The Hidden Power of Emotion in Selling World-Class Wine; Thomas Sequy of Troplong Mondot

0:00 I think for me, more than selling the bottles, you need to sell emotion. You need to sell a story behind. We have a story. We have things to say to our end consumer. And for me, this is the most important part. If you are selling a bottle just for a price, for prestige, let's say, forget it. This is definitely not very interesting. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and we are in studio today, a beautiful October morning. We are going to have a conversation with Thomas Seguy. Great. How's that? Pretty good, huh? Yeah, that's pronounced well. Thank you. He's from Troplong Mondot on the Saint-Émilion side, the Right Bank of Bordeaux. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Paul. Thank you for hosting me today. You're making the tour, right? You're headed all over.

0:52 United States. What are you doing? I'm starting by San Francisco. I just landed on last Sunday and I'm spending a few days here. I'm making a tour with Duclos, which is a great partner here for us in the US and worldwide, I would say. Then I'm here in LA today and I'm going to New York tonight. How often do you leave Bordeaux and come to— Let's say around 90 days a year, roughly. Really? Wow. That's considerable. Yeah, yeah. We travel a lot because we feel that for a winery like us, it's very important to be present on the market. Markets. We are selling our wines. So that's why we are helping, first of all, our négociant. Perhaps you, you're, you're, uh, you know about the system of Bordeaux.

1:36 It's a complex system, but very interesting too. And so we have these links between the négociants, between the importers we are working with, and quite often also with the final consumer, those people that we're going to meet during wine dinner, during sometimes masterclass. We also met many sommeliers, all the wine industry that we can touch in a country is important for us to visit and to speak about our wines. Listen, I don't think I've ever discussed this on the show. And because Bordeaux is such a unique part of the wine world, it's probably the most well-known part of the wine world. Let's discuss that distribution section for just a second because we're gonna get into the marketability of wine, what's going on in the marketplace today.

2:19 But Bordeaux, in its infancy, when it was young, and it still has this this distribution method, négociants were the main players for getting wine into the world from Bordeaux. In other words, the châteaux themselves were not responsible for distribution. Exactly. And it seems to be, you know, Duclos is a négociant, but now we have the 3-tier system in America and all the other ways of distributing wine in the world. Is it sort of a combination of all different things as far as What's happening today, négociants, distributors, and direct-to-consumer? What do you mean by that? Well, you have négociants like Duclos. Yes. But then you have distributors like Southern. Exactly. Yeah. Right? And then you also probably do direct-to-consumer or not? We don't do direct-to-consumer, except if we sell a few bottles to our boutique, because we also have an otorisme, which is a very important part of our activity. But it remains in a very, very small proportion, because it's just because for people, just coming to visit the wineries. But I would say 99% of the business will be through the négociant first. This is the first step. And then it goes to the importers. And then you mentioned the free trade system in the US, which is a particular system. But in another country, like, I don't know, UK, for example, you have importers that could sell directly to its own private customers or also distribution system.

3:44 So each country is a bit different. That's interesting because There, I remember early on in the days when I started working in the wine trade, it would say négociants. I forgot the, this transition word, but élève, right? So that, that, that in the old school of négociants, they actually elevated the wines, either aged it further, they put it back in barrel. Yeah, it's true. Or whatever. Yeah. And I don't, that's not as much part of the process anymore. No, nowadays, because there is the en primeur system. So usually, usually at the origin of the négociant system, a winery was only focused on the production. So as part as the wine was ready to be sold on the market, the négociant, at that time, it was perhaps 100 years ago, the négociant was coming into the winery and say, I'm going to buy a proportion, a percentage of your wines, something that we call nowadays an allocation. And these wines at the origin were purchased as a juice. It was even not a bottle. And the négociant was aging his, as you mentioned, aging his wine in the Quai des Chartrons, for example. Yes. And then he was bottling the wines and resell it through the world, different markets.

4:57 This is the origin. And then nowadays we are talking about distribution in bottles. So everything is bottled at the wineries. You have even the mention on the château, on the label, sorry, bottled at the winery, which is 100% nowadays of the business. And we have this system of en primeurs. So you put on the market a wine which is not yet ready. So it gives to the winery an advantage of cash flow to invest in the next harvest. So, because at that time, back in the few decades ago, it was necessary for wineries to have enough cash flow to be able to finance a harvest. It's costly to have that. You have to finance the picker, you have to finance the barrel, which is very expensive, a barrel.

5:46 But you don't buy 1 or 2 barrels. You need to buy, for wineries, 200, 300 sometimes. It's very big volumes. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hundreds. And imagine the cost of that. You have to finance your truck, you have to finance your— as I mentioned, the picker, you have to mention everything, your tanks, and the cost of production. So that was the origin. And then progressively also, it became really interesting because at the origin, you were mentioning, you were putting on this profile of business, en primeur, a lower price. So supposedly, at that time, you were buying the wines— Mm-hmm. Not yet available, but at a better price. And 2 years after, you were supposed to make a bit of return on investment.

6:32 I want to stop you there for a second. It's kind of interesting because we were talking about the Château Montelena briefly, and I was listening to a podcast with the president. They were in California. It's a little different. It's the New World. You've got more opportunities. You're not handcuffed by the traditions, which I'm not disparaging. I think I'm jealous of the traditions of the French, and the French are jealous of the opportunities in America. But so it's It's— the grass is always greener, right? But he was talking about the idea they still make Riesling at this very well-known château in Napa, Northern Napa and Calistoga. And the reason they do that is because Riesling is a cash grape. You don't have to age it, you don't have to have barrels, you stainless steel ferment it, and in 3 months you're in the bottle on the street. And I, and I had never thought about that concept that the cash comes in. You can't do that in Bordeaux. No. So the en primeur system replaces that idea, or at least supplements that idea. But let me ask you this question. There's a lot of criticism of the wine trade right now. We, we've— we'll discuss, you know, the dip in sales and all the things going on with the generations, whether anybody really knows the answer.

7:40 I don't know. Yeah. But, um, if we went from being the négociants-élèves, which was the main methodology for many, many types of districts of the world for for wine. And we're slowly making these changes. And that is a criticism of the wine trade, that we're too slow, that we don't react to the markets, that we're not consumer-driven. All the things that you can read about how bad we are. Do you agree with that? Do you think that some of these methodologies are still just too slow and old, or this is— the tradition is too important to give up? No, I think Bordeaux, talking about Bordeaux, but also a different region, but the We understand the consumer, but produce— changing, make a shift like we did in Troplong Mondot in the past vintage, it doesn't take 2 months.

8:29 You can't say, okay, the consumer doesn't like anymore the way we do wines, we're going to change, and within, like, a year, everything will be on the line of what the end consumer is supposed to like. Wine is a long-term vision. You don't produce wine for, let's say, in the next semester or the next year. When you produce a bottle of Troplong Mondot, when we release a wine like a '22, '23 vintage, it's already nice to appreciate this wine. But consider that perhaps in 20, 40 years, the wine will be even more better. Mm-hmm. You will have emotion on this wine during a very long period. So perhaps the problem of distribution we are facing today, I'm thinking about the en primeur system, of course, the decrease of the consumption of the new generation is a mix of many things. But to be honest with you, in the past 10 years, what we saw in Bordeaux is a big shift in terms of quality. We never drank better quality in Bordeaux. It never existed before. I agree with that. Yeah. I used to say Bordeaux nowadays is like the Silicon Valley of the wine. Because in Bordeaux, we, for sure, Bordeaux earned a lot of money in the past decades with China market was Pretty big market. But this money was reinvested, which is very important. There is— this is definitely a region in the world, which is perhaps the only one, where you can have an analysis of your wines within 2 hours. Mm-hmm. So this is

10:01 crazy good for— and so you increase your quality. And nowadays, if you speak with winemakers, merchants, sommeliers, all the industry, they will tell you Bordeaux is producing the best value wine in the world. Stupid. I, I— it's funny you said that, and, and it's not— this relatively current— I mean, that's relatively new. You even on, on the other side of this wall where I tasted wine for 35 years, you know, I saw the evolution, right? Everything that came in the door on a Tuesday was an expression of the current time, and whether it was trying to be discounted to get it out because it wasn't working, even though it's good wine, but the idea was not— was failing, whatever they were trying to do, or It was just a sign of the things that were coming into America. And I have to say that currently, and I'm going to say in the last few years, 2 to 3 years, the expression of Bordeaux in general has been incredible. And the pricing has been really quite fair. Yeah. And when you consider the Napa counterpart, there's no, in my opinion, there's no comparison. I shouldn't say this, but the value expression with the complexity And the quality of the wines in even an entry-level Bordeaux compared to an entry-level Napa is superior.

11:20 Yeah. Why is that happening? Because Bordeaux has— perhaps we forget that, but Bordeaux remained a value for money since the beginning of the history of Bordeaux, producing a beautiful Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, or on the terroir of Fronsac, of Médoc, of Saint-Émilion, of course, at good price, fair price. It's still the case nowadays. We still have amazing value. Is it the same in the US? I don't have the real price in mind in the US, but in Bordeaux, when you go to a cellar, below €20, you will find amazing wines, amazing value. And sometimes it's even more interesting, wines which are aged you can purchase some '05 vintage, '04, '02 vintage from a simple winery on the plateau of Saint-Émilion or in the Médoc side, which is still very nice to drink, to appreciate nowadays, below €20.

12:19 I wonder if it has something to do with— and let's see if I can articulate this properly, but the idea of a second label was really just that for many, many, many, many years. just, this is the second label. And it was sort of an introduction. Yeah. And it was, it was a min— it was minimized a little bit, right? You know, this is not the best grapes we have. It's not the best parcels we have. Youngest vines usually. Yes. And it seems to have been a shift in Bordeaux that no longer is the second label to be second. It's to be a different brand, a, a brand that has a different expression, and that, that venting that brand has its own methodologies, its own reasons. Identity, sometimes terroir as well. Yeah. For Troplong Mondot, it's a bit different for Troplong Mondot and so Mondot.

13:07 Mondot used to be a second wine at Troplong Mondot. We were producing Mondot inside of the same terroir plots area. But since, as I mentioned just before the beginning of this interview, we purchased 10 hectares next to, which is just, you cross the road and you have our terroir there. And those 10 hectares remain completely dedicated for Mondot. So we have a single estate. That's why nowadays we are not mentioning anymore the terms second wine. Right. It's a single estate with its own identity, the same philosophy of winemaking that we apply at Troplong Mondot. And so for us, yes, it's an introduction, of course, and it's also something that helps us to show something which is more on the daily drinking wines.

13:51 Very, as I mentioned as well, easy to understand for the end consumer with a beautiful, fresh aromatic and one of the most important points, drinkable on its youth, which is something we are looking more and more in Bordeaux, and not only on Mondeux, but as well on Troplong Mondot. I wonder if that's the thing. We'll talk about the generations now. But what about you? What, I mean, you went to business school? Yes. And you— In Bordeaux. Were you— well, I guess that would— Of course. I guess that would sort of teach you something about what's going on over there. But was that what your plan was, was to get in the wine trade? Yeah, I think, oh, quite, quite early, I, I decide to, I had a few opportunities. I went to Africa. I was working for Jack Daniel's in Africa, which is really— yeah, I had this internship at the time. It was in 2010. What do they do with Jack? What does Jack Daniel's do in Africa? Yeah, I don't know. There is a simple reason is that on the West Coast, French-speaking country like Ivory Coast, and the exception was Ghana, was the distribution was made by a French big company that we call Les Grands Chefs de France. And Les Grands Chefs de France, they had this, this distribution. We call it a carte de distribution in French.

15:03 And so I was sent like internship to follow the sales of the Jack Daniel's in Ivory Coast and then in Ghana. You'll see a Jack Daniel's truck. It's Southern, I think, that distributes now. I can't remember. But anyway, they have a new pitch. It's quite interesting because being a bourbon guy and American whiskey is bourbon. It says not Scotch, not bourbon, Jack. Jack. Yeah, I remember that. Which is interesting. It's not grown, it's not made in the Bourbon District of America. It's not obviously not made in Scotland. And so it is an American whiskey. American whiskey. And so you got to sell this in Africa. I got to sell this.

15:47 Yeah. Was interesting experience, the first one. And then I went through China. I was working in Hong Kong and Guangzhou, south side of China, which was the amazing experience for me because we were at at the top period, it was around 12, 13, in 2013, 2012. And at that time, the business was very high. Everything was possible in this country. I used to say it's like being in the US in the '50s, you know, where everything was going up. The economy was in a crazy expansion. So it was interesting. And then I went back to France. I finished my study by a master's degree in the wine industry. And by that, I start working in wine as a merchant first during 5 6 years, mainly focused on the Asian markets. And I'm in Trois Le Mondes since nearly 3 years now.

16:36 Okay, so that's an interesting question. Yeah. Because if you go to Harvard Business School, any kind of business school, I was a business school major. I tutored master's students at USC in my particular specialty that I liked. And then there's the book, like, What They Won't Teach You at Harvard Business School, right? Academia is different than the street. So when you got done with your degree, master's degree at business school, it's at Kedge, I guess. Yeah, yeah, it's Kedge. Yeah. What struck you when you went onto the floor? There I am on the floor of my dad's store trying to sell some wine. What didn't they teach you? What part of that experience working the floor did you go, wait a minute, this is not exactly what I thought it was gonna be? Yeah.

17:24 It's true that the academy is not really something that shows you what you mean, what you mentioned, the field. Yeah, the rue. Yeah, yeah, la rue, exactly. No, the good thing is, for me, the academy I have was— the interesting one was the mix we had between the scientist one regarding the wine. How do you produce wine? How do you— that's what— that was something which was the most important in this part. After, The studies regarding the law of the wines, the marketing of the wines, yeah, was not the best part of that. I agree. I agree. And you learn more, you learn more on the field. You learn how to make the good connection. You learn some— yeah, I think it's a— It's the most important. For instance, when I read LinkedIn now, and I've actually started to stay away from it because it's just a lot of jibber jabber. That's an American word, jibber jabber. Just talking.

18:24 Yeah. And I keep thinking, half of these people, maybe more than half of these people, maybe all of them have never gone on the street, tried to sell a bottle of wine. It's all theory. Maybe some worked at a wine shop for a little bit, but they just have this opinion of what should be happening when they really don't understand what the objections are, what people are seeing, what they're talking about. you know, what it takes to hold that bottle of wine like in that picture and try and sell it. It's just a different thing. Which leads me to this. Here you are making your tours. I believe that this industry is going back to those types of experiences where if we're going to show— and I wrote this down— if we're going to try to explain to a consumer the emotion in that bottle, glass of wine, which you and I sense immediately, we need to just sit. Yeah.

19:20 Just talk to them. Yeah, you need to. I think for me, more than selling the bottles, you need to sell emotion. You need to sell a story behind. And a winery, every winery, not only Troplong Mondot, of course, we have a story. We have things to say to our end consumer. And for me, this is the most important part. If you are selling a bottle just for a price, for prestige, let's say, forget. This is definitely not very interesting. However, if you sell a bottle of wine because it's not yet well known in the country, or you have a new label, like Mondeux is not new, but we try to— it's a new approach, what we say. And this is why I love my job at Troplong Mondot, is because we are showing nowadays a new approach of winemaking. There is a story behind, there is a We discuss about the fact that we have many activity on the winery. So there is many things. So more than selling a price, more than selling a Merlot, a grapes variety wine, blah, blah, blah, we are selling emotion. We are selling what people expect in the wine. When you walk down the aisle at the market, and it leads to what you're saying, there's a label after label after label. And this is one of the things that that even after 35 years, the revelation or the thought I had at Wine Paris as I'm walking through Building 7, you know, it's the 7,000th, you know, booth,

20:50 right? All— let's just say for you and I, let's say the average booth has, you know, some have hundreds of wines, some have a dozen. Okay, let's say there's 50 to 100 wines per booth average. At least. Okay. Perhaps. Yeah. So let's say it's a million bottles. Yeah. Close to a million bottles. Is there any other product in the world that you should go to a convention and all million bottles are striving for the same thing? On sale, off sale, bulk, you know? Yeah. That's it. That's it. Yeah. And you're standing next to the guy or the woman who's trying to compete against you for the same spot. And the guy that walks up and tastes wine, or the person who walks up and tastes wine, that you're competing for that same spot.

21:31 But there's a certain amount of camaraderie to all of this. But the point I'm making is, how do you differentiate yourself? It can only be in the story you're telling right now, in the emotion. Well, of course, that is a very big major point, but it's true also that we have to consider that Troplong Mondot is not entry-level wines. We are in a classification system as well. We are on the classification of Saint-Émilion. We are first growth. So you are not selling a first growth like that, like you could sell an entry-level. You mentioned the bulk. This is definitely not the same profile of sales. But in the middle of those large portfolios of fine wines that you could find in Bordeaux, in Burgundy, in Napa, you mentioned as well, or do you make a differentiation between all those big names, all those big fine wines, which are all great reputation? So you have to be, yeah, on the— So you said something important, the classification system, which just changed with Santomyon, and some of the big players exited because they didn't want to deal with it. And so in Armenia, for instance, where I spent a lot of time, I'm going out there to do a couple of shows, they could never ever get together as a group and come up with the idea of a classification It's not in their DNA to do that.

22:58 And so is the classification system— because a lot of people, now they don't poo-poo it, but they sort of look at the 1855 classification of the Left Bank and go, yeah, well, you know, they did this thing and it doesn't even include the vineyard. It really is just the château. And, you know, you can poke holes in it all day long. And the Saint-Émilion system seems to be— or the Right Bank system seems to be a little more precise, a little more regulated. But is it an attempt to give the consumer some confidence, or is it a marketing attempt so that people say, oh, they're part of the Grand Cru Classé, or is it kind of like the point system where I don't know how much impact it has anymore? The impact of the Saint-Émilion classification is definitely not the same as it is on the 1855s you mentioned, which is fixed classification. You will never be able to be going or— Unless you're 1973 and you're Mouton. You know the motto of Mouton. No, Mouton I was, first, second I was, first I am, Mouton I remain, which is great. I like that. Yeah, that's great. And except that, of course, but back to Saint-Émilion, Saint-Émilion classification was just created just after the Second World War in the 1950s. They did the classification and every 10 years you go back, let's say, to school and you have an examination of the past 10 vintage, but not only your vintage, also the ratings, also how you can welcome people into your wineries. So there is a different examination,

24:31 different parts of that is examined. And at the end, you stay, you go up, or you go down. And so it makes, at the end, the entrance of Angelus in '12, the exit of Cheval, then Cheval and Ozone together, then Angelus, create a kind of— A triangle. misunderstanding for the Henne country and Figeac. So, yeah. So that's interesting to know. It's not easy. It's not easy. It's not very collective, I would say. We need more collective to be all together. But I understand that those, the departure of those great châteaux was based on the fact that the classification started to include hospitality and other things, which I'm not judging. I'm just, you know, calling out that that's what they're doing versus you know, the older classification.

25:24 And how does the consumer even know? Like, I see Grand Cru Classé on here. Yeah. What does the group do for the consumer to understand what the Centennial classification means? Because it does have more granular meaning than the 1855. Yeah. Because it comes with regulations, you know, that are, that are dynamic, hopefully dynamic, because the consumer's changing. Yeah. But there is, except few tastings that we are doing, La Jurade, when you taste the wines from each winery in the classification, there is no real promotion, collective promotion altogether. The classification, it's more, I will say, a kind of administration stuff that Okay, where I am, I am in Saint-Émilion. For the consumer, I try to— it's not easy. I agree with you. I am in Saint-Émilion. So do I want to drink a classified grow? If it's classified, you have the classified, simple classified, or the first grow A or B. We are part of B. So it's truly a bit difficult. I don't think the public understands this. No, it's not easy. But go to Burgundy as well. It's difficult for the end consumer. Oh, do you Corton Premier Cru? First, I mean, it's difficult, definitely.

26:45 difficult. So, you know, it's interesting too, because these are gorgeous wines. And certainly you and I know, doing this all the time, having done it for many years, that the price point sometimes has nothing to do with the quality or the value. Sometimes the price point can be very good and the value can be very high as well. And I have, you know, my current list of clients that I deal with are mostly collectors, all collectors really. And some collectors that really study, you know, they understand this. They understand, yeah. They look at it, they understand that they want to taste, they want to know more. Clarice has been the benefactor of all this in recent days. And then I have other collectors that only collected because they don't really understand. I'm hoping they want to understand, but they just go by l'étiquette, right? They just go by the label. Yeah, they both do. To see what they have. And that's kind of interesting. Yeah. And I think our job, and this podcast is about for the consumer side, is to move them along from the supermarket wine, from the same old Josh and Apothic Red and all the other things that are out there, and teach them the emotion of an honest glass of wine. And it seems that the only thing you can really do, and we just did it the other day for Château Bailly at a my niece's house. We put on a dinner and I thought this was, I just, I found it fascinating. It's such an organic old school approach. Sit down,

28:18 here's what's in your glass. You, the internet's not gonna help you here. No. Digital marketing's not gonna help you here. The metric, you know, return on ad spend's not gonna work here. You've got to just understand the wines. Understand, or trust your own emotion also. It's— I don't know if you remember your first good glasses of wine. I still remember that. And for me, it was just a pure emotion. So— It does. It hits you. Yeah, of course. And I think if you talk about your private collectors, ask them how they enter in the wine. Why did they enter? Except the fact that you— because it's trendy to have a beautiful cellar, blah, blah, blah. Except that. It gives you an emotion, you know? And this is the most important part.

29:07 Sharing a bottle with your good friends, best friends, collectors like you, sharing the same passion. Oh, I sourced an amazing Troplong Mondot '85. I purchased that. Next week, what do you do? We're going to open it together. And you're going to share that. You will never open the best bottle in your mind alone. Of course. Yeah, of course. You will never have that. No. No, you will— if, let's say, you have the opportunity to drink the best bottles you wish, and you will never do it alone. You will call your best friend, your wife, your children, I don't know, the person you think is the best to share the wine. And this is why wine is crazy for that. I wonder if that conversation is a better conversation to have with a sommelier or with a restaurateur or with a store owner about the emotion rather than the ingredients. Instead of saying this is 60% Merlot and 40% Cabernet Franc, that we talk about how this makes you feel when you taste it and when you have this honest glass of wine. Because that's why I call them the honest glass of wine, which is really unadulterated, not meant to be the same every vintage, reflect the vintage. In my definition, which I've got some agreement on, which is there's no such thing as a If wines like Troplong Mondot are honest, there's no such thing as a bad vintage.

30:33 No. Because if the definition of the vintage is to represent the terroir at the moment, the time it was picked and made, then that's— if it does that job, then it's a success. Of course. Yeah. It may taste different. It tastes different for me. Yeah, of course. What is Bordeaux doing in regards to research to understand? I've had people sit in that chair that you're sitting in who have brought canned wines to the market, who have brought 375s to the market, calling them quality wines in a small format. And the wines aren't quality. Small formats have been around forever. Mm-hmm. Nothing new, but trying to market to these generations Does Bordeaux supply research? And what are you guys finding? Gen Zs, millennials, and on out, all this crazy stuff.

31:28 Do you have to just put your head down and, like, get rid of the noise? The project, Bordeaux is working a lot, is quite linked actually with the University of Bordeaux, Science University of Wines. They do a lot of research about the global warming impacts on the vines. Of course, we don't know how it's gonna happen. We start to know what's gonna happen with the Merlot, where you let grow the Merlot, if the impact of the heat we had, for example, this summer, going to have a big impact of your harvest this year or in the next future vintage. We, at the winery, invest a lot also in not a proper scientist research, but every year we learn more about the previous vintage. How do we going to do? For example, I was talking with the winemaker last week, just last week, and And this year, our maceration, cold maceration that we start by, are longer than they used to be in the past. We just try new approach, and it works well. We are quite happy with that because by doing that, by doing longer maceration, cold maceration like that, we earn in aromatic, which is a great surprise. Yeah. So step by step, you learn your terroir by doing the vinification we are making nowadays. We are learning a lot, and we are able to increase our quality perhaps in the future vintage. This is part, but globally, scientifically speaking,

32:59 in Bordeaux, there is many chaires de recherche, which is a university who's investing a lot of their time in the research or to make a forecast of what's going to be. in 20, 50, or even 100 years in Bordeaux. What was the grape variety? Did harvest start early this year? Crazy early. Crazy early? Yeah, yeah. This year, we are beating the new records. Really? Yeah. And the first, alors, '26 was 19th of August, which is nearly 9 days earlier than the previous record, which was '25 on 28th. And '22 was 29th of August.

33:41 Usually, when you— my generation, father's parent generation, it was late September. You were starting the harvest late September, and on a good vintage, you were finishing early and very late October, early November. So nowadays, the harvest starts much earlier. Also, for a reason that we choose at Troplong Mondot is that we try to collect our grapes at the right times, not overripe, not too acid. We always take a good example to explain why we are harvesting at that time and not because we want to be the first one. It's completely— the main reason I give this example, let's say we are producing apricot together. You are planting apricot here in Los Angeles, and me, I'm planting my apricot in Saint-Émilion, okay? If we collect the apricot together at the highest ripe, at the moment which is the highest ripe, ripe, ripe, overripe, we're going to taste it together, my apricot and your, and we will have a very sweet, full sugar, okay? Of course. If we collect the apricot at the time that is the best one for Saint-Émilion, and you, perhaps it's going to be, let's say, 10 days before you, and you, it's going to be 10 days later, and then we taste. And your apricot will have the taste of your terroir here, and my apricot will have the taste of Saint-Émilion.

35:04 And this is exactly what we want to do. That's an interesting thought. I've never heard anybody say it like that. We want to, yeah, we want to make a wine which is reflecting our terroir, the sense of place we want to express. Okay, let me stop you there. Who cares? And I don't mean that derogatorily. No, no, no, it's interesting. I mean that, like, How do we make people care? For instance, and I've been playing with a lot of AI lately, my wife hates it because I'm always doing something silly. But I made a little series the other day of a sommelier. He walks up to the table and there's a couple there and they have the wine list and he speaks gibberish. No language. It's just Noise, and the concept of this video is this is what some of your customers hear. You walk up to the table; you're trying to sell them about a Truong Mondo, but you're talking in a language they don't understand. It might as well just be da da da da da. Yeah, yeah, and understood versus yeah. The second part of the video is the conversation that that they would understand. And so, are you training somms as you make these tours and wine shop owners to speak the language that these people understand? Oh, yes.

36:30 Back what you say, do they understand? Do you really— the example I took about the apricot, do we feel it nowadays on the wine? Of course. And this is the major point. This is— it was an illustration. What I was saying was an illustration. And nowadays, and you try to— But that's an interesting thought. Yeah. The idea that you pick— To let the terroir express. The ripeness for the terroir, rather than the vine. It's a major point. It's a major point because thanks to that, you will have amazing expression of your terroir. You won't anymore do something which could be considered as overripe, so over-extracted too. We try— when I say reflecting the terroir is very important because at the end, it's what you have.

37:15 Like, if we eat a frozen tomato and if we eat an amazing tomato that was grown on a beautiful terroir, which give a taste, which is very, very tasty, it's very important. And you will feel like me, we will feel it. You know what I mean? And this is— and the wine is the same. As soon as you are making something which is definitely showing the terroir, you will feel it. And we feel it nowadays into our wines. So here's the question. Do you decide, do you have to decide as a winery, as a winery in Bordeaux? And certainly region terroir specific is the part of this conversation, is the conversation.

37:57 Do you decide or do you have to decide? Like the opulent Napa over-extracted, I won't call any names out, that sort of set the bar for all wineries in Napa to sell stuff. And, you know, one of the number one wines in America right now is Austin Hope. Austin Hope was part of the Caymus family originally. It was, at least they were involved with it. And the wine has a Paso Robles inclination to it, but it's part of that oxygenated, heavy-duty, all-fruit wine. Mm-hmm. So do you have to decide as a winery, like, we are not gonna kowtow, another American term, to the trends of a region, or are we going to keep our head down and live by the expression of terroir so that we can educate the consumer? Yeah. Alors, the good thing is as well, we have a part of the industry who is following this new approach. The good thing is that when you talk with some sommeliers, some, of course, journalists as well, they really, really understand where we want to go. And we feel it into the ratings of our wines. For example, '15, '16 were beautiful vintage, but the ratings that we have into our wines is increasing drastically in the past 10 years. You're talking about the periodical ratings, the magazines, the publications? Yeah, like Decanter, Spectator, Wine Advocate, of course.

39:27 Like the '22 vintage is 100 Wine Advocate points. The '25 is on the line of that. We receive 100 still. So in the industry, we feel it. On the importer side, which I see, me, for my wine, is that when you talk with Northern Europe consumer, Denmark is a very, very precise market where they know what they drink. They really have a big knowledge about Bordeaux, Burgundy. And they told you, I really, really like the shift you did in Troplong Mondot wines because I'm drinking beautiful, expressive wines. Mm-hmm. And so we feel it. In UK, it's the same. UK is back for us. The market, Perhaps it's more difficult at the moment because the market is different, but UK end consumer, they really love the profile of the wine we are making today.

40:16 Okay, that's interesting. Yeah. They actually sense that. They can tell what's going on. Yeah, they're sensitive of that. When we do tours in the US as well, I'm going to New York and those people, those sommeliers, the buyers from some clubs, country clubs or stuff like that, they like the new approach we are doing. And they recognize the evolution. Because Troplong Mondot is a wine which is, I would say, famous. It's not Cheval Blanc or it's not Mouton, but we have these collectors who are following us for decades, and they appreciate what we are doing since nearly almost 10 years now.

40:57 So yeah, we feel it. And it's not only for the geek. No, it's interesting you're able to get that recognition by a consumer. Consumer, yeah. And you don't know how many that is. But those are, that are experiencing this, and the only way they can probably do this is that somebody puts the glass in front of them and says, look, taste this. Now, just sitting here with the 2011 Michel Rolland influence, clearly Old World Bordeaux, was without filtering, which is really interesting to me. But you spoke about the elegance. They both had elegance in their own way. Yeah, yeah. I'm not rejecting the previous style. No, I don't think so. Of course not. The previous style was really interesting and remains interesting. The only thing is that with the previous style, we had perhaps— we missed some consumers in their youth.

41:46 So it was not very digestible to drink an '11, '12, or '15, '16 vintage just 3, 4, 5 years after the vintage was released. But the good thing, and as I used to say for Troplong Mondot wines, Yes. For the previous approach, there is a drinking window which starts just 10 years after. So our '16 nowadays starts to show amazingly. The '16 is rich, but it's opulent. It's a wine which gives us great pleasure. I used to call it, like the '15, it's a really comfortable wine. It's a wine you want to pair with a beautiful, I don't know, steak. Yeah, we are in the US.

42:26 the country of the steakhouse. And definitely a '16 vintage Troplong Mondot, it's the perfect pairing for a profile of food like that, like '15. But those vintages, it was necessary to wait a bit. And that's why, yeah, these drinking vintages start to appear. And thanks to our acidity, because we mentioned that during the tasting, thanks to that, the— And And the blend we have makes a beautiful balance between the both terroirs we have and gave us, after those 10 years, round tannins, a beautiful acidity, which makes something really, really appreciable now. So at the end, it's good also to drink old-style Troplong Mondot. It's just fun and interesting to know. The reason I brought Michel Rolland, since you brought it up, is just an interesting quote that I use all the time from him to a young woman who was starting a winery in Armenia. And her uncle owns the winery, and he also owns an Argentinian winery.

43:33 But Michel Rolland came and said, yes, you can grow grapes here in this valley, but you won't know for 100 years. And I mean, it's so true, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then you're talking about some of these changes that you made just recently. And so, So that knowledge never— you're never gonna reach that knowledge because you're constantly changing the market, the way it works, and trying to make better wines. And so you really, we don't know for 100 years because it's gonna be different this year. Yeah. You're picking earlier this year. And so it's so dynamic. You can never— It's constant evolution. And, you know, what we are doing now, it's also not so far different from what we were doing in the early '90s, what Christine Valette was doing as well. There is just a period when between '04 '05, '06, '16, where the impact of the influence, not impact, which is, it was used to be a great influence of Robert Parker by doing wine which were very extracted, strong wine. That was his style. Heavy aging.

44:36 Those wines are, when they're well made, like Troplong Mondot, are beautiful to drink, appreciate. But the only thing is that you had to wait a bit more, like 10 years is a good beginning. But back to the '90s, if you drink— I'm coming back on the '85 Troplong Mondot. It's a crazy vintage, full of freshness, full of balance. But it was not made with such extraction, such new hogs. We were harvesting, of course, not so early than today, but at the end, we are a bit back of what we were doing in the past. I thought I had the conversation. Smoother extraction. I had a conversation yesterday with my— the collector, one of them, and I said, oh, I've got access to this. It was domestic wine, quintas.

45:26 And I said— he goes, I'm not going to be old enough. I'll be too old to even want to drink it by the time it's ready. I go, that's an interesting problem that you're collecting based on whether you're going to be able to enjoy it when it's right. Yeah. You know, one of the— we were talking a little bit about the regulations of the area of Saint-Émilion and how it's a dynamic change in what's going on. And part of the problem— not problem— part of the issues are that hospitality became a major part of proving that you're keeping up with what's going on in the marketplace. What happens in hospitality? We have a strong, definitely a strong approach on the hospitality because Except producing wine and making a tourism, we have, as I mentioned, a Michelin star restaurant. We have one Michelin star and one green Michelin star. Means that we are producing. I've never heard you said that earlier. Green Michelin star. Yeah, green.

46:24 Étoile verte. Étoile verte. Exactly. It means that you are producing your own vegetables. No day at Trois Le Mondeaux depending of the season, but we nearly reach 90% of the vegetables. That's amazing. Yeah. From our 2 gardens, we have one which is very close from the winery, and we have a second one which is far from— 2 kilometers far away. So I can assume if I go there that 90% of the vegetables, herbs— Of course, yes. And the last 10% will come from maraîchage, which is like 10, 20 kilometers far away from here, maximum. Maximum. That's amazing. Yeah. And the idea for us is to to really produce our own vegetables. The chief has his team of jardiniers who's taking care of these gardens. And he'd say, for example, this year, this summer, I really want to focus on a variety of tomatoes. I want to cook, and they will produce in consequence. Wow. It could be for zucchini or stuff like that. It will be like that.

47:26 And back to our activity. So we have this beautiful restaurant and we have a boutique hotel too, which is a very tiny boutique hotel. We have 6 rooms next to the château, and we have 2 small— we have a small house, we call it the House of the Vineyards, and where we have 2 rooms there. So it's a complete activity. I used to say, me, when I'm in Troplong Mondot nearly every day, except when I'm traveling, and I'm in a small village, because when you arrive, you're going to meet the chief, the cookers who are working there, you're going to have the winemaker and his teams, you're going to find the people working in the— The vineyard. in the boutique hotels, and us, we're working for the wines part. So it's a micro world, micro village for me, where you have so many different activities. I told you my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law are coming to Bordeaux, and they asked for recommendations.

48:19 And of course, and my mutual niece with my brother-in-law is a young girl who studies at Cornell, and she was given an internship at Château Bailly. So I said, you got to go by Bailly and Veronique will take care of you. I said, but you have to go to Saint-Émilion. Ah, yes. Even if it's for one night. Yeah. You have to go stay there and walk it, see all the wine shops, all the history, the restaurant, everything. It's just an incredible piece of history to be part of. But you said something, and we're almost— we're actually out of time, but I got to finish this thought. It just hit me, this parallel idea, the fact that you grow your own vegetables and herbs. Is that not unlike wine? Food, first of all, Americans have the worst diet in the world. We eat things. And one of the great respects I have for the French culture is this appellation for not only wine, but butter, cheese, and the MOF system, all that. Mm-hmm.

49:22 elevates. Of course, there's still parts of France where you can go get a hamburger, McDonald's. I have to tell you, 1989, I went to Paris and I couldn't believe that people were standing in line to eat a hamburger when 2 doors down was this amazing baguette with ham. Yeah. As you mentioned, the grass is always greener. Exactly. So you always want what you don't have. But I wonder if it's a never-ending Requirement on our part and the show's part and your part on the road to educate people on wine and the transformation of wine and the value of a good wine, the value of honest wine, not unlike the idea of proper food. And here you are with a restaurant that grows its own vegetables, which is so different than the stuff you buy from the vendors for the most part, and so different from the cuisine you would eat. Like, I'm going to have lunch today, but at my favorite diner. They don't use— Yeah, of course. Yeah. But when you taste that and you understand it— It's crazy. The appreciation— Yeah.

50:26 The taste— Never leaves. Yeah, of course. Of course. So, yeah, it's a parallel education process that we're in, is to teach people about food and wine. And of course, it's part of the experience you have at Troplong Mondot. If you have the opportunity to visit the wineries, taste the wine, and then go through the restaurant, The complete experience will be to also stay at the boutique hotel. It's a crazy moment, of course. And food and wines remain strongly linked. Yes. That's why perhaps you heard about that. The Michelin Guide did grapes like it's the star, but the grapes for wineries. It started with Burgundy. And last week there is a— I don't know how you call it. Wait, wait, run, run.

51:10 In English, back the trolley up. Michelin, Guide Michelin. The Guide Michelin is now making a guide around the winery. So it will deserve 1, 2, or 3 grapes. So, and the presentation this year was last week in Bordeaux. And so only focus for Bordeaux. It exists already for Burgundy. And so Troplong Mondot, we receive 2 grapes. Lafite receives, Lafite, Figeac, they receive 3. We receive 2. Carmeau-Brillon. So it's another profile of, I will say, it's not like ratings because they are not rating a vintage. They are more rating a stability, a consistency.

51:55 Wow. Interesting. Yeah. Well, many people will say another judgment, another thing that the Guide Michelin— no, I mean, for me, in my opinion, it's something that will bring some consumers who are not very involved in the wines, to let them understand that food is quite linked with the wines. And they also can consider visiting wineries by its ranking, 1, 2, or 3 grapes. I have great respect for Guy Michelin because when I travel, I know that the standardization of their ratings are standardized as they can come because it's internal. Everything's from the same grape.

52:40 As opposed to Yelp, Foursquare, and all these other things, which is some— who knows what this person's experienced in their life that they're rating it 5 stars or whatever it is. And you go there and you go, ugh. You know, in fact, one of the worst experiences I've ever had at a restaurant was one of these highly rated Yelp things. And so I respect the Guide Michelin because it does do that. At least there's a central focus on a level of quality that you would expect when you go to it. And now you're saying that there's a standardization for them for the grape quality. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily the wines, but the grape quality. No, no, no. The grapes is the name they give to the star. Oh, I see. Instead of star, right. Instead of star, it's grapes. But no, no, they will judge the consistency of the winery. I don't have the exact— I'm gonna look it up. Yeah, look, have a look on that. It's interesting.

53:26 It's completely new. It exists with Burgundy since, I don't know, perhaps since last year. Bordeaux is the second one, appellation region, which is judged by the Michelin Guide. So it's another, yeah, Yeah, for me, it could be an opportunity for those people who are not really linked with the wine industry. I can't believe this. We're already at— wow, we're going to be an hour here, pretty close. We could talk forever. Yeah, yeah. This is very fascinating. I'm going to do something really fun here. I only do it with French visitors. Okay. This is a book. This will close out this conversation. This is a book called Wine Is the Best Medicine.

54:07 Ah oui. And it's by Monsieur Dr. Médecin de Murry. Okay, a French one? Yeah, he was a French general practitioner, MD, also a holistic doctor. All the benefits of the wine, I guess, for health. So, he has a whole book on human maladies, human diseases, and the best wine to accommodate that. I love that. I'm not sure it's a cure, right? Because no matter what you drink, you'll feel better, right? So, all right, so I'm going to give you a malady. Yeah. And I'm gonna give you 3 choices. So, uh, just to put you at ease, um, usually 33% of the people get it right because the, the next question is kind of like the Master of Wine test. Why did you answer the question that way? Right. Okay. So, okay, so we're gonna go with, um, anemia, right? The blood disease anemia. Yeah.

55:00 You can either have a dry champagne, a Madoc red, Or a Graves. Well, Graves is Médoc. No, Graves is beside. So those are the choices for anemia. Anemia. And the reasons, then you have to answer why you would choose it. I would say Médoc. And why? Because it's a red champagne. I'm not sure. It will be the Médoc because of the Cabernet. A strong Cabernet will avoid perhaps your blood to fill. No, I do it.

55:44 Dr. Thomas said so. Because the Médoc is great as well. No, you're close. You're close because I— The Cabernet, the skin of the Cabernet, perhaps it's coming about the skin. It's talking about the Graves. Okay, but let's just say that's your Bordeaux on the Left Bank, so that's good. What would be your dosage? What would you recommend, doctor, for how much should I drink of this? For anemia? At least 3 glasses, one every meal, one for breakfast, one for lunch. You're a little light. It's 2 glasses a meal. 2 glasses, okay. Yeah, right. So a bottle a day. Yeah, about a bottle a day. Okay. So the reason it says he calls it out, and it's very close to what you're saying, anemia is a pathological disease in the number of red cells, manifests itself in a variety of disorders, among which are fatigue, vertigo, a lack of general tone, and sometimes hemorrhaging. It is therefore advisable, independent of other treatment proper to this type of disease, to give the patient supplementary amount of iron. Thus, a Graves' has higher iron content than the other wines I mentioned. The iron level in the wine can sometimes reach 10 milligrams per liter. Okay. Interesting.

56:54 So there you have it. So in case you're ever diagnosed with anemia— I will consider the Graves'. You'll have to leave the white bank. Such a pleasure and honor to have you here. Thank you very much. Thank you, Paul, for your time. My pleasure. I hope you have successful travels. You're headed back to Bordeaux tomorrow? No, I'm back to— I'm going to New York tonight. Oh, you are? Okay. I take the red-eye flight and then I will be back this weekend in Bordeaux and I go to Central Europe next week. Wow. So you see, you're on the road. Yeah. Another world. Slovakia. Nice. Slovakia? Yeah, yeah. We do a big event there It's not a considering small market for the population compared to the— Slovakia. Yeah. Just next to Austria, Bratislava. And yeah, small country, but a drinker of Bordeaux. You know, it seems the internet and all the technologies around have made the world a lot smaller. And the gentleman that's gonna do this show for us, to edit the show for us, is in Serbia. He's in Serbia. Serbia is a country. We are present there. We are making Mondeux in exclusivity there. Really? Yeah.

58:00 Europe is a region where all, a large part of the population is well with the wines. And even if many countries are producing their own wines, like I'm thinking about Austria, Germany, they're drinking also different appellation and region wines. So— Well, it sounds like you're doing your job. Yeah. Cheers. Thank you very much. My pleasure.