What Does 700 Years of Tuscan Wine Taste Like? Discover the Bindi Sergardi Story. Meet Alessandra Bindi Sergardi.

0:00 And I strongly believe that the love for wine is not going to change because it's something that is good for your body. It's good for your mind. It's good for your heart. It gives you reasons of thinking of beautiful Toscana, beautiful Siena, your trip with your loved one, the tower of Siena's cathedral, the frescoes of Beccafumi, of Michelangelo. This is life. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and we are in studio today. Gonna have a conversation with Alessandra Bindi Sagardi. How was that? Perfect. Pretty good. I would add Casini.

0:55 Casini. Yes. It's not such a beautiful day as usual here today. Heavy rains, but, uh, We're glad you're here. You drove across town to get here. Was it difficult? No, it was perfect with such a great companionship. No, no, chauffeur. No, no, no. Well, that's not a negative term. It's just a term. Josh, or I mean, master sommelier. We can talk about wine all the time. We didn't this morning at 8 AM, but there's many conversations that we can have. When you walked in, we both said we know each other, and who knows what path we crossed. The wine tasting, maybe with Bartholomew Broadbent, some event that took place.

1:36 Bartholomew is our beloved importer. We're great friends, and that helps a lot the business. Of course. And Broadbent Selection is a selection of family wineries, great wines, great quality, great people. We have a fun relationship, Bartholomew and I, only because family history, you know, lineage. He took over for his father, so to speak. I did the same, though my father sold me the company. Just kidding. He would tell you— Mine tried. He would tell you he only charged you a dollar, but that wasn't true. And then my father— I still have my paddle here somewhere from a couple of Hubline auctions that my dad bought from his father. And so there's this great relationship, and he's such a humble guy anyway. He is, right? How important is that to you in your business with family relationship? Fundamental. Fundamental, yes.

2:36 Uh, you have good business only with people you like, and it's not a marketing phrase, and it's not an empty phrase. It's, it's, it's true. I think you're right. And Bartholomew is also a hard worker. He has a great heart. He has a great team of people. And this is the result. I come and travel because I like to work with— Yeah, this is quite a trip you're on. How long is this going to be? Almost 2 weeks. And it's a mix of many factors. So every day I change city. And I— that's just a whirlwind. It is, you know, that's just exhausting. And you look so fresh and lively this morning. It's all about mindset.

3:25 It's all about mindset. And I'm Tuscany. I'm from Siena. I'm from Tuscany. I'm from a very hard soil, very stony. And I have examples in our family where determination, uh, is key. Not the only factor, but it's key. So if you want to achieve— Well, if you're 23rd, what'd you say, 23rd generation? Yes. The winery going back to the 1300s, wouldn't it only take backbone and strength and perseverance to get that far? I mean— Oh, stars must align as well, but of course they're not enough. You have to really work hard.

4:08 Of course, if you look at the centuries, how did we get— how do we have almost 700 years of history? And, of course, it's a mix of factors. There's not only one answer. There are many— Of course. Many things. Let's say until the beginning of the 1900s, in Italy, you had, let's say, the passage from one generation to the other to the eldest male. So somehow it made it easier to— for wineries even, or for properties to be kept in one single family. Because why? Because there was a plan in place already? That was our culture, which changed. And then every child had the right to inherit, and that of course, changed many things.

5:08 But in our case, what happened really was that— okay, actually, let's go a step back. So let's say that until World War II, the whole economy of Italy was based on agriculture. After World War II, there was a problem that food started costing nothing. We started importing flour from Canada, from United States. And so the food that was produced on Italy's land— and let's talk even about Tuscany since it's our land— started costing nothing because you could import products that cost less on the market. Hmm.

6:01 As a result, everybody started abandoning the countryside. And slowly but surely, sharecropping ended. In that period of time, all the owners of land started selling the land because instead of having something from the land, it was a cost. And that happened to 90% of the landowners. Vineyards, wheat, corn, rice, whatever. Everything. Consider that vineyards was very different in 1940s and 1950s. They were not as you see them today.

6:43 They were part of the agriculture. They were part of the food. Wine was food. And we might go back. We want that to happen. We're trying to do that. That's why we're here. Um, World War II, our family, my grandfather Alessandro Casini, and that's why I asked to add the Casini. Yes, because the Bindi Sedgari comes from my grandmother. So it's the mix of, of the families. Um, went to Russia and unfortunately he never came back. He died digging his own grave. And so my grandmother was alone. She was a widow. Not only, she was orphaned from her father's side who died— her father died when she was 17 years old.

7:35 Wow. So she was alone with a 1-year-old child, my father, with this situation where everybody was selling. Nobody was doing agriculture. She had land. She had land. What was she growing? Uh, wheat. Oh, wheat. Uh, barley. Uh, wine, of course. That's part of the staple. Uh, yes. And she said, I'm not giving up. I'm not gonna sell. Well, she did sell one property. Now it's a very famous winery. Yeah, I wish we had it back, but that's okay. Called Castello di Ama. Um, she sold Dama, but she didn't sell the rest. And, uh, it's thanks to her that we are now at the 23rd generation because again, many generations stopped after World War II. Mm-hmm.

8:23 Because everybody sold. That's a really interesting factor to, uh, the history of the, of wine. And then that evokes so many questions about, you know, your terroir, your personal terroir, the terroir of the family. And I always, contend that these experiences, particularly from the war, show up in the wine, not like in tannic acid or something, but that outlook on life, that struggle that went through, the things that you had to do to survive are part of the terroir, of the culture of the wine, are they not? Absolutely. I think of my father and I think also of my grandmother.

9:04 Waste never existed. Right. Not like today where we just— No, you just throw. You don't repair. I mean, we always repair. If you look at the old machinery that we had, they were all full of repairs. Today you don't repair. It's much cheaper to just throw away. But is it really cheaper? That's the question. Then how did you land here as a CEO or COO of the company? Certainly there's that patriarchal part of Europe, Italy, France. You explained it earlier. Were you always gonna do this? I had no idea.

9:46 I'm very lucky. How's that possible after 23 generations? 'Cause I'm very lucky. I'm a 7/11. Oh, okay. And I have an American mother born and raised in Boston, Joan Coburn, who set very strict rules. So we had to leave. First of all, they didn't expose us to anything in terms of work, in terms of what we were doing. Land zero. 5 children. I'm number 3. Secondly, they sent us away at the age of 18 saying, go find your way. If you want to study, we're going to support you. Not much. Otherwise, go and find your way and work. And I think that gave us an incredible freedom of choice. And this is why what I do, what I do, and I do it with an incredible determination. And I love what I do. I love waking up in the morning and seeing the land of Mocheni and seeing Bindi Sergardi as a family continuing producing wine and seeing vineyards outside and seeing people coming and doing tours at our winery. This is pure joy to me. Yeah. was my choice. So not all 5 children want— made the same choice. Luckily, another sister, number 5, Madalena, joined the

11:19 winery 4 years ago, and now the 2 of us are managing and running the company. Now, is that unusual in your— it is unusual in general, but I mean, is it in America, for instance? wine, women in wine, 25% probably in the winemaking side, but the executive side is probably like 7%. And so is this, is this really groundbreaking in, in your part of the world? It was possibly not as much today. I have a lot of good friends that are, that manage wineries and that are women. When I started 20 years ago, it was much harder. Uh, much, much harder.

12:07 But now, luckily, especially I think in the wine world for some reason. You know, there's a Château Bailly in, in the Graves. She is run by Véronique Sanders-Van Beek. And she will say that— and there's an American owner as well— and says he had the audacity to hire a woman. to do this. And you're talking like 20 years ago, which is, you know, probably pretty accurate. So the adjectives, uh, uh, for Bindi Sergardi: audacity, authenticity, integrity. So there you go. So that's interesting. Your mom's from Boston.

12:48 Yes. And hence why your English is so good. And you— I wish it were better. Oh, don't worry. She, she, every time we're together, if we speak in English, because we do speak in Italian, Um, she'll correct me. But she had to learn Italian then. Yes. And her Italian is great. It's perfect. From her— from your dad? Uh, well— How did she learn Italian? She, she's a very smart person, first of all. Uh, she studied Italian literature in Harvard. She— that's where she graduated, in Radcliffe. Uh, so she had this love for Italian. Wow. So she studied Latin, she studied Italian, and that's what made her go and have a year abroad in Florence. That's where she met my dad.

13:35 And it's actually— The old story. It's actually a fun story how they met because my dad— so you can imagine, the only child, the only grandchild. So all the attention on my dad, the future. Oops. My grandmother was always checking on him and controlling him. And of course, she never liked whoever my dad dated because it's just normal. That's right. So my dad was dating a girl and she's like, okay, how do we get rid of this girl? Oh, and she heard about a bridge tournament with international girls attending. So her plan was, okay, so Niccolò, the name of my father, will go there, will meet a beautiful American girl, start dating her, dump his girlfriend. What? Yay. Then eventually the American girl will go back to United States and my plan will just work out perfectly.

14:47 Geez, she had it all thought out. She had it all thought out. And so she went up to my dad and said, okay, please go to this, uh, bridge tournament I want you to attend. It's at a friend's house, blah blah blah. And, and he knew exactly where she was going. Do you play bridge? Yes. Okay, because that would help. Yes, yes. Uh, so he said, okay, give me the list of the attendees. So he looks at the list and knowing my grandmother very well, said, I will go and I will marry Joan Coburn. By what, a picture or a description of who she was? Allora, he watched the movie The Magnificent Seven, and there's this famous actor, James Coburn. James Coburn. And he just picked it out, like— Oh, that's hilarious. That— knowing that— That's really funny. Marrying an American girl, I mean, not possible for my grandmother. So, and it happened. How amazing. It's quite amazing. You know, I'm, I'm of Armenian descent and, you know, there's a very thick ethnic thread that goes through our family life. Do you think that's an ethnic thing that the grandmother or the mother is saying, look, we're gonna move you in a direction that we want you to go in when it comes to your spouse or your future partner? It's culture. And it has changed.

16:07 Yeah. But it's just, it was just part of the Italian culture. And what did she do when she found out that she was going to marry a Coburn from Massachusetts, no less? Okay. So, so funny because undoubtedly my mother is exceptional person. Yes. And so they were fighting with my father one day for something else, on something else. at the end of, of the argument, said, and you know what, you are even lucky. Because of course he wasn't going to— he chose a very, uh, so he was lucky.

16:50 Yeah, that's— well, of course. But at the beginning, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy because there were 2 worlds so apart. So when my Italian Sorry, my American grandparents visited my grandmother. Of course, we're talking about the late '60s, and initially in the countryside, one day you have water, the next day you don't have water. One day, one hour you have electricity, the hour later you don't have electricity. So apparently my gramps, so my grandfather, came out, there's no water. Oh my goodness, there's no light. I'm like, where are we? But that was Italy. That's just the way it was. And I grew up perfectly well. But that begs this question of, and I've seen it happen a lot, not only in my culture, but other cultures, even in Italy. We were in Garda and we were staying in a home there. And the daughter, who was a beautiful woman, had fallen in love with a San Diego man.

17:52 They came to San Diego and it lasted like weeks because culturally, there was so much difference that they just couldn't reconcile it. And so here's one that's very successful. Yeah, how did they do that? How did that happen? And was he going back and forth? And we haven't even talked about wine yet, so we have to get to that subject pretty soon. But I was intrigued by this story because my grandfather and his wife were brothers and sisters that were married to each other. So my grandfather's brother married 2 sisters as well. And so you're talking about on the Mayflower, which is pretty authentic American. Yes, 2 sisters were on the Mayflower, and 15 years later, uh, 2 brothers, the Coburn brothers, arrived in the United States and married the 2 sisters. That's crazy. So that's how far back our American roots go in the United States. That's phenomenal.

18:44 I mean, it really is a phenomenal cultural chasm to cross. See? And then, uh, survive 23 generations in a business that's very difficult and very slow. You know, it's just a slow-moving entity. And good. Now I appreciate that, that it's slow. But do you think that's absolutely what it has to take, and particularly in today's environment, that we have passion like yours and your sister's to evolve a— the proper culture of wine? Because I think wine culture is separating from humanity a little bit. Um, I think it's true for every business. Yeah. I think it's a rule for life. Well, it's true. That's the first thing. Um, yes, especially if you're not a corporation. Uh, if you are a medium-sized winery— so we have 100 hectares, so 250 acres of vineyards and 800 hectares in total of land, and we still do wheat, barley.

19:49 Really? Wow. Yes, you can say wow. Was that ever interrupted since the war? Uh, no. The staples? Always wheat, barley? No, we continued. Maybe we produced more, maybe we produced less, but we never stopped. Never stopped. That's phenomenal. It is phenomenal. And let's not go into what the future will be in agriculture in Italy, because otherwise it's a 10-hour talk. Yeah. But so, yes, you need a lot of motivation. It's tough. It's a tough world. But tell me one thing, one sector which is easy. And I want to say this, now that you make me think about it. Um, there's a lot of big companies, investment funds, so not even a company, funds that invested in wine because at a certain point— In Italy, not in America, of course, but in Italy as well? Absolutely. I have neighbors, uh, neighbor wineries that were bought by funds or just investments.

21:04 And they were sure that done. Nope, it's not easy. And the— in wine, I think— You're talking about corporate Italy came to the wine country and they realized, oh, this is not so simple. Um, not necessarily, uh, Italian corporation. Any corporation. Sorry. Yeah, just to specify because usually they're foreigners, but, and foreign funds. But it's a type of— it's a sector where the human part is still fundamental. Absolutely.

21:48 I wonder here in Napa, when I go to Napa, we're there all the time. I do a lot of podcasting up there. And I always wonder what happens to the brands that are bought up by corporate investors. And then I wonder why, right? Particularly now, you know, the margins are bad. Marketing is tough. Uh, wineries just sold for $1 billion, uh, Paso Robles. And I don't know. Well, that's an answer. Do you ever see that back though? Do you ever— Yeah, that's an answer. Seeing these wineries being sold for such high prices. They talk about like inspiration, you know, motivates people to get started in something, but the discipline is what keeps you in it. You can't do it without the discipline.

22:29 So, like, this is hard. And you have a family connection that must be in the back of your mind all the time. This is our roots. Yes, but yes and no. Because at the end of the day, you do something that you personally believe in. Correct. Of course, you do also possibly, if you're smart enough, you do things that are good for you and good for others. That's the best-case scenario, right? But at the end of the day, you do things for yourself. So I think it's something that you just personally have. And I like when you said you have to be very diligent. And that's where my sister, Magdalena, comes in, in fact, because I'm— She's very focused and very organized.

23:23 And that's also thanks to the fact that she worked for General Electric for 10 years before joining the company. And she was CFO and CEO of over 700 people at the age of 29. Wow. So I think she's quite focused. And that part, I think, is also very important and critical. You must not— it's— yes, you not must forget that part too. Well, the, I guess that goes back to the family side of this thing. And my, let's take my father, for instance. He came to me and said, look, uh, I've had an offer from the South African Wine of the Month Club. This is 1980-something. And, uh, before I sell it to them, maybe you should come hang out. Now, what I did prior, prepared me serendipitously for this job. It was very entrepreneurial at the time, but I had worked for corporate America, one of the largest sales organizations in the world. And then I went to the smallest organization in the world and had to go out on a Friday afternoon and try and make payroll, you know? I see, I see. And then he calls, I've got this opportunity. I'm like, well, I'm prepared. You know, I've had my life threatened for not paying an invoice. I think I can handle this. But it takes— it took a little while for me to understand the value of this honest glass of wine, like what we were really doing to the dinner table, humanity, to people's souls, really. Yeah.

24:51 Wine is culture. Yeah. And we must never forget that because in that word, there's so many layers to it. How are we getting away from that right now? Why is that happening? Why are we— why is the industry suffering a little bit from not only volume, though they're still drinking a lot, but there seems to be a— we're talking about cans and bag-in-the-box and no-alc, low-alc, natural, whatever. Should I get you started? Wizard of Oz? No, not me. But not I, said the fly. But I think there Many factors, uh, but I would focus not on what, uh, is going to change, but in what is not going to change. Good point.

25:42 And I strongly believe that the love for wine is not going to change because it's, uh, uh, something that is good for your body. It's good for your mind. It's good for your heart. It's good for communication. It's good for your life. It gives you reason to remember things. Yeah. It gives you reasons of thinking of beautiful Toscana, beautiful Siena, your trip with your loved one, the tower of Siena's cathedral, the frescoes of Beccafumi, of Michelangelo.

26:28 This is life. I think you're right on. It's a great— I love you turning that around. No one has ever said it that way, where it's, let's think about the things that aren't going to change, which kind of jives with one of my romantic theories of wine, is that every generation eventually figures that out. Oh, yes. Maybe a little late. One thing I want to underline is this. Everybody is saying, oh, the young generation never really enjoyed properly wine. You're just not mature enough. Yeah, that's a good point. Florence Cathiard from Smith Haut Lafitte, and she also owns a winery in Napa, said, welcome to civilization. Is that though? Right? Isn't that what it is? It is. And how will that change? Is that possible to change? Uh, can't for 6,000 years, or at least that we know of. That we know of. It's lasted that long. So the daily, the daily thought process at the winery, what's your object? You wake up, you said you wake up, you see this sunset in Siena, and it's like this incredible inspiration to get started.

27:40 But we know— I always think of different Okay. Always have in mind— well, this is an obvious phrase. Forgive me if I say this, but sometimes in the very simple things is— truth lies in the very simple things. Absolutely. So always connect yourself to— I don't want to use the word tradition because it's way too used— to the culture you come from and try to see where you want to go. and how these can work and be sustainable, meaning that the winery can still be even economically sustainable. So that's one thing. And one thing I think I've learned recently, which did change our winery, and it's thanks to Maddalena.

28:37 Have faith in the people that work with you. Trust. In Tuscany, we tend— Looking over people's shoulders. A little bit. Instead, trust. Listen. Listen to people. Listen to the nature, because also nature— now you're going to think, oh, she's crazy. No, no. If you look at nature, she talks to you. The plants do talk to you if they're suffering, if they're not suffering, if you did something bad, if you did something good. Because then, of course, in winemaking, there's so many aspects from the vineyard to the people that come, to the label, to the image, to the story, to— and that's another incredibly fascinating aspect. But so I think I answered in the first part, trying to connect our culture to the future.

29:32 and seeing how this can really happen in practical ways that make your winery go into the future. I would think that that's 1975 and we were selling Lancers and Matusse and white Zinfandel had just started. And so that the wines that were required to make consumers come to the table have always been around. But Wouldn't you think that since wine is hundreds of years old, that if it was gonna go away in the sense of what you're talking about and what you make, it would've done that already? There's already been enough social forces over the many, many generations that that could've collapsed the whole thing. And the reason it doesn't is there's something about what you're producing that lights up a soul, not just— Yes. 14% alcohol, whatever it is.

30:24 And so, Um, I would— I wonder how far back you can go in your family history to witness that phenomenon. Like, they were probably making wine in, you know, 1360 or whatever it was, because they were making wine to survive. No, no, because it was part— it was like producing wheat and barley. Exactly. Well, I can tell you this. Wine was so important that my grandmother paid the people that worked with us With also with 2 bottles of wine every day. Was that payment or as a gratuitous thing? Both.

31:07 Wow. Both. They felt— I mean, it was a ritual. Every evening they would go and pick up their 2 bottles as part of the agreement. Let's put it this way. That's phenomenal. But this is how important it was. I wouldn't doubt that if you got— I mean, part of your wage in a way. No? Look, if the government allowed it, you could probably get away with that today. People would probably appreciate that if you got 2 bottles a night. It's, uh, I reflect on this. We went to Monaco for the Grand Prix a couple times, and I took a picture of this because I couldn't believe it. They were— the race was over and they were breaking down the barriers, and these are giant bolts with these huge pneumatic tools to take them off.

31:52 And the guy brought his dinner, and it was a thing of shoestring tomatoes and a little thing of pâté and a 3-liter bag of wine. Can you imagine that in America? I mean, that would just— wine on the job, let alone, you know— Well, even the people in the fields would have wine for lunch. Yeah. It was normal. It's culture. It's just culture. Absolutely normal. So what's, what's happened contemporarily with, with your brand? Like, you know, let's be realistic. We have to— we, in order for this to work, we have to sell some wines and we have to get out and explain what we just talked about, about the, the cultural value of a proper wine. In this last cycle, let's say the last 5 to 10 years, have you seen changes in the way you view the marketplace and how you want to address it?

32:42 Are we You know, in my opinion, this head down, stay the course in general, particularly what we're doing. But what's happening at the winery for this? I think we have a great teacher, which is Chianti Classico. So Chianti Classico, the first Consorzio of Italy. A small group of people understood the importance of getting together and, let's say, getting over all their rivalries, but trying to protect together what they had, which was very valuable, like the territory of Chianti Classico. Mm-hmm.

33:32 That was back in 1924. Actually, Chianti Classico was the first ever defined territory of the world back in 1716, but that was the Grand Duke that decided, so it's not very merit of the people that really worked that land. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, in the '90s, uh, Chianti Classico starts studying clones to improve the quality. The project, uh, Classico 2000 comes forth. The clones mature earlier. The clone— the grapes have— the clusters are sparser, better quality.

34:14 Fast forward. Gran Selezione, zonation of the area. What am I trying to say? If you continue, if you persist, If you stick to what you believe in, which at the end of the day is the same concept of 100 years ago, then you will succeed. If you give up or think there's shortcuts, there are no shortcuts. Mm-hmm. And generally speaking, and there's no shortcuts in agriculture, that's for sure. No. So, Uh, being— to answer your, your question, I see that why the example of Chianti Classico, I think it's very pertinent because it's one of the few appellations that hasn't— has not only has not decreased in the past years, but it has increased a little bit. Hmm.

35:20 It has increased the bottles sold. It has increased the percentage of presence in United States of America in 2025. What's the difference with the— with other appellation? We never stopped investing in promotion. We never stopped investing, um, in a certain promotion. Mm-hmm. Which is talking about the territory, talking about quality, not selling the— not selling, but giving for free the wine. Now I'm exaggerating, but I think this is the key. When you say improve the quality, what does that mean? I mean, what is that objective? And this is a rhetorical question. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It means something different to everybody. I have my opinion of what it means, but we're striving for better quality.

36:19 Chianti Classico and all our territory, I have pictures of how the vineyards were before. Mm. So you had a piece of an acre with wheat, then you had trees, Then you had between trees, you had some vines. Then surrounding the plot of land, you had vines. Again, what was the concept? The concept was food. And that— Interesting. Now, that wine back in the days didn't have the opportunity really of aging for XYZ reasons. Yes. The clones, the technology, the sulfites, et cetera, et cetera.

37:18 Of course, the world has changed, and it has changed for Tuscany in a good way because at least wine somehow helped when agriculture was dying. Wine came and helped. our landscape. But that quality increase was dramatic, but because the way the wine was consumed was dramatically different as we have it today. You see what I mean? Mm-hmm. Now, increased quality Today, it's a completely different story because there we're talking about from 1 to 100, we did 70 or 80 or 90. And now we're talking about— Yes. Zero points. Yes, right. Because we are at very, very high levels of quality in wine production.

38:18 Of course, it's in humankind. There's always space to evolve. There's always room to do better. But I wonder if quality— I don't want to interrupt you, but I wonder if quality— I mean, I always looked at it as expressing in the bottle— The land. The land in the best version that you can do. And certainly you're— No, no, we strongly believe in this. If you think of the fact that we don't use barrique, we don't use— I mean, for the Sangiovese in our Gran Selezione, We really, we handpick. It's a selection of the selection. No new oak.

39:02 2 years in big casks of 50 hectoliters, then 2 more years in the bottle. It's a big investment. It's an expensive investment to grow the oak. It is. I don't think people realize it. No, but that's quality. But that's quality. Quality. Let's go back a little bit to the, to this. You said 1926 is when you, when Chianti's rules changed. '24. The rules changed. Consortium founded. I love reading old books. My dad has tons of 'em. And I was reading a book on Burgundy. They were talking about, I think, 1932 when there was a consortium and a Burgundian winemaker said, we should include in our appellation rules no advertising because we're gonna make such good wine that we're not gonna need to advertise. So I wonder what happened in 1924, what the conversations amongst the vintners were to say, we're gonna increase the level of quality, whatever that means, in Chianti Classico.

40:02 Right. 'Cause wasn't at that time, weren't you allowed to put like 25 grapes in there and all kinds of different things? You could put white grapes. Uh, here we're talking about the evolution of marketing, which is a bit— That's a bigger picture. It's a bigger picture. But they, they saw something. They did see something. Because they had wine that was called Chianti, which was not produced in the Chianti region. Oh, well, that's a problem in the fiasco. And that's how Chianti Classico was born. I get it. Because Chianti Classico is produced in a region which is called Chianti. So you have, uh, Radda in Chianti, Castellina in Chianti, Bagliaia in Chianti, all the villages that are part of that territory. But since it was a recipe of how the Chianti was made, people— and it was successful because, of course, incredible land, because wine comes from the land.

41:04 And that will be— That's it. That's it. Punto. It was successful. It was good. People from outside that region started saying, oh, but we want to have— we want to make that recipe too, and we're going to call it Chianti, even though it's not produced in the Chianti region. Mm-hmm. And that's when they said, no, no, no, we need to protect our brand. We need to protect our territory. Again, it's nothing one against the other. Chianti wine, it's fantastic, but it just comes from a different territory, and we must give this information. And so when you travel the world doing this like you're doing today, because one of my favorite— Today I had no idea about this interview. I just arrived.

41:50 I mean, I forgot about it, to be honest with you. When I got the text, I said, oh crap, better make sure everything's ready. So, but I'm so happy we're here because it's really, really interesting. So I appreciate that. It is. I'm very happy to be here. One of my favorite descriptions when people are at a dinner table and they're asking what an appellation even is, I use Chianti. I don't use Burgundy. I don't use Bordeaux. I don't use Napa. I say, this is Chianti and this is Chianti Classico. And they go, oh, I get it now. This big circle. But we still have to teach that. It's so interesting to me generationally. But think if there was nothing else to teach. It would be dramatic. Good. There's a lot of room for everybody. 'Cause there's work. There's so much work to do. It's so interesting to, to, it's such a fascinating, I, I was trying to think of other industries.

42:42 I, I brought this up yesterday in the podcast, but we were at Wine Paris and, you know, there's the Italian room and there's the French room and the Bordeaux, and it's just 6,000 vendors selling, you know, who knows how many SKUs are up there, probably 100,000 SKUs in that show. Do you think of any other industry where we're all selling the same thing? You're all trying— you're all doing the same thing. But that's the thing, we're not selling the same thing. You're selling a different appellation, and that is the difference. We're not selling forks. That's the difference. Or knives. With all respect. That's the difference. We're not. You can go from one booth to the other and have a completely different experience. Experience. Yeah. So how do you— how do you do that? That when you're out selling the brand, is the experience for the consumer meeting you coming to a dinner, talking to the vendors? When I come to the winery, what's my experience like?

43:36 When you come to the winery, I think you really breathe how Tuscany, how Siena, how Fattoria Moschini, how Bindi Sergardi was even 100 or 200 years ago because we kept everything as it was. We did not Change. We were so respectful when we renovated the estate. We left the same floor, the same ceilings, the same walls, maybe a little bit curvy. But we're not going to make it a hotel or a lobby of a hotel to be thinking of pleasing somebody. We are really pleasing our customers if we make them live the real experience. In fact, if you go on— I don't want to say, but everybody's very happy when they come and visit us because they say it's the true experience. You know, I wonder if that's part of humanity. Like, my favorite movie is A Midnight in Paris because it takes you back to a different time and you feel like, wow, that was a really great time. You know, it's a movie, but Maybe showing up at the winery and seeing this history that you reflect on an earlier time of, maybe it was a simpler time, maybe it represents a time in the bottle, but we leave our senses momentarily while we're at the winery experiencing this conversation, this conversation about history. We have

45:08 many of our guests cry. Wow. That'll tell you something. That's phenomenal. But I don't want to make it too much. No, no, you don't. It's just good. It's real. It's real. Everything is appearance. Being the Ser Gardi is real. And that has to— people go on vacation, they leave their senses, they decide to do something else, they want to experience something. You walk into your villa or your castello and and all of a sudden they've moved completely different emotional moment in time, and they hear your story. And meeting you, like, how much energy you have and how much passion you have for it, it's, it's what it takes. And this is what bothers me about the contemporary wine world. I've had people sit here that, that, you know, putting wines in cans and putting it back in the box, and they think that, you know, that we should have a, a funny label and we should— and it's like, I don't Maybe that's the marketing of this stuff. But there's room for everybody. I suppose.

46:11 And the winner takes it all. Who knows who the winner will be, but it's— Well, I think it continues. It's like this. It's the way it is. There's the Armenian— I do a lot of work with the Armenian wineries that are coming here. It's very difficult. They all ask me to get them presence in the distributor. And it's like, yeah, well, all the connections I've established over the world over the years, you know, really can't help at this point in time. But the point I'm making is they're in such an infancy in their, in their industry, and they make good wines. There are some quality brands from there, but they can't get along. And I, I'm not upsetting anybody, whoever's watching this, everybody knows this. Like, they'll say that, that, you know, they, they're just not team players. But that's, that was true even in Tuscany. It's a matter of who— no, that was That was true, and it still is a bit, even in our territory, but less and less so. You know that, for example, the zonation of Chianti Classico, so all the producers from the different areas started meeting, started tasting together, started— you have no idea of how beneficial it was for everybody. Because we tend as Tuscans to, okay, this is my gate, you stay out.

47:39 Yeah. Right. This is not true for Bindi Sergari because we open the gates to horses, to people that wanna go, uh, with their dogs. We open the gates of the, of even of the vineyards. Um, we like the community. So, um, that's our principle. But anyway, uh, I'm sure they will get there eventually. I know. It's, it's just a process. It's a process. It's a process. We all go through that. It's just being scared. You know, when you don't make it, you're always looking, I'm not making it, so he better not make it. But then when you start as a team moving all forward, and this is the great thing about Chianti Classico, because all the things I told you are part of The whole Appalachian doing that. All high tide floats all, raises all boats, whatever that colloquialism, something like that. Yes, I got the concept. Yes. And in the Armenian side of things, everybody curls a lip at the other guy, the other person, and it's just phenomenal to me. Because even here, my cousin owns a very famous Italian restaurant in Pasadena, and he was fighting the city hall, not it— basically to say we don't want any more restaurants in our neighborhood. And it was the wrong thing to do because the more restaurants, the more people are going to come and the more it becomes a vivacious area. I would assume that— And your restaurant will value— will have more value. Go up in value. So, so what, what is— you've always been sustainable, I suspect, but

49:13 is there a growing philosophy at, at the winery about how you treat vines, how you treat the land, um, you know, making sure that you present in the bottle what's best representative of that vintage? Yes, but that's really, I think, this— the normal, if I may say, uh, moving forward of a business. I mean, how can you not look at that aspect? Well, it's contemporary, but there's context. There's some things, and I don't want to say it publicly, that I find ridiculous and I don't find sustainable a bit. And I think they're just marketing. Some things I find very important for everybody, for the whole world.

50:02 With my sister, we really— was our father who did the investment. We have, for example, 2 hectares of solar panels. So whatever— 2 hectares? No, it's a fact. I would never do it again, I'm telling you, but it's done. So at least marketing-wise, we can say it. So basically what we consume, we produce in green energy. And that, I think— I think that's great. Is great. I think of all the industries in the world, literally, that wine would be the most important to be sustainable, the most important to make sure, because not only is that good for marketing, as we talked about, but it's good for the product. Yes, it is. I mean, that makes sense. And biodiversity for us is fundamental. I mean, we have vineyards, wheat, barley, olive trees, which let's not forget is the best product of the world, olive oil.

50:58 Yes. Did you bring any olive oil today? No, I'm kidding. And, uh, and, uh, with my sister, we, we decide— with Madalena, we decided to keep at least a third of our property in woods, which are, uh, really— wow— a house for wild animals. They keep temperatures down. Uh, they make a huge difference. Changes the use of the air. Huge difference. That's really interesting. I think it's critical, and I think biodiversity My father used to have 500 avocado trees and he brought in citrus trees for the bees and the production went up, the quality, everything went up because he did the biodiversity part of things. So, we're already out of time, which is unbelievable. And we didn't talk about wine. No, hardly. Well, we did a little bit. Yes. I mean, I'd say this example, I said it yesterday, but I've been to, obviously we've been through lots of things in the wine trade, but we were in Palermo and we were at a restaurant and the somm was Serbian or Croatian or something. And it was the most amazing service that I'd ever had. And I actually ordered a Super Tuscan, an Antonori Super Tuscan. And it didn't matter what I would've ordered. He would've made me feel like I was the king of the world having ordered the wine I ordered. That's wonderful. Yeah.

52:28 That is wonderful. It's music to my ears. Weeks later, I was in Beverly Hills. I went to the very famous steakhouse. And that somm was the guy that you just— we just don't need because he was telling you about how much he knew and what wines he's drunk and the people he knew. And that's why we didn't talk about the wine. Because I don't know that anybody cares about the pH or the sugar content. They want to know what you just talked about, which was a fascinating story. Congrats. It's so great to see you again because I think we need to talk. Yes, we have to understand where and when. And I hope we can do it again, but this time in Siena. Please come. Because we're going to be out there one of these days soon. Please come. Uh, we would be so happy to, uh, continue to talk. Thank you.

53:17 Our last trip was to Piemonte. And, and, and introduce you to To our land. Great. Thank you for coming. And our city. Cheers. Grazie. Grazie.