"The Audacity To HIre A Woman" Says Veronique Sanders of Cht. Haut Bailly.

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1:17 Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are at away game in the grave district, the Pesach Leonon no see. Is it also pesachelnion or is it the grave Pesachelon? Engrave the grave region and the appellation of pesachelion. So the sub region. Hey, I want you guys to have a listen to a podcast I did with Paul Warston. Just came out a few weeks ago, and that is because he is the winemaker of an eight acre vineyard in Bel Air, California, if not known as Beverly Hills. The question is, who makes wine in Beverly Hills? Well, Paul does. It's a great conversation as well. There's another episode just came out with Julie Hernandez. Julie walked into my office about 20 years ago. I told myself, this young woman will never make it in this industry. It's too hard. And she became a local executive, one of the largest distributors in California, and she just retired. And it wasn't for her. I think wine of the month club would have been in dire straits to find wine and to make deals in this industry. So listen to that, but not why we're here. We're here to see and have a conversation with veteran Lisanders Van Beck and she's the director president of a Chateau aux Bailly here in the grave in the Pesach L'Oignon district. But welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Paul.

2:30 It's so fun because we met at the tasting at that crazy museum. What was that thing? That Uncle Ben's museum or something? Brain brainwashing. Brainwash, that's right. You have a better memory. And that was with Maison Marc domain group. And I want to talk about that too. A little bit, but more interesting. I just read this morning that you poured wine at a very important dinner at Versailles. And tell me President Macron was there. I mean, this is pretty serious stuff. Yes, this is a beautiful event which is called choose France. And Mister Macron invited top leaders around the world who might invest in France or investing in France.

3:17 So it was a dinner for, I think, 300 top businessmen from all around the world. And they choose obey. So choose, friends choose obey. That's right. Choose France. Choose. That's our new slogan, right? Exactly. Cause that's a pretty impressive accolade that the president of the country would choose to for that. Did obeyee always have that distinction in the world of wine? Or is that a more current distinction? Or is it something that you earn and takes a long time? I think Obaii has a very long history and a beautiful history. It always belonged to very strong personalities. And if you are looking at the great golden age of obey, between 1872 and 1940, Aubai was selling at the same price as the first gross Lafitte Latour, Margot Aubrion.

4:12 And at that time it was already very much looked after, regarded, considered. More recently, I know that Dominique de Villepin chose aubailly for meeting in New York with La Nue as a beautiful image of a french terroir which belonged to an american. So it was a symbolic wine chosen for this event to show also the friendship between our two countries. And you gave us the Statue of Liberty. I mean, that's a very important thing. No, that's an interesting thought though, you just said, because I'm here with a large group of friends and cousins and family and clients as well. And they're learning about the classification of 1855. They're learning about the classification of 1955. And here you're saying, which I thought when Napoleon III, the great nephew, right, of the great general, decided to do the classification, it was really for elevating the popularity of Bordeaux to the world's eye. Right at the fair in Paris.

5:26 And you were selling at the same price. And I always thought that the original classification was kind of based on the price. Actually, the classification of the medoc was done in 1855, but don't forget that in Bordeaux, you don't only have one classification, but you have several classifications. You have the one of the medoc and Sauternes made in 1855, which was supposed to last just the time of the world exhibition, based on price, but you also have the one of Saint Emilion, which is more recent, and the one of the classified growth of grave, which was done one century after. And we belong to that. That one. And Pomerol doesn't have any classification, although Petrus might be the most famous wine around the world. So that's an interesting concept, though, because nowhere else in the world, except for maybe Italy, the DOCG and Doc. And that's just not really a ranking, that's just the classification of the appellation. Does this exist?

6:25 And we had a conversation yesterday with Cheval Blanc Angelus, and talking about how I always have a hard time with their chardonnay, that they've opted out of the classification in Saint Emilion because it included hospitality service, hotel options. And they said, we're not going to play that game. Parking was part of this conversation. Do you think, just personally, that it should be a dynamic. Well, the case of Saint Emilion is special because it's a classification which is reopened every ten years. So if the rules of the game change, I can understand that some of them disagree or want to do differently. In our case, in the grave, it's very stable and it never reopened. So we are 14 classified growth with Aubrion being on leadership or leader or flagship. I mean, and all the classified growths are based in Pesach, like Aubreyon and Lamis Aubrion, and in Lyonon, where we are located with Aubai.

7:37 So that's interesting. It leads to this conversation about culture of wine. This group I'm with, we're learning that the french culture is wine. In fact, one of your representatives at Lepte said, you're almost not french if you don't like wine, which is a cute saying. That's what she meant. And I thought, that's very different than what the american view of wine is. The american view is you go to Napa Valley, you go up and down the highway, you make a lot of money in your career, and you buy a winery and you get to live this lifestyle. And it's the next step of a lifestyle instead of in Europe and in France. And particularly, it is the lifestyle. You're here every day, you live it, you breathe it. And it takes this passion to do that. And you started with your father. I started with my grandfather. Your grandfather? Yes. I think it's more than a lifestyle. It's a mission. And it's something you do by passion. And with passion, you can never stop working. You can work seven days a week and 365 days a year because you always have an eye on what's going on in the field, what the weather going to be, what are the challenges you're going to have to deal with. So it's a never ending process. It is also a

9:09 lifestyle, a beautiful lifestyle. And at Le Pape, you had a little bit of this french art de vivre that we are having lunch and dinners every day here with beautiful food, fresh ingredients from the market, matching all the wines we are going to serve at the table. So it is true that we are very privileged, but we are also fully dedicated to our vineyards because we do wine, not just for today, but we do wine for the next generation, for people who are going to drink it in many, many years and enjoy the fruit of our work. It doesn't feel like work, does it?

9:53 I think if you love your work and if you do it by passion, you never have the feeling you're working. It's a unique product, though, and I've had a hard time defining this or getting a definition. Maybe there isn't one because there is no other. And it hit me this morning, there's no other product in the world that requires a. Is so slow. You only get one chance a year to do it and to test what your philosophy is going to be about that vintage. And there's no product that brings people together like this product. Here we are traveling the world with my group, and it's focused on visiting places like Obaee and learning more about that culture. And I can't think of another product that feels like that. A stilo. A pen doesn't do that. Paper doesn't do that. A semiconductor doesn't do that. My iPhone, I don't gather over my iPhone, but we gather over wine. And I don't know if it's because it's a conduit to the soul or the soil or what. I think, first of all, wine is part of civilization.

10:57 Everywhere you have a civilization, you will have wine. It's also. You're mentioning a stilo. It can be yogurt. It's very different from any industrial product, because even if we want to make the best wine as possible every year, at the end of the year, we will do only what is possible to do, because we are dependent from the weather. So nature will decide or God will decide of what we are able to do or not. So we just have to adapt permanently. And this adaptation makes our job fascinating, because every year is a new story. Every year we write a new history on the white page. And we learn from scratch every year. Our job changed incredibly in the last 25 years. And you're right. I mean, in the end, you are sharing this product with people who love food, who love art, who have many passions.

12:02 And when you have a great wine on a table, the discussions are always remarkable. It's pretty amazing. And I thank my father for that. Exposed me to it young. We had a wine shop. I stocked the shelves. I was learning then and coming on a trip like this and learning more. After 35 years of selling wine, I still learned every time I sit down with people like you to understand more about what we're doing. It sounds like to me there's a certain humility to what you just said, because you don't get to decide what's going to happen because of the weather. And God gets to tell you what we're going to produce and you get to do the best you can with it. And that sort of is humbling experience, right?

12:46 Unlike the wines we find at the supermarkets that are on a formula, we're going to add so much sugar, so much acid, we're going to make it taste like it did last year. I understand those are important vintages to have for people to get used to wine. But in this case, and in most cases, there's a certain humility required to do this. I love this word of humility, because you know where it comes from. Humility comes from humus in Latin, and it means earth. Oh, I did not know that. Wow. So. And all of our work is to look at our vineyards, look at the 90% of our work is outside in the field. And to make a great wine, you do it outside. Then you may have a beautiful cellar with lots of technology at the service of your terroir.

13:39 But we all are focused on our ground, on our soil and our subsoil, on the plant which is on it. And the many, many number of hours of work for each plant. Our soil or vineyard is low, so it keeps us humble. And humility is really a key word for sure. It's almost like a privilege. It's almost a privilege to be able to experience that and to manage that and to become part of that culture. It is a privilege and it's a mission, because my job would be to transmit it to the next generation. We are at the service of our vineyard for a few years, few decades.

14:26 We inherit something from the past. We have to take care of this patrimoine of all vines, and we plant the oldest vines into new vines in order that the next generation can also benefit from something which has been regenerated. And yes, it is a privilege, it's a duty, and it's an honor to serve a terroir like obey. Is there another generation? So after. There's always another generation. My son is 15 years old and the Wilmers family owning it right now. There is the second generation at the head of it right now. Congratulations. That's great. I didn't have a generation. I have three daughters. They're beautiful daughters. And I told you about one of them. But the wine trade in California, on the Internet, we're retailers, wholesalers, you know, it's gotten so difficult, you know, managing the Internet sales, you know, 50 regulations of 50 states. I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to hand it off, so I was. We got two generations under our belt and then it moved on to another group. But I was honored to be part of it and to participate in it.

15:47 And you're right, you can't. It never leaves you like I'm here today because I love talking about it and hearing the philosophy about it. Even though I don't sell it every day anymore. I just love learning more and more as I can. So you just got done with on premiere. I think for the listeners we should. They've probably seen it around on the Internet, they probably saw it on LinkedIn, they probably saw it on Facebook or Instagram. That this idea of en premier, which, if you would give an explanation from the winery side of things, what happens during on premiere. So what happens is that we just showed last month, the last baby, the 23 vintage to the whole world. Everybody came and tasted and made its own opinion. And I think the quality is beautiful about this vintage. And people were.

16:38 It gave a smile to everyone and everybody went back home thinking, wow, this is another great vintage of Bordeaux. How many people came through Obais? A few thousand. Really? Yes. In few days we welcome more than almost 3000 people. So that's a lot of people. But it's very energetic. You know, you get this energy and the fact that Bordeaux interests so many people around the world is just fascinating. And it was great to be able to show the level of quality of his vintage. And since few weeks we have the releases going on. So every day, a few chateau release their prize, and the consumer is able to buy our wines in advance in order to benefit from a good deal.

17:24 Actually, the wine will be cheaper than what it will be when they find it in a few years on the shelves. And they can also choose the format they want to buy. So imagine you have a new baby or a grandchild, or if you get married and you want to get your wine in. Magnums, double magnums, double. Nine pound, 10oz. Exactly. So you can select your format. And that's something you should always do to celebrate later on. Sitting here is an honor for me. There's few women in this industry.

18:06 I was talking to you earlier in the vineyard, about in America, the movement for women in wine is a real movement. It's got a lot of traction. They're saying that now 25% of the graduates of enology school are women, but in the executive ranks, we're at seven or 8%. And there's a strong sense of changing that, moving the needle for that, I was very honored. I had an intern here in my office, and her job was to write the notes for all the podcasts I was doing with young women. Winemakers inspired her to go to school. So she's at Cornell University, getting her eenology degree today, and I feel good about that. I'm happy we're able to enlighten a young person to the value of a glass of wine. But in France, is it a structured movement? Because your position in this company is pretty rare.

19:08 I mean, we can find the right ones. We'll talk about a couple of the historical women in this business. But is it rare right now for somebody in your position as a female? I think it's a natural movement, and it's more and more women joining the industry in every field can be in the vineyard, can be in the cellar, it can be selling wine, or even managing an estate. So when I had this opportunity more than 25 years ago, it was thanks to the Odas of an American, Bob Willmers, who bought the estate to my family, and who trusted a young girl. But that was very new and very audacious at that time. And I always considered that to be a woman was an advantage. You are seated next to the most interesting guys, and then you listen and you learn. And today you have more and more women everywhere. I believe also in complementarity. And at Aubai, what is very interesting is that in the field, we have 50% of men, 50% of women in the cellar, the same, in the offices, the same. Although I'm against parity. I think you have jobs where men are better, jobs where women are better. But just by luck or by the belief of complementarity, we are 50 50 everywhere in the company. Well, it's by skill set, by

20:38 the fact that you can do the job. We don't care. We're just going to hire the best people for the job. You know, the woman I mentioned earlier when we started the show, it was a true story. She came in to sell me wine. I thought, this young lady's never going to make it. And she was very tough, still a very pleasant young lady. And we have a great relationship post our careers because of this work she did. But I thought, man, this is a dog eat dog world. And she tells the story about how difficult the latter rungs were for her career to path where she went. I mean, she really, really worked hard. And I truly believe the success of my company was partially on her back because she produced for me when I needed her to do. But you wrote in a previous interview he had the audacity to hire a girl.

21:27 So we have to give him credit for having audacity. Right? At the same time, that's very american. Yes, that's true. But there are women throughout history. I mean, Madame Clicquot was, she was one sharp young woman who created a market for herself in the russian world of champagne in England and cutting edge ideas. Maileon Lanka song who we talked about, who was at Pichon Longueville. I mean, unbelievable fortitude. Do you think it takes more fortitude for a woman to accelerate in this industry than it does maybe in France or in England? I mean, compared to the United States? I think it's a natural movement, you know, and things are happening because it should happen. But no, I think in the history of obey, you had amazing women in the 18th century, and not just for a few years, but for 30 years. One woman was running au Bailey in a very sharp, really? At Obaili. Yes. And you also had women taking care of the vineyard during the war, if you're thinking of the war vintages. And yesterday, a great american friend from San Francisco brought back to obey a 1918 bottle that we shared during lunch. And that was so moving because last year of the first world War and the wine, 106 years old, Washington picking it, was alive. It was, it was

22:57 just a bubble of incredible aromas. And the wine was telling a story, you know, and the bottle, which has been traveling the world during maybe a century, was just coming back here. That was quite an adventure. Also, at the beginning of the week. This week. That is really fun. Yeah, well, you think about that. That kind of goes back to the earlier conversation about, wow, what is so special about wine? Here? We're celebrating the homecoming, an old vintage. And the wine was probably made by women. Yeah. Oh, really? So that's. Wow. At the end of the first world War, you didn't have many men left. So the history of au Bailey goes back to where. The history of Obaili goes back to probably 800 years. Because we have.

23:42 It's very difficult to find written proofs of the existence of vinesen before 13 something. But we have found lots of written documents showing us what was obey from the 13th, 14th century. Before that, we know the vines were existing, but we don't know exactly to who it belonged, etcetera. So it's a parisian banker called Firmin Lebay, who fell in love with the existing vines and gave his name to the estate in 1630. And since 1630, the estate stayed the same. Superficies, which is very unique in Bordeaux. And then you had always very charismatic owners, strong personalities.

24:29 In the 18th century, you even had the mayor of Bordeaux, mister Laforet de Montbadon. And then came an incredible man called Alcide bellot de Meniere. He was the hero of a novel called Heirlo des Grandieres, and his nickname was the king of Vintners. And he bought a bay in 1872. He built this house, which is completely 19th century. And he plants the vineyard with his own recipe, a fil blend, having one 6th of Merlot, sorry, 112 of Merlot, one 12th of Cabernet franc, one 12th of Petit Verdot, same thing of Carbonaire and Malbec, and 712 of Cabernet Sauvignon. And we still have what he planted, 120. That's amazing. Yes. So the real field blend, I mean, at that time, he was probably picking at the same time and crushing altogether and making. It's pretty unusual these days. Well, no, actually, it was the way Bordeaux was doing the blend wines at that time, and we all forgot that, but the blend was done in the field. So it's actually one of the last plots around Bordeaux, which is still done in that way. And so you don't. We were talking about it outside. You now try to pick the varietals at different points of ripeness, so that each cluster is ripe depending on what grape it is. But there's something interesting that hit me when you were discussing that. That is, even though you're picking them at different times, and so it might look like it's

26:00 just another plot. There has to be some kind of value to the idea that these vines are growing with each other, even though they're different grapes. There's an influence between them that would change those grapes than if they're on their own. There are two things, I think. The complexity it brings by the fact that it's planted together. And there is something happening which definitely brings complexity. And there is the fact that they are very old. And what is fascinating with this very old vineyard is that they are able to handle everything. They don't have disease. They always produce regularly. They don't produce very much, but they are so consistent. They are always, always responding. How do you say that? Delivering.

26:50 So it's quite fascinating to see that those old vines have a strength and a power which is just incredible. And the wine we get from those vines is just so full, so complete, so intense, very deep. So it's the heart of our blend every single year. So you start with those that plot. How many hectares is the field blend? Four. So about ten acres. You start with that as the basic part of your cuve. And then you add and subtract from that to create a. Well, it's so intense and complex that on its own, it's almost too powerful. So you have to add, you know, and that the fascinating thing of making a blend, it's like being a perfumer and create something. And you take 10% of that, which will add a little bit of lightness, 10% of that, which will bring the floral aspect of the wine. And then you build it all about to keep the same style. And that is something which is very dear to obey, is that we never follow the fashion. We never go in too many different rows, but we always try to keep our style, because fashion change, but style lasts. Oh, I like that. Fashion changes, but style lasts. I'm going to write that down. I'm

28:21 going to put that down. And that's part of the conversation. But before we. Before we get there, and I wrote it down so I don't forget this, the complexity of your wines is not overshadowed by the fact that the complexity of running this organization. In other words, we have this wonderful product. It's so romantic. We put it in the bottle, we share it, and we converse over. We taste the 1918 and we fall in love again. But that takes a lot of work, and there's a lot of moving parts to doing this. Here we are in this wonderful chateau. You've got a tasting room. I saw a group go in. We have our tasting after this, you've got a seller. I mean, these are a lot of moving parts. How does one manage that leading to this? You said there was an intellectual complexity that you learned at school that allowed you to be able to step in and do this role. What does that mean exactly? Well, I think to run a place like that, you need a diverse competence. You need to be able to understand what's going on in the field and also understand how the weather works. You need to know how to vinify wine. You need to have a certain charisma to lead a team and make them give the best of themselves every single day.

29:42 Because the great strength of obey is a wonderful team working by passion, you know, everywhere. And I'm very, very proud of our team. But you also need to be able to meet people from all over the world. We are selling our wine in 80 different countries, so happy to see american friends. But we also have people coming from Asia, from England, from all over Europe. And that the fascinating thing is that we are able to travel and meet great people. So the way I'm running this company is that I believe in the. In the collective competence. And everybody brings things, and we are permanently analyzing what we are doing, and we are always doubting, how can we do better, how can we do, how can we go further, higher, faster? Because the world is changing, our environment is changing. And you should note, keep or stay on set recipes. You have to adapt permanently. We also believe in the japanese philosophy of Kaizen, you know, the permanent evolution, adaptation. And that's extremely important. And that the way you're making great wines, because if you have in mind what you're going to. The way you're going to cook next time with certain product, or the way you're going to harvest, you're wrong. Because

31:15 things are changing around you. So you have to have a fresh mentality, a fresh spirit, and invent, create every day. That's the humility of it all, isn't that you have to. Your ideas of the future are already wrong before you start them, right? Exactly. Yes, but that's, you know, that's. You said very eloquently and very articulate. You articulated that concept very well. It's easier said than done. We have people involved, which is always, you know, always an issue. You've got the weather, you've got the. All the different pieces that are moving, and you have to be able to balance those. You went to Sorbonne, you studied nothing that dealt with wine. And maybe that's the value of your education later. I studied wine later. Yeah. So you studied economics, and so you have a bird's eye view of some of this that's going on. So this is a part of the wine business that frustrates me. I wish it was a product that transcended profit and that we only got to make the things that we are expressing exactly what we cannot express. But we are in a business.

32:24 You know, the Ottany group out of the Rhone Valley, it's fine wine think tank. Nicole rollet, I think, is the president, and I had that conversation with them, and it's like the consumer has always driven the wine business. Let's take Madame Clicquot. She made a slightly sweeter cuvet for the Russians than she did for the English, that kind of thing. And obviously, very important. But when you talk about style, doesn't. Style is permanent, and fashion comes and goes. Are we talking about the. The makeup of the wine, the, let's say, the sugar content? Are we talking about how we market the wine when we're trying to evolve the business? Are we maintaining a very straight focus on the best wine we can make from the terroir?

33:13 And then the innovation comes in getting it to the customer, or is the innovation in figuring out what the customer wants? I think you have to respect your terroir first and to give the chance to the terroir to express itself, because what is extremely important, more than anything, is the identity. If you lose your identity, you lose your customer. Why do people drink, obey? It's because they love the style of elegance. Fine tannins, very silky tannins, nothing aggressive. Something which is built to last forever. So the longevity of the wine. And if you are not true or respectful to your own identity, you lose it. You lose your customers. So it's very important both to respect your terroir and to keep your style.

34:14 Wow, that's complicated. Respectively keep your style. So that. And I've learned this more. I've gotten closer to understanding this because of this trip only. And that is, you've got to keep that steady eye on what Obaee is and what it means to the consumer and the consumer. And this is my true belief in the wine business, comes to obeyee and learns and then understands it. Not that we decide to make something we think they're going to like. Yes, because also, we are making wine for today. Today, we have to make the best wine we can do today with the technology of today, the weather of today, with the terroir we cherish. But most of our wines will be drunk in 1015 2050 years. So if you are trying to follow the taste of the consumer of today, you're wrong.

35:13 You're completely wrong. You know, Aubai is above that. The top wines of Bordeaux are above following the consumer. We have to think further. And for the long term, I think. As such a refreshing. And I'm not going to say that the american wine industry is not doing that as well. There's certainly vineyards in Napa, Sonoma, central Coast, that follow that philosophy. It has to be. But at the same time, the most popular wines in the industry are these sort of formula wines. They follow some kind of structure of a palatable character, a consumer driven palette, and it's fine. I think we need those to bring people to wine that otherwise weren't drinking wine.

36:05 But it ebbs and flows, because by. Experience, I know when a wine is great, it makes unanimity. I can tell you when you have a great wine, usually there is a silence around the table, because there is emotion. And this emotion is created by the fact you just did the best you can do. You have a great wow. You respect it. And then you deliver an amazing wine and it always makes unanimity. That's so fun. Is that. But do you think that part of the aristocracy of wine and the people, that. And it's a very important part of the consumerism is everybody looks at wine, particularly utwine, that, oh, you guys are snobs. You talk about, you say words that you don't. We don't understand. And I don't understand when you say cedar box and leather. Sometimes I think we propagate our own aristocracy around the wine industry. But on the flip side, that's what it's about. It's the understanding of this complexity and saying, wow, I may not be able to define it yet, but, man, I sure taste it. Yeah. I think what is the most important thing is, do I love it or not?

37:23 Does it speak to me or nothing? When I'm tasting in 1918, or at the beginning of my career, I had in Miami, an american collector served me in a blind tasting, obey 64 from Magnum. I didn't know what it was, but I put my nose in the glass and I knew I was at home. And then I had the feeling my great grandfather was talking to me, although he was already not anymore on this planet. That's really cool. And then I had the feeling I was transported into space. So it's about an emotion, and a great wine provides an emotion. It can just make you think of something you had this year. It can just provide a moment where you feel, wow, this is a unique moment.

38:12 So happy to be here. My family, my friends, and this wine is bringing something more, you know, to the conversation, to the spirits of experiential. We were in Paris about, I think it was about ten years ago, and just a regular tourist cafe. I ordered the quiche and they put it in front of me, and my wife looked at me, she goes, what's wrong with you? I said, nothing. I said, this took me back 40 years, because my mother was a very good cook and she made the same Tyle quiche. And I just took one smell and I go, I haven't smelled this for. Since my childhood. And wine does that all the time, if you have a proper glass of wine. And we should educate young people to drink together, to share, to remember that when they open the bottle and you're not there anymore, they will think of you, because that the way, if you keep talking about people and having something in common through the wine, that keeps a memory alive. You know, I taught my son in laws about champagne in Obaee, and now it's costing me too much money.

39:22 But the conversation, too, that's going on the Internet about the language of wine and innovation. And wine, and I don't mean innovation in how we manufacture, because everything you do here is to produce the best product you can from what you're given. I think the innovation they're talking about is either marketing or consumerism. And then the language. And interesting conversation with Monsieur Clouet from Cheval Blanc, and that was. Yeah, you know, your father and my father described wines differently than we do today. And Michael Broadbent described wines in his generation different than we do today. And maybe Harry Waugh. And then you just keep going backwards to know that maybe that's what they mean. Because I still have yet to understand what changing the language of wine means, because if we change it to something else, then somebody else isn't going to understand it either. So I'm not sure. Have you followed this or heard people talking about changing the language of wine? Yes, but before that, the taste of wine changed.

40:25 Well, that's true, too. The wines my great grandfather did is not the wine we are doing today. There is always the identity of the estate, which is there, but we are working in a very different way. And I remember when my grandfather tasted 2005, he told me, God, this is probably the best wine we ever made. And I said, come on, you did beautiful vintages, like 61, 64 and so many others, 89, 90. And he said, yes, but nature gave it to us all. And today you have nature, but you have the way you're working with so much care, precision, technology that able, that helped you do wines which are just spectacular. And it is true that in Bordeaux, we did a series of more than 20 vintages which are just exceptional. So the taste of wine is also changing. And all of our jobs changed incredibly in the last 20 years. We just welcomed a few months ago, our first robot in the vines. And the new seller we have is a concentrate of innovation at the service of tradition. And you're right in distribution, marketing, everything. We have so many more ways of talking to people who love wine and who love our wine. It's fascinating, but it's

41:57 at every step that things are changing, and changing in a very fast way. Very fast. Like I told you, my business relied on the Internet to sell wine, which we did for. My first website was 1997. I sent 33 million emails in 2022. So just to sell, and my wines were $15 to $18. They weren't expensive wine. And so I'm trying to figure out, when they talk about innovation, you're innovating on the processing side and the experiential side is we were almost out of time. It's unbelievable. But I'm not sure what they mean by innovation in that. I guess they're like, for instance, I don't think putting your camera on a bottle of 19 crimes and getting a moving character is innovation in the wine business. That's just sizzle marketing stuff. I mean, who cares about that? But the idea of innovation, maybe they mean what you're doing in the. So I'm not getting anywhere with this part of the conversation because I'm not sure what they mean by this, because I think wine is such a romantic and experiential product, and maybe I'll just move into that because of my experience on the Internet and because the Internet has created bargain shoppers. Now, let's say, I know I want Obaee 2005 because of this conversation. I can go to the Internet and buy it, right? But that's not the experience of the Obaee, that's because of the price.

43:29 But if I really. I really think the wine business is going back to those days. My father was the president of a Les Amis devant chapter in California, and they had dinners. They exposed the people to wine in its infancy in California in the seventies, when we just started, so to speak. And I really believe, from a marketing standpoint, what you do, which is traveling the world, going to the different expos? Pouring the glasses, I mean, shocking. You were in LA, pouring your own wines is really going backwards to the days of. I had this experience with Veronique. That's important part of my appreciation for the brand.

44:11 Do you sense that? I love that, actually, I love to be close to people who will buy and drink our wine, because it's fabulous to be here at Obaya alone in your vineyard, or trying to best the best wine ever for the generation to come. But when you have the opportunity to meet the people who love what you're doing, to exchange about it, to share the passion, I think it's great. I love it. It's a reward. That's a great way to look at it. I think it's critical now the wine industry is in a bad place, generally, worldwide. I'm very happy you had a wonderful elm premier because people came and you experienced it. There are other wineries in this region that didn't have such success during the Elm premier. But in general, wine consumption is down. The millennials don't do it as much. The Gen Zs, nobody knows what they're doing, their drink. What I don't understand about those people is they talk about organic and biodynamic and they want fresh food and they go to whole foods and they go to these markets, but then they drink stuff like white claw, which is full of artificial ingredients and bubbly.

45:24 You know, merd. The way we make wine in France is that you have a rule, and rule number one is that everything is forbidden. You can't irrigate, you can't protect your vines, you can't add anything in your wine. So that's a very important. Is that Bon de France? I mean, all the France, all over. France, we respect the character of the appellation de. So if you are not respecting it, you are declassified. So that's something to keep in mind. When you make wine tastings with wine from other wine regions in the world, it's a very different way of cultivating and producing. It's interesting that you said that, because this group we're with today, obviously, we live in California. There's very popular brands, and many entry level consumers will buy those brands because of their popularity. And there may be a sense of aristocracy if you have one of these brands. But now they're tasting structured, complex, terroir driven wines. Ever since we started on the right bank, and the comment was made last night at dinner at Lipop, which was, I'm starting to understand this idea of acid fruit, and sensing the terroir. And we had a wine yesterday at the La Lum de Pomeran, and the gentleman said,

46:55 there's iron ore in the ground that's creating this character. And all of a sudden you go, bing. I get it now. You know, that flavor makes sense, what I'm tasting. So it's fascinating. But we're. Can you believe we're at 48 minutes already? I hope we can do this again. We haven't even touched on. Look, I got three pages more notes to go over, but it's been a fascinating time to sit with you and have this understanding of Obaee and your career and the things that it takes to be, I'm not going to say successful. To be recognized in this industry. It's not easy to do. Well. Thank you, Paul. I enjoyed speaking with you and always a pleasure to be. Cheers. Are you coming to LA soon? I know you got a lot of travel ahead of you, but yes, pretty. For sure in the coming months. I always loved LA with MMD or.

47:49 MMD or just to show Bailee for a few tastings. I hope you stay in touch and we can regroup. With great pleasure. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.