Why Wine Pairing Rules Are Made Up Tim Hanni Explains

0:00 We don't need to change the language of wine because there is no standardized language of wine. Trying to think there is a standardized language is going right back into that vertical vacuum. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. If you're just joining us, this is Wine Talks with Paul KF Master of Wine Tim Hanai on the show. And we're catching up on some of our, some of our conversations previously and of course, what's been going on on the web. So we'll just continue the thoughts as you're going, which is you were talking about the vertical versus the horizontal segmentation. And this is an interesting thought. And I, I kind of poo pooed it back when I first read somebody talk about this. And this is years and years ago, I think it was just a distributor or somebody has said, well, the wine industry is not doing it right because we should be going out and finding what the consumer wants and creating that brand versus we're going to toe the line here and we're going to make Shovel Blanc the way Shovel Blanc always is or whatever we're talking about. And we have to have the consumer come to us.

1:11 I'm assuming that's sort of what you're talking about. Yeah. And, and, you know, this, this harkens back for me roughly to 1990 and, you know, as the wine and food pairing guru of the time, according to Janice Robinson, and you know, having passed a Master of Wine exam and, and, and I knew in my heart of hearts something was, was really wrong. And, and I was guru. Well, that, what I was saying about why you have this dish with that line and all, all this stuff.

1:55 And, and I, I took it to a really, really extreme level and I was good at the shtick. But I knew in my heart, you know, I could have five wine experts, five chefs, and, and five consumers, and everybody try this magical pairing. And, and the experts don't, the chefs don't agree and the consumers don't agree. But that's an interesting thought, though. I mean, there's another movement that you've probably read about on LinkedIn as you and I hang out there, where, God, they're saying that probably most people in America, in the world, actually don't care about food pairing or don't know what you're talking about anyway, and so don't understand what that means to pair food, except that, you know, we should have food with wine. But other than that, what's the, it. Goes even deeper than that. The French didn't either they never did. That's a problem. You know, and so what we've done is we've, we've constructed this massive delusion, if you will, and, and it's now become Wine Education 101.

3:09 People in the industry, people in France can't even look back and get that. If you were in some region, you know, on the coast where fish was, you know, what you did, Normandy and things a la die plaz and whatever, because I'm, I am, I am a gastronomic nerd and trivialist. You had the wine that was local. You didn't go out and, and buy something else because you were having pork versus beef versus fish versus lamb.

3:49 And, and the wines were nothing like anything today. Yeah, right. So, so there's really no basis, you know. Oh, well, the, the, the, you know, lo. Locally grown goes with, with this by some magic. That's no truth to that either. And if, if you were at the table in France back in the 60s, so this isn't like really going back a huge amount of time. If, if, if you're serving the wine, then, and grandmama doesn't like it, put a little water and a sugar cube in it and add a splash of fruit, lur cassis or, or whatever. Not.

4:37 None of this was ever part of France. And, and, and so this started to occur for me. Right. You know, in conjunction with learning about critical thinking and passing the Master of Wine exam. And also what, what I hope we'll get into is the Neurod divergence. And, and I'm going, you know, wait a minute, we've got this wrong. So, so, and I can back this up all day and all night. I've got Larousse Gastronomique sitting in my bathroom. And, and it clearly states under the fairly large section of wine that when serving wine and food, it goes through certain protocols, but it clearly states, when we serve the finest dishes, bring out the Chateau Lafitte, bring out the Romanet, the Hermitage, or if the guests prefer Sauternes, white wines, whatever. So if you're serving the fine dish, sir, Fine wines, and serve red wine or white wine, dry wine or sweet wine. And this goes back actually centuries. And then they put in a wine and food pairing chart. And this is

6:07 the 1961 Crown edition of Larousse Gastronomic. And it shows before the meal, serve the port, serve the sherry and this and that with the hors d'. Oeuvre, serve Montrachet or Chateau Yquem, because Chateau Chem was never a dessert wine. We. That's a modern construct of the BS of the wine industry. And, and Sauterne is in crisis. And, and not because the wines aren't great, because our absolute asinine obsplemib view the sweet wine's bad wine, which we'll get into when we get into that horizontal, vertical kind of thing. So what we've done is we've create. Created this absolute mess. Global wine consumption is, you know what, whatever data you want to look at, but it's a catastrophe. And then we wonder why. My mom used to say, and my mom was a great cook and she had the books you're talking about. I've got even, I don't know, 61 edition of Escofier's book.

7:21 So she always said wine, food is chemistry. And so if you look at as pragmatic as food is chemistry, which I think people would agree that when you, you know, certain things go well together, certain things work and how you. In fermentation of bread. My daughter's a trained boulanger. That, that, that is chemistry. Are you saying that throw all, throw that idea at the. Out the window because really, food pairing. And I'm not gonna say it's, I'm not saying it's a hoax because I, I don't know, I don't, I don't subscribe to it. And I think the Internet's right in the sense that we intimidate people into thinking that you need to understand that in order to enjoy a glass of wine and enjoy a meal. And I don't agree with that. And that sometimes it is just hocus pocus and the chemistry doesn't really matter. So, so let's go back. Let's take it one step at your. At a time because it becomes very complex. An awful lot of people kind of hear about what I do or take a.

8:20 A sound bite or whatever, hate my guts and I'm. I'm the devil. We were talking about over intellectualization, right? Yes. So what happened here's over an old. Over intellectualization. And, and it is chemistry. We're chemistry. That's a very good point. This pen is chemistry. Yes. So what happens is we, we glom onto metaphors and heuristics, all right, which are neurological ways to deal with. The. Complexity of the universe and kind of break it down into simple terms.

9:09 So I'm going to get to. Yes, wine and food is chem chemistry, but not in the heuristic or metaphorical sense that we think. Just like when people think, oh, it grows together, it goes together. I was going to say that. What the, what the hell? Yeah, and, and so if, if, if we take. Well, and, and this is a problem with, with, with talking with me. I'm, I want to talk really quickly about the difference of horizontal segmentation versus vertical segmentation. Let's do it.

9:52 It's, it's really important in, in explaining all this. It, it. And, and I finally got data to clarify all this in my crazy mind. Vertical segmentation is where you take a product in the product attributes and that experts agree this is what the product should be like. This is what those who are in the know know what the product should be. And then there's all sorts of arguments within that. How do you evaluate it? How do you rate it? What's terrible? All that, all that, all that BS is happening in a, in a vertical conversation.

10:41 And, and what it requires is then, okay, oh, you want to learn about wine? This is what you got to learn about. Including all these unreserved, unresolved arguments. All this bs, all you've got to learn about it to appreciate it. I evaluate it this way. No, you're stupid. I use points. No, you're stupid. I use descriptive metaphors. I'm better than you are. And it's, it's all happening in this vacuum of a vertical integration. And, and if you don't get it, you're too stupid to use the product. Okay, that's very well said. Despite the. Yay.

11:24 Thank God. It's the first time in my life I've been able to actually have somebody say that about. Honest to God, I swear to God, I got it. Maybe. So, so, and to top all of this off, and this is something going on at a really, really high level with my mentors and researchers and scientists around the world. Wine relies on sensory science to understand the phenomenon, right? Sensory panels and sensory scientists and so forth. Well, in the vertical model, sensory science is the back ass words way to look at things. It's hugely important and it's complex and there's all these wonderful, wonderful sensory scientists, but it's the scientific process within this vertical vacuum, if you will. So I've been struggling literally for decades how to explain all of this and whatever. And during COVID I ran into research and data that I'm always looking at more

12:56 from a focus of what's called perceptual science. And the difference being sensory science is the product up. All right, we're going to analyze the product, we're going to talk about the sensations and so forth. And again, extremely important. But it's really the perception that's the important thing. Sensory scientists know that they can put together this panel of experts and consumers and chefs and whatever, and say, I want. Want you to evaluate the acidity of this wine, okay. And rate it on a heuristic scale. Some people in all of these groups are going, oh, that's very pleasant. I like that.

13:51 Some others are saying, oh, it's way too sour. Some are going in their head and saying, oh, I see how the racing acidity pairs with the food and washes your palate, whatever. And you get a shit show. At the end of the day, you have no usable data. Racing acidity. And then you give them something sweet. Oh, this is yucky. Overly sweet for beginners and, and other people. Consumers are going, oh, I like this. And, and. And whatever. So sensory science in, in certain evaluations and, you know, when in use at a, At a winery for doing your blends and whatever, absolutely incredible work done. But it's the bot. It's in the vacuum, the horizontal model. And, and this is a guy, Henry Moritz. What's. What's his name? Howard. Howard Mos. Actually Moskowitz, uh, in. Invented something called mind genomics. And he's the one that created this whole thing of horizontal versus whatever. And he did it with rep. The first application was Ragu spaghetti

15:24 sauce. And he said, rather than us sitting around in our vacuum defining what consumers should like and having to tell them they should like it because it's authentic and it's Mama's recipe and, and all this stuff, why don't we look at consumers from the top down and ask them and learn about them and what their preferences, their expectations and so forth, and we can make innumerable market segments and then have products differentiated for the market.

16:08 Well, I think. Do you think that applies then? I mean, do you think a bottle of pasta sauce that Mama made. Hang on, I. I think I'll state it here for the first time. I think this will completely change forever how wine is looked at and marketed, that it will allow us to look at millennials. Not like they all want one thing. There are millennials who want authenticity in this. There are millennials who want gamification, and in technology, there are millennials who want natural or organic or sustainable.

16:53 We just don't know how to differentiate it. So let me stop for a second. I had. Maybe it was Felicity Carter. I can't remember who I was speaking with, but she said, Somebody said. And we've tried to talk to the whiners about this and try to talk to the industry about this. And I hate it when I hear, you know, Gen Z are saying the industry needs to change because they don't. They have been in the industry long enough to know what needs to change. But the idea that, that the traditional, let's just say the Bordel, the Burgundians, the, the Kean folks just ignore this stuff, Is that accurate? It doesn't matter to me. I don't care. This is another thing I was telling my wife.

17:42 I wish I had come across this, this clarity in what I'm trying to accomplish before I was at the age of physical decomposition, but I honestly don't care. And here's the other thing. Here's the other thing, Paul. This is so important for the people who have a formula, who have their wines sold out on allocation, who don't have to discount it, who don't they've got their distribution. They. There's nothing to change. Yeah, that's true. So, so there will always be that vertical thinking.

18:30 And I honestly don't give a rat's ass if anyone or anyone changes anything. They do. If the wine industry really wants to survive and prosper and thrive and be healthy, the model has to change and it has to change quickly. And so this. I'm, I'm. Are you familiar with the Monell Chemical Census center in Philadelphia? No. It's the largest and most prestigious organization in the world focused on the science of chemosensory perception, which is validating your mom.

19:24 Chemosensory is how molecules are. Act as stimuli. The, the pathways, the neural way that they create the neurotransmitters that go throughout our brain to get processed, turned into meaning and so on and so forth and then into perception. I've been working with them for 35 years and the work they do is just mind blowing. So that's interesting. Let me ask this. Why now? Why do you think?

20:05 Based on what I just said about, you know, the traditionalists not wanting to change because we've been doing this for six. But why not? What's the confluence in the industry, a confluence in the consumers that has told you it's if we don't change, we're toast. Well, and thank you. That's actually a perfect, perfect question. So here's the confluence. I think it's fair to say that there's never been a more incredible diversity of product, of wine, of styles, of flavors, of price points. How about that? And, and diversity of where it's successfully grown and, you know, from New Jersey to, to China. To, you know, places no one ever associated with wine. Right, Good point. I've been trying to some somehow distill my crazy thinking into something understandable and actionable. I've done work in China for almost 35 years and I watched the explosion of growth. And I was, I've been to wine regions where I, I've been where

21:37 ice wine is made and you can look across the Yalu river to the northern border of North Korea and the value that. That brought to. In prosperity to an area that was absolutely devastated by, by change and whatever. All of a sudden it's fire, it's got wine tourism, it's got a product in pride. And this is happening all around the world. But I also know through a lot of research that I tap into and go into the Chinese population is not genetically predisposed to drink red wine. There are bitter sensitivities and so on and so forth.

22:32 So there was before President Xi, the president declared, we're going to become a nation of red wine drinkers. Red is heart healthy. Red is metaphorically important. And due to a number of things that happened in confluence with this. And the reason they were doing this was to divert grain and, and, and, you know, rice and, and barley and other things back into the food chain from beer production. Because they were a nation of beer drinkers primarily and that. And they're, you know, maotai and things like that. So they, that was the strategy.

23:15 Well, sorry. That was the mission in the strategy. Let's become red wine drinkers. Well, they don't like red wine. It doesn't matter if it goes with their food or not, because that's stupid. You get this huge thing with, with so many diverse foods. How do you do wine and food pairing? Which is, by the way, how French cuisine used to be. But it's another story. How did they put. I guess that's why they put, you know, there was whole stories early on. They were putting Coca Cola in there, right? No, they weren't. Where the Coca Cola's being put in the wine, it saved the Basque wine industry. It's called Calamocho. They've got a statue to the guy who popularized the most popular drink, especially with young people in the Basque regions of France and Spain, is 50 red wine and 50 Coca Cola. I've never heard that. And I have.

24:06 Well, look, yeah, K A L I M O T X A calumoto. Oh, the Chinese did not do that because all that was all they may. Or may not have. They did it with, with, with cognac. Because you know, cognac had. China saved the cognac industry and, and they were willing to spend for it, but it tasted like crap. So they, and literally you go into a banquet even in the US to a really, really traditional in LA or, or, or San Francisco and look how they set up for a true prestigious Chinese banquet. And you will see usually 2 liter bottles of Sprite 7 up in Coca Cola and that's there expressly to be blended with cognac. Well, but here the fresh used to do that. We don't have any clue what the French used to do. That's true.

25:12 This is know we make these faces and whatever in our vertical vacuum and we don't know the history and we don't know that, that the, the most popular drink in Spain was sangria. Yeah. Not freaking Tao. It wasn't tempranillo, it was sangria. I, I can see this. Sorry to interrupt you. I can see this in your vertical description of you know, the industry. And so that, yeah, you keep banging against the walls of this vertical cylinder. Oh my God. I can get that. So you were talking about neurodivergence. Not sure where that plays into this. Yeah, horizontal part of it.

25:58 Somebody sent me a video of a, of this hysterical standup routine and, and I'm going to frame this with all of a sudden it's like there's a coming out party for neurodivergent people and it's just my, it, it just. I want to be invited to the party. Well, you're, you'll be seeing more and more of us and hearing more promos. So somebody sent me a video and it's an autistic lesbian stand up comedian. Really.

26:47 And she's talking. When I was in Australia, I think when I was in second grade, our teacher said, children, we're going to learn about prepositions. And the proposition shows a relationship of two things to each other. Like Johnny is near the box. What's the preposition? And she holds up her hand, she goes, I have questions. Why is Johnny near the box? And it keeps going on. I've got questions.

27:28 What's in the box? Neurodivergence. I like it. The teacher's trying to explain it to her and get more frustrated. The kids are laughing their ass off. And, and then she said, I finally noticed everyone was laughing. She said, I like that. I have to, I don't see that because my daughter's a, you know, master's in child counseling. That would be really for her. So, so, so here you go. First time on tape. I am America's first openly neurodivergent, ADHD dyslexic, recovering alcoholic, Master of wine.

28:14 My brain doesn't work the same way, and that's actually how I pass a Master of Wine examination. That's because I can look at things from so many different perspectives. The hard part was getting it all into any kind of cohesive essay, you know, for the examination. So this applies to the wine trade. I mean, I can see how your perspectives, and that's why I put you back on the show, because I wanted to hear them. But I can see in this industry an alternative or neurodivergent viewpoint of what's going on to make the changes you're talking about need to be changed. Yeah. And. And so the research I'm doing from Perceptual Sciences is to understand you, your mom, everybody has created their perception, literally, of the universe based on individual genetics, which determine. This is one of the big reasons the sensory scientists have such a hard time.

29:24 You may have certain taste buds I don't have. I was just on a BBC BBC World Global thing with one of the. With the chief scientists from a Manell Chemical census Center, and. And she was actually doing the. The genetic portion identical to what I do because they'd been my mentors for 35 years. And she says, you know, somebody, you know, smells a wine and says, oh, I get raspberry this. And she says, and it's a result of this molecule. That's what they do at motel. And she says, and I don't have that receptor. You can talk till you're blue in the face about your raspberries, your this or that or. And you can argue about your point systems and whatever, but genetically, that is our grounding for everything we experience. Light, sound, everything else. That information has to go through neural pathways that can be conditioned over time.

30:26 So neurotransmitters are what make us feel happy or sad or give us energy or depression and pain and all this kind of stuff. And then the brain has to process all of that. And the brain is subject to something called neuroplasticity, which is learning, and it's repair of the brain from damage and all this kind of stuff. So literally, when you learn something, a new language or whatever, you've re. You've physically rewired your brain, and then there's psychology. And so your mom said, all right, Paul, we're going to have spaghetti tonight. But you can't have any because you did this. And now you associate spaghetti with being punished with your mom while somebody else is not doing that. But that's you. So my new book, the perception project that we. This is. This is now the whole formula for how it's being written. And so from a perceptual standpoint, we're. We're able to look at a person and say, oh, you know, I. Are you smelling this?

31:44 No, it's interesting. You. You know, I don't even get that. And we know this is out there. We science. Every day you have those conversations. I always wondered if it was because they smelled it and didn't know how to describe it or they just didn't smell it. And it sounds. Well, we don't know how to. We. This. Descriptions are made up. Yeah. Descriptions are a fantasy and we've just got to get that. And there's. There's an incredible neurological study done in the University of Bordeaux about languaging. I won't even get into that. But here's what it looks like. Paul. Now if. If we're open enough to do that, Here's a glass of wine. Do you like that? No, it's too sweet. Okay, great. Let me. Let's try. Try this. Not. Well, not. Not.

32:33 Let me. Let me finish. Sort of. And. And. Well. Oh, I. I smell this in the raspberries. Oh, great. I don't. But like. Or minerality. I. I don't care what. What. I want to find you the wine you're going to love. Well, what food should I have? What food do you love? Well, aren't I supposed to prepare wine and food? I said, you know, that's all made up. If, if you'd like, I can give you. Oh, I could give you classical pairings that aren't really. Or I can give you the. Goes together, grows together. Or I can introduce you to flavor modulation. And that is that. This goes back to your mom. The chemistry that certain things in combination, depending on your genetics and your. In your brain plasticity will modulate, meaning go either go up or go down. The easiest example of this. Brush teeth drink orange juice. Yeah, that's one of the old school ones. So that's. And that's actually defined by a perceptual phenomenon called flavor modulation. And it's easy to explain. Oh, is. Is this state going to be good with my red wine? Well, how much. What do you like the balance of the wine? It's. It's a little strong for me, a little bitter. Oh, so don't have this steak because it's got a sweet teriyaki glaze or some

34:06 cockamamie shit. And that's going to be like, brush your teeth, drink orange juice. This steak has a maitre d' hotel butter, which has lemon juice in it. And by the way, in Tuscany, they'd always serve lemons with their bisteca all Fiorentina. It's not the steak. The steak actually is opposite of what the experts tell you it really is. It's the salt you put on it and a little squeeze of lemon, and that'll have a modulation. It'll make the wine smoother. You know, I don't like red wine. You love Moscato. I love Moscato. Historically, if you had steak in Italy and somebody wanted Moscato, nobody would bat an eye.

34:47 It's delicious. You know, you had two things in there that I'm going to dumb down a little bit just for the listeners to the scent of. You know how it applies, like, Daily One is, you know, my wife, you know, she's come a long way in the wine consumption since we got married. She used to drink Gallo Chablis, but. But I know what she drinks, and I don't bother trying to get her to drink anything else. So she won't drink Syrah. She's able to. She's able to grab Syrah out of the. Out of the air. She knows when she puts her nose to the glass, she's not going to like it. It's always Sarah. I can never stump her. I don't care if I give her a roan or Central Valley, it doesn't matter. She catches me. And so I got tired of trying. It's. I know what she likes to drink, and I stay in that range. The other thing that you said that I think is really important for people to hear because you hear this all the time. And I've had many people say on the show, we need to change the language of wine. What do you mean, change the language of wine? If you tell me today that as you were saying, and your. Your philosophy is right on your theory in that if I don't smell those raspberries, there's a couple reasons why. One is I don't have the ability to smell them because my receptors don't do it, or I just don't understand what you're telling me to try and smell. So if you change that to Captain Crunch or Fruit Loops, which is what some of these gen zers and millennials want to do, like you need to change, we make it more, more accessible. Well, I don't know what you mean if you tell me it smells like. Fruit Loops, Let me jump in because I think we're probably going to run out of time before this. Yes.

36:18 We don't need to change the language of wine because there is no standardized language of wine Again. So trying to think there's a standardized language is going right back into that vertical vacuum. You're right. You're. We're right back in it. And to say, you know, my wife's come a long way because she used to drink that, that's actually a pretty unfortunate judgment of the people who still drink it. Seriously. Good point. I suppose we don't.

36:58 The long and short of it, we don't even think before we speak. Or, or, or look, and that's interesting point. The neurodivergent mind is not focus. The reason I ADHD happens my. In neuroscience can show my brain's firing off all over the place. And so I look at things that, that, that, that other people don't look at going together. And this is not necessarily a benefit. This has been a curse for my entire life. And for the first time, I'm beginning to understand why. In grade school, I was in the corner. I was the class clown, and I was a. My report cards went to. Went from little Timmy needs to settle down a little bit to this son of a bitch is going to be incarcerated if you don't figure out what the hell to do with them. Seriously.

38:01 And there's millions like me. And so when this comedienne starts, starts going and she discovered she. These are legitimate questions she had. And it ended up with this whole different. Trying to explain prepositions a different way. And everybody's laughing. She's enjoying the laughter. And she goes. And I found everybody laughing. And I like that. Oh, no, let's, let's spend the last few minutes on this, this, this coming out of the neurodivergence thing. Like when you say that there's a. I don't say renaissance of it, but an understanding of it. Is that what you mean? Well, there's an understanding and that's been growing for, for decades.

38:52 My son, who's an electrical engineer, you know, at a major, major company, his, his first year of school was absolute hell. He didn't want to go to school. You couldn't make him. He's absolutely brilliant. And we, we were very, very, very diligent about his ADHD diagnosis, what kind of ADHD and medication. And that wasn't available to me ever. All right, so even more so, the, the coming out of Neurodivergence is just the ability to say, hey, I'm a dyslexic ADHD nut case and I'm of, of a lot of value in some cases.

39:42 Well, that's, that's interesting to be discovering wine. And here's the craziest of it all, Paul. I'm writing my book in this fashion of 35 years of 65 years, 60 years of passion and understanding of gastronomy and wine and wine culture, becoming a master of wine and so on and so forth. I have discovered. And my new book is being written to take all my concepts and really carefully use AI because AI, if artificial intelligence with the right inputs is, is just amazing. Everything has to be fact checked. And then I post it on Facebook to see if I've actually gotten it in a way that people go, oh, I get that like you just did. That is a result of me taking these random thoughts, putting them into AI, putting, then carefully editing that to, to make sure it's what I want, putting it AI. Oh, I've got to change this because people are getting stuck there or they don't understand this. And that was. Right. That was never available to anyone before. And it's a new phenomenon. So when do you expect the releases book. By the end of the year. And things are, things are just going quickly because what I'm doing now is I'm writing, I do.

41:14 I just rewrote the introduction. It's the introduction of the books available on LinkedIn and. Oh, cool. And I've got it edited and I've got feedback, I've clarified it because people say well. And then all of a sudden somebody mentioned Howard Moskowitz again. I went oh geez, I forgot about Howard. And then I reframed the whole goddamn thing and it's now in my manuscript. We're going to leave it at that today we're going to do this again. I'm in big trouble if I don't get back to my 7 year old, my 5 year old granddaughter's birthday party. Please do. Yeah. Yes, my back was against the wall. But I do want to have you send me the link to that comedian if you can find it. I will. You know what?

42:02 Yeah, let me do. I'm doing that for actually because I just met a neurodivergent chief marketing officer and head of product development for what's the Japanese scotch company? What's that? Suntory. And she just did a whole post about her neurodivergence. And so I contacted her, I said, but I said I had AI post this about why we should meet.

42:42 And it's a tim hat. I does this, this and this. And you guys should get together because of this. And I said that you got back to me in an hour. We're speaking next week. That's so fun. They own Chateau La Gaffier, I think, also. Oh, you know, I think they're out of the wine business now. Oh, they sell it, maybe. Yeah. Them and how in the. And that's what's happening around the world. People are bailing online. It's just. Yeah. So, anyways, well, thank Thanksgiving. Really great. Great talking with you. Thanks for putting up with my insanity. No, we're going to do it again. We have to stay in touch because I just, it's, it's a fascinating part of the perception of the trade and I think we need to, we need to discuss it, continue it. Oh, it's. I, I, I'll tell. I, I honestly think in my waning years of life, my life work. In my wife's life. Yeah. Again.

43:33 Yeah. I think, I think I might have it. Cheers. Thank you. All the best, buddy.