From Bordeaux to Napa: Is Tradition Holding Wine Back? Ask Justine Tesseron of Cht. Pontet-Canet

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What I think Ponte Cana is like is

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every vintage tells a story. Every

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vintage has its own

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identity. So even on, you know,

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on challenging years, I think Ponte

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Cana people are happy to open a good

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bottle of wine. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California. We're gonna have a conversation with

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Justine Tasseron. Yes. Of

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Château Pontet. You know, why, why am I stumbling

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over this? It's so ridiculous. Pontet-Canet. I'm gonna read what

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ChatGPT wrote quickly just to get started here. It says,

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classified as a 5th growth in 1855, Château Pontet-Canet Cannet

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entered the Tesseron family in 1975. Since then, this

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Pauillac estate has challenged Bordeaux tradition, embracing biodynamic

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farming while honoring its historic vineyards. My guest,

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Justine Tesseron, brings the next generation's

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perspective to that balancing act. We'll explore family

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legacy, the courage to change, and the tension between the romance of

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château life and the business of wine. Justine,

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welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Paul. Hi. Glad to have you

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here. Very happy to be here. At the end of this trip, though, this has

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been a long trip. You've been out on the road. Yeah, I've been here for

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about a week. Yes. And that's my last day

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today. So I'm happy to end this trip with you. Yes. Well, thank

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you. It's kind of the, you know, a week seems like we're going to go

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to Armenia. I told you that to do some filming

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and then we're going to stop in Paris. And I'm like, how long am I

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going to be in Paris? Well, 4 days is not enough. You know, 7 days

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is probably too long after 7 days in Armenia. So, I think we'll be

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there 4 or 5 days, which I could live there. I mean, I could

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live in Paris. Yes. Yeah, it's a nice, uh, that's a nice city. My

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wife, you know, she's given me now a 90-day

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window to try. I'm like bucking for a

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year. But anyway, I get 90-day windows. You know, there's

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something interesting about your history, and I read a lot about Château Pontet-Canet.

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And this idea of biodynamic farming is

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embracing— there's what's-his-name's book right there.

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You can see that I've not opened it, but— That's nice.

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I've been wanting to learn about it. Why did

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this family, your family, get involved with biodynamic

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farming? The idea

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arrived when My father,

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you know, was tasting some of the biodynamic wines,

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and he always thought something were different in those

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wines. Yeah. Like feeling a good energy,

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more— the wines were more expressive.

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And he thought, like, my grandfather had the

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best idea about acquiring this place

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because the terroir is very beautiful.

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on a terrace. Mm-hmm.

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And it's well planted. We didn't change that much

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the grapes by at all. We let the vines like this.

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And in the classification of 1855, we've been

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classified a 5th growth. And I think

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in the mind of my father, It always stayed somewhere,

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and he thought we could do better. So,

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he— I was not yet involved at that time, but

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in 2004, he decided to go in

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this direction, to improve the quality of the wines.

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Mm-hmm. And we started— at the beginning, we

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started on the Merlot, so which we present about

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30% of the blend.

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And then from year 1, we were

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tasting, as we do every year during harvest, we were tasting

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the vats to see the evolution, and the Merlot were tasting different.

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Different in a good way. Yeah, and that's interesting because in

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America, when they started, and you obviously, you have a Napa Valley winery,

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so you're familiar with this, but standing on the other side of this wall

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tasting wines every Tuesday and watching the

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biodynamic movement occur in America.

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Those wines were not good. They were not palatable wines.

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Yes, yes, yes. They tasted like hay and they tasted like dirt.

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And I didn't understand this because wouldn't you think that

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you're the previous owners of the château, let's say the

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1865 area, Wouldn't that have been at

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least organic? Yes. If not biodynamic. At

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that time, nobody were using chemicals.

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It didn't exist. So it's a— I think it's an old,

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you know, it's old methods. It's an old method. And why did we

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lose that method? What? And here we are making beautiful wine. I would say

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it's back to the roots, back to, you know, what nature

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gives us. And it's true that, you

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know, when the very few people who were producing

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organic or biodynamic wines, sometimes

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it was too— the wines were weird.

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Very strange. And even the approach sometimes could be

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difficult to understand, very technical.

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And we do it.

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It's part today, it's really part of our

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philosophy. But at the same time, we did

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change many things. And I think we have

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to stay, you know, where we are

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and to make people understand that what we are doing

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is real and not crazy. Well,

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it's not that. You know, I don't want to interrupt you, but

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not only that, because it seemed back 10, 15

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years ago that the biodynamic movement was more founded on a

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marketing idea, like, we're gonna, uh, we're gonna be biodynamic

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and we're gonna appeal to the new generation, when the reality is your

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grandfather sensed a life in these wines when he

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tasted them. Yes, my father. Your father. So this is

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a movement in a Probably took, you said 2004, you started with the

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Merlot. Now we're in 2026.

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It takes probably a little bit of time to understand what

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biodynamic farming is going to do to that grape to maintain the brand

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value of Château Pontet-Canet. Yeah, sure. And

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it takes time. And still today, after

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20, a bit more than 20 years, we are still learning a lot.

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And we, with climate change, you know, with

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all this evolution, we, I think we, we always learn. Yeah.

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And, and we, we have to adapt things. So I

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mentioned we, we did change many things at the same time.

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We, we are working, uh, half of the vineyard with

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horses. Um, we change, um,

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we change the, the the aging process as

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well. So at least

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biodynamic is at the heart of our

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philosophy, but Ponte Cana is

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more like a global vision. Yeah.

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And it's at least the result we have in the glass

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is a combination of different things

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and not only Biodynamic. Biodynamic, I think,

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was helpful to get better fruit. And

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if we have better fruits, then it's easier to

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make a better wine, I guess. How about that? I'm not

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sure everybody understands the idea that good fruit makes good wine. But do you

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think it— is it more challenging now that— well, you're a little settled

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in on this, but of course, we're always learning, like you said. Is it more

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challenging and is it more risky to be by the Napa,

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particularly in Bordeaux, and being the first classified growth to do this?

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I think so. It's

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challenging, but it's challenging for everybody.

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We, you know, the Médoc area is between the river on one side and the

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ocean on the other side. So the weather could be very

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humid. And in some years, it can rain

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more than others. So we, by

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working with our methods, we have to anticipate

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more. And as all the

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spray we use are contact

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treatments, every time it's raining, it's gone. So we have to do—

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to protect the vines again. Wow. So it's a

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lot of anticipation because we have to

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help the vines to feel strong enough and resist better better

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against disease. And, uh,

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and on the other hand, some years are very hot and

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dry. We don't get any rain at all, like '26, for example. Mm-hmm.

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So we really have to adapt from one year to

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another. And, um, and yes, and

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the, the, the— it's challenging, of course, but

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for that, we, we did adapt as

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well the way of working.

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We created a room dedicated to

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biodynamic, for example, which allows us to be much more

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efficient and reactive. And I really think

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the key is being reactive. And so how

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does it— how did— the

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one thing about marketing wine, which is

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difficult at best is you have to

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look maybe a minimum 5 years down the road to

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hopefully understand what the marketplace is gonna do. 'Cause we need to sell, we need

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to sell some wine. Sure. Of course. And I think this, I think the biodynamic

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movement is very important. I think of all the industries in all the world,

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you know, wine would be the most suitable and most

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conducive to organic and biodynamic farming and

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sustainable. farming, right? That's an important part of it. But what's

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that? And that's the romantic side of this. How did the market, how did the

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market respond to Ponnay-Canté,

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um,

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to this movement? Did they— was it— did you say, hey, we're doing this now?

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No. Or you just did it because you wanted to— you wanted the wines to

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be as expressive as possible? Exactly. That's a Option 2. Yeah,

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right. We, uh, no, we, we, um, when we

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converted the vineyard, it was not for marketing

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points. And, and we didn't even talk

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about it at the beginning, really, because we, we wanted,

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you know, we, when you, when you, when you try something,

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you never know how it will happen in the future. So

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we, we did our experimentation, we

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applied for the certification, um,

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And at the beginning, it was even not written

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on the label. Oh, really? And still

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today, we only have the organic

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logo, but it's not written it's biodynamic. We have

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the certification since the vintage 2010,

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but we don't put it on the label because we don't want to

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do it as marketing.

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Then we, as it's part of our philosophy, we

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talk about it, obviously, but we don't sell it like

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this. And

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people know about it. People

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read about us and they know about

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our philosophy, but we don't

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communicate as we do it for— Not as much. I'm glad

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to hear that. We do it for the quality of the wine.

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Now, this question is a tough question because I don't know if there

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is an answer. It's like, what is the end goal? Is the end goal,

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when we use all these different methods, in your case, biodynamic farming, organic farming,

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I mean, it's fascinating to hear that there's horses drawing the

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plows, et cetera, that harvest. Is it during harvest you use the horses? They

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do. They do. They do. And there was a special kind of horse,

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right? Yes. It's a special breed of

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horse. Yeah, we use a Percheron. Yeah, Percheron.

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And Trécontois. It's a French breed. Is it a working horse,

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I guess? Yes, yes, yes. They are very

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strong horses and

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not that tall, but strong

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and calm. So I wouldn't— We need to have calm horses. I wouldn't place

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a bet at Longchamp on one of those horses. No, I

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guess not. No, no, we don't do this kind of horses.

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Because I've had people sit where you're sitting and say,

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well, one day, classified growth Bordeaux will be in a can or

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it'll be in a box. And I refuse to accept this

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kind of non-romantic part of the business, but it's business. We need

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to sell stuff. And there's this idea that there's a crisis in

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Bordeaux. even when I did research, the word crisis was

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used. But I think about this and I say,

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yeah, consumption's down, but it's like, what, 4, 5%

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or something? Is this traumatic or is there a little bit of a

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pinch going on in the general Bordeaux region? Are we just

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going through a regular ebb and flow and just— Yes.

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I think we are. Crisis, yes. Everybody's talking

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about crisis, but we— I didn't like the word crisis. Me neither.

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But no, We

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have to be dynamic, and

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we have to be on the market to explain

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what we are doing, to open bottles, and to share. Wine is

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to share. That's right. So I think, yes, consumption has

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been down for a little, but people are still drinking

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wine, and what they like is to drink good wine. So

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we— How about that? We try to do our best.

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We try to do our best, and yes, and people—

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We are lucky people like our wines. And,

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you know, what I think Pontet-Canet is

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00:15:18,084 --> 00:15:21,897
like is every vintage tells

238
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a story. Every vintage has its

239
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,749
own identity. Mm-hmm. So even on,

240
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you know, on challenging years, I think

241
00:15:34,188 --> 00:15:38,009
Pontet-Canet people are happy to open a good

242
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bottle of wine. And this is part

243
00:15:41,912 --> 00:15:45,685
of the dream of Bordeaux. This is my

244
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thought, and particularly in wines of the caliber of

245
00:15:49,971 --> 00:15:50,873
Poney Cantet,

246
00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:58,318
that there really is no such thing as a bad vintage,

247
00:15:58,382 --> 00:16:02,155
because if the wine is expressive of the vintage and is doing

248
00:16:02,252 --> 00:16:06,034
its job, You pick the grapes, you manage the grapes,

249
00:16:06,066 --> 00:16:09,176
you manage the weather, you manage the terroir, and then you made a wine from

250
00:16:09,208 --> 00:16:12,878
that. That is not a bad vintage, just different vintage. Different, of

251
00:16:12,911 --> 00:16:16,565
course. But it's expressive of that vintage. And sometimes these

252
00:16:16,678 --> 00:16:20,188
quote unquote bad vintages come around to some pretty interesting wines, right?

253
00:16:20,284 --> 00:16:23,875
Later on in their lives. But it's same.

254
00:16:24,372 --> 00:16:28,107
There are some amazing vintage where the wines

255
00:16:28,283 --> 00:16:32,115
could last, could be aged for decades. And we also need

256
00:16:32,131 --> 00:16:35,769
wines which are easier to drink, You know, that you,

257
00:16:36,218 --> 00:16:40,063
you can open with, I don't know, with a, with a

258
00:16:40,079 --> 00:16:43,764
burger or, you know, with, with a pizza.

259
00:16:43,924 --> 00:16:47,305
Changing cuisines. I told this story last night at a dinner

260
00:16:47,850 --> 00:16:51,631
that when I arrived in Paris the first time in 1979, there was

261
00:16:51,631 --> 00:16:55,284
this long line out of McDonald's on the Champs-Élysées. Yeah.

262
00:16:55,444 --> 00:16:59,033
And I couldn't understand that because right next door was a boulangerie

263
00:16:59,209 --> 00:17:02,638
with beautiful ham sandwiches, you know? And I thought, how, how could you eat this

264
00:17:02,975 --> 00:17:06,780
American burger, but now we have wines to go with it, right? But

265
00:17:06,924 --> 00:17:10,410
I think that's just part of, you know, the evolution of

266
00:17:10,442 --> 00:17:14,248
humanity and what they're eating and the way lifestyle is. And, you know, you compare

267
00:17:14,538 --> 00:17:17,782
the way we live today to even 20 years ago or 50 years ago, you

268
00:17:17,782 --> 00:17:21,251
know, wine should keep up with that. I don't think packaging

269
00:17:21,846 --> 00:17:25,492
is the crux of this. I think expression of the terroir

270
00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:29,314
and what people are drinking is more important. I agree. I agree.

271
00:17:29,395 --> 00:17:32,804
And, you know, we, once again, we need a We need

272
00:17:33,418 --> 00:17:37,038
wine for every occasion. So, you know, we— Do you think then

273
00:17:37,232 --> 00:17:41,063
with, you know, I was putting some thought into this about social networking

274
00:17:41,176 --> 00:17:44,475
and digital marketing, which is when I ran the Wine of the Month Club, we

275
00:17:44,555 --> 00:17:48,331
were prolific digital marketers. I mean, that's what we did.

276
00:17:48,508 --> 00:17:51,657
We sold wine, which was a great product, but, you know, our job was to

277
00:17:51,721 --> 00:17:54,365
get to people and get the stories in their hands.

278
00:17:55,890 --> 00:17:59,470
Are the stories still relevant? Are the stories of Bordeaux still relevant? Here you have

279
00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:04,735
3 families in what, a century or 3 centuries? 3 centuries. Yeah.

280
00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:08,472
That's an incredible story. And for me,

281
00:18:08,923 --> 00:18:12,477
that is the terroir. Are these pertinent stories? Are they

282
00:18:12,493 --> 00:18:14,953
important stories now? I think so. I think

283
00:18:16,255 --> 00:18:19,697
Bordeaux is historical. So Bordeaux

284
00:18:19,714 --> 00:18:23,295
has different

285
00:18:23,295 --> 00:18:26,339
stories, different families

286
00:18:27,178 --> 00:18:29,569
between owners, between negotiants. So

287
00:18:29,569 --> 00:18:32,501
it's It's—

288
00:18:33,673 --> 00:18:36,948
I think Bordeaux is quite dreamy, and

289
00:18:37,446 --> 00:18:40,690
Bordeaux has always— has never produced

290
00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:44,977
wines with that quality. Mm-hmm. Bordeaux, you can—

291
00:18:45,892 --> 00:18:49,023
with Bordeaux, you can go back in the old

292
00:18:49,023 --> 00:18:52,539
vintages, and you can really enjoy those bottles still

293
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:56,265
today. So, you know, we— and at the same

294
00:18:56,329 --> 00:18:59,137
time, Bordeaux has evolved.

295
00:19:00,170 --> 00:19:03,966
And today you can drink Bordeaux even in the

296
00:19:03,966 --> 00:19:07,813
young age. We, for

297
00:19:07,813 --> 00:19:11,235
now, I have a lot of pleasure to open

298
00:19:11,235 --> 00:19:15,043
bottles like '17, for example, which are young, but, you

299
00:19:15,043 --> 00:19:18,457
know, they are just wines that you open and you have,

300
00:19:19,053 --> 00:19:21,534
you really enjoy these kind of bottles. For sure.

301
00:19:24,434 --> 00:19:28,235
I think that part of the business is critical to get to understand. And

302
00:19:28,252 --> 00:19:32,069
I, right now, the way I feel with your wines and other Bordeaux wines I've

303
00:19:32,069 --> 00:19:35,803
tasted, you know, the deuxième étiquette kind of thing, which is not

304
00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:39,521
really anymore the second label. It's more of another brand. Another label.

305
00:19:39,715 --> 00:19:43,332
Right. I think the value coming outta Bordeaux is

306
00:19:43,381 --> 00:19:46,913
incredible for the price of those kinds of wines and the

307
00:19:46,978 --> 00:19:50,349
chance to taste the history and be part of that history.

308
00:19:50,972 --> 00:19:54,572
for a nominal amount of money. I mean, you're in Napa Valley.

309
00:19:55,653 --> 00:19:59,365
It's not that easy to do that there, right? Yeah, it's

310
00:19:59,365 --> 00:20:02,884
different. It's different. Why did that happen? What brought—

311
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,128
and I don't— I can't even pronounce it. Pimerol. Pimerol.

312
00:20:07,192 --> 00:20:10,602
Yes, Pimerol. As you can tell with my linguistics

313
00:20:11,588 --> 00:20:15,431
that— You're doing great. But what was the

314
00:20:15,431 --> 00:20:19,118
attraction to come to Napa Valley? The idea came

315
00:20:19,313 --> 00:20:21,002
a few years ago. We wanted to

316
00:20:24,478 --> 00:20:28,059
to have a new challenge, to have a new baby in the family.

317
00:20:28,958 --> 00:20:31,447
And we looked at another

318
00:20:32,186 --> 00:20:35,847
vineyard, and we found this place in

319
00:20:35,879 --> 00:20:39,589
Napa, which is up in the hills. So we really wanted to have

320
00:20:40,761 --> 00:20:44,438
a vineyard on the hills to be able to

321
00:20:44,470 --> 00:20:48,164
get some freshness in the wine. Yeah.

322
00:20:48,308 --> 00:20:50,251
And we found this vineyard in Monte Vida,

323
00:20:50,956 --> 00:20:53,021
which is

324
00:20:53,457 --> 00:20:56,684
west side of the Napa.

325
00:20:58,443 --> 00:21:02,165
And it used to be owned by Robin Williams, the

326
00:21:02,165 --> 00:21:05,595
comedian. You're kidding? Yes. And the name is coming from his—

327
00:21:05,933 --> 00:21:09,749
from the middle name of his children. I didn't read that in any of

328
00:21:09,749 --> 00:21:13,575
the dossiers here. That's so interesting. So we bought that place

329
00:21:13,834 --> 00:21:17,586
about 10 years ago, in 2016. So let's, let's

330
00:21:17,635 --> 00:21:21,374
talk about these 2 cultures. I mean, Napa is entirely different than,

331
00:21:21,872 --> 00:21:25,435
than Bordeaux. And I had Florence Cathiard on the show. I did a

332
00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:29,415
podcast up there at Cathiard. And there's

333
00:21:29,496 --> 00:21:33,139
many, many French châteaux up there.

334
00:21:34,166 --> 00:21:37,938
Monsieur Jean-Noël Fourmeaux, mon ami. Okay.

335
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,191
I mean, I bought wine from him in 1980-something, you know, interesting story.

336
00:21:42,914 --> 00:21:46,687
But lifestyle is completely different. And the

337
00:21:46,768 --> 00:21:50,220
concept of wine in America is completely different. How have you

338
00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:54,010
adapted to that? Have you just absorbed it, worked with it? Are you taking

339
00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:56,739
that French tradition to the Napa Valley?

340
00:21:57,109 --> 00:22:00,304
It's very interesting to have both

341
00:22:00,497 --> 00:22:04,335
visions. And at the same time, there

342
00:22:04,335 --> 00:22:08,012
are lots of similarities between both. And

343
00:22:08,108 --> 00:22:11,519
that's why we wanted to be in Napa instead of,

344
00:22:12,213 --> 00:22:15,826
I don't know, any other wine region. Yeah. Because Napa has the same

345
00:22:15,939 --> 00:22:19,343
grapes, Payetol, as we do have in Bordeaux. So for us,

346
00:22:19,424 --> 00:22:23,156
it was easier to go in places like this that we know

347
00:22:23,332 --> 00:22:26,902
how to, you know, how to do.

348
00:22:28,656 --> 00:22:32,492
And yes, we— there are

349
00:22:32,492 --> 00:22:35,659
things that— the challenges are different.

350
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:39,517
Obviously, the climate is not the same. The terroir is not the same.

351
00:22:42,422 --> 00:22:45,687
So we had to learn that.

352
00:22:49,078 --> 00:22:52,727
And we— the

353
00:22:52,775 --> 00:22:56,007
culture is different. Totally different.

354
00:22:56,795 --> 00:22:59,930
But we learned

355
00:23:00,512 --> 00:23:04,295
and we adapt ourselves. We decided to,

356
00:23:04,651 --> 00:23:08,283
regarding our vineyard, so we are, I told you, up in the hills in

357
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:11,277
Montvidere. So it's a small vineyard of 10 hectares.

358
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,681
18 acres that we

359
00:23:15,681 --> 00:23:19,012
decided to work with the same philosophy as Pontet-Canet,

360
00:23:19,885 --> 00:23:23,635
meaning that we converted to biodynamic as well.

361
00:23:25,274 --> 00:23:28,954
And it was irrigated before, but we stopped. Wow. When

362
00:23:29,050 --> 00:23:31,384
we arrived there, we stopped the irrigation. So it's

363
00:23:31,384 --> 00:23:34,252
100% dry farming. Wow.

364
00:23:35,589 --> 00:23:38,635
And it's funny because at least the vines were quite resilient.

365
00:23:40,034 --> 00:23:43,450
Because we are in Montvidéur, because of the soils, because

366
00:23:44,429 --> 00:23:48,150
of the age of the vines as well. Today,

367
00:23:48,214 --> 00:23:51,695
the vines are around 35 years old. So

368
00:23:51,823 --> 00:23:54,775
it's quite, the roots are quite

369
00:23:55,416 --> 00:23:59,202
implanted and— Well, and I think that's a lot. I mean, without

370
00:23:59,202 --> 00:24:01,431
getting too wine geeky stuff,

371
00:24:02,795 --> 00:24:06,548
converting to dry farming would take some time and it takes the vines an understanding

372
00:24:06,564 --> 00:24:10,201
that they gotta dig deeper to get their water and their nutrients. Sure. So,

373
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,191
but I think that's an important, a really important

374
00:24:14,191 --> 00:24:17,895
feature of what you're doing because Napa needs to get

375
00:24:17,895 --> 00:24:21,180
away and is getting away from this opulent, fruit-forward,

376
00:24:21,518 --> 00:24:24,595
over-extracted style that it, that, that has, you know,

377
00:24:25,143 --> 00:24:28,511
choked it a little bit. And now if you bring Bordeaux-making

378
00:24:28,608 --> 00:24:32,178
philosophy and, 'cause for me, finding

379
00:24:32,277 --> 00:24:36,104
terroir differences in Napa, it was, is particularly on the valley floor

380
00:24:36,154 --> 00:24:39,772
is tough. Yes. Right? Now, Véder and Howl Mountain and Stag's Leap,

381
00:24:40,014 --> 00:24:43,826
those will produce something more interesting. But

382
00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:47,749
I think that's great that you're doing that. Yes. We really

383
00:24:47,765 --> 00:24:51,516
wanted to, once again, to produce wine with some freshness where

384
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,226
you feel the fruit. And that's why also we

385
00:24:55,226 --> 00:24:58,453
changed a bit the way of making the wine there.

386
00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:02,988
And we do, regarding the aging

387
00:25:03,117 --> 00:25:06,360
process, we do age about half of the production in concrete.

388
00:25:07,637 --> 00:25:11,411
instead of 100% in oak to be

389
00:25:11,411 --> 00:25:14,815
able to have less this

390
00:25:15,264 --> 00:25:18,813
oaky taste. And

391
00:25:18,813 --> 00:25:22,602
it's so helpful to feel the fruit, to

392
00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:25,653
feel the freshness. Let me taste some wine here. Yes, you feel the terroir, you

393
00:25:25,653 --> 00:25:29,442
know? I don't need this stuff. You picked an interesting time

394
00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:33,310
though. You suffered through fires. I just thought of this. You suffered through fires. 2

395
00:25:33,326 --> 00:25:36,963
years in Napa, and they were up in that area, were they

396
00:25:36,963 --> 00:25:40,488
not? And then Bordeaux now suffering through some

397
00:25:40,536 --> 00:25:43,916
fires. These kinds of setbacks can be

398
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:47,681
catastrophic. Were you affected by them? No, no, no,

399
00:25:47,697 --> 00:25:50,725
not at all. The fires, we had the fires in Bordeaux

400
00:25:51,831 --> 00:25:55,580
end of July, but it was very far from

401
00:25:55,612 --> 00:25:59,457
the vineyard, and the wind were not going into our

402
00:25:59,457 --> 00:26:02,885
direction, so it was, we didn't get any smoke.

403
00:26:03,623 --> 00:26:07,312
around the vineyards area. Because I was thinking your grandfather

404
00:26:07,312 --> 00:26:10,568
bought the château in Bordeaux in

405
00:26:10,664 --> 00:26:14,514
1975. That was not a great decade for

406
00:26:14,755 --> 00:26:18,075
Bordeaux. No, but it's part of the history. Maybe at a good price or something.

407
00:26:18,123 --> 00:26:21,475
That's why maybe he was able to buy it. Maybe you got a really

408
00:26:21,571 --> 00:26:23,929
good price. But it's funny because

409
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:28,725
originally, before the wine, we are cognac producers.

410
00:26:28,918 --> 00:26:32,721
My family is coming from cognac. I saw that.

411
00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:36,720
Is it still there? Yeah, it's still in the family. We do,

412
00:26:37,459 --> 00:26:41,201
and we produce a cognac under our

413
00:26:41,233 --> 00:26:44,926
family name, Tesseron Cognac. So let's talk about that for a

414
00:26:44,926 --> 00:26:47,705
second, because cognac, I adore

415
00:26:48,395 --> 00:26:52,073
cognac. I mean, I love cognac. And but it's

416
00:26:52,089 --> 00:26:55,927
not, you know, cognac, port, fortified wines, even late harvest

417
00:26:55,927 --> 00:26:59,163
wines, certainly less popular. Yes, true.

418
00:26:59,243 --> 00:27:01,878
Worldwide than they were. And

419
00:27:03,446 --> 00:27:06,744
has it affected your brand at all, or just you're not

420
00:27:07,148 --> 00:27:10,708
that big that you don't have to worry about too much? Yeah, like, you know,

421
00:27:10,725 --> 00:27:14,512
like everything, I think it's suffering for a little bit, but there

422
00:27:14,512 --> 00:27:18,192
are still people drinking a lot of cognac, and we try

423
00:27:18,304 --> 00:27:21,391
to be dynamic as well, to do a

424
00:27:21,857 --> 00:27:23,996
special limited edition,

425
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:28,027
to— we try to attract the new generation by,

426
00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:33,833
by producing younger cognac for making

427
00:27:33,945 --> 00:27:37,125
cocktails, for example. But originally, I mean,

428
00:27:37,237 --> 00:27:40,818
the, let's say, the DNA of

429
00:27:40,914 --> 00:27:44,141
our brand is to produce very old cognac.

430
00:27:44,768 --> 00:27:47,642
So we are known for producing

431
00:27:48,461 --> 00:27:52,186
high-end, special cognac, but we

432
00:27:52,314 --> 00:27:56,007
did, you know, we did, we have to adapt. I do

433
00:27:56,023 --> 00:27:59,332
make— I do make a— I'm very well known in my

434
00:27:59,332 --> 00:28:02,865
neighborhood for a drink called the

435
00:28:02,865 --> 00:28:05,306
Vieux Cray, which is

436
00:28:05,418 --> 00:28:09,096
cognac-based. Yes. And I think

437
00:28:09,096 --> 00:28:11,409
vermouth and bourbon.

438
00:28:12,308 --> 00:28:15,873
Okay. It's rather strong. It's a rather strong drink.

439
00:28:17,287 --> 00:28:21,093
You know, we have my brother-in-law, my sister-in-law in

440
00:28:21,157 --> 00:28:24,851
Bordeaux right now. They're going to stop at Château Bailly tomorrow. They're going to head

441
00:28:24,851 --> 00:28:28,590
to Troplong Troplong Mondot and, and Saint-Émilion

442
00:28:28,622 --> 00:28:32,153
because I told them they had to see, um, Hôtel

443
00:28:32,153 --> 00:28:35,812
Pavillon. Yeah. And hang out in the city. And I brought that up because

444
00:28:37,048 --> 00:28:40,225
the classification of— on the Right Bank is—

445
00:28:40,674 --> 00:28:44,430
includes a hospitality component. And I,

446
00:28:44,654 --> 00:28:48,458
I can say the, the last— we've been to Bordeaux many times since, but

447
00:28:48,506 --> 00:28:51,667
in 1993 when we went to Bordeaux for the first time, um,

448
00:28:52,438 --> 00:28:55,522
there was no such thing, right? There are no tasting rooms. Yes. They're all appointments

449
00:28:55,570 --> 00:28:59,313
only. And Napa, you know, Napa,

450
00:28:59,586 --> 00:29:03,312
you walked into or you bought into the idea of hospitality at Napa

451
00:29:03,312 --> 00:29:06,991
Valley. That's what it's about, right? That's tourism. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so different. I

452
00:29:06,991 --> 00:29:10,348
think we have to learn a lot from, from Napa. You know,

453
00:29:10,428 --> 00:29:14,203
tourism is important. But I think now Bordeaux

454
00:29:14,203 --> 00:29:17,801
has changed and Bordeaux is more, is more, is

455
00:29:17,897 --> 00:29:21,722
more open. You think that's true? I just came back. I told you, I

456
00:29:21,771 --> 00:29:24,744
just came back from Napa,

457
00:29:25,612 --> 00:29:29,117
and I love the way of how they

458
00:29:29,310 --> 00:29:32,462
host people. I mean, it's just

459
00:29:32,462 --> 00:29:35,650
incredible how the hospitality

460
00:29:35,683 --> 00:29:38,587
has been made. And I think

461
00:29:40,524 --> 00:29:43,493
we have to learn from that. And we just—

462
00:29:44,628 --> 00:29:48,151
Ourselves at Pimoré, we just opened a tasting

463
00:29:48,248 --> 00:29:51,985
lounge to be able to receive— Okay, now we're talking about progress.

464
00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:55,331
To receive people and host

465
00:29:55,331 --> 00:29:58,660
for tastings. Well, here's my opinion of this.

466
00:30:00,730 --> 00:30:03,939
The congestion at the supermarket, as a supermarché, it's

467
00:30:04,777 --> 00:30:08,180
wine after wine after wine. And how do you possibly differentiate yourself,

468
00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:13,553
particularly when you're battling the price, right? And, you know,

469
00:30:13,633 --> 00:30:17,165
winemaking— people are going to the wine shop. If you go to a wine shop,

470
00:30:17,261 --> 00:30:21,034
then you have the opinion of the wine shop owner, what they've

471
00:30:21,034 --> 00:30:23,795
tasted, what they lead you to based on what you drink. When you walk into

472
00:30:23,843 --> 00:30:27,343
the market, you have no chance, right? Yeah. It's just price and

473
00:30:28,001 --> 00:30:31,436
label, except for hospitality,

474
00:30:31,693 --> 00:30:35,305
where if you are entertaining and you have people coming in, that moment that they

475
00:30:35,305 --> 00:30:38,451
have a wine at your tasting lounge,

476
00:30:39,397 --> 00:30:42,941
they'll remember it forever. Yeah. And I really think that the

477
00:30:42,941 --> 00:30:46,772
experience of wine— Experience is the most important. Is going backwards. It's going back in

478
00:30:46,788 --> 00:30:49,835
time. I think, you know, people like,

479
00:30:50,652 --> 00:30:54,500
especially now, people like to get to feel,

480
00:30:54,628 --> 00:30:57,098
to have an experience. They remember.

481
00:30:58,172 --> 00:31:01,939
People who are coming to visit us, they come and they

482
00:31:02,020 --> 00:31:05,435
visit many different places, different wineries.

483
00:31:06,092 --> 00:31:08,803
They really get an interest. on that, but

484
00:31:10,103 --> 00:31:13,893
they, they want to live a different experience regarding where

485
00:31:13,893 --> 00:31:17,714
they are going. How many, how many do you think of those people

486
00:31:18,951 --> 00:31:22,692
are really knowledgeable that really, like, wanna study

487
00:31:22,885 --> 00:31:26,626
the wine, or just people that wanna have a relaxing

488
00:31:26,642 --> 00:31:30,415
experience and tell the story when they get home to their friends? We

489
00:31:30,415 --> 00:31:34,241
went to a château and Isn't that most of

490
00:31:34,257 --> 00:31:38,018
them? Say it again? Isn't that most of the people that come there?

491
00:31:38,066 --> 00:31:41,795
They're not wine— Yeah, I think so, because we

492
00:31:41,859 --> 00:31:45,406
understood that and we try to make them

493
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,108
having the best experience.

494
00:31:49,586 --> 00:31:52,148
So we bring people to the vineyard,

495
00:31:54,807 --> 00:31:57,680
we show them most of the things,

496
00:31:58,587 --> 00:32:02,297
we organize a tasting in the cellar, we

497
00:32:02,297 --> 00:32:03,301
also always come to,

498
00:32:06,344 --> 00:32:09,791
We try to come and say hello if we are at the

499
00:32:09,791 --> 00:32:13,110
property between my brother, my father, and myself. That's so valuable.

500
00:32:13,863 --> 00:32:17,487
You know, we try to bring something different. We

501
00:32:17,487 --> 00:32:21,014
were at Cheval Blanc, and we were entertained there. It was

502
00:32:21,014 --> 00:32:24,846
incredible. But a gentleman came down who was visiting. He

503
00:32:24,846 --> 00:32:27,460
was a French NBA player, Michael

504
00:32:27,893 --> 00:32:31,676
Pietrus. Pietrus, yes. And so he was visiting the

505
00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:35,350
château, and he came to say hi. I cannot tell you that

506
00:32:35,366 --> 00:32:38,322
every time I see my friends who I took on this trip, which was 12

507
00:32:38,338 --> 00:32:41,968
people, very hard to do. Yes, I guess.

508
00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:46,368
That they recall that experience. And if it was you as the

509
00:32:46,674 --> 00:32:50,480
propriétaire, same thing would've happened. They would've said, wow, they

510
00:32:50,544 --> 00:32:53,821
came and visited us. And I think even though that's one bottle at a time

511
00:32:53,821 --> 00:32:57,499
almost, I think that's where wine needs to be. But

512
00:32:57,531 --> 00:33:01,208
people remember that. So it's very important. So, the one thing about the

513
00:33:01,208 --> 00:33:05,010
Saint-Émilion classification is it does include that. And we know that Angelus,

514
00:33:05,058 --> 00:33:08,700
Cheval Blanc, and Figeac, I think, left the

515
00:33:09,085 --> 00:33:12,278
consortium because of the hospitality

516
00:33:12,278 --> 00:33:15,920
requirements. But at the same time, do you think that

517
00:33:15,984 --> 00:33:19,642
the Left Bank, that the class— it'll never change, I know that.

518
00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:24,070
But do you think that there's a component, a

519
00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:27,831
requirement one day that that's the case or no? Things have to really change.

520
00:33:28,347 --> 00:33:32,105
It's hard to say. I don't think it will change

521
00:33:32,621 --> 00:33:35,247
because, plus, it has been made, as you know, in

522
00:33:35,247 --> 00:33:38,816
1855. Monsieur

523
00:33:38,816 --> 00:33:42,647
Napoléon Bonaparte III, no? Hmm? It was Napoléon

524
00:33:42,663 --> 00:33:46,191
Bonaparte III. Yes. But we—

525
00:33:47,518 --> 00:33:51,240
it's hard to say. I hope it will not

526
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,802
change. Yeah. And people know

527
00:33:54,995 --> 00:33:57,942
that, you know, some of the châteaux are first, second,

528
00:33:58,538 --> 00:34:02,178
etc. We've been classified as fifth growth, and I

529
00:34:02,242 --> 00:34:05,876
think people know that in terms of quality, we are

530
00:34:07,629 --> 00:34:10,009
probably better if there is a new classification.

531
00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:15,222
But, you know, every time we see it in a— every time there

532
00:34:15,222 --> 00:34:18,956
is a new classification, there are You know, people are

533
00:34:18,988 --> 00:34:22,483
always complaining. So— I read

534
00:34:22,691 --> 00:34:26,394
the book Empress Eugénie. Yes. Do you

535
00:34:26,394 --> 00:34:29,087
know this? No, I don't know this. Well, it's a great book. She just came

536
00:34:29,087 --> 00:34:32,550
out. Yeah. The couple that wrote

537
00:34:32,935 --> 00:34:36,205
Wine and War. Okay. She did the research on Eugénie, which

538
00:34:36,718 --> 00:34:39,940
she had a lot to do with the classification of 1855. Yeah, sure. I'm sure.

539
00:34:39,988 --> 00:34:43,579
Right. So next time we come to Paris, which is November, I want to do

540
00:34:43,611 --> 00:34:47,329
a sort of not a walking tour, but sort of a tour of her influence

541
00:34:48,082 --> 00:34:50,966
in Paris, because apparently it was quite dramatic.

542
00:34:51,687 --> 00:34:55,533
That'd be really interesting to do. Well, you know, we're almost out of time here,

543
00:34:55,549 --> 00:34:58,401
but I got a couple of things that we have to do. Yes. One is,

544
00:34:59,539 --> 00:35:02,984
since you're here from Bordeaux, this is a book

545
00:35:04,025 --> 00:35:07,679
called Wine Is the Best Medicine. Dr. Murray,

546
00:35:07,791 --> 00:35:11,510
who's a real MD, real doctor, and a homeopathic doctor. So,

547
00:35:11,558 --> 00:35:15,346
he wrote a book about human maladies, things that could happen

548
00:35:15,346 --> 00:35:19,007
to us, and what wine best cures

549
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:22,619
that, or at least symptomatically. I don't know

550
00:35:22,667 --> 00:35:26,423
this book. I've never heard about

551
00:35:26,423 --> 00:35:30,228
it. Just to caution you, I'm going

552
00:35:30,228 --> 00:35:33,968
to give you 3 answers to the question, and everybody, most

553
00:35:33,968 --> 00:35:37,660
people, 2/3 of the people get it wrong because, you know, no one thinks like

554
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:41,264
the doctor. But more importantly is the reason that

555
00:35:41,523 --> 00:35:45,363
you chose this answer when I give you the choices. And then he

556
00:35:45,427 --> 00:35:49,107
also has a dosage here. Like how much of this wine should you drink

557
00:35:49,461 --> 00:35:53,303
if you have a problem? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we're gonna

558
00:35:53,303 --> 00:35:54,243
go with anemia.

559
00:35:58,070 --> 00:36:01,465
You know, the blood thinning. Oh, yes. Okay. Should you have

560
00:36:02,888 --> 00:36:06,549
a dry champagne A Graves' or a

561
00:36:06,549 --> 00:36:10,349
young Beaujolais to treat your anemia? And

562
00:36:10,446 --> 00:36:11,545
why is the question.

563
00:36:15,798 --> 00:36:18,786
I would say a Champagne. Why?

564
00:36:22,339 --> 00:36:25,991
Champagne, because I think, you know, bubbles

565
00:36:26,105 --> 00:36:28,627
make you feel always happy.

566
00:36:30,988 --> 00:36:34,488
So when you have a disease, Let's enjoy

567
00:36:34,616 --> 00:36:37,395
life. That's a good— see, that's a good reason.

568
00:36:37,749 --> 00:36:41,524
Champagne has that effect. We

569
00:36:41,524 --> 00:36:45,299
were talking about the Taittinger family. Clovis would tell you, I think you should drink

570
00:36:45,299 --> 00:36:49,122
champagne every day, which I agree with. I love champagne too. I agree with that.

571
00:36:49,797 --> 00:36:53,620
Well, you were wrong. I was sure I was

572
00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:57,508
wrong. I kind of set you up because it was a Graves. Okay. You know,

573
00:36:57,524 --> 00:37:00,929
something from the South, I think. And here's why. Why? So, doctor says,

574
00:37:01,604 --> 00:37:05,123
Anemia, or a pathological decrease in the number of red blood cells,

575
00:37:05,139 --> 00:37:08,979
manifests itself in a variety of disorders, among which are constant

576
00:37:08,979 --> 00:37:12,770
fatigue, vertigo, and lack of general tone. It is therefore

577
00:37:12,770 --> 00:37:16,402
advisable, independent of other treatment

578
00:37:16,450 --> 00:37:20,081
proper for this type of disease, to give the patient a supplementary

579
00:37:20,081 --> 00:37:23,792
amount of iron. Okay. Did you know GROV has more

580
00:37:23,857 --> 00:37:27,391
iron? So, because of the iron content,

581
00:37:27,632 --> 00:37:31,362
The wine produces this type of wine that's cultivated on pure

582
00:37:31,411 --> 00:37:35,141
sand containing iron particles in a soluble form. How

583
00:37:35,173 --> 00:37:38,729
interesting is that? Interesting. Yes. And then it

584
00:37:38,745 --> 00:37:42,516
says, what would be your typical dosage, do you think, of this?

585
00:37:45,089 --> 00:37:48,811
Hmm. I don't know, 2 glasses per day? Well, you're close. It's

586
00:37:48,811 --> 00:37:52,613
2 glasses per meal. Per meal. Who doesn't do that anyway? Don't we do that

587
00:37:52,613 --> 00:37:56,370
anyway? So, in terms of— I love it. That's

588
00:37:56,370 --> 00:37:59,050
a great book. You know, we have a couple minutes. I'd like to taste this.

589
00:37:59,050 --> 00:38:02,230
Yeah, please. And this is, um, what vintage is this?

590
00:38:02,230 --> 00:38:06,050
Um, it's 2012. Oh, 2012. Well, look, the

591
00:38:06,050 --> 00:38:09,770
color's great. And so this is, uh,

592
00:38:09,770 --> 00:38:11,850
2012 Pontet-Canet. So that was,

593
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:16,970
um, for me, you know, it's, um, for '11

594
00:38:16,970 --> 00:38:20,770
and '12, it was difficult because they arrived after '09 and '10, which

595
00:38:20,770 --> 00:38:23,030
were so famous in Bordeaux. Yes. And at that time,

596
00:38:24,983 --> 00:38:28,182
time when they released, nobody wanted to hear about them.

597
00:38:28,925 --> 00:38:32,738
But after 10 years, people are really looking into this kind

598
00:38:32,738 --> 00:38:36,034
of wine because they are just so expressive,

599
00:38:36,660 --> 00:38:40,018
very aromatic wines, very open.

600
00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:43,315
Yeah. There's a ton going on in this wine.

601
00:38:44,477 --> 00:38:48,190
And for us, 2012 was the first

602
00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:52,024
year we started to use

603
00:38:52,503 --> 00:38:55,961
small concrete amphoras. for the aging process.

604
00:38:56,814 --> 00:39:00,615
So from that vintage, all

605
00:39:01,856 --> 00:39:04,752
of the wines has about 30, 35%

606
00:39:06,572 --> 00:39:09,906
going into concrete for aging. The rest is still going in oak,

607
00:39:10,770 --> 00:39:14,031
but it brings more

608
00:39:14,096 --> 00:39:16,393
purity of fruit, more freshness.

609
00:39:18,113 --> 00:39:21,504
I do like that. I think one of the Napa

610
00:39:22,203 --> 00:39:25,696
problems is too much oak. It's very interesting because

611
00:39:26,529 --> 00:39:29,334
you probably haven't had Armenian wines yet, but

612
00:39:30,439 --> 00:39:34,173
because of the freedom came in Armenia in 1991, that the

613
00:39:34,221 --> 00:39:37,667
technology for winemaking was arrested for all the

614
00:39:37,667 --> 00:39:41,400
Soviet era. And so now, and what's their first inclination?

615
00:39:41,993 --> 00:39:45,647
Oak. We need to oak everything. And so, because

616
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,510
that's what you do, you should do, or they think they should do. And so,

617
00:39:50,343 --> 00:39:54,046
the indigenous grape of Armenia is called Areni. In

618
00:39:54,094 --> 00:39:57,573
fact, you might know Areni Global, the wine think tank

619
00:39:58,487 --> 00:40:01,629
out of the Rhône, but it doesn't like oak,

620
00:40:02,414 --> 00:40:06,005
in my professional opinion. It does much better in

621
00:40:06,101 --> 00:40:09,804
concrete, and they should be using eggs and amphora,

622
00:40:09,884 --> 00:40:13,731
not oak, in my opinion. Yes. Well, it depends.

623
00:40:13,811 --> 00:40:17,370
We need oak to sometimes soften the

624
00:40:17,482 --> 00:40:20,520
tannins, to bring some different different aromas to the wine.

625
00:40:21,221 --> 00:40:24,858
But we, I mean, we have, it's a question of balance.

626
00:40:26,162 --> 00:40:29,296
We, if it's, if it's too

627
00:40:29,923 --> 00:40:33,458
oaky, it's like too much makeup. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you don't,

628
00:40:34,101 --> 00:40:37,610
you don't feel the terroir, you don't feel the expression of the

629
00:40:37,658 --> 00:40:40,927
fruits. So it's, yeah, I think it's important to,

630
00:40:41,690 --> 00:40:45,232
to find the right, the right balance. There's a wonderful

631
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,586
acidity to this wine still. Yes, I love that wine now. And then

632
00:40:49,683 --> 00:40:53,136
there's a cedar component. The complexity is

633
00:40:53,168 --> 00:40:56,653
amazing. Whoops. We know they're crystal,

634
00:40:57,201 --> 00:41:00,316
don't we? Cheers, Paul, by the way. This is great. Cheers.

635
00:41:00,913 --> 00:41:04,431
Yeah, I never thought of this. Thank you for being on the show and spending

636
00:41:04,447 --> 00:41:07,674
the time with me today. I know you got to travel tonight, so it's going

637
00:41:07,690 --> 00:41:10,518
to be a long flight back. Happy to be here. It's a nice

638
00:41:11,343 --> 00:41:15,168
Nice studio. Thank you. Do you, do you, are you

639
00:41:15,184 --> 00:41:18,736
at Wine Paris? Do you have a booth there? We are. Okay, so I'll be

640
00:41:18,736 --> 00:41:21,803
seeing you there. We are, uh, we have, um, we have a booth for the,

641
00:41:22,062 --> 00:41:25,865
for the cognac. So we are there every year,

642
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,235
every year, every, every fair. But not the— No.

643
00:41:30,607 --> 00:41:34,426
Well, we do, uh, but we are represented

644
00:41:34,426 --> 00:41:37,765
by the negotiants. Oh yeah. Okay. So Bordeaux. So we don't have any booth for

645
00:41:37,765 --> 00:41:40,374
the, for the wine. But are you in that Bordeaux tasting area, which is incredible?

646
00:41:40,424 --> 00:41:43,641
No, we are not. Are you kidding?

647
00:41:44,572 --> 00:41:47,929
We are not. No, we are not part of the UGC.

648
00:41:48,266 --> 00:41:52,040
Yeah. Oh, I see. Okay. So we are not

649
00:41:52,056 --> 00:41:55,894
participating into this tasting. Are you

650
00:41:55,894 --> 00:41:59,282
going there? I told my wife we're going there. We went,

651
00:42:00,567 --> 00:42:04,389
as we wrap this up, but my daughter lives with me with her 3 grandchildren,

652
00:42:04,421 --> 00:42:08,179
my 3 grandchildren, because they were displaced by the fires here in Southern California.

653
00:42:08,837 --> 00:42:12,470
So they've been living with us for 18 months. So it's, you know, if I

654
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:15,990
can get my wife out of the house, and usually she's not very good about

655
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:19,830
like one week notice, especially to travel to Europe. I said, hey, why

656
00:42:19,830 --> 00:42:23,510
don't we go to Paris for the week? Paris is good. Paris is a— And

657
00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:25,970
she's like, yeah, I think I'd like to do that. So we were there for

658
00:42:25,970 --> 00:42:29,650
the week. I did a couple podcasts. I want to do

659
00:42:29,650 --> 00:42:32,290
that again. So I think it's going to be an annual trip for a little

660
00:42:32,290 --> 00:42:35,950
while. That's great. Yeah. Good idea. And we'll come jump on the

661
00:42:35,950 --> 00:42:39,428
TV, TGV or TVG? TGV. Down and

662
00:42:39,686 --> 00:42:43,223
jump in the Bordeaux and come see you. Cheers. Cheers.

663
00:42:43,481 --> 00:42:44,709
Thank you, Paul. Thank you.