security, he always envied my independence. Yes.

43
00:02:43,070 --> 00:02:46,630
After university and that. I joined the wine trade in

44
00:02:46,630 --> 00:02:50,240
64 and got married in

45
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,040
early 68. And because of the money

46
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,120
and my love of France, which was already deep inside me,

47
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,320
I bought a property with a ruin on it in the

48
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,280
Department Duval down in the south of France.

49
00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,080
And so my wife and I, the day of our marriage, the evening of

50
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,400
our marriage, we took our first class carriages,

51
00:03:14,170 --> 00:03:17,890
the golden arrow at Victoria, to go to Paris and

52
00:03:17,890 --> 00:03:21,690
to start our life in France. Just like that. Just like

53
00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:25,490
that. Well, I mean I didn't

54
00:03:25,490 --> 00:03:29,090
pass it on at the ceremony, but for the

55
00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:32,930
first few years of our life, whenever I

56
00:03:32,930 --> 00:03:36,450
gave an idea to my wife, she said, well, why not, let's do it. And

57
00:03:36,450 --> 00:03:40,250
unfortunately, when I started the vineyard here about

58
00:03:40,330 --> 00:03:43,800
10 years ago, she said, yeah, why not? As long as you pay for it.

59
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,680
Yeah. A vineyard in England no less. Right.

60
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,320
There I was in Provence. And we tried to rebuild the ruin.

61
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,120
We got ripped off. We were far too young, but we

62
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,400
had a good time in Provence. And it was, you know,

63
00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,800
I was 26 and she was 21 and we

64
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,560
discovered, well, we had a good time

65
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,720
and. But then we knew after two years it wasn't going to

66
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,200
work. So we'd have to go through

67
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,160
a total emigration, I mean

68
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,320
non residents change of residence through the bank of England

69
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,360
because the taxes in England were so horrendous. And we

70
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,120
didn't leave to avoid taxes, but we went through

71
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,880
the system which permitted us to

72
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,470
sort of no longer be considered English

73
00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:41,310
residents. And so Bella, my wife said,

74
00:04:41,310 --> 00:04:44,990
okay, well it's not worked hard. Should we go back to London? Because we

75
00:04:44,990 --> 00:04:48,750
kept our heist there. And I said no, I'm not going back to London

76
00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:52,550
with my tail between my legs. Let's go to Paris and I'll go back

77
00:04:52,550 --> 00:04:56,350
into the wine trade. So we moved to Paris and that was where

78
00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:59,710
white two gentlemen were walking around the Rue Royale

79
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,160
in September 1970. And there was no wine

80
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,680
trade. There was no wine trade in the way that I knew it in London.

81
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,000
Of course there wasn't, there's no reason why there should have been. So there was

82
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,320
no possibility I could have gotten a job

83
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,800
as an Englishman speaking adequate but not very good

84
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,600
French on and so forth. And with my friend who was a lawyer

85
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,640
in the next door, next door block, we passed a wine shop,

86
00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:32,020
little wine shop called the Carvel in Madeleine. And I

87
00:05:32,020 --> 00:05:35,660
said to Christopher, I said, that's my dream, a little shop like

88
00:05:35,660 --> 00:05:39,420
that. I know exactly what I could do with it and that's my

89
00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:43,220
absolute dream. So he dragged me in and I

90
00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:46,660
looked around and eventually the owner,

91
00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:50,180
a sophisticated lady said may I sell you something?

92
00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:54,500
And my Friend said, yes, my friend. My friend

93
00:05:54,980 --> 00:05:58,330
would like to buy your shop. And she said,

94
00:05:59,130 --> 00:06:02,850
actually, it's for sale. So we talked about

95
00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:06,570
it and we discussed it

96
00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:10,610
and the price was set. But then what's

97
00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:13,770
interesting, and it's sort of almost been a pattern in my life,

98
00:06:14,250 --> 00:06:18,010
she got second thoughts because her husband had been a

99
00:06:18,010 --> 00:06:21,690
very good Calviste. He'd been a very good wine merchant, and he

100
00:06:21,690 --> 00:06:25,450
got cancer and he died two years previously. And she was

101
00:06:25,450 --> 00:06:28,410
just holding the fort. And she didn't see

102
00:06:29,450 --> 00:06:33,170
how a young Englishman could honor

103
00:06:33,170 --> 00:06:36,730
the reputation of her husband, of her late

104
00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:40,250
husband. So I said, okay, Madam Future, here's the deal.

105
00:06:40,649 --> 00:06:44,250
We're coming up to October 1st. I'll work for you for

106
00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:47,610
free for six months. And if you think I can honor your

107
00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:50,890
husband's memory, we'll do the deal. If not.

108
00:06:51,390 --> 00:06:55,190
If not, not. So on April 1, which was still April

109
00:06:55,190 --> 00:06:58,030
Fool's Day in Paris, they call it the Poisson. I was going to ask that

110
00:06:58,030 --> 00:07:01,710
question, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it only runs until midday.

111
00:07:04,110 --> 00:07:07,910
April 1, 1971. She gave me the keys to the cash

112
00:07:07,910 --> 00:07:11,230
desk and I took it over. Now, in those six months,

113
00:07:11,550 --> 00:07:15,390
I'd learned much better French. I knew exactly what

114
00:07:15,390 --> 00:07:18,630
I wanted to do with the shop. I was already. I got to know the

115
00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:22,350
clientele. We were in what was called the Golden Triangle,

116
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:25,950
the Place La Madeleine, the Rue Royale, the Boulevard Malesherbes,

117
00:07:27,550 --> 00:07:31,310
all that kind of stuff. And Paris was much more

118
00:07:31,630 --> 00:07:35,310
international in those days than it is now. All the American banks were there,

119
00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:39,230
all the American and English law firms were there, and they were all in

120
00:07:39,230 --> 00:07:43,070
the eighth. And so I had this English clientele

121
00:07:43,670 --> 00:07:47,030
basically at my feet. But

122
00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:50,950
Madame Fougere had never, because she didn't speak English, had never

123
00:07:50,950 --> 00:07:54,710
thought about them. So the day I took it over,

124
00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:58,990
I placed an ad in the Herald Tribune which said,

125
00:07:58,990 --> 00:08:02,070
your wine merchant speaks English. Ring Steven Spiderman.

126
00:08:02,550 --> 00:08:06,230
What a benefit, right? And that's really how it began. And

127
00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:09,550
so within, I mean, I did, I have to admit, I didn't know what I

128
00:08:09,550 --> 00:08:13,350
was doing. And we

129
00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:17,150
were bottling Vaude Neur at the time. And I got rid of all that

130
00:08:17,150 --> 00:08:20,430
I didn't intend to sell Vaudinaire. And the

131
00:08:20,430 --> 00:08:24,190
supplier of the inexpensive but inexpensive

132
00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:28,350
va ordinaire said, monsieur Espilier, you're going to lose half your

133
00:08:28,350 --> 00:08:31,870
clientele. I said, that's the half I want to lose. So

134
00:08:32,830 --> 00:08:35,550
it was, I mean, I was young and,

135
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,360
you know, a bit of a dreamer. You said something, though, that what you've done,

136
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,040
I mean, I'm going back Just from when you moved to France.

137
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,320
And I'm from a family of immigrants. My father immigrated to America in

138
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,160
1949, my grandfather, my grandmother, et cetera.

139
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,960
You know, this is a risk. And if you read about Mike Girgich in the,

140
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,640
in the book, and he comes From Croatia with $32, did

141
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,080
you consider this a risk when you just picked up and left with your wife

142
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,400
and moved to the Provence? And then once you decided to do that, was it

143
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,740
even. No, no, we had, we had tremendous. I mean, we.

144
00:09:10,060 --> 00:09:13,740
I had kept. Because I was moving to

145
00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:17,820
an address with a house on it, even though it was a ruined

146
00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:21,660
house. We kept our four

147
00:09:21,660 --> 00:09:23,660
story house in Chelsea. Yeah. So.

148
00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:28,460
And there was a bit of money on both sides

149
00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:32,380
and we were young and

150
00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:35,500
adventurous, but we were totally secure financially. There was

151
00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:37,270
no risk.

152
00:09:41,510 --> 00:09:45,190
There was no financial risk. It never occurred to us

153
00:09:45,190 --> 00:09:47,270
because we didn't actually.

154
00:09:50,310 --> 00:09:53,310
I'm certainly not going to say we had more money than we needed. It's not

155
00:09:53,310 --> 00:09:57,110
that. But we didn't actually think of financial

156
00:09:57,350 --> 00:10:01,030
stuff at that time. So you pick up, you move to Paris, you find

157
00:10:01,030 --> 00:10:04,270
this unbelievable store. And I love the Van

158
00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:07,670
Odonaire conversation because it says in the book, you're wheeling

159
00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:11,630
barrels around. You know, in those days you could do that, right.

160
00:10:11,630 --> 00:10:15,310
You could come in with your carafe or your bottles or your. Whatever they call

161
00:10:15,310 --> 00:10:17,670
it and you can fill it up. And you could do that in America at

162
00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:21,390
that time too. You can't do it now. But you had an idea

163
00:10:21,390 --> 00:10:25,150
then that this store was going to be more classical, let's say

164
00:10:25,150 --> 00:10:28,390
English merchant. And I'm interested to know why you think

165
00:10:29,790 --> 00:10:33,510
in Paris at that time that there wasn't a wine trade of

166
00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:36,350
to sort of. There wasn't a wine store in every corner, maybe like they would.

167
00:10:36,830 --> 00:10:40,590
There was, there was, there

168
00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:44,030
was a Nicolas store. Oh, yeah, he's a famous guy.

169
00:10:44,510 --> 00:10:48,190
Yeah. But I mean, they were brilliant stores. They had wines going back to the

170
00:10:48,190 --> 00:10:51,990
19th century. I mean, they were fantastic. Wow. But they

171
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:55,730
were, they. But then there were a lot of independent stores that were

172
00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:59,570
known as Carviste. And then there were three or four real top wine

173
00:10:59,570 --> 00:11:03,330
merchants. There was Jean Baptiste Bess, Jean Baptiste Chaudet,

174
00:11:03,330 --> 00:11:07,090
both on the Left bank, and Lucien Le grand on the Right Bank. And

175
00:11:07,090 --> 00:11:10,410
it was Le grand that I became particularly friendly and did

176
00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:14,290
quite a lot of stuff with. But then Paris was. And then there were the

177
00:11:14,290 --> 00:11:18,010
luxury stores like Fauchon and Ediyard. So Paris was

178
00:11:18,010 --> 00:11:21,770
certainly not a backwater in terms of wine.

179
00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:25,370
I would say that the consumers, the Parisians Themselves

180
00:11:25,610 --> 00:11:28,970
were backwaters because they drank a lot of rubbish

181
00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:34,490
and they were not terribly. They were more concerned

182
00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:38,210
with the price of the bottle than what it tasted like. And I guess

183
00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,450
that was what I was determined

184
00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:45,970
to change. Every single wine I bought for the shop was

185
00:11:45,970 --> 00:11:49,760
a wine where I knew the producer. I'd been to the estate,

186
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,880
and I drink it myself. So

187
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,560
that was. And I never sold wine. I just said, try this,

188
00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,400
you'll like it. And it worked. That's interesting because

189
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,720
we're going to talk about this later, because once we get to the Judgment of

190
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,480
Paris story itself, but we're kind of confronted with that in

191
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,320
the industry right now. And I've said this many times on the show, but

192
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,160
people are bringing in €1 per liter wines in America, bottling

193
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,230
them under a bunch of labels, putting. Put him on Groupon for three or four

194
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:23,910
dollars. And it's kind of interesting that we're going

195
00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:26,790
back. Seems like there's a part of

196
00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:31,110
consumption that seems to be going backwards, and then

197
00:12:31,270 --> 00:12:34,070
we're trying to get it to go forward. So we'll talk about that when I

198
00:12:34,070 --> 00:12:35,190
get the judgment of Paris.

199
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:41,550
So we have this store and you've now are establishing this

200
00:12:41,550 --> 00:12:45,300
American and English clientele. So, you know, I'm

201
00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:48,860
a huge fan of Ernest Hemingway's A Moveable

202
00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:52,220
Feast, you know, which sets in the twenties in Paris. It seems so

203
00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:56,060
romantic. The movie A Midnight in Paris is kind

204
00:12:56,060 --> 00:12:59,780
of focused on that. And you said that it was not as international.

205
00:13:00,660 --> 00:13:04,460
It is more international then than it is today. That's. No, no, no. There

206
00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:08,140
were more. Paris was still very, very French. I

207
00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:11,740
see. Basically I had IBM. The whole

208
00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:15,340
offices of IBM were in the street next door. Street to

209
00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:18,500
me. But the

210
00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:22,780
average Parisian did not speak English. So although all the

211
00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:24,420
international companies were there,

212
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:30,500
it was. It was not an international

213
00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:34,180
city like. Like London has become and like Paris is now.

214
00:13:35,780 --> 00:13:39,420
And with the. With my Anglo Saxon clientele, I

215
00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:43,140
certainly kept my French clientele. And the shop

216
00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:46,660
was expanding. They used to drop by in the

217
00:13:46,660 --> 00:13:50,500
evenings and taste a glass of wine or two. And

218
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:52,860
I used to talk them through it. And

219
00:13:54,140 --> 00:13:57,620
one of them, they were in a law firm in the Place de

220
00:13:57,620 --> 00:14:01,460
Madeleine. He said, you know, if you

221
00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:05,020
could ever put this in a structured manner, we'd love to learn about wine,

222
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:09,050
because we don't know anything about wine. And the place next door,

223
00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:12,290
which was a locksmith and I don't know what the hell you want a locksmith

224
00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:16,090
in the middle of Paris for. But anyway, it was a locksmith

225
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:20,210
on two floors came up for sale And I made a bid

226
00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:23,210
for it at the bankruptcy auction and I got it

227
00:14:23,770 --> 00:14:27,610
and founded l' Academy du Vin. Now, what's interesting,

228
00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:32,730
I wasn't going to call it l' Academy du Vin. I wanted to call it

229
00:14:32,730 --> 00:14:36,450
Lambassade du Vin because I thought of myself as an ambassador

230
00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:39,570
for wine and not an educator. But

231
00:14:39,970 --> 00:14:43,730
Lambassade du Vin had been taken by someone else, and l' Academie

232
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:47,330
du Vin, being such a. I suppose a grand name, had

233
00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:51,050
not. So hence l' Academie du Vin was formed, which

234
00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:54,770
was the first privately owned wine school in France,

235
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:58,530
run by an American friend of mine called John Winroth and myself.

236
00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:01,650
And basically, that is

237
00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:06,470
the base, the kernel of the Judgment of Paris.

238
00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:10,470
Had there been no Academy du Vin, the Judgment of Paris would not

239
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:13,670
have. Happened, which is fascinating because George says

240
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:16,870
that's how he learned about it. Yeah,

241
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:22,070
he was doing a wine course with us. But the thing is that. So

242
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:27,110
I opened in late 72,

243
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:30,090
early 73, in

244
00:15:30,730 --> 00:15:34,250
October 72, an American lady who'd been working

245
00:15:34,410 --> 00:15:38,210
on the Herald Tribune, who had become a

246
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:41,370
client of the shop came to see me and

247
00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:45,970
she saw what was going on next door and she said, what's that? I said,

248
00:15:45,970 --> 00:15:48,250
it's going to be a wine school. She said, well,

249
00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:53,330
would you like anyone to help you with it? And I said, well, I think

250
00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:56,930
that's a great idea because we could use the help. I'm running the

251
00:15:56,930 --> 00:16:00,650
shop and. Sure. So Patricia Gallagher was American

252
00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:04,410
and she. Her family had come over,

253
00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:08,010
you know, in the late 1600s. She wasn't one of the

254
00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:12,450
earliest, but they came over on the east coast where she

255
00:16:12,450 --> 00:16:16,170
still. Her family still has roots and

256
00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:20,290
she was very proud of being American and not in

257
00:16:20,290 --> 00:16:23,970
a. In a show off sense, but she was proud of her roots. And

258
00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:27,820
so every 4th of July, you know, from

259
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:31,420
73, 74, 75 onwards, she tried to find American wine in

260
00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:35,220
Paris and couldn't because maybe Fauchon had Almaden or

261
00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:38,980
something. But then what was most important, because

262
00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:42,620
we had the wine school and we had a big tasting room and we

263
00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:45,700
spoke English and we were bang in the middle of Paris.

264
00:16:46,580 --> 00:16:50,140
California vintner's producers and the journalists

265
00:16:50,140 --> 00:16:53,510
like Robert Finnegan and Alexis Bespalov

266
00:16:56,710 --> 00:17:00,230
came to the shop, came to La Cabaret de Vine,

267
00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:03,670
and the California producers brought their wine.

268
00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:07,030
And I'd never tasted California wine before.

269
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:11,190
Patricia had not tasted California wine of that quality before.

270
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:15,190
And it was entirely due to Patricia that

271
00:17:16,550 --> 00:17:19,980
the idea came

272
00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:23,500
that we should hold a tasting of these wines to

273
00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:27,380
simply draw attention to the quality coming out of

274
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:30,780
California. Totally

275
00:17:30,780 --> 00:17:34,260
altruistic. And we'd given tastings, I mean, we'd given

276
00:17:34,260 --> 00:17:37,700
tastings of Australian wine from the Australian

277
00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:41,340
embassy, Spanish wine from the Spanish embassy. We were, you know,

278
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:45,450
basically the only game in town who ever thought

279
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:48,570
of non French wine. And but this was.

280
00:17:48,810 --> 00:17:52,490
Patricia took this to another plane and she had vacation

281
00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:56,250
in September. 75, she went to San Francisco.

282
00:17:57,050 --> 00:18:00,890
Robert Finnegan marked her card a bit. She went to Marta Lena, she went

283
00:18:00,890 --> 00:18:04,490
to Stag's Leap, she went all over the place. And she came back

284
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:08,250
saying, it's extraordinary, we must do this. And I said,

285
00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:11,270
okay, Patricia, that's fine, we'll do it.

286
00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:15,590
But you insist. We need a peg to hang it on.

287
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:19,910
And because this is going to be a bigger

288
00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:24,230
thing and it's a risk, it's

289
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:27,990
not just a one off tasting. We're trying to achieve something here. We're not just

290
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:31,510
showing a range of wines from Spain. And so we need

291
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:35,030
a raison d' etre. And she said, I've got the perfect

292
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,600
raison d' etre. 76 is the bicentennial of the

293
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,360
War of Independence. Wow, I've never heard

294
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:47,120
that connection. And I said, well, you know, we Brits don't really celebrate

295
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,560
having lost the colony, but I'll go along with that.

296
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,240
And so that was Patricia's idea. And so once we got the peg

297
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,240
and it was totally altruistic, we then began to invite

298
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,250
the tasters. We got over

299
00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:06,050
to Valerie and you've got all the tastes, all their names in George's book. And

300
00:19:06,050 --> 00:19:09,570
we were very well known. We were. Well, we were well known, we were highly

301
00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:13,290
respected, we were very much liked. We never put our hand out

302
00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:17,210
for any sponsorship or any freebies. And so

303
00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:21,290
the tasters, all of whom we knew, well,

304
00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:24,410
we knew most of them. We. I didn't know

305
00:19:25,690 --> 00:19:29,350
Raymond Oliver, the chef at the Grand Ver four. I

306
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:32,910
didn't know Pierre Brejoux from the Institut des Applasses controller.

307
00:19:32,910 --> 00:19:36,630
But you know, it was an invitation from Academy Dauphin to taste

308
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:40,390
California wine. So they all ticked the box and said yes. So May

309
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:43,230
24th rolled along. I went to

310
00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:48,230
California with my wife over Easter, which was in

311
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:52,030
April, to make a final selection. And we had six

312
00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:55,430
Chardonnays and six Cabernet based wines.

313
00:19:56,310 --> 00:20:00,030
And thanks to Joanne Dupuis, who is

314
00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:03,830
bringing a group of 22 people, a wine and tennis

315
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:07,630
group, she hand carried the wines because I wouldn't have been able to get

316
00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:10,550
24 bottles through the French customs

317
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:14,230
on my own. So Joanne really kind of

318
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:18,270
facilitated the tasting in that sense. And

319
00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:21,490
I gave a tasting for her group, which included Andre

320
00:20:21,490 --> 00:20:25,210
Cheliceff and Louis Martini and really all the great and the good,

321
00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:28,810
but the senior members of the California wine

322
00:20:28,810 --> 00:20:32,050
establishment at La Canada du Vin.

323
00:20:33,410 --> 00:20:37,090
But a week or so

324
00:20:37,090 --> 00:20:40,810
before the tasting, it occurred to me that with the

325
00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:44,650
exception of Aubrey de Vilain, who was married to a girl from

326
00:20:44,650 --> 00:20:48,430
San Francisco, Pamela, nobody

327
00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:52,350
to my knowledge would have ever tasted California wine before.

328
00:20:53,390 --> 00:20:57,030
And I was worried that. Why would they? Yeah,

329
00:20:57,030 --> 00:21:00,830
well, I think Christoph Vaniquet, who was the youngest chef sommelier in

330
00:21:00,830 --> 00:21:04,630
Paris at the Tour d' Argent, he almost certainly would have

331
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:08,350
done, but I. But basically the

332
00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:11,950
other tasters, many of whom were of, you know,

333
00:21:11,950 --> 00:21:14,560
a certain age, and I was afraid

334
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,120
that however much they appreciated the quality,

335
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,520
they would kind of damn the wines with

336
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,360
faint praise like, oh, c' est pas mal.

337
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,040
And it would go off like a damp squid.

338
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,440
And I couldn't risk that. And I

339
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,640
proposed to Patricia that I put the four best

340
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,160
white Burgundy's and the four best red Bordeaux from my shop

341
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,080
into the tasting and make it a blind tasting. And she said,

342
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,880
you can't do that because they're not coming to a blind tasting, they're

343
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,600
not coming to a competition. They're coming to taste California

344
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,000
wines. I said, well, I'm going to do it anyway.

345
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,960
And so what? The wines are in George's book. Bata

346
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,640
Marache, Pune Marache. There was no.

347
00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:10,700
They were really chosen. And also the vintages match too. They were

348
00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:14,460
chosen just so the California wines,

349
00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:18,660
if they slipped through in maybe a third or a

350
00:22:18,660 --> 00:22:22,460
fifth, they would at least have got recognition vis a vis

351
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:25,980
the benchmarks of France. And we

352
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:29,180
chose them in a random order. I just put the names of

353
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:33,820
the wines on a bit of paper, screwed up the bit of paper.

354
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,400
Somebody took the piece of paper out of the hat. So the order of service

355
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,000
is random. The wines were served one by one,

356
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,880
which would not happen today. They would be left on the table. So you go

357
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,280
backwards and forwards. And when the tasters turned up,

358
00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:53,560
I said, you have been invited just to taste California

359
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,920
wines. And I thought it would be interesting to make it a blind

360
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,490
tasting with the benchmark

361
00:23:00,490 --> 00:23:03,170
wines from Burgundy and from Bordeaux.

362
00:23:03,970 --> 00:23:07,410
And do you agree? And they said, yes. Yeah.

363
00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:11,210
Pourquoi pas? Yeah. And so why

364
00:23:11,210 --> 00:23:15,050
would they not? And sort of the rest is. The rest is history.

365
00:23:15,050 --> 00:23:18,770
But it was a series of. The

366
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:22,050
idea was Patricia's, the whole package was

367
00:23:22,050 --> 00:23:25,170
Patricia's. But I just

368
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,000
didn't want to take the risk of it going off as a damp squib.

369
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,080
And so, you know, we made it a

370
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,880
blind tasting. With the results, which, I mean, no one was

371
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,440
more surprised than me, but you'll see from George's

372
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,200
book, Chateau Martinez, six tasters put that top

373
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,320
and three tasters put it second. My bet was Charlotte. The three

374
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,880
tasters put shallow in second. But I thought Charlene was going to, was going to

375
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,730
come. Yeah, richer usually. Yeah, yeah. So. And then

376
00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:57,970
of course the results of the whites were

377
00:23:59,410 --> 00:24:03,170
divulged while all the whites were being cleared away. And that

378
00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:06,850
created a little consternation, of course.

379
00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:11,650
No, not so bad. Not shock horror. But I think

380
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:15,370
certain tasters, nameless, were

381
00:24:15,370 --> 00:24:19,090
determined that it wouldn't happen again. And if

382
00:24:19,090 --> 00:24:22,580
you look at the rankings out of 20 in the

383
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:26,220
reds, certain wines get two and four out of 20.

384
00:24:26,780 --> 00:24:29,900
Well, you don't give that kind of mark.

385
00:24:30,460 --> 00:24:33,180
So I think the tasters who gave those marks

386
00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:36,220
recognized them as California, quite correct,

387
00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:40,980
complete to slam them. And so it's always been in the back of

388
00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:44,820
my mind that stag's leap from four year

389
00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:47,830
old vines, 100% cabernet sauvignon

390
00:24:48,790 --> 00:24:51,590
with Andrzej Tszedichev as a wine advisor

391
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:56,950
was so elegant and

392
00:24:58,950 --> 00:25:02,750
un burley, so elegant that a

393
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:05,750
lot of the tasters thought it was French. And I think

394
00:25:07,030 --> 00:25:10,510
they gave it a good look. It came top. I've run the

395
00:25:10,510 --> 00:25:14,100
numbers backwards and forwards everywhere you want. Stagsley

396
00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:17,620
still comes top. And

397
00:25:17,860 --> 00:25:21,700
I think it, it was the only of one of

398
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,460
the California wines which had, which

399
00:25:25,460 --> 00:25:29,060
could have possibly been mistaken for French. So that's just.

400
00:25:29,380 --> 00:25:33,220
But doesn't that even, doesn't even buck the idea in

401
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:37,140
modern winemaking that you can't make a decent wine from that first

402
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:40,860
vintage of the first four or five, you know, harvests of grapes.

403
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,900
I think that's rubbish and apparently. Well, no,

404
00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:48,060
no, I mean, I think that's rubbish because I mean, the vines are there

405
00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:53,940
to produce grapes and that's what they want to do. And you

406
00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:57,620
can produce grapes and make wine in the Trois

407
00:25:57,620 --> 00:26:01,180
and feuille in a third leaf. So

408
00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:05,020
this is a 73 and Warren had planted

409
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:08,170
in 1970. So actually they were in the

410
00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:13,130
1771 70, so they were in their fourth leaf. So this was

411
00:26:13,130 --> 00:26:16,250
basically their second vintage. But I don't think Warren had.

412
00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:19,450
Anyway, if he'd made a 72, I didn't know about it.

413
00:26:20,810 --> 00:26:24,450
My bet for the reds was Ridge and ridge, eventually

414
00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:28,250
in 2006, ended up wiping the floor with everything. But

415
00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:31,850
it was an absolute fair

416
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,520
blind tasting, as George recorded. And all

417
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,160
the tasters, without exception, when they got

418
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,880
back to where they lived in Bordeaux Or Burgundy or wherever,

419
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,800
got a really hard time of having betrayed France.

420
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,040
And not a single one of them mentioned that to me until

421
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,360
the 30th anniversary in 2006.

422
00:26:58,250 --> 00:27:02,050
And those of them who were still alive said, you

423
00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:05,610
know, Stephen, we can tell you now, but we really suffered.

424
00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:09,210
Wow. I can imagine. There wasn't supposed to happen.

425
00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:11,450
Pierre Brejou, who was the

426
00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:18,050
director of the Institut des Appellacieux Controlles, was

427
00:27:18,050 --> 00:27:21,730
asked to resign. And Pierre Tarry

428
00:27:21,730 --> 00:27:25,140
of Charda Giscol, who was the mayor of Margaux, suggested he

429
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:27,940
resign as may. All this kind of stuff

430
00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:32,420
they never told me because they knew that

431
00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:36,100
the tasting had been held in honest

432
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,940
circumstances. Well, tell me about the. I want to read you something in a second,

433
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:43,620
but tell me then, because this is. I've read this many times about.

434
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:48,180
I think the wine trade in Bordeaux in the 70s was suffering a

435
00:27:48,180 --> 00:27:50,910
little bit of a dip. There was some. I know that

436
00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:54,910
Bordeaux was classically English trade.

437
00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:58,190
Basically you would bottle in England or you would, you know, they had control of

438
00:27:58,190 --> 00:28:01,750
the negociant status. Was that a

439
00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:05,150
real thing at the time? By

440
00:28:05,150 --> 00:28:08,830
76 they were fine. They were fine, okay. But the big scandal was

441
00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:12,790
the Cruz scandal was 73. 72, 73, the

442
00:28:12,790 --> 00:28:16,510
seven days war or whatever, the. Well, Melvin, our friend

443
00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:19,798
Melvin, he lost everything in 72,

444
00:28:19,962 --> 00:28:23,420
73. So they had recovered. The

445
00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:26,860
72 vintage was terrible. The 73 vintage wasn't too bad.

446
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,460
Bordeaux had recovered by 76. It wasn't

447
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:34,900
economically very secure, but they weren't suffering as they had been

448
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:38,740
three or four years previously. But they didn't need the

449
00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:42,140
competition. They did not need to be told that

450
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:45,740
Catholic from Napa Valley had beaten them.

451
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,600
That's not going to help. Let me. I want to read you something from my

452
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,440
dad. This is my father's newsletter. August 76. He

453
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,120
says he actually. He reprints the column from the

454
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,960
Time magazine, June 7, Time magazine. But then he writes, we received the

455
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,200
official results from Mr. Spurrier's Lacademie Devant

456
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,320
25 Rue Royale Paris and reproduce them here for

457
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,960
you. The 20 point system was used and the results are shown as total

458
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,610
points. The tastings were held blind. And then he

459
00:29:15,610 --> 00:29:19,410
lists the winners and goes on. This is a remarkable accomplishment for Jim Barrett

460
00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:23,050
of Chateau Montelena and for Warren Woodiarski of Stag Sleep. Jim is a local

461
00:29:23,050 --> 00:29:26,290
palace for these resident and a practicing attorney of Torrance,

462
00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:29,850
spends his weekends at the winery. Warren has been a friend of the palace radies,

463
00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:33,250
wines and spirits as Jim has and gives us a visit whenever he's in town

464
00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:37,330
now. I learned. I mean, I knew Mr. Barrett was a local person. I used

465
00:29:37,330 --> 00:29:41,020
to surf with the youngest son, Kevin, and the

466
00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:44,220
older brother Beau, now is the owner and winemaker. But

467
00:29:45,660 --> 00:29:49,380
I didn't know Warren Winiarski slept in my brother's room when

468
00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:53,220
he came into town. And that just befuddled me. But then, and

469
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:56,820
I'm just taking you back just for a second, chapter 16 of the

470
00:29:56,820 --> 00:30:00,620
book. I want you to just reflect on this. Chapter 16 of the book

471
00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:04,740
starts with. In the summer of 1975, Patricia Gallagher was

472
00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:08,410
making plans to visit her sister and Palace Verdes Estates, the

473
00:30:08,410 --> 00:30:11,410
wealthy coastal communities such as south of Los Angeles,

474
00:30:11,970 --> 00:30:15,810
goes on to talk about your relationship with her. So I told this,

475
00:30:15,810 --> 00:30:19,610
my father, he's 92 now, and this is about, I don't know, a few weeks

476
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:23,250
ago, I told him I visit him, he's in San Diego. I said, dad,

477
00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:26,370
this is what it says in the book. He says, oh, yeah, she came into

478
00:30:26,370 --> 00:30:29,810
the store. I go, what do you mean? He says, well, she came in,

479
00:30:30,050 --> 00:30:33,220
introduced herself and said what she was doing. Not just

480
00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:37,260
not about the Judgment of Paris in the sense of a contest, that she was

481
00:30:37,260 --> 00:30:40,820
looking for some California wines. And it kind of jives

482
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,500
because back then in la, there were only really five

483
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,900
stores that had any premium wine selections. My father's, Duke of

484
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:51,700
Bourbon, Wally's and a couple others. And it just turns

485
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:55,460
out that Patricia Gallagher's sister lives in Palos Verres Estates. So

486
00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:58,740
I find this connection kind of intriguing for me and.

487
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,080
And I wanted to tell the story that, you know,

488
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,040
I want to continue the story of the Judgment of Paris for younger

489
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,800
wine drinkers to understand, you know, how all this came about. George says to

490
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,400
me in his interview, well, I think California wines would

491
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,960
have eventually made their way into the world scene. Five or ten years later,

492
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,320
I'm like, yeah, but we wouldn't be having this conversation

493
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,320
because it was an event. It was a turning event. And it.

494
00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:29,950
The migration, a slow migration of California wines into the world of wine would have

495
00:31:29,950 --> 00:31:33,470
been uninteresting. But this event made it interesting.

496
00:31:33,950 --> 00:31:37,310
I mean, I think it was. Well, Warren Winiarski said

497
00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:41,589
the telephone rang off the hook. He couldn't sell his wine on the East

498
00:31:41,589 --> 00:31:45,270
Coast. That's right. So the

499
00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:49,070
telephone rang off the hook. And it was an event which people discussed. It got

500
00:31:49,070 --> 00:31:52,110
so much press. And it was an event which

501
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:57,380
I redid it 10 years later in New York with

502
00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:01,820
Sassy Sheen and Bartholomew Broadbent and a real top

503
00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:05,460
class panel. And that confirmed the quality

504
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:09,260
of California reds. Because the Bordelayer said, you tasted

505
00:32:09,260 --> 00:32:11,940
our wines far too young. Well, that was proved.

506
00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:16,740
That wasn't proved. And the California wines had a

507
00:32:16,740 --> 00:32:20,270
stronger showing in 86. Yes. 30 years later,

508
00:32:20,990 --> 00:32:23,950
20 years, an even. Stronger showing in

509
00:32:24,030 --> 00:32:25,550
2006. But

510
00:32:27,710 --> 00:32:31,390
it was quite plainly a controversial event.

511
00:32:31,790 --> 00:32:35,510
And when you have a controversial event, people discuss it.

512
00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:39,150
And I think that is what gave the impetus

513
00:32:39,310 --> 00:32:42,990
to California wine. Gave the impetus because

514
00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:46,790
it kept on being discussed. You know what's fascinating

515
00:32:46,790 --> 00:32:50,550
to me, too, particularly with today's modern techniques,

516
00:32:50,550 --> 00:32:54,350
and you've got these electronic sorting tables, and they can throw the lizards off

517
00:32:54,350 --> 00:32:57,910
of the stems as they come through the sorting table, these crazy technology.

518
00:32:59,190 --> 00:33:02,910
But you have these phenomenal wines that were made in just

519
00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:06,390
what I would call classical winemaking techniques. You had a

520
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:10,070
refractometer, maybe, and hydrometer, but

521
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,400
you weren't doing all these analysis. It was about phenolic ripeness and all

522
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,880
these things. And here are these gorgeous wines. In fact,

523
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,120
Peter Mondavi was saying it, that the Krug, I don't know,

524
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,800
49 or 52 or something, you know, was scored very

525
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,160
highly recently. How do you. The.

526
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,080
Andrei Cheliceff's Pinot Noirs that he made

527
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,800
in the mid-40s at Berlioz,

528
00:33:38,270 --> 00:33:42,030
some of the greatest wines I've ever had. Wow. They are, I mean,

529
00:33:42,590 --> 00:33:43,630
just unbelievable.

530
00:33:46,510 --> 00:33:49,830
And that was a tasting that I did with a whole bunch of people in

531
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:53,630
1979. But, I mean, they were made as

532
00:33:55,230 --> 00:33:59,030
natural products without all this hoo ha.

533
00:33:59,030 --> 00:34:02,350
Now, about natural wines, yes, they were made in a natural manner.

534
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,760
And as Hubert de Vilain, who is asked so often

535
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,520
how he manages to make such wonderful wines,

536
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,640
he just says, we pick the grapes when they're ripe and do nothing.

537
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,599
Which seems like the right way to do it now, isn't it? Yeah, it seems

538
00:34:18,599 --> 00:34:22,360
like the right way to do it. But I think I'd like to bring up

539
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,000
a point which to me is absolutely

540
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,810
key, is that whatever the

541
00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:33,530
judgment of Paris did for California, and we all know what it did,

542
00:34:33,930 --> 00:34:37,450
it did more for the international world of wine.

543
00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:41,130
Because what it did was to create a template

544
00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:45,450
whereby lesser known or even unknown

545
00:34:45,450 --> 00:34:48,490
wines of quality could be tasted blind

546
00:34:48,970 --> 00:34:52,770
against benchmark and known wines of quality. And

547
00:34:52,770 --> 00:34:56,550
if the judges were themselves of quality, the opinion of the

548
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:59,790
judges would be respected. Yes. And that

549
00:35:00,270 --> 00:35:03,910
because it was held in Paris with nine judges, if it had been

550
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:07,350
held across a dining room in St. James's street with Michael

551
00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:10,590
Broadbent and Harry War, it wouldn't have had the impact.

552
00:35:10,910 --> 00:35:14,550
But it was an open Event and recorded in

553
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:17,870
Time magazine and then recorded in history. And

554
00:35:18,830 --> 00:35:21,470
that template opened

555
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:25,910
it completely level the playing field.

556
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:30,590
So that's the most important legacy of the

557
00:35:30,590 --> 00:35:34,310
Judgment Paris, in my view. Well, here's a. I'm glad you

558
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:38,070
brought up Harry Waugh. And this leads into two things I

559
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:41,390
wanted to talk to you about. But one of them is this is also from

560
00:35:41,390 --> 00:35:45,110
my father's newsletter. And a couple months, about a year later, this is

561
00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:48,850
Harry Waugh, and this is about Leslie Devante. My dad started two or three

562
00:35:48,850 --> 00:35:52,250
chapters of Lesmie Devant. And I want to talk to you about this idea

563
00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:55,890
maybe of a current version of things like the

564
00:35:55,890 --> 00:35:59,730
Academy Divan, or particularly Les Amie Devant, because

565
00:35:59,730 --> 00:36:03,330
I think that we need to continue to

566
00:36:03,330 --> 00:36:07,010
educate the consumer on what a value of a good bottle of

567
00:36:07,010 --> 00:36:10,410
wine is compared to the stuff they're being barraged with. In the meantime,

568
00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:14,650
this article says Harry Waugh, noted British wine authority, was guest of

569
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:18,460
the regional director of Lesmie Devante, where we

570
00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:22,180
pitted top Bordeaux in the five best Cabernet California

571
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:25,980
reds, the 73 Sterling, the 74 Stags Leit Merlot,

572
00:36:26,860 --> 00:36:30,460
as did the Spring Mountain 73 and 72 Heights Cellars

573
00:36:30,460 --> 00:36:34,260
Martha's Vineyard against seven French

574
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:38,100
wines, which include the 73 Lafitte, the 71 Mouton and the

575
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:41,820
73 Palmer. Like, wow, that's a pretty noble,

576
00:36:41,980 --> 00:36:45,800
pretty noble lineup there. But I thought it was very interesting that about a year

577
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,520
later, Harry was in Los Angeles holding something

578
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,280
kind of similar to what I'm supposing that the judgment of

579
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,680
Paris probably triggered many, many of these sort of face

580
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,560
offs across the country and across the world.

581
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,000
But what's your thought of that? You started Academy

582
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,800
Devant for the education of what seems to be British and American

583
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,400
people that were living in Paris and this

584
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:15,540
in the 70s. During this period, my father was around selling

585
00:37:15,540 --> 00:37:19,300
wine. The lesbian was very powerful. There's none left. I've

586
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:22,940
researched. I can't find any active chapters. Do you think it's time

587
00:37:22,940 --> 00:37:26,700
for some kind of formal, I'm not gonna

588
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:30,500
say formal education, but just a social education of wine for people

589
00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:33,660
to understand. I think

590
00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:37,580
wine's all about communication, okay? It's all about

591
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:41,990
communicating what is behind the

592
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:45,790
wine. The story, the people, where the wines are growing and

593
00:37:45,790 --> 00:37:48,550
so on and so forth. Without communication, without information,

594
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:53,829
a wine, it sort of can't really exist

595
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:57,230
because a wine can only exist to the

596
00:37:57,230 --> 00:38:00,910
drinker once it's in his glass. Okay? But if there's

597
00:38:00,910 --> 00:38:04,670
no information, if there's no story, if there's

598
00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:08,420
no you don't go to a movie until you've read

599
00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:12,100
the reviews and you know who the actors are, you know what the story is.

600
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:15,580
So you're all prepared for it. And

601
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:20,020
I think you're absolutely right. It's something like Les Ermes du Mains, which is such

602
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:23,740
a nice name. Friends of Wine. You

603
00:38:23,740 --> 00:38:26,700
form a club and you have recommendations

604
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:31,580
every month. You have. The wine merchants will be dragging your

605
00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:34,850
hand off to get on your list. And it could be. I think

606
00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:37,730
it could be wonderful. And I think

607
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:42,370
the ranking.

608
00:38:44,290 --> 00:38:47,570
I know Robert Parker is so the Wine Spectator, but

609
00:38:48,210 --> 00:38:52,050
all these wine reviewers ranking. And James

610
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:55,890
suckling, who gives 100 points as though Easter bunnies.

611
00:38:56,610 --> 00:39:00,450
I'll reserve judgment on that. Yeah, quite. It's got too

612
00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:04,290
far. It's numbers. It's numbers and money.

613
00:39:04,290 --> 00:39:08,050
Because the hundred point is very, very expensive. And that's not really what

614
00:39:08,050 --> 00:39:11,690
wine's about. Wine is about stories and people and about

615
00:39:11,690 --> 00:39:15,489
enjoying a glass of wine with friends. And wine

616
00:39:15,489 --> 00:39:19,330
can be $10. I mean, I read in the

617
00:39:19,410 --> 00:39:22,770
International New York Times Eric Asimov's

618
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:26,280
columns are very often reproduced. He

619
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,880
talks about under $20 wines, and he's just been talking

620
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,400
about Rieslings, which not many of them are under

621
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,840
$20. But I mean,

622
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,560
wine is about consumption and wine is about communication. You

623
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,080
cannot, in my view, have intelligent consumption

624
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,760
without communication. And so I think if you

625
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,560
were to think of relaunching Les Ami du Vi, a little chapter of that,

626
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,960
it would. It'll do very well. I'm very

627
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,160
interested in doing it maybe as a legacy to my dad, maybe as

628
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,760
wine world. You know, this is what's happening here, and maybe it's happening

629
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,080
in London, because for one, Covid has changed,

630
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,920
radically changed, I think, A, the consumption of wine, and

631
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,080
B, how we buy it. Because all of us in the

632
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,880
Internet world are experiencing a spike in sales, but it doesn't seem to be tapering

633
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,630
yet. And not only that, what people are buying from me are

634
00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:25,470
totally different than what they were buying pre Covid. I'm selling all the brands.

635
00:40:25,470 --> 00:40:29,030
Austin Hope, Camus, you know, Silver Oak. I can sell all those things now. I

636
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:32,710
couldn't sell them before, but the story behind what

637
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:36,470
I try to tell my clients, and the reason

638
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:39,870
I taste every Tuesday, I taste around 300 wines a month, is

639
00:40:40,590 --> 00:40:44,070
to find these little gems, these under $20 wines that are

640
00:40:44,070 --> 00:40:47,650
properly made, that carry a value, an ethereal

641
00:40:47,650 --> 00:40:51,410
value past the price and some kind of alcohol in

642
00:40:51,410 --> 00:40:55,210
the bottle. Right? It's the story, it's the conversation starter. What

643
00:40:55,210 --> 00:40:58,930
are we going to talk About. And you brought up this thing about natural

644
00:40:58,930 --> 00:41:01,970
wines. I mean, this is driving me crazy

645
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:06,130
because, you know, I got a

646
00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:09,850
salesperson. It's natural. What do you mean by that? I mean, what is unnatural

647
00:41:09,850 --> 00:41:13,350
about other wines that you're talking about? But

648
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:17,830
the biodynamic movement, I think, is very interesting. The organic

649
00:41:17,830 --> 00:41:21,430
movement. Well, let me say it this way. I have so many

650
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:24,750
winemakers that come here and say, I don't understand the organic. We've been

651
00:41:24,750 --> 00:41:28,550
organic by nature. I don't want my children crawling

652
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:30,790
around the vineyard picking up pesticides.

653
00:41:32,070 --> 00:41:34,150
Sure. I think

654
00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:40,010
it's very different between natural wines. Natural wines, what

655
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:43,250
happens in the cellar. Okay. Everything else,

656
00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:46,570
biodynamic, organic, or whatever you want, sustainable

657
00:41:46,570 --> 00:41:50,130
viticulture happens in the vineyard. And they're two incredible

658
00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:53,930
different things. And so I've lived without natural wine all

659
00:41:53,930 --> 00:41:57,770
my life, and I'm going to continue to survive without it. I'm

660
00:41:57,770 --> 00:42:00,930
against natural wines in principle because they get away with murder

661
00:42:01,570 --> 00:42:05,210
and as is Janice Robinson. So we, you know, we. I

662
00:42:05,210 --> 00:42:08,890
agree, we kind of tend to ignore them. I want to know what's

663
00:42:08,890 --> 00:42:12,250
unnatural. I mean, wasn't the addition of sulfites? It's natural.

664
00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:17,490
The Bourdelais started that how many years ago? It's a natural thing. It's

665
00:42:17,490 --> 00:42:20,930
natural chemicals. Now, I understand if you're going to put, you know, mega purple or

666
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:23,530
whatever they call that stuff in a wine to change the color. That's probably.

667
00:42:24,570 --> 00:42:28,370
But I think the

668
00:42:28,370 --> 00:42:31,970
original natural wines of the Georgian wines, which have always been

669
00:42:31,970 --> 00:42:35,580
defined in Amphora, know, 2,000 years ago. And so those

670
00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:39,980
really taste natural. But to use

671
00:42:40,860 --> 00:42:44,700
natural wine just because it doesn't have any sulphur is.

672
00:42:46,220 --> 00:42:49,940
Well, I mean, it annoys me. Yes, I agree. You

673
00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:53,260
brought that up. The caucus wines I've had a lot lately.

674
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:57,340
Armenia, which I'm Armenian, they've doubled in wineage from

675
00:42:57,340 --> 00:43:00,190
27 to 54 in the last few years.

676
00:43:02,030 --> 00:43:05,830
Most of them will not grow the French varietals. They grow

677
00:43:05,830 --> 00:43:09,230
indigenous varietals. Adeni and Sireni and

678
00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:12,350
Volskahat and these things you can't pronounce. But

679
00:43:12,750 --> 00:43:16,350
that trade has been around much longer than

680
00:43:16,990 --> 00:43:20,590
the traditional trade. What do you think about the ability of.

681
00:43:20,830 --> 00:43:23,710
I'm a huge fan. I was at a wine

682
00:43:24,190 --> 00:43:27,920
competition in Romania in

683
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,200
Kloof, which is just

684
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,680
Transylvania, which last year, and the wines are

685
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,920
fascinating. Now, of course, they do have Aligate, they have Chardonnay,

686
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,399
they have French varietals, but that's not their strength.

687
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,160
They do very well with them because they have a European climate.

688
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,480
But their strength is of their original

689
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,630
grape varieties, which I can't name now. And

690
00:43:53,630 --> 00:43:57,270
Italy by far has so

691
00:43:57,270 --> 00:44:01,070
many hundred, thousands indigenous grape varieties.

692
00:44:01,310 --> 00:44:05,110
And they're bringing them out of the woodwork to such an

693
00:44:05,110 --> 00:44:08,910
extent, I think Italy as a European country, I always, if I'm asked

694
00:44:09,070 --> 00:44:12,830
which is the most creative European country at

695
00:44:12,830 --> 00:44:16,670
the moment, it's always Italy for me. I mean, France

696
00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:20,490
is doing very well, but I mean, Italy is reinventing, is

697
00:44:20,490 --> 00:44:22,690
reinventing the past. It's going back to the future.

698
00:44:24,530 --> 00:44:28,370
There's a guy and I said about Armenia,

699
00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:30,050
you talk about even

700
00:44:31,810 --> 00:44:35,570
Bulgaria, for instance. I mean, I'd love, if I had my time

701
00:44:35,570 --> 00:44:38,930
over again, I would spend more time traveling around

702
00:44:41,250 --> 00:44:45,010
the backwoods of Europe rather than the New

703
00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:48,850
World. Yes. Well, it is fascinating. And they're coming here. A gentleman was

704
00:44:48,850 --> 00:44:52,170
here while in the conference room I'm sitting in last week from

705
00:44:52,170 --> 00:44:55,290
Artsakh, and he is trying to create

706
00:44:55,690 --> 00:44:59,210
a wine trail in Artsakh. Now, this is, you know, this is

707
00:44:59,690 --> 00:45:02,970
eight hours from downtown Yetavan, Armenia. This is not the, you know,

708
00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:07,210
but apparently he's got a spa type environment and he's creating

709
00:45:07,290 --> 00:45:09,770
indigenous wines and they're very well made

710
00:45:11,130 --> 00:45:14,170
once they get the technologies and the winemakers that know what they're doing.

711
00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:18,980
I mean, I think everything. He's creating

712
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:22,820
a story from a place. And

713
00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:26,020
there was a long interview about three months ago,

714
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:31,220
Fiona Tiemple of Le Pan, and

715
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:34,740
she's written a book which my Academy Divine library

716
00:45:35,060 --> 00:45:38,820
published called Ten Great Wine Estates

717
00:45:38,980 --> 00:45:42,750
of Europe. And this Frescobaldi and Torres and

718
00:45:43,710 --> 00:45:46,590
Gaia and so on and so forth. And

719
00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:49,310
Fiona said, when people,

720
00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:54,830
when people come to Le Pain in the cellar,

721
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:58,910
they're embarrassed. They don't like the

722
00:45:59,150 --> 00:46:02,430
put off by the whole technical aspect of it.

723
00:46:02,750 --> 00:46:06,480
They're happiest in the vineyard when I can talk

724
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,280
them through the story. And that's it. That's.

725
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,200
That really. That really is. It's the story. And

726
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,160
wine without a story is.

727
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,760
Well, here's something I tell people, and I think my listeners are probably

728
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,480
tired of hearing it, but I can't emphasize it enough. If you

729
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,080
go to the Internet and you go to Groupon and you get 15 bottles of

730
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,520
wine for $45. Yeah. And I know these wines

731
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,480
and you take it home and you taste it, you go, well, this isn't that

732
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,240
good. That's not a story. That's not an experience that

733
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:45,000
does no value to anybody. The same with these off,

734
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,440
not off brands, but these. And I have no problem with bulk wine. I have

735
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,640
no problem with private labels. You can find some very good values there.

736
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,960
But I had a blogger in my office, very well known

737
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,530
blogger, and she was tasting with me on a Tuesday. And I said, while

738
00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:02,690
we're waiting for the next vendor, let's open this bottle. That was sent to me

739
00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:06,410
from a competitor, which is pretty bizarre. But we opened it up and it was

740
00:47:06,410 --> 00:47:10,050
Beaujolais. It was French Beaujolais, it was real, but it

741
00:47:10,050 --> 00:47:13,890
was really bad. 16 at the time. And she goes, this is

742
00:47:13,890 --> 00:47:17,650
really bad. And I said, yeah, and they're selling it for like 20 bucks.

743
00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:21,650
But the problem was when I rolled the label over, it was from

744
00:47:21,970 --> 00:47:25,590
Saturday Night Live, the TV show. And I think to myself,

745
00:47:25,590 --> 00:47:29,150
some consumer saw something somewhere. Oh, Saturday

746
00:47:29,150 --> 00:47:32,430
Night Live. And I'm a fan, let me buy the bottle and I'll have my

747
00:47:32,430 --> 00:47:36,270
friends come over and they open this stuff up and they cannot say this is

748
00:47:36,270 --> 00:47:40,070
even palatable. It's just not good. And where's the story and the experience

749
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:43,990
in that? There was a story, but they. But it was a false story.

750
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:46,310
Yeah, I mean, I think

751
00:47:49,030 --> 00:47:52,840
there's a lot of hype. I mean, wine is. Wine

752
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,560
is sold well. I

753
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,400
mean, a lot of wine is sold with no real reflection of

754
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,080
what it's made, where it's made and what it's made from. So it's sold as

755
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,120
a consumable product and

756
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,640
the consumer needs wine merchants or

757
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,470
needs advisors like you. Back to communication. When I

758
00:48:20,470 --> 00:48:24,310
was asked years and years ago, all the time, how can

759
00:48:24,310 --> 00:48:27,990
I buy, how can I be really confident buying wine? And I

760
00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:31,750
said, find a wine merchant you can trust because you get a

761
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:35,510
relationship with a wine merchant or two or three, and they'll

762
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:38,910
begin to know your tastes. They're not going to let you down. They're not going

763
00:48:38,910 --> 00:48:42,190
to sell you something which is going to rip you off. So

764
00:48:42,350 --> 00:48:46,110
basically, it's a matter of trust and communication.

765
00:48:46,810 --> 00:48:50,570
So I'm glad you said that because that's what it's about, right? I mean,

766
00:48:51,210 --> 00:48:55,010
you have to have somebody that tries to understand your palate that

767
00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:58,850
you experiment with that you come to their shop. So here's

768
00:48:58,850 --> 00:49:02,529
this guy and they've written this algorithm so you can go to

769
00:49:02,529 --> 00:49:05,930
some websites and you can say, oh, I drink black coffee, I salt my food,

770
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:09,730
I like raw mushrooms. And all of a sudden they've built this profile around

771
00:49:09,730 --> 00:49:12,980
your palate. And I think this is a bunch of malarkey. And how could they

772
00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:16,580
possibly understand your palate? Through some simple questions.

773
00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:20,500
And I point to this example. The other day somebody came in with a very

774
00:49:21,140 --> 00:49:24,820
interesting campagna red Very volcanic

775
00:49:24,820 --> 00:49:28,620
soil. It was fascinating wine. And I thought to myself,

776
00:49:28,620 --> 00:49:31,940
okay, how would this algorithm that's supposed to be teaching

777
00:49:32,020 --> 00:49:35,700
somebody what their palate is even know about this wine? In other words,

778
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:39,210
where would they put this wine in the category that they would recommend it to

779
00:49:39,210 --> 00:49:42,970
you? How does that work? You ever heard of these things, these algorithms?

780
00:49:43,210 --> 00:49:46,970
No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I can,

781
00:49:47,050 --> 00:49:50,850
I can. I mean, there used

782
00:49:50,850 --> 00:49:54,010
to be a book written. You are what you eat. Well, of course, that's right.

783
00:49:54,330 --> 00:49:58,050
If you keep on eating Big Macs, you're

784
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:01,890
going to end up dead because you'll die. But I

785
00:50:01,890 --> 00:50:04,090
mean, it's. I don't,

786
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,800
I don't see how an algorithm, even with all

787
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,360
the artificial intelligence in the world, can tell

788
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,480
you what profile of wine you should drink.

789
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,160
Because drinking is a matter of choice.

790
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,360
You choose what books you're going to read, you choose what movies you're going to

791
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,200
see, you choose what you're

792
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,930
going to cook this evening, and you choose a

793
00:50:31,930 --> 00:50:35,610
bottle of wine. And it's a matter of, it's a matter

794
00:50:35,610 --> 00:50:39,130
of choice. What do you think of the

795
00:50:39,130 --> 00:50:42,970
packaging of wine now? I did a, about 10 years ago, somebody

796
00:50:42,970 --> 00:50:46,770
sent me and we'll wrap up with this. We're getting on an hour here. Somebody

797
00:50:46,770 --> 00:50:50,410
sent me about a year ago a sample of some Merlot from

798
00:50:50,410 --> 00:50:53,850
South Africa. It was in a 750ml plastic bottle.

799
00:50:54,490 --> 00:50:58,180
I kept it for some reason and now it's, it's starting to look like

800
00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:01,860
the food grade lining is separating. It's kind of

801
00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:05,580
disgusting looking. But I did notice recently in a

802
00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:09,260
local store that there was a liter bottle now of some plastic bottled

803
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:12,819
wines. And of course canned wines are out here. I did a big

804
00:51:12,819 --> 00:51:14,980
tasting on 75 different canned wines.

805
00:51:16,660 --> 00:51:19,980
I don't know, I have a mixed bag. I mean the one thing about the

806
00:51:19,980 --> 00:51:23,140
plastic bottles is you can put 36 bottles in a case

807
00:51:24,140 --> 00:51:27,780
had the same weight as 12 glass bottles. So from the restaurant trade on the

808
00:51:27,780 --> 00:51:29,500
house pour, maybe this is a decent.

809
00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:35,500
I have nothing against wine in cans. I think that is.

810
00:51:37,580 --> 00:51:41,340
And we drink beer in cans, we drink orange juice, all that kind of stuff.

811
00:51:41,500 --> 00:51:44,580
I think wine in cans, particularly

812
00:51:44,580 --> 00:51:48,220
25cl cans or whatever they are, is very

813
00:51:48,220 --> 00:51:51,940
good for the younger, younger drinker. And

814
00:51:51,940 --> 00:51:55,460
it's to hand, you know, you have a can of wine in your fridge, you

815
00:51:55,460 --> 00:51:59,140
pop the top. Okay, fine. I'm terribly

816
00:51:59,140 --> 00:52:02,780
against wine in plastic bottles just because I think

817
00:52:03,020 --> 00:52:05,340
good wine deserves more. Yes.

818
00:52:07,180 --> 00:52:10,660
And glass. But now they're making paper

819
00:52:10,660 --> 00:52:14,060
bottles. Yeah, Tetra Tech or they call it. Yeah, yeah, so

820
00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:18,740
I'm quite a fan of the bag in box, which has a

821
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:22,500
sort of lining. But, I mean, I think the whiskey boys have

822
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:26,300
developed a paper bottle with a screw cap.

823
00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:29,420
Yeah, they have that. Yeah.

824
00:52:31,100 --> 00:52:34,580
I'll tell you the cans I tasted, and some of them came out on top.

825
00:52:34,580 --> 00:52:38,420
I had appellated vintage Cabernet in a.

826
00:52:38,420 --> 00:52:42,260
In a 187. I had Russian River Pinot

827
00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:46,030
Noir in a. In a 250. Most

828
00:52:46,030 --> 00:52:49,830
of it of the 75 I tasted was over sulfur. And just like,

829
00:52:49,830 --> 00:52:52,350
oh, we're going to put it in a can, so don't worry about it. And

830
00:52:52,350 --> 00:52:55,790
I was unfortunate, but there were a few seller stars that were.

831
00:52:56,910 --> 00:53:00,350
They were trying to produce and put into the bottle. If they. And I actually

832
00:53:00,430 --> 00:53:04,150
had vendors come in and I would pour it in a glass for them and

833
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:06,430
just say, hey, what's your opinion of this wine? And they're like, oh, it's pretty

834
00:53:06,430 --> 00:53:09,030
good wine. I said, well, I just took it out of this can. So they

835
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:12,750
were a little bit shocked at that. But the plastic bottle, I think I agree.

836
00:53:13,710 --> 00:53:17,310
What's interesting was the plastic bottle I have, which is a

837
00:53:17,310 --> 00:53:20,950
750. It looks small compared to a regular 750 because the

838
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:24,510
glass is not so thick. So the bottles they're selling now are 1 liters

839
00:53:24,910 --> 00:53:28,590
in plastic, and they look like a 750 on the

840
00:53:28,590 --> 00:53:32,390
shelf. Until you grab it, you really can't tell. We drink water

841
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:36,110
out of plastic. We drink. That's true. That's the

842
00:53:36,110 --> 00:53:39,870
only thing that I. I drink out of plastic. Yeah, that's true.

843
00:53:39,870 --> 00:53:43,550
But actually, we don't. We don't drink water plastic

844
00:53:43,550 --> 00:53:45,710
because we have very fresh water here. But

845
00:53:48,110 --> 00:53:51,630
I'm against plastic and wine. Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's.

846
00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:56,190
There's still a value to the romance of the wine.

847
00:53:56,190 --> 00:53:59,790
I'm headed out of town this weekend. I'm taking a nice selection of wines. I

848
00:53:59,790 --> 00:54:03,390
have friends that are learning to appreciate other things than Napa Valley Cabernet.

849
00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:07,650
And I love sitting with them and popping the cork and pouring

850
00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:09,890
the wines. There's something romance to that.

851
00:54:11,330 --> 00:54:15,010
And I don't think Screwcap takes away the romance.

852
00:54:15,490 --> 00:54:19,330
Yeah, I don't know. The Australians have been

853
00:54:19,330 --> 00:54:22,850
on screw cap for 30 years.

854
00:54:23,010 --> 00:54:26,730
New Zealand, you can't even find a cork. New Zealand. Exactly. And I

855
00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:30,400
think you just have to understand that's part of

856
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,760
the package. I mean, I, you know, I can't

857
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,840
conceive of a bottle of

858
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,360
vintage Bordeaux or Burgundy or Charonneuve du Pape without a cork.

859
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,960
But I'm in favor of stove

860
00:54:46,039 --> 00:54:49,840
enclosures. I'm very much in favor of vinolock. It's more expensive. But I'm

861
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,400
in favor of stove enclosures because they absolutely do what

862
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,200
they say. They preserve the. They preserve the fruit. And

863
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,050
after 10 or 15 years, there's no variation and so on and so forth.

864
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,880
True. But I mean, I think it's. You know,

865
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,480
it's sort of. Certain people will frown on

866
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,920
serving closures, and I think. I think they're wrong. Yeah.

867
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,120
I think I love them personally, because my job is a lot

868
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,120
easier tasting 375 wines in a day

869
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,520
because I don't have to uncork them all. But.

870
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,440
I mean, you have Hugh Johnson, whose memoir is called

871
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,880
A Life Uncorked. He could hardly have called it A Life Unscrewed. Yeah.

872
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,640
You happen to be a London dry gin person. Well,

873
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,480
I drank gin in my early 20s to such an extent

874
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,280
that. Yeah. But I did taste.

875
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,680
I went to a gin distillery up in Yorkshire

876
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,800
last year, last September. And it was fascinating.

877
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,560
I mean, the purity. And we tasted five or six gins

878
00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:01,550
with different botanicals. Yes. And you've got to

879
00:56:01,550 --> 00:56:04,990
serve it with a good tonic. Fever Tree is a good tonic.

880
00:56:04,990 --> 00:56:08,510
Sweats is sweet. But I was totally

881
00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:12,270
converted. I remembered. And I really only drink gin now. And

882
00:56:12,270 --> 00:56:15,550
Negroni. One Negroni a year. Yes. I

883
00:56:15,550 --> 00:56:19,070
remembered why I was such a fan of gin, tasting

884
00:56:19,070 --> 00:56:22,710
that. That distilled gin, because it just tasted so good.

885
00:56:23,430 --> 00:56:26,790
Well, during the. My father was born in Cairo, and during the English

886
00:56:27,610 --> 00:56:31,450
rule, so to speak, he became a London dry gin guy and

887
00:56:32,650 --> 00:56:36,450
turned me onto it. And I can't. He poo poos every time

888
00:56:36,450 --> 00:56:40,050
I serve him something other than, like, Gordon's, because he loves the

889
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:43,690
juniper berry character. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna shock him. I'm gonna shock

890
00:56:43,690 --> 00:56:46,970
you. I think this morning I just received a case of this.

891
00:56:47,770 --> 00:56:50,250
And this is now Japanese gin.

892
00:56:51,370 --> 00:56:54,730
Ah. And, you know, of course, they've done wonders with Scotch.

893
00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:58,260
And the part that's a little distressing, it says

894
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:02,940
I can't even pronounce it. But then this is a batch distilled with the essentially

895
00:57:02,940 --> 00:57:05,460
Japanese and traditional London dry style.

896
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:10,220
So I'm thinking, wow. And it is very dry and very

897
00:57:10,220 --> 00:57:13,700
juniper berry driven. Yeah.

898
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:16,620
Yeah. Maybe I'll send you a bottle. I don't know if I can get there,

899
00:57:16,620 --> 00:57:20,100
but 135 degrees. So I don't want to take much more of your time.

900
00:57:20,340 --> 00:57:24,180
Mr. Spurrier, this has been a fascinating conversation. I know the listeners will love it.

901
00:57:24,850 --> 00:57:28,490
Maybe do it again. I do need to get to York and visit my

902
00:57:28,490 --> 00:57:32,050
nephew who's at soccer college and getting his degree in international

903
00:57:32,210 --> 00:57:36,010
business. And when that happens, maybe we can meet and

904
00:57:36,010 --> 00:57:39,690
have a Greek. Great. Well, I mean, if you come to London. Yeah,

905
00:57:39,690 --> 00:57:42,850
that'll be. Well, York is. Well, I mean.

906
00:57:43,970 --> 00:57:47,690
Yeah, we'll get there somehow. It is only a couple of hours

907
00:57:47,690 --> 00:57:51,500
on the train. Yeah, it's perfect. And you're how

908
00:57:51,500 --> 00:57:55,140
far from London? Oh, no, no, we're three hours in

909
00:57:55,140 --> 00:57:58,740
London. You are? Okay, well, I'll make a trip. We're a long

910
00:57:58,740 --> 00:58:02,500
way. It'll be worth it. Yeah. Such a pleasure having a conversation with

911
00:58:02,500 --> 00:58:05,820
this evening for you, this morning for me. Well. And

912
00:58:07,100 --> 00:58:10,940
do progress on the Amy Duva idea. I

913
00:58:10,940 --> 00:58:14,300
think that's. I really needed your opinion because

914
00:58:14,460 --> 00:58:18,290
I've asked a lot of people, but I trusted with you, in your experience with

915
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:22,130
Academy Divine, that I think the time is right. It's such a lovely name

916
00:58:22,690 --> 00:58:25,970
and it says Les Ami du Man, the Friends of Wine. I mean, what else?

917
00:58:26,050 --> 00:58:29,810
What more do you want? What else do you want? Salut, Mercia.

918
00:58:40,770 --> 00:58:44,180
Thank you for listening to Wine Talks with Paul Callum Carey. And don't forget to

919
00:58:44,180 --> 00:58:47,940
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. And of

920
00:58:47,940 --> 00:58:51,540
course, all these podcasts are sponsored by the original Wine of the Month Club,

921
00:58:51,540 --> 00:58:54,300
48 years in business. Don't forget to visit our website,

922
00:58:54,460 --> 00:58:58,180
wineofthemonthclub.com Folks, have a great time

923
00:58:58,180 --> 00:59:00,380
out there in the wine world. Cheers.