Wine Industry Insights: Hospitality, Consumer Trends, and the Power of Storytelling

0:00 I can't figure out why the wine industry is so resistant to following good models and other categories. Like we don't have to reinvent the wheel on what we do in a lot of this. It's like look at other areas of business that do things well. You can adapt a lot of that to wine. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Key, the guy that did taste 100,000 wines and all by himself sold 17 million bottles in the direct to consumer world of wine. But not why we're here. Here to have a conversation with Susan Castrava. Haha. Got it right. That is correct.

0:44 She is the retired editor of the Wine Enthusiast magazine, one of the great periodicals of our industry, as well as now a content creator and content strategist for the wine industry, which we need desperately in this industry. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Already? What's that? Did I say welcome already? No, I don't think so. Okay, good. Thank you. You know, when we, when I search around looking for interesting guests to put on the show and sort of tell the story of what's going on in our trade and so much has changed in our industry and it seems to always be in change, but really last five to 10 years has been dramatically changed. I don't think it's a whole lot different than most consumer industries because of the way marketing's done, Internet socializing, et cetera. But one of the things that you and I were talking about early on in this conversation was the DTC direct consumer world. And I think you were speaking at an event that I was desperately trying to get to but didn't have the opportunity. But since I come from that world and did all of my sales direct the consumer from standing at a booth in 1988 to trying to pitch and handshake each customer, to, you know, prolific email marketing where I sent 33 million emails my last full year. Tell me about that conference and what, you know, what the objective of that conference is. I mean, I think the objective of the conference, this is my first year being involved. It was actually my first year attending. I was

2:15 really flattered to be asked to speak. It's really just tools and practical understanding of how to reach new consumers. So it's as much of a, I would say tools and practical sort of advice driven conference as it is understanding what the challenges are. And of course this was last January. There was a lot to talk about initially with all the headwinds that we have seen. And, and so my particular presentation was absolutely outlining some of those challenges, but then just looking at what I consider to be some pretty somewhat easy, practical ways of approaching in particular the messaging around wine and how to reach, you know, existing consumers and keep them engaged in wine and not running off necessarily to all the other categories that are doing a great job of talking to them, but bringing some new people in as well. And I think, you know, there you can get into very deep and expensive approaches for doing this, but sometimes it's just understanding, you know, stepping back and understanding a little bit more about how to talk to people about this topic. And I think it's very easy to forget how to do that when you're so deep in it. So that's. Well, yes, you get certainly very easy to get mired in it. And I.

3:38 And reference a couple of failures that have occurred in the last few years, but certainly I always talk about this with, with people. You can chase these metrics and you can, you can chase your roas and you can trace your return on investment. You can trace your conversion rates and you know, we had great conversion rates at 1 of the month, but I don't know why. And that's really the issue why, like you, you can, it'll tell you there's a problem, but it doesn't tell you how to solve the problem when you chase these things. And it's the, it's the misnomer of digital marketing. We have all the information, information we want, but accept the why. But when you talk about places like Wink, $250 million going out of business, Finish Wine Estates, which, which deliberately and heavily got into the direct consumer on all fronts to shore up the business, you know, failed.

4:29 When I sold my company, one of the, the buyer was referencing another direct to consumer company which he in his opinion thought was just killing it when reality is it went out of business as well soon after that conversation. How do we, how do we. How is it different then from, for instance, the day you spoke, which was about a year ago, to even today? Have you seen changes since then? I mean, I think it's a really good, important point that you just made, which is, you know, the perspective on this. It can't only be stats and data and numbers. I think sometimes it's a matter of having some intuition. It's, it's anecdotal.

5:12 It's getting out from behind our desks and, and getting out into the world and seeing how people are actually interacting with these products, which a lot of people forget to do. Certainly many years as an editor, I used to tell my editorial team, please get out, go to a wine bar and see what people are actually doing in person. It's okay to stalk a little bit, listen to what they're ordering and what they're asking, because I think, you know, so anyway, the. So that said, one of the things I think that we've recently kind of seen with some of the data that's come out with the iswr, et cetera is I thought, you know, we're really concerned about decreasing consumption. I don't know that it's decreasing at the same level that we thought it was. So. But I think it's the way people are drinking and what they're drinking has changed.

6:03 You know, I said last year or the beginning of this year, quality over quantity necessarily, you know, is, has been a focus. But the other things that, that we're seeing is, you know, people are drinking more casually in settings like at home and non formal spaces, restaurant, you know, attendance, restaurant use. We know that it's very expensive to go out right now, so we're just seeing a little bit more of that shift. And then one of the other things I've been seeing that I think is really interesting is the growing consumption in these less saturated markets. So not that we should be super surprised, but India, China, I think Brazil and South Africa, these were some of the areas that, just from a perspective of where wine consumers are and where they're looking for new brands and new knowledge that I thought that was pretty interesting and encouraging to see that the data supports that growth is happening in these areas.

7:00 I have a good friend that owns Chateau Canon Chenault out of the Lalande Pomerol and we visited last year. He wanted to get in the United States market. He's complete a barrier to get into the market here in Southern California, particularly Southern California, because no distributors are taking on new brands. Bordeaux suffering a little bit, but he moved himself and his family to Singapore. Yeah. And now all I hear from our success stories, yeah, first class cabin in Singapore, Air being part of the embassy, the American embassy there for a special event. And I'm like, wow, you know, that has changed his outlook on life, that's for sure. And let alone, you know, sales consumption. But you said something important. I mean, it has to start in the bottle. And this is an important piece of what's going on on LinkedIn and all the sort of social channels is, you know, we need to be more innovative, which I'm not sure if that made means. Exactly. But it just seems like every generation has its approach to wine. And certainly consumerism has changed so radically with the Internet and now.

8:06 I mean, just think about Facebook in the last 10 years. You didn't go to Facebook 10 years ago to buy stuff. No. You went there to socialize. Yep. And the idea that you would expect somebody to click away from chatting with their friends to buy something was absurd. It was worthless. And now that's almost all what it is. Or Instagram as well. Yeah. So it seems to me it has to start in the bottle. It has to be something that people are going to want to come back to. Or maybe it's the word is to be intrigued with, to do it again. Right. When you say starts in the bottle, do you mean just in creating products people are interested in, want, or do. You mean quality of juice in the bottle? Yeah, I mean, I think that's something. When I say. Yeah, as I said, quality over quantity. I think that consumers, they have the advantage or not disadvantage, but, you know, they have the, they have a. An excess of product available to them now. And I think they're much more sophisticated than they used to be. They, they just, as a baseline, expect it to be good and drinkable. It sounds silly and we laugh about it. You know, obviously we've always wanted that, but I just think that that that has to be the default. I talk a lot with people about that. You know, I can't help you if you don't have a good product. It has to start there. It has to be drinkable and good, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be. But then when you start to go beyond that, you know, obviously I think the

9:37 palette has changed to some extent. I hate to get too deep into that because I think again, we, we make assumptions about consumers, you know, in the US and beyond that are. Sometimes we get ahead of ourselves. I do think the style has changed, people's palates have changed. They expect more refined product. They know when it's not right. They know when it doesn't. When it tastes. You know, when it's, when it tastes like it's, it's either cheap or it doesn't have integration. People know it and they just don't get it again. So I think quality has to be there. And increasingly quality that is recognized, you know, beyond just a basic, basic level. I might. My general advice. And I don't, I don't. I mean, I put myself as a consultant because I did it for so long, but I don't seek clients in that regard. But I certainly have conversations like this is. I've been just telling most of the brands that do make honest wine, honest glass of wine that reflects something that has a story to tell that to stay the course that this is. Yeah, this, this th. This will change. Wine's agricultural.

10:50 It shifts in based on sometimes just volume and availability of the grapes. And it has always been an eb and flow in our industry for inventory. Yeah, you know it just look at sideways did to the industry. Right. I mean it just clobbered Merlot and you couldn't find Pinot Noir at a price to save your life at that time. So it's pretty, pretty volatile that way. Yes. What kind of like have you. When you talk to consultant and you do these presentations, have you seen some success stories from wineries taking the bull by the horns and testing and finding avenues that help them, you know, find their clients? Yeah, I mean it really depends again on the, on the size of the organization and you know, what kind of resources financially they have behind them. But a lot of, and again a lot of what I talked about dtc, you don't have to spend tons of money to just message things appropriately. And I think, I think what I'm seeing is more wineries are recognizing how important that messaging is. Again, number one, you need good juice in the bottle. That has to happen.

12:01 You know. Number two, I think with a lot of wineries having that personal connection again, a family story that is real, is authentic, isn't, you know, manufactured somewhere is also important. And then it's how do I get my message out and how important is that? And I don't obviously it sounds self serving to say really people should work with more people like me to communicate. Whether it's working with somebody or just focusing your efforts, you need to be able to tell your story not only in materials that you put out, but also your team needs to be able to tell your story in a way that's consistent. But I agree it doesn't need to be a manufactured thing. I don't like working with people like that. I have no interest in it. I don't actually think that works anymore. We've seen, we've seen these sort of marketing brands get pushed out into our industry and what has happened there, in most cases it hasn't been the success story they'd hoped for. I think authenticity matters.

13:01 And so yeah, I have seen some really great success stories with, with smaller brands believing in their story, believing in what they're doing and then Talking about it. And it's amazing how, you know, much that can actually impact people's awareness of what they're doing and support of their brand. Are you trying to tell me that the TV reality star, she's since passed and sadly Big Ange. And it was brought to me that she had this Prosecco line and when they brought them, they were like neon colored and flavored with whatever, mango and blueberry and stuff. And I'm like, oh, so that you think this is gonna, you think this has staying power? You know, like I. And I unfortunately took it on because I was doing the distributor a favor because they had done me a favor and I was embarrassed, you know, to put it out there. But it was business at that point. And so those things never have worked.

14:00 Generally, celebrity, not celebrity wines can work if they actually are celebrity wines, but celebrity endorsed wines where there's just a 30% cut, tend not to work. But I had people come in here too, and pitch packaging changes that they thought. One woman even suggested that Lafitte Rashild would come in a can one day. Wow. And these seem to be innovation in our trade, but sort of misguided in that they're more interested in building a brand so they could sell the brand and become that next billionaire that's in the industry or the next skinny, skinny girl Margarita versus putting on the street a product, a product of quality that tells, that actually in itself tells a story.

14:51 Right. I see a lot of that. And I, I just did a thing and you mentioned something important because it takes the resources to do this. And I just posted a piece from a Shovel Blanc interview I did, and he talks about like, you're gonna lose if you're gonna take on the current marketability of a, of a beverage. Let's take non alk for a second. What have you seen in the non alk world as it growing still, or is this sort of still growing? You know, I think there's, there's still some question as to quality, you know, and what that, what that, what those products are actually going, what they do for the consumer. You know, I think I've always felt it's, it's pretty tough, I think, to, to recreate the exact or similar experience that a wine with alcohol has with a non alcohol or de alcoholized wine. But I think, you know, I think that the products are getting better. There is definitely an interest in them whether it's, you know, again, non elk wine or whether it's non elk as well as non elk spirits.

16:02 And, you know, Beer is pretty far along in this category anyway. So I anecdotally see it and the data supports that there's a growing interest in consuming these products. I'm still waiting for the really, really great dealcoholized wine products or non elk wines. I haven't. There are a few that I can drink and I can support and tell people to drink, but I don't think we're quite there yet. I think we're further along in beer and I think in spirits it's not going anywhere. I think fundamentally, maybe I'm a romanticist, but I think it fundamentally is divergent from what wine is and should be that intellectual part of a meal.

16:49 And I certainly understand people that don't need to drink or have physical issue. But let's talk about what you just said. The. And the idea of waiting for that brand that actually represents. I'm not sure what it's to represent, but isn't the concept of the alkalization wine in itself, the way it's made gonna. Going to restrict the quality that it can come out of it? Because just for the listeners, you know, they deal the wine, they have to make the wine. So you start with good grapes, you have to start with good juice. At least a think you're going to get a palatable product and then take the alcohol out and that ends up being more than the 14% alcohol. It ends up being about 30% of the volume. You can't live with that. So we put something back in to get the volume back to where we need it. And that's either water and flavoring agents. So it almost seems by nature we're not going to get to a point where.

17:43 I don't know, maybe what. Maybe we're thinking we're going to get to a point where the wine. Where this d alk wine expresses something. Yeah, I guess that's more of what. I guess that's a better way of putting it because I. You're right. I. I don't know, given what necessarily needs to happen, that you'll ever have something that you can compare in the same way. So that's probably unrealistic, but I think I'd like to see just maybe a better understanding of how to create expression in that product. I don't. Because a lot of it really does taste just sort of slightly watered down. And. And I. You know, I. I also think a big part of what people are looking for beyond someone who chooses not to or cannot drink is the experience of. Right. I mean. And I talk a lot about this. There's, you know, what's in the glass and then there's everything around that, which is the environment, the social aspect of pouring something like that and sitting together with somebody, whether you're talking about the product itself or you're just in this environment where it feels like I'm relaxing, I'm doing something enjoyable. So I think it can be very. Already there can be. It can provide that. You know, I think it's hard for people who have chosen not to drink sometimes to be in a social environment. And everyone's, you know, has something nice in their glass and they're sort of like, well, I'm drinking, you know, water and fruit juice. So I think it can provide, you know, on a lifestyle perspective, it can provide a lot. The quality perspective. To me,

19:16 you know, as a wine person who would like to be able to drink these more comfortably at times, I'd like to see it get a little bit better. I don't know. And I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert in that product. They don't know the full, you know, process of how they're. Or even the experimentation that's going on right now. But I. I'm optimistic that a lot is being put into this because of the demand. So it'll be interesting to see, I suppose. I suppose. You know, I featured a wine feature. I used to sell a wine during. During the holidays for gift baskets for the non alk or D alk people. Yeah. But it wasn't. It was a deal wine. It was actually white zinfandel that they had picked and. And crushed and then put it in the bottle as just grape juice. So we got a cork finished glass bottle with the same label at the winery was making. It was called Castoro Cellars in El Paso.

20:08 But the winemaker's comment was, I have a hard time making this because I have to stop. I have to prevent fermentation. Yeah, right. So it wants to ferment on its own and just do it because there's some yeast in the air and there's yeast on the skins. And so I had to, like, immediately arrest the fermentation to get it in the bottle before. And then hopefully it didn't, you know, secondary ferment and make champagne. Champagne. So I thought it was really interesting. That naturally it wants to do that. I mean, in some ways, like you say you're just. You are having to disrupt a natural process. And I think the question is, how much do we really understand of how to. In a way Manipulate that properly to produce a better product. I think we're still in early stages. I think that somebody. Would you consult with somebody like, let's say there's a winery comes to you and they're all like, there's a lot of them. And we will talk about this in a second about sort of the divergency of some of these people that are still doing really well and the some that are really struggling. Yeah, but would you tell them, hey, make a. Don't you deox some of your stuff and add that to your portfolio? I don't know. Yeah, it would be easy. Certainly there are people doing that. I mean, you see it, you see some of the bigger brands are doing that. I wouldn't try to lead them into that if it wasn't something they were already considering. I don't know that. I don't know that that's necessary. You know, obviously people are looking for solutions and they, in their minds, that's a bit of a fallback that they might find comfortable. Like, well, at least we have this. But at the very least, I do

21:39 tell them, you know, make sure you have something, whether you partner with somebody or, you know, whatever it is, have something available in your tasting room for these people who come in. Because that, that. I just think it's important to stand behind this idea of choice, which we know is a big part of discussions that are going on right now in our industry with, you know, with these other products like the cannabis products, the non elk, the spirits and beer. I think it's important to be. To embrace that and show your consumers that you embrace that if they, if they want that. But I, yeah, it's come up, you know, I've seen some, some reports where. And just some people on the marketing end posting about people, you know, you should definitely consider producing, producing a non Elk or a, you know, D Elk or a low Elk product. And I, I don't. I would feel nervous about just pushing somebody in that direction if they weren't. It would be risky. I think it's risky. Risky as a consultant.

22:39 Like, yeah, do this and then it just falls on his face. And then you're, it's, it's. You're screwed. If they're already really into that idea and for whatever reason from either, you know, a, a business perspective or a personal reason, you know, fine, then I'm, I support that. And it's always great to have something else that you can talk about that's timely, but if they're not already kind of in that space I don't know. Yeah, I don't think I would. Would tell them to chase it because I, you know, it's not the easiest thing to produce, as we said, and it's costly, you know, in, in its own way to, to start producing another product with a different process. But there is big, there is big money being spent. I think Wein Hooligans or used to be Cinema 980 just bought the largest YAL company in America and they're a huge bulk wine vendor. Yeah.

23:31 You know, it's funny, anecdotally, I was at Whole Foods not too long ago and they were pouring off non al Corona beer, but they still had the stanchions up and it said must be 21. Oh, really interesting. This is non alcohol. You know, that is a very interesting. Again, this isn't my, you know, full wheelhouse the non elk world, but I certainly have friends who are in it and you know, and, and that has come up. Is it okay for young like for. For young people to drink like some of this non elk bubbly? And it's, it's making parents a little nervous because some of them are actually pretty good and that, you know, it. I'm not a conservative person when it comes. I think, you know, I think the more you restrict people from things, the more interesting it becomes to them. I'm. I'm not a parent.

24:23 I don't. But I've certainly seen that, you know, so it's like the European model to me has always been smart. Give them a little taste and you know, raise them responsibly around this stuff. But I do think it's an interesting question like should a kid be able just to go into a store and buy a bottle of that? They should. I guess by. I mean, I don't know what, what. I don't know if it becomes a teeth. This is an issue actually depending on which state you're in, whether it's a. We'll get off this non alk subject. But whether it's a TTB thing or whether it's a food or whether it's part of their alcohol beverage control and, and there's. There's two schools of thoughts there. Some treat it as food. It's not a problem. Yeah. Do you, do you think then you mentioned it earlier and maybe you talk about this at your conferences, but you think the pressure in the wine trade and the consumption issue that they're having, which by the way, we sold more wine in America than we did the year before from 2024. But do you think, do you think cannabis, non alk, low alk seltzers, you know, these flavored up things really are putting pressure on the wine trade.

25:33 Do you think that's a, that's a decision being made like, I'm not gonna drink wine, I'm gonna drink these things instead? I mean, I think there's no doubt if somebody has X amount of dollars to spend on, you know, food, drink, that the more that they have to consider it might impact, you know, what they spend on wine. But I, I don't know that it's really changed that much. I think it's important not to be afraid of these other categories, but try to find ways to just make sure that wine's at that table. I think, you know, this especially these younger consumers, but I actually believe in general we just, we are much more driven by having choice dependent on, you know, our mood or the environment or whatever is happening and, and wine needs to be in the mix. I don't, I haven't seen any data that has proven to me that these other categories are really, you know, impacting consumption to a level that we can trace. I'm sure there, there may be reports out there that I haven't seen. I keep waiting for that because I think that would be an easy answer to say, oh yeah, you know, we need to, we need to, we need to do some market research on, you know, cannabis users and get more in that space or whatever. But I haven't seen that. I think people are making, just making choices and, you know, I, I don't know that we can use that as an example of what we need to do. I just, what I do think is we just haven't been doing as a category and I

27:05 did talk a lot about this at the DTC conferences. We haven't been doing as good a job as talking to our audiences and keeping them engaged as some of these other categories have. So I don't know that it's, you know, that it's a fight of product, you know, taking our, our, our share. It's more just we haven't been great at staying in front of people and keeping them consuming what we're doing that triggers a thought. I usually wear a jacket when I'm sitting here. I don't realize I'm not wearing my jacket. Oh my God. We could stop this discussion. We start over on, on the jacket is a les. I mean, the event patch. And I've talked about this before, but it was an organization. My dad had a chapter in 1975 or so. And, and it was, you know, a wine enthusiast group. It was consumers that visited the store and he would put on events and Robert Madavi spoke and Lawrence Bowser and all the fame. Harry Waugh even came and, and I'm thinking that wine is going back that direction because in order to get the thought process in order what wine represents, the sense of time and place and that you have memory of that glass of wine.

28:17 In fact, I wrote down a note here about the non alk. Like I never, I'm not going to crave a non alkaline. No one will ever be at work. And gee, I just feel like a non alkaline when I get home because it's more of a, it's more of a social thing. But I do crave having a. During the day I might crave having a Bordeaux or having a conversation with a Burgundy maker and just want to go home and have a glass of Burgundy because of the memory of the sense which takes you the experiential side of wine. Yes. And I was talking to Violet Gage a couple days ago and she was saying that, you know, their, their tasting room traffic is clobbered right now. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, I don't know if you know this. I just learned this really from another wine tasting. I do. I don't usually taste wine when I go to Napa, I just go. But I actually went to a tasting and the woman was saying that Napa hotels have been holding their 30% occupancy on purpose by not dropping their prices because they can get away with less staff and a skeleton staff and do a part time labor and not have to deal with all the full time costs that California has put these people into. And so their prices have not come down. The our old room that we used to like is $1200. I'm not spending that kind of money. Wow. A night.

29:36 But then that's why there's nobody in the Valley. But at the same time, I think the experience of wine is where that needs to go. Yeah, let me reference this. We were talking about DTC. I mean my dad started the idea of DTC in 1972. It was serendipitously I just start delivering them, the selections to our local clients. But when I stood at a booth at the LA County Fair for 12 days in a row, for eight hours to 12 hours a day, just make sure I throw that out there. That was an experience for people. Yeah, they came up, they go watch this one of the month club. How do you do it? And we tell the story, we shake their hand, and now they've come away when that box shows up.

30:20 Oh, I remember that guy. Really interesting conversation. No question. I mean, this is definitely, again, when I say it's. When we say it's important to look at things both anecdotally and, and as far as the data goes, there's no question that people who visit wineries, there's a better return. They are more connected to the brand, they are more loyal to the brand. Even in a time when everyone complains that no one's loyal anymore to brands, there, there's no question. I mean, you go to a winery, you are on the grounds of the winery, you are meeting people associated with that brand. Hopefully you have a good experience. I mean, this is the other thing that is important for, for wineries and brands to recognize they really need to be buttoned up. You know, when I say buttoned up, they need to know who their audience is and what kind of experience they're providing. You know, whether it's in a garage or whether it's in a fancy winery. Because people will take that away with them. And it really does impact their choice going forward. And I see it even with friends of mine because I have a lot of industry friends, but I have a lot of friends who are not in the industry, but they travel and they're big wine and food people and it's amazing. They'll come back from Chile or, you know, from Portugal and they just are gushing about this location and this property. And even if the wine is good, but not the best ever, it's got to be good. As we said, it's a. They will, they will put their money towards that brand. They'll keep buying it every year, they'll look for it. So anyway, I think it's as much the on site experience

31:53 as the people that like you were representing, you know, this, this idea, it's so important now. And I actually think it doesn't surprise me given, you know, that we were all remote for so long and the direction that things have gone in, you know, with this kind of increased isolation. There are pros and cons to all of that. I think I'm seeing people really want to be in person, they want to have interaction with people. So doesn't surprise me. And I, you know, I talked to you a little bit about this. Well, I. Travel was another thing. So winery visits, Eno tourism, that was another category that I talked about in, in the DTC keynote. But I, I'm also doing work in it. And I just believe strongly that, you know, wine travel is, is a sort of a bright spot right now.

32:49 The stats are pretty encouraging and have been for several years. It is a segment of travel. It's a special interest segment that is one of the fastest growing in travel overall. So, you know, travel agents, travel, travel industry people, you know, have been coming to me for a while saying, okay, we don't really know much about wine and wineries, but watching these numbers and holy crap, you know, how do we get into this game? Because we're being asked to do this. So I think it's just proof that this is a growing interest of, you know, of travelers. It's important that, you know that businesses are ready to receive them and give them a great experience.

33:35 And it's, it's. There's a lot of untapped potential in that area, in my opinion. I think, I think that's right on, you know, tourism. I'm Armenian, I've been Armenia. I'm going to send you a link to a video I've created there about. And they have a whole, you know, tourism group that is working on that. The army is a, you know, a tough country to travel to if you're expecting European, you know, types of accommodations. They had them, but not all over the country. Right downtown. But I think, you know, tourism is important. And I just took a group. You know, we go to Monaco for the races and for the listeners, it's, you have to go. It's. Yes, it feels like it's expensive on the surface, but it really isn't because the, the, the entertainment value is so high. And so I, I told some friends and I, they've always said no, and I just do it to be nice. But they all said yes this time. So I ended up with 12 people, including my wife. Wow. And we started in Pimonte and it was so interesting because it was clear that, that they didn't entertain a lot. But I know people go to Pimonte. Yeah. And we dropped into Monaco for the race. We had four days and then we went to Bordeaux. And I, after it was over, it was, it was unbelievable because everything worked like, I'll never do this again, take 12 people on a tour.

34:55 Because everything worked. Yeah. There were no problems. Nobody complained. They had a great time. But the point of it was, the point was I don't know what we would have done despite the fact being in the trade with our time. I mean, you know, tourism is so Fun because you visit with these people who have this mysterious industry they work in and you get to hear the, the fascinations and the back house stories of what goes on at a winery that, you know, our whole tour, except for the race, was really, you know, tourism. Not deliberately. But I kept thinking, okay, I've been Eiffel Tower, you know, how many times, right, you go to the. We were in Sicily, we went to all the, all the ruins and how many times. But man, we went to the winery.

35:36 Winery and cooking. Those are the two things that were really cool to do and interactive and sort of, well, I mean, such a. Direct line to culture and such a direct line and personal line people. And you know, you made a point there that's I think, really important, which is you've done, you've already done all of the standard experiences and visits in these markets, right? And that's where I think, you know, tourism is so exciting because you have people who may think they, you know, they've been all over France or say they've been, you know, they've been to New York City, whatever, but they've never necessarily done it from a perspective of wine and food. It's such an.

36:18 Another layer and a new experience. You don't. And I love the idea of Armenia and you know, there's so many incredible parts of the world making wine now that I just think are fascinating. So I'm all about that. But it's also pretty cool that there's this new layer that people are discovering of already discovered places, but they can approach with a new angle and it makes those destinations sort of new again. And I think that's where I'm seeing a lot of demand, you know, and I think that makes sense. Again with, with these really saturated the Paris, New York or, or Napa or. People just are looking for new angles all the time, meaning travelers. And this is a great one. And you're right, you could spend your entire trip easily just on cuisine or on wine or on both. And it's, it's connected to everything else, in my opinion. Wine is wonderful for that reason. It's connected to history and culture and architecture and people. And so there's already a great trip in there just by focusing on wine.

37:25 That's a really good point. If you're, if you were to pick the definition of culture, you know, and I say this once in a while, like language would certainly, if you have a language, like Armenia has a language. Not all cultures have their separate language. Or the land, if you have it. Some countries don't have any more land. But certainly food and wine. Wine would be one of the great expressions of somebody's culture in the history of that wine. We're part of it. You know, it's interesting. There's, you know, the, the wine district here in Southern California, Temecula, which you know, as a DTZ vendor, we maybe featured three wines in the last 25 years from Temecula because the, the, it's not a standard. There have been a few that have come through but the tourism, the wine tourism there is incredible. And my, my son in law's like, hey, you gotta buy a winery down there. And I'm like, I don't think I'm buying a winery when I buy into Michael. I'm buying a, you know, tourism. Like you're not buying a brand that you're going to put in the wholesale chains and try to think you might put them. Yeah, you're, you're buying the idea. You're going to be a hospitality company and.

38:31 Yes. Is that you think that's a barrier for a lot of wineries, like understanding they're part of really hospitality. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think it's. And it's a lot to ask. Let's be fair. You know, we're listing off there's. And I think about that a lot. So it's a lot to ask for, especially a smaller winery that might not have a huge team and you know, might have somewhat limited finances to, to be all these things, you know, you need to be an expert in hospitality. You should be a communications expert. You better make really great wine. You should know the trends by the way. You should be sustainable if you can. You know, we, we're asking a lot. A lot of moving parts there. Well, that's its own thing. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're asking a lot and it is a lot to try to be on top of all these things. But hospitality? Yes. I mean to me I think that it's especially when as we said, you're so close to something, you think something's happening. You might be running a winery and you're the owner and you've got a couple.

39:32 Maybe you have somebody from your family or you know, a person that you've trained to be in that tasting room. You're not there all day. You don't always know what those interactions are. Some, you know, just understanding when someone walks in the door, what the level of understanding, being able to get a read on a person when they come in to taste wine. Are they looking for just some really fun facts and just an enjoyable moment with their friends and please leave me alone. Are they, you know, usually this is a smaller percentage of people, but you get. Are they wine knowledgeable and they really want to drill down into, you know, the science of what you're doing. And they want to talk, you know, soil and ph and you know, that's hard. You need to be somebody who has a bit of a training and understanding of how to read what's walking in the door and then having some options for those people.

40:24 It's so, yeah. I mean, I think hospitality is absolutely necessary if you're going to have any type of, you know, accessible location for your brand. That's a crazy good thought. And I just, I thought of maybe think of something and it's a huge issue that's going on as it probably always has. But the discussions are public now on social networking and that is, you know, we're trying to dumb down the business. I think that's a total hoax. Wine is not to be dumbed down. It's a complicated product. You can learn as much as you want to learn. You can not learn as much as you want to learn.

41:04 But it's not to be dumbed down to make it more accessible because that's impossible to do. Yeah. But it does take a read. And I reference. This is probably 30 years ago. I took my wife to Napa for the first time. I think maybe it was not my first time, but her first time. And the tasting room person said something to her that she considered quite insulting. And she has not forgotten that. When I see that brand on the shelf and I won't throw them under the bus on the shelf or we drive by the winery again, it always comes out that this person said this to her and that's she'll never drink it again. That's amazing. I go, wow. You know, just. You just triggered that thought. I haven't thought about that story for a long time. Just. And. And it has a lot to do with, you're right. Reading that person that comes up instead of start talking about this. The, you know, the bricks and the acid content and the ph. Why don't we find out what they're interested in knowing.

42:02 Yeah. And where. How deep they want to go. And you're right, you don't have to dumb it down. But you should know what kind of how far you know, you want them to. How far to drill down. And I think sometimes it's amazing how you can just read. Just look at their face. I Know this, I have to deal with this as an educator. When I do some of this consumer facing stuff, I look at people and I look into their eyes. Are they glazing over? Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, not from the wine they're drinking, but are they checking out? You know, and, and so some of it is on the fly and just being a little bit smarter and better at that. I, I know that sometimes intrinsically people are better at that, but, but, you know, I think also recognizing again, on the hospitality end, a lot of people already feel vulnerable learning about wine. We're all trying to help that and change that. But like to your wife, to the point of your, the story with your wife. I mean, and I don't know what her level was, but like, you know, someone coming in is already feeling a little exposed probably because if they don't know a ton about it, they might feel like they're afraid to speak up or whatever. And if you are careless or hasty and you in whatever way kind of make them feel that they're not up to scratch or demean them, forget it. You're right. I mean, people remember that and they don't come back. And it could even impact the area that the winery is in. If somebody has an association with people in Nap or snobby. I don't like going. And I've heard that, by the way. And

43:32 I, you know, Napa has so many great experiences. But, you know, maybe early on there were some people that didn't behave very well in those tasting rooms with, with the novices. And you still hear people saying, well, I'll, I go to Snowmer, I'll go to the Central Coast. They're a lot more, you know, relaxed about things. And it's like, it's too bad because I think it's really changed. I think a lot of the Napa wineries do a great job, but it's, you know, the consumers don't forget, especially if you don't. If you make them embarrass them or just all you have to do is just have a dialogue, like you said, find out what they're interested, maybe even ask them that question. What are you interested in? Well, you know, the, I don't think the other thing that's happening on the Internet is like, I don't know, some of these gen zers are talking about it. Even millennials, maybe they're throwing out all this stuff about how, you know, we're missing the point and the industry's too slow and, and they throw out what we should be doing. I'm like, what you're talking about are standard old school sales type questions. Yeah. Like you ask an open ended question about, you know, you don't ask. Yes, no question. You ask questions that help you understand who the person is. That's not new. This is, this is how you get trained to sell anything. I sold copiers door to door. I mean that's those how we, that's how we got people interested was open ended questions about where they're at and what they're doing is. But on the flip side of what you're saying, that person walks into the room and they pay the money. They've raised their hand, they've already expressed an interest. They want to be there on purpose. They're not being forced.

45:03 Well, I guess some guys get forced to go, right? No, they want, they already have indicated by showing up that they want to learn or at least experience or taste. So yeah, I don't think you should assume they don't want that. But I think a lot of it and you know, I talk a lot in my career, have talked a lot about not only what you're saying but how you're saying it. And you made another good point, which is, you know, these are not new approaches. These are like tried and true tactics that people have used in sales forever. I can't figure out why the wine industry is so resistant to following good models and other categories. Like we don't have to reinvent the wheel on what we do in, in, in a lot of this. It's like, look at other areas of business that do things well. You can adapt a lot of that to wine and wine, you know, communication and wine, you know, And I, I, I don't know why we do that. I think it's okay. And, and we, we just get very, we get very sort of insular about that.

46:03 But. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, Sorry. But at least a good question. It is not like any industry in the world, period. The beverage is not. And neither is the industry because it doesn't follow any rules except for those fundamental things we're just talking about in order to understand your client. That's rules. You can't fudge. But there's no other product in the world that has scoring and has ratings and has periodicals focus on those ratings. So, and I, but I've been reading and I've been hearing that a lot of that is not as important as it used to be. That let's just, you're working with James Suckling, Right now you work with the enthusiasts are though, are those groups shifting their focus on what they're presenting to the public through their digital and their print marketing? Are they still focused on having the consumer understand what brands are out there and what, what we think the relative quality is? Yeah, I think they're, you know, I can't speak to exactly what Enthusiast is doing now. I haven't been there for over three years. But, but, you know, from what I see and certainly from, you know, knowing what, what the Suckling team is working on, you know, ratings are still front center and that's okay.

47:19 I think there is definitely. I'm not one of those people that believes that ratings are a joke and we shouldn't pay attention. I think, I think people want someone to do the work for them and appreciate it. I think it's always important to though I say to consumers, it's okay to like what you like. You know, go ahead, try some of what they vetted for you. That's a great, you know, to me that's an advantage to have someone doing that for you and then, but then taste and make your own decisions. So I think the trade still relies very heavily on scoring, obviously, so I don't see it going away anytime soon. I think brands like to have that and, you know, depending on the model. With some of these organizations, they do rely on advertising and, you know, they want to keep their people happy. So. But I think it just, it's still part of the mix. It's just not the only part of the mix now, you know, and I think that's very true with the younger consumers. I think they'll still look at that, but they have a. They're more comfortable stepping away from scoring. If they don't agree, well, there's them to try it. But I think if they try it and they're like, okay, well, you know, X Critic gave this 93 points.

48:33 I don't really like it. Not going to keep buying it. I'll just find something else. Maybe I'll try something in the same, you know, varietal category or whatever. That's an interesting point and it's certainly in its fundamental value. Let's take Wine of the Month club. I stood there every Tuesday for 35 years and I tasted wine from nine to two. And your suppliers, distributors, whoever wanted to come in, importers could bring it in and I would taste everything. And my dad, Tommy, I don't care what you smell that you're going to taste it because you get how you're going to understand the flaws if you don't taste even the bad stuff. Yeah, but there was a lot of bad stuff. And in fact, you know, our general percentage of wines that would pass would be 15% of the, of the domestic wines that we tasted passed and only 5 to 10% of the imported wines would pass the test. The test was the value of the wine based on where it was from and what was trying to be in the price. Is it a good wine? And then if it is a good wine, is it, is the price fair for what it is, you know, compared to its neighbor? And that's all we did. That's, that was the basis of it. And so I think the rating system does do the same thing. In other words, we always wondered, and I used to see the wines that did not pass the Wine of the Month club standard, which wasn't, you know, it was pretty critical, but, you know, we had to sell wine too. I would see them on the shelf.

49:59 Yeah. And so they were bad. Some of them were just bad. Right. So they're going to, you know, the idea was you're going to plant the grapes, you're going to spend all this money, you're going to pick them, you're going to ferment them. You got to put it in the bottle because you're not going to throw it away if you don't like it or you're going to blend it off with something else and sort of have a nuance of a bad wine inside of something slightly better. And so that was the real security of what Wine of the Month Club was. And certainly it seems like here the rating system, maybe you don't agree this is a 95 point wine, but it certainly was something you could drink and you toss it out. There's no major flaw. I mean, obviously you can't always ensure that. I shouldn't even say that because per bottle could vary. But it's, there's no major winemaking flaw or, you know, it's, it's drinkable, it has like value. Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't even think at that level, very basic level. It's just checking that this is even something that you want to put in your glass. Yeah.

50:54 Beyond that, you start to get into more of that subjective kind of approach. But I think there's a place for it. Like I said, there's a place for it. It's just not the only. I think it used to be, it used to feel like scores drove everything. And I think it's that's changed. And that's okay. I think that's just fine. On the flip side, you go to. What town are you in? What's that? In Connecticut? Okay. I suppose the supermarket's the same, but if you go to Vons or Ralster Pavilions here, every bottle has a shelf talker. We don't have. We can't. We don't have wine in the. In the supermarket.

51:37 Supermarket, yeah. Sorry. The wine shop's not going to do that. Oh, my God, it's so confusing. I go in there and I. I've done this, you know, like, I look at the shop, I go, how would I. How would I possibly make a decision as a consumer if every bottle has something to say like that? I think it's funny. This just came up. I was recently in Michigan with family and I. We were in a. In a supermarket that had wine from all over. And I was watching how they chose because I usually go in and they're like, tell me what to get. And labels are still a big one. I hate to say it, but they are looking at the label. They're looking at the price. I mean, you know, this is not a super deep wine drinker doing this, but, you know, it's overwhelming. That's all we have is a look at. And I thought maybe that's shelf talkers and all that. Yeah, right. But maybe we should, because the fallacy of scores, and we're actually out of time already. But the fallacy of scores, in my opinion is I had a wonderful 95 point.

52:40 Forgot the island now. But it was a. A grape you'd never heard of, and it was out of a remote island off of Italy, and it wasn't Sardinia. It was something else. And I go, wow, this is amazing. Of course, soil. It had 95. I mean, a world of difference to a Napa 95 point Napa cab. Right? So if you're chasing scores, you certainly're gonna find a variety of wines that some you will not like, but at least you know that it was properly made based on, you know, what's in the bottle. So maybe part of the education is like elementary label reading. So if you go to the store and you look at the shelf and you see California, but you also see Napa, and the prices are the same and the grapes the same. Maybe the idea of the pedigree of the Napa version is something you would lean towards just because you have a slight understanding of what the label is telling you. I don't know. No, it's a really good point. There's. Even so there's a lot of subjectivity in scoring and like not only the critic themselves, but also the category that they're scoring in. Are they, is that a 95 point wine compared to other wines from Sardinia or wherever it is? Is that a 95 point wine in the, in the broad sphere of, you know, whatever the variety is, it's, it's, it's a little confusing. So yeah, you have to take, I always say like, you know, you have to be your own advocate as a wine drinker. You know, taste and follow your instincts and like what you like because sometimes it is quite subjective and multi layered. So did we solve anything today? I don't know.

54:12 I think we were in agreement on most things. So I think what we solved is that wineries need to take control of their understanding of hospitality and in person experiences, you know, and that they should be looking at less saturated and underexposed markets. I didn't get into that. I do talk to people about that a lot. Stop trying to be in the New York market as your first go. Why don't you start looking at Boulder or Asheville or you know, look at markets that are food driven, that maybe aren't saturated with wine and get in those markets and pitch those media. Because yeah, it's sometimes it's just the obvious that people overlook and it's like. Yeah. So anyway, I think, I think staying the course, like I said earlier and it will resolve, some of this will resolve or there'll be new consumer challenges on the horizon because there's new marketing methods and there's new AI based purchasing and consumerism and that, that are going to throw messages at.

55:17 It's, it's an unknown. The only thing that's known, and this came from Kevin o' Leary once and I had experienced it at the Wine of the Month club, which is what's working today is not going to work tomorrow. Yesterday didn't work today. That's true. So you do have to be dynamic and I think that's really hard for wineries, especially small ones who got in the business because they love the business, they love the product, they want to express themselves, but they're confronted with contemporary marketing requirements. And that's much more complicated than probably expected at the time. Well, and like I said, you can't, you can't possibly and shouldn't I agree be try to be all things, all people. It changes all the time. You're going to be exhausted trying to do it. You should stay the course. But just take a look at some simple. The simple areas that you can be, you know, a little more buttoned up on. I mean, I, like I said, messaging.

56:06 Just make sure your website, you know, you taught it's up to date. It's not 10 years out of date. Make sure that, you know, you kind of understand who you're talking to. And. And it doesn't have to be terribly complicated. You can get deeper than that. But you also don't want to chase trends. We, We've, you know, seen what happens when people do that. It doesn't. Doesn't go well for them. So it's kind of somewhere in the middle there. You have to be open and nimble, but at the same time be true to yourself. And. And that tends to be the success. The good balance. Well described. It's such an honor to have you on the show. A pleasure. After all these attempts, I know I. Knew we would make it happen eventually, so I really appreciate it. I appreciate the time today. Cheers. Okay. Cheers. Thanks.