Why Most Master Sommeliers Are Still Broke: Doug Frost Exposes Industry Secrets

0:00 nobody in their right mind should ever presume they're going to get rich in the wine business because certainly, yeah, certainly as I told my business partner in the winery, it's like the only way you make a small fortune in the wine business is by beginning with a large one. You know, you know, you know the saying. And, and so you do it because you love it. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation with Doug Frost. subject introductions, easy for you to say, in just a moment. Hey, have a listen to Daniel Isis. Actually, it's Isis— actually, it's backwards. Isis Daniel. And so she comments on having a name like Isis through her adolescence, but Isis Daniel, she is the Millennial Somm. She's on her way to Paris to study for the WSET diploma accolade. And she is fascinating conversation, particularly when it comes to the subjects of women in wine and BIPOC or people of color in our industry, which is a big subject. So have a listen to that. But not why we're here today.

1:06 We are here to have a conversation with, I don't know, one of 4 people in the country, Doug. Actually, you know, what's kind of sad is there were 4 of us, but the person who passed after me, in other words, the 3rd person, a wonderful guy named Gerard Bassay, he passed away a few years ago. So now there's just 3 of us in the world. one guy in Florida, me in Kansas City, you know where that happens, and then one guy in Hungary, for God's sakes. And I'm referring to, for the listeners, people that have a Master of Wine, which is an extraordinarily difficult credential or diploma out of London, and a Master Sommelier, which is from the Court of Sommeliers. This is, these are 2 of the highest accolades in our industry, and to have both, It's kind of nuts, really. So what, which one did you get first? Well, I finished the MS first, but I actually was taking them both at the same time, which was not the plan. I didn't have a plan, you know?

2:10 I mean, of course, yeah, I live in Kansas City. I didn't have a plan. I was like, ooh, this is cool. We're drinking and reading my 2 favorite things, you know? And so I basically took them both at the same time. I finished the MS in '91, and I finished the MW in '93. So you said something interesting just then. You said around Kansas City, you know, it's not exactly the hotbed of wine in the country, but, you know, it's probably growing now, but, you know, it's about barbecues there. And were you an academic kid? Yeah, I think I was, even though I didn't do anything other than get a bachelor's. But yeah, I always really, really dug academia, so it was easy for me and fun for me to stick my head in a book. I remember when I was done with both of the programs, I still couldn't stop studying. It was like, no, this is, you know, this is manna to me. This is what I like. So yeah, yeah, I think I was, you know, a geek, always a geeky kid. Because, you know, my mother would be— my mother passed away a few years ago, but she would be completely flabbergasted that I have my head in a book these days and that I now am pursuing knowledge of this industry and parts of it. But it's more of a curiosity around the historical aspects of the different regions to understand, you know, why we're here at the day we are with the wines that are there. And it's just sort of an interesting thing. So it's really like history. And is that certainly raises the appreciation of what you have in the

3:41 glass, is it not? Oh, absolutely. I think for me, I certainly have always enjoyed and must admit that I got into the MS and the MW programs because I wanted to teach more and I wanted to write more. And in, in teaching or writing, either one, you know, the whole idea is give somebody context. So it's not, this exists, therefore it's great. You know, that, that's of no use to anybody. Right. It's, this exists because of these other things. And if you like this, maybe these other things will, will intrigue you as well. You know, it's creating context helps us understand why things are the way they are and maybe, maybe figure out where they're gonna go next. That's, uh, we're gonna talk about that because I'm not sure we, that one's a tougher one, but You know, the Master Sommelier, since it was 1991, and I had Emmanuel Camigie in here, he's a really good friend of mine. Yeah. Man is great. I think he passed it in '96, but one of the comments he made a couple of times was, you know, there was less to learn then. And we, you know, South America was sort of happening and there's, it wasn't, you know, certainly had to learn Burgundy, Bordeaux, and Spain and Roberto Duero, et cetera. But has it changed for you?

4:57 Have you seen this radical change in the volume of information needed to do this? Yeah, absolutely. There's no question about that. Manny's right. And, you know, the breadth of information that you're supposed to have command of now is far greater, really. On the other hand, I would certainly say that because there's such breadth, Now that the depth of knowledge that you had to have about the classic regions was, you know, it was unforgivable if you didn't have that. Whereas today, okay, maybe you don't have every single Premier Cru off the top of your head, you're probably gonna get through the exam anyway if you know most of them or can recognize them. But on the other hand, if you have zero information about Australia or whatever, then, then you're probably going to be in trouble. I still remember, I have to say, you know, that the Master Sommelier exam, it's a, it's a verbal exam. And, you know, my final, uh, exam, I'm, I'm going through the questions and you, you're not really counting the questions off, but you can kind of tell when you're getting near the end of the questions. And I remember thinking, we haven't even gotten to a question about Australia yet. Wow. And, uh, you know, I thought that was really weird because I'd studied my ass off on Australia, right? You know, and so I can tell it's one of the last questions when the question is name one winery in 3 different states in Australia.

6:22 And I looked at the examiners because I thought I was about to say, yeah, I got it. You know, this is all you're going to ask me? FU in the state of FU, FU in the state of FU. You know, I was like, are you kidding me? This is it? And that was it. That was the only Australian. That was the only question. I was ready for soil types. I was ready for, you know, clones. I was ready for everything. But that's the nature of the MS, uh, uh, question is it's very randomized and you don't really know what's coming at you. And some of the questions are going to kick your butt. And some of the questions are going to be like, you got to be kidding me. Seriously? That's all you want? So that's the way it works. Your fellow Master SoMs would be very disappointed in that since they now have embarked on, uh, you know, a, an Australian import business. I made a note to talk about that. in a minute because it's so different than it was when I was, when things were around.

7:13 Yeah. In fact, the question I asked them, I said, would it surprise you if I told you in 1998 or something around there, maybe a little earlier, that I split a full container, 40-foot container of wine with Trader Joe's, and it was 375s of a late harvest Sémillon from Penfolds? Would that surprise you? They're like, yeah, hell yeah, that would surprise us. Who does that? But, you know, both of us sold it all. But anyway, so the Master Sommelier, and I remember at least the conversations I've had with Manny and a couple others, the Master Sommelier is a little larger net when it comes to beverages, service, hospitality, and the rest of what we do in this industry. Is that accurate? Yeah, I think so. I often kind of joke with people that when they're trying to figure out what's the difference between the Master Sommelier and the Master of Wine? I'm like, well, you know, the Master Sommelier is a billion miles wide, but only about 5 inches deep. And the Master of Wine is really, you know, not that wide, but a billion miles deep. So you really have to know more about each of the subjects in the MW.

8:19 But I certainly remember a friend of mine who passed the MW the same time I did, Pieter Koff, a South African Master of Wine who said, Doug, I am now a Master of Wine? That's right. And I don't know the single vineyard names of Valtellina Superiore, and I don't give a damn if I ever know them. It's like, yeah, you're right. You know, you couldn't pass the MS without that stuff, but the MW, you don't have, you don't need to know that, but you do need to know, you know, vine diseases and how you're supposed to treat them and, you know, yada, yada, yada. He's a very good friend. Peter's great people. He's very good friend, but he'll also tell you, that he was sort of walked into it. You know, they, he says, I don't think I even took the test because I just, because I was a South African expert and I had earned that credential down there that, and I think it was 1991 or '93, right? You said, you said, yeah. Yeah. He passed in '93 with me. Yeah. Yeah. He sort of sounded like, I'm not even sure, you know, what happened, but it did sound like that's the case. He was, he was well prepared, but he was a Cape Master, which is a different program, not to the same degree of the MW, but it's an exacting program. So he had gone through that and, and, you know, we both had to— it took both of us a couple of tries to get through there. So, you know, it's like, you know, it's interesting. He's been doing— he used to— he had Ferris Cable, you know, wholesale house. And yes, we did a lot of business together in the early days. I don't think he's

9:51 doing much of it now, but, and he actually ended up getting Italian wines. I think one of the wines he was going to buy was a Montalcino, a Montepulciano. Anyway, he now is doing some video series with Pat Farrell. Oh, really? Cool. And an Asian group. And so I look, I see them, they sit around a room outside and they taste wine and they talk about it. And But I can't read the post because they're all in Chinese. That's, that's rough. Yeah. He, he always asked, he was always leaning on me, so to speak, to help him understand the DTC world, which I don't, I never understood it. It was 35 years worth. So he was trying to leverage away, and I think, I think this Chinese group that he hooked up with, has helped that regard for him.

10:46 But I don't think he's bringing— I don't think he's wholesaling much anymore. I honestly don't know. And I haven't seen Peter in a good year and a half or so, and I haven't seen Pat Farrell in probably, you know, pre-pandemic, the good doctor, you know, Farrell. Yeah, it's disappointing because we don't get together the way we used to back in the early days. All the MWs would get together once a year for The, basically what are called the seminars, the residential seminars. And we'd see everybody and we'd party like lords and have a great time and teach. And that just doesn't happen anymore. He and I were doing business together. We were attempting to, he actually had a product that I thought was really effective. It was called the Bev Wizard. Did you remember this? Oh, I remember the Bev Wizard. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

11:35 Opposing magnets in this spout. And it, it worked as long as there was tannic acid or at least acid from barrel fermentation or whatever barrels are providing. It would smooth it out. And I took this thing to the local bar here and it was, they poured Barton's, you know, crap scotch, this place. Yeah. And I blinded all 3 bartenders with a a pour through the spout and one without it. And hands down, through the spout was smoother and easier. You actually turned a well whiskey into something palatable. And then I took it down to Laguna Beach because my wife's uncle was the inventor of the spoon straw and the Flexi Straw. Sure. Yeah. He's passed since, but he was an MIT master's in mechanical engineering. Brilliant guy.

12:29 And I said, I've got this product. And I was trying to work with Patrick on marketing it and buying into it. I wanted to buy into it. And I'll tell you why it didn't happen. But so I go down to Laguna Beach and I take Art and we're sitting at the bar and I, there's a patron across the way. I go, hey, you want to taste some Jack Daniel's? They're like, yeah, sure. I go, come over. I did that 4 times in 4 different bars. Every one of them chose what it was poured through Patrick's product. over the stock. And Patrick said, I can't tell you why it does this. He says it would cost me $100 grand to get it tested, so I don't bother. And the reason I didn't buy into it is because the patent wasn't around the process. It was around the device itself, which was really ugly. Yeah. And it came out about when the Venturi came out and the Venturi's a sleek, Glossy box. Yeah.

13:25 It's very fancy looking. Yeah. It looks like a Lucite. Anyway. Yeah. So let's move to the Master of Wine. More academic, London-based. I don't, I forgot how old it is. I know Michael Broadbent, my good friend Bartholomew, his father was one. Yes. Yeah. What motivated that simultaneous with the Master Sommelier? The truth is, is I didn't even know what the Master Sommelier exam was when I was involved in the MW. And then I, Then I became the, the, uh, general sales manager for a statewide company, wholesale company in, in Missouri, and walked away from the MW. And then it disappeared from the US, and then it came back. And, and so Joel Butler and, um, Tim Hanai passed, and, you know, that shows up in The Spectator. I'm like, hey, I got my job, you know, back, uh, under control. I, I'm, I'm gonna do this again. So I reach out, I, I, uh, take the first exam. And it's actually a funny story because it was in the tasting exam was in San Francisco, and all I had to do was write this essay and they said, yeah, okay, you're allowed into the program. You're now going to come to San Francisco for a tasting exam. And I thought, I just wrote this essay.

14:35 Can't, what are there's going to be a couple hundred people taking this tasting exam, right? So I go to this hotel where the tasting exam is, and I'm looking for a big ballroom where everybody's at. I can't find it. And then I find this little tiny, you know, conference room and I look at it and there's a waiter standing there. I said, is this where the Master of Wine tasting exam is? And he said, yeah, the wines are right under that table if you want to look at them. And what I can tell you is we have proof that I did not look. Those are the results of my exams. That's really funny. But I did not look. What an honorable guy. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, so, so I take that exam, I blow the tasting exam, and they say, well, we're going to start this thing called the residential seminar in 6 months. You should come out to California and you can do that. And then if you pass that, then you can take the final exam. And so I planned to do that. And then out of the clear blue, like a month later, a friend of mine says, hey, come up to Chicago. You can take this Master Sommelier exam. I'm like, what's that? You know? And he's like, well, it's in 2 weeks. And it wasn't the Master Sommelier exam, it was the advanced exam. Yeah.

15:44 And I said, well, that sounds like a good warmup. You know, I had no idea what I was in. That's so funny. I passed, but I'm sure I passed by the skin of my teeth. And at that point they were like, hey dude, you should take the master's in 6 months. I'm like, I, I just discovered this goddamn thing. I, I don't know what I'm doing. That is hilarious. No, you're actually better, you know, better off than you think you are. Come along. And, and, and, and so I just sort of fell into both of 'em, but I really felt like with the Master Sommelier, The same with the MW, but the, the MS, I kind of looked around the room and went, these are my people. I've been in the restaurant business since I was 14 years old washing dishes. Yeah. These are my people. I want to be part of this group. That's fascinating. Yeah, it was weird. That's really fascinating.

16:27 And, and that, you know, they just showed up and then now had you, had you looked at the bottles and you answered the question in San Francisco and you said, yeah, this is a Cabernet. It's from, uh, it's from Oak Knoll. It's a 2000 and whatever vintage was going on then. It's, it's gonna be exported by this brand. It's got this much alcohol. And then you read off everything that's on the back label that it probably would've— Would've been a disaster the next go-round. Yeah. That's a little of a problem there. So I don't, do I see the diploma, WSET diploma on your horizon? No, no. I, I, you know, the, the WSET used to be a requisite for the MW. Yeah. Well, it actually still is. I'd have to say most everybody who does the MW has to do WSET first. So it, and I really do tell people that it's like, dude, if you're going to try to carve out the MW, you better do WSET first. It's a fantastic way to get ready.

17:21 Let's go, let's go to the motivation of all this. Besides, you know, you didn't know, you sort of, sort of serendipitous approach to the SOM test, but the Master of Wine was thought through. But, you know, back in those days you got a Master of SOM, you had a 6-digit job in Vegas, you know, curating some giant restaurants list. Um, was this academic? Was it career boosting for you to try? Is that what you're looking for? Was it a lifestyle that maybe you thought you're gonna acquire by getting these degrees? I mean, what— it's not just— you don't just take tests like that for fun. I mean, come on. Yeah, no, I hear you. It was early days though, and I was the second person. Ron Wiegand, um, finished before me, 2 years before me. So I was the second person to get both.

18:09 And honestly, nobody even knew what they were then. You know, it was still pretty early days. So I half-jokingly tell people when they say, oh, did you get a lot of job offers? I'm like, actually, I had one job offer that was on the table when I finished the MW and I'd already finished the MS. And that guy literally said, I hope you don't think that now you're an MW, we're going to boost the offer. The offer stands as it is. And I was like, wow, they're good. No, then I'm staying where I'm at. No, I, it really was, I had hope and it did allow me to do a lot more writing. And that was really the goal. I literally was being treated by, in general, I was being treated by the, you know, sort of the world of wine publications as, who the hell are you?

18:55 You live where? Yeah. And, and once I got MSMW, you know, all of a sudden it was like, oh, we'd love you to write an article for us. And, and that was the, that was the goal. And then of course, you know, one thing led to another and, and I, I went out on my own within a few years. But the truth of that is, is that I, most of my, not most, but I would say at least half my income going back 25, 30 years ago when I finished both the exams, has been derived from spirits and cocktails. From that whole world, there's more money there really. And I've been involved in that world since I was a kid as well. So the wine side of things certainly paid some of the bills, but I was able to go off on my own, I would say more primarily due to being able to do teaching and create educational programs for distillers and wholesalers who wanted people to learn about spirits and cocktails as much.

19:51 Seems to be the sign of the times. I mean, wine sales are slumping. There's, you know, they're pulling vines out all over the world because there's not enough buyers. You know, we'll talk about the generation gap when it comes to wine and appreciation. But on the spirit side, you know, I just, you were talking about hospitality. It sounded like you were in the restaurant business most of your career. Yeah. Yeah. One of the great restaurants in Pasadena, California here was the Raymond. And we had dinner with the owners a few weeks ago, a few months ago, and she's like, yeah, we're selling and we're going to, we're going to work our RTD cocktails. And so they got out of the hospitality, that daily grind. And she's, you know, I don't know if she— I'm not sure she does have a daily grind now because that industry is, you know, pretty slammed. But what is it? What is that movement about? Do you know?

20:39 Well, I think that there is just an inevitable evolution to, to how people view what's cool and what's not. And so, you know, there's no question that boomers really adopted wine. And so in my view, there's no question that Gen Xers were like, hey, if you think wine is cool, then I can't. And so they kind of let it go by. And then we saw millennials sort of come back to it. But I think that what has happened is that we had a good 25-year run when wine either increased in volume or it certainly increased in value. That's to say people were willing to spend more and more money. And that's over. I think that the day that began its inevitable, you know, in my view, decline was the, you know, 2008, the Great Recession started to really challenge people as to how much money are you willing to pay for a glass of wine? Mm-hmm. When you can buy a world-class beer for less money than a glass of decent wine, that you can buy a really great cocktail anywhere, you know, and you'll pay about the same as you do for a moderately priced glass of wine. And now we have new beverages.

21:57 Now we have a whole, certainly a whole movement among Gen Zers of not drinking at all, of doing cannabis instead of alcohol. There's just so many other choices. That I think it was inevitable that at some point things started going the other way. But I feel like as an old person, you know, I feel like, yeah, everything's cyclical. It's okay. I, you know, I started a winery in 2017, one, because I'm stupid, you know, but— Well, we're going to get to that part too. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm incredibly stupid. But 2, because I really do think that there's always going to be room for good wine. And that's what moved me anyway. I wanted to participate in that. I've, I've participated in some winemaking projects in the past, but to have really complete control was a brand new thing for me. And to be able to do it in a fashion after what I wanted to do, that would be really cool. I have participated in distillation projects as well, but it doesn't sing to me the same way that wine does. I felt like a really Really get to do something that, if not moves me, you know, that's maybe a little strong, but it's really not strong. It feels right. I feel like I'm getting to do something. And now if we can, you know, if we can figure out how to steward the land appropriately, and that's really the struggle now, we own about 400 acres, is how are we stewarding this land? I feel like that's a good thing to

23:30 do as well. And if I was just sitting in a, you know, distill— little distillation operation somewhere in downtown Kansas City, I don't think it would move me the same way. There's, that's a, that's a volume of what you just said. And it's so important. I mean, you touching on the stewardess, how much, how much under vine is this? We only have about 27 acres under vine. So there, I have this romantic notion about wine and I, and I didn't walk into the wine business with this romance. I walked into it because it was a business. It was my father's business. Yeah. The South African Wine of the Month Club in 1988 tendered an unsolicited offer and I was at corporate America and he says, you know, if you want this thing or you want to participate and you can't see behind me, but there's a picture. Let's see, where's my finger? There it is. 1975. This is, you can see me with my father. Oh, no way. That's you. Yeah. So we're standing at the first Wine of the Month Club display in a wine shop in Palos Verdes. But I don't, you know, I wasn't passionate for it, but I had this romantic notion with wine that all generations eventually when they have that glass of wine, and I hate the aha moment conversation, I don't want to have that, but it's when they recognize a properly, and I'm going to call them honest wine now, a humble wine that's not doctored up and it's not Cali Red from Snoop Dogg.

24:55 That they get it. And so it's a beverage of the ages and it's why it's been around for 10,000 years and, you know, it's still here. And yes, it's going to be susceptible to, you know, generational changes, but I don't think it ever really goes away in a huge fashion. It just, so right now it seems like packaging is sort of You know, the nuance. And I suppose when George Clooney sells his tequila for $1 billion, that excites people to do something similar. So now I'm seeing a lot of brands coming out that are canned, smaller versions, you know, 375s, 187s. And instead of what's in the bottle or the can being important, it's the packaging.

25:44 And that's just going to fly by. I mean, Yeah, I have to agree with you, even though it is important. And there's no question. I mean, somebody was— I had a conversation with somebody today who has a paper bottle that, you know, they're promoting and he's like, you need to get on board. You should check this out. It's not for great wine, but it's for decent wine. And it obviously the carbon footprint is much lighter and there's a lot of reasons to do it. There's a lot of reasons to look at these alternative packages. And I will continue to think that through. But I'm trying to make wines that age, that you're going to stick in the basement, and you're going to hang on to them for 5 to 10 years or whatever. And then hopefully you draw it out and you go, wow, this is not just still good, it's better than it was. It's more interesting than it was. And you can't do that in a paper bottle. You can't do that in a bag-in-box. You can't do that, you know, in a can. So if I'm trying to be in the beverage business, the just plain old beverage, lowercase b, business, then fine. You know, whatever packaging appeals to younger consumers is probably where I should be putting my head. But I'm just— I've decided that I don't want to grow so big. I mean, our winery will capacity, you know, its capacity maxes out at 10,000 cases, which is to me sort of the sweet spot. If you go above 10,000, Mm-hmm.

27:10 You're trying to be all things to everybody. If you're below 10,000, you can kind of just do what you think you're supposed to do, do it well, and you should be okay. That's the part that bugs— bothers me. And I entertain these conversations. I want to hear what they're thinking, but they have no passion for the product. They have passion to hopefully develop the product, put on the shelf, steal some shelf space from some big brand and have Constellation come buy you because they're just probably taking their space. And that's not, you know, that's not the wine. You just described the life cycle of 98% of the products out there. Exactly. So, you know, this carbon footprint thing too, I say it bothers me. I understand it.

27:52 I agree environmentally we have responsibility. And certainly your, the comment you make of stewarding the land is a very important one. And I think most winemakers throughout the world, as you studied, would tell you that you're just passing through this and it's the next generations after you that we're going to reap the benefits that you do. And then the ones after them are going to reap their benefits. That's just the way the industry is. But I had a conversation with a Cornell food professor, lack of a better word. He is a consultant for canned wines and his job is to maximize the value of that food-grade lining That goes in the cans.

28:35 And he was telling me that, you know, right now it's looking like 6 months. Now I have a, I think I got it from Peter. I think I got this, I did get it from Peter about 15 years ago. I got a Merlot in a 500 ml from South Africa. I'm pretty sure Peter gave it to me. And the food-grade lining has separated from the plastic. Right. And it looks disgusting. Oh yeah. And this Cornell guy's saying, yeah, right now we're looking at 6 months. You know, this is, it's just, you know, 6 months is the thing we're trying to push into 2 years. Doesn't that just in its own definition tell you how gross that is? Yeah.

29:16 I mean, I applaud the effort because the vast majority of wine is consumed, as they say, whatever that number is, we always— 24 months around 98% of all wines are consumed within 48 hours of purchase or whatever the hell it is. So, Good on you. Go for it. Do some packaging that takes up less carbon and takes up less energy and all of that, and hopefully doesn't take up as much space in a landfill. But if you're going to make a wine to age, like you said, we're still told don't presume that wine's going to be good 9 months from now. Yeah, it's impossible. I just, it scares me that they're in the lab somewhere, you know, manipulating plastics. And he was telling me there are epoxies, there were some words he was using that kind of confounded me. That's the, you know, that's the basis of the coating.

30:12 Yeah. Yeah. But I also understand, you know, times are different, times have changed. And so my romantic view of wine you know, may not survive that, but I'll make you laugh. One of the women that came in here who's got a product in cans, I said, well, do you think Lafite's going to get in a can one day? She says, absolutely. I'm like, it's like someday being in 350 years. Yeah, right. When there's no more glass. I thought that was really hilarious. Would you recommend this path to your colleagues that are in the hospitality world, that are restaurateurs, that are working the line in the kitchen, you know, and they want to learn about wine? Would you recommend the same path today? I'm not sure I would. I think that, and I've said it all along throughout this process as I've taught and examined, I've said, look, you know, don't do this because you think you're going to get the brass ring.

31:13 Because as I say, I got zero interest from anybody after I, I passed both exams. Um, and it's very, you know, different today. But I also have to admit that the, the heyday for the Master Sommelier was probably 10 years ago, uh, right when the, you know, the SOM movie came out. Everybody got into that and people really talked about it. And, and there were a lot of people who found jobs because of that. But you're supposed to work where it, you know, at a place that values you and you value it and where it's a fascination for you. You know, and that's been how it has been for me. I love the hell out of this. I'm having a great time. Nobody in their right mind should ever presume they're going to get rich in the wine business because— No. Certainly, yeah, certainly as I told my business partner in the winery, it's like the only way you make a small fortune in the wine business is by beginning with a large one.

32:04 You know, you know. You know the saying? And so you do it because you love it. And so you do the, to me, you do the exams because you love that process and you want to be part of that process. Yeah. Because you love that group of people and you want to hang out with those, you know, like-minded souls. But if you think you're going to get a big fat paycheck at the end of it, I really do think those days have passed. That's a really, really good point. And the passion has to drive you to it and Get you through it because you actually, probably now it's probably hard to motivate thinking that you're going to get a 6-digit job when you graduate through all the work it takes to get it done. That's a lot of work. Yeah. I had Michael, I had an author in here. He wrote the book I Drink and Know Things. It's a 52-week travel through the world of wine and every week you taste something new on your own with this book. And I think he was on, either he failed out of the Master of Wine or he's still got like 1 or 2 tests left. He passed with Vanessa. He started with Vanessa Conlon and, you know, she's obviously passed, but he's having a struggle with it. But he's written some books.

33:17 I had another point that I wanted to make on that, but I don't remember what it was. We were taught, you said, well, I know what it was. The comment you made about making $1 million in the wine business to start with a billion. I had the, I've had 2 wonderful quotes about what I've done in my career. One was from Buddy Hackett. Oh, nice. And we were at a golf tournament. He was sitting at my table and he saw my sticker and it said Wine of the Month. He goes, Wine of the Month? I want to go to Miami. So, you know, it's a corny joke, but it's from Buddy Hackett. So you got it. But it came from Buddy Hackett. Yeah. So come on. You know. The other was I had Kevin O'Leary on the show, you know, the famed Shark Tank guy. And he said the same thing you did. You know, it's very hard. But then on the flip side, the winemaker for the basketball players, Yao Ming, when he first started in Napa, Hinman, Hinman, Hinman. Anyway, he says, you know, I've been to the most amazing places in the world. I've eaten the most amazing food, drink the most amazing wine, and meet the most amazing people. I don't make that much money doing this, but man, that's not a bad way to hustle a lifestyle, right? Oh, it's absolutely true. I often will use the Son House quote, the famous blues singer who said, I've never been a rich man, but I spent more money than a rich man ever had.

34:38 Yeah, that's a good— I like that. Yeah, that's the way it is in the wine business. You eat, drink, you know, you eat and drink well. You're not taking a lot of money home, but that's okay. You're living good. It's funny, when I sold the company, it was only been a few months. The guy bought all of my subscription wines, things that I paid $3.17 for up to maybe $12 and wanted nothing of the stuff I collected during COVID Because during COVID they bought anything I told them to. Wow. Yeah. Nothing was off limits. And so I started collecting some Grand Cru and Premier Cru and some, you know, exclusive Napa and he wanted nothing of it. So actually my wife came, they just finished our sort of ad hoc cellar we're building in our kitchen that's going to hold about 2,000 bottles. Right on. That I get to enjoy. I guess it, I guess that, you know, I guess you could say it would've, I could've gotten the cash if the guy wanted it, but all right. So I didn't get the cash. I got the wine. I'm happy with that.

35:36 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's these days it's harder to find the wines. So you said something funny, but it's not funny, but it is a question I had written down. You said, you know, how incredibly stupid I was to start a winery. Hey, you're from Kansas, so how'd you end up in Walla Walla? And then, you know, you know what headwinds you were going to have. You studied it and you still did it. Yeah, no, that's certainly true. I think I saw that this was kind of the one and only chance if I was ever going to do that, this is when I do it. And I wanted to have that experience. I wanted to be able to learn from that experience, and I've really enjoyed it. Even though my wife keeps saying, are you having fun? I'm like, what's fun about fighting Mother Nature?

36:25 You know, it's like, no, fun is the wrong word, but I wouldn't not do it. It's not like joining the high school football team. You know, this is different. Yeah. Yeah. It's, but it's certainly true that I actually still live in Kansas City. And I travel back and forth between Kansas City and Walla Walla, but I have a team there. You know, there's winemaker there, there's a general manager there, there's a winery that's almost done there, you know, la la la. There's people to keep pushing the rock uphill. It happened really because it was kind of an accident. A friend of mine who used to work for me, he owns a small portion of a wine brand and he tried to draw me in on that. And then that kind fell apart. And one of the patriarchs of the Walla Walla wine industry is a wonderful man named Norm McKibbin, who owns Pepper Bridge and Amavi and a bunch of different projects up there, who literally just called me up out of the clear blue and said, you know, you got a raw deal. You should have been in on that deal. Why don't you come up here and take a look at some on my land and pick something out? And I was like, what, really? And I have one business partner who'd been chomping at the bit to do a project somewhere. Of course, he was looking at Napa and I was like, you couldn't put a gun to my head and make me go to Napa. Those are not my style of wines. I had nothing against them, but they're not what I want to drink. And I've always said, you know, this to my business partner, look, we better like the wines we make because we may have to drink them all. So, you know, it's like, and I knew I could go to Walla Walla

37:55 and make a style of wine that I thought was valuable. Yeah. and that wasn't necessarily being made at that time. And, and so then it was, it was okay, you know, to me it's like, yeah, I'm gonna put the— really, if you will, my last big project. This is my last big project. Well, congratulations. I, I think it's great. I love, uh, you know, it's entrepreneurial and you already knew the headwinds. So, and I think choosing an area like Walla Walla where you're going to get structure and you're going to get terroir and you're going to get things that separate the wines from others. And I think Washington's one of the great districts. So it was interesting because I was speaking to your Master Somm colleagues and they're trying to educate the American palate on Australian wines. And we've seen, you've seen for sure the ebb and flow of Australian wines have come to America. Oh yeah. But one of my greatest recollections, it's not, it's not the aha moment, but it is a moment where I can still taste the wine. It was probably 15 years ago. was this Riddick Vineyards, I think is it, one of the Bolles Valley Cabernet. And I just, I still taste it. Oh yeah.

39:01 You know, and your comment about Napa is, it's sort of, it's accurate. It's depressing a little bit because it has the potential to produce some pretty interesting things if you let it. And we've unfortunately landed on a style that the consumer wants and You know, that's what's driving it. Yeah, I think you're right about that. And nothing against it. I really do think that every, you know, a well-executed style of wine will find its audience. And Napa has clearly found their audience. And, but the sad truth, of course, is that their audience is aging. It's aging out really. And so there's a, If nothing else, the style of the wines that we're trying to make are lower in alcohol. The highest alcohol wine we've made was 14.2, and that was kind of a one-off. You know what? It's not like I have a particular number I'm going for. Right. It's more a matter of I just, I grew up or not grew up. I learned about wine drinking, European wines or California wines, including Napa wines from the '70s. And those wines typically weren't high in alcohol, and they feel better on my palate.

40:15 So really, I feel like that's part of what other generations are demanding. They're saying, you know, show us lower alcohol wines, show us less— they call them, of course, manipulated wines. And I think that's a bullshit term, really. Yeah. It's just that they're no longer impressed by a lot of oak, a lot of alcohol, a lot of extract. They want wines that have a little more charm and elegance to them, or at least that's what I'm hoping they want. You know, it's funny, you jogged a thought and you're talking about Manny Khomijian and he was up at Darrell Corti's place. This is years ago. And Darrell opens an Armenian wine, which is my heritage. And Emmanuel says, oh, you know, now not only do I need to learn about them as a master sommelier, this is my curiosity. I got to compete against You know, because those, they're coming online. Yeah. Where do you think Walla Walla, you know, Washington wines have been around forever.

41:11 I've never seen them really ebb around here. You know, and, and I always consider my Tuesday tasting in 35 years of virtually every Tuesday, sort of a litmus test of what's going on in the industry. But where do you, where do you think Walla Walla or the Washington wine scene sits in its, its sort of its What's the word? Timeline. Yeah. Well, it's possible, I think, and not an exaggeration to say that there's something of an inflection point happening right now. And that's to say Château Ste. Michelle, which was the stand-in for Washington wines, even though I'm sure 98% of the people buying Ste. Michelle wines had no idea the wines were from Washington. But nonetheless, that's, you know, that's what people thought of when they thought of Washington wine. And now St. Michelle has been bought by a venture capital group and they've withdrawn from almost half of their contracts.

42:08 Their numbers are way, way down. They've been selling off contracts, selling off wine, selling, giving up on contracts. And I think that it's a moment in which the Washington wine industry has an opportunity to redefine itself. And there's a whole bunch of little guys like me who are super excited about that because land is still affordable there. I could, you know, that's really, if you will, one of the reasons I went to Walla Walla is because I could afford the damn land. And we have a chance, I think, to do something really interesting, make wines of our own style and get out from under St. Michelle's shadow, even though the next 2 or 3 years I'm sure will be painful for a lot of growers. And just like, as you said early on, it's happening around the world where people are grubbing up vines and realizing that we've overplanted. That's going to happen in Washington as well.

43:02 Just like it's happening worldwide. And so there's pain to come, but I honestly think that we're at a, in a place where we get to redefine ourselves. And that hardly ever happens. You're not going to ever see, or at least in our lifetimes, Napa will never be able to redefine itself. But we get— well, there are some burgeoning brands like Charles Smith has made, raised some popularity. Yeah. I think Charles Buehler too is, you know, there's, there seems to be activity and that's prominently Washington on the label that, that's where it's from. So, and it does, I mean, some of the complexity and the structure of the wines from those various appellations in Washington are fabulous if you're seeking those things. Right. And I, yeah. You know, it's an interesting point you make because Wine's agricultural. And I, I mean, you're a farmer now.

43:48 Guess what? You went from Kansas City, now you're a farmer. That's right. I guess Kansas has farms too, right? But, oh yeah. You know, people look at it as a romantic, I've got a brand, I've got this big chateau in Napa. And then they realize, oh, I'm really a farmer and it's really hard to make a buck in this business. And so the passion sort of wanes from that. But at the flip side, my company existed because Agriculture is not a specific science and you always overproduce. Yeah. And, you know, or if you do produce it, you don't know what to do with it once you make it. So we gotta sell it somewhere and you put it in the open market and sell the juice and whatever. And we, we survived on these, on, on this concept.

44:30 So, well, you had the connections to do so and that's, that's certainly what it comes to. That took time. Somebody, yeah, somebody who knows what's going on can spot the, the trends and then has the connections to take, you know, to act upon it. So do you have a direct-to-consumer program at Echolands? Yeah. You know, like everybody else, we have a wine club. We certainly are just about done building a winery that we believe will draw a lot of people there because for whatever reason, it seems that wine clubs only prosper when people go to the winery visit and say, I want to be a member of this club. We opened our doors, or I should say the first wine we made came online March of 2020. How's my timing? You know, it's like, you know, we couldn't start a winery or couldn't start a— You didn't have a website yet. So yeah. Oh, it was, I mean, it was like, holy shit. But nonetheless, you know, we weathered that and now we have what really will be, at least for a time, this incredible this incredible facility that's going to draw people to it.

45:39 And so we're going to, you know, we're going to be the shiny object for a while, and we have to make those relationships, you know, create relationships with the people who show up there. Because I still live in the world— I had this argument with a guy who visited not too long ago, is a retailer in Seattle, and he was just like, you're talking about selling one bottle at a time. I'm talking about selling cases at a time. And I said, well, I'm not, I'm never going to talk about that because that's not the business I want to be in. I've been in that business. I was a wholesaler for, you know, 15 years. And what I love is the one bottle at a time business. That's really fun. And so that's what we have to do. And to your point, we've got to develop direct-to-consumer, but based on that relationship that we're going to bring, you know, send you 6 bottles, not 6 cases.

46:26 Well, you know how experiential wine is and that's, so what you don't, what the mistake you don't want to make is that you've got this person that's raised their hand, that's shown up at your winery or that's gone to your website and said, yeah, I'm not just a prospect anymore. I'm a suspect for a sale and you let it go. And so I'm teaching my young niece who wants to sell salad dressing and she's showed me her website. I go, where's your email collection? I mean, if somebody has gone to your site and they've raised their hands effectively to say, hey, I'm interested to see what you have, and you let 'em get off the site without an email address. Oh, wow. You let them into your tasting room without asking for, why don't you join the club? Because every time, here's the difference between what your club could have been or can be and what I just got out of. And I think the sales in general wine clubs other than winery ones, have suffered through post-COVID because of this concept. And that is every time somebody opens your bottle of wine after they join the club goes back to that day that they stood there with Doug Frost and tasted wine. That's just what happens. It's like, it's like the most obvious thing that's happened in my career is people go to Europe and then they text me pictures of the wine they're drinking. I'm like, why are you, first of all, aren't you on vacation? Why are you, why are you sending me pictures?

47:47 You got something better to do. Your wife is sitting there, your husband, right? Anyway, and I get them the wine, same vintage, whatever it is. Let's say they're sitting in front of the Parthenon and they're having the house wine and they, and they, I'm able to get it. Yeah. They invariably will tell you it doesn't taste the same. Oh, I know. That's so true. Yeah. And it's because you're not, you know, the kids are pulling on your shirttails. They want to go to school. You got to make lunch. Whatever's going on in your life is not sitting in front of the Parthenon with the, you know, your best pizza you've ever had. Not that experience any longer. Yeah. And I think what you're doing with, when you do that in the winery, it's so important. And I was going through my dad's effects and I found the document that he transferred to me when I bought the company, which had the financials and stuff. But it had, here are the, here's your competition. This is 1970, 1988. If you imagine there was only maybe 6 wineries in Napa that had clubs and it was like Inglenook, you know, Mondavi, you know, just the name. Yeah. basic ones.

48:44 Yeah. Yeah. And you're going to skip the wholesale, you're a wholesaler, you're going to skip all those margins, go right to, right to, you know, retail. Exactly. And they're glad to do it. Hell yes. Because you showed them something, you showed them something cool. I think that's incredible. And I think that's the survival of, well, when we were going to Napa in February of 19— of '20, and I got, I had a meeting with Sarah Clearman of the Napa Valley Register. And I thought she was going to write this glowing article about the guy that's been doing this the longest. And no, it had nothing to do with what she wanted from me. She was, they knew COVID was coming and she was trying to figure out from a direct-to-consumer standpoint, how are these small wineries going to get through this when they don't have, you know, e-commerce presence? Right. Well, and that's it, you know, and that's how people got through. And those that had an e-commerce platform and had developed a strong base, they were fine. And those of us who were just getting started, well, we had, you know, one hand, if not both hands tied behind our backs. Yeah, right. We figured it out. You know, we got through it. It was just one, again, make sure that when somebody visits your site, you create a relationship with them. You don't just, you know, put some pictures up and hope they'll buy wine. Well, at least you weren't 80%, you know, on-premise. And, you know, we're counting on those sales to pay the bills. Oh yeah. No, I, I, it really was funny because I, that was the idea. I'm, I have all these,

50:15 because of my background in the sommelier world, have all these relationships in restaurants. I was like, we're gonna focus on the restaurant business. That's, that's really where the keys are. And it's like, good luck on that. Yeah. So, well, so many distributors, wholesalers came out of COVID saying, we gotta start DTC, we gotta start DTC. Oh yeah. And it's, it's way less aligned with their model than a winery's model would be. I mean, being a wholesaler and trying to sell DTC is like 2 completely different things. There's no way you can, you can bite that off. Correct. So when you're a wholesaler, the, we're almost done. It is unbelievable already. It's 50 minutes, but you did it for 15 years.

50:56 Yes. What was interesting during COVID is, is When, when, when that 80% of the business was gone, I mean, I had chemists show up here. Oh, I know. You could get anything for a time. You know, you really could. And I'm like, you never came here before. Exactly. How come I'm important today? Yeah, exactly. Oh, it was really funny. All of a sudden, what years were you wholesaling? So I started wholesaling in 1981 and did that until '96. So I actually got my, you know, got those, finished those exams while I was being a wholesaler. Let's touch on that just for a sec before we get off. Huge consolidations in LA. The small importers are gone. Is it like that in the Midwest where you still have a plethora of small guys that are bringing in interesting things, or are they sort of consolidating under Southern and RNDC and stuff? It's actually— things are, I think, better than, than we often admit they are, you know, there's that ebb and flow, you know. Yeah, guys get gobbled up and then more new guys get spewed out, or, or, you know, more guys get angry at what's going on at Southern or RNDC or Breakthrough or what have you, and, and so they start their own thing. And, and so it's a constant ebb and flow for me. It's, it's funny, I, I do think, you know, when you look at the retail side, that's where it really feels constricted. You know, that the big box stores, they're buying from 2, 3 guys

52:27 and that's it. And I don't, you know, I worry about where that's going to go, but I think wineries have to make their own way. And because the big wholesalers, there's no way a big wholesaler can give a damn about me unless they have some small division, which I'm playing around. I'm in with Southern in New York and Florida. Because those are big markets and because they're working with these little tiny divisions that I know people there. And it's almost like an experiment that I know is gonna go bad at some point. They've taken care of me so far. But in most markets, I'm with little guys. I think you're, you're, I think, you know, like first of all, you should always test anyway, whether you're testing, you know, an adverti— an ad on social networking. Yeah. Or testing how you're distributing your wines. I think you want to maximize that value. But what's happening in LA, the books are so big now that you can't get any traction. Right. And, and what's, what's different than the old days and probably even when you were around is you were sort of a brand builder as a wholesaler. You could, you could talk about that. Yeah. Now, you know, Sutter's not going to build a brand for you. You know, you got to help them build the brand. They just want to, they want to deliver it for you. That's basically, I'm going to get a book here. Yeah, no, you're, you're 100% right on that. You really are. I mean, that's just how it is now. Brand building does not happen in a wholesale operation. No, it's just the way it is.

53:47 All right, we're going to wrap this up. It's already 52 minutes. It's been a fabulous conversation. I know we can do it again and still keep talking, but since you're as educated as you are, then, and I usually save this only for French people, but, and I had Arthur Delon in today whose grandmother, you know, is the Comtesse de Lalonde, the Pichon. Yeah. Unbelievable, unbelievable conversation. But, you know, I have to tell you this story just because you're in the wine trade. My dad took us to Vinexpo in 1993. Okay, cool. And I was young to the industry. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't even know where I was. I was in Puyacourt, Château Belgrave, Henry Vandervoort, who used to own— I remember I used to, I used to buy wines from Henry. You're kidding. No, I got stories about him. I got One story in particular.

54:38 He was fantastic. Henry was great. You know, he taught me a very solid lesson that I've used many times. And he, I was a young punk and so I, he wanted to sell me his Li Puyi Chinese vinted, you know, Chinese food. And I didn't return the call. And he finally called my dad and they both, they spoke French. I speak French. And so he says in French, he says, you know, the courtesy from your son, the courtesy of a response. And I've used that so many times in my career, not against somebody, but tell 'em, look, just the courtesy of a response. Exactly. Just be polite. You know, if nothing, be polite. Yeah. So Henri takes us to his Château Belgrave Vandervoort, and we cross the street from the Longueville, and he goes, we're going to go to dinner. So my mom and dad, my wife and I, we go to dinner across the way, and we're at now Pichon Lalonde, and there's this elegant woman. She's wearing a white dress, eyelid thing. probably in her 60s. Henry's in his probably early 70s. And we have a nice dinner. I don't, I have no idea where I'm at. I'm reading, um, and this is '93, so about 2, 6 months ago, maybe a year ago, I'm reading Wine and War from the Cladstrups. Oh, sure. Yeah.

55:49 Yeah. I remember the book. Sure. And they're talking about, um, May Hélène Longchamp. She is the Comtesse. She was there when the Germans came in, shot up the paintings and left their tar, you know, on the floor and the Oriental rugs, the Asian Persian rugs. Well, this is Arthur's grandmother. Wow. And so I woke up literally, Doug, about, I don't know, maybe 2 months ago. I woke up, I must have been dreaming or something, and I go, holy shit, I had dinner with this woman. Right. And I called the Cladstrops. They live in Paris. I said, I'm reading your book and I realized I had dinner with this woman. You know, I feel like I'm part of the history.

56:34 That just, I, we only met and we talked. I didn't even know if I spoke with her, you know, but, but because of Henry's relationship and apparently the, his rep at the time was Alain Rivière, who now is with Escalon. Oh, really? Okay. And so I emailed him. I said, Alain, do you remember this trip? He goes, yeah. I said, was that, was that May Alain? Lan Xiang? He goes, yeah, that's who that was. He goes, like Henry's little girlfriend. I'm like, oh my God. Anyway, I don't wanna bore you with my story. Just anyway, here, this is the book. It's called Wine Is the Best Medicine. Oh wow. It's by Dr. Maury, who was an MD in France. He was also a homeopathic doctor, and he wrote a book on the various ailments, human ailments, and what French wine would symptomatically relieve your problem. And/or maybe even cure it.

57:23 So it's things like allergies, anemia. And, and the answer, the reason I asked this question is for fun. I think I'm running about 33% right answers. So right along, you know, random sampling, but one, I'll give you 3 choices. Okay. But it's, it's kind of like, all right, I'm gonna give you the, the disease, I'm gonna give you 3 choices of wine. And it's more like, okay, why did you choose that answer? Right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna go with a fever. And if you have a fever, according to Dr. Murray, and we're also gonna go with the dosage on this. Ah, okay. You could have a Grave, you could have a dry champagne, or you could have a Côte de Beaune. One of those 3 will help you with your fever.

58:05 Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to, to, and I assume it's Grave Rouge, not Grave Blanc. Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna go with the, the, the Côte de Beaune. I'm just trying to imagine that the world of wine and medicine goes back centuries, and I'm just imagining that because you have a fever, you need something from the earth. You need something earthy to help ground you and bring that fever, that temperature down. If you have something higher in alcohol like Grav, it's going to be higher in alcohol than a Pinot Noir would be. So that wouldn't work for you. It's going to elevate your alcohol and to excite the blood as champagne is supposed to do. And again, I think that's probably kind of bogus, but that's its, you know, that's its, you know— That's a fascinating analysis. Probably the most thoughtful one I've ever had. Well, you know, it's fun. It's a fun game to play. And you know that I think Louis XV or one of the, one of the Louis, has, they've credited the curing of a disease. I think it was a Gevrey-Chambertin or something. Oh, really? That he drank.

59:15 And they say it cured him, but unfortunately that was the wrong answer. Oh, okay. The answer was the dry champagne, but maybe you'll get the dosage right. So the answer was dry champagne. Here's what it says. Why? Because these wines contain, among other things, 2 important elements for a feverish person. phosphorus, which is eminently stimulating, and sulfur in itself, in itself. I'm sorry, eminently stimulating. And there's sulfur in its sulfate of potassium form, which is detoxifying. Interesting. So, okay. That's, that's his analysis. But there's a dosage that goes with this, and I think the Taittingers would be very happy to hear this. So what do you think? How much of that champagne should you have a day? Apparently you're supposed to drink a bottle. That's exactly right. See, you're good. You got it. So maybe it didn't cure you, but you sure feel better when you're done with it. Damn straight. You know, why stop there? Exactly.

1:00:10 It's been a pleasure, Doug. I hope we can do it again. Well, thanks, Paul. No, it's absolutely been a pleasure and we'll have to exchange Henry Vandiver stories. I've got one in particular. Love to do it. And maybe we'll, maybe we'll do it over a barbecue in Kansas one day. There you go.