Napa’s Lost Magic: How Commerce Ruined Wine and What Jessica Kogan Wants to Fix

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One of the joys of my work is that I get to

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meet hundreds, if not thousands, of people

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every year in store, talking to them all the time

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about what it is that they enjoy

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about liquor, adult beverage, wine. And

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when it relates to wine currently, and you can see this in

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stores, there is just such a disconnect

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between What the confidence a

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person feels around wine as it relates to the

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cost, as it relates to the privilege.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine

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Talks with Paul Kaye.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and we are in studio today. Actually,

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we're in a new studio in Hermosa Beach, about to have a conversation with Jessica

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Cogan, an old friend, of the show and mover and shaker in the industry.

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I'm gonna read something that ChatGPT wrote about her. Oh

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my goodness. Oh no. Oh no. Today's guest,

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you know, you're like a regular, so it's not really a guest, but— It can't

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be accurate. ChatGPT isn't accurate. Today's

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guest has spent her career where brand, technology,

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commerce, and the human behavior collide. Jessica Cogan

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helped build Cameron Hughes Wines, led major direct-to-consumer growth at

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Vintage Wine Estates, advised brands through Connect the Dots Collective,

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and now leads HSP Brands, turning retail tasting into

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measurable consumer insight. I should have asked for like 50 words, not like

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100, right? So anyway, she understands that beverage success is

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not simply about what's in the bottle. It's about who discovers it, why they

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trust it, and how a brand earns relevance. Okay, so that's the

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romantic side of Jessica Cogan. And it's so good to see you again.

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It is so good to see you. Seriously, it's been, it's,

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it's been a beat and you are doing amazing work. I have to tell

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you, I love your podcast. I listen to you all the time.

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And I think we need people in this industry who are like

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champions right now. Well, it's an interesting problem,

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uh, storytelling. And I, you know, I wanna dovetail off of something you were just

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saying because I don't hear it all the time. Uh, we talk about Napa, we

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talk about going there. Most of the times we're talking about how expensive it's gotten

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and the price of tastings and all the other things that go along with

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commerce side of it, but you were talking about sort of this sort of

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revelation to you. You've always worked there. Yeah. And all

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of a sudden you saw it. It's just,

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so it has been a place of work for me for many,

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many years, you know, back and forth. I would spend time

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here, but it was really always in that context of

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just constant work. And I just decided to

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to spend— I've never lived in Napa and I just

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decided to get a place for a few months to live here. Wow.

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And I just, it is, this place is

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magical. I genuinely walk

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outside my little Airbnb, I

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am in this just little lovely area that's in

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East Napa County. So it's, you know, it's not in St. Helena, it's not in

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Yountville, it's not in, you know, the traditional winery

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wine tasting areas and

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just the beauty of this place, the view of the mountains,

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the gorgeous weather, all of the

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flowers and the fauna that grow. I mean, just

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being here is such a joy.

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And yeah, it genuinely

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is magical. It is magical. It is a magical place.

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You think that the, you know, the Brother Timothys and the Louis Martinis and the

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Mondavis of the world, even before that, uh, the Hess Estates

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group, uh, saw this and, and that's kind of how it all

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started? Oh my God, Paul, that is like

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literally what I was thinking about. I'm not literally,

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I'm not kidding. Like 2 days ago when I was looking at the

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stars, I was at Lake Berryessa and I'm just like,

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they knew. They knew. Yeah. They knew.

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They knew what a gift this

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place is. And, um, I just, I,

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I just have to say, like, being a person that's worked in the industry,

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I've always— there's been more of a transactional relationship.

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To be here is— and just to

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take a beat and a pause Holy cow.

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Wow. I wonder if that's what happened. I wonder if

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we just lost track of that. I'm trying to find a piece of paper.

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And it turned to commerce because

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this is one of the issues. It's not the prime issue I want to talk

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to you about, but this is a huge issue in the trade.

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And maybe it was the romantic side of wine that brought all

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these people to Napa and it turned into commerce and we had to make a

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dollar and The land got so expensive and you couldn't afford to make wine that

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was less than $200 a bottle, and it just kind of got away from us.

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And I, I, I think it has. I mean, I will tell you, I

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mean, one of the joys of my work is that I get to

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meet hundreds, if not thousands, of people

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every year in store, talking to them all the time

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about what it is that, that they enjoy about

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liquor or adult beverage. wine. And

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when it relates to wine currently, and you can see this in

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stores, there is just such a disconnect

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between what the confidence a

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person feels around wine as it relates to the

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cost, as it relates to the privilege. Mm-hmm.

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And I am here in Napa in a place that is completely affordable

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that anybody can enjoy. And I think

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that we really do have to get back to basics. But for the

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wine industry, I think that in general, there's, there's so much

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to offer. And I have so many comments for you because you go,

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you, I mean, your dad was the original with, you know, the wine

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club and really trying to get wine to the people. And

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I will tell you, the people do want wine. They just, the way

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the industry is meeting them is there's a disconnect

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and there's just a disconnect. Let's back up. it up a little bit

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since you came from— was it— you were at Donna Karan, right? I

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was at Donna Karan. That's where I started my career. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I was having this conversation the other day where, um, I've seen it

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so many times where somebody comes from another industry, um, they

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try to apply, uh, techniques and, and

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ideas from an industry that has nothing to do with it. But you made this

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transition rather successfully into the I think you went right into Cameron Hughes Wines

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after that, right? Or— Well, I went, I, after Don and Karen, I was

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primarily really in, I was at, I did digital design and

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development. I mean, I led teams building big

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websites, building schwab.com and like the first transactional

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sites and all that stuff way back when. Isn't that crazy what's

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happening with AI? Crazy. Oh my God. That's a whole other thing. Yeah. We're not

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gonna get there now, but, but I just, the reason I brought that up is

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I'm working with the group in Armenia that he's, one of the most famous rug

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manufacturers in the world, luxury rugs. And he happens to be

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a relative through marriage through Sandra. But he

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had this amazing vision when it came to the luxury brand of

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carpets and rugs. Yeah. And he's trying to apply some of this stuff to

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the wine trade and just, he's not, it's not clicking. Yeah. And

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I'll tell you about it offline about what he wants to do. And you'll, you

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know, you'll just say, wow, that's not gonna work. Or it's gonna take a long

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time to work. Let's put it that way. So how did that

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happen for you though? That you took stuff from Donna Karan? Yeah.

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And brought it to the wine trade. Did you notice that this was a

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different animal altogether? I mean, the thing about

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this is I actually think fashion and wine share

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so many similarities, right? In many ways, when a

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person buys a bottle of wine, it's an expression of who they are

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on a basic level. And it's the same idea

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in fashion. When you buy a certain label

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that, and, you know, obviously you want it to look good on you, you want

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to feel good, you want to connect with it, but also you want

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to say like the name of the brand. Mm-hmm. And I

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think in wine, it is somewhat similar as well. It

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is, fashion is storytelling. Wine is

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storytelling. Fashion is a little bit different in that

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you need clothing to Go outside. You cannot

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walk around naked. Wine is a choice.

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You know, it's an it's an absolute. It's a discretionary item.

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And so, for me, the connection really was: How do you

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tell the story? What is your point of differentiation?

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And where again, they're the same.

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Luxury goes in a little bit of a different way. Wine goes

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in a little bit of a different way with. with what I would

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consider luxury, but where again, they share similarities

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always. And this is the same for fashion, whether it's

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couture or it's mid-level.

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It all centers around the conversation with

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the customer. Yeah. You cannot get away

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from it. Like, it is so boring to

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so many people in the industry But everything

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at the end of the day, when it is an item, a

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luxury item, a mid-tier item, or you're asking somebody

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to give money for something that they don't necessarily

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need, you have to help them understand it.

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You have to help explain it. You have to connect with

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them. And it is the simple art

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of human connection. And I think we got away from

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that. I think— oh my God, drifted huge,

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uh, a pathway away. I mean, I,

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again, like, I will just go just as simple. This is what I

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like to think about it. I think how I think about it is, you know,

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at stores, grocery, like just the off-premise universe,

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um, sampling is, is something that is just like you

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know, yeah, it's like on my checklist. Like,

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no, that is a strategic privilege.

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Mm-hmm. That is a privilege to go

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and talk to customers, to connect with them,

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to have conversations with them. I think as it relates

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to wine, we're like, oh, come to Napa, come to

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Sonoma, come to Sebastopol, come to, you know, the Central

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Coast, come down to all of the places that we have wineries.

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How about just come to my local store and taste my

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product with people that I like, that

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live down the street from me, and that are like part of my community

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that I actually don't get to see that much anymore because we're, we all work

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from home. That's interesting. We had this, we

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touched on this last time we spoke, but it's developed further now that you're with

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HSP Brands. But part of this, and I had,

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I went to a dinner, was it last night? No, night before last, a

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young girl I sent to Château Haut-Bailly for an internship.

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And she was asked by Haut-Bailly to do this event at her home, which she

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invited relatives and people that could buy. But that wasn't the, it wasn't a Tupperware

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party. It was just exposure to the brand. Yeah. And I thought this was so

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interesting that a château in Bordeaux would reach out

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to a young girl in America. And, and just host a

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dinner just to have those conversations. It

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wasn't like, you know, if we sell 2 cases tonight, we're going to be able

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to go to Hawaii. None of that. It was just prepare dinner. We'll

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invite a representative from the winery. And it turns out that his

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job now is really expanding the

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experience of the brand. So what happened?

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The internet, did that drive all these experiences

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away? And Coupon codes and promotion codes and,

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and, uh, you know, Google Ads. Did that just clobber this

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experience? I mean, I, I think that digital has

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been a really— I mean, I think you both, you and I both agree in

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so many ways, like digital has democratized so much, right?

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And it's made information accessible and that's been wonderful.

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And yes, e-commerce ha— you know, had its day and

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like the couponing and promotions and whatnot. It's just that

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what I believe, you know, digital is really,

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digital's not going, is never going away, and it does

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provide important cues. And maybe that

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cue has changed, the cue of, hey,

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go to your local store to go try my product. Yeah. 'Cause it's

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right there. Maybe that's the new cue.

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And, and I, If not maybe, I know it's the

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cue that every wine company should be

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doing, which is go to the local store and go

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try the product. Because we know that you've

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tried it before because the data's there. Or we know that

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somebody in your cohort or in your life, in your

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world, just by seeing on Facebook that they're in your Facebook

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friends, That you've tried this wine before, or that you're in, you at

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least have some exposure to it. The product is in

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the store down the street. Why wouldn't you have them try it?

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I think that's the social. I think that's where social plays out the rest

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of this thing. Now I'm gonna go back to my, you talked about my father

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being the OG in the wine club business. He is the OG. It started because

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it, it grew. He was struggling with it. In fact, just down the

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road here in Redondo Beach. He had 400 members and he was just trying to

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make a go of it. And somebody told him to go to the fair, the

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LA County Fair. Mm-hmm. And he got in for free, blah, blah, blah. Long story

230
00:14:23,290 --> 00:14:26,830
short, and he doubled his membership in 10 days. And all of a

231
00:14:26,830 --> 00:14:30,490
sudden, that experiential reaction from a customer, shaking

232
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:34,290
their hand, talking about the stories, showing them the newsletter, putting it

233
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in their hands. Didn't have to taste back then. You couldn't, you could now.

234
00:14:38,530 --> 00:14:42,270
But, uh, for, from 1984 to 2007,

235
00:14:43,386 --> 00:14:46,624
That was the driving force of the Wine of the Month Club. And I think

236
00:14:46,624 --> 00:14:50,263
it has everything to do with that experience and that handshake and that conversation.

237
00:14:51,081 --> 00:14:54,655
Absolutely. Like, I mean, and I think, you know, there are

238
00:14:54,719 --> 00:14:58,454
so many people that are still in wine clubs, right? That, I mean, there's still

239
00:14:58,551 --> 00:15:02,077
like good participation in wine clubs. I haven't looked at the stats

240
00:15:02,077 --> 00:15:05,556
recently as it relates specifically to wine, but I

241
00:15:05,604 --> 00:15:09,339
certainly can tell you, I mean, we know so

242
00:15:09,371 --> 00:15:13,074
much is transforming in our industry in front of our eyes right now. So

243
00:15:13,074 --> 00:15:16,722
much is changing, but the one one thing that is true and

244
00:15:17,141 --> 00:15:20,928
that will not change, and that has become ever

245
00:15:20,928 --> 00:15:23,490
more pressing as we see so

246
00:15:23,699 --> 00:15:27,186
much everyone looking

247
00:15:27,379 --> 00:15:30,609
for experiences, experiential connection,

248
00:15:30,978 --> 00:15:34,828
Mm-hmm. is to utilize the spaces

249
00:15:34,958 --> 00:15:38,096
that are available to you to connect with

250
00:15:38,356 --> 00:15:41,940
consumers. Now, I would say, you know, in my

251
00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:45,600
universe, for us, it's really like we go to

252
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,280
stores, we do over 30,000 tastings a year

253
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,080
in off— What? In off-prem. Yeah. And it's only

254
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,680
wine or beer and spirits? No, no, no. We do all. Okay. We do

255
00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,200
all of liquor. So we do everything. 30,000 tastings a

256
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,020
year. 30,000. That's about 1,000 a month. That's,

257
00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:07,300
um, I actually calculated for you. So it's, it's

258
00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:12,993
900,000, almost a million conversations.

259
00:16:15,085 --> 00:16:17,857
Wow. That's a huge number. That, you know, you put it in that context, what

260
00:16:17,857 --> 00:16:21,532
a, what a metric. And it's in the physical

261
00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:23,955
store where people are

262
00:16:25,289 --> 00:16:28,824
voting with their wallet, right? They're, they're

263
00:16:28,824 --> 00:16:32,616
sharing stories with you and you learn so much about them.

264
00:16:33,336 --> 00:16:37,120
But they're also converting right there, right? It's, it's,

265
00:16:37,184 --> 00:16:40,919
they're, they're, they're walking out with wine or

266
00:16:41,608 --> 00:16:44,814
tequila or beer, an RTD.

267
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,143
Not always, most of the time. But what the,

268
00:16:49,463 --> 00:16:52,622
the information we're getting about sentiment,

269
00:16:53,070 --> 00:16:56,758
about how cons— how consumers, how people

270
00:16:56,758 --> 00:17:00,076
are thinking, what they want. It's like gold.

271
00:17:00,910 --> 00:17:04,292
And it really makes a very, like,

272
00:17:04,933 --> 00:17:08,652
important point to our, like, from, to me, to the

273
00:17:08,765 --> 00:17:12,452
industry. The message is, like, the

274
00:17:12,548 --> 00:17:16,107
best thing you can be doing right now, whether it's with us or,

275
00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:20,210
like, anyone else, stop focus grouping,

276
00:17:20,964 --> 00:17:24,779
get into stores, and start talking to consumers.

277
00:17:25,934 --> 00:17:28,790
You know, that's interesting. That is where you will learn

278
00:17:29,528 --> 00:17:33,251
what they want and what to do. The

279
00:17:33,299 --> 00:17:35,978
focus group idea when we were in college, you know, that was a lot, but

280
00:17:35,978 --> 00:17:39,540
it came with— in the textbook, it came with the downfalls and the pitfalls, which

281
00:17:39,588 --> 00:17:42,556
is generally focus groups, uh, tend to be

282
00:17:43,487 --> 00:17:46,279
jaded in their opinions because they're trying to tell you what you think you want

283
00:17:46,279 --> 00:17:49,680
to hear generally, rather than— Or they may not even be wine

284
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,403
drinkers, like, who— like, you know, or whatever, you know, beer drinkers or whatever.

285
00:17:53,451 --> 00:17:56,993
You just I'm just saying, like, for our industry, we

286
00:17:56,993 --> 00:18:00,582
sometimes make it, we overcomplicate it. Mm-hmm. And it

287
00:18:00,582 --> 00:18:03,274
really is quite simple, which is

288
00:18:04,204 --> 00:18:07,970
adult beverage brings people together. It really, it's a

289
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:11,543
very social interaction. And

290
00:18:11,656 --> 00:18:15,213
so while a grocery aisle may not seem

291
00:18:15,309 --> 00:18:19,059
sexy for a lot of people, they have to get their staples.

292
00:18:19,636 --> 00:18:23,343
And when they walk in there and they see you sampling a product, they get

293
00:18:23,343 --> 00:18:27,098
really excited. Not every single person, but a lot

294
00:18:27,098 --> 00:18:30,756
of them. And to just have that one interaction

295
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:34,703
where they change their perspective on

296
00:18:35,281 --> 00:18:38,667
your product or being open to trying it

297
00:18:39,373 --> 00:18:43,208
is the changemaker. And it's not, you know, like I

298
00:18:43,304 --> 00:18:46,593
always say it to everyone, it's like really boring, persistent,

299
00:18:46,609 --> 00:18:49,595
consistent. The industry has somehow,

300
00:18:50,527 --> 00:18:54,123
and not everyone, like it's in our memory,

301
00:18:54,236 --> 00:18:57,447
like it's like, it's just persistent, consistent,

302
00:18:58,153 --> 00:19:01,188
being open and available, always

303
00:19:01,766 --> 00:19:04,865
opening a bottle, sampling it, tasting it,

304
00:19:05,218 --> 00:19:08,671
talking about it. That is how you're—

305
00:19:09,088 --> 00:19:12,749
Let's go to your, let's go back a little bit because we, last time we

306
00:19:13,086 --> 00:19:16,856
spoke together, we were at Vintage Wine Estates, which was, uh, you know, an

307
00:19:16,856 --> 00:19:20,595
attempt to kind of— I don't say corner the market, but kind of produce all

308
00:19:20,723 --> 00:19:24,125
pieces of marketing and avenues of distribution of wine, from

309
00:19:24,173 --> 00:19:27,959
manufacturing to wholesale to, to club sales and all the rest

310
00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:31,778
of it, which is a huge lofty goal. And we know what happened. Yeah.

311
00:19:32,035 --> 00:19:34,971
But, but Cameron Hughes was— was—

312
00:19:36,206 --> 00:19:39,864
there's a fly on you. Cameron Hughes

313
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,700
was like one of the original brand building ideas in

314
00:19:43,749 --> 00:19:47,361
the DTC world, direct-to-consumer world, where there was a sort of a

315
00:19:47,361 --> 00:19:51,022
story to tell of this gentleman that was able to source these amazing

316
00:19:51,118 --> 00:19:54,875
wines. And so you've seen all these transitions and then, and

317
00:19:54,891 --> 00:19:58,632
then that got heavy into digital marketing. And, you know, we were talking about the,

318
00:19:58,921 --> 00:20:02,325
you know, Google Ads are a race to non-profitability because it's an auction and all

319
00:20:02,373 --> 00:20:06,018
the things that we've talked about. Yeah. But so you've landed here with

320
00:20:06,130 --> 00:20:09,610
back to the experience. of just having that

321
00:20:09,675 --> 00:20:13,328
conversation, but you're able to do it in numbers with— you've got over a million

322
00:20:13,344 --> 00:20:16,902
people you've spoke to in a year. That's pretty substantial. Yeah.

323
00:20:17,286 --> 00:20:20,972
I mean, so like, I actually will say, I think the

324
00:20:20,972 --> 00:20:24,802
experience of building CHW is so, so similar to what

325
00:20:24,802 --> 00:20:28,471
I'm doing right now because the signal is

326
00:20:28,519 --> 00:20:32,269
still digital. We're— we, we actually, we work with our

327
00:20:32,269 --> 00:20:36,069
clients to put out ads to get people to come

328
00:20:36,069 --> 00:20:39,663
to store because we have this retail space to

329
00:20:39,663 --> 00:20:43,091
sample. Why is it— why is CHW

330
00:20:43,686 --> 00:20:47,526
and tea sampling the same? Because when we

331
00:20:47,623 --> 00:20:50,788
were building our e-com business, we were trying to build an

332
00:20:50,788 --> 00:20:54,228
experience, a new experience for

333
00:20:54,228 --> 00:20:57,893
consumers to connect with product, to connect with story,

334
00:20:58,005 --> 00:21:01,552
to connect with meaning. Mm-hmm. And I will say that our

335
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,230
business really was built, as you well know, it— we were doing

336
00:21:05,343 --> 00:21:08,697
dry hand selling at Costco. We were the original

337
00:21:08,891 --> 00:21:12,512
talking to consumers. That is how we built the business.

338
00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:16,651
And that translated into our e-com

339
00:21:16,667 --> 00:21:18,854
business because we were able to sign people up

340
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:23,741
at Costco before Costco started building their own list.

341
00:21:24,374 --> 00:21:27,514
And so Now, what I would say, what

342
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,433
matters is, and we see it for the industry across the

343
00:21:32,433 --> 00:21:36,235
board with all of the different states

344
00:21:36,235 --> 00:21:37,097
that we work in,

345
00:21:41,601 --> 00:21:44,325
the way you and I grew up in our homes

346
00:21:45,309 --> 00:21:49,033
where we got recommendations about what to buy, what to

347
00:21:49,033 --> 00:21:51,846
try, what to taste, like That

348
00:21:52,728 --> 00:21:56,317
way is no longer. It just is

349
00:21:56,413 --> 00:21:59,954
different. People, a lot of

350
00:21:59,954 --> 00:22:03,607
people don't have an office to go to. They are not having

351
00:22:03,703 --> 00:22:07,308
water cooler talk. A lot of families don't

352
00:22:07,308 --> 00:22:10,994
necessarily live with each other. They're not having that

353
00:22:11,010 --> 00:22:14,823
kind of conversation. Mm-hmm. Where we would make recommendations

354
00:22:14,855 --> 00:22:18,701
to each other about, hey, have you tried this wine? Hey, have you tried

355
00:22:18,701 --> 00:22:22,551
this beer? Hey, have you tried this tequila? Or just

356
00:22:22,551 --> 00:22:26,322
watching your family enjoy different products,

357
00:22:26,867 --> 00:22:30,478
or watching your colleagues when you go out for

358
00:22:30,478 --> 00:22:34,265
cocktails after work, because that's— because you're not in a

359
00:22:34,265 --> 00:22:37,923
traditional work environment. All of that has changed. Completely.

360
00:22:38,742 --> 00:22:41,742
And so, so connecting with

361
00:22:42,529 --> 00:22:46,283
consumers, you have to work with what's available

362
00:22:46,283 --> 00:22:49,174
to you. And you know that consumers,

363
00:22:49,838 --> 00:22:53,446
even people who are ordering on Instacart, they still

364
00:22:53,721 --> 00:22:57,415
go to store. They still go to the store.

365
00:22:58,674 --> 00:23:02,227
They go to Safeway, they go to Total Wine, they go

366
00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:06,330
to stores, and they are paying

367
00:23:06,427 --> 00:23:09,871
attention, and they do want to try.

368
00:23:10,404 --> 00:23:14,010
Not every single person. And sometimes you may be a

369
00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:16,690
person who goes to store and you're like, not right now, but maybe next time.

370
00:23:16,739 --> 00:23:20,478
Yeah. And the key to success

371
00:23:20,526 --> 00:23:23,082
here is just being there.

372
00:23:24,408 --> 00:23:28,102
And let me add one more thing. Every

373
00:23:28,379 --> 00:23:31,702
person who works in a grocery store is a

374
00:23:31,702 --> 00:23:35,533
consumer. That's a really good point.

375
00:23:36,908 --> 00:23:40,398
It's obviously built into the conversation right there. You show up.

376
00:23:41,137 --> 00:23:44,788
And so we have this huge— we have salespeople

377
00:23:46,324 --> 00:23:49,758
and we have distributors, and their whole job is to get

378
00:23:49,791 --> 00:23:53,354
product in the store, right? And then it's like,

379
00:23:53,660 --> 00:23:57,310
then what? Then what happens? So let's go to that section

380
00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:00,892
because I'm going to relay a story from the Columbus

381
00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:04,747
Circle, New York Whole Foods. And I was there and there

382
00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:08,605
was a young woman, I think she was, she was supposed

383
00:24:08,605 --> 00:24:12,383
to be setting up an apple tasting table. And you, I

384
00:24:12,383 --> 00:24:16,230
think you dip it in apple almond butter or something. And so

385
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:20,070
I had, I ended up having to go find her a knife. I

386
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:23,150
helped her understand what brand she was supposed to— she says, I don't know what

387
00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:25,950
I'm doing. Where do I get the apples? I'm like, I don't work here, first

388
00:24:25,950 --> 00:24:29,670
of all. You're so awesome. So

389
00:24:29,670 --> 00:24:33,090
the first question is, what, A, how

390
00:24:33,090 --> 00:24:36,850
are the wineries and distributors? I'm not sure you're talking to distributors, but the

391
00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:40,550
wineries and the proprietors of these brands reacting to this idea that they have to

392
00:24:40,550 --> 00:24:44,398
get into the field, And, and do these promotions. And

393
00:24:44,398 --> 00:24:48,052
then how are you preparing these people to have, if they're not part of the

394
00:24:48,117 --> 00:24:51,631
brand and they're just a vended out, uh, person to pour,

395
00:24:52,394 --> 00:24:56,163
how are we getting this emotion across the table to these people, to the

396
00:24:56,163 --> 00:24:59,325
consumer? I mean, it really, to the,

397
00:24:59,904 --> 00:25:03,060
so for, for the brands that are

398
00:25:03,109 --> 00:25:06,747
investing in in-store sampling,

399
00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:11,670
They, they do. Again, you know, there's the brand that does

400
00:25:11,767 --> 00:25:15,569
like just the box checking, right? Like, I'm just checking the box.

401
00:25:15,666 --> 00:25:19,218
Yeah, right. Because this is what the buyer has told me I have to do.

402
00:25:21,146 --> 00:25:24,974
And so the store being the buyer saying, if you want your brand in here,

403
00:25:25,167 --> 00:25:28,528
you need to set up a table. And that's how it's always been,

404
00:25:28,882 --> 00:25:32,686
right? Right. On some level. And so that's why the industry kind

405
00:25:32,686 --> 00:25:36,451
of takes it a little bit for granted and they're like, ooh, well, I

406
00:25:36,451 --> 00:25:39,732
just, I guess I have to do this. And they have

407
00:25:39,845 --> 00:25:43,462
depended, and this is specific to wine, they've

408
00:25:43,462 --> 00:25:46,990
depended on on-premise sales, right? To really pull

409
00:25:47,022 --> 00:25:50,597
through to off-premise. That's true. And so

410
00:25:51,352 --> 00:25:54,550
let's just talk about what the cost to buy a glass of wine is

411
00:25:55,128 --> 00:25:58,905
on-premise right now. Yeah. You know,

412
00:25:59,590 --> 00:26:03,210
Well, let's talk about that for the consumer just for fun. It

413
00:26:03,307 --> 00:26:06,863
used to be the formula was you try to get your bottle cost back in

414
00:26:06,863 --> 00:26:10,597
the first glass and you're getting 4 to 5.5 glasses per

415
00:26:10,597 --> 00:26:13,961
bottle. So, you know, as a margin item

416
00:26:14,301 --> 00:26:17,938
at a house pour restaurant is, you know, it's decent

417
00:26:17,954 --> 00:26:21,423
margins compared to the food, but it's not great.

418
00:26:22,214 --> 00:26:25,957
So now that— but now those prices are up.

419
00:26:26,021 --> 00:26:29,440
I just— there's a wine bar down the street just opened. Incredible. Okay. It's just,

420
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,780
I give these people so much credit and so much courage to open a wine

421
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:36,500
bar in today's environment. You're like, oh. But it's

422
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:39,840
been very busy. But, um, you know, he was talking, he

423
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,560
getting complaints at $14 a glass.

424
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,470
They're like, well, he's like, what, what would you like better? They're like, $12.

425
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,980
And like, really, for $2, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna— we're— this is what

426
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:56,760
we're buying so we can, you know, enthuse you into wines. But this has turned

427
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,941
into one of those locations you're talking about where people come To have those

428
00:26:59,974 --> 00:27:03,474
conversations. So let's go back to the, let's go back to the in-store thing.

429
00:27:04,775 --> 00:27:08,275
Where are we? I think that's a really important, I actually think it's really important

430
00:27:08,628 --> 00:27:12,369
that I actually think you're hitting on something. You're like, for

431
00:27:12,482 --> 00:27:14,938
12, I'd rather be 12 than 14.

432
00:27:16,416 --> 00:27:20,060
Okay. That is a really important nuance

433
00:27:20,526 --> 00:27:24,059
because that means that that person's going to be like, I'm going to have a

434
00:27:24,059 --> 00:27:27,874
cocktail. I know it's a wine bar, but I'm just saying

435
00:27:28,291 --> 00:27:31,512
when they are faced with the choice, they will move to a

436
00:27:31,512 --> 00:27:35,309
cocktail. And so I actually think that

437
00:27:35,357 --> 00:27:39,091
price sensitivity is extremely important because

438
00:27:39,524 --> 00:27:42,857
it is something that is being— we hear it all the time in

439
00:27:42,953 --> 00:27:46,767
off-premise. And we, we're selling bottles. We're not selling

440
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:50,372
glasses. Yeah. And we hear, we hear

441
00:27:50,661 --> 00:27:53,810
from Consumers saying it's just so

442
00:27:53,907 --> 00:27:57,521
expensive and there's just so much and there's just so many

443
00:27:58,425 --> 00:28:00,861
and I don't know what to go. I don't know what to buy. I don't

444
00:28:00,910 --> 00:28:04,421
know how to. I don't know why I would like it.

445
00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:08,320
What and I'm and the best is, and this especially you hear this from

446
00:28:09,399 --> 00:28:13,092
the younger millennials and Gen Z. I don't want to buy a whole

447
00:28:13,205 --> 00:28:16,933
bottle. I I want like it. I want

448
00:28:16,933 --> 00:28:20,720
it in a can. Like, why can't I have it in a can?

449
00:28:23,270 --> 00:28:26,358
I know, I hear you, but listen to me.

450
00:28:26,989 --> 00:28:30,773
Like, what if you can still have 750s

451
00:28:31,096 --> 00:28:34,332
and you can still have your section dedicated to 750s,

452
00:28:34,959 --> 00:28:38,719
but where the industry from an innovation standpoint is

453
00:28:38,816 --> 00:28:42,626
just— we see it in our data, we see

454
00:28:42,626 --> 00:28:46,184
it in the conver— I was at Total Wine this weekend in Daly

455
00:28:46,248 --> 00:28:49,264
City, and I was pouring wine,

456
00:28:49,938 --> 00:28:52,923
some fabulous, wonderful, affordable,

457
00:28:52,987 --> 00:28:56,790
delicious, incredible wines. Mm-hmm. And I talked to

458
00:28:57,544 --> 00:29:00,898
at least 30 different shoppers

459
00:29:01,395 --> 00:29:05,150
from all different ages, you know, from Gen Z to baby

460
00:29:05,182 --> 00:29:08,920
boomers. And I just, as

461
00:29:09,017 --> 00:29:12,788
we're having conversations and they're telling me about their lives and, you pouring some

462
00:29:12,804 --> 00:29:16,545
wine and they're telling me about, you know, what interests them and whatnot. And of

463
00:29:16,577 --> 00:29:20,398
course they walk away with a couple of bottles. Every single person, 'cause

464
00:29:20,414 --> 00:29:24,219
I just was curious, would you, if this wine was available

465
00:29:24,219 --> 00:29:27,382
in a can, would you buy it? They're like, I would buy like 4. I'd

466
00:29:27,414 --> 00:29:31,106
buy like a 4-pack. Like I would, I'd

467
00:29:31,106 --> 00:29:34,799
buy it immediately. That's like live market research. I,

468
00:29:34,944 --> 00:29:38,604
I'm literally, and so if you watch what's going on in the industry and what

469
00:29:38,733 --> 00:29:42,435
the competitive issue is right now, you see RTDs

470
00:29:43,651 --> 00:29:47,151
just growing like crazy. You see

471
00:29:47,281 --> 00:29:50,909
RTS, like spirits, entering into that

472
00:29:50,909 --> 00:29:53,484
category in a very huge way, right?

473
00:29:55,416 --> 00:29:59,191
And there's a reason. But do you think

474
00:29:59,191 --> 00:30:03,008
that, like, we have close friends that just start, they had a very famous bar

475
00:30:03,008 --> 00:30:06,534
in Pasadena, California. They sold the restaurant and the bar, and from that they

476
00:30:06,566 --> 00:30:10,050
created an RTD that's high-end stuff. I mean, I actually had

477
00:30:10,114 --> 00:30:13,520
taste-offs with my own martinis, which I think

478
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,329
are pro. Martinis? Yeah. And my Manhattans

479
00:30:17,361 --> 00:30:21,041
are pro. And they were very close and I almost

480
00:30:21,041 --> 00:30:24,527
lost this gamble between my son-in-laws and myself, but I

481
00:30:24,688 --> 00:30:28,047
prevailed because that's how high-end these things are because I

482
00:30:28,272 --> 00:30:31,871
handcraft them. And they are getting a lot of traction, but they

483
00:30:31,967 --> 00:30:35,658
are doing what you're talking about. They're probably just a couple of

484
00:30:35,658 --> 00:30:39,265
years younger than I am. And they're all over Los Angeles and

485
00:30:39,265 --> 00:30:42,742
San Diego pouring off RTDs. You know, what do you get,

486
00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:46,637
3/4 of an ounce here in California? Mm-hmm. And they just

487
00:30:46,637 --> 00:30:50,067
got picked up by Total. They got picked up by Costco. And

488
00:30:50,660 --> 00:30:53,224
I guess that's just the way it has to be. And those conversations, I think

489
00:30:53,224 --> 00:30:56,990
it has everything to do with these conversations you're having and

490
00:30:56,990 --> 00:31:00,789
this wonderful market research, which is just, you're just, I

491
00:31:00,837 --> 00:31:04,411
can see your brain just logging all this information. As you're having these

492
00:31:04,443 --> 00:31:08,195
conversations, you said something very important. You said after a

493
00:31:08,195 --> 00:31:12,028
conversation about their lives. Yes. Who these

494
00:31:12,140 --> 00:31:15,507
people are. Yeah. I mean, that's huge, right?

495
00:31:16,132 --> 00:31:19,917
I mean, that is really, again, going back to the

496
00:31:19,917 --> 00:31:23,444
fabric, the social fabric of enjoying adult

497
00:31:23,444 --> 00:31:27,180
beverage is not just a conversation of the story

498
00:31:27,308 --> 00:31:30,932
of the brand. And that really does matter and we share

499
00:31:31,125 --> 00:31:34,546
it. But it's also who they are, understanding who they are,

500
00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:38,402
and connecting that back to the brand, finding some

501
00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:42,049
alignment. You know, it isn't always, you know,

502
00:31:42,145 --> 00:31:45,728
for cork dorks, you know, it's like, ooh, the taste, the

503
00:31:45,744 --> 00:31:49,471
style. For most consumers, it's really like,

504
00:31:49,616 --> 00:31:53,038
do I feel something? Yes. Do I feel something?

505
00:31:53,857 --> 00:31:57,568
And I do think that, I mean, I know you

506
00:31:57,568 --> 00:32:01,277
agree with this, It's like when you have conversations around

507
00:32:01,438 --> 00:32:05,200
drinking your like amazing martinis, everyone's sitting

508
00:32:05,232 --> 00:32:08,378
there asking you like, so what vodka did you use? And what

509
00:32:08,845 --> 00:32:12,243
olives did you get? And I wanna know how you shook it. And I wanna

510
00:32:12,243 --> 00:32:15,761
know how you're doing it. And I wanna know what your secret is. And

511
00:32:15,955 --> 00:32:19,328
that information transfer is,

512
00:32:19,831 --> 00:32:22,621
you can't do that through like— Mm-hmm.

513
00:32:24,046 --> 00:32:27,829
a coupon. No. An in-store coupon. Or a— You

514
00:32:27,829 --> 00:32:31,388
just, you can't. And so it is getting like, I

515
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:35,139
actually, for, again, and it's not just wine, but it's for

516
00:32:35,588 --> 00:32:38,569
any, any category in liquor.

517
00:32:39,291 --> 00:32:42,817
Those conversations are so critically important.

518
00:32:43,282 --> 00:32:47,033
Like the whole movement with NA really

519
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:50,917
is, everyone thinks, oh, people are drinking less We have the

520
00:32:50,917 --> 00:32:54,629
data. They're not drinking less. People are not

521
00:32:54,775 --> 00:32:57,809
not drinking less. They are drinking less wine.

522
00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:02,554
They are drinking more RTDs. They are drinking more

523
00:33:02,748 --> 00:33:06,476
whiskey in certain areas. They are drinking more vodka

524
00:33:06,638 --> 00:33:10,467
in certain areas. But they are definitely turning

525
00:33:10,581 --> 00:33:14,236
away from wine more and more. I can see

526
00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:17,600
with a beer or distilled spirit or

527
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,212
non-alc or low-alc, Uh, but

528
00:33:21,448 --> 00:33:25,110
wine people are farmers by trade. How are they reacting when, when they bring,

529
00:33:25,222 --> 00:33:28,338
when you come into their company, they call you as an inquiry, can you help

530
00:33:28,338 --> 00:33:30,907
us do this? And you're just like, yeah, you're gonna go stand at a booth

531
00:33:30,907 --> 00:33:34,665
at a restaurant. I mean, at a supermarket or at a Costco or something.

532
00:33:34,938 --> 00:33:38,583
What's their general reaction? Like, you know, forget it or

533
00:33:39,177 --> 00:33:42,855
okay, let's see what happens. They, the, it, this is,

534
00:33:42,967 --> 00:33:46,629
and this is what I think is a little bit, and this is specific to

535
00:33:47,046 --> 00:33:50,518
Just how it's structured in wine, this is what is problematic,

536
00:33:51,306 --> 00:33:54,425
is that it actually happens through their distributor

537
00:33:55,180 --> 00:33:58,719
or it happens through their— it will happen through their

538
00:33:58,719 --> 00:34:02,145
sales team and marketing has nothing to do with it.

539
00:34:04,272 --> 00:34:07,982
Like zero. Because again— Interesting. It is a

540
00:34:08,047 --> 00:34:11,128
checkbox typically. It's like

541
00:34:12,161 --> 00:34:15,946
our buyer told us we have to go do this. And they're— In

542
00:34:15,962 --> 00:34:19,560
order to get— in order to get— okay, and in order to get our cases

543
00:34:19,576 --> 00:34:22,933
in. And then the success of it, does it change any minds?

544
00:34:24,234 --> 00:34:27,350
Um, because I'll be honest with you,

545
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:31,591
it— they do see that for the brands that are

546
00:34:32,217 --> 00:34:35,879
smart and can see and, and spend the time,

547
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,007
yes. And it, it is the difference maker.

548
00:34:40,377 --> 00:34:44,025
And it gets— you can immediately

549
00:34:44,025 --> 00:34:47,737
see the impact. For those brands that only play

550
00:34:47,946 --> 00:34:51,322
during a special time of year, no.

551
00:34:52,148 --> 00:34:55,970
Hmm. It doesn't— it really will not make a

552
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:59,618
massive difference because again, it's

553
00:34:59,666 --> 00:35:03,241
about, you know, like it's about like just

554
00:35:03,289 --> 00:35:06,800
pounding the pavement. It's a— it really is like, do you

555
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,865
remember— did you ever meet Dan Duckhorn? I never met him.

556
00:35:10,530 --> 00:35:14,233
But, um, oh, maybe at a tasting years and years and years

557
00:35:14,265 --> 00:35:17,968
ago. So he, he, one thing, and I have a

558
00:35:17,968 --> 00:35:21,595
dear friend who worked closely with him, and I will say one thing that I've

559
00:35:21,595 --> 00:35:25,161
heard about him and that she shared with me is that there

560
00:35:25,210 --> 00:35:28,776
wasn't a person that he wasn't willing to say hello to,

561
00:35:28,792 --> 00:35:30,280
shake hands with, and taste with.

562
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,913
And the industry as a whole has

563
00:35:36,043 --> 00:35:39,844
to in my mind. Like, and they can do it through

564
00:35:40,197 --> 00:35:43,985
my company, they can do it through any company, they can do

565
00:35:43,985 --> 00:35:47,644
it themselves. But really utilize the opportunity

566
00:35:47,997 --> 00:35:51,175
at every single moment to

567
00:35:51,271 --> 00:35:55,107
connect in person with a consumer. And it doesn't have

568
00:35:55,139 --> 00:35:58,943
to be in this like highly organized restaurant atmosphere.

569
00:35:59,729 --> 00:36:03,099
It doesn't have to be in this like super like fancy

570
00:36:03,099 --> 00:36:06,370
spot. Um, and it certainly isn't in a

571
00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:09,834
sponsorship. What I'm talking about is

572
00:36:09,882 --> 00:36:13,603
just real connections with

573
00:36:13,988 --> 00:36:17,804
consumers at the point where a consumer is voting

574
00:36:18,638 --> 00:36:21,364
for whether they're gonna buy your product or not.

575
00:36:22,583 --> 00:36:26,256
It's a good point. There's a, there's a book years and years ago called The

576
00:36:26,256 --> 00:36:29,303
Moments of Truth, and this kind of ties into this. There's a I think the

577
00:36:29,303 --> 00:36:32,915
guy turned around Swissair or one of those airlines. And what he did was he

578
00:36:32,915 --> 00:36:36,704
turned the level of responsibility upside

579
00:36:36,752 --> 00:36:39,080
down. In other words, the decisions never didn't come from the top.

580
00:36:40,444 --> 00:36:43,270
The steward or the stewardess or the

581
00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:47,122
gatekeeper was able to make the decisions that

582
00:36:47,122 --> 00:36:50,799
made a difference for that consumer's impression of the

583
00:36:50,799 --> 00:36:54,363
company. Yeah. So everything was about this impression of the company. And I

584
00:36:54,363 --> 00:36:57,848
thought of this just now because of, My experience with the woman and the apple

585
00:36:58,523 --> 00:37:01,881
and the almond butter was like, you know, by the time I was done with

586
00:37:01,881 --> 00:37:05,673
this thing, like, this is a horrible presentation of what you're trying to

587
00:37:05,673 --> 00:37:09,305
do with this product. And you obviously don't care at all. So how

588
00:37:09,305 --> 00:37:13,113
important is it that this person that's doing this pouring, that's having these

589
00:37:13,209 --> 00:37:16,503
conversations, is connected to the product, is connected to the best product? It's super

590
00:37:16,503 --> 00:37:20,311
important. It's like super, I actually, so, I

591
00:37:20,311 --> 00:37:23,963
mean, it's great when, you know, suppliers will

592
00:37:23,979 --> 00:37:27,553
do it, but you can have a company like

593
00:37:27,698 --> 00:37:31,546
my company. We only do adult beverage. That's it. We don't

594
00:37:31,546 --> 00:37:35,146
do apple butter. We don't do sausage. We don't do like,

595
00:37:35,781 --> 00:37:39,563
that's it. We only do adult beverage. And, and that's all, that's, that's what

596
00:37:39,595 --> 00:37:43,105
we love. That's what we care about. That's folks who, who

597
00:37:43,153 --> 00:37:46,937
work in my company. Like, for

598
00:37:47,018 --> 00:37:50,868
them, it is about the joy. of the product. It is about the

599
00:37:50,868 --> 00:37:54,560
joy of the industry. It is about the joy of, you

600
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,347
know, any category. You know, some have— some of our

601
00:37:58,492 --> 00:38:01,573
team members prefer wine. Some

602
00:38:02,905 --> 00:38:06,147
prefer whiskey. Some prefer tequila. Some

603
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:10,272
like beer. Some— there are people who are like, absolutely not. I'm

604
00:38:10,272 --> 00:38:13,963
doing— not doing buzz balls no matter what you say. Like, never, ever,

605
00:38:14,043 --> 00:38:17,590
ever. And then we have some people who are like, I wanna do that margarita

606
00:38:17,590 --> 00:38:21,233
mix. Like, I'm super into that. I wanna try it. But in general,

607
00:38:21,345 --> 00:38:25,020
what binds us all is just a love of the adult beverage

608
00:38:25,053 --> 00:38:28,391
industry and really talking to people and connecting

609
00:38:28,888 --> 00:38:32,563
because this industry, like, it really

610
00:38:32,676 --> 00:38:35,853
does matter. Like, again, I'm just gonna go back to, I was at Total Wine

611
00:38:35,950 --> 00:38:39,336
in Daly City this weekend, and I have to just

612
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,995
compliment that store in particular. I visit stores

613
00:38:43,332 --> 00:38:46,926
all the time. And there was just this unbelievable

614
00:38:47,118 --> 00:38:50,582
kind of wine leader

615
00:38:50,871 --> 00:38:54,624
that they had. His name was Christopher Ennis. He's been in the

616
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,153
industry for 40 years, like 40 years.

617
00:38:58,810 --> 00:39:02,210
And he's been with a distributor, he's been in

618
00:39:02,259 --> 00:39:05,274
marketing, he's been in sales, he's like done it all.

619
00:39:06,108 --> 00:39:09,701
And he's like, I just was so tired of

620
00:39:09,797 --> 00:39:12,940
living in that corporate universe and all I wanna do

621
00:39:13,566 --> 00:39:17,237
is like watch, is like taste people on wine

622
00:39:17,734 --> 00:39:21,517
and like see how they connect. And I

623
00:39:21,661 --> 00:39:24,739
really think that that to me is like

624
00:39:25,749 --> 00:39:29,500
just a general message to the industry, which is it really

625
00:39:29,676 --> 00:39:32,866
is about social connection, especially in a time of

626
00:39:32,978 --> 00:39:36,617
disconnection. I mean, what we're doing right now,

627
00:39:37,387 --> 00:39:41,218
you and I talking, having the ability to talk in separate places, that's the

628
00:39:41,314 --> 00:39:45,049
beauty of digital. That's the gorgeousness of it. And

629
00:39:45,161 --> 00:39:48,933
that gonna be able to share this conversation with so many people that

630
00:39:48,933 --> 00:39:52,592
they didn't have to be in our house. But it just means

631
00:39:52,865 --> 00:39:56,492
that they have to take this information and go to their

632
00:39:56,556 --> 00:40:00,392
friends and spend time, go to their community and

633
00:40:00,472 --> 00:40:04,164
connect and learn from what we're talking about. So as

634
00:40:04,164 --> 00:40:07,951
HSP, you were at, um, Vintage and you were

635
00:40:07,951 --> 00:40:11,788
at Cameron Hughes, you're at Donna Karan. Um, And then

636
00:40:11,788 --> 00:40:15,047
you were with Connect the Dots. Was this a—

637
00:40:15,898 --> 00:40:19,607
was this something that was brewing in the back of your mind or hit you

638
00:40:20,394 --> 00:40:23,685
like in the side of the face? Like, I need to do this. What? Okay.

639
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:27,475
What's, what's your origin? You are gonna love this story. You're gonna love this story.

640
00:40:27,684 --> 00:40:31,264
You're gonna love it. So when I

641
00:40:31,312 --> 00:40:34,957
started Camerini's Wine with Cam, we were

642
00:40:34,989 --> 00:40:38,758
doing tastings at Costco. Now we were

643
00:40:38,758 --> 00:40:41,579
doing dry tastings, right? Like, or taste, you know, just like,

644
00:40:42,684 --> 00:40:46,498
I don't know, we were just doing events. Yeah. Where we would

645
00:40:46,610 --> 00:40:49,318
go and talk about our wine.

646
00:40:50,536 --> 00:40:54,125
And we were asked to go to so many stores

647
00:40:55,022 --> 00:40:58,788
every single weekend. I'd lose my voice every weekend. Cam would lose

648
00:40:58,788 --> 00:41:02,345
his voice every weekend. And so finally I was like, we need to,

649
00:41:02,569 --> 00:41:06,180
we need to like bring people. We need we need people to help us talk

650
00:41:06,196 --> 00:41:09,650
about our wine because they want us to go to all these stores.

651
00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:13,907
And so that's when this concept— this is when

652
00:41:13,907 --> 00:41:17,153
I built this idea, and that became

653
00:41:17,265 --> 00:41:19,964
basically the marketing arm of Cameron Heats Wines,

654
00:41:21,105 --> 00:41:24,624
is just hand-selling our wines

655
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,496
in all the Costco stores. That's fascinating. And that's, that's really— and

656
00:41:28,528 --> 00:41:31,869
so it just morphed. So basically suppliers and

657
00:41:31,869 --> 00:41:35,545
distributors came to us and they're like, wow, you guys are really good at this.

658
00:41:35,722 --> 00:41:39,029
Like, you're really good. Would you do it for us? And we're like, well, we,

659
00:41:39,269 --> 00:41:43,106
we compete with you, so we really can't. Um, so then we spun

660
00:41:43,106 --> 00:41:46,863
it off and that's really where HSP came from. So it started a long

661
00:41:46,959 --> 00:41:50,764
time ago and you went through, I'm sure at Vintage it wasn't part of

662
00:41:50,764 --> 00:41:54,520
the marketing program. I'm sure— Yes. No, it wasn't. You're so smart.

663
00:41:54,761 --> 00:41:58,453
And then Captain Dutch was different, different altogether. But Here you have a

664
00:41:58,453 --> 00:42:01,418
chance to really develop this passion. And I

665
00:42:01,418 --> 00:42:05,217
can't say it enough to people about how

666
00:42:05,330 --> 00:42:09,177
experiential wine is anyway and always has been. And I can tell you back

667
00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:11,677
in the day when I stood at the booth for 12 hours at the LA

668
00:42:11,677 --> 00:42:15,012
County Fair and the San Diego Fair and all the fairs. I shook a

669
00:42:15,028 --> 00:42:18,635
hand and said, this is— that those people, when

670
00:42:18,635 --> 00:42:22,450
they got their first shipment, would go, oh, I

671
00:42:22,482 --> 00:42:26,313
remember that conversation with that guy. It's no different than a tasting room club member

672
00:42:26,329 --> 00:42:29,679
that went there, they're on their honeymoon or they're on their first date or whatever.

673
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,464
this, and they go and have a glass of wine at Grgich Hills, and all

674
00:42:33,464 --> 00:42:37,056
of a sudden that relationship with the wine

675
00:42:38,211 --> 00:42:41,979
is established, and it'll always be established. And so this is the

676
00:42:41,979 --> 00:42:45,523
same thing on the fly. It's the same. Well, it's the

677
00:42:45,523 --> 00:42:48,923
same thing that is already like, it's already

678
00:42:48,955 --> 00:42:52,788
part of programming, right? I mean, it's just

679
00:42:52,788 --> 00:42:56,139
the question is like, and so like the question really becomes,

680
00:42:56,647 --> 00:42:59,833
Why are you spending all that money on discounting?

681
00:43:01,220 --> 00:43:03,470
Why don't you spend money on sampling?

682
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:09,468
Wow. You know what? You just thought— you triggered a thought. What? We have

683
00:43:10,068 --> 00:43:13,650
in our family and through friends and family, whatever,

684
00:43:13,958 --> 00:43:17,698
a gentleman who used to run the MGM Grand,

685
00:43:17,908 --> 00:43:21,435
the whole— the studio and the MGM Grand. And he worked

686
00:43:21,484 --> 00:43:25,182
directly for Kirk Kerkorian. Gregorian, and I call him all the time to

687
00:43:25,392 --> 00:43:28,661
just talk to him about business. And one time I told him when I was

688
00:43:28,661 --> 00:43:32,398
selling the Wine of the Month Club, and the first question he asked me

689
00:43:33,368 --> 00:43:36,748
was, "Are you a discounter?" Meaning,

690
00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:39,061
I don't know if I'm going to be able to help you if you're one

691
00:43:39,061 --> 00:43:41,875
of those guys who's just trying to beat the price down to the lowest price

692
00:43:41,875 --> 00:43:45,697
that you need to get sales volume and market share versus are you

693
00:43:45,746 --> 00:43:48,902
the guy that's value added in just

694
00:43:49,255 --> 00:43:52,772
partially part of that conversation is storytelling. And maybe that's what

695
00:43:52,788 --> 00:43:55,839
happens. Maybe the storytelling adds the value.

696
00:43:56,722 --> 00:44:00,527
I mean, I, I, I guess in a time where I feel

697
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:04,140
the industry is having, I hope, some self-reflection, and I

698
00:44:04,188 --> 00:44:08,025
speak specifically to wine, I just don't think the

699
00:44:08,025 --> 00:44:11,718
answer is discounting. No, I don't. Well, we've discussed

700
00:44:11,718 --> 00:44:15,496
before, so you already You're already spending so much money on

701
00:44:15,756 --> 00:44:19,589
advertising in that whole scenario. And

702
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:21,893
then you have to discount to get their

703
00:44:23,050 --> 00:44:26,649
attention. I mean, we've talked about this before. How can you

704
00:44:26,762 --> 00:44:30,393
put 12 bottles of wine in a box and ship it to

705
00:44:30,393 --> 00:44:33,651
somebody for free at $89? Something's not giving.

706
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:37,444
Something's giving. Something's giving. And I mean, especially

707
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,671
I would say, like, you know, obviously, seeing

708
00:44:41,703 --> 00:44:45,358
at retail, it's just like the brand equity

709
00:44:45,470 --> 00:44:49,221
that you're giving away also. Yeah, giving away. I mean, you're just

710
00:44:49,221 --> 00:44:52,700
giving it away and it like, it just

711
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:56,483
slowly just like chips away and it's just

712
00:44:56,515 --> 00:45:00,074
like, how about this? How about this idea? How about

713
00:45:00,362 --> 00:45:04,001
one month you don't do a TPR and you

714
00:45:04,065 --> 00:45:07,159
just put all that money into sampling?

715
00:45:09,282 --> 00:45:13,109
Mm-hmm. Just try that out. See, see how that goes for you. And what's the

716
00:45:13,191 --> 00:45:16,934
risk of that? Exactly. What

717
00:45:16,934 --> 00:45:20,155
the zero— well, there's no— the only

718
00:45:20,252 --> 00:45:24,040
risk from, I guess, as from if it's in the, in the sales

719
00:45:24,072 --> 00:45:27,508
mindset, it's like, well, I'm not gonna move.

720
00:45:27,863 --> 00:45:31,703
My velocity will slow down. Okay. Your velocity

721
00:45:31,736 --> 00:45:35,287
slows down, but I bet on the other side, in like

722
00:45:35,922 --> 00:45:39,751
2 months, it's gonna double because you've

723
00:45:39,751 --> 00:45:43,418
just built, you've just re— like took

724
00:45:43,580 --> 00:45:47,133
back like the, the, the

725
00:45:47,214 --> 00:45:50,919
equity that you were giving away and having conversations with

726
00:45:50,951 --> 00:45:54,585
people and helping them express that story to

727
00:45:54,649 --> 00:45:57,970
others, take it home to their house and

728
00:45:58,151 --> 00:46:01,941
talk about it and feel something for it. I mean,

729
00:46:03,096 --> 00:46:06,352
this is why Napa Valley and Sonoma and

730
00:46:06,464 --> 00:46:10,249
California has these massive tasting rooms for

731
00:46:10,313 --> 00:46:13,985
you to have a feeling. And that feeling doesn't

732
00:46:13,985 --> 00:46:17,802
just exist in a tasting room. It can exist in a

733
00:46:17,995 --> 00:46:21,459
grocery store. It can be that simple. I thought of an

734
00:46:21,459 --> 00:46:25,308
episode that would play into what you're doing, and that is, we were, I

735
00:46:25,308 --> 00:46:29,158
was doing some social videotaping. I did some today at the market.

736
00:46:29,623 --> 00:46:33,218
Every single bottle at pavilions

737
00:46:33,266 --> 00:46:36,940
today had a shelf talker. Oh, really? I'm like, how do you

738
00:46:36,940 --> 00:46:40,663
decide? I mean, how do you decide? Which one did you go to? And

739
00:46:40,952 --> 00:46:44,690
the comment I made was, every one of these wines

740
00:46:44,947 --> 00:46:48,654
has a story, wants to tell a story. And I said, some of these

741
00:46:48,654 --> 00:46:52,408
stories are bullshit, but some of them are real stories. And some really have

742
00:46:52,408 --> 00:46:56,068
value built into that story because of the history or whatever. But anyway, one day

743
00:46:56,116 --> 00:46:58,991
we were doing something, it was back in the Wine and Let's Cook days. I

744
00:46:58,991 --> 00:47:02,749
was with my social network promoter and she and I were shooting a thing

745
00:47:02,765 --> 00:47:06,604
and a woman came down looking for a wine and she didn't know I was

746
00:47:06,636 --> 00:47:10,201
in the wine trade. We were just shooting videos. And I said, I go, what

747
00:47:10,201 --> 00:47:13,622
are you looking for? Just asking her. And she said, I'm looking for something different.

748
00:47:15,052 --> 00:47:18,344
I go, what do you usually drink? She said, Rodney Strong. And I thought to

749
00:47:18,344 --> 00:47:22,054
myself, oh, now I'm thinking, boy, if you had a table there

750
00:47:22,054 --> 00:47:25,471
that day and you were pouring off a story

751
00:47:26,385 --> 00:47:30,203
and that woman was looking for wine, you, that's an instant sale, right? And

752
00:47:30,235 --> 00:47:33,909
that's— It happens all the time. It's happened all the time. And I, I

753
00:47:33,925 --> 00:47:37,759
love Phil Marker, by the way. He's like, which I still, I think he's one

754
00:47:37,759 --> 00:47:41,513
of like the most, one of the, the major innovators

755
00:47:41,770 --> 00:47:45,492
in off-premise, um, when it comes to wine. Yeah.

756
00:47:45,540 --> 00:47:49,302
He's like, he's a wine champion. It makes

757
00:47:49,818 --> 00:47:52,751
all the difference. And for

758
00:47:53,927 --> 00:47:54,939
brands who are—

759
00:47:58,298 --> 00:48:01,946
for brands who want you to change, let's say you're walking

760
00:48:02,058 --> 00:48:05,743
in and you're like, I'm looking for— let's say they walk in

761
00:48:05,921 --> 00:48:09,708
saying, I want more Rodney Strong, but they're also like, I'm just really

762
00:48:09,805 --> 00:48:11,261
open to trying something else.

763
00:48:15,647 --> 00:48:19,450
And you're there standing there with something else. And, and so the,

764
00:48:19,643 --> 00:48:23,173
the, to me, it's like the cost to the

765
00:48:23,173 --> 00:48:26,847
company is like, this is, if, if,

766
00:48:27,184 --> 00:48:30,858
if I were the person who was deciding on the marketing

767
00:48:31,003 --> 00:48:34,549
spend these days, or the, the, whatever the sales

768
00:48:34,661 --> 00:48:38,336
budget spend is, to me, I'd be like, the

769
00:48:38,416 --> 00:48:41,673
industry is begging, like consumers are begging you

770
00:48:42,286 --> 00:48:46,008
to help us connect closer

771
00:48:46,008 --> 00:48:49,196
to you because we don't understand when we walk in.

772
00:48:49,973 --> 00:48:53,214
We— there's just everything is like, it's like

773
00:48:53,457 --> 00:48:57,023
intense in my face and I don't know what to go

774
00:48:57,023 --> 00:49:00,666
to. I'm overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. I lose my

775
00:49:00,666 --> 00:49:04,248
confidence and I actually do need someone to guide me

776
00:49:04,636 --> 00:49:08,325
and to help me and to just taste something For

777
00:49:08,438 --> 00:49:12,275
me, and it's and and you can't expect store. It's very

778
00:49:12,371 --> 00:49:15,888
difficult to have a som in every single store. You know, like you can't.

779
00:49:16,321 --> 00:49:19,998
It's pavilions is unique in that way. They have concierges in

780
00:49:19,998 --> 00:49:23,065
every single store. But to me

781
00:49:23,627 --> 00:49:27,416
today, if you look at what consumer behavior,

782
00:49:27,866 --> 00:49:31,623
you know that everybody's out there looking for experiences.

783
00:49:32,763 --> 00:49:36,451
Like. FIFA World Cup, live concerts,

784
00:49:36,707 --> 00:49:40,538
like ticket sales have never been so high. To me, that's like, that's

785
00:49:40,538 --> 00:49:44,177
an indicator. People are looking to get out, to go somewhere.

786
00:49:44,626 --> 00:49:48,360
And yes, the grocery store is one of those places. The restaurant

787
00:49:48,488 --> 00:49:51,502
feels a little expensive these days for, to them for some reason.

788
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,551
You know, more and more people are bringing wine, you know, to get corkage

789
00:49:57,304 --> 00:50:00,750
because it's cheap, it's less expensive, and more restaurants are

790
00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:04,471
allowing it. to happen, and they're not as surprised and offended by it

791
00:50:04,471 --> 00:50:07,518
because, uh, the industry has changed so radically.

792
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,769
But what, you know, we're already at almost an hour, which is incredible. Of course,

793
00:50:11,785 --> 00:50:15,584
with you, that's very easy. This is all your fault. So

794
00:50:15,648 --> 00:50:18,915
what, what's next for HSP?

795
00:50:19,465 --> 00:50:23,156
What do you have in your brain to continue to augment

796
00:50:23,334 --> 00:50:27,073
this experiential side of wine? Because I think it's— I think

797
00:50:27,238 --> 00:50:30,895
It's almost like we're going backwards to when wine really was just an experience.

798
00:50:30,976 --> 00:50:33,938
And I'm going to liken it like this before we answer the question.

799
00:50:35,580 --> 00:50:38,427
Even 2 nights ago when we had this Haut-Bailly tasting,

800
00:50:39,636 --> 00:50:43,035
it's always interesting to me, even with people that say wine's

801
00:50:43,035 --> 00:50:46,596
intimidating, I don't know anything about it. And certainly when you walk

802
00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:50,287
down an aisle at pavilions, you are confused and just

803
00:50:50,287 --> 00:50:52,824
like you want to throw your arms up. How are you supposed to choose? Yeah.

804
00:50:53,870 --> 00:50:56,249
But at the same time, when I have dinner with

805
00:50:57,194 --> 00:51:00,893
oenophiles and people that are novices, the conversation

806
00:51:00,989 --> 00:51:04,836
always comes around to wine, but it's not an intimidating conversation

807
00:51:04,869 --> 00:51:08,667
at that point. And maybe that's the success of what you're doing,

808
00:51:09,150 --> 00:51:12,611
is that non-intimidating conversation where somebody can actually ask a question

809
00:51:13,046 --> 00:51:16,765
and not feel like they're going to get some kind of solemn, I've been all

810
00:51:16,765 --> 00:51:20,556
over the world type of conversation. Yeah. I mean, I

811
00:51:20,767 --> 00:51:23,670
just think you, Paul, get it.

812
00:51:24,513 --> 00:51:28,061
I really, you just get it. And when I built

813
00:51:28,061 --> 00:51:31,708
CHW, like it, every tool that we

814
00:51:31,708 --> 00:51:35,306
built digitally was about feeling more connected and

815
00:51:35,822 --> 00:51:39,420
removing the anxiety, right? Like

816
00:51:39,452 --> 00:51:43,259
just remove the anxiety. And I totally agree with you.

817
00:51:43,388 --> 00:51:46,946
Like, I mean, Yeah. when I talk, when I'm pouring wine, I

818
00:51:47,462 --> 00:51:50,087
like the anxiety I see in

819
00:51:50,908 --> 00:51:54,646
consumers when I pour wine versus when I'm pouring tequila is like

820
00:51:54,695 --> 00:51:58,311
palpable. Wow. I didn't even think of that. What a diff— what an

821
00:51:58,407 --> 00:52:01,426
irony you must see between the two because no one's gonna walk

822
00:52:01,426 --> 00:52:04,712
in and worry about tequila, but wine, they're going, I don't know. I don't know

823
00:52:04,712 --> 00:52:08,313
if I like this. I don't know. Well, they're just like, did I, am I

824
00:52:08,459 --> 00:52:12,292
tasting it right? And it's like, It doesn't matter what you're

825
00:52:12,308 --> 00:52:16,114
like. It's, do you like it? Like, if you don't like it,

826
00:52:16,627 --> 00:52:19,453
it sucks. Do you know what I mean? If you don't, if it's not good,

827
00:52:19,614 --> 00:52:22,954
you don't like it. That's all that matters. But there's just, there's,

828
00:52:23,612 --> 00:52:27,449
but wine is beautiful and it is complex and it does require, requires— It is.

829
00:52:27,963 --> 00:52:31,190
And you can't simplify it. It's really hard.

830
00:52:31,881 --> 00:52:35,686
Totally. I'm totally with you. Such an honor again, uh,

831
00:52:36,296 --> 00:52:39,766
To have you, and we'll look forward to the next time

832
00:52:40,007 --> 00:52:43,541
when we hear the next venture that you have

833
00:52:43,541 --> 00:52:47,204
embarked on, because you're making a difference. And that's the, that's the whole thing

834
00:52:48,441 --> 00:52:52,007
with what you've been doing. Every time you make a move, it's, it's

835
00:52:52,135 --> 00:52:55,734
to raise the level of communication in the wine trade. And that's what we

836
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:58,818
need. We need it all the time. It's just part of it. And I think

837
00:52:58,818 --> 00:53:02,593
it's, I think it's a noble pursuit. Obviously, you're in it for business. You

838
00:53:02,641 --> 00:53:06,110
may want to make a profit. You, you don't want to maintain your

839
00:53:06,110 --> 00:53:09,890
family, but there's a passion about you and what

840
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:13,490
you do. And that's, you can't, you can't discount

841
00:53:13,490 --> 00:53:17,070
that at all. And you can't, you can't monetize it. You just have to do

842
00:53:17,070 --> 00:53:20,830
it. And it's great. I feel the same about you. So let's go do some

843
00:53:20,830 --> 00:53:23,970
tastings together. What do you think? Well, we're coming up.

844
00:53:24,090 --> 00:53:27,710
Um, I think like early September, I've got a bunch of

845
00:53:27,710 --> 00:53:31,550
podcasts to do. There's some interesting things going on in Napa, but since we got

846
00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:35,040
a couple more minutes, I was talking to— Oh, tell me.

847
00:53:35,140 --> 00:53:38,600
They, they, you know, JCB closes Atelier and

848
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,080
Yonfil, and this other woman took it over.

849
00:53:42,940 --> 00:53:45,900
Yeah. And it sounded like it sound— and then Josh Phelps was telling me a

850
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:48,640
little bit about it. I didn't quite understand what the role was, but it seems

851
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,400
to be coming due here to open. It's a— I think wineries

852
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,540
get together, it's the Founders Room or something, and they come in and it's like

853
00:53:55,540 --> 00:53:59,200
there's always a winemaker to hang around and you have those conversations like you're

854
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,040
talking about. I don't know. Oh, that's really interesting. The last time

855
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,780
we were in Napa, we went to The Promise, which is Stephen McPherson and

856
00:54:06,780 --> 00:54:10,400
his wife. They were the president of ABC TV for a long

857
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:14,180
time. They wanted the lifestyle, and they're doing very well, actually,

858
00:54:14,180 --> 00:54:17,920
with this club-only type experience. It's all about the

859
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,390
experience, and it's not a cheap one. But you go there,

860
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,260
they make their own prosciutto with the hogs on the ranch. I

861
00:54:25,260 --> 00:54:28,520
mean, it's pretty amazing stuff. And he said— What is the name? What's the name

862
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,160
of it? It's called The Promise. The Promise. It's not like,

863
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,960
what's the name? What was the lake you were talking about? Berryessa. Yeah, it's not

864
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,700
that one. It's the one before it above

865
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,900
Stag's Leap

866
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:44,960
District. Okay. I think it's a man-made lake.

867
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,280
I think I know where you're talking about. It's around there somewhere. Okay. But

868
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,680
he's, we were talking— Not Clear Lake,

869
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,440
right? It's not near Clear Lake. No, it's special in that respect. Okay. Anyway,

870
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,953
they were talking about, Uh, and his tasting room

871
00:54:59,953 --> 00:55:03,643
manager was talking about the fact that the hotels have— are

872
00:55:03,756 --> 00:55:07,333
living with 30% occupancy because they can, uh,

873
00:55:07,802 --> 00:55:11,175
charge the same amount and have less workers.

874
00:55:11,837 --> 00:55:14,902
And so, um, it's kind of like your idea, you know, if you raise the

875
00:55:14,902 --> 00:55:17,580
price of the wine, you're going to get more margin, but you'll sell less. And

876
00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:21,253
maybe that extra margin is worth the less volume. You're not discounting anymore, right?

877
00:55:21,865 --> 00:55:25,570
So in this case— I mean, it goes— it applies to lower price too. I

878
00:55:25,570 --> 00:55:29,134
mean, I mean, I'm And that— but the pull-through of

879
00:55:29,182 --> 00:55:32,953
that is, if it's true, is then the tasting rooms don't have, have

880
00:55:32,969 --> 00:55:36,307
30% less traffic because there's 30% less people in the hotel rooms.

881
00:55:37,302 --> 00:55:40,880
And so I, I was kind of distressed about that because, you know,

882
00:55:41,473 --> 00:55:44,955
in some cases the tasting room traffic is the traffic for

883
00:55:45,164 --> 00:55:48,935
many of these wineries. Yeah. And their retail sales and their club,

884
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,481
uh, lead generation. That's— it's all tied up in one place.

885
00:55:52,930 --> 00:55:56,714
So we hope we pull out of this and And people

886
00:55:56,714 --> 00:56:00,400
go back to Napa to witness what you've witnessed, which is this

887
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,493
beautiful valley of— Oh my God.

888
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:08,444
I mean, it's same Sonoma. It's just, it is magical. It

889
00:56:08,556 --> 00:56:11,585
is just genuinely magical. I really,

890
00:56:12,338 --> 00:56:15,639
it's just, it's expensive to get out, you know, for a lot of people who

891
00:56:15,863 --> 00:56:19,565
are coming outside of California, but within California,

892
00:56:19,629 --> 00:56:23,398
it feels like it should be A little more reasonable. I also,

893
00:56:23,558 --> 00:56:27,218
I mean, I, I also think at retail they should be letting people

894
00:56:27,587 --> 00:56:30,428
know that you can go visit tasting rooms, which is

895
00:56:31,182 --> 00:56:34,681
again, you know, another part of what can happen in

896
00:56:34,794 --> 00:56:37,843
off-premise. It's kind of like, I don't want to get off the call, but I

897
00:56:37,843 --> 00:56:41,551
got to get off the call. Go. So good to see you,

898
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:45,146
my friend. Thank you so much for having me on. And we'll see you soon.

899
00:56:45,243 --> 00:56:46,559
All right. Bye. Cheers.