He Was Told To Get His Affairs In Order. Not So Fast Says Jean-Noel of Chateau Potelle

0:00 We had a visitor and he asked me, how did you rate wine? Well, I think rating is an American disease. You rate a Super bowl, there's a winner and a loser. But in my world, you don't rate emotions. And wine is something that gives you emotions. You don't rate pleasure. When you make love to your wife, you don't say, honey, it was 87. I hope tomorrow we can make 95. Okay, sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are at an away game today way up in the Napa Valley, about to have a conversation with Jean Noel Fourmeaux, an old friend in the business.

0:41 Hey, have a listen to a couple of shows that just released. One was Zach Armand and he is a importer of Armenian wines into America. It's an incredible story of a young man who wants to get into this business. Have a listen to that and give us a good review. If you don't have a good review, don't bother doing it. Please subscribe. That's how us podcasters keep our egos in check. We need the listeners, but not why we're here. Here to talk to Jean Noel again because it's been so long and it's so great to be here. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much. It has been a long time. It's been a long time. And this is Chateau Potelle and I was looking at our newsletter and we had engaged each other in 1998. That's a long time ago. Oh, no, I'm still very young. Oh, yeah. I appreciate that because I agree with you. And we were, you know, this particularly, the wine industry is so confused right now. And I love the story. I just love the fact that here you were, you came to America. Well, let's go over that.

1:45 For your family's Bordelaise. Yes. And you were born in the wine trade. Yes. That's unusual, isn't it, for being America to pick up roots and leave to come to Napa? Yeah, I think it's unusual, but my friends in France, even before I came to America, told me all the time that I was not completely French. You know, I think France is fantastic. It's an absolutely great country, many traditions, but the French were and probably are a little more, but less than before, a little narrow minded.

2:28 And I created my first business by accident when I was 21 and it was a success. And in France when I sold it, because I decided to come here because I had been sent by the French government To spy. And I decided to come here. I told my dad when he said, why do you sell your business and you go away? I said, because in France, you need to be 60 years old to have a right to talk at the table. That's early. And I have something to say. So I am lazy and I go to where I can do something at 30 and not being, you know, check every two seconds.

3:14 So it's a beautiful country, but it has so much tradition that sometimes it's difficult to go out of it. At least at my time, it was difficult to go out of this tradition. And I needed fresh air. Has it changed at all, you think? I would say. My friends now say that it's not 60 years old to have a right to talk, but it's 50. It's 50. So. So, yes, we made from progress. Yeah, for him, he gets to speak. But, you know, it has been fantastic because when I came here in 72, first for the wine, then in 1980, I love that pioneer spirit that exists in America. I love the fact that you can if you want.

4:03 It's not the rules, our rules, you know, remember, I've been here now 44 years. So it's a long time. And America has changed as well as French had changed in 44 years. But at that time in France, you know, it was. If you are not part of a system, you cannot really go. And I was born in the vineyard. But there were so many things that you had to do, because your grandfather does it that way, did it that way, and I respect my grandfather, but, you know, you have to go. Go by the. The rule of the time. Yes. So here it was good for me because nobody gave a. About my grandfather. They never heard of your grandfather. Yeah, so. So, yeah, I moved. Were you in the wine business before you left? What you sold, was it wine or was it something else? No, I was official wine taste, but I was not. The business I created had nothing to do with wine, really.

5:03 I have some customer in wine, but it was just an idea and it worked. So. But that's why also I wanted to sell it and come back into my roots, which was the wine, because I have never left the wine. It just that that business was just a crazy idea. It worked and. And you never looked back, huh? No. Do you go back very often? Yes, I love it. I. I love France. I think it's a beautiful country. People are absolutely delightful. You know, it's interesting because when I arrived here in the United States in 1980, people were telling me, oh, France you must be arrogant. And I say, have you been to Boston lately?

5:49 But, you know, all these are pictures of things. But I take customers because, as you know, we sell our wines only to private people. We are not in stores or restaurants. So every year I take customers traveling with me in France, in South Africa, in Argentina. And when I take them to Bordeaux, they say, wow, we did not expect that. It's not the image, the idea we have of France. We have France a little more contrarian, a little more rigid. And no, it's not true at all. The people are generous, they're hospitable, they want to share.

6:29 Because our culture of wine is very different. You know, it is culture. It is a culture for us. And it's not a rating or it's not to try to have poems to please this or that writer. It is because you open a bottle because you have a friend who just arrived, and what the best way to share a good bottle than with a friend. So it's a very different culture, and I love that culture to a culture we don't have here. It's an interesting cultural divide. I'm jealous of the French culture. I would live in Paris if I could. And I'm jealous of the structure, the protection of the wine, the protection of the butter, protection of the. Of the cheese, the appellation control type idea. And it's. It's always been that America, Napa is the new World. And you can do, as you said, anything you want. You come and try, and you can grow Zinfandel if you want, in the Napa Valley and see if it works. And that's.

7:27 It's. It's. I guess it's always. The grass is always greener, you know, on the other side, when you look at it. Yeah. So in France, definitely, there are some contraints. It's interesting because just a few minutes ago, I was talking with some customers, club members who are visiting, but they were in Burgundy in October. They made a bike trip, and they told me, gee, I did not realize that in France you cannot buy grapes. I said, no. Do you know why? They understood that it was to protect the terroir. I said, yes, it's to protect where the wine comes from. So that when you buy a bottle of Pollini, Montrachet, Le Pucelle, you know that it's coming from there. When you buy a bottle of Leoville Poiferet from Saint Julien in Bordeaux, they don't buy grapes. They cannot buy grapes. Therefore, if they have a bad year, they will make less Wine, but they cannot buy grape to compensate. Here you buy grapes, you melt that. And finally, that's misleading to the consumer because it's still the same label. Let's say X Caber, called Cabernet Sauvignon, but it can be 25% of cabernet from the Central coast or any other appellation. Or it can be just because you have more business and you want to increase, you blend something that is no longer your identity. That's why all the wines of Chateau Botel are vineyard designated.

8:59 We don't blend anything else than that vineyard. And if a year is bad, too bad. But we are not buying grapes. We are not blending. Because I want people to trust what. The product that we deliver year after year, and some years, they are not as great than the year before. That's the beauty of nature and the beauty of wine. Do you think that's a. I'm glad you brought that up. It's an important part of the difference of the industry between countries, mostly Old World versus New World. But that for the consumer, that's. It is a little misleading because, like, I just learned that the class. The.

9:39 The Madoc classification, 1855, is classified the chateau, not the vineyard. And then the classification of Santa Milon is the. The ground as well. And so it seemed a little misleading that. That a chateau like Lagrange or something could go by grapes from anywhere down the street and put it in their blend and still cannot. They cannot. They can't. No, no, because that's the classification. The classification of 1985. Excuse me. 1885 was made on reputation of the wine at the time. Right. And price, thinking that price was following reputation. But you cannot buy grapes in Bordeaux. Non, navigate my family chateau, we cannot buy grapes. It's still legal. Oh, yeah, you're right. Okay, so what I'm thinking is that the, The. It could be a vineyard you own, but down. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So it's. So it's still, you know, if you produce Leoville Poifere or Chateau Margaux, you produce that from what you own, right? Not what you buy. Yes. Okay, that's interesting, but I, So I wondered because, you know, America, we're not culturally.

10:54 Culturally attuned to wine. Have you seen a shift in that since you've been here for 44 years and you're right on Highway 29 and you see the traffic, you see the consumer traffic and the tourism is it. Has there been a shift to appreciate finer wines? So is this too slow? I think in America, but you Know, evolution of taste is always slower. Yeah. And because many of my customers, or customers your age, what do they drink in. In college? Landfills? Rose. The younger generation drink more. The white Zin fondant. Yes. And this is great because the more you drink, the more you know what you are going to like. I believe that in order to understand wine and your taste, you need to drink and you drink diversity. Because if you are mono vintage or mono sepiage, mono varietal, you don't know. It's like staying in California and not traveling to Tennessee. Other people are still American, but they are goddamn different.

12:01 That's true. Because the story, the tradition, the food, the hospitality, all these things are different, yet they are still American. But you need to travel to understand the differences. Or you need to taste more different wines in order to understand the beauty, the panache of a wine. That you have so many differences. And that a cabernet is not a Cabernet, it's a Cabernet from Chateaubratet, it's a Cabernet from Faumu, it's a Cabernet from that. Because technically, what we have to do is respect the birthplace. Where is it coming from? You know, I truly believe that what makes us individual, richer is that we have a birthplace. And again, the people of Tennessee are so damn different. As a matter of fact, you can say in America, you say in America, a girl, you can take a girl out of the south, but you cannot take the south out of a girl. Which is a good thing, I think. Okay. I think it's a good thing. But that's what terroir is about. And. And that's why me, I've been 43 years now, because last year, 1920, 23, we celebrated our 40th vintage. Four. Zero. Wow, that's a long whatever.

13:19 So I am a Mount Video guy. All our wines are coming from Mount Vidor. They are estate designation from Mount Vidor. Each parcel. And I'm not buying grapes to blend to that because I'm producing not a Napa Valley, I'm producing a Mount Video in Napa Valley. Was that your philosophy when you came here? Now, you came from Bordeaux, so you understood that that was very important part of our wine trade. But you, you go to the supermarket today, and there's none of that, Right? None of the thing in the supermarket is. Is designated the way you're talking about. You know, some things are, but they're very mono. The palate is very monolithic. It just kind of up and down. Oops, up and down. Of a supermarket. It's the same. It doesn't matter what the brand is, it's got the same. And have you felt that impact in Chateau Patel or your customers are driven by your brands. You don't sell to restaurants, which is very interesting. You don't sell retail. It's all club.

14:14 That's the fascinating thing. So you probably haven't felt this turn. So culturally, wine is not American, it's a choice. Then wine became fashionable in America, which means. I can tell you a funny story that I am invited by one of our customers who is an extremely successful person, billionaire because for the warming house. And when I arrive, this is a person that buys around $10,000 of wine from us here. And when I arrived in the new house, he had a wall 15 meters long for the wine cellar. And I can see cases, wooden cases of ex wine here. You know, big name, 1500 dollars bottle brand and you know, vintage after vintage. And I look at him, I say, where is your VGs? And he said, oh no, your stuff is good. I drink it. And I said, but have you tasted these wines? No. I said let's open it.

15:25 I know you are going to break my case. Oh, and finally my biggest pride at Potel is after 43 years here, I have no wine on ebay. But you can find all these wines on ebay because they are glamorous wine that people buy fifteen hundred dollars and things like that. What interesting thought. And this is the wine that you can buy on auction. Yeah, you can go to next this weekend auction on Art Davis and Art. And you are going to find Screaming Eagle, Arlong Bon, all these wines that are prestigious wines but nobody buy to drink. That's an interesting thought. And me, I don't do that. I tell my customer, me, I open a bottle of wine. A bottle of wine is for drinking whatever. It's an Aubrey on at $600 or Margot at $1,500. It's for drinking? Yes. It's not for ego. And that's a problem is that a lot of wine has been purchased for status and ego. Do you think the French did that? No, we drink too much. I mean the, the like. Well, the other night I. I'll admit. Well, first of all, when I sold the company and because of coid, we were doing incredibly well, I was buying all kinds of stuff because they would buy whatever I told them to buy. And so I snuck in some Cheval Blanc and some Angelou and stuff like that. And so the buyer didn't want any of it. He just wanted my stuff that I sold for $12 to $15.

16:53 And I end up with 2,500 bottles of classified growth Bordeaux and some Grand Cru Burgundy, et cetera. And I almost bit, I almost succumbed to that mentality because it's in my. I built the cellar in the house. You can walk in, you can see this, and I have it all displayed. And I tell myself, boy, if I open that I won't have it anymore. And that's not a good mentality. No, no, it's a terrible mentality. No. Because you need to enjoy that bottle. That's right. What's the point of looking at it? Absolutely. May have a different attitude. When my friends arrive at home, I tell them, go to the seller, take what you want. Oh, wow.

17:34 Knowing the fact that at my house, I only bring the wine that I consider ready to be drank. Yes. So so far we are drinking 1990s Bordeaux. Wow. Beautiful. You cannot stick it to any 10 because it's still in the warehouse edging. So. But I think, you know that the freedom, it's open a bottle that you know you are going to discover and, and you enjoy. And that's the thing that I, I think why Chateau hotel customers are so loyal to our brand is because first, our wines are good. My motto is perfection without pretension. It's not, you know, okay, making, making your job good. It's, it's normal that you make your job good. My job is to make wine. Okay. I'm a perfectionist. I make every bottle of wine here because we've, we know with me blending it and that's it. I mean, now let's enjoy where did all this. I mean, yes, the classification of 1855 created the five growth and blah, blah, blah. But even today when I tasted at Ingle Nook, I tasted a $265 bottle of Rubicon, I tasted a 395 bottle of $ bottle of Cathiard. And you know, and then when I opened the Cheval Blanc the other night for my wife's birthday, you know, a thousand dollars worth retail, and my son in law says, do you really think that it's, you know, 50

19:06 times better than a, you know, if 20 times better than a $50 wine or whatever. And I said, no, I think that'd be hard to justify that, you know, a good quality $50 wine. But you can tell your friends you drank Cheval Blanc. So in between, you know, that idea, how is that developed in France that, you know, we're going to. Because you can't cost that much more to make Cheval Blanc or Lafitte or anybody else than its neighbor, which is using barrels and pruning the vineyards the same way. Where does that pretension come from? So I think, Paul, in our business, there is a huge aspect that is the cost of quality.

19:49 You can go to Chanel in Paris or in New York or San Francisco and buy a suit. It costs you 10,000 bucks or something, whatever it is. You go to Hong Kong and you buy a Chanel suit on the window, which is an imitation, but it looks exactly the same. But yet when you take your sleeve upside down, you know, and you look at the inside of a sleeve, it's not the same. No, luxury is in the detail. And the detail are expensive. That's why a bottle of wine is expensive. Take an example we do here at Chateaubratel. Free Cabernets. The VGS Cabernet Mount Vida cost $215 a bottle. The FOMO Red cost 3.75. The same.

20:47 Or, excuse me, it's the same bottle. Okay. Except it's not the same grape served there. It's not the same inside, same winemaker. For example, in a ton of grapes, Cabernet, you could extract 160 gallons. The fo I extract 118 gallons. Wow. 40% less. Which means basically my ton of grapes is a third of the price already. Yeah. In the Cabernet VGS, we extract around 142 gallons. Still 22% less. Yes. So a lot. What we do in Potel 2, we extract around 152 gallons. So that's a cost of quality. Yes. Why is that?

21:39 If you look at a berry of grapes, I want berry to be round, small and uniform in terms of color, sometimes because of the weather, you arrive at harvest and you have half a berry that has a brown. The skin is no longer red is brown because it got like you. When you go to the beach and you have a sunburn, that part of a sunburn of a grape berry is no longer going to contribute of tannins and color, but it's going to contribute in juice. But I'm not interested in juice. I am interested in the whole thing. The juice, if it has the tannin and the color that goes with it. Okay. That's why we have to make that drastic selection. That takes time, energy, money. It takes time. It's money. It's grapes that are delicious, by the way, because we put them in our bottle too. They are delicious. But when you want to go to the Highest luxury product. There is no excuse.

22:46 You have to be consistent in your parameters of quality. And therefore, for FOMO Red, I'm using 118 ton. 18 gallons per ton. Wow. Big difference. So it start there, it goes in the vineyard. Because you want your grapes to be completely balanced at some years, it means that you need to do what we call green harvest, which means harvesting some fruit, letting down some fruit before the total verisin. Because you want the balance of the vine to be beautiful. Because it's like you. Sometimes you work too hard, you are tired. You have no longer the same energy and concentration and peace of mind.

23:34 You want to give your vine that peace of mind, that energy to satisfy every berries on that, on that vines. And that is not necessarily the case every year. No. Therefore, the job starts in the vineyard because I want everybody of the cluster to be there as good as the other guys, so that it doesn't diminish the quality of the neighbor. So it's a lot of work. Was this your founding philosophy? I mean, it would. Look, I'm going to shock you because I don't think it's. I don't think it was unusual for the price, but in 1998, we sold that Zinn for 9.99 and you could get extra at 899. Now that's a huge difference. I'm going to suggest that this is. I don't know what the current Zin sells for. What does it sell for? Okay, so I'm just guessing that's just a sign of the times and the cost of manufacturing and all the other things that go along with it. That was the retail. But also at that time it was a Chateau Botel Zinfandel. It was not the VGS Chateau bottle.

24:47 Now all our wines are vgs. Okay, tell me that story again because I think it's important for the listeners to hear the difference. Because when I met you in 1995 or 1998 and we did that transaction, we wrote the story about you coming from Bordeaux and starting the vineyard doing 275 acres, whatever it was. Yeah. So, but this is not the same place. No. And it's not the same philosophy. VGS for me. So first of all, the story of VGs, how did it arrive? The name Chateau Botel, the name of the. Historically, the name of the winery is my 900 years old family chateau in France. The reason I selected my name is because, honestly, I did not want my name on the label and because I thought it was representing my values and my French traditions. And I was arriving in a country that had no mentor. I was not an expat. I had absolutely no clue, except that I knew I was in a Pavari making wine. But I was not expected by anybody. Nobody was there to greet you at the train station. At the train station and tell me, this is our country. This is how it works, you know? Yes. I had no credit card.

25:58 I had no permit. I had no id. I had nothing. When I rented a house, I had to pay 18 months cash upfront. When I bought a car, I had to pay the car full in cash because I had no credit card and checkbook. And they did not believe me, you know, So I needed wow. And I had no credit reference, so. So I started on the tough way. So I think I took that name because it was my values, my tradition. Then one day at the winery, we had a visitor. And he asked me, he said, when you are official wine tester for French government, how did you rate wine? Well, I think rating is an American disease.

26:39 You rate a Super bowl with a winner and a loser. It's easy, right? But in my world, you don't rate emotions. And wine is something that gives you emotions. You don't rate pleasure. Great. As I told one day to. That's a great point, wine writer. When you make love to your wife, you don't say, honey, it was 87. I hope tomorrow we can make 95. Okay, it's not like that. That it works. Okay. We have some days we are better and do better. So. So I look at the guy, I did not want to say. And finally I say, good shit, bad sheet. I said, but this is very good shit. I say, oh, no problem. Whatever. I go to sleep.

27:22 And the day after, we had three times more visitors at the testing room. So I go to see and I ask the people, I say, what are you doing here? Why so many people? And one guy look at me say, we heard it was very good shit. We want some. So then I decided, that's hilarious. I decided to change the name of the winery to Good Shit to Chateau Potelle My French Values and tradition. And add VGA's very good sheet mimic and education. Oh, come on. So that's the way it went. Now that is hilarious. And that became basically a switch in our production. Yes. And in our wines. So that the wines that were wearing the very good sheet label.

28:11 Yes. Had to be the top, top, top quality. Yes. When we made the first time, we are still. We are. We're doing some VGs for Chardonnay and Cabernet. We're still doing some of the other wines that were not on VGS label. Now everything is on VGS label. So the Chata Potelle label is no longer exists. The VGS Chata, which was a great label, I remember, great, beautiful label. But now the label is VGA Chateau. That is a fascinating story. And so you mentioned before we started that you. I said, is this the same 275 acres, 276 acres that you started with? And you said no, because you, you were, you fell ill at some point and you needed to liquidate everything. And what, how, how stressful was that to you to.

29:03 To take all of this effort, starting with landing here and no one to pick you up at the train station, to selling off everything. You had to hopefully survive at that point. But, you know, I was dying. Yes, we were dying. I was not even hopefully dying, leaving because the doctors say, put your things in order. So I just did not want my children to face. Because they were still, you know, in their 20s. So I did not want them to confront that difficult world. At that time, we were 50% partner in a winery in Argentina. We had a winery in Paso Robles. We had Chateau Botel. So I decided to sell everything but the name, because the name Chateau hat is my 900 year old familiar chateau. And I did not want anybody to take that. So I sold everything, went through my. That was at my second cancer. It was in 2007. And then in 2009 I had my third cancer. And then I was proposed to follow an experiment. And that experiment, for me, saved my life. Amazing. So I am now exhausted physically, psychologically, emotionally, because six years of. Seven years of treatment is exhausting. But I was alive.

30:34 And when I went back on track and I was happy and good again, I said, what do I do with my life? The only thing I know is wine. Yeah. So I restarted again, basically in 2000. I bought this building in 2012 to recreate completely the experience of Chateaubortain back to the vineyards so that I'm still on Mount Video. And basically now we are here and there. Did you go back to the. To who you sold to and say, hey, I want to buy it back maybe? No, because it's a big company. Oh, big company. Now I see them on a regular basis and I say, you know, I. I buy you for half the price. You bought me? Yeah, we did not work.

31:19 That's not very French. Well, that's very French what you did, but it's not very American, you know, that is, that's an amazing story because you, it's, it's almost impossible to express the stress you must have been going through, the anxiety, the unknown. And here you are with an experimental drug, not understanding what the ramifications are going to be. Your. Your life's in disarray and, and to come back and produce a brand like vgs, which I just can't. I can't wait to tell the story. And as successful as it now basically regen the whole thing all over again, that is, I don't care what industry you're in. That is not easy to do.

32:00 No, no, but it's, it's good. It's good first of all because it shows that as long as you have life, you can do a lot of things. It's also good because it allowed me to change the standards of a winery. Interesting. Shift it without having to shift it. Yes. And that's where I decide to come 100% direct to consumer. Because I love Americans and I hate the point system. Not because I don't like points. I don't give a shit, whatever. Yeah. But because every American has a taste and the pound system kills the taste. And I tell my customer all the time, you are celebrating your 30th anniversary. You open a great bottle of wine. The wine is fantastic because it's a moment of joy. Three months later, your wife tell you she divorced, and you have the same bottle of wine. Do you think it tastes the same? So, you know, I use a.

33:03 I use an example like that, but that's much more dramatic. I like it. So is it really the wine that should be 98, or is it your mood? Yes. Because you cannot have a good bottle of wine if you are in a 62 mood. 62 point mood. That's right. You can only have. Enjoy a good bottle if you are in a good mood. Because no wine tastes good when you are where you are in bad mood. I can't tell you how many times in the 35 years that somebody came from Europe, they were sitting at the Parthenon or the Coliseum having a glass of wine. They get the wine from the waiter, they call me, they can. Can you get this? I get it for them. Same vintage, same brand. And they call me back and say, you know, it didn't taste the same. I said, that's because you're home and your kids are pulling on your shirt tails and you're having this, the fight with your husband. And, and it. You're not on vacation in Italy, you know, that's just the way it is. And that's a really good point. I like your example better. I'm going to use that one. No, but it's.

33:59 It's so true. Yeah. And we are species of the basic, different culture between French and American is that in America, people are raised to be successful and make money. We are not raised to have fun and enjoy. That's true. Okay. Therefore, that's interesting. They are tense towards making money. Instead of being tense enjoying a nice bottle of wine. Me, I tell my customer, you work to make money. Me, I work to spend it. And in that, you have a difference of culture. That's true. My culture is about enjoying life. Yes, you need to make money, but enjoying it, because every day is a new day. Every day can bring shit of beauty.

34:53 Every bottle of wine deserve to be open and to be cherished and to be shared. And that word, to me, the point system killed the pleasure also because it was too much American. So it comforted the American into that system of success. You buy a Bottle because it's $400.50, and you can show that to your friends. That's it. And naturally, when you have a dinner with friends and you start by saying it's 100 points from Robert Parker and $600, nobody has a brain anymore. You're right, because the taste buds have been killed. You know, and that's not what one is about.

35:33 Wine is about saying, this is wine. It doesn't need to be talked about. The largest transaction of my career was a piece of real estate in Southern California. I won't bore you with the details, but it got to the point where I told the developer, if you close on this like you promised, I will give you two bottles of DRC Latash. And he closed. It wasn't even his money. It was your. It was Asian money. The next day, he was at my office. He took those two DRCs, he put them in a cellar. He's got one of those biometric sellers. You put your thumb on the door and the door opens. And the next day he had dinner at his house. He took people to the cellar to show them the cellar. And he was offered like 17 or $18,000 for the two bottles. And that made him very proud. He goes, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't sell them. They were a gift. But that's exactly what you're talking about. It was more about the prestige of the wine than, you know, the. The pleasure of the wine. Right. And that's an amazing. You know what, what Counts is I have. You know, when you are a winery owner, you entertain a lot. And I have people coming to my house and I say, okay, what. What do we drink now? And I opened a 1999 Shiraz from Australia. Or I opened 1948 port. Wow. Yes. And these are memories for everybody. That's right. Including for me, as a matter of fact. Okay. Because I have that bottle of wine and

37:07 you enjoy it with friends, you share it, and you created memories for all the friends around the table. And to me, that's what wine is about. There's nothing else like that though, is there? No, you don't. Because a piece of art is made to be admired. Wine is a piece of art, which means to be shared. Yes. So it's a very different thing. You can drink the damn thing and you are going to pee the damn thing too. A piece of art. A piece of art. You are going to keep it and. Look at it and sell it, but. The wine will be a memory. I still have friends coming to a house or I go to her place and they talk about this 1947 port. Of course, 1948 port. And. But that's the beauty of wine. That's the beautiful. And I've never been able to articulate, you know, it's a grape.

37:53 And they. And I was having this conversation today at Inglenook. You know, we can discuss the tap roots and the micronutrient exchange and all that, but it doesn't. That explains how it happens. It doesn't explain why wine does what you're just saying. Why does it create these memories? Why is it a conversation 20 years later? I opened this 48 port with Jean Noel and it was unbelievable. Why does that happen? Looking for an answer. It happens because you have people like me today who are making wine with passion. And we're not making wine for today. I'm making wine for the person who is going to.

38:34 To drink it in five, 10, 20 years. And I tell you, my biggest pride is I can show you email that I receive every day from pictures I receive from customers saying, I am drinking the VGS Cabernet 1999. Best 99 I ever had. Is that rewarding or the other day? Oh, it's fantastic. The other day, the day after Christmas, I received that email from a very good customer who lost his seller during the fire, Palissa down there. And he said, you know, my wine group, 10 people, we have been drinking wine for 800 years. If we put the age together. And we love wine, we travel for wine at Christmas, everybody bought a bottle. All expensive, all very good. Yet he said, you would be interested to know that the wine that people have talked the most at night was the VGS Cabernet. Congratulations. That's beautiful.

39:32 But that's why I make wine, is because I want my customer. And I think they know that my customer know that I will never make a bottle of wine that I will not drink myself. Okay? It has to be good. Otherwise it goes to the sink. So that's why you have these wines that are memorable. It's because they did something for you at the moment you drink it. I suppose it's tied to the memory. You can't forget it. But it also has to have memory triggering character about it, which means it has to be made honestly. It has to represent a sense of place and time. It can't be a mundane. You know, let's just be honest about some of the wines that come out of Napa these days. It's just a monolith, you know, fruit bomb with some acid on the end. And it doesn't express anything except red wine.

40:26 And I think that has a lot to do with the difference between the VGS wine and what might come out of Napa. So we're, like, almost out of time. So I want to go through this because you've been kind enough to make this wonderful plate of paired hors d'oeuvres with some wines. But I have two Chardonnays in front of me. One of them is the VGS, and one of them is the 4mo. So what is the 4mo brand? They are made very differently. It's because I wanted to make a very different Chardonnay than the vgs. I wanted to make a more French, leaner style. I had to change the vineyard because on Mount Vidor, I cannot produce that. The wines are richer. And then instead of being parclet barrel fermented, this wine is made 40% in concrete egg.

41:16 Really? Wow. So it's a concrete tank that has a shape of an egg. Yeah, that's right. But it produces a different style. 30% is in stainless steel barrels of 80, 60 gallons. And 30% is in new French oak. Yeah, the oak is very subdued. So the egg, the characteristic of the egg is that because of the shape of the egg, the wine breathe because it's concrete, but the shape of the egg makes that the leaves are staying in suspension, and therefore it cleared that lushless sky there. That normally comes from oak, but it has no oak in it. No vanilla, then. No vanilla, then you have A stainless steel barrel that keep the wine very grapefruit. And then you have the French oak that gives the charm and the complexity. And this is the way I make the Fomo. So it's a wine that is only 30% barrel fermented. And, you know, you almost. The nose almost expresses every one of those methods. It's pretty interesting. Beautiful, yes. And it's. So it's a little leaner. It doesn't jump to you like that, but when you take it in your mouth, it's still a very full and rich wine.

42:35 A little bit. It's still leaner, and it is more French. You know, Burgundy, like, that's what it's not. But it's not Burgundy. We know this, right? It's got more opulence to it, but it's gorgeous structure to it. And the opulence is coming because we are in California. You're in California. We are warmer. We cannot do any of that. So I'm not trying to do a French wine. I am trying to do the best expression I can of a leaner Chardonnay that goes with also a very different type of food. It's gorgeous as a VGS that you. Have now, this is your main brand. Main brand, it is coming from Mount Zeder. It is barrel fermented and fermented in stainless steel barrels.

43:18 So it's basically today 75% French barrel and 25% stainless steel barrel. That's interesting. I've never, never discussed a 66 gallon or 60 gallon stainless steel barrel, so. Because before, people would do that in tanks. Yeah, the 1500 gallon thing. Yeah. But it doesn't give you what. What a smaller container gives, because in a smaller container, you have a lees. So you have a smaller amount of lees for you have a smaller amount of wine. Therefore, it affects the richness, the lusciousness of a mouth. So you can see these two wines are completely different. Totally different. Were kind enough to do this for me, and I really appreciate it, but I want to taste this with this Jerusalem artichoke velote with poached Maine lobster in Sunchoke crisps. This is a Jean Noel special. No, the food here is coming from a restaurant in Napa, which is a friend of mine called Latok. And all our food is coming from Latok. And we change the food basically every month so people can come.

44:29 Ken Frank. Ken Frank. He's been on the show. Oh, yeah. So we change the food and we every month. And we change also the food every time we change the Wine that we are tasting. When people come to taste here at Vigil Chateau Botel, they basically, we have four wines that are the regimen, and then we welcome them with a. And a little piece of salmon. And we finish always by a wine that might be a syrah, might be a ganacheiras, quinoise, might be the fomo. It depends of the what? During the conversation, we have seen the customer orientation. So it might not be the same wine for everybody around the table, but it's gorgeous. And how is latok doing? I know that during. I sat with them during COVID so it was a whole different experience. But has he rebounded from all this? Yeah, Latoque, you know, is one of the top restaurants, is definitely French cuisine.

45:36 Ken and I, we, I guess, will share the perfection without pretension film. So the food is beautiful and the. Attitude is, well, he's part of the, you know, the renaissance of American cuisine Los Angeles. And, you know, he has a very firm opinion and passion about it, which was really refreshing to hear when I spoke with him. So we have to go back there. So we have this, the VGS Zinn. So this is the, you know, the post Chateau Potel Zinn. And you paired it with the pork relay of it. I mean, with the apple compote and garlic aioli and on sourdough. So how is this zin different than the original Chateau Patel? It's first of all, zinfandel. Zinfandel cruster weights around four pounds, really a cabernet cluster.

46:30 Weight maximum a pound, really four times. Because of the number of berries or because the size. Because it's a very big cluster with very big berries that are tied together. And on the top of that is what we call a shoulder, which is another shoulder growing grapes. So because the cluster is so big, Zinfandel had a tendency to ripen unevenly. So one third is ripe, one third is underripe, one third is overripe. So basically, traditionally, winemakers that go versinfandel a little overripe to compensate for the underripe. I don't do that. We harvest our zinfandelin three different times. Basically between the first harvest of zin and the third, we have three weeks, sometimes four weeks. Wow, that's an interesting thought. The idea is that I want to harvest only what is ready to be harvested so that I do not have underripe and I do not have reasoning, because reasoning creates a lot of alcohol. And then that sweeter character, jammy character, more like if you have Eaten jam, which is. I'm not making jam, I'm making wine. So very logical.

47:55 And I love to serve my zine with fish because I want to show to people that a beautiful wine is a beautiful wine. It's not a heavy zine. People call that a Bordeaux, like type of zine, but it's a Zinfandel. So it's a Bordeaux, but it's a very elegant sign. I wanted to promote Zinfandel from a second class citizen to a first class citizen. Well, this structure is like no other. And so much of California Zinfandel, particularly from the Shenandoah Valley and other parts, the Sierra Nevadas are just. They're good and they express Zinfandel character. But they're huge. Yeah, this has very elegant structure for Zinfandel. I don't like huge in anything.

48:43 Yeah. I think when you are huge, you are missing the finesse. And for me, life is about finesse. It's about all the things that if it is huge would be hidden. Right. Because. Good point. But you have, you know, the volatile character that you need to want. You want to see and you don't see when the wine is huge. That's why I think Napa Valley Cabernet has really very little interest is because the wines are made in a big way. No, they should be made to respect the terroir and to enhance the grapes, not to kill them by over maturity or. And it's much made because people want to have a 98 points. Me, I don't give a about 98.

49:34 My wine is very good. And that's the only rating we have. We don't have any other ratings and vgs. So that's fine. I think we've established that you have very good shit here. And you know, my customers are the. We sell only to private people. Yes. So if they come back every year, there's a reason it must be very good shit. I have people that have been customer. I was on the phone with this morning with one that is 1987. Okay. We have club members here for 22 years. Wow, that's. That's extraordinary. So there must be something that's extraordinary quality of the wines, you know. So now we have the Chateau Patel 2. Yeah. Which is.

50:16 You're serving with the herb crusted lamb loin on polenta and romesco sauce. Is this a blend? Potel II is a wine I love to make and our customer love it because it's also the cheapest or least expensive overall wine. So I think it's the same price as zine, but it's a Cabernet base and it's Cabernet. It's pretty extractive. It has Zinfandel. It has some Syrah. Whoa, you crazy? Some petit Syrah. And it has a little bit of Malbec. Vous a foul we. And what I'm shooting with in the Potel 2 is an extremely beautiful, volatile, childish, joyful character coming out of a wine. It's seamless. Really? Yeah, it's seamless. I want a wine that you bring tonight to friends because.

51:09 And it will go with whatever food they serve, barbecue, pizza, or fish. But I want to also whine that, you know, it's a little bit like you arrive from work to home and the puppy is running to you, waving his tail. And, you know, childish, joyful. That's the nose. But then you sit down with a glass of wine, and the puppy come to put his head on your lap, and he met his presence felt. Yes. And I want the wine, when it is in your mouth to make it present felt. It does do that. It's Cabernet. So the blend change every year. Naturally. It is very cuddly wine. It's very soft. It sits on the palate nicely. It doesn't. It's not rushing you through the wine. No, because the Syrah and the Zinfandel make the wine also lively and aromatic. And the Syrah. So it's better the color too. You know, it doesn't have a similar tannin structure than a 100% cabernet.

52:10 So this is. This is one of our favorite of club members, because, as I say, you can bring that to anywhere, and it's always welcome. Beautiful. I'm supposed to have dinner later, but that's okay. This has appetizers. Oh, my God. It just. The AM is good. We stay in France too, so I'm so happy. Reminded me of Ken Frank. Because we have to go back. We haven't been for a while. When he was on the show, we discussed mostly the 80s and the renaissance of food in LA particularly, and he really wanted to talk about wine. So I promised him I'd come back and we'd discuss wine. Because Ken is one of a chef. That knows wine, that knows wine. A lot of chef don't know wine.

52:53 Yeah. That's why they hire what they call wine director. Yes. When Ken knows exactly his wine, he knows exactly. As a matter of fact, his wine and food pairing is one of the best that I know in the country. It's fantastic. And for that, La Talk is a great experience. So this is our Cabernet vgs. And our Cabernet is always a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot, and Malbe. There is no Merlot in two or Cabernets. The reason being that I don't find Merlot growing particularly well on Mount Vidur because our vineyards are 2,400ft elevation. And I don't find Merlot growing perfectly well as I find Petit Verdot and Malbec.

53:43 Explosing of flavors. Petit Verdot, that can be a grape that is green and very tannic for us because of our exposure. And. And we are cooler, so there is a longer time of maturing on the vines, is a grape that turned more floral with tannins that are very melted. It would. It was seeing that Merlot on that side of the valley would be earlier ripening, probably more juice than acid, even though it's not an acidic grape. That is not really an appropriate place for Merlot. Typically, we tried, and I was not happy, so we. We did not continue with Merlot. So it's four of the five Bordeaux varietals. Yeah. It's Chateau Potel and Bordeaux. Is it? What. What varietals were they growing there? The five. The five, you know. Yeah. This is gorgeous. And his pairing is amazing. This mushroom salad is really something. Yes. So you are going to have a next one, which is a formal red, very different. It's made with three grapes, only with a lot of Petit Verdot. So this is the Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and up to 28% of petit verdot.

55:00 Wow. And you are going to see it. Absolutely fabulous. Very different. Naturally, we have to make a different wine than the bgs Cabernet and gorgeous nose coming from. Oh, it's got the noses. It's not Petit Verdot, though, because that's not usually. No, but Petit Verdot plays there because Petit Verdot for us is very floral. Take an example, Paul, in 2023. I finished my harvest on Mont Vido on November 17th. November 17th. Four weeks after everybody in Napa Valley. Okay. I took a gamble and it paid. But that's where you.

55:42 That's what an owner winemaker does. It takes gamble. A winemaker employee maybe cannot take the gamble. But, you know, this wine is also extremely full dense, but never heavy. It's not heavy, but it's got layers. It has layers, which is the beauty of a Wine, it's like you and me and everybody. We have a personality and we may have one tray of character, but we have a lot of layers that make us more complex individuals. And that's what you want to find in the wine. It's one thing, but a lot of different things. At the time you smell and the time you put in your mouth, it's a symphony. And the symphony, when you go to the symphony, you need time to respect the flute and the cello before the big drums comes.

56:30 So that's what I want to have in the wine. And by the way, this wine, the FOMO red, was a wine that was the most expensive wine sold at the Napa Valley Barrel Auction three years in a row. Now I'm going to tell my wife that she needs to respect my layers. When she gets mad at me for something, though, she's a great girl, but this is quite stupendous. What vintage is this particular bottle? 2019. Excuse me. Phenomenal. That's what we serve you for. It's still good. 2018, the concentration. Now, you know, it's interesting because we talk about this Napa style that's evolved, that people pour. And I happily opened two bottles the other night because I had leftover inventory, and they express nothing. They're well made, good balance, good structure, but they express nothing. And these are major brands coming out of here. And here you have a wine like this that when you taste it, you realize you. You've left and gone somewhere else. Because to me, the beauty of the wine is not the attack in the mouth, it is the aftertaste. You know, it's like you have a dinner with friends or people that you. Some people that you don't know, and you have this person that you say, oh, he look fantastic. I want to see him again.

57:55 And the second time you see him again. Oh, yeah. And the third time you say, no, not boring, boring. Okay, that's Moscow's California for Napa. Valencabarne. Me, I want to be the guy that you say, I need a little more time. I would like to see him a second time, but I know there is something there. And then you discover and you grow. And that to me, what wine is about is growing. Are we changing this? You know, we're going to wrap this up because we're already an hour, but is that changing? Do you think that there's a movement away from this Napa style into expressing Rutherford, into expressing Mount Veeder, into expressing Oakville, into expressing, you know, Calistoga? Is that movement happening?

58:42 Hello. You have a writer here in Napa valley called Karin McNeil who made an article the other day saying that she tasted 18 wines from one of the top consultants in Napa Valley, and she couldn't make any difference of the 18 wines. Really? And I'm so glad she finally somebody said it, because me, I can study. Nobody give a shit. But so it's important that we have somebody official that says it. We need a lot of people to say the same thing. Because realistically, what is Napa Mali today? A lot of rich people who don't know anything about wine. They put $50 million in the ground, and they hire a top guy to say, give me a 98 so that I have the return of investment. So they make the wine to be a 98. Because most of the press doesn't know any way what they taste except something big. And they are not touch by layers. Right. Because they taste that in two seconds and then they move to something else. Yeah, they've got 100 wines in front of them. Absolutely. So we are not in the same business. Now, me, I sell to customers who love wine, who discover wine.

59:42 Some are young, some are older, but they have a passion. They have a passion for wine, and they have a passion for food, and they travel. Their mind is open, and they discover new things. You know, think I make a Syrah, fantastic Syrah. But then I have customer would travel and say, you know, Chanel, we went to Chateauneuve du Pape. The wines, the Syrah are different. Okay? So I make now a gsc, a Grenache Syrah, Cunoise, so the same GS. That's interesting. And because, first of all, I love to make one. And also because my customer, they make me grow, and I make them grow. Okay? And that's why I decided to sell only to private people, because I got every word of their text message. That's brilliant. And we grow together. I mean, in today's world, the fact that you avoid distributors and Youngs and Southern and RNDC and Wine Warehouse, all the rest of them, and the consolidation and the book, you'll be in a book that thick, unless you take the kid to Hawaii, you don't get any presents. I mean, you've done the right thing.

1:00:49 And it's really great and fascinating to hear the change from when we first met in 1998 and we did business together to today in your passion and your health, which is the most important. It's really great to be here. You know, I love my thing. We have a Fanta, I have A fantastic team. Matthew has been with me 23 years. Tony, 22, Eric that I hired as a winemaker to work with me and Kale. When I restarted the business, I needed younger people so that I can train because it takes a long time to train a winemaker. And we have fun. And we have fun because we make wine. Everybody here knows that they have to be perfection. But nobody takes pay is, you know, wave their nose up. Arrogance is not part of our team. You know, my father passed away two years ago and I didn't when I took over the company. He'll tell you I bought it for a dollar. And it's funny. I'll just tell you the quick story. We. When I started working with him, I worked with him all my life because I was the youngest, the youngest child.

1:01:58 And I was more like him. I was spirited, entrepreneurial. And so he took me to his meetings, et cetera. And one day, after I worked with him for about 90 days, I packed the wine, I did the credit card charges, I tasted with him. We went to a Bordeaux tasting in la and we got separated in different rooms and we tasted 25 Bordeaux. I don't, I don't remember the supplier. And when we got done, we had a three point scale. See, it was different than what, what we do today. Our three point scale was if we gave it a one, we couldn't use it because it was overpriced for what we've tasted. Two was good price, good wine at representation. And three was if the price was a little lower, you know, it would make more sense. And we were exactly the same on everything but two of them.

1:02:45 Because I think you're ready to, to do this. And for me, it was business, maybe the first 10 or 15 years. How much wine can I sell? Let's make sure, of course, good product wines like Chateau Potel, Zinfandel. But then all of a sudden, the passion and the fascination of what good glass of wine, an honest glass of wine means. And so that's what I've been chasing. And I thank him every day for pulling me into this industry, as difficult as it is. You said already we had fun. It's fun to produce like this and to make people feel good. You don't work, I don't work. It's hospitality. Yes, we do. And you know, you have fantastic people who love to learn, who love to appreciate, who want to have fun and discover. And wine is about that. There is nothing else. And everybody has his own path of understanding and growing with wine. And you need to respect that. You know, if there's nothing right and nothing wrong about wine. Everybody has their own path. And me, I try to accompany the path and. And to make them happy and make myself happy at the same time. Well, congratulations to this date 40 years later. It is so fun to be back and have a chat with you.

1:04:05 Yeah, fantastic. You need to come back more than 27 over here. Cheers.