Exploring the World of Wine Competitions and Armenian Winemaking with Quentin Havaux

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Wine is not like a science. And you cannot just say okay for me.

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That's why I don't like to give just a score to say, what does

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it mean? 92 for me, 92 doesn't mean the same as you.

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For me, 92, it's just a score. It's just number. Sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul K. Hey,

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welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today, beautiful Southern

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California, broadcasting all the way out to

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Bruxelle or Brussels, as we would say in English, with

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Canton Havo. He's the CEO. And

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what other title do you have with the Concours Mondial de Bruxe?

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So I'm the director, the CEO of the company

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Vinopress. And Vinopress is a company organized

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concretemontial de Roussel, the cmb. I think for you it will be also easier

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to pronounce. Yeah, Vinopress. That's right. Your grandfather

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started this idea of WinePress. Let's go. I want to back

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up just a little before we get into that history. I missed you at Wine

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Paris. I got to swing by. I think I spoke to your father

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briefly. Was that a successful event for you guys?

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For us, it was a big success. So we are there and we are present

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for. In Wine Paris for the beginning. So like almost four

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years ago when it started. And for us, it's really a really

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good to be there because we are there with. Last this year, I

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think we were there with more than 30 producers only awarded by

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the competition. And it's really a good window for the.

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For the. On the international stage to be there as a wine competition,

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but also to promote the

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producers. You know, it's interesting. And I came away because

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I was. I did not feel well. Okay, I was,

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I was. I don't know what happened, but maybe on the plane. And

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so I was coughing and I was, you know, tired and things were aching. But

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I was able to podcast with a woman, she's a

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master of wine. Isabelle Legeron and

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David Laurent from. From Wine Tech, L.A.

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wineTech. But what I noticed when I walked around and I saw a lot of

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old friends, met a lot of new people, and I

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thought there was no other product in the world like wine, as we already know.

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That's why we do this. But every single One of those

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6,000 vendors sells the same

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thing. And so I thought, wow, how much

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competition is there in this industry? And that's just a small percentage of the people

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that make wine, Right? How important is a

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group like the Concour Mundial to

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promote a wine, to promote the vendors that make

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the good wines. In other words, how important is it now to have a group

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like yours? I think it's really important because this kind of even, I mean,

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competition, tasting, whatever you can target, you can nominate,

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it's really important to really elevate the talent of the producer

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because a lot of you have a lot of good, amazing wine in the market.

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But sometimes you need some people, independent people who will tell me,

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okay, what kind of wine do you like? But we want to

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be much more than a competition to only give award

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for us. We can maybe talk afterwards. We develop

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a lot of new tools to explain the wine to the consumer as well. And

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so this is something we want to also to provide more value,

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not only to reveal the good wine, but also

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to translate and to facilitate

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the understanding of the wine to the consumer.

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Because it seems like, I know you're on social media,

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I know you're on LinkedIn quite frequently. And you and I read the

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same things about, you know, the

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generations behind me anyway, that want innovation, they want pouches,

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they want cans, whatever they want. And I don't, I

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don't subscribe to that necessarily. What I subscribe to is what you're

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doing, which is elevating the appreciation

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for honest wine, real wine that's made by real people, for real

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production. Yeah, this is what we do. I think it's, I mean, this

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is what we try to do because for us it's important. You have, as you

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mentioned, you have so many wine, different wine also, and it's

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a consumer point of view. It's, it's really hard to understand.

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It's really. So we need the need help. And also that's why it's really

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part of this kind of event of competition for us to

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give the opportunity to the producers, to stand out thanks to

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the award or to the medals we will provide, but also

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to the feedback we can translate from the tasting because we

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have, for all the wine that has been tasted in the cmb, we

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have a clear profile of the wine. That means we know the aroma, we know

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the style of the wine, and also for that we can share this

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information to the consumer. And it's really interesting to

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provide this kind of information. I think it's valuable.

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And it's interesting to me too, because the other, the other part

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that bothers me about some of this press is particularly

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the younger generations. And you know, you're, you're

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a third generation. I'm a Second generation wine person

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and they talk about changing the language. Right. You're.

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You're. Your indigenous language is French. Mine's English. You speak English?

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I speak some French. But the language of wine

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is this is. I'm sure the way you talk about wine

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is slightly different than the way your grandfather did when he started writing

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vino. Yeah, definitely. I think it's really

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different. But also the. The way we present the wine. For me,

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what I have feel when I started in the wine business, it's

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okay. Why it's so complex. Why it should be complex because wine basically is

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just fun. I mean, it's. For me, it's like something. But you are on the

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table. Okay. You can, you can str. But it's really

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a fun something that you need to

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like to enjoy. You don't need to feel,

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let's say, intimidated by the wine. A lot

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of people and a friend of mine that when they go to the restaurant, they

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are so afraid to select a bottle of wine in the wine list because they

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don't know how to select it. And just because they don't know.

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But when the bottle is open, okay, they want

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to order another one. But it's just like this. I think that's also

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part of the. Also a lot of people say, okay, there is a

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deconsumation, but okay, at the end. Also we need to translate

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it to make it much more access accessible. So it's really important

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for me. I think that's true.

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But. And I have this reverse viewpoint because it

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is true. People are intimidated. They get the list. I can't tell you how many

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times it probably happens to you frequently. A friend of mine's at a restaurant that

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maybe they may be out of the country, out of the state, and they sent.

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They text me a picture of the list and they know

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that I understand their palate, what they like to drink. But on the flip

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side, this part fascinates me. Almost

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invariably, if I'm with new guests or even my old friends,

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a dinner conversation comes around to the wine.

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And it seems to be less intimidating at that point. Like you just

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said, once the bottle's open. Yeah. And you start talking,

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the intimidation factor seems to dissipate a little bit, seems to go away,

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and it becomes a really lively conversation about what you're drinking. And

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that intrigues me by forever. And every time it happens,

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after 35 years of doing this, it still intrigued me. But were you

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always going to be in the wine business? Your grandfather started vinopress. Was

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that something you. I know I Hope I will continue in the wine business. But

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I didn't start. I started to work five years in the bank

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in industry in the past. And there I learned. I learned a lot.

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It was really interesting. And one day my father knocked on my door,

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okay, hey son, what do you. Would you want

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to join the company and say why not? It was not

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easy choice. It was not. But no, I'm super happy for me

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to. It's almost eight years that

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I joined the company. So it's. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's new challenge.

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It's full of. I mean this industry is full of challenge. This is what I

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love. Yeah. Well, that's. Aren't the Roth

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Shields in. In the banking business so, you know,

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kind of the same thing, Right. Actually that's an interesting parallel. My

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father came to me in 1988. Wow. And was going to sell the

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company that, that he had started, which was a direct to consumer wine Club, the

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first in America. And he said the same thing to me.

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He goes, you know, I'm going to sell it unless you're interested. And I came

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and visited and worked with. I had worked in his wine shop for years when

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I was a teenager. But I said, you know, I think I like this.

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This has a lot of new challenges. And the DTC so.

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But it wasn't always a. A tasting event. In the beginning

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your grandfather just wrote about wine. Was he a critic? I will explain

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you the story. So from the big whole is all. Everything

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started so before my grandfather, he was a printer.

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He was a printer in Belgium. And one of these client

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was the Sommelier association in Belgium.

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And the Sommelier association they had a magazine

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that they were. That has been printed in my grandfather printing

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company. And then at one point they went

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off a lot of money and they couldn't pay for the printing.

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And how they managed to give the money back,

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they said, okay, the magazine is for you. The name of the magazine is for

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you. And so my grandfather started to have the

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brand of the magazine La Revue des Sommelier in French. And

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he started to continue to create and to edit and

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to start article, to start to be interested by wine, to

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travel and to do editorial for this

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magazine. And that's the way he entered

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in the wine business. And then after that he

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continued to organize a fair. We organized a big fair

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just before wine Paris, before

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Dusseldorf, before that we organized a big

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wine fair in Belgium, in Brussels. It was Mondiale de Bruxelles.

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And the idea was to create a competition

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to animate the fair. You know, Just like

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to organize a competition between the wine and the winemaker that participate

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to this fair. And that's why the company, the name of the competition is

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Concour Modial de Bruxel, because it was

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competition for the fair. When was

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that periodical? When did he start printing?

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Printing, let's say

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the printing was in the 80s.

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And so that was sort of the heyday of wine journalism. You know, Robert

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Parker and the Spectator was starting and an important

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part. And that's changed a lot. Have you

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seen. Yeah, a difference in what people are reading and what

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they want to read about? I think, I mean, it changed

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a lot because it changed the way also basically

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we read the wine Parker invent the score out

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of 100. In the past it was not like this. When we started

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the competition, everyone used the gold,

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silver and bronze medals. And suddenly after

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Parker, all the, let's say the British or the

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American critics start to have score

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of. Out of 100. And from all

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parts we decided to keep, to have this gold, silver

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and one gold. Because for us,

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we don't want to follow these trends of Parker and this, let's

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say new wave. Maybe we are wrong, but

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we still want to keep this. And we are one of

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the last big international, let's say

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critic of wine who still used

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this ranking of wine and not score out of

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100. So yes, definitely, Robert Parker and those kind

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of critics change the world. I mean, they change everything.

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It's kind of interesting because it's really not a hundred point scale,

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right? No, it's really like a 20 point scale. Because you're never going to

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announce. We think we score out of 100. I mean,

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because we need to rank and so it's normal. But at the end

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we don't, like for me, I don't see really a big difference between

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92 and a 93. What's the difference? One point. So

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for me it's just based on the other criteria and no

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one's going to, no one's going to announce that they got a 79. So it

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really is just from 80, 80 to 100, which you're, you

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know, it's a really interesting point you just made and I want to develop that

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a little bit for the listeners, the

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point scale. And I think. And I. Let me just back up a little

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bit. I tasted wine every Tuesday here at the Wine of the Month Club.

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And you know, between 65 and 75 wines for 35 years. And

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I remember distinctly seeing once a wine

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would win a gold or silver, a bronze medal from The Concour,

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they would put that on the label. And I used to see them all

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the time come through my tasting room where those labels are there, which is

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something really interesting, because that has a more

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impactful presentation than a circle with a

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number on it. Right? That metal looks good and it feels good

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in its classical doing. But the point I

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wanted to make was the scoring system's kind of weird. Here's a

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Wine Spectator right here on my desk. Because

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if, let's say a wine gets a 95, let's say it's the Canary island,

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you know, whatever. I forgot the grape they grow there. Let's say it's from the

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Canary Islands. It's really good. But it's a different

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grape entirely than what Cabernet might grow in Bordeaux,

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and that gets 95, too. So there really is no

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guarantee that if I buy wines by score that

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I'm going to like it, because those two wines are completely different.

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And. But here you guys have a standardization, not only the metals,

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but then you're talking about the character of the wine so that we can

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understand better. And this is, for me, the most important and

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the biggest advance we have done for the last five years. So now

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we ask to all the tasters to write comments, so all the tester.

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We don't ask them just to score it, score it. It's too easy. We

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know that we want them to really comment

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the wine. They have to write sentences. And then

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we have developed a startup in Bordeaux, like an algorithm who can

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understand this toast, comment, and destroy this comment

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in data. And then know. That's why we have data on each

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wine that we taste. And this data, after that, we give it

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back to the market, to the consumer, to the producer, to the distributors.

243
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And. And like this, you know, okay, this is a good wine.

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This is awarded. But you also know the style of the wine, because

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I am sure that. Because you can find, as you mentioned, like a super

246
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good weaseling with a bit of residual sugar. But it's not my

247
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style. I know that. I don't. This is not what I like, because

248
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I'm not really a big fan of sugar. But for people who like this kind

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of style, you can be sure that the wine is good because it has been

250
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awarded. But you. We provide also information

251
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about the style and the aroma of the wine. And this is really important

252
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in terms of consumer point of view. That's interesting that

253
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you said recently, because I was just reading that the state dinner that

254
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Donald Trump is hosting Prince King Charles

255
00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:56,420
with, they're pouring Riesling. Okay. I didn't know which one.

256
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:01,540
Well, you know what? I was, I was fascinated. I'm fascinated by the idea

257
00:16:01,540 --> 00:16:05,370
of wines in the, at not only the White House, but poured

258
00:16:05,370 --> 00:16:08,970
throughout the world at the, at that, at that level. Yeah. And

259
00:16:09,850 --> 00:16:12,410
you know, I have, I, I. There's a whole book on it called Wines at

260
00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:15,370
the White House by, by a friend of mine. And,

261
00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:18,170
but it's a, it was a Long island

262
00:16:19,690 --> 00:16:23,410
from New York recently, which is a good area for that. But I

263
00:16:23,410 --> 00:16:27,250
just thought that was fascinating, actually. Might have been Connecticut. Anyway. And

264
00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:30,970
then the Pinot Noir was from Oregon, which is of course a very well known

265
00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:35,050
district for Oregon Pinot Noir, but not, not, I

266
00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:38,650
don't think, the preeminent district of P Noir. And then

267
00:16:39,130 --> 00:16:42,930
there was a Napa Valley Chardonnay. But what's interesting, just as a

268
00:16:42,930 --> 00:16:46,570
side note, they didn't pour American wine in the White house until

269
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like 1960, 65 or so.

270
00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:54,210
It was all French. Okay. Through most of the, the growth of

271
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America. At that point, all the wines poured at the White House were

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French. And it wasn't until the 60s that they started pouring American wines.

273
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So let me ask you this. One of the, one of the

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marketing tools I used to use at the Wine of the Month club was we'd

275
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go to a fair, state fair, county fair,

276
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a food fair, wine fair, and op. Have a booth.

277
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And the largest tasting in America at that time, and I'm

278
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talking about through the early 2000s, was

279
00:17:23,330 --> 00:17:27,090
2,500 wines tasted and rated. And we

280
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:30,810
use that information to, to show off the wines that we had

281
00:17:30,810 --> 00:17:34,450
selected. But I read that somewhere that you're tasting

282
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upwards to 7,008, 10,000 wines. Is that accurate in one of

283
00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:41,770
your big tastings? Yeah, I mean, for us it's

284
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quite. So you know how we organize. Can I explain how we.

285
00:17:45,570 --> 00:17:48,770
We organize the tasting? So basically this year for.

286
00:17:49,170 --> 00:17:52,930
We receive around 7,000 samples entries. So.

287
00:17:52,930 --> 00:17:56,300
Wow. Which just for the next tasting that we will organize

288
00:17:56,780 --> 00:18:00,500
for the red and white, and basically each wine will be

289
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:04,140
tasted by a commission for at least five to six

290
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international tasters. All those tasters, basically

291
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what we care when we have to select them. It's about

292
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diversity because we are international and we care about the diversity.

293
00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:18,700
So around the table you will have different profile of taster.

294
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So we have international buyer, but for example, buyer for

295
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:26,150
supermarket, but also buyer for a small retail shop. You will have

296
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sommelier and you will have also journalists and

297
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people who really come from the market who really work on it.

298
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:38,230
And so the different Profile of TSL is really important, but also we will

299
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have diversity around the table in terms of nationality. Because I

300
00:18:41,950 --> 00:18:45,580
know that you like, as a people

301
00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:49,180
from America, you have a, let's say a national preference.

302
00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:53,260
But if you go to Asia, if you're in China, they have another

303
00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:57,100
national preference. So that's why we care about diversity around the table.

304
00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:00,940
So you will have four people or five to six people around

305
00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:04,740
the table. From five to six different nationalities with different profile

306
00:19:04,740 --> 00:19:08,260
of taster and the taste fully

307
00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:12,060
blind. That's really, for us, the most important is to be fully blind.

308
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:15,910
They just know the vintage of the wine and they

309
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:19,510
cannot toll. So that means that they have to score the wine by

310
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:23,070
themselves to write a comment and they score it and then after that

311
00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:27,030
they receive the average and they can decide if the wine is awarded

312
00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:30,830
or not. But for us, as we are in Belgium, in Europe,

313
00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:35,510
we have a regulation about the number of awards we can deliver. It's 30%,

314
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:38,590
we cannot go higher. And that means that

315
00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:42,830
if you limit the number of awards that a table

316
00:19:42,830 --> 00:19:46,550
can give and also because that means that

317
00:19:47,030 --> 00:19:50,310
all the wine receiving on the world at the cmb

318
00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:54,270
there is a consensus by a lot of different people from different

319
00:19:54,270 --> 00:19:57,950
nationality and different profile that the wine is good.

320
00:19:57,950 --> 00:20:01,790
That means that all of them went for a super high score

321
00:20:01,790 --> 00:20:05,350
to score the wine. And that means we can be sure that the wine

322
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reach international consensus and the wine really

323
00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:12,790
deserve an award per se. That's really, I mean, the key

324
00:20:13,030 --> 00:20:16,630
we do. And after that also we have a partnership with

325
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:20,390
a university in Belgium in

326
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:24,230
the statistic department. And they do a lot of statistics

327
00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:26,470
about the result. Because otherwise we,

328
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:31,830
for example, to see if one commission is maybe more

329
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:35,110
generous in terms of score because we have different

330
00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:39,470
culture. For me, maybe, you know, in

331
00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:43,150
Belgium, if you receive a 16 out of 20, it's really.

332
00:20:43,150 --> 00:20:46,870
In university is really like, we call it

333
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:50,870
grand distinction. So it means a really nice point. It's really one of

334
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:54,630
the top you can get in the us. Oh, interesting. Normal

335
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:58,390
that you would receive an it an it. It's normal. At the university I

336
00:20:58,390 --> 00:21:01,830
did an international exchange in Mexico and I received

337
00:21:01,830 --> 00:21:05,590
95, which is not super nice. It's good. In Belgium

338
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:09,350
if you have like 16 out of 20, it's correct. It's like

339
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:13,270
80%. It's. It's really good. It's

340
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:17,110
really the top you can achieve. That's interesting. We have different skills. I

341
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:20,870
mean for me, 80 is good. For you it's 90. So that's

342
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:24,350
why we use statistics based on the different profile. Of the taster, because we know

343
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that wine is not like a science. And you cannot just say

344
00:21:27,950 --> 00:21:31,440
okay for me. That's why I don't like to give just a score

345
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,640
to say, what does it mean? 92 for me, 92 doesn't mean

346
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,280
the same as you. For me, 92, it's just a score. It's just number. And

347
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,680
that's why after that, we do statistics based on

348
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,960
the profile of the tester, how we use the

349
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,680
scales and everything like this. And so after that,

350
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,730
I find that fascinating for a couple of reasons. One, you

351
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:58,930
know, they've gone back and they've done that same sort of statistical

352
00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:02,690
analysis with the judgment of Paris. You know, the

353
00:22:02,690 --> 00:22:06,410
famed tasting in 1976, which obviously at that

354
00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:10,170
time was much looser. You know, the. The standards were much different

355
00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:13,530
on how to judge, how to judge. And so they've come up with different

356
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:17,850
results of that tasting by applying some of these statistical

357
00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:21,610
models to see how it works. And I. And you did that already.

358
00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:25,390
You've already decide that. That's really interesting. Why,

359
00:22:25,390 --> 00:22:28,950
why Armenia? Why did you

360
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:32,750
guys. I. I know that you do like to choose smaller

361
00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:36,390
districts, lesser known places, but how did Armenia become on the

362
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:40,030
map? So basically, yeah, one of the big principle of the

363
00:22:40,030 --> 00:22:43,830
Komal de Brucel, it never. It never happen in Brussels, which is good

364
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:47,270
because Brussels, it's nice for once, but after it start to be boring.

365
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:52,040
So basically, so we are itinerant. And

366
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000
the goal is that we can also

367
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,000
introduce a new wine region every time we organize the tasting.

368
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,080
It's also good for emerging regions that need communication,

369
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,200
visibility, to promote themselves. So that's why we organize

370
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,560
the tasting in different place. Armenia,

371
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,920
it was not the first choice. I mean, we started to have like

372
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,480
a conversation with them four years ago, remember, visited the

373
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,320
country and I was to be on it, honest, amazed. It was really nice. I

374
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,920
discovered a full culture of wine, a lot of really interesting

375
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,400
wine in terms of great variety of people of

376
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,040
culture or story. And that's for me also the reason why we like

377
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,400
to be itinerant is to show

378
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,960
this new region of the world to the wine world.

379
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,650
And that's why it was. When I was there, it was obvious we need

380
00:23:47,650 --> 00:23:51,450
to organize the competition here to communicate and to promote

381
00:23:51,450 --> 00:23:55,210
the region to the world, because it's really, I think,

382
00:23:55,210 --> 00:23:59,050
something unique. You don't have so much kind of new

383
00:23:59,050 --> 00:24:02,570
place like this who has a so big story, but also

384
00:24:02,650 --> 00:24:06,170
so much of treasure, like a great variety.

385
00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:09,370
You have like amazing terroir. You have amazing.

386
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:13,600
It's crazy. And so, but you need to go there to

387
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,320
understand it. And that's why for us, it was really key to

388
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,000
organize an event there to really promote and to show to the people,

389
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,760
okay, this is Armenia. This is why you need to care about this country.

390
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,320
In terms of wine, it's amazing to me,

391
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,320
particularly through the whole Soviet bloc era, Georgia, Hungary,

392
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,720
Romania, they all went through the same. They all suffered through. And

393
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,760
a quick story. I mean, when I started with my father in the 80s,

394
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,360
one of the first wines that I was exposed to was a Romanian Sauvignon

395
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,120
Blanc, which when I did my research recently, he bought

396
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,200
when it was part of the Soviet bloc still. And I thought, I go,

397
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,600
wow, that's a pretty amazing deal that he would bring wine in from. From

398
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,320
Romania that when it was governed by the government. But it was an excellent value.

399
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,200
I mean, the price is right. But Armenia, to me and

400
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,040
having. And I'm of Armenian heritage,

401
00:25:08,140 --> 00:25:11,980
the progress they've made in the short amount of time since

402
00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:15,260
freedom, because they are relegated to making

403
00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:19,100
brandy and some fortified wines. And so,

404
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,940
you know, there was the. The vineyards were neglected because the quality of

405
00:25:22,940 --> 00:25:26,740
the grape wasn't as important. And all the different things that go along with. With

406
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:29,740
communist rule, I just find it

407
00:25:30,620 --> 00:25:34,150
stupendous that they've been able to move the needle so

408
00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:37,670
fast and get to a level of quality

409
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:41,390
that they have that's, you know, becoming world. You know, a

410
00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:45,110
benchmark of world quality. Yeah. But also what I

411
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:48,390
love, it's the technology, but they keep also an

412
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:51,750
identity, which is with the grip. I mean, for me, the

413
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:55,670
biggest advantage they will have for the future is the

414
00:25:55,670 --> 00:25:58,550
new. The grip, the irony, the vosque, that

415
00:25:59,860 --> 00:26:03,700
all those grip are really good. I mean, this is something also that

416
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,420
they are. And they are still learning. This is also what I

417
00:26:07,420 --> 00:26:10,980
like in this country, because they know how to produce wine, but they are still

418
00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:14,580
learning how to improve the yield or to

419
00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:18,060
better manage the

420
00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:21,860
vineyards. Everything, they are still learning about that. And that make

421
00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:25,220
me fascinated about how they will

422
00:26:25,460 --> 00:26:29,200
develop for the next 20 years. If you consider what they have done in

423
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,680
20 years, if you look for the future,

424
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,120
it can be like it should be a success story. And that's

425
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,760
why it's a really good time to be there. Because I think now it's really

426
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,440
the renaissance. We are really on the top of the wave.

427
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,360
And so it's good also for them to be

428
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,200
known. But because now, what I think they miss, it's a

429
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,900
bit of a. And knowledge of the public, because a lot of people, when

430
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:59,700
you speak about Armenian wine. They don't know that Armenia produce wine.

431
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:03,140
And so that's why they need to promote themselves. Also.

432
00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:07,380
That's an interesting quote. One of the shows that's being released

433
00:27:07,780 --> 00:27:11,220
by. By Civil Net, the group I was telling you about, we have four episodes.

434
00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:14,820
One of them is with James Tufakian, who owns the hotel

435
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:18,580
chain there and started a brand. And he. He's.

436
00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:20,660
The opening line in the show is,

437
00:27:22,670 --> 00:27:26,430
isn't it cool that we. We come from a country that. That no one's heard

438
00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:30,070
of? I mean, it's a. It's a negative that no one's heard of it, but

439
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:33,110
then it's a positive. Isn't it cool that no one's heard that we make wine

440
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:36,710
and that we can explain wine to. To the public through the

441
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:39,990
lens of a glass? I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it now

442
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:43,790
publicly on the air, that I don't think

443
00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:45,870
Adeny likes oak.

444
00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:51,660
I think I put the fresh one on

445
00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:55,380
the red fruit, and it's sweet. We agree on that.

446
00:27:56,580 --> 00:28:00,020
Sireni, the grape of Artsakh, I think, does really well with oak.

447
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:04,260
But here's. This is fascinating to me. Maybe you see this throughout your career

448
00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:07,460
when you visit these new emerging wine districts,

449
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:12,100
these ancient methodologies, like, for instance, at Voskavas

450
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:15,920
Winery, which we just released that show, they use, they. They

451
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,680
try to find the oldest katas. The oldest amphora. Yeah. That they can

452
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,440
find, and they keep finding them through different little villages.

453
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,240
And, man, I think those wines are so

454
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,120
complex and so telling of where they're from

455
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,640
and that. That it's that ancient method that's doing

456
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,400
that. Right. And I think maybe this happens

457
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,860
or maybe you see it or you don't, but it seems like emerging countries that

458
00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:45,580
are making wine, or at least bring them to the forefront of the wine

459
00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:49,100
community, try to rely on some of the

460
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:53,340
current methods, like lots of oak or new oak or new French or new American

461
00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:57,100
or whatever they're putting in their wines, only to realize later

462
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,540
that we should go back to where it used to be when. When this was

463
00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:04,940
burgeoning. You see that. Exactly. No, I fully agree. And also

464
00:29:05,420 --> 00:29:09,020
that's also that you can see that in the market, you have no

465
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:12,870
new producer who start. And to have like this, let's say,

466
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:17,190
use a lot of oak. And I think, but. But the

467
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:20,670
best one I have tasted there is really when they keep the

468
00:29:20,670 --> 00:29:23,830
identity of the grape. And this is for me. No,

469
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:28,630
I think they are learning and they're learning fast. I know that some of them,

470
00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:32,310
they still want for themselves like to have a premium. Premium

471
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:36,070
wine and premium for them it's. It's mean oak

472
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:39,430
and they need to have like at least two years in the oak barrel and

473
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:43,190
it's better and. But for me they still learning, but

474
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:46,790
they are learning fast because you can taste no new Irani based

475
00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:50,390
on just fresh. No just Karas

476
00:29:50,390 --> 00:29:53,950
or use also Antono. It's really

477
00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:57,310
nice to see that they can also

478
00:29:57,550 --> 00:30:01,150
produce really premium wine in this way. And not

479
00:30:01,150 --> 00:30:04,190
only as a lot of country do. When you

480
00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:08,350
start to speak about premium expensive wine. A lot of

481
00:30:08,350 --> 00:30:12,030
oaks, double oats sometime. And so that's.

482
00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:16,310
And that's good. And I think you mentioned about the carrots for them. For me

483
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:19,550
it's really interesting because it's really another.

484
00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:23,829
It's from. Because I visited Georgia

485
00:30:23,829 --> 00:30:27,590
in Armenia and you know, the KV and Caras. And for me it's two

486
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:31,070
type of wine completely different. It's really interesting to see

487
00:30:32,430 --> 00:30:35,620
that even if they still using kind of the same

488
00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:40,100
aging process. I mean the. The result

489
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,620
is not the same. And because it's two type of wine, it's really.

490
00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:47,620
It's really interesting. It's really completely

491
00:30:48,020 --> 00:30:51,700
different type of wine. If you compare Georgia and Armenia. And

492
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:55,420
that's also something really interesting, really good. What did

493
00:30:55,420 --> 00:30:58,740
you think of Yerevan? I loved your city. It's so

494
00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:02,570
dynamic. I mean the first time I was there, okay, I. I didn't

495
00:31:02,570 --> 00:31:06,130
know what to expect. As you mentioned, you arrived in Yerevan. You are

496
00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:09,970
always in the middle of the night. Of course, because the international flight

497
00:31:10,130 --> 00:31:11,810
arrived at 3:00 in the morning.

498
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:18,050
You arrived, you cross the bridge and then you arrive in the city.

499
00:31:18,530 --> 00:31:22,290
It's dark and then you woke up and the day after

500
00:31:22,290 --> 00:31:25,650
it was so dynamic. A lot of people. But what amazed me the most

501
00:31:26,050 --> 00:31:29,850
it was the number of restaurants and terraces outside. It's full

502
00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:33,530
and you can. You have so many really good restaurants,

503
00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:36,570
good gastronomy places. It's really amazing to see

504
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:40,930
the dynamic of the city and the people are always outside. For me

505
00:31:40,930 --> 00:31:44,730
it's really wow. I was really surprised and on a

506
00:31:44,730 --> 00:31:48,370
good way, I think. Well, I kind of liken it too because it

507
00:31:48,370 --> 00:31:52,090
is. And I've seen this in Hungary, I've seen in other countries that,

508
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:55,970
you know, the development of the culture is arrested, it's stopped. Know

509
00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:59,570
when the Soviet Soviets were there, they weren't allowed to express themselves.

510
00:31:59,730 --> 00:32:03,290
And so yon is sort of a mixture of. From the

511
00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:07,130
architecture to the path they're taking to. Like you

512
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:10,370
said, the restaurants are great. It's. It's sort of a blend of

513
00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:14,690
European progression and food recognition.

514
00:32:15,490 --> 00:32:19,090
But there's still that element, the old world Soviet

515
00:32:19,090 --> 00:32:22,940
bloc mentality. And it. Yeah. And I found

516
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:24,860
Yerevan. Absolutely.

517
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:30,420
What's the word I'm looking for? Just intriguing. Because you can walk

518
00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:33,940
till 2, 3 in the morning and you feel very safe. It's true. And I

519
00:32:33,940 --> 00:32:37,780
didn't expect that. Me too. Yes, we. Yeah, it's. And it's a

520
00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:41,460
mix because. And what I love also, they keep it in Antiti. It's not like.

521
00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:45,260
Because a lot of big city in the. I mean, in the. In the

522
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:49,100
country, it's like the same. You have like new building, you have like this

523
00:32:49,420 --> 00:32:53,180
big tower and you don't have this kind of new tower

524
00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:56,940
in Yerevan. It's like still kind of devening entity.

525
00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:00,780
This is something unique because in some big. That's

526
00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:04,500
what I like. Because in some part of the world, you arrived in the

527
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:08,340
main city and it's like the same as in another big city. But in

528
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:11,860
Yerevan you have this authenticity and this identity that is really

529
00:33:11,860 --> 00:33:15,460
interesting in terms of. Yeah, you like or you don't like this.

530
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:18,740
Let's. Big rock building.

531
00:33:19,940 --> 00:33:22,210
But it's nice. It's part of the

532
00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:27,330
history and the identity of the city. So for me,

533
00:33:27,330 --> 00:33:30,650
the personality of it, for sure. And also you mentioned the

534
00:33:30,650 --> 00:33:34,330
restaurant. I love the fact that they keep a

535
00:33:34,330 --> 00:33:38,090
culture of the restaurant and you have a lot of Armenian cuisine that

536
00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:41,850
developed also. You don't have only a

537
00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:45,570
pizzeria or Chinese food. No, the majority of the

538
00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:49,370
restaurants are Local 1. And this is really good, I think, for

539
00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:52,690
the culture and for the country. We were there

540
00:33:52,690 --> 00:33:56,090
2007, I was. I've been there a few times since. But 2007,

541
00:33:56,410 --> 00:34:00,250
this is how fast it's changed. You couldn't drink the wines

542
00:34:01,130 --> 00:34:04,890
and culturally you're required to say they're really good when you talk to

543
00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:08,610
the winemaker, but you couldn't drink them. Okay. And then.

544
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:12,330
And the restaurants were all identical. In other words, there was,

545
00:34:12,410 --> 00:34:16,210
even though it was all indigenous cuisine, all the same thing. They.

546
00:34:16,210 --> 00:34:19,900
It sort of tasted the same. But now you get this fresh take on

547
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:23,300
Armenian food as well as international character.

548
00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:27,300
They're bringing in chefs, they're bringing in winemakers that change,

549
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:31,900
you know, blend the cultures a little bit. Which leads me to this

550
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,340
thought. You know, you were talking about Georgia wines a little bit.

551
00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:39,620
And Armenian wines have the same issue in some cases. There

552
00:34:39,620 --> 00:34:43,380
are some very rustic, indigenous Armenian wines still.

553
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,480
Yeah. Of the character that, you know, the world's

554
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,800
just not going to accept or unless you're just A wine,

555
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,280
you know, academic wine person who wants to investigate these

556
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,320
things. But the modern take on their wines,

557
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,960
the expression of oddity, as you

558
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,240
and I discussed, with or without oak, etc. Is starting to

559
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,060
create complexity. Yeah. It's starting to create balance.

560
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:15,980
It's starting to create, you know, that volcanic expression

561
00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:19,740
that Armenia should be known for. When it, when it all said and

562
00:35:19,740 --> 00:35:23,220
done. Was that intriguing to you? When you start

563
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:27,060
tasting these, these like. Let me put

564
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:30,820
it another way. In 2007, I would have never poured an Armenian

565
00:35:30,820 --> 00:35:34,300
wine at my home. And now

566
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:37,860
I'll open a bottle and not tell anybody that it's Armenian wine. And they'll

567
00:35:37,860 --> 00:35:41,470
swirl it and sniff it and go, wow, this is really good. Yeah.

568
00:35:42,030 --> 00:35:45,270
And no, but for me, what I love in the. I mean, if you. We

569
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:47,870
can continue to speak about the irony, because for me it's.

570
00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:52,630
I'm a big fan of the Iranian and. But also it has this

571
00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:56,149
freshness and you have the red food and the freshness of the

572
00:35:56,149 --> 00:35:59,950
volcanic. It's really, for me, the quality is there.

573
00:36:00,350 --> 00:36:03,310
The only issue sometimes you have with Armenian wine is the price.

574
00:36:04,270 --> 00:36:08,110
And I know it's price point. Sometimes I don't. I don't understand how

575
00:36:08,350 --> 00:36:12,190
they positioning the price. But for

576
00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:15,830
me, it's to have all the standard in terms of quality, in

577
00:36:15,830 --> 00:36:19,510
terms of. For the world, I mean, for

578
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:23,710
international market. That's why it's really interesting. It's really

579
00:36:23,710 --> 00:36:27,550
fascinating to see this profile and it's quite unique

580
00:36:27,550 --> 00:36:30,630
because a lot of people ask me, okay, Arini, what is like.

581
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:34,230
A lot of people try to say, no, it's like a Pinot Noir. No, it's

582
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:37,970
not. It's not. But it's unique. It's like something

583
00:36:37,970 --> 00:36:41,410
unique. You don't. You cannot compare with other grip. And this is for me,

584
00:36:41,810 --> 00:36:45,530
really interesting. It is a fascinating thing.

585
00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:49,250
And you're right, they'll use Pinot Noir or

586
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:53,250
Pinot Noir Sarah blend as a character. And it's like, no, you can't say that.

587
00:36:54,770 --> 00:36:58,610
And you don't want to say that. I was. One of the conversations

588
00:36:58,610 --> 00:37:02,370
I had on this show was with Mariam Sagatelli and she

589
00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:05,330
owns the first wine bar you probably know. Yeah, yeah, I was there

590
00:37:06,130 --> 00:37:09,730
in vino. And she. Fascinating conversation. She's a brilliant young

591
00:37:09,730 --> 00:37:12,690
girl, a young woman actually, in the sense of.

592
00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:16,930
She has taken it upon herself to introduce yet

593
00:37:16,930 --> 00:37:20,730
Aon to the idea of a wine bar. But one

594
00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:23,570
comment she made to me, and let me reflect on this. I want you, I

595
00:37:23,570 --> 00:37:27,130
want you to go back to some of the other countries that you've hosted the

596
00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:30,620
tasting at that all of a sudden now there's

597
00:37:30,780 --> 00:37:34,580
a lot of brands and it's, you know, everybody's stepping up to the

598
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:37,820
plate and creating a label and they're creating brands. She goes, I don't know where

599
00:37:37,820 --> 00:37:41,460
we're going to sell all of these different brands. In other words,

600
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:44,540
there's not enough consumers here yet to

601
00:37:45,660 --> 00:37:49,100
have you see that in other parts of the world where these emerging districts,

602
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:52,820
everybody jumps in the romantic lifestyle of wine and

603
00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:56,100
we're going to all be winemakers and, and all of a sudden we realize it's

604
00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:59,830
business and there's a lot of hurdles to overcome. Yeah,

605
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:00,870
maybe in Belgium.

606
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:07,550
No, it's. What are they drinking in Belgium? No, in Belgium, though, we start to

607
00:38:07,550 --> 00:38:10,150
produce wine also decent sparking. And

608
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:15,110
we have new wineries every six months.

609
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:19,590
And it's good to produce wine, but at one point you need to sell it.

610
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:25,430
And we have the same issue. We are exact in UK also uk,

611
00:38:25,590 --> 00:38:28,990
they have a lot of wine. They produce more and more every year.

612
00:38:29,470 --> 00:38:33,230
But the market, it's. The UK market is

613
00:38:33,550 --> 00:38:37,230
not so big and so note if they need to sell it,

614
00:38:37,550 --> 00:38:41,350
you need to go abroad and you have to play the game and to compare

615
00:38:41,350 --> 00:38:44,990
yourself because it's always easier to sell your own national

616
00:38:44,990 --> 00:38:48,710
production in your country. And we have the same in Belgium. We have a lot

617
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:52,550
of new wine every day. But at one point the Belgian market

618
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:56,190
will not be enough and the producer will need to

619
00:38:56,190 --> 00:38:59,950
go outside of Belgium to sell it. And it will not be the same because

620
00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:02,430
you don't have like this proneness to drink national.

621
00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:08,270
And it will be, I think, yeah, we have it in uk,

622
00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:12,070
in Belgium we have this kind of new. We will face this kind

623
00:39:12,070 --> 00:39:15,630
of challenge for the future. You know,

624
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:19,880
I think there is always has been having

625
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,400
been through the retail side of wine and the direct to consumer side, and there's

626
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,720
a lot of pressure on wine right now,

627
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,920
but you see it all the time, how difficult it must be.

628
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,760
Let's talk about Armenia for a second. To introduce the world to a new

629
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,480
grape. A handful of grapes and Voskahat and

630
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,040
Kangun. You mentioned a few of them versus

631
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,850
growing Cabernet, Syrah, Merlot, Riesling.

632
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:50,650
Not only introducing the world to new varietals, but

633
00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:54,210
a new district. And here, here's my business side of this

634
00:39:54,210 --> 00:39:57,250
conversation, which is, you know, the, the

635
00:39:57,250 --> 00:40:00,969
Bordelaise and the Burgundians and the, and the Tuscans.

636
00:40:00,969 --> 00:40:04,690
They're not, they're not going to just roll over necessarily from a

637
00:40:04,690 --> 00:40:08,370
business standpoint and say, yeah, sure, you know, let's. We'll put you on the shelf

638
00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:11,210
and we're going to give you space in this, we're going to give you space

639
00:40:11,610 --> 00:40:14,920
in the arena. And it, it's,

640
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,840
it's a real dynamic, it's a real issue that, that

641
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,560
you've got big corporations that are commanding all this space at the

642
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,240
supermarkets and the restaurants. Yeah. Because of all the different things they can

643
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,880
do. And then you've got, you know, little Voskavas and, And

644
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,760
you know, Karas. Well, Karas is pretty big. Trying to come

645
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,320
in and find a spot, you know, it's just difficult.

646
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:42,830
Yes and no. Because as I will tell you, we organize

647
00:40:42,830 --> 00:40:46,590
also kind of event to introduce wine in

648
00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:50,350
the market in Belgium. So we are communication agency and we did

649
00:40:50,350 --> 00:40:54,110
an event last year for Armenian wine in Belgium just

650
00:40:54,110 --> 00:40:57,710
to give you an idea. And a lot of people tell me, okay,

651
00:40:57,710 --> 00:41:01,030
it's a bit expensive, but whatever, we don't care.

652
00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:05,030
It's something that we can use to surprise the client. Because now

653
00:41:05,110 --> 00:41:08,830
the client, the consumer, sometimes they are born to drink always

654
00:41:08,830 --> 00:41:12,230
the same. They need to have experience. And in the

655
00:41:12,310 --> 00:41:16,150
specific, in the restaurant, in type of restaurant and wine bar

656
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:19,670
because we have a lot of wine bar in Belgium. People

657
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:22,909
are there to have an experience. They don't want to drink the same wine at

658
00:41:22,909 --> 00:41:25,990
the supermarket. And I think they are to have a place

659
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:30,150
because it's something new, something unique

660
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:33,660
that people will use to surprise their client to

661
00:41:33,810 --> 00:41:37,530
bringing them new wine, new type of wine that they never heard

662
00:41:37,530 --> 00:41:41,170
and to bring them new experience, a new taste.

663
00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:44,890
And for that I think the opportunity for million wine is there

664
00:41:44,890 --> 00:41:48,490
because they don't have big volume at the date of today. And I don't think

665
00:41:48,490 --> 00:41:51,250
so. I don't think that in the next 20 years they will produce

666
00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:55,770
huge volume as France and Spain, as you mentioned, or

667
00:41:55,770 --> 00:41:59,620
Italy are doing currently. I will, I

668
00:41:59,620 --> 00:42:02,300
mean I will not recommend them to start to produce mass

669
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,780
volume, but if they keep on quality and something

670
00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:10,460
unique and local grape and I

671
00:42:10,460 --> 00:42:13,420
think they are like some

672
00:42:14,140 --> 00:42:17,860
niche markets, but there are place for this kind of

673
00:42:17,860 --> 00:42:20,700
wine in the wine business for the consumer point

674
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:25,100
today, because, you know, that's a really good point. I would

675
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:28,860
prefer to be wine producer in Armenia

676
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,760
that a wine producer currently in La Mancha who is producing only

677
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,600
volume and you have to sell cheap wine. And for me

678
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,320
it's. I would, it's easier to position a wine like this as

679
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,720
Armenian wine in the new market. That's

680
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,640
one new cheap Chardonnay that's without

681
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,400
any Flavor. Don't get me started on that.

682
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,960
That changed my entire business, you know, when those wines started

683
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,060
coming to America, you know, 50 cents a liter type stuff.

684
00:43:00,780 --> 00:43:04,340
But that's an interesting point and I think that's really valid. And that is when

685
00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:08,060
you use the word experience. And I mean, you and I do this every day

686
00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:12,060
and we have our. Like when I do these podcasts, I start

687
00:43:12,060 --> 00:43:15,860
to get a craving for something. And like the other day

688
00:43:15,860 --> 00:43:19,660
I had a. I had the representative from Cajah Rosa, which is owned

689
00:43:19,660 --> 00:43:23,300
by Chateau Gisco, and I was having this craving when I got home to have

690
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:26,860
a Giscore. I don't know why, it's just we do this every day. Maybe.

691
00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:30,710
But the idea that you just mentioned in Belgium or anywhere else,

692
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:34,790
that the consumer's looking for a new experience. And I

693
00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:38,470
think that's the saving grace of the wine

694
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:42,070
industry and always has been for thousands of years. And that is a new

695
00:43:42,070 --> 00:43:45,750
experience. The experiential side of wine is

696
00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:49,590
what keeps it interesting and going. Let's just take

697
00:43:49,590 --> 00:43:53,110
San for a second. Yeah. And this is something I'm really.

698
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:58,260
We are really confident that it works because I don't know if

699
00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:01,460
you know, Cocomol, we open already

700
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:06,180
five what we call CMB experience. So CMB

701
00:44:06,180 --> 00:44:09,860
experience is like wine, bar, restaurant. Well, you have only a wallet. Wine

702
00:44:09,860 --> 00:44:13,540
by Coco Mondial Brucelles for the consumer, we have two in Mexico,

703
00:44:13,940 --> 00:44:17,620
one in Milan, one in Seoul,

704
00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:20,260
in Korea, one in Benin, in

705
00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:25,090
Wow. In Cotonou. And there you have what we

706
00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:28,730
provide. For example, I will tell you how it's operated

707
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:32,370
in Korea. In Korea, in the market, the consumer, they love wine,

708
00:44:32,370 --> 00:44:36,130
but they don't have any knowledge about the wine. They don't know what is

709
00:44:36,130 --> 00:44:39,890
a grape and they don't want to know currently. So basically

710
00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:43,610
how we operate the wine list there the consumer can

711
00:44:43,610 --> 00:44:47,210
decide I want a silver, a gold or a one gold medal.

712
00:44:47,390 --> 00:44:50,420
And. And we provide them a wine list based on 3 aroma,

713
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:54,820
I want a gold with tropical fruits,

714
00:44:55,220 --> 00:44:58,780
a lot of freshness. And he start to

715
00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:02,380
drink. He like, he don't like. If he like, he order the bottles. Okay,

716
00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:05,700
fine, he love. And then he will discover what the wine is.

717
00:45:06,020 --> 00:45:09,860
He don't go to the wine through the appellation, the AU pay Aussie

718
00:45:09,860 --> 00:45:13,590
JP whatever you want. Or the older grape that he, he doesn't

719
00:45:13,590 --> 00:45:17,230
understand. And so he go by the aroma, by the profile of the wine.

720
00:45:17,470 --> 00:45:21,150
And then they like, okay, they will go and they will

721
00:45:21,150 --> 00:45:24,870
understand what type of wine is. And for example, in Mexico

722
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:28,430
as well, we provide, we have A wine list based on the aroma.

723
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:32,430
It makes like to the consumer a new experience

724
00:45:32,510 --> 00:45:36,030
in terms of wine consumption because they start to play also,

725
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:39,920
you know, in Mexico we have this wine bar and

726
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,560
so the consumer take this aroma list and

727
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,320
okay. And then when they have the glass in front of them, they start to.

728
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,160
Oh, it's true. I smell the pineapple. I got it.

729
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,240
And you provide something fun. You provide something interesting to the

730
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,720
consumer that he can start to enjoy. And this lot of wine

731
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,520
expert, maybe he didn't smell the pineapple, it's just because it was

732
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,330
froid and in front of him. But at least he play and he has a

733
00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:10,050
fun moment with his friend or with her girlfriend and they can play

734
00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:13,810
and the wine is not intimidating anymore. It's something

735
00:46:13,810 --> 00:46:17,370
fun. It's something that you can enjoy and you can. You can be

736
00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:20,930
relaxed to order. What an interesting

737
00:46:21,650 --> 00:46:25,170
perspective to be able to witness between opening.

738
00:46:25,970 --> 00:46:29,170
What you would think on the surface is the same store,

739
00:46:30,060 --> 00:46:33,780
but in different countries with different viewpoints on wine. And you have

740
00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:37,260
to adjust how you entertain that client

741
00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:41,660
based on their. On their culture. Basically. Yeah.

742
00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:45,500
Incredible. Yeah. It's really interesting because I know we are doing this

743
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:49,020
with what we call. We have created like a certification for

744
00:46:49,020 --> 00:46:52,780
restaurant who want to use this kind of materials.

745
00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:56,340
So we. We support them to create a wine list. We provide them for all

746
00:46:56,340 --> 00:46:59,980
the wine that we have in the database from the

747
00:46:59,980 --> 00:47:03,740
tasting. We provide them all the aroma that we receive from

748
00:47:03,740 --> 00:47:07,140
the command of the taster and we give them in a new way

749
00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:11,220
and we implement it in the restaurant. And it's so

750
00:47:11,220 --> 00:47:14,820
nice to see the reaction of the consumer because this is something they understand

751
00:47:14,980 --> 00:47:18,620
and they like to play with and you provide experience. And also,

752
00:47:18,620 --> 00:47:21,620
you know, the consumer, if

753
00:47:22,340 --> 00:47:26,100
he has the certification that the wine is good because it's a valid wine and

754
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:29,840
he can select wine based on different criteria that just not country or

755
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,640
region or grape. He will try new

756
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,200
wine. For example. No, in Milan. In Italy we sell

757
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,880
Bulgarian wine. But it was

758
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,440
for them to. Otherwise it would be impossible to taste a wine from Bulgaria in

759
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,760
Milan. I mean, they are producing massive of Italian wine there.

760
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,720
Why. But for them it's oh, nice. Tonight we had a Bulgarian

761
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:55,200
wine. It was a really nice experience. You provide them a new experience, new

762
00:47:55,450 --> 00:47:59,090
type of wine. And we did an. We did a

763
00:47:59,090 --> 00:48:02,330
partnership here in France with

764
00:48:02,810 --> 00:48:05,450
one of the biggest retailer to have

765
00:48:05,450 --> 00:48:09,250
250 shop all around France. Normally

766
00:48:09,250 --> 00:48:12,850
they sell only French wine. We did something with them

767
00:48:12,850 --> 00:48:16,570
during one month. We introduced wine list of 30

768
00:48:16,730 --> 00:48:20,250
international wine that we select by ourselves. Only allotted

769
00:48:20,250 --> 00:48:23,990
wine. We provide this information to

770
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:26,990
the client. And the client, even in France,

771
00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:31,150
loved it. I mean, we had Armenian wine, we had wine from Moldova,

772
00:48:31,150 --> 00:48:34,830
wine from Bulgaria, Romania,

773
00:48:35,550 --> 00:48:39,270
Italy, of course, all different kind of region. And the consumer

774
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:42,950
love it because it tried to have new experience, to

775
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:46,790
taste new type of wine that they never heard about the grape, they

776
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:50,430
never heard about the Regent, but they feel confident. Okay,

777
00:48:50,430 --> 00:48:53,950
because it's good wine, it has been awarded. But also you give them some information,

778
00:48:54,030 --> 00:48:57,550
okay, the style of the wine. Otherwise you will always drink

779
00:48:57,550 --> 00:49:01,350
Bordeaux, which is good. I don't want to do a polymaker around

780
00:49:01,350 --> 00:49:05,030
the Bordeaux, but you basically, you know what to

781
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:08,750
expect when you order a bottle of Bordeaux. You know, almost the style. But

782
00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:12,390
for me, the first time I would go to order a bottle of Mesquet from

783
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:15,640
Bulgaria, if I've never heard about miscat,

784
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,040
it's impossible. So I will never order this kind of

785
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,720
wine. But if someone introduce you in the way that you can understand

786
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:27,520
the wine, I will feel much more confident to order this

787
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,440
kind of wine or to buy this kind of wine in the shop.

788
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:34,560
You know, that's, you know, we're out of time. But I don't want to stop

789
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,320
quite yet because it's a very interesting thought because when

790
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,940
I walked around wine Paris, you know, everybody's singing the blues

791
00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:46,100
and about the issues with the wine trade, and there's a lot of reasons for

792
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:49,780
it. We don't have to appeal all back, but you know, parts supply, parts

793
00:49:49,780 --> 00:49:53,540
demand, et cetera. But this, this idea,

794
00:49:54,420 --> 00:49:58,100
you know, because wine is so experiential and we need to

795
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:01,380
promote that. And that's exactly what you're doing here, that

796
00:50:01,780 --> 00:50:05,580
by. By exposing the novice wine

797
00:50:05,580 --> 00:50:08,940
drinker. I'm trying to articulate this. The novice wine

798
00:50:08,940 --> 00:50:12,220
drinker can recognize that the two glasses of

799
00:50:12,220 --> 00:50:15,060
Sauvignon Blanc from two different parts of the world are different,

800
00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:21,460
but they don't know how to say it right. And they don't necessarily

801
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:25,300
understand how to appreciate the differences. And here you

802
00:50:25,380 --> 00:50:28,500
folks are, you know, creating the notes, creating the

803
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:32,060
documentation, exposing people through your

804
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:35,780
wine bars and through, for instance, your experiment in France

805
00:50:36,180 --> 00:50:39,700
to, To try these things. And all of a

806
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:43,380
sudden you're creating wine

807
00:50:43,380 --> 00:50:46,940
enthusiasts like, wow, that was so interesting. I never

808
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:50,780
knew these things. And you're right, because they're going to the supermarket

809
00:50:50,940 --> 00:50:54,740
and they see in America anyway, Josh or Apothec Red

810
00:50:54,740 --> 00:50:58,460
or all the standard stuff, yellowtail. And

811
00:50:58,460 --> 00:51:01,820
then they just buy it because they're used to buying it. Yeah.

812
00:51:01,980 --> 00:51:05,630
And I think this is. It's almost a Hand sell. It's almost like you're doing

813
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:09,230
it like one at a time. Yeah, but I think that's what it takes.

814
00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:14,190
And yeah, for me. And, and that's why we. A lot of people start

815
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:17,870
complain that the new generation, they don't drink wine whatever they want.

816
00:51:17,870 --> 00:51:21,110
But I think it's just that we have to adapt also the language, the way

817
00:51:21,110 --> 00:51:24,870
we present the wine. And that's also because if you speak to the

818
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:28,430
winemaker today, they will always, I mean,

819
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,360
it's always lasting. Go to wineries, ask to the winemaker to introduce the

820
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,680
wine. He will start to speak about the soil.

821
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,600
I mean, in front of consumer. Good luck. He will start to speak

822
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,320
about the aging process, age on leaves

823
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,120
or whatever. If the wine did the malolactic fermentation, if the

824
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,840
wine and the type of. And so it's something that it's impossible to

825
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,600
understand. I mean, from a consumer point of view, no way. And then

826
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,760
they will start to speak about the grape. And for a consumer,

827
00:51:58,300 --> 00:52:01,460
okay, but at the end, what is the wine is good and what is the

828
00:52:01,460 --> 00:52:04,780
taste of the wine? For me, what is the most important for the consumer?

829
00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:08,620
It's all the wine taste. And this is what we are doing now.

830
00:52:08,620 --> 00:52:12,460
And if it's good or not. And this is the mission we want

831
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:15,180
to do. It's really to do.

832
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:19,660
To facilitate the consumer choice

833
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:23,860
and not to simplify the wine in the

834
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:27,590
wine market. So when is. We're going to finish on

835
00:52:27,590 --> 00:52:30,990
this thought? When is CMB coming to America? Ah, when

836
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:32,190
America wants us.

837
00:52:34,670 --> 00:52:38,110
That's a good answer now. But one day we,

838
00:52:38,270 --> 00:52:41,950
I, we had this conversation several times to organize the

839
00:52:42,110 --> 00:52:45,590
Sauvignon selection. So we have one

840
00:52:45,590 --> 00:52:49,350
competition only for Sauvignon Blanc to go in

841
00:52:49,350 --> 00:52:53,100
California. But it was not. But one day we will

842
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:56,860
come. I want to. We're here, we're here. Got

843
00:52:56,860 --> 00:53:00,100
a studio. Love to see you in Los Angeles. Anyway,

844
00:53:00,660 --> 00:53:04,300
it's a, it's a, it's a. We're in a bit of an

845
00:53:04,300 --> 00:53:06,980
upheaval. There's a lot of problems here in the wine world. There's been a lot

846
00:53:06,980 --> 00:53:10,660
of consolidation. Distributors have gone out of business. They've merged together.

847
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:15,340
The hospitality, you know, we. I was talking to a restaurant tour

848
00:53:15,340 --> 00:53:18,960
last week and. And his bottle sales are off

849
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,600
30%, you know, and that's

850
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,280
when you consider that wine and liquor, the part of

851
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,480
the, the part of the check, you know, the part of the.

852
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,000
Is the margins are in the, the wine

853
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,520
and the liquor. And if you're off 30% in that department,

854
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,360
you know, You. It's a, it's a tough, it's a tough environment, but

855
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,190
I think it's going to settle down, I think. And I had

856
00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:49,070
this thought and we'll finish with this. I already said this, but we'll finish again.

857
00:53:49,230 --> 00:53:53,030
I think every generation, whether it's Gen Z's, millennials, baby

858
00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:56,190
boomers, my parents generation, eventually

859
00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:59,230
and some later in their lives than earlier,

860
00:54:00,509 --> 00:54:03,950
understand what wine becomes in their life as part of their

861
00:54:03,950 --> 00:54:07,150
lifestyle. And it has unique

862
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,600
contribution to a lifestyle that it just takes some

863
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,200
generations longer to get there. Yeah. And also I think

864
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,680
it's part of the, the industry to reinvent himself,

865
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,120
to provide new experience. I mean, no, I, I mean I, I saw

866
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,880
in so many place, new festival, new place with a

867
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,560
lot of young people and they are drinking wine everywhere. And I

868
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,370
mean it just also up to us to, to change also

869
00:54:36,370 --> 00:54:40,170
and to. But I'm convinced that the young people, the new

870
00:54:40,170 --> 00:54:43,930
generation, they love wine. They love wine, they want to drink wine

871
00:54:43,930 --> 00:54:47,730
and we just need to bring the wine and to

872
00:54:47,730 --> 00:54:51,490
speak to them in a good way. And that's why. But it will come

873
00:54:51,490 --> 00:54:55,210
for me, I'm not so pessimist. Of course there are big trend

874
00:54:55,210 --> 00:54:58,690
about the alcohol consumption which is not,

875
00:54:58,850 --> 00:55:02,610
which is not good or not. I think in terms of wine,

876
00:55:03,020 --> 00:55:06,860
I'm sure that the consumer, the new generation, they are still

877
00:55:06,860 --> 00:55:10,540
there, they still want to drink wine and we just need to also to

878
00:55:10,540 --> 00:55:13,660
change and to adapt the way we will offer the wine to them.

879
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:19,300
There's a. I know you're aware of this, but I thought it was really interesting

880
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:22,300
and I had her on the show not too long ago. Pauline, vicar

881
00:55:22,860 --> 00:55:26,580
from the think tank out of

882
00:55:26,580 --> 00:55:30,340
Chateauneuf du Pape I think is in the Rhone. And this, the

883
00:55:30,340 --> 00:55:33,500
name, the name of it is Odd and E. Global. Yeah,

884
00:55:34,860 --> 00:55:38,100
right. You know, you know the group. I thought that was fascinating. Anyway, it's such

885
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:41,460
an honor to sit with you and chat about the industry. We ran out of

886
00:55:41,460 --> 00:55:45,260
time and I, I was invited to judge by

887
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:49,260
Zara Muradian but I'm going to be on a two

888
00:55:49,260 --> 00:55:52,980
week trip to Ireland before, just before like until the

889
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:55,980
19th or 20th and I just, I couldn't convince

890
00:55:56,460 --> 00:56:00,260
Mrs. Callum Carrion to, to hop on a plane to get to

891
00:56:00,260 --> 00:56:03,480
Y. But I'm going to continue with,

892
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,000
with what I'm doing with the trade and the press and the media to

893
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,800
get not only Armenia but other regions of the world

894
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,240
into the, you know, the, the phones and the

895
00:56:17,319 --> 00:56:21,000
videos of the consumer and try and tell

896
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,560
a story that's different. Than what you just talked about, the soil and the

897
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,200
malolactic fermentation and the grapevine. I mean, who can

898
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,880
understand that? But there's passion like you, there's people

899
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,720
like you, your father, your grandfather, that are in this industry,

900
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,800
that make the industry, and that's what we need to tell the stories about. So

901
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,240
congratulations on everything

902
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:48,000
and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of

903
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,760
Yerevan. Yeah, you follow us on the social media, you will see

904
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,480
a lot of picture and video and let's keep in contact for the future

905
00:56:55,910 --> 00:56:59,670
to maybe you can take part one event we organize.

906
00:57:00,390 --> 00:57:03,030
Love to do it. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you very much.