The Evolution of Bordeaux: Old Vines, Climate Change, and the Future of Fine Wine

0:00 I think the main point is, do you like or not the wine? What pleasure do you have to. Or emotion do you have to drink it? And this is also the message that has to be delivered by the Somme. Don't make it too complex. Even with fine wines, they are produced to be drunk and to give you pleasure. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul King. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California, January day. And we are going to have a conversation with Cyprien Champagne from Chateau Aubailly. Hey, have a watch. I just came out with a podcast about Winter Song.

0:42 It's a rom com, which I just heard this term romantic comedy held in Armenia. It's the first one ever done. It's in Prime Video. It's really quite interesting. And I had the whole production crew in here to talk about the production and how it came about. Have a listen to that. But not why we're here. It's good to see you, Ciprian. Again. We met either at the chateau, passing when we were there, or. Or maybe here in Los Angeles. Maybe here, yes, in a tasting, as we are pretty often in the US and pretty often in California. Yeah. Chateau Bailly, which. We've been there. We've. Veronique, the directories has been there how long she's been there, like 20 years, 30 years or something? Almost 30 years, yes.

1:29 But it seems to be on the cutting edge of today's wine environment, particularly when the industry is sort of slow. Bordeaux's got its woes, but you guys are out there shaking the tree all the time. You are traveling all the time. She's traveling all the time. You're going to be in Paris at. I mean, is that the strategy? You're the sales director and marketing communications director. I don't know if it's a strategy, but for sure it's in the DNA of the chateau to never stay and to always question how to do better, how to improve. How to be more precise, how to improve the quality, how to improve the hospitality also. And that's where we.

2:16 We decide everything. So each time we have a decision to make, is it going to improve the quality of the wines, improve the quality of the relationship with our partners, improve the quality of the hospitality, improve the quality of how we welcome people at the chateau. Is that done as a group, like in a board meeting type of thing, or is this passing in the vineyard having conversations or how these strategies sort of develop? No. So we have a board meeting, we have the owners, the Wilmers family, with whom we are discussing very frequently, they are very well involved, I mean, in the. In the decisions made at the chateau. But that's also, I would say, a spirit within the team. And people joining Aubain, they immediately embrace that spirit. And I think seeing the other being in that mindset helps you being yourself in that mindset. You see what I mean? Well, isn't he a teacher, Santa Cruz or something? Yeah. Chris Wilmers, who is the chairman of the board and the owner, he's a professor of ecology and environmental science at the University of California in Santa Cruz. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, that would have an influence, wouldn't it? That sort of philosophy that he's bringing around?

3:36 For sure, it has an influence and it's a great asset for Obei because, of course, environmental questions are crucial, particularly since a couple of years, and having him helping us, deciding or researching also, what is the best way to do at Obai is a great asset. Let's talk about that for a second. The sustainability side of things. I was thinking about it, and you said something very interesting that made me trigger this. And this is this idea of terroir, which I guess you're starting out learning about wine. You read about terroir and you sort of grasp this idea of the soil and the earth rotation and everything, and then you start thinking a little deeper and that, that terroir, of course, part of it has to be the winemaker's philosophy about wine, their history, what they've done, where they've been, that little nuances, a little, you know, fermentation techniques or barrel techniques or in the vineyard, techniques that start to evolve because of somebody's history can be part of the terroir.

4:40 But now, that thought that you just said reminds me that that terroir also probably starts in the boardroom as well. Isn't that part of that energy that's coming from the wine? Yeah, definitely. I think the terroir is central, I would say, and we are. The terroir will remain, and all the people working now at Obai will. Will. Will move at some point. So that's why it's key and central. And. Yeah, so we all. What we do is to first, of course, respect that terror, but also to try to. To take the best of it. I mean, and it's a. It's a mark of respect to. To. To do the best from. From that. You see what I mean? Yeah.

5:31 So I wonder, this whole movement for sustainability, which clearly the owner being. What he. What he does is. Is Interested in having. And Bordeaux seems to be one of the spearheads in the wine industry for sustainability. But it was always like that. How long have you been doing this? Have you always sensed that idea of respect for the terroir, even when times were tough? Yeah, no, that's a good question. I think generally speaking, Bordeaux in the 70s, in the 80s, was more in a approach of producing as much as possible. And also at that time, clearly we were less globally, all of us conscious about all these sustainability and environmental questions. Since now, I would say 10, 15 years, huge progress have been made and Bordeaux is really doing extremely well on this point with different strategies, some being organic or biodynamic. It's not our strategy. With the help of Chris Wilmers or Orner, we are following a kind of third way, which is trying to. For any decision made, to take into account, of course, the impact on biodiversity, but also the impact of carbon impact and the impact on health for the people working in the vineyard, but also for the neighbors

7:04 and of course, for the consumer. And this is also central. But even in the past, I think sustainability was already a question. At Obai, we have never used any weed killers, we have never used any insect killers. We have a very old vineyard, which means that it's also a way to be sustainable. We mentioned it earlier, some plots that are 120 years old, still alive, still producing. To. To maintain such an old vineyard, you have to have a sustainability in. In your. In your approach. Necessary. Yeah, it's interesting because old vineyards, deeper vines get their nutrients. You can screw it up for sure by doing these things. Has that.

7:54 Has that made that vineyard or your vineyards, these old vineyards, a little more resilient to the global climate change? Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's interesting to see that our very old vines, they are resisting pretty well to more extreme weather. So what we see is that the yields are, generally speaking, a bit lower, but much more constant. Which means exactly what you mentioned, that or vineyard. This old vineyard is particularly resistant and resilient and. And is facing extremely well. The more extreme weather we have, we have to face. Now, you know, this is a brilliant. This is a brilliant thing I came up with. Okay, you have to listen to this very carefully. Yeah.

8:38 Okay, so I'm listening to you. I have to tell myself this, that in a vineyard like Obie, and probably most vineyards and board though, that are earnestly a sustainable b, trying to protect the vineyard and pass it on to the next generation, that mentality. Right, yeah. That there are no bad vintages. That's a good thing. I think we have no more bad vintages also for two important reasons. First reason is climate change. We are benefiting. It's not politically. Politically correct. That's what you say. This political show, but we are benefiting from warmer, longer, drier summers and particularly late grape vitals such as Cabernet Sauvignon that requires such warm, long and dry summers is benefiting from the global warming and these conditions. On the other hand, we are impacted by the climate change mostly in spring, and we are facing more extreme spring conditions now with higher risk of frost, higher mildew pressure, and so on. But this longer and better summer, I would say, helps us producing fruits that are riper. We have a better control of maturity, and therefore we can produce a better wine. And the second reason why we have no more bad vintages is that

10:10 incredible progress have been made in vinification in the tools. Also, important investments have been made in. In the wineries to. Yeah. To. To. To vinify more softly and to get a better expertise in vinification. Yeah. Now, here's my. Here's the ultimate definition. Yeah. And that is given the way Obay functions and the way you have an honest, humble approach to what you're doing, that as long as that vintage, that what's in the bottle is representing what you were given. If you're. However the grapes came out, however you. With all the experience and I. It's hard for me to explain this sometimes to people that are learning wine that it could take a hundred years to understand what you're going to get from this vineyard. Like, in other words, you ha. It's just experience. You and I can start a vineyard tomorrow, but we have no idea what we're going to get, how we're going to get it. But if you represent that vintage, the terroir, the weather, the soil, all the different things that go into a vintage, that you've created an honest expression of that vintage. Yes. And that's clearly one of our goal. I mean, we don't want a wine that is standardized and every year the same. And that's a challenge. What we want to do is to have a recognizable style that is constant and some variations around that style that are the

11:43 reflection of the weather of the year. Okay. So it's like in music, you have the theme that is the style of the estate and variations around that theme. And these variations are the reflection of what happened during the year. And we are very happy to have differences from a year to another. And personally, I think it would be boring if it would be. It was every year the same. Yeah. So that leads into this. And since you're in the marketing, sales side, that and I love the way you said that there's a style, the Obail style. So if I'm an Obail fan, I know that I'm going to get in the bowels of the Obailee. We're trying to create the style that represents Obail, but we are also influenced by the vintage and things that go on. And I think that's a great way of putting it.

12:29 But wine is consumer driven. And so years ago I read an article where this gentleman was lambasting, criticizing the wine trade because we were not going to the consumer asking them what they want. We're only delivering what the vineyard and the terroir gives us, which is what the expression of wine should be. Right. But you go to the supermarket and that's what you see. All the consumer driven wines that seem to have, I'm not sure you can tell the difference between half the wines that are in the shelf because they're all driven towards a formula. And so I'm wondering, what I try to wrestle with was, is that consumerism, that formula driven wine, more prevalent today 2026 than it was 1985 or 2000 or even 20 years ago?

13:21 Like is the industry moving more towards consumer driven products, including packaging, and less about an honest glass of wine or in my opinion, this is my opinion. Every generation comes around to understanding what, what's in a bottle of Obail? That's tough question, tough question, tough question. I can answer at least for all category of wine, such as Obail Classified growth. And I think of course, we are more than happy when our wines are bought and drank. And that's the reason of doing that job for all the teams or raison d' etre is to produce high qualitative wines that are drunk and that creates emotions and pleasure to the consumer.

14:16 But on the other hand, with the nature, you, you cannot really cheat with nature, I think. And we want also to be the reflection of where we are from, of the weather of the year and so on. And therefore we cannot just answer what we think the consumer needs are because we are fully dependent on nature. However, what we see in the recent years is generally speaking, people are less patient to age their wine in their cellar and they have less space and they prefer drinking wines younger than in the past. And it happens that the weather conditions and the progress made in vinification in the recent years help us to propose wines that are much more approachable in their youth than they were in the past.

15:11 But I wouldn't say we are. We have changed significantly our way of making our wines to please some consumers. Palate. I wouldn't say so. And I also say that even more as Aubay, because Haubai's style is very recognizable and is very constant. And that's something we are very proud of, that if you taste a haubai that is 10, 20, 30 or 40 years old, you will recognize this same style. And we were not impacted, impacted by some trends or other. And we are very loyal to our style. And that's something in the end that the consumers, the sommeliers and the collectors love with obey. It's precisely that consistency in terms of style and quality. Of course, the most poignant, let's say the most obvious, the most rewarding thing that happens with me and my friends who have come to wine over the years is they latch onto the mainstream versions.

16:21 I'm not going to name any names, but there's many wines, of course, in Napa Valley and Paso Robles that, that people see the label and they've created great branding, but they get bored of them because they don't represent anything. They just add sugar or micro oxygenate or whatever they do to make this character that is pleasing to the palate, to the, to the novice, so to speak. And then when they taste an obai or any other classified growth that has character and interest and most importantly, the word you used earlier, emotion, their light goes on. Yeah, and, and I think that's the ace in the hole for us. In other words, that is what keeps the wine industry going because of that curiosity and that emotion like no other beverage. Yeah, that's true. It doesn't happen with beer.

17:15 Bourbon. Right. You know, you get it's. Though I do know people that drink the same bourbon every night, every time they go somewhere. But, but, but I think this is what. When I read all the pundits and we have to rethink the industry, we have to come up with new language. And I'm like, I don't think so. You know, we're just going through this phase. Yeah, exactly. And yeah. And of course, number one criteria will be keep doing high qualitative wines. I think it's absolutely necessary. And you cannot play with quality. And then it's a matter of education also.

17:56 And we work hard to, to educate the younger generation to the pleasure you can find with these fine wines, discovering the differences from a vintage to another, from a vineyard to another, from an appellation to another. And when you put your finger in that discovery, it's an endless story and usually people love it. So education is, is crucial also. It is endless. And that's, maybe that comes circles back to the very first part of our conversation, which is that's why you get on a plane and you fly around and you have these conversations. A very slow industry anyway. And then it's even slower to get the wines into the hands of the people that could, could make a difference for the, for the brand. And you said something earlier which sort of.

18:49 It aligns with the idea that, you know, in California we've pulled up, I think, 50,000 acres of white vines, cannot predict the changes in the industry. But in wine, you have to think at least five years out as what you're doing. And so all of a sudden, five years out, the marketplace has changed and you have way too much wine. Yeah. And what's interesting, I do a lot of business and work with the Armenian wine community because they're. And what they've done in the short amount of time since technology showed up after the Soviet era is pretty amazing that they've been able to change. Not unlike the Bordeaux change from the 70s to, to now, but they have a glut now. Yeah. Everybody jumped in. They want to be part of the industry and they think it's going to make a lot of money and all the rest of it. And I get my own brand and taste my own wine and all that, and all of a sudden there's not enough drinkers for all the brands. Right. And it's very hard to get going. But that's always been the case. We see that at the moment in Bordeaux, in less renowned appellations, you have also a lot of vineyards that are pulling out some vines and so on.

19:56 And we are. And we estimate that in 2026, after all these vines pulled out, we will go back to the size of the vineyard in the early 80s. Wow. So that's really going back. So. Yeah. And it reflects also these cycles we were mentioning. It's very sad for those who are obliged to pull out and to reduce the size of their vineyard, but that's life also. I mean, margins are hard enough in this industry. And then to have the expense of, you know, it costs money to pull vines out and start all over again. But what you're right about is it's a long term business anyway. So each time you take a decision, you have to look forward and very far away forward. And when you pull out vines, you need to wait minimum 15 years before you can get qualitative fruits produced by new, new plant advance. So if you decide to pull out now, you need to estimate what will be the need in 15 years. I mean, how. Yeah, impossible. And also everything that is made in the vineyard will most of the time benefit more to the next generation than to ourselves.

21:24 So that's also the beauty of that job. Yes, but the difficulty of that job. We're all just passing through this. Yes. You know, one of the things that I thought was very fascinating, particularly with the new Obailee tasting room and the experience there and this patch here. Les Amis Devant was a group in America. There were 150 chapters. My dad had a chapter in the wine shop in that picture. And it was about the experience of wine. Now he's talking about 70. So you're talking about the judgment of Paris. You're talking about prior to that where nobody knew drank wine. The. The wine shop. The liquor store my father bought in 1969 was a liquor store. Yeah, it was beer, ice and booze and a little bit of wine.

22:09 And he turned it into one of the top five wine shops in Los Angeles by 1975. And Jim Barrett, the owner of Chateau Montelena, would come in. It was a neighbor. And my dad carried the wines. We even carried the 1972 Chardonnay the year before they won. And because wine was experiential and they'd hold these dinners at the local venues and people would come and everybody be dressed up and Robert Mondavi would speak and all the, you know, even Michael Broadbent spoke. And I think that's coming back. I think it's almost necessary to come back. I think it's part of what builds the thought process of wine and the emotion around wine. And I think what you've done at Obailee is amazing for that exact thing. Yeah, you are, you are perfectly right. I think what's wine is also all about sharing. So I mean, what's nice with wine is sharing the bottle with friends, discussing, arguing and so on and all of that going on. And I think what's doing very well in Bordeaux at the moment, and Bordeaux was a bit late on this topic, is all the wine tourism and how we host events and welcome people. And we have opened now the doors of the chateaus. And since 10, 15 years now, big, big progress have been made in Bordeaux for that. And it's a booming activity. And that's the best way to reboost, I would say, or

23:42 to boost the sales and the wine consumption because people are coming, they are seeing where the, the wine is made, how it is made, where it comes from. They meet the people making the wine and they can enjoy now in a lot of estates, lunch, dinner or whatever. And that's the case at Obei. And we are welcoming more and more visitors, always with personalized visits and taking a lot of time with our visitors to explain them, to show them around the vineyard, the winery, the chateau, taste with them, some wines and so on. And some of them are staying for also because we have some rooms or are. Are coming for lunch and dinner.

24:24 Don't I know it. Yeah, and, and, and I think that's also a way to recreate some desires about, about wine. And, and, and these experiences are part of the pleasure of drinking wine now. Yeah. But I think Eno tourism is up all over. Yeah. And even with we, we're, we're going to Ireland and a few months we're going to drink whiskey. But the idea of visiting a facility that makes libations like that I think is part of almost all itineraries. I have coffee every morning at Starbucks, you know, which costs the plenty and so, and everybody, it's the neighborhood. So parents that I've known since little league days, my kids and all that. So they always stop at the table and they're always going somewhere and they're always saying where do you, where should we visit? And it's always about the winery. Now of course I'm in the wine trade, but it seems like so much of tourism in general is that you want to visit a winery. Maybe now, maybe it's not the primary function of your tour, but you want to do it. It's a destination, it's an interest factor. It's something fun to do. So Bordeaux never did that. Right. I remember going to Pouillac not even that long ago, maybe 20, 15 or 14 and walking down the road, you can't go into the tasting rooms. It's appointment only. But that's changing a lot. A lot. Now. Almost, almost all

25:54 the chateaus are. Have people dedicated to welcoming visitors to show them around the estates. And that's a good thing. And this activity is booming in Bordeaux. Not only in Bordeaux, but also in Bordeaux. And Bordeaux has so many assets because you have all these chateaus, all these various appellations with their specificities. The city of Bordeaux also is beautiful. You know what? That's an interesting maybe that is the consumer, consumer driven products don't have to be just sugared up wine on the shelf at the Ralph's market. But consumerism can be driven through innotourism that's consumer oriented. Right. I want to go visit Bordeaux Chateau. And then you get. And then the economics come into play and marketing comes into play. And this is what I mean by that.

26:50 The original premise of social networking, and I did a lot of it at the Wine of the Month Club was, and it still is, if one person tells 10 people and they tell 10, they tell 10, they tell 10%, they've sold a hundred thousand people. Now, what about, you know, tourism? If 10 people show up in a group to taste wine, they go home, they pour wines for 10 of their friends, and all of a sudden, even though they didn't visit, this emotion for the experience has been conveyed to them through a dinner or through whatever they're doing. Yeah, definitely. And we treat any visitors very well also because we think, and I'm sure about, about that, I'm convinced about that, that they are becoming our ambassadors when they go back home.

27:34 And we want ambassadors to be convinced as well. So we treat people particularly well also for that because we want them to go back home and to tell to their friends, we went to Obai, we drank amazing wines, we were, we had a beautiful visit, we had a beautiful lunch or whatever. And then these people, they will either buy our wines or come to visit us. And it's a way to increase the sales. The trip that we made to Chateau baida, there were 12 people. Now, let me tell you something. I did not set out to take 12 people around, you know, not only Monaco for the Grand Prix, but Bordeaux in Paris. That was not my intention.

28:16 And I opened my big mouth to my friends. You know, maybe there's two or three couples we love to travel with, but I thought, oh, we're going to Monaco, why don't you come? Thinking they would say no, because Monaco is perceived to be very expensive and you know, what a trip. Well, they all said yes. So I end up with signed up with 12 people and thank goodness Le Pape was open, the six rooms. We stayed at the chateau, which is an amazing experience. But the point of that is every one of the chateau that we visited, we went to Baili, went to Cheval Blanc, we went to La Grange, there was Angelou's. There was something that happened that if I have dinner with that group, which I'm probably going to do tonight, there'll be a comment of one of the events that happened at that chateau that day.

29:04 It always changes whatever people remember at the time. And that's what's so important about this is this sort of memory and experience that they'll always bring home. Exactly. And also, I mean, drinking wine is always telling a story. And when you've been there and you, and then you're back home, you open the bottle of Ubai and you explain to your guests that you were there, you have met the technical director, you have seen the harvest or you've seen or whatever. It's something. Plus, I would say it will not change the taste of the wine, of course, but I think it's part of the wine telling story. And that's why I come back to what we were discussing earlier with the variations around that theme with the vintages. It's also, we are happy to remember what happened during that year. When we, when you open a vintage, it can be the vintage of your wedding or the vintage of your, the birth of your. Your son or girl or whatever, or something happened and you remember that and then you maybe remember the weather that was. And so on and all this is part of the wine. It's an emotion. Yeah. I will say in my career of tasting, every Tuesday for 35 years, unless I was sick or traveling, I tasted wine right on the other side of this wall, which amounted to a hundred thousand wines one time.

30:36 The taste changed when the price went down. Only happened once, but it did change for whatever reason. So, you know, Veronique was gracious enough to house or to bring in a young woman from Cornell enology school, Lisa. Lisa K. She's been on the show. I told you that she, her vid, her video. And Veronica's seen it. Yeah, I've seen it too. Yes, it did very well in the realm of podcasts because it made its way around Cornell University. It was in the newspaper and all those kind of things. But is that a typical stagier type thing where you do that at Obie, or is it. Yes, we welcome a lot of intense frequently. So we always have every year intense in their final year of enologist diploma. And they are coming during two or three months during vinification. But on top of that, we very frequently open our doors to different intents.

31:45 A lot of them usually, so they come from either Australia, South Africa, here it was California with Lisa. But usually they come from families involved somehow in the wine industry and very often from producers. So that was funny because last summer we had Lisa and just when Lisa left, we had a girl from South Africa coming. And then what is nice is that we have then that community of people all around the world who can talk about Obai, but it's also nice friends now friends of Obai, but also personal friends. We can visit, we can discuss about wine and we can go to visit them and they can come back and visit us and so on. So we always welcome people. And also because we are happy to share our experience, we are lucky to have this beautiful winery now that was built in 2020. That is really.

32:53 I think she's a piece of art. She was very cute. And I think if you watch the video, I think I brought it up, I don't remember, but when we first started talking about it, you know, her interest in wine and this probably. Probably each intern has their own path. But her interest in wine came because they do have a small vineyard around their home in the San Fernando Valley. And they made a win from it. It was a Cabernet field blend. Yeah, Cabernet and Merlot. And it turned into a small brand. So a couple things happened with this one. It piqued Lisa's interest, so we sent them to Napa. She interviewed or had a chance to sit with the female winemaker up there at Sequoia Grove and spark her interest. And then when she went to enology school, you know, that more then, of course, you know, I can't imagine.

33:46 Probably hard to quantify the impact the internship at OBAIL has on a person like that. Right. But what was cute was when she first said, she goes, you know, uncle Paul, I'm not so sure if I want to do this because they told me I'm going to go in the vineyard. And I don't know if I want to be in the vineyard. And I said, look, honey, if you don't want to be in the vineyard, you're not going to be a winemaker. Exactly. That's where you're going to be. And she goes the first day we're in the vineyard. And she goes, I love the vineyard. Yeah, she did really all the different jobs. So she was in the vineyard, she was in the winery. She was in my team also for the communication, marketing, wine tree Sim. She took part to some dinners with sommeliers from Los Angeles, by the way. Yeah, I know. Sebastian was in town. Yeah, exactly.

34:33 So it was great. But you are perfectly right. If you want to work in that industry, at some point you need to go in the vineyard, in the winery, do the things to understand even if you are not going to be a vitner, spending time in the vineyard with the people, with the master of cellar is very important. And I personally. So I'M not in the technical part, but when I joined Obay, I spent three months with all this team. I've done the entire harvest. I've done the entire vinification of the vintage 2020, which is very dear to my hurt now. But I use that every day in my job, so it's important. And all the members of my team, every year they spend one or two days harvesting, one or two days in the cellar to make some tasks for the verification and so on. And I think it's important to keep the link with the production because it's the hurt of our job.

35:41 My dad used to say, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta. I. I packed wine here. I charged the credit cards. When I first started with him, you know, I tasted with him. You know, it's kind of interesting when, when he called me, he says, I'm gonna sell the company I was working. I sold software. And he says, I've got an offer from the South African Wine of the Month Club. This is 1984, 87 or 88. And he goes, maybe you should come check this place out. And so I came and I packed the wine and I charged the credit cards and I tasted with him. And then we went to a Bordeaux tasting in downtown la, and we were separated by different. This is really interesting to me, different rooms even. We tasted the same 25 wines. And it was a classroom type tasting.

36:28 And we got in the car and he says, tell me your scores. And my scores, the way we scored at one of the month club is one, two or three. Yeah. And then I put. I added a 100 point scale after that. But one was no good at any price. Yeah. Two was just the way it is. We could use the wine in our club. And three was, the wine was good, but a little overpriced. And we were. Of the 25 wines, we were only off on two of them. And then he says, I think you're ready. And he left. Never saw him again. He decided that he was done with this and moved on. You know, we're going to wrap up here because we're almost done with time here.

37:08 But, you know, there is an interesting phenomenon in the wine trade, particularly in Napa. You know, tasting room traffic is off 30%. Yeah. And it's because of the cost. And this is what's kind of an undue influence, at least in the Napa Valley, where the hotels are charging the same amount they would if the place was full. Yeah. But they're not. They're running like 30% occupancy, but they're running with such less costs because they have a skeleton crew, housekeepers and all the rest of it, that now all that's affected is that the industry, the lack of tourism, because of the cost of tourism has. The tasting rooms are suffering. And it's a. I'm not sure what the resolve is because the economy is the way it is, but, you know, it's. It's a. It's a problem. So I think. And the point of that is I just drew this picture of a stool. It's kind of a three legged stool, right? You have tourism traffic, which is important, and you have wholesale traffic, which is important. And you have direct sales, which are important. How do you guys manage that?

38:19 Very difficult. No, it's difficult. We. No, we have. So if you compare with Napa, I think the tourism is up in our. Vineyard, which is interesting. And the main difference is that when you go. Most of the time when you go to visit a chateau in Bordeaux, you go to the vineyard, you see the cellar, you see the barrel cellar, and then you taste. It's not just a tasting, it's a visit. You see, when I visited a couple of Napa vineyards, and actually I didn't visit vineyards, but I went to tastings, so it's interesting to taste, but that's. A really interesting thought.

39:02 But what you want when you go to a vineyard is not only to taste the wine, is to see how it is made. You know, the backstage is something that people want to see, so that helps a lot. But of course, it's. It takes a lot of time. And on the same time, we need to deal with professionals, sommeliers, because that's the same for them. If you want your wine to be listed on a wine list, the best way to do it is to welcome the sommelier, to show the sommelier around the estate, taste some wines with him, and then he's marked with the experience.

39:45 And normally he will buy your wine, list your wine, and then tell his clients, I went there and I tasted beautiful wines. But the estate is like this, like this. These are the specificities and so on. And he can be the right ambassador for wine. You know, I was thinking more dumb, but I have to touch, I have to touch on this before I ask you our medical question here. The world of sommeliers, you know, is an interesting world. And part of the contemporary conversations that occur around wine are changing the language of wine. Meaning, I think that means trying to remove the aristocracy, right? The snobby part of wine and There are many psalms that have embraced that, that I've met. We were in Palermo in Sicily. Yeah.

40:40 And went to a restaurant on the seaside. And I couldn't get over the way that the energy and the enthusiasm and the inspiration he was. Slavic Psalm had. It was the best presentation. And anybody, whether you're a novice or an experienced person, would respect the way that this guy respected wine. Yeah. Then I went to extraordinary port tasting in Beverly Hills and I had a conversation with. With the Psalm there. And it was a totally different mentality. It was the old school song mentality where I know and you don't. And I think that's part of the, like I said, aristocracy of wine. Yeah. I think you have good and bad sums everywhere. Yeah. I guess that's the bottom line. But.

41:33 But where I agree with you is people sometimes are afraid of not. Are not comfortable with wine, with all this ceremony or too many technical things. I think the main point is, do you like or not the wine? What pleasure do you have to. Or emotion do you have to drink it? And this is also the message that has to be delivered by the Somme. Don't make it too complex. Yes. Even with fine wines, they are produced to be drunk and to give you pleasure. So let's go with that. Yeah. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure product. It's. Before being a technical product, it's a pleasure product. That's a good point. Yeah.

42:16 Maybe I was just inspired by this Slavic guy who's. Yeah. I even gave him a separate tip. I said, look, that was. That was so fun to watch. All right, this is the book. All right. It's called Wine is the Best Medicine. It's written by Dr. E.A. murray. This is from 1974. He was a medical doctor in France, and he was also a homeopathic doctor. And so he took a bunch of human ailments and wrote around based on the. I don't know, I guess the chemical. The chemical breakdown of a glass of wine from a different region. And fortunately for you, they're all French wines. Good. Because he's a French doctor. So I'm going to give you a. A human ailment. I'm going to give you three choices of a red wine or white wine that could solve the problem. All right? Now, just so you understand, there's no pressure.

43:07 Yeah. Because when on the average 66 of the people get it wrong, because it's just. Because there's only three choices, you have three. Three options. Okay, so we're going to go with nervous Depression. Okay, okay. In fact, he writes, we cannot ignore the great disease of this country. And this is France. You guys are nervously depressed. Would you have a champagne, a Cote de Bonne, or a Medoc red? And why. This is like the master of wine test. Why would you choose that? So I would choose Cote de Beaune.

43:48 And the reason why is a historical reason. Not because of the specificity of the wine, because I think these wines from Burgundy, at the time of the kingdom in France, they were renowned for keeping you in good health and in good mental health. Oh, wow. That's a good. They were given to the kings to. To maintain their. Their good, good mentality. Well, I'm sorry. You're part of the 66%. Sorry. And it was the Madox. Yeah. I set you guys up. Yeah. When I had the tape tanger in here, I, you know, the answer was a champagne. But it's. I'll tell you why it says the red Medoc wine. It says because the glycerin it contains combines in the intestine with the phosphates of the fermented grape juice to form glycerol phosphates of natural lime which have tonic virtues in which do not interfere with the functionality integrity of the nervous system. All right. I've learned. Yeah. Something that was like another good reason to drink border wine. That's right.

44:54 And the dosage is. We think that. How much should we have? Looks like a bottle a day. Says one or two glasses before and during meals. So that means no less than the bottle a day because we consider two. Only two meals in just lunch and dinner. Okay. So four glasses. Four glasses, yeah. Can't have it at breakfast. Yeah, you can. Such a pleasure having you guys here. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Are you going to be in Paris? Vervon Expo, for one. Paris. Absolutely. Veronica. So our president will be there. Gabriel Villa, or technical writer, will be. There o go visit. So come and visit us.

45:38 Monsieur Van Beek. Chateau Guiscore. Is he going to be there? Of course he will be there. Of course. I got to keep an eye on his wife. Keep an eye on you. Yeah, that's right. Thanks for coming in. Cheers. Thank you very much. I was happy to be there. Thank you.