The Surprising Reason Bordeaux's Grand Châteaux Say No to Wine Trends: Meet Pauline Frandin.

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When you taste wine, yeah, you're feeling something. And it could be with a bottle

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of $10, could be with a bottle of $20, could be like

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way more expensive than that. But it's— and you can't explain it. It's

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emotion. So, you know, when we are traveling, we are trying to

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share something, but the only way to really experience it is to

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come at the winery and they're feeling something really

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special. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and I am in studio today, beautiful

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Southern California. We're gonna have a conversation with Pauline Frandon from

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Cantenac Brown, a château, a famous château. And let's just get

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started because you're on this major tour

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of the US. Right. What do you do? What do you

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typically do? Do you make rounds like you're doing today, or do you go to

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dinners, or what do you usually do? Not regular like today, 'cause this is the

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first time I'm doing a podcast. You're kidding. No, I'm not. So thank

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you for being here. Well, we have high expectations and pressure

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on. Thank you for this opportunity. So it's like

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daily tastings. So we are visiting hotels,

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restaurants, wine shops to meet people, to

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let them know about the winery, to let them try the wines, obviously. And

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we had many, you know, improvement the past year. So it's also a way to

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like catch up and explain them what we've done the past years.

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For example, we have a new winery, so we have to express. Has

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Cantenac-Brown always done that? I mean, is this something that's part of the

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regular routine to travel? You probably travel the world. I mean, I

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used to, the entire world, and then I just

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focus on US and, I mean, Americas and Europe right now. And

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someone else is taking care of Asia, starting from now.

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But since I'm then at the winery, yes, it's really regular. It's a

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regular basis to travel globally. 'Cause, uh, for me, that's really interesting,

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this embedded industry, this ancient part of the wine world

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in Bordeaux. And we are still, if not going back

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to going out there and, you know,

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one glass at a time, sharing the story, right? And

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sharing the wine. And what is the reception generally for

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Cantenac-Brun when you, when you walk into a wine shop for the first time? Pretty

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good, actually. So I, I don't know if it's just because they know the

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winery or they are not used to seeing us. So every time we're

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coming, they're like, oh, that's so nice of you to come, and so on. And

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it's always a pleasure to meet people and to share the philosophy of the winery,

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to let them taste the wines, and show them the potential as well of the

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winery, because I'm truly sure about the quality

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and the potential of the cellar and the team. So

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it's always a pleasure to share ideas about the wine industry,

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to show them the potential of the winery and aging potential,

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especially of the château. So you can trust the château for like years and years

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and years. So no, they're very, very happy to see, I mean, just not

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just me, all people from wineries. I mean, now we are all

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globally traveling and right now I have so many friends in the US

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right now and they're doing the same as me. So. Well, that's right. This is

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a Bordeaux tour for me in Wine Talks. I'm

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gonna package all these, conversations

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as this sort of exploratory part of

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Bordeaux. Right. And when the comment I made earlier when we were talking

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about these other brands, you know, we have the Grand Vin, your

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main brand. Yeah. But it seems to me that,

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and particularly in Bordeaux, that the second label, it's not even the right word anymore,

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right? The second label. No. Yeah, we, I hate that word, to be honest. Yeah.

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Because it's not just the second label. First, it's not a

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wine. It's not a wine. You know, because we have a very specific blend, we

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have a specific winemaking process. process toward that wine. So

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it's not, you know, the 2 reds for the winery, there are 2 different plot

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selections. So before the harvest, the team tastes all the

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different plots, and according to their profile, to their aromas, they're going to

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identify the wine they're going to produce. So it's not the best of the harvest

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just for the main label, and with the remaining, you're

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doing the second one. No, for us, it's really specific selection of

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plots really made for the 2 wines. And then

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for Bréot, so we're looking for more freshness, juiciness, and accessibility in the

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So we blend in more Merlot inside, which is totally the opposite

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for Corton-à-Gouin, where you're looking for intensity and structure. That's interesting. So

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you put more Cabernet Sauvignon instead. Yes. So 2 different

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blends. Aging also is different.

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So Brioche, with the new winery, we added foudres, you know, the

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big, big, big, big content for the aging. So

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since 2023 now, Brioche is aged at 50%

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in the foudres. So you have even more freshness, even more accessibility

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in the wine, and it's classical barrel barrels for, for

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Comtesneige-Brun. And, and also the, the selling process is

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different. So we prefer to hold the stock at the château

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for Brioche and release the vintage when we think it's ready to be enjoyed.

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So for example, we just released '22 this year. You know, so

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is this an— is this a way, because I think they're incredible values and,

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and I have many at my home, but is it a way

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for a consumer who is

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confused at the market, they're confused at the wine shop, a way to

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experience Quinta da Nac Brão without having

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to invest in the Grand Vin, but still understand—

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Right. What the brand value. 100%, yes. And, you know,

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it's probably the first Bordeaux that people will enjoy from the winery.

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So you have to pay attention to it because if they

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don't, like this, but there's no way they're going to try Campagnolo.

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So that's why probably Brioche is way more important, or

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is as important as the first one. But

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the young generation, they're going to try that one first. People,

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thanks to the price, they will try Brioche first. So if they're not into

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it, there's no way they're going to move to Campagnolo. So you have to be

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really, really careful and serious. We did a wedding recently

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for my nephew. And I— Congrats. Yeah, thank you.

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It was huge. And I always have

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emphasized with my customers and of course with my family, like, you know, don't

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skimp on the wine. Don't go with the hotel wine.

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Let's pay the corkage and put real wine on the table

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and, you know, pay the valet a little less or get a smaller

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band or something, right? So we did. We only

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tasted you know, the second brands of

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Bordeaux châteaux. And people were coming over to the

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table like, wow, this is amazing. See? Right? It's

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just, it's just part of the process of it. Part of a

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good glass of wine and a proper dinner in the proper

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environment. And this is a way to do it at a price range that—

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It's so interesting. Yeah. And also, you know, sometimes you're not,

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You're not, when you're coming home, you're not into like the grand vin. You're like,

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oh, okay, I want something fun. Yeah, right. And

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we are more like modern and so on. So this is it. I mean, it's

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the perfect wine for pleasure. You're coming home, you want to enjoy your glass of

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wine with moderation, obviously. This is it. This is the bottle. Why do you, why

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do you do this? I mean, how long you been doing this and why do

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you do it? Working in the wine industry? Yeah.

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So I'm— I mean, this isn't easy. We know this. Especially now.

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So I'm working for the winery for almost 10 years now.

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And before, I used to work for a négociant in

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Bordeaux. But actually, my parents are wine lovers, so

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I naturally felt in this

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industry. And it's, you know, a

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perfect combo to meet new people, to share passion about wine,

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to share knowledge, to promote also friends as well.

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So, no, that's a pretty good industry. I don't know if that's, I don't know

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if you answered why. Like, why do, maybe, maybe I should ask

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myself the question. Like, this podcast isn't making money

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really. And, but I, I have this amazing passion

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to, to tell these stories. Is that what lights you up?

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It's the same. I mean, you know, when I, I, when I started to work

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in the wine industry, I, I worked for négociants and, you know, during 5

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years. But at the end, you know, you are representing

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all the different châteaux of Bordeaux, but no one in particular. So

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people were asking, okay, between these 2 wineries, which one do you

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prefer and why? What's your favorite one? Yeah, that's—

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yeah, so it's, you know, you don't want to disrespect anyone, so you have

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to be like super like, okay. So at the end, I was like,

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okay, ah, this is not what I want to do any longer. I really want

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to promote like a winery, a team, a

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story, one product to really see my

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real impact, you know, on something. So, I mean,

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Duclos, the négociant, did that give you some—

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and for the listeners, Duclos is the representative in Los Angeles for

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much of the Bordeaux traffic. But did that give you

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some insight to being on the négociant side and then coming

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to the supply side? Weekly. Weekly. Yeah. I mean, we are in

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contact. Yeah. not weekly with the team here because they have to

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work with other wineries, but with the team in Bordeaux, like,

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every week. So yeah, they give us and they help us a lot to understand

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better the market and to explain to us also the

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situation and the difficulty they are facing

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and how we can find any ways and so on. So it's like very— it's

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a real partnership, but, you know, real one. Like, we are really talking

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frankly to each other. to see how is the

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situation, I mean, in the US or in other countries, like in Europe or

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in Asia, and see if this vintage fits more here

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or elsewhere, if it's more into Brioche or it's a

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back vintage of Cortnac Blanc. So it's like regular exchange

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with them to find the perfect fit. I mean, it's interesting because we were

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in Wine Paris this year and now it's gonna be an annual trip, you

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know, and the whole Bordeaux building is either a négociant or

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some of the suppliers, right? And is that a hindrance? Is it—

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is the marketing in the United States

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a little overly complicated compared to the rest of the world because of our 3-tier?

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That was like, that was like, of course it is. What a stupid question.

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No, yeah, probably. I mean, it's a very specific,

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um, system here in the US, but

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it's kind of more or less complicated than some other countries.

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The margins get clobbered, which were already low anyway. And then you have

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to add to the complications of the law. I'm doing a— I'm

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moderating a panel next weekend for a bar

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association, you know, legal group about the

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legalities and the issues that surround the wine trade in

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California. It's even worse in California. And in France,

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talk about France. You know, we sold this, my business, we

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sold it in 2023. One of the reasons was my

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wife says, and she's a CPA, she's an accountant, she said,

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we got to close this March 31st because that's the first quarter of the year.

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Okay. Because I don't want to do 38 more tax returns.

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38. Yeah. You know, and that's just a handful compared to what— besides all

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the other stuff we had to do. So I can, I can see why this

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is This is a headache here. So, but we are suffering from a

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little bit of downturn. I was reading something this morning

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and the numbers don't look that dramatic, you know, like 4%

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here and 8% there, some percent. But that's actually quite a lot

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when it comes to the wine trade and, and trying to break the future

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of wine and planting and picking and all that stuff. But, you know,

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like 4% here, 8% there, and so on and so on. And at the end

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it's like, It's a lot. It's a lot. And so is,

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is your tour in the response to just trying to maintain the momentum?

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And is Cantenac Brown— I mean, there's some rumors or

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discussions that the, the main châteaux of Bordeaux are having trouble,

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not having as much trouble, but they're all having trouble. It's

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tough right now. I mean, to be honest, it's really tough. But for

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everyone, not just us, not, not for all. I mean, for France,

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for Bordeaux, for Burgundy. I mean, for, for everything. All wineries across the

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globe, but actually, so the U.S. is the main market

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of the winery. So also, I'm here to like really settle

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down everything and to find new places also

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to to sell the wine. So the the brand is kind of

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well known here. So probably it's a little bit easier thanks

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to the work we've done the past years. But it's because also

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it's really really tough that you have to like. work twice more,

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3 times more for the same results. But you have to be

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here. And, you know, there's a lot of competition in Bordeaux, and

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especially in Margaux, because you have 61 classified growths and

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21 are in Margaux. So— Wow. I didn't really

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know. I thought that— There's a lot of options. Yeah. There are like

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10 or even less, something like that.

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Margaux is like, It's the biggest appellation. So that's why you

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have so many options in Margaux. So if it's not us, it's gonna be someone

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else. So it's because it's tough that you have to be

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here. You have to come to see your clients and

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so on and to say, hi, I'm here. Don't forget me. I had a

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conversation yesterday with, I don't know if she's an influencer. She's rather

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educated. She's got all kinds of wine degrees and

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certifications. And we were discussing the, you know, the Gen Z

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issue and the millennial issue. And I, you know, I don't even know if we

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can pin it down to that. Part of me tells me, part of

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this tells me after reading a lot this morning,

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that maybe we just didn't plan very well. Like the industry I'm talking about. Maybe

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we just didn't, maybe we just tried to out-market ourselves

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into creating all kinds of interesting things and ways to do this. I just saw

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this morning somebody created a cranberry a winery and a

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cranberry company got together, made a holiday wine out of cranberries.

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And I thought maybe we just thought this was too— there was

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just too much on the horizon and we didn't plan well. And

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now we're pulling up vines in Napa Valley and we're

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overproduced in some cases. And then

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legend brands, legendary brands like— Yeah. Catholic Brown are

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kind of stuck holding the ball a little bit because they've always been around. We've

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we only make so much and we've done the same thing for 100 years. Right.

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And now we're challenged. Yeah, it's challenging, but for different

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reasons. Like, I mean, as you said, like, the new

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generation, they're not really into wines, or I mean alcohol

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in general, but wine particularly. So we

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have to work on that and how to see how we can, like, attract them.

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But also wineries, we are producing less and less and less because of, like,

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weather and sun. So

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yeah, we didn't, we didn't, probably didn't see it coming, but

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it's like a circle. Like— It is a circle. Yeah,

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like, let's say 50 years or even more. It was also

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tough and they were like, stop. They tried

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to stop to produce and to produce less in order to figure it out. And

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then they replanted some vines to produce more because it

250
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was great again. So it's like— You can't predict. That's like 5 years. You

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can. 5 years minimum, right? Yeah. to try to figure that out.

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At least. And one of the comments I read was

253
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that maybe wine, you know, it's always been this way to a certain

254
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extent. My father's store, we had white Zinfandel from Sutter Home,

255
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Matus, Lancers, all these brands that were entry-level. But

256
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the idea that it was marketed as a beverage

257
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rather than a, not sophisticated drink,

258
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but a special drink that has a human connection to it.

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And it's just wine. It's not, I mean, people are like,

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I'm not into wine because for them it's something very like

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exclusive and like high-end, or they don't know too much

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about wine, so they're a little bit afraid. So they don't know, I don't know

263
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about wine, so I can't taste it. For sure you can. I mean,

264
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that's a— I don't know how to explain it. And I was

265
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telling this story yesterday to somebody. I was at a,

266
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the supermarket in the beach areas here in Southern California

267
00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:48,180
with a great wine selection. In fact, the woman that used to curate this,

268
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she ended up falling in love and getting married and leaving, which I was very

269
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disappointed in because she was really— but she

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was really cute, though. But she was so passionate

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about what she put on the shelf. Right. And I said, we need more of

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you. And I wanted to hire her to come work for me at the time.

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But at the same time, that store has now created a club. And, you know,

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everybody's doing the club. But the guy was standing there,

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and the woman walked up to taste some wine. It was an Italian white.

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And he started with the elevation conversation and the grape

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varietal and the root system. And I thought,

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man, this is exactly wrong. Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. This is

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right over their head. All she's like, she wanted a glass of wine while she

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was going shopping is what she wanted. She just wants to enjoy it. Like, let

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her enjoy it. Yes. You know, it's the same when people are visiting the

282
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winery. So we would come like, obviously professionals, but also like

283
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people. Yes. And sometimes, okay, they are asking us, what

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do you have to find in terms of aromas and so on? You don't

285
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have to find anything. So what do you think? So, oh, but I

286
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don't know. I mean, yes, you do. I mean, you're, you're

287
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tasting grapes and fruits and so on. So you have memories. So we are

288
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just bringing them in the, in the way. So like, what

289
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,693
is, is it probably like red or dark fruit? Oh, dark fruit. Okay.

290
00:18:09,302 --> 00:18:12,492
So you bring them here, but the first question is, what do I have to—

291
00:18:13,293 --> 00:18:16,852
nothing. Nothing. Enjoy it. Right. Enjoy it. Do you get that a lot then? Enjoy

292
00:18:16,852 --> 00:18:20,410
it. At the, at the tasting room? Especially with like, like tourists.

293
00:18:20,522 --> 00:18:24,321
Yes. Because they are, it's wine. So for them it's

294
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like, ooh, it's a, it's a thing. It's just wine. So,

295
00:18:28,681 --> 00:18:32,400
but that's, isn't that interesting to you that somebody that is saying that at the

296
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,039
tasting room came to the winery in the first place?

297
00:18:36,135 --> 00:18:39,758
Yeah. Right. Because, and this leads into another conversation about

298
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enotourism, which is quite popular now. It is more and more.

299
00:18:43,846 --> 00:18:47,517
Yep. And do you suppose then that's just to help

300
00:18:47,517 --> 00:18:50,964
people understand the culture? They come to a country, whether it's Bordeaux, I mean,

301
00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:54,747
France or Italy or Croatia, that, that, that,

302
00:18:55,148 --> 00:18:58,803
that's part of their exploration of the culture itself? It is. It is. So probably

303
00:18:58,835 --> 00:19:02,522
the main reason is, okay, I'm visiting Bordeaux. Obviously I have to, I mean, No,

304
00:19:02,923 --> 00:19:06,692
I should visit a winery because you're visiting Bordeaux. But

305
00:19:06,692 --> 00:19:10,156
then when they're entering the tasting room, it's like, ooh, okay, it's

306
00:19:10,284 --> 00:19:13,732
coming more serious and serious. So this is it. And

307
00:19:14,133 --> 00:19:17,437
then when you just have to make it very simple and it's just wine, we're

308
00:19:17,437 --> 00:19:21,029
just here to share things, share knowledge and have a great

309
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:24,734
moment. So that's it. I've told this story before and we were,

310
00:19:24,894 --> 00:19:28,731
I have friends that will, and I'm gonna hear about this later, by saying it

311
00:19:28,731 --> 00:19:32,524
again, but early, early on in my career,

312
00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:36,253
we were at a winery with my friends, and the comment to me

313
00:19:36,576 --> 00:19:39,502
by one of my best friends, still actually, it was,

314
00:19:41,168 --> 00:19:44,564
I think what you guys talk about is bullshit. You know, like the way you

315
00:19:44,564 --> 00:19:47,893
explain a wine, I don't believe any of this stuff you say. It's just hype.

316
00:19:48,764 --> 00:19:52,297
I go, and this is taking, this is going really down to the roots of

317
00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:56,748
tasting wine. I go, okay, you have

318
00:19:56,781 --> 00:20:00,621
2 Cabernets in front of you. They're 2014. So I guess this is probably

319
00:20:00,637 --> 00:20:04,187
around 2016 or '17. And they're from the same

320
00:20:04,203 --> 00:20:07,897
winemaker, from the same winery. They're from different— they're

321
00:20:07,929 --> 00:20:11,736
different blends. Okay. I said, are they

322
00:20:11,736 --> 00:20:15,585
different? He said, yes. I go, you're on your

323
00:20:15,633 --> 00:20:18,862
way. I mean, that's just— that's as simple as it could be, right?

324
00:20:19,168 --> 00:20:22,639
Right. You did notice that they were different. Yeah. Even though they're made by the

325
00:20:22,639 --> 00:20:26,282
same person, aged in the same method. So that— and I

326
00:20:26,282 --> 00:20:30,067
think that was— that kind of turned the head a little bit of

327
00:20:30,067 --> 00:20:33,482
what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're here—

328
00:20:35,302 --> 00:20:38,603
because I was talking to a restaurateur whose bottle sales were 40%

329
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:41,970
off, and when I asked him about his

330
00:20:42,020 --> 00:20:44,294
stewards,

331
00:20:46,008 --> 00:20:49,785
his waiters, I said, what do they know?

332
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He said, They don't know anything. I go, well, don't you think that's part of

333
00:20:53,416 --> 00:20:57,125
your problem? That— It's also, and that's why we are doing more and

334
00:20:57,125 --> 00:21:00,561
more like wine store, I mean restaurants with, um,

335
00:21:01,138 --> 00:21:04,879
tasting in the restaurant and stuff with the team. Like these, like probably

336
00:21:04,976 --> 00:21:07,930
10, 15 minutes because they don't have time, but to

337
00:21:08,604 --> 00:21:11,976
share with them like few winery, a few info about the wineries to let them

338
00:21:11,976 --> 00:21:15,444
try the wines and so on. But yeah, you have to like knowledge your

339
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:18,879
team. Because they are also the ambassadors. So

340
00:21:19,923 --> 00:21:23,535
people are willing to have details and help

341
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,613
because I probably, I mean, most of the population is

342
00:21:28,030 --> 00:21:31,145
scared about wine because they don't know. And that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine.

343
00:21:31,257 --> 00:21:34,564
And you have people here to help you. So when you're entering in the wine

344
00:21:34,613 --> 00:21:37,711
store, someone will help you. I mean, that's okay. I mean,

345
00:21:38,530 --> 00:21:42,287
you're okay. But yeah, so that's why we are doing more and more like masterclasses

346
00:21:43,603 --> 00:21:47,166
when we can welcome people at the winery. Sure, it's a long travel,

347
00:21:47,215 --> 00:21:50,856
but I mean, it's really different, makes more sense.

348
00:21:51,803 --> 00:21:55,509
So yeah, I have a very short presentation to show them

349
00:21:55,557 --> 00:21:59,343
and to give them a few details. In 5

350
00:21:59,343 --> 00:22:03,161
minutes, they have all the details about the winery, and then they can express

351
00:22:03,161 --> 00:22:06,787
them to the consumers and so on. So yeah, it's really important.

352
00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:11,118
How old is Cantenac-Braun? Oh, more than 200 years old. Oh, that's

353
00:22:11,118 --> 00:22:14,950
it. Do you think they understand wine now, or we haven't

354
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:18,770
figured it out yet? Ooh, the owner? No more. Yeah, they understand. I mean, 200

355
00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:21,690
years, that could be infancy in the wine world, right?

356
00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:25,330
1806. Yeah, it's a young lady. And this is what

357
00:22:25,330 --> 00:22:28,890
family generation is this? So now it's a French family since

358
00:22:28,890 --> 00:22:32,730
2019, since December 20— So relatively new. Yeah, since December

359
00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:36,330
2019, and it's a French family. So the founder was Scottish,

360
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:40,670
and his name was John Evis Brown. So that's why he called the winery Campagne

361
00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:42,410
Brown. And we had different families through the centuries.

362
00:22:45,249 --> 00:22:49,083
And for French family now since almost 7

363
00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:52,933
years. What was their ambition when they started 7 years ago?

364
00:22:52,998 --> 00:22:56,669
Because the world is completely different than 7 years ago. It was. It was.

365
00:22:56,846 --> 00:23:00,662
And we were not expecting what we experienced the

366
00:23:00,727 --> 00:23:04,471
past years. So they had many— I mean, they had many

367
00:23:04,504 --> 00:23:08,302
goals. First was to expand the vineyards. So

368
00:23:08,464 --> 00:23:12,068
when they arrived, we had 48 hectares. Today we have 80.

369
00:23:12,783 --> 00:23:16,395
So one of— yeah, it was one of the, of the projects. And the

370
00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:20,280
main, main, main project was the construction of a new

371
00:23:20,328 --> 00:23:23,957
winery. So when they decided to

372
00:23:24,326 --> 00:23:27,986
purchase the château, so they, they meet the team and they met José

373
00:23:28,034 --> 00:23:31,775
Sanfan, who is the actual managing director of the

374
00:23:31,791 --> 00:23:35,194
winery. And José explained them the

375
00:23:35,499 --> 00:23:38,919
situation and the need of having a new winery. Mm-hmm.

376
00:23:39,418 --> 00:23:42,987
Obviously, if we were expanding the size of the

377
00:23:42,987 --> 00:23:46,459
vineyard, we definitely needed a new building because it was too small.

378
00:23:48,299 --> 00:23:51,922
So these were the 2 main, let's say— It was that

379
00:23:51,922 --> 00:23:54,848
premise because they, there were some,

380
00:23:55,816 --> 00:23:59,078
I've seen the progress of having first gone to Bordeaux in

381
00:23:59,078 --> 00:24:02,902
1993 where you couldn't really visit anywhere and it would

382
00:24:02,902 --> 00:24:06,629
take an act, you know, of the loi, you know, to get to

383
00:24:06,629 --> 00:24:08,977
visit. And now there's hospitality is much more— All over.

384
00:24:11,495 --> 00:24:15,166
Much more common. Yeah, yeah. More and more. But was that vision

385
00:24:15,214 --> 00:24:18,982
seen by then? Also, also. But, you know, they

386
00:24:18,998 --> 00:24:22,096
had the vision thanks to the project of the new winery, because

387
00:24:23,973 --> 00:24:27,709
the goal to develop enotourism, you have something to show. You

388
00:24:27,709 --> 00:24:31,195
need something to show to people because it's just like seeing a château,

389
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:35,459
a vineyard, and let's say classical cellar. Okay, everyone can do it.

390
00:24:36,071 --> 00:24:38,643
But by having this new winery, which is

391
00:24:39,155 --> 00:24:42,874
eco-sustainable, it's a one-of-a-kind new winery in the region and also in France

392
00:24:42,922 --> 00:24:46,657
right now. And I mean, also globally, this is something unique.

393
00:24:47,106 --> 00:24:50,824
So this is also, I mean, I hope people come to visit the winery

394
00:24:50,856 --> 00:24:53,870
thanks to the wine and because they know the wine first of all. Yeah. But

395
00:24:53,902 --> 00:24:57,428
then if they heard about the new winery, they want to see it.

396
00:24:57,573 --> 00:25:01,275
Or even if they don't, it's like, oh wow, this is, to be

397
00:25:01,339 --> 00:25:04,545
honest, it's spectacular. I mean, what do you want them to say when they come?

398
00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:08,703
Wow. We talk— Simple. It's a very French

399
00:25:08,703 --> 00:25:11,483
statement. But

400
00:25:13,251 --> 00:25:16,785
people go to travel. They may not even visit a winery, but let's say they're

401
00:25:16,785 --> 00:25:20,288
sitting in a little trattoria in Italy, and then they tell the

402
00:25:20,304 --> 00:25:23,859
story when they get home about the pasta or the pizza or the wine,

403
00:25:23,875 --> 00:25:27,707
whatever that they did. I wonder what they say about their

404
00:25:27,772 --> 00:25:31,161
visit to Cantina Gbram, the facility, the wine, the people, the

405
00:25:31,161 --> 00:25:33,763
hospitality. I mean, to be honest, first of all, the people,

406
00:25:35,466 --> 00:25:39,290
because without all of them, it's not possible to produce

407
00:25:39,322 --> 00:25:42,760
the wines we're producing now. It is not possible to be where we are right

408
00:25:42,776 --> 00:25:46,182
now. So first of all, it's people. And I mean, we have the same

409
00:25:46,471 --> 00:25:50,294
people for like 26 years or even more. So this is kind

410
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:54,156
of unique also as well to have like such longevity within

411
00:25:54,189 --> 00:25:58,039
the team. So first of all, the people, then quality of the

412
00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:01,672
wine. I mean, with Duclos, we have a special work around the back vintages of

413
00:26:01,688 --> 00:26:05,468
the winery. from the '90s, so

414
00:26:06,078 --> 00:26:09,850
that people say, okay, every time I'm opening a bottle, I'm not disappointed. I don't

415
00:26:09,850 --> 00:26:12,594
have any troubles with the corks and whatever. That's

416
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:17,119
also very, very important for us. Of course. So quality,

417
00:26:17,472 --> 00:26:20,618
quality is also one of the main things we are

418
00:26:21,485 --> 00:26:25,224
reputed for, and it's also very important. But, and the winery

419
00:26:25,256 --> 00:26:28,755
and the place, I mean, when you visit the winery, it's very unique. Like, you

420
00:26:28,755 --> 00:26:32,494
have this very unique château, Scottish roots. So

421
00:26:32,558 --> 00:26:36,295
when it is a bit foggy, You can think you're in Scotland, but

422
00:26:36,327 --> 00:26:39,973
you're not. And this fantastic new winery.

423
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:41,828
So everything is very special.

424
00:26:44,394 --> 00:26:48,160
It's a very unique place. But yeah, people first, quality of the wine

425
00:26:48,258 --> 00:26:51,414
for sure, and legitimacy

426
00:26:51,751 --> 00:26:54,563
of the winery and the place. I

427
00:26:54,563 --> 00:26:58,275
remember, obviously, we

428
00:26:58,275 --> 00:27:01,384
probably see things alike in that we've been doing this for a long time and

429
00:27:01,418 --> 00:27:05,260
we I tell this story before. I've been in this for 35

430
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:08,195
years and tasted wine every Tuesday. We discussed this,

431
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:12,894
but it wasn't because I was— for me, it was business most

432
00:27:13,182 --> 00:27:16,630
of my career in the beginning. Like, I was in business. I came from a

433
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:20,383
business background. My father was a merchant. I went to

434
00:27:20,415 --> 00:27:24,104
business school, all that. And so my idea was I got

435
00:27:24,184 --> 00:27:27,520
to sell some wine. Mm-hmm. But we have

436
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,360
The reason I tasted 100,000 wines in my career is because I wanted

437
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,600
to make sure I got the best value I could find for my customers. That

438
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,100
was the business part. Yeah. You made your job. I mean, you should get— At

439
00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:41,680
some point it hit me like, I'm selling more than just

440
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280
a liquid in a bottle. I'm selling some emotional connection to—

441
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,070
Emotion is the perfect word. You're saying emotion.

442
00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:52,360
Yeah. And so, and that's really hard. You can't

443
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:56,192
teach that. No, no, it's a feeling. I mean, when you taste

444
00:27:56,192 --> 00:27:59,287
wine, yeah, you're feeling something. And it could be with a bottle of

445
00:27:59,961 --> 00:28:03,489
$10, could be with a bottle of $20, could be like way more

446
00:28:03,489 --> 00:28:07,337
expensive than that. But it's— and you can explain it, it's emotion. So,

447
00:28:07,674 --> 00:28:11,410
you know, when we are traveling, we are trying to share something,

448
00:28:11,586 --> 00:28:15,018
but the only way to really experience it is to come at the winery

449
00:28:15,355 --> 00:28:19,203
and they're feeling something really special. So when you have

450
00:28:19,203 --> 00:28:22,876
these conversations with restaurateurs and wine shop owners,

451
00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:27,639
are we talking about elevation and pH and acid content and tannic

452
00:28:27,639 --> 00:28:30,719
acid? Are we talking about that, you know, that

453
00:28:30,927 --> 00:28:34,760
soulful character about this glass of wine? For sure. No, no.

454
00:28:35,081 --> 00:28:38,193
I mean, it, I mean, it's up to people. Some people want really

455
00:28:38,786 --> 00:28:42,491
technical talk and so on. So we can do that. But

456
00:28:42,491 --> 00:28:46,228
some people prefer just to like talk about wine. Um, show

457
00:28:46,228 --> 00:28:49,692
some pictures of the winery, ask many, many questions about the, the

458
00:28:49,692 --> 00:28:53,385
philosophy behind the building and so on. So, do you know the

459
00:28:53,466 --> 00:28:57,143
5, 10 first minutes, you are really paying attention to how they

460
00:28:57,143 --> 00:29:00,531
react to your sentences, and then you

461
00:29:00,595 --> 00:29:04,368
adapt your tasting with them, but it's mainly focused on the

462
00:29:04,368 --> 00:29:08,109
wine. I mean— That's a skill, by the way. It took me a while.

463
00:29:08,302 --> 00:29:11,851
Yes. It took me a while. Well, it does take a while, but since Clarisse

464
00:29:11,851 --> 00:29:14,709
is here and they used to do all these masterclasses at their old location,

465
00:29:15,369 --> 00:29:19,179
And somebody raised their hand and asked this question like, oh, what elevation is

466
00:29:19,179 --> 00:29:22,570
this? Or, you know, what's the pH? I'm like, I don't know that anybody really

467
00:29:22,634 --> 00:29:26,081
cares. They don't care. And just like the guy I saw at the market the

468
00:29:26,081 --> 00:29:28,970
other day, that's what he started with. And it just is

469
00:29:29,470 --> 00:29:33,182
glossing over instead of some kind of historical aspect

470
00:29:33,182 --> 00:29:35,006
or something about Bordeaux or something about

471
00:29:37,074 --> 00:29:40,822
what you're feeling. And you have to make it like fun.

472
00:29:41,096 --> 00:29:44,753
I mean, pH, Come on. Like, I don't know, do you think anybody

473
00:29:44,753 --> 00:29:48,310
remembers their physics class or their chemistry class? No, no, no, it's

474
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:52,045
boring. So no, no. So yeah, yeah. So we try to make it

475
00:29:52,109 --> 00:29:55,927
as fun as possible and, and yeah, just to exchange with

476
00:29:55,927 --> 00:29:58,128
them and, and yeah. But Bordeaux, you know,

477
00:29:59,729 --> 00:30:03,443
this is a, this is a tricky thing. Yeah. Well, it's tricky

478
00:30:03,443 --> 00:30:07,202
because you have brand, brand value, right? You, you want

479
00:30:07,234 --> 00:30:10,952
people to know when they buy this Cantenac Brown for their cellar

480
00:30:11,272 --> 00:30:15,118
so that in 20 years when they taste it, it reeks of Cantenac Brown.

481
00:30:15,182 --> 00:30:18,788
But then we have to deal with, as merchants and the

482
00:30:18,788 --> 00:30:22,217
marketplace, understanding what the consumer's looking for. Right.

483
00:30:22,794 --> 00:30:26,512
And make those tweaks. I mean, you're making a fresher wine

484
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,973
probably than you did 40 years ago. Not really.

485
00:30:30,806 --> 00:30:34,251
We always respected the DNA of the winery and,

486
00:30:34,492 --> 00:30:38,101
your appellation. So, I mean, even if I'm just there for, like,

487
00:30:38,181 --> 00:30:41,789
10 years, but they always respected the Margaux

488
00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:44,917
appellation. So the style of Margaux, they were not

489
00:30:45,398 --> 00:30:48,702
into pleasing any wine journalist or whatever.

490
00:30:49,552 --> 00:30:52,872
They really wanted to— it's really important for us to

491
00:30:53,482 --> 00:30:56,994
find that people recognize the DNA of Côte-Nicole years

492
00:30:57,347 --> 00:31:01,004
after year after year. So even if you obviously have the impact of the vintage

493
00:31:01,437 --> 00:31:05,063
on the wine, but year after year, you have to

494
00:31:05,063 --> 00:31:08,756
find the signature of the winery. So even if one day

495
00:31:09,462 --> 00:31:13,107
the trend was to be like super oaky or

496
00:31:13,155 --> 00:31:16,703
very concentrated and so on, this is not Comtesse Nagrand. So,

497
00:31:17,185 --> 00:31:21,022
okay, guys, do your thing, and we're gonna respect

498
00:31:21,022 --> 00:31:24,474
the Comtesse Nagrand DNA, and we're gonna

499
00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:28,729
continue to produce the wine we want to produce. I wonder if that,

500
00:31:29,194 --> 00:31:32,640
you know, that's the romantic side of wine, and we, we believe in that. And

501
00:31:32,656 --> 00:31:36,357
I wonder if that is the reason. Let's just take

502
00:31:36,421 --> 00:31:40,154
that as the foundation of why wine is still part of the human

503
00:31:40,667 --> 00:31:44,352
experience. Yeah. You know, and one of my greatest quotes from anyone

504
00:31:44,352 --> 00:31:47,605
ever on the show was with Florence Catillard when she said—

505
00:31:48,278 --> 00:31:51,402
and I asked something similar— and she said, well, really, it's welcome to

506
00:31:51,402 --> 00:31:55,136
civilization. And I thought, wow, because when

507
00:31:55,152 --> 00:31:57,875
you watch shows like Downton Abbey where, you know, in the

508
00:31:58,677 --> 00:32:02,141
hundreds of years ago where the wine service was

509
00:32:02,702 --> 00:32:06,343
part of the act, sort of. It was. And it should be today.

510
00:32:07,096 --> 00:32:10,785
Yeah. Maybe that's the foundation of why it's 8,000 years

511
00:32:10,785 --> 00:32:13,816
old or whatever number we've come up with. It hasn't changed.

512
00:32:14,970 --> 00:32:18,547
And by the way, canned wine is probably not going to be around forever. And

513
00:32:18,643 --> 00:32:21,786
bag-in-the-box is not going to be around forever, which I— I mean, bag-in-the-box

514
00:32:23,053 --> 00:32:26,809
is old. I mean, It's not you, but can he smell it? Well,

515
00:32:26,921 --> 00:32:30,598
but I'm very annoyed at my daughter, my middle daughter, because I

516
00:32:30,695 --> 00:32:34,436
opened the refrigerator the other day and there was a bag-in-the-box wine and it

517
00:32:34,436 --> 00:32:37,647
was Vino Rosso, some Italian thing. I'm like, what are you doing?

518
00:32:38,402 --> 00:32:42,063
Are you kidding me? No, he's not positive. No. No. But so let's just think

519
00:32:42,063 --> 00:32:45,627
about that for a second. If I had a woman sitting in the chair you're

520
00:32:45,627 --> 00:32:49,031
sitting in tell me that she was fairly certain

521
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,060
that You know, first growth Bordeauxs will be in a can soon.

522
00:32:52,930 --> 00:32:56,390
Really? Yeah, she said that. No, there's no way. I mean, you don't have even—

523
00:32:56,390 --> 00:32:59,990
But you couldn't. No, you can't. I mean, and, and I'm not, not sure

524
00:32:59,990 --> 00:33:02,870
also about the, the impact of the can on the wine. And we don't have

525
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:06,190
either screw cap in Bordeaux, so how you want to have cans? I mean, no,

526
00:33:06,190 --> 00:33:09,670
no. I think first, first it could be the screw cap and then probably

527
00:33:09,670 --> 00:33:13,090
cans. But no, no, no. Come on. Like, just respect the product.

528
00:33:13,090 --> 00:33:16,850
You guys respect yourself. But no. But maybe that's, maybe that is

529
00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:20,450
the— I mean, you have half bottles, you're not, Yeah, that's true. I mean, you're

530
00:33:20,450 --> 00:33:24,199
not forced to buy a full bottle. You can buy a half bottle. It's way

531
00:33:24,344 --> 00:33:27,773
better than the can. You know, I was— the experience of wine

532
00:33:28,110 --> 00:33:31,186
like this, like you're talking about, like that could never happen with a can. It

533
00:33:31,186 --> 00:33:34,215
can never happen with a bag in the box. You would never go to Tour

534
00:33:34,215 --> 00:33:37,228
d'Argent and have the guy pull out a bag and pull the thing, right? No.

535
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:41,266
Right. And so then, but that thought of that made me

536
00:33:41,266 --> 00:33:44,712
think of something, and this is probably the essence of what

537
00:33:45,417 --> 00:33:48,847
what you have in front of you. And that is, we were there in

538
00:33:48,847 --> 00:33:52,534
1993. My father, my mother, my wife, and I were celebrating

539
00:33:52,566 --> 00:33:56,397
something. We went to Tour d'Argent. My dad ordered— Wonderful cellar.

540
00:33:56,541 --> 00:34:00,260
Yeah. He ordered a '45 Lafite. '45 Lafite?

541
00:34:00,661 --> 00:34:04,268
Oh, wow. And the guy brought it up, and this ullage was high, and there

542
00:34:04,268 --> 00:34:07,634
was all kinds of stuff. And my dad said, you know, and my dad spoke

543
00:34:07,634 --> 00:34:10,776
French, he said, I'll tell you what, you open it. If it's bad, you buy

544
00:34:10,776 --> 00:34:13,099
it. If it's good, I buy it. The guy goes, no, I'm not doing that.

545
00:34:13,261 --> 00:34:17,038
He goes, no way. Nope. No, no. That's not happening.

546
00:34:17,770 --> 00:34:21,082
But the point I'm making is we ended up with a Coste d'Estournel, and

547
00:34:23,751 --> 00:34:27,499
that means something to me today. Like, that, that

548
00:34:27,531 --> 00:34:30,618
mark, you know, that etiquette means something to me. For sure.

549
00:34:30,988 --> 00:34:34,573
And isn't that one of the great vestiges of a bottle of wine

550
00:34:34,622 --> 00:34:37,945
like that? You're tasting history. Yeah. And that's never going to change. I don't I

551
00:34:37,945 --> 00:34:41,666
don't think. Never. And it doesn't have to. And maybe that's why you have to

552
00:34:41,714 --> 00:34:45,532
stick with— You have to. The DNA of the wine. It's really, really important.

553
00:34:45,644 --> 00:34:49,237
I mean, having the trust of consumers takes a while,

554
00:34:49,654 --> 00:34:53,247
and suddenly you have a new trend and you change it.

555
00:34:53,359 --> 00:34:57,000
Nope, you can't. No, you can't. You have to respect what, who you are,

556
00:34:57,530 --> 00:35:01,171
what you've produced the past years, and what you

557
00:35:01,283 --> 00:35:04,667
want to produce and that. And, and it, this is history. I mean, this is

558
00:35:04,683 --> 00:35:08,425
a 200-year-old winery. That's incredible. So yeah, you have

559
00:35:08,441 --> 00:35:12,280
to respect that. I mean, we are just living through and working there,

560
00:35:12,296 --> 00:35:15,750
but it's here for like 200 years and for

561
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:19,492
200 more years. So no, you have to respect it.

562
00:35:20,151 --> 00:35:23,973
It's a very specific, I mean, specific product, but

563
00:35:25,371 --> 00:35:28,969
no, it's a mix of like, we want to make wine

564
00:35:29,017 --> 00:35:32,660
more easier to understand and so on, but In the

565
00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:36,480
meantime, you also to have, like, to be, to make it

566
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,100
special. Does the, do the new owners bring everybody, the

567
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,480
winemakers, the directors, the export

568
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,080
directors, the ambassadors into a room on a regular

569
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,650
basis to say, this is what we're doing, here's what we're talking about?

570
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,820
Regular, not really, 'cause David is in

571
00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:57,360
Paris, so he's coming quite often at the winery, but

572
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,180
I don't have any, like, regular meetings with him because I'm traveling most of

573
00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:04,610
the time. Yeah, that's right. But he's coming, like, He's really into—

574
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:09,260
first of all, he's really into knowing the mechanism of

575
00:36:09,324 --> 00:36:12,916
Bordeaux, like the négociants, the winery, and the distributors inside.

576
00:36:13,253 --> 00:36:16,957
So he's coming every year for a few weeks to meet the

577
00:36:16,957 --> 00:36:20,453
négociants, to exchange with them, and to understand better the

578
00:36:20,453 --> 00:36:24,222
markets itself. He's coming for the blending session. So even if he's

579
00:36:24,222 --> 00:36:27,365
not into wine, he really wants to

580
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:31,665
understand why they prefer to use that tank and not that one,

581
00:36:31,762 --> 00:36:35,363
and so on, with the oenologist and so on. And we have

582
00:36:36,102 --> 00:36:39,865
very tough discussions around the primeur as

583
00:36:39,962 --> 00:36:43,391
well, because it's like a main— But that's changed, no? En

584
00:36:43,391 --> 00:36:46,466
primeur, it's lost a little. It was way more fun

585
00:36:48,172 --> 00:36:51,355
5 years ago than it is now, really,

586
00:36:53,209 --> 00:36:56,977
which is a shame. But It's tough and I'm

587
00:36:57,058 --> 00:37:00,536
pretty sure it's gonna come back. It's again, it's just a cycle, but

588
00:37:01,081 --> 00:37:04,768
it— I agree with that. It's tough. It's tough. I mean, I can

589
00:37:04,768 --> 00:37:08,615
sometimes, I can understand them. Sometimes I'm like, come on. Yeah. Just

590
00:37:08,615 --> 00:37:12,302
bring more energy in it. I think generationally, as you can

591
00:37:12,302 --> 00:37:16,054
see, there's so many different generations already. I'm a baby boomer. There's Gen Z, Gen

592
00:37:16,054 --> 00:37:19,484
Xs, and millennials, and they all look at all of this differently.

593
00:37:20,061 --> 00:37:23,861
And some of the generations like millennials, And Gen Zs in particular were

594
00:37:23,861 --> 00:37:27,372
saying, I don't want to do what my parents did. So if they saw their

595
00:37:27,372 --> 00:37:31,044
parents relishing over a bottle of wine at dinnertime and making this part of the

596
00:37:31,044 --> 00:37:34,716
whole ritual, to them, it's kind of disgusting. But it's

597
00:37:34,828 --> 00:37:38,163
the parents' way. Yes. But the humanity of wine,

598
00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:42,604
its connection to the earth, will bring them to the table one day.

599
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,907
It may take a little longer. It may not happen to all of them, but

600
00:37:45,987 --> 00:37:49,194
it will bring this cycle back, I think.

601
00:37:49,403 --> 00:37:52,981
Hopefully. Hopefully. A while. Yes. Because

602
00:37:53,254 --> 00:37:56,883
as you said, right now they're more into cans or non-alcoholic

603
00:37:56,883 --> 00:37:59,404
beverages or whatever.

604
00:37:59,757 --> 00:38:03,274
Neo-prohibitionism. Like America didn't have alcohol for what,

605
00:38:03,306 --> 00:38:06,935
12 years or something, but they were still drinking and making beer.

606
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:10,740
Band-Aids, Band-Aid. In Los Angeles, San Antonio Winery would

607
00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:14,545
truck grapes back to home winemakers. Really? Oh yeah.

608
00:38:14,610 --> 00:38:17,725
It was a big business for them. So, again,

609
00:38:17,837 --> 00:38:20,937
it's like, we are— Bordeaux already faced

610
00:38:21,852 --> 00:38:25,514
crisis, but one like this, never.

611
00:38:25,851 --> 00:38:28,838
Yeah, it's like really deep and it's— A

612
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,126
crise. Yeah, a crise. It's, it's, yeah,

613
00:38:33,142 --> 00:38:36,852
it's tough. But, I mean, Bordeaux

614
00:38:36,868 --> 00:38:40,465
will find a way. Bordeaux managed to reinvent itself like years after

615
00:38:40,465 --> 00:38:44,030
years and after years for the Bordeaux that we know today. But,

616
00:38:44,046 --> 00:38:47,543
um, in the meantime, it's tough. Well, you know, it's

617
00:38:48,494 --> 00:38:52,169
what's interesting, and I was just looking at some of these notes talking

618
00:38:52,201 --> 00:38:55,873
about— yeah, you should see what it says about you. All of that?

619
00:38:56,038 --> 00:38:59,306
Oh no, I'm not sure. The, um,

620
00:39:00,713 --> 00:39:04,497
the advent of marketing in, in the world of everything, you know,

621
00:39:05,322 --> 00:39:08,447
Wine of the Month Club, when I was running it, we were prolific digital marketers.

622
00:39:08,518 --> 00:39:12,235
I mean, we sent 33 million emails went my last year. Really?

623
00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:16,417
33 million emails. Oh, wow. But that was— I'm a direct-to-consumer company. I'm

624
00:39:16,721 --> 00:39:20,342
dealing with the consumer. Yeah. So you have to. But, you know, that

625
00:39:20,342 --> 00:39:23,915
kind of marketing and that kind of access to people is never

626
00:39:23,915 --> 00:39:27,567
gonna go away. It's gonna be even more complicated with

627
00:39:27,615 --> 00:39:31,108
AI and everything. And I bring this up for a reason. My niece has

628
00:39:31,140 --> 00:39:34,825
started a salad dressing line. She— her goal was to

629
00:39:34,825 --> 00:39:38,654
become an influencer in the world of food and wine, food and

630
00:39:38,654 --> 00:39:42,163
salad dressing. And she's— making a go of it using only

631
00:39:42,740 --> 00:39:46,329
social media. Okay. Eventually, though, she learned

632
00:39:46,666 --> 00:39:50,095
that you have to go stand at the market and dip your salad dressing in

633
00:39:50,832 --> 00:39:54,582
to have people taste it. Right. But I'm wondering, and I haven't seen

634
00:39:54,614 --> 00:39:58,188
this a lot, the Bordelais taking on

635
00:39:59,181 --> 00:40:02,530
a robust social network digital marketing campaign.

636
00:40:03,171 --> 00:40:06,847
It's coming. Is that counterintuitive to the DNA of

637
00:40:07,105 --> 00:40:10,703
Bordeaux? Tough question, though.

638
00:40:10,832 --> 00:40:14,107
Really tough question because you can, I mean, you can also see Bordeaux

639
00:40:15,011 --> 00:40:17,781
as just one identity because you have different, like,

640
00:40:18,592 --> 00:40:22,402
levels of wineries with teams and so on. And not

641
00:40:22,467 --> 00:40:23,180
everyone is really well

642
00:40:23,697 --> 00:40:27,360
equipped in terms of social

643
00:40:27,393 --> 00:40:31,185
media, in terms of means and everything. But yeah,

644
00:40:31,266 --> 00:40:35,053
it's probably like the Let's say the weakness of Bordeaux

645
00:40:35,502 --> 00:40:39,206
is the communication and, and, and the info and

646
00:40:39,206 --> 00:40:42,093
social media and so on. But it's again, it's really changing. Do you think there's

647
00:40:42,093 --> 00:40:45,893
resistance to it because it's contemporary and it's not— No,

648
00:40:45,957 --> 00:40:49,758
it was probably years ago. But, you know, one

649
00:40:49,854 --> 00:40:53,542
thing helped us, COVID. So we were— COVID. Yeah,

650
00:40:53,622 --> 00:40:57,263
we were forced to— COVID is not— Oh, great. I just love

651
00:40:57,263 --> 00:41:01,015
saying it. But we were— I mean, it was not possible to travel,

652
00:41:01,095 --> 00:41:04,639
to meet people and so on. So we were kind of forced to

653
00:41:04,687 --> 00:41:08,278
like use the social medias to share with people.

654
00:41:09,416 --> 00:41:12,846
I mean, we learned with the COVID to be honest, how to make videos,

655
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,415
to pay more attention to details on the pictures and so on. So like, do

656
00:41:17,415 --> 00:41:21,214
you put— I mean, podcasts, not really, not yet. Next year. No, I

657
00:41:21,214 --> 00:41:23,747
think that's coming. But videos, I mean,

658
00:41:24,741 --> 00:41:28,476
if you look at the Instagram accounts, I mean,

659
00:41:28,732 --> 00:41:32,580
if you look before COVID and now, like, totally changed. So you had

660
00:41:32,580 --> 00:41:36,040
like zero video before, but now it's like probably every

661
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,760
2 weeks or every one year, at least one video. So it

662
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,360
changed. Unfortunately, the way these companies work, if you

663
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,160
don't use them regularly, they don't reward you and they reward the

664
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,460
people that are on all the time. And I'm a victim of this. I don't

665
00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:54,180
post enough for the show. And then when you finally do go post, nobody

666
00:41:54,180 --> 00:41:57,760
ever sees it because you haven't been active. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That seems a little

667
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,600
unfair. But now it changed really. Like Baidu is way more into communication

668
00:42:02,460 --> 00:42:05,735
planning to promote Bordeaux, uh, on

669
00:42:05,784 --> 00:42:09,092
different, like, um, yeah, websites, um,

670
00:42:09,236 --> 00:42:12,801
medias, whatever. But it, it could be also like social

671
00:42:12,801 --> 00:42:16,398
medias but also paper, because you also have to look for— I

672
00:42:16,398 --> 00:42:19,963
mean, we have plenty of consumers, could be, I mean, not too much, but young

673
00:42:19,995 --> 00:42:23,335
people. So it's going to be on the social medias. Um,

674
00:42:24,074 --> 00:42:27,816
adults like parents and so on, grandfather, grandparents, it's more

675
00:42:27,864 --> 00:42:31,201
paper. So you have to be on both, actually. Do you guys keep your own

676
00:42:31,874 --> 00:42:35,640
database of like visitors and— At the winery?

677
00:42:35,929 --> 00:42:39,727
Yeah, we do have, and we have a project for the

678
00:42:39,727 --> 00:42:42,499
future. It's an interesting

679
00:42:43,236 --> 00:42:47,002
irony about it because like this new brand out that Gallo just bought,

680
00:42:47,018 --> 00:42:50,768
which is called Winey Baby, it's about Gen Zers and they have a

681
00:42:50,768 --> 00:42:54,229
crown cap on this really— what's interesting to me is that one of the features

682
00:42:54,229 --> 00:42:58,060
of this wine is and it clearly has nothing to do with what's in

683
00:42:58,060 --> 00:43:01,720
the bottle, right? Is that you can remove the label and

684
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:05,460
write on the back who you're with, whatever. It's

685
00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:09,200
just details of the experience. And I thought to myself, my dad used to

686
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,940
do that every day. We have a cellar book at home

687
00:43:12,940 --> 00:43:16,020
somewhere where he's taking all the labels off. Exactly. Yeah. You have the tag and

688
00:43:16,020 --> 00:43:19,040
you have the name. Yeah. It's not new. No, it's not. It's not. My dad

689
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,240
used to do the same. And I kind of, when someone offer me a bottle,

690
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,420
I'm doing the same as well. So yeah. And I wrote a little app for

691
00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:28,820
myself. But again, as you can see, like for example, Temple Forest, the new winery,

692
00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:32,500
it's the old way of doing construction because it's with

693
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:36,320
compressed earth and wood. So it's an old way of doing

694
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,580
it, right? But brand new now. So it's the old way of

695
00:43:39,580 --> 00:43:43,300
like, it's like you guys didn't invent this, naming your bottle, but make

696
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:46,770
it a 2026 version. Yeah, that's right.

697
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:50,920
I wanna say you didn't invent it. We did this. Yeah. I was like, oh,

698
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,240
I have an idea. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Really great. We've done that for

699
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,560
years. I was talking yesterday with somebody about changing the language of wine, and we're

700
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,397
outta time here, I wanna bring this up because one of

701
00:44:01,397 --> 00:44:05,216
the issues that people like to talk about, and it's sort of,

702
00:44:05,793 --> 00:44:08,472
you hear less about it now, but for a little while, a couple years ago,

703
00:44:08,537 --> 00:44:11,152
you heard a lot of, we gotta change the language of wine. And there's, of

704
00:44:11,184 --> 00:44:14,762
course, Gary Vee, who would talk about the wine tastes like, you know, Captain Crunch

705
00:44:15,275 --> 00:44:18,805
or, you know, Lucky Charms. Lucky Charms. And I always thought to

706
00:44:18,805 --> 00:44:22,559
myself, you know, my dad and I, my dad spoke differently about

707
00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:24,837
wine the way I do, but— Sure.

708
00:44:26,572 --> 00:44:29,850
I'm just as confused listening to somebody say this tastes like Lucky Charms.

709
00:44:30,428 --> 00:44:33,160
What's the taste of Lucky Charms? I didn't

710
00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:37,337
understand. Yeah, me neither. And I've— one of the

711
00:44:37,337 --> 00:44:40,936
conversations I've had was, you know, if you look at a menu

712
00:44:41,434 --> 00:44:45,194
at a restaurant and it says this has, you know, essence of rose petals

713
00:44:45,242 --> 00:44:48,905
and raspberry, I don't really know what it tastes like. Do you

714
00:44:48,905 --> 00:44:52,340
ever try any roses? Yeah, I mean, I can't. I can't

715
00:44:52,340 --> 00:44:55,800
determine that I wanna buy that bottle based on somebody's word.

716
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,600
Exactly. And this is their taste, it's not yours. That's right. That's their taste. So

717
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,240
you can, it's like really to write tasting notes is

718
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,960
super personal. Yes. And I mean, we see that when

719
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,620
we're doing tasting at the winery. You

720
00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:14,460
can, like, when we share our tasting notes, we never write the same thing. We're

721
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:17,900
like 4 to 5 and we never put the same

722
00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:21,420
things. Even like, it was like, okay, let's do like some plus or minus, like

723
00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:24,483
just to see, if we can have a common

724
00:45:25,398 --> 00:45:29,170
way of talking about the wines. And even that— Still doesn't work. Never worked.

725
00:45:29,731 --> 00:45:32,973
Embarrassingly, when I used to do a lot of port tasting,

726
00:45:33,968 --> 00:45:37,724
very prolific port collector in Los Angeles, he just sold his

727
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:41,254
collection, but he was probably top 5 in the world. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he

728
00:45:41,254 --> 00:45:44,175
was a good friend. He used to run a wine company. Anyway, he would invite

729
00:45:44,175 --> 00:45:47,193
me and wasn't cheap, but I would write these

730
00:45:48,348 --> 00:45:51,980
sentence or 2 About the ports. About the ports.

731
00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:55,640
You're talking about ports in the 1800s, in early 1900s. Really,

732
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,940
really. And then the guy, the expert who's with us,

733
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,740
Mr. Symington or Darryl Cordy or somebody, they're writing

734
00:46:02,740 --> 00:46:06,560
like a page. And I was always embarrassed to show my notes because

735
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,360
I wasn't getting anything. Sorry.

736
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,920
Yeah. But I mean, you've done the right way. That's the wine geek part of

737
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,694
it. read one page? No

738
00:46:17,694 --> 00:46:21,483
one. I mean, even for us, when you are one journalist and

739
00:46:21,483 --> 00:46:25,160
you have the scores, we are paying attention to the scores. Yes, right. The

740
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,516
tasting notes. My mom's like, what did they write about? Ooh,

741
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:31,920
I don't know. Do you guys chase scores or do you

742
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,677
submit them? No, not really. And to be

743
00:46:35,677 --> 00:46:39,403
honest, it's really tough to handle for a winery, especially

744
00:46:39,467 --> 00:46:43,287
when you have your difficult year, you know, that

745
00:46:43,303 --> 00:46:46,501
you're going to be judged on, you know, on

746
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:50,839
different, like, pages because the year is

747
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,926
tough and so on and so on. So you already know in your mind that

748
00:46:53,926 --> 00:46:57,399
it's going to be something. So yeah, and when the

749
00:46:57,399 --> 00:47:00,893
scores are, like, published and, oh well, it's that sometimes it's tough.

750
00:47:01,977 --> 00:47:05,654
I think they're losing a little ground, but there are still people

751
00:47:05,686 --> 00:47:08,447
that follow them. And I like to tell people,

752
00:47:09,651 --> 00:47:12,980
If you're chasing scores and there's a 95, let's say you got a 95 on

753
00:47:12,980 --> 00:47:16,830
a Cabernet from Napa, that is a completely

754
00:47:16,942 --> 00:47:20,374
different wine than a 95 from a Canary Island, you know,

755
00:47:20,873 --> 00:47:24,706
least on Negro. Totally different. Totally different. You can't compare. Yeah, you can't. You

756
00:47:24,706 --> 00:47:28,273
can't say, I like it. There are plenty of them. They

757
00:47:28,273 --> 00:47:31,840
have different tastes and so on. So who you can

758
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,501
rely on? I mean, if you look like, Yeah,

759
00:47:35,566 --> 00:47:39,226
taking the scores of like probably 2 or 3 wine journalists, and

760
00:47:39,580 --> 00:47:42,920
after probably 2 or 3, you can see, okay, I'm way more close to his

761
00:47:43,032 --> 00:47:46,532
palate too, and not that one. Okay. But again, it's

762
00:47:46,805 --> 00:47:50,498
their taste at a certain time, certain moment, a

763
00:47:50,675 --> 00:47:54,512
certain hour. Again, you know, so no, it's,

764
00:47:54,593 --> 00:47:58,286
uh, it's, uh, not an easy part of our job to handle,

765
00:47:58,510 --> 00:48:02,360
but, uh, that's part of it. My wife has a way

766
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,980
more sensitive palate than I do. She's a woman. Her nose is way

767
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:09,580
more sensitive. She's a woman. That's why the size of her nose. I know. And

768
00:48:09,580 --> 00:48:12,760
then I'm doing this event next Saturday. It's at 9 in the morning. I'm gonna

769
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,440
tell 'em, your palate's actually best right now from 9 to

770
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,860
11. And the window at 10, 12 to taste is like

771
00:48:18,860 --> 00:48:22,100
perfect. Yeah. Well, we're outta time, but I gotta finish with

772
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:25,760
this quiz. And it's, we've discussed

773
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,299
this briefly, but this is a book by Dr. Murray. medical

774
00:48:29,315 --> 00:48:32,508
doctor from France. He's also a holistic doctor, a

775
00:48:32,910 --> 00:48:36,633
homeopathic doctor. This is the English version. I have the French version.

776
00:48:36,681 --> 00:48:40,308
Wine is the best medicine. I love the title. So he went through a bunch

777
00:48:40,308 --> 00:48:42,860
of human ailments, maladies, and

778
00:48:43,438 --> 00:48:46,856
prescribes wine. That's a good way.

779
00:48:47,033 --> 00:48:50,692
Yeah. I mean, I suppose it may not cure anything, but you're going to feel

780
00:48:50,724 --> 00:48:54,271
better anyway. I mean, one glass of red a day

781
00:48:54,351 --> 00:48:57,336
keeps the doctor away, something like that.

782
00:48:57,780 --> 00:49:00,550
So we're going to talk about— I'm going to give you 3 choices. And just

783
00:49:00,550 --> 00:49:03,750
so that you don't understand, there's no pressure here because most

784
00:49:03,750 --> 00:49:07,110
people, you know, 2/3 of the people get it wrong, right? Oh,

785
00:49:07,110 --> 00:49:10,830
okay. So really, but the point, like the

786
00:49:10,830 --> 00:49:14,069
Master of Wine test, which is not only do you have to answer the question,

787
00:49:14,110 --> 00:49:17,810
but you're supposed to tell them why you answered the question. Oh, okay. Why?

788
00:49:17,810 --> 00:49:21,350
Okay. Oh. And then there's a dosage factor as well. But this question— So we're

789
00:49:21,350 --> 00:49:25,098
going to talk about nervous depression. Okay. In nervous

790
00:49:25,098 --> 00:49:28,871
depression, you could consume a Côte de

791
00:49:28,871 --> 00:49:32,580
Beaune, a dry champagne, or

792
00:49:32,949 --> 00:49:36,707
a Médoc red. I mean, if you can ask me that, I mean,

793
00:49:36,899 --> 00:49:40,689
Médoc red or champagne, it's tough to— You like champagne? Who

794
00:49:40,769 --> 00:49:43,739
doesn't? Bien sûr. Who doesn't?

795
00:49:43,884 --> 00:49:46,902
Ballet. I mean,

796
00:49:49,207 --> 00:49:52,950
Nervous depression? Yeah, nervous depression. I

797
00:49:52,983 --> 00:49:56,669
will say dry champagne, but I'm

798
00:49:56,782 --> 00:50:00,421
not sure. Like, all the bubbles and so on are really good for the

799
00:50:01,407 --> 00:50:05,119
spirit and the brain and so on. I have to say Médoc red. I

800
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:08,812
mean, come on. Or Margaux. Well, that was right. I set

801
00:50:08,812 --> 00:50:12,303
you up. It's Médoc red. Really? Yes.

802
00:50:13,323 --> 00:50:17,060
I mean, I always include the region of where the guest

803
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:18,889
came from just to give them a fighting chance. And you did it.

804
00:50:23,093 --> 00:50:26,720
And for what reason is it? The doctor says, we cannot ignore the great

805
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,879
disease of this century, a century of almost daily progress and

806
00:50:29,879 --> 00:50:32,640
constant, fragile, although fragile,

807
00:50:33,392 --> 00:50:36,952
improvements in our standard of living. The deficiency

808
00:50:37,017 --> 00:50:40,134
sometimes— here it goes— psychophants.

809
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:44,900
We have never used so many artificial tranquilizers and tonics as we do

810
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:48,333
now. This is 1974. Can you imagine that? We

811
00:50:48,333 --> 00:50:51,801
complacently proclaim the benefits of

812
00:50:51,849 --> 00:50:55,189
industrial technocratic civilization and earn

813
00:50:55,943 --> 00:50:59,331
unheard-of profits for its promoters and sycophants.

814
00:50:59,941 --> 00:51:02,607
Well, this is pretty complicated.

815
00:51:03,891 --> 00:51:06,910
Oh, why? The glycerin it contains

816
00:51:06,926 --> 00:51:10,394
combines in the intestine with the

817
00:51:10,394 --> 00:51:13,541
phosphates of the fermented grape juice to form glycerol

818
00:51:13,541 --> 00:51:17,178
phosphates of natural lime. Hmm. Which have

819
00:51:17,227 --> 00:51:20,929
tonic virtues and which do not interfere with the functionality integrity of

820
00:51:20,929 --> 00:51:24,681
the nervous system. Okay. I'm not sure what he just

821
00:51:24,681 --> 00:51:28,223
said. How many, how much do we have? What's the

822
00:51:28,304 --> 00:51:29,893
dosage of this Medoc Red?

823
00:51:33,012 --> 00:51:36,823
Oh, oh, 2 glasses, 1 glass?

824
00:51:37,033 --> 00:51:40,780
Yeah, that's pretty good. 1 or 2 glasses before and during meals. So in other

825
00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:44,020
words, a bottle a day. Gives the doctor

826
00:51:44,020 --> 00:51:47,820
away. That's right. So you got that part right. Anyway, I

827
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:50,180
always have a lot of fun with this. And it's been such a— Since when

828
00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:53,940
do you have this book? You know, I found this in my dad's library.

829
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,280
Oh, cool. So he's had it for many years. My dad was a

830
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,820
pharmacist, chemist by trade. So— That's why. He thought this was pretty

831
00:52:00,820 --> 00:52:04,600
interesting. I mean, it is. And you can— there are some YouTube

832
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,380
videos of this doctor talking about this. Oh, really? Okay. If you Google Dr. Bredesen.

833
00:52:08,380 --> 00:52:11,470
I'll have a look at it. So what an honor to have you here, and

834
00:52:11,470 --> 00:52:14,770
I hope a successful trip the rest of the— Thank you. But thank you for

835
00:52:14,770 --> 00:52:17,870
this opportunity. It was lovely. You have another couple of weeks, she says. 3 more

836
00:52:17,870 --> 00:52:21,490
weeks. Just the beginning. Yeah. No, that's

837
00:52:21,490 --> 00:52:24,550
cool. And you're gonna— where are you gonna depart the United States from? New

838
00:52:24,550 --> 00:52:28,390
York? Chicago. Chicago. Yeah. At the end of the

839
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:32,170
month. So plenty of things to do. Bonne chance.

840
00:52:32,170 --> 00:52:35,726
Merci beaucoup. And when do you plan to visit Bordeaux? Well,

841
00:52:35,950 --> 00:52:39,753
I'm supposed to go to Armenia on November 8th to

842
00:52:39,769 --> 00:52:43,315
shoot some shows. I have— I do TV shows for

843
00:52:43,315 --> 00:52:46,973
Armenian Wine Trade. Over there? Yeah. Oh, cool. They're actually pretty interesting, kind of

844
00:52:47,470 --> 00:52:51,064
Anthony Bourdain stuff. And then we're gonna— I can't even get

845
00:52:51,321 --> 00:52:54,979
anywhere near Paris without going to Paris. And I thought we'd jump on the

846
00:52:55,187 --> 00:52:58,588
train and head down to Bordeaux and see what's going on. Yeah, please do. But

847
00:52:58,781 --> 00:53:01,291
for sure, we'll go. We're gonna be at Wine Paris and So I'll see you

848
00:53:01,291 --> 00:53:05,062
there. Yeah. Or at the winery. Yeah, we'll come to the winery for sure.

849
00:53:05,143 --> 00:53:08,380
Yeah, please, please come anytime. Thank you. Cheers.

850
00:53:08,817 --> 00:53:09,028
Cheers.