Disrupting Wine: From Artificial Intelligence to Award-Winning Orange Wines in Armenia. Luiza Avetisyan

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I always say that Musa wines, like winemaking, is

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my way to stay connected with Earth.

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And I really mean it. With digital and tech

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and everything, you are producing value, but when it

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comes to winemaking, you're producing heritage. Sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul K. Hey, welcome to

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Wine Talks with Paul Kane. We are in studio today in beautiful Southern California,

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about to have a conversation with Luisa Avetisian way out in

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Yerevan. Listen, a new show just came out called

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Song of America. It's about immigration to America.

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Some crazy good stories about people that have come here, relatives,

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grandparents, and established themselves in America with

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various disciplines, social, political, financial success. It's really crazy good.

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But not while we're here. We're here to talk to Louisa. Welcome to the show.

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Hi, Paul. Hi. Thank you for having me. Now, Louisa is the host

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of Beyond Podcast, which is by demand back

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on the air, so you got to check that out. She's also the owner and

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founder of Musa Wines out in Armenia. So we've got a nice conversation about some

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of the other things that are going on in the world of wine as well

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as winery ownerships. But you're a PhD

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out of Yerevan, right? Yes. Engineering? Yes.

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Do you like to be called doctor when people talk to you? No, I usually

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I'm not called the doctor. No. But

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the search for academia. We're going to talk about this a little bit while we

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get along. But you know, certainly Armenia is a rather

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patriarchic society, as France and many other

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countries in that part of the world. How. How

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did that sit with a woman becoming a PhD and did. Was it a. Were

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there henwoods headwinds to that process?

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No, I'd say that it's not something that

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it's not a male dominant space. My

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mother holds a PhD in engineering and I started

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my career as a. As a software engineer because

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my bachelor's is also in math and in engineering.

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So getting a PhD. I actually did it

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a couple of years after I left my master's. I graduated from

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master's program and I was working for HSBC Bank.

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And my PhD thesis was

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around financial engineering. And I actually used real

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data to build the models. And I won't go

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much into, you know, the very details, but

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no, I wouldn't say that this is something that only men or

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mainly men do. You know, it's interesting you say that because

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before I got into the wine Trade, which was 1988, although I had worked

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at my dad's store for a long time, I owned a software company

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and I mean Obviously from the 80s, so much has

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changed, but it's radically different.

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Just in the last few years, have you

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delved into some of these changes, some of the AI work and how

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it affects the workflow and how it works, how coding works these days?

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Yes, yes, sure. So my company, the

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staff am, which is the premier career marketplace in

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Armenia, software engineering company. And then the

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second product is Hirebee, which is fully AI powered hiring and

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HRMS solution. So actually this,

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we witness it every day from building autonomous

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agents to actually going like using

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no code tools, et cetera. These are things

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that are happening now and affecting

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Armenian engineering workforce and software

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engineering workforce. And in general product, digital, digital product building

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process a lot. So this is something that I deal with

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every day within the scope of stuff Am

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I call it the best time to be in the industry.

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Actually that's interesting thought and

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I'm obviously fascinated by it. Having sold, having worked

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in the industry, it was database driven type product at the time,

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but it did actually have

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network capabilities. And this is 1988 where we would call across

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the country and download data from a remote data source.

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But you know, this is ridiculous. So yesterday I

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was working on a workflow because I do this by myself and we

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were going to talk about podcasting here in a second, but you know, I do

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everything. I had a staff here at one time when I sold wine. So I

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had a software engineer, I had a IT guy, I had a

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digital designer, I had all the people to support the podcast and I don't

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anymore. So anyway, long story short, I took an airtable product that

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I had laboriously put together with another

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staff member and I just put it in one of the code writers

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vibe, code writers. And it duplicated it in so much

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and it's so much better than what I had created. And it took, I don't

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know, maybe it took an hour total and I'm in the middle of testing it.

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It's just, it's phenomenal for

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this process and I think you're right. I think it's a really interesting time

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for the world to embrace it. Do you find people

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are not using it enough? I mean, other words, they're not looking at their own

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lifestyle and their own business and their own

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workflow and saying, you know, I should probably attach AI to this.

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Yes, I think many of them do. And when I'm asked what is

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going to happen to labor market in Armenia, in the

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world, et cetera, I said that AI is definitely going to create a

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lot more jobs than we have now. Of course we're going to lose some of

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them. That's obvious, that's already happening. But

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what I like to say is that we're going to start to speak to our

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fridge and for that we're going to need more

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engineers, more product people, more

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jobs to actually start to speak and

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to interact with many of the gadgets that

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surround us differently. And then, you know,

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I'm waiting for a

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robot to be ready to be used in my

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yard, so, you know, it can take care of everything.

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So these are really very exciting times. And you

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told about, you shared about Vibe coding when it was

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new. I also had some ideas which, you know, I was

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postponing all the time and I sat there and I created

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the stuff and I tested and you know, it was then ready to go and

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to be build with a normal life cycle. But for product people

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with product mindset, founders with product mindset, it's quite

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easy today to actually build something,

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validate it and then go to the market with

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more confidentiality

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and more product

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input, like user input. It's crazy that it's, I mean it

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literally changes every day. Even the product that we're sitting on now, Riverside

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fm, it seems like every day they have a new release, AI

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driven. You know, answer this question

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for me because the

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diasporan Armenians will tout the idea that there's this

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hotbed of intellectual tech in

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Armenia and I tend to agree with it. There's a lot of

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engineering that comes from it and part of the conversation is, well,

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that's where, when it was part of the ussr, that's where the

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USSR pointed to Armenia for their tech

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intelligence. Is it? So is Armenia a hotbed of

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Armenia of engineering, AI engineering and

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even, you know, military and or business

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engineering? Yes, quite. Yes, I

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would quite agree with you. And we saw a number

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of multinationals and also US based startups

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and scale ups open their offices in Armenia for the past 10,

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15, even 20 years. And now with all

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the developments that we are seeing here with

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Nvidia's investment and big projects and

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other things that

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are happening in Armenia, the entire

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region's attention and even Europe's attention. And why not?

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Also that world attention is on Armenia.

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This is gaining a real momentum and I'm sure that

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this is just the beginning. So this becomes a new era

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of development for Armenia. Armenia, this means a lot for our

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engineering talent. This means a lot for our

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mind as builders and

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creators. So this is very exciting,

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definitely for Armenia. I think you're right

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and I agree with you completely that much. To the

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naysayers of the industry and how a lot of

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politicians even will talk about how AI is going to take jobs. I don't agree

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with that at all. It's just like when computers hit, you know, when many

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microcomputers hit people's desks in the early 80s

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that they were going to take away jobs. And it just creates so much more

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information to have to process and to react to that. We're going to

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need the people to react to it because it doesn't do it all. It never

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will. As long as it progresses, it will create more information to

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process and to move along with. And I wish I had some of this data

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when I was selling stuff back in the days, but I guess it's always

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relative. So whatever, you know, grow up with. Let's, let's get. We got off

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subject a little bit because we're going to talk about wine here. You know,

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the, the Concour Mundial de Br was in town in

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Yavan and I had every intention of coming. We happened to be on

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a two week Ireland Scotland tour just days before and

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just wrapping up and my wife's like, I don't know if I can spend a

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week in Armenia. I was asked to judge and I

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wanted to come and, and shoot more episodes of the

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show called the Back Label that we did out there. But you were there

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and I want to get a feeling for the energy,

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the international exposure that this created for

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Yvonne and the Armenian wine trade. Was it exciting what was going

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on? It was very, very exciting, Paul. And we

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knew about CMB to take place in Armenia around

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18 months ago. So it was the beginning

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of 2015 when the

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C founders were in

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Armenia who were celebrating with the wine community and

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there they announced that the CMB

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2026 will be held in Armenia. And

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this is huge in the

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terms that almost 8,000

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bottles of wine were sent to Armenia

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and around 320 expert judges,

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sommelier buyers came from different

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parts of the world to Armenia. And of course

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majority of them, you know, didn't know about Armenia much

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or haven't heard that, you know, we had this

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heritage, you know, we are by fact the

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first country to produce wine. The are

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any one cave is an artifact of this

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and also the fact that so many

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international wine experts tried

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Armenian wine. They were hosted by different

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wineries in different regions. The Vayoc region,

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Aragatsotal region, Almavid et cetera. So

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this was, you know, very monumental for

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Armenia for sure. And I will just briefly

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introduce the scope. So what happens when

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big competition like CMB happens in Armenia.

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So there are four or five days of wine tasting which took

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place in Garen Demmerchand port complex. And

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it was, you know, equipped

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in a way to be branded, very nice

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interior. And judges were there like trying the wines

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and doing the blind wine tastings for hours. Then for

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the second half of the day they would go to different wineries

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and like Karas and Armenian wine and these big

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wineries, they hosted dinners there and

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it was really very beautiful. On

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20th of May, we had a big opening ceremony

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at Garni Temple and it was, I don't know if you have

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had a chance to see some pictures, some videos,

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but it was huge. And it was very, it made us

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really proud of our heritage. It was based

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on our history and the storyline was built around

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winemaking and us being a winemaking region. And

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at Garni, I could feel that, you know, all the

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people who came, who flew to Armenia from Asia, from

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Europe, from, from Americas, et cetera, this was

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huge for them as well. And this was unexpected.

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Something that, you know, they might not expect a small country

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to, to, you know, to produce something that beautiful. And

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when I spoke to Mr. Havel, he was like, I don't know what the next

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country is going to do to really keep up with this

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high benchmark that you guys created today.

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Wow. And we also, as a

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winery Musa one also got to meet with

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sommeliers and buyers who were interested with Armenian

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wine. And they were again, when they were tasting,

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not just as a blind tasters, but you know, approaching the

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producers, speaking with them, tasting the wine, they were really nicely

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surprised as well. So to sum up,

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CMB was something that

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Armenian winemaking industry really deserved. And

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this was the best arena where we could showcase

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what we have to offer to the world. And in terms of quality,

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we really have much to offer. The spectacle that

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I saw was amazing. I was jealous and

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FOMO because I actually had to cancel my

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reservation at the Alexander Hotel that I had already booked months

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ago, but it just wasn't in the cards. Well, this

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is an important thing. The idea that

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the CMB exists is an interesting

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point of discovery for the wine trade because

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up until, and they've been around for a long time, but really what led

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the wine charge for, for the public was scoring Robert Parker

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spectator enthusiast all those people and you know,

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00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:18,500
points, you know, you think about the point system, it really is like a 20

247
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point system. It's not a hundred, it's out of 100. But really you don't Talk

248
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about wines that are less than 80. And so really you only talk wines that

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have 80 points plus. And here the CMB has created

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00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:31,900
a methodology where it's gold medals, which is old school

251
00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:36,270
and it, it's a sticker you can put on a bottle so that you,

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00:15:36,270 --> 00:15:39,510
when you go to the marketplace, people can recognize the gold label.

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And to put it in perspective for the listeners,

254
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:47,350
in the early days of this business, the Wine of the Month Club, we do

255
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:51,270
lots and lots of wine fairs. And the largest fair in America at the

256
00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:54,990
time was the LA county wine judging during the LA County

257
00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:58,470
Fair. And that was up to 3,000 bottles.

258
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So when you think about that, organizing a group of tasters from all over

259
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,880
the world to taste up to 8,000 bottles of wine

260
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,400
in one place over the course of what, two or three days is

261
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,840
incredible. Four or five days, yeah. From 19 to 23rd.

262
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,080
And the logistics was all on the Armenian trade to do this.

263
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,920
Mostly, yes. Vine and Wine foundation of army is part of

264
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,680
the Ministry of Economy where the key

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00:16:26,250 --> 00:16:29,690
organizers of the entire cmb,

266
00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:32,410
of course they had the company

267
00:16:33,770 --> 00:16:37,450
who was supporting them. But the main hosts,

268
00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:41,290
if I can say so, of the CMB were the vine

269
00:16:41,290 --> 00:16:44,170
and Wine foundation of Armenia, which is Zahra.

270
00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:48,490
Yes, Zahra Muradian. And the work done was really

271
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sub. It's really quite fascinating.

272
00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:57,140
And in my personal opinion, I think

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that the pace of the, you know, post

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freedom for Armenian wine is incredible. This, and I can

275
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:08,219
vouch for this in 2006 or so. And I've brought this up

276
00:17:08,219 --> 00:17:12,020
before on the show, you know, we were there and we were stopping

277
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:15,700
at wineries and they really were unpalatable wines. I mean, you really couldn't drink them.

278
00:17:15,940 --> 00:17:19,340
And of course in the Armenian pride scenario, I had to tell them how good

279
00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:22,100
they were because I was the American wine guy and

280
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:27,030
just really for the wine industry, in a short amount of time

281
00:17:27,910 --> 00:17:31,550
they've become world class in many of them and their quality

282
00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:35,230
and their production value. They're still learning about the

283
00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:38,990
soil, about the weather, about what's going to happen with the grapes, what CNN

284
00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:42,710
can do without any can do, et cetera. But the acceleration is pretty

285
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:46,310
amazing. It's quite impressive. But let me, let's go

286
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:49,920
backwards a little bit. You own Musa Musa wines?

287
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,680
Yes. And how long has that been? Four years already. Four

288
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,440
years. Wow. Four years. Yes. Our first. That's

289
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,760
a baby. Yes. Yes. We are, we are a small

290
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,240
family owned boutique winery and we really

291
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,400
started the winery because

292
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,880
of mainly the love towards Armenian

293
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,440
winemaking and Armenian wine. My husband is A

294
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,340
winemaker by first academic profession.

295
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,100
Profession in general. And I am, as I said at the

296
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:29,700
beginning, from tech. And I'm a

297
00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:33,260
huge wine. Armenian wine enthusiast. So four years

298
00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:35,380
ago, we had our first

299
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:40,460
industrial level, like the first vintage. Then we

300
00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:44,140
bottled our wines in 2023. So

301
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:47,870
just three years ago. So the first Musa wine was

302
00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:51,630
bottled three years ago. And then last year, we won

303
00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:55,390
the IWSC International Wine and Spirit Competition.

304
00:18:55,790 --> 00:18:59,390
Best amber wine, best orange wine. It's called orange wine

305
00:19:00,670 --> 00:19:04,350
in the world. So we first. Yes,

306
00:19:04,670 --> 00:19:07,550
we first won the gold

307
00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:11,550
and we sent our red and

308
00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:15,470
amber wine. And I just want to show quickly, so the viewers

309
00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:19,530
what how amber wine looks like. So this is filtered. Do

310
00:19:19,530 --> 00:19:23,330
you filter yours? It's filtered, but it's not like

311
00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:27,290
it's mildly filtered. Yes. Okay, so it has some

312
00:19:27,290 --> 00:19:30,530
residual bit of sediment, which is normal. Yes. You know,

313
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:34,690
I think orange wine is an interesting process. What.

314
00:19:35,650 --> 00:19:39,410
What confused me when they started coming to America from Georgia

315
00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:43,050
and then they were making them here was certainly it makes

316
00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:46,650
sense to manufacture white wine using the red wine process. Why not? They

317
00:19:46,650 --> 00:19:50,330
make red wine, you know, they make white wine out of red grapes. But

318
00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:54,010
it was an excuse in some cases for the wine to be

319
00:19:54,330 --> 00:19:58,090
rustic, hard to drink, acidic, tannic.

320
00:19:58,330 --> 00:20:01,610
And it doesn't need to be that way, right? No, I mean, no.

321
00:20:02,650 --> 00:20:06,250
In fact, there's less tannin in a white skin, you know, white grape skin,

322
00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:09,740
white skin grape than there is in the red one. So. And I. It just

323
00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:13,140
took a long time for the industry to come around to the fact that, you

324
00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:16,100
know, you can make really nice orange amber wines

325
00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:20,580
if you produce it. Right. I mean, manufacturing. In other words, it's not an excuse

326
00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:24,300
for a wine to taste like kombucha just because you think it's organic or that

327
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:28,140
it's, you know, orange. Yes, but this is a tough industry. I mean, why would

328
00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:31,540
you do this? Were you trying to express Armenia?

329
00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:35,580
You're wine enthusiasts. If you listen to my show with

330
00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:39,230
Mariam Sagatalian, you know, she'll say in that video

331
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:42,990
that there's more wine than consumers. Why would you

332
00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:45,590
do this? Was this an expression of culture?

333
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:50,190
Yes, it was an expression of culture. Also. It was

334
00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:53,590
the deep belief in Armenian winemaking in general.

335
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:57,430
So I always say that we are just getting started.

336
00:20:57,910 --> 00:21:01,470
The winemaking industry in Armenia, we're really just getting

337
00:21:01,470 --> 00:21:05,250
started and being a team at

338
00:21:05,250 --> 00:21:06,570
the beginning of something.

339
00:21:09,690 --> 00:21:13,290
This is really fascinating. And I always

340
00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:16,570
say that the current winemakers

341
00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:22,330
who really aim for high quality, they are going

342
00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:25,610
to be remembered. But it's not about

343
00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:32,170
the Vanity or things like that. I truly believe

344
00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:35,710
that we need to show how

345
00:21:35,710 --> 00:21:39,470
beautiful Armenian wine and how beautiful Armenian terroir is to

346
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:42,230
the world. Because like you told about

347
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:46,710
orange wine being, you know, a bit different from white, et cetera,

348
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:50,230
but our ancestors made the white wine like we do,

349
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,590
like we make the orange wine today. So

350
00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:57,790
long story short, right from day one, when

351
00:21:57,790 --> 00:22:01,590
we created Moussa wines, we knew that it was going to be

352
00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:05,230
an award winning wine, it was going to be on

353
00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:08,890
international arena. Now we sell in the us, we sell

354
00:22:08,890 --> 00:22:12,610
in Europe, and we have many

355
00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:16,210
tourists in Armenia who when they visit Armenia, they order

356
00:22:16,290 --> 00:22:20,130
Musa wines. So we never compete with

357
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:23,730
local producers, with other producers. And I fully agree with Mariam,

358
00:22:23,810 --> 00:22:27,410
because Armenians don't drink that much

359
00:22:27,410 --> 00:22:30,930
wine, as all winemakers would wish.

360
00:22:31,330 --> 00:22:35,090
We still drink vodka, we still drink beer, et cetera. But this is,

361
00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:38,910
you know, this is a culture shift that needs to happen and

362
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:42,670
people need to invest money, resources, energy

363
00:22:43,790 --> 00:22:47,550
to make this happen. Well, that is kind of the irony of the industry,

364
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:51,310
right? I mean, it's people like you that have passion for

365
00:22:51,310 --> 00:22:55,110
it. That and I always, I usually start my little lectures when I do these

366
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:58,270
things around town. I'm going to start with the idea that if you tried to

367
00:22:58,270 --> 00:23:01,950
pick the top five expressions of a culture, you know,

368
00:23:01,950 --> 00:23:04,630
you have to say a language. If there's a separate language, you'd have to say

369
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:08,300
the, the land, if there's a separate country, the food, the music

370
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:12,140
and wine, those are going to be expressive of it. And wine,

371
00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,660
even more important. And I got this quote from Juliana

372
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,540
at Katas years ago, two things that came out of my

373
00:23:19,540 --> 00:23:23,020
podcast. One of them was, what other product can you take

374
00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:25,900
halfway around the world, put on the desk and say, this is who we were

375
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:29,500
and when we were because of vintage. And the other thing,

376
00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:33,090
this is a question for you, since you've only been doing this for four years.

377
00:23:33,970 --> 00:23:37,410
Michel Roland, who just passed away, the fandinologist who was working with

378
00:23:37,410 --> 00:23:41,130
Katas in the beginning, told Juliana, you can

379
00:23:41,130 --> 00:23:44,930
grow grapes here in the Arad Valley. Valley. But we're going to need

380
00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:48,770
a hundred years to figure it out. And you know, he's right, because

381
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:52,490
how many, with all the variables that go into what's in that

382
00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:56,250
bottle of wine, you know, it could take that long. And

383
00:23:56,250 --> 00:24:00,040
so is this a legacy for you? Are you going to leave this for

384
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,480
the kids, et cetera, et cetera? Yes, yes, exactly. So

385
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,280
I always say that Musa wines, like winemaking,

386
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,400
is my way to stay connected

387
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,400
with Earth. And I really mean it with digital

388
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,600
and tech. And everything, you are

389
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,360
producing value, but when it comes to winemaking, you're

390
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,920
producing heritage. So with Musa wines, yes, this is something

391
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,580
that myself and my husband and would really love to see our

392
00:24:30,580 --> 00:24:34,100
kids, our grandkids, to, you know, continue the work.

393
00:24:34,340 --> 00:24:38,020
And when creating the brand, the name, the story,

394
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,580
the narrative, et cetera, we had this

395
00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:45,059
vision of seeing Musa alive and thriving

396
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,140
100 years from 2022 when we were doing

397
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:52,860
all this. You know, I wanted to back up just a second to lead

398
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:56,670
to another point, but one of the great photographs that I got got sent to

399
00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:00,190
me and probably an expression of what wine is about in the first place,

400
00:25:00,430 --> 00:25:04,110
but I had a wonderful African Bordeaux importer on the show

401
00:25:04,110 --> 00:25:07,790
years ago. Not even, not even a year ago, actually, a few months ago. Wonderful

402
00:25:07,790 --> 00:25:11,550
lady. And she. Her specialty is Bordeaux in, I think, Ethiopia

403
00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:15,310
or that part of the world. And they. They texted me a picture

404
00:25:15,310 --> 00:25:18,750
of her and Mariam sitting on the bus going to one of the events.

405
00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:22,230
And I go, what other industry in the world would. Would that. Could that even

406
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:26,010
happen? You know, an African woman who imports

407
00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:29,810
Bordeaux sitting on a bus with this pioneering, you

408
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:33,330
know, wine bar woman, you know, in Yerevan, I mean, it just seemed. It just

409
00:25:33,330 --> 00:25:36,930
seems so poignant. Yeah. And wine connects, Paul.

410
00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:40,490
Wine really, for me, it connects people.

411
00:25:40,890 --> 00:25:44,610
Doesn't matter what nationality you are from. It really. It

412
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:48,330
really connects. It's a celebration. Wine is a celebration

413
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,530
for sure. Tell me then, what

414
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:55,890
surprised you? When you. You're coming from tech, you're coming from

415
00:25:56,450 --> 00:25:59,970
an organized industry, a very practical industry,

416
00:26:00,530 --> 00:26:04,010
you know, A equals B type industry, and that's not the way the wine

417
00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:07,530
works. What has surprised you and what has

418
00:26:07,530 --> 00:26:11,370
intrigued you since you started doing this project? That was

419
00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:14,850
the first aha moment for me when we were,

420
00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:18,750
you know, we were starting, we went to see some of the

421
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:22,510
big and medium wine producers, and when they

422
00:26:23,150 --> 00:26:26,910
were asking, what would your capacity be?

423
00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:31,710
I was always saying, well, 2 million tones,

424
00:26:31,790 --> 00:26:35,430
3 million tons instead of 2 tones and 3

425
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:39,150
tones. So in tech, you used

426
00:26:39,150 --> 00:26:42,830
to this millions. And this was. And they were looking at me like,

427
00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:46,510
sorry, sorry. No, it's just three tones, five tones. So we're producing rounds.

428
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:53,490
And they were like, who is this lady coming just from out of

429
00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:57,290
nowhere with this? And the second thing

430
00:26:57,290 --> 00:27:01,090
was that in tech, when you need something to

431
00:27:01,090 --> 00:27:04,650
be released earlier, you add resources, you add

432
00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:07,770
engineers, you add product managers

433
00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:12,010
or ui, ux, et cetera. So you can make

434
00:27:12,170 --> 00:27:15,570
the release faster by adding resources. In

435
00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:19,130
winemaking, the wine doesn't care if you have

436
00:27:19,290 --> 00:27:22,750
5 winemakers or 50 winemakers or

437
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:26,390
500 winemakers staying there next to that wine.

438
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:30,110
It needs time. And the same applies to the grape and

439
00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:33,830
it has its own rules. And also people

440
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:37,510
in the wine industry, they're not as stressed out

441
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:41,350
and binded with all these deadlines and

442
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:44,830
everything. And it was so hard for me to set up the

443
00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:47,830
initial process with my husband when we would speak with

444
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:51,030
cork importers, with

445
00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:55,170
printing houses, with the company that we bought

446
00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:58,850
the bottles and had them shipped to Armenia, et cetera.

447
00:27:58,850 --> 00:28:02,610
So they had their own pace, which was much

448
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:06,730
slower than mining tech. And they would get

449
00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:10,570
sometimes, you know, hard time working with me. And when we were done

450
00:28:10,570 --> 00:28:14,290
and the bottles were, we had bottled the wine and went to

451
00:28:14,290 --> 00:28:17,810
see Mariam at Invino and she was like, oh,

452
00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:21,770
I'm sure you had a hard time with the printing, with et cetera, et cetera.

453
00:28:21,770 --> 00:28:25,350
And I said, no, madam. I think they, because I was

454
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:28,750
projecting the pace that we have in tech

455
00:28:28,910 --> 00:28:32,630
on winemaking. And it was the

456
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:35,230
first lessons learned. But now I think

457
00:28:36,190 --> 00:28:38,590
I have more patience and

458
00:28:39,950 --> 00:28:43,670
I learned to actually wait and to obey. And

459
00:28:43,670 --> 00:28:47,470
I think I'm more humble now. Well, that's the

460
00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:50,510
right word, the

461
00:28:51,150 --> 00:28:54,930
humility of it all. Because despite the supply

462
00:28:54,930 --> 00:28:58,770
chain of corks, bottles, labels, glue, everything that goes into a

463
00:28:58,770 --> 00:29:02,450
bottle of wine, not let alone the actual, you know, putting it on the line

464
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:06,170
and bottling it is the fact that you're

465
00:29:06,170 --> 00:29:09,410
beholden to what the earth gives you. And

466
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:13,970
your job, you know, as I've determined all this after all these years, is,

467
00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:18,050
is to do the, is to create something that best

468
00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:21,890
expresses that moment. If you do that right,

469
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:26,210
there's no such thing as a bad vintage because

470
00:29:26,290 --> 00:29:30,050
you've expressed that time and place. Exactly. We can screw it

471
00:29:30,050 --> 00:29:33,170
up, you know, we can screw it up easily. Right?

472
00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:36,410
We'd be given something and then it doesn't come out the way it's supposed to.

473
00:29:36,410 --> 00:29:39,970
But it's a very humble, it's a very

474
00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:43,570
humble, humiliating humility producing

475
00:29:44,130 --> 00:29:47,870
industry. But it's a very, you know, this is the part that

476
00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:51,870
I'm not sure if you're aware of the French group called Adeni Global. It's,

477
00:29:51,870 --> 00:29:55,430
it's, it's out of Shataneuf D Pap. It's some very high level

478
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:59,150
women that created this group and they chose Adani, the name

479
00:29:59,230 --> 00:30:02,510
because of the origins of, of Adani One Cave.

480
00:30:02,830 --> 00:30:06,350
But their, their job and,

481
00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:09,910
and you should look them up is, is to help

482
00:30:09,910 --> 00:30:13,580
wineries understand the business side of this. Because

483
00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:18,140
ultimately, and it's kind of the irony in my opinion of

484
00:30:18,140 --> 00:30:21,420
wine is you Got to sell some, right? You got to figure out how to

485
00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:24,940
sell. You can't continue to lose money and just pour money into winemaking because

486
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:28,300
unless you have a lot of money to start with, which is an old axiom

487
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:31,980
of the wine trade, but you know, you want to sell

488
00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:35,500
some and all of a sudden the realities of business come into play.

489
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:39,420
Margins. And the margins aren't good in wine and you've got to get

490
00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:42,620
distribution and you got to go see Mariam and put it on a shelf

491
00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:46,640
and then you got to do event. And so was that a

492
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,200
surprise to you? Was that part of it

493
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,760
or did you know? I think that

494
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,400
part. I was more comfortable with that part because

495
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,280
I have been in the business for eight years

496
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,280
before actually producing Musa wines. And I'm

497
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,920
glad that the decisions that we made along the way

498
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,200
in terms of the production period and

499
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,320
production approach, it helped us to

500
00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:21,150
to invest the capital wisely and

501
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:24,790
it allowed us to actually leave some money for

502
00:31:24,790 --> 00:31:28,310
marketing as well. And when it comes

503
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:31,990
to business side, it's very important to know

504
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:36,470
if a winery is working with mass

505
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:38,710
market, then this is another approach.

506
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:43,660
Whereas if this is something like we want

507
00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:46,900
to see our wines like boutique style, award winning,

508
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,980
only in specialized stores, in good restaurants, et cetera,

509
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:55,060
and we're okay to wait for

510
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:58,820
years to make it happen, then this is another approach.

511
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:02,860
So we have chosen the second approach at this

512
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:06,580
moment, for the coming two, three years, we don't

513
00:32:06,740 --> 00:32:10,220
plan on expanding the production drastically.

514
00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:14,620
So we also love

515
00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:17,740
to participate at different festivals in Armenia

516
00:32:18,380 --> 00:32:21,900
and it helped us a lot. You mentioned events, so

517
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:25,340
Yerevan Wine Days is one of the best

518
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,140
places to be for a winery in Armenia. It's happening this

519
00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:32,860
weekend and from 5th to

520
00:32:32,860 --> 00:32:36,500
7th of June. And these are spaces

521
00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:40,300
created for wineries to interact with their

522
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:43,300
consumer. When we produce wine,

523
00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:47,860
we ship it to specialized store, to supermarket. We never

524
00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:51,500
see the person drinking the wine, how they react

525
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,060
to it. With tech products, you can test and you can

526
00:32:55,060 --> 00:32:58,660
track and you can analyze basically everything, where they

527
00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:02,340
click, where they stayed longer, which UX worked better,

528
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:06,080
et cetera, et cetera. With wine you don't have this luxury. So you

529
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,640
do when you go to festivals, you stand there for two

530
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,320
days or three days, you give the wine to the

531
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,920
person and they start to share their

532
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,720
emotions. So this helped us a lot, Paul. And we understood

533
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,720
who our consumer was. So we understood it very

534
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,440
quickly. We knew that for orange wine, this is

535
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,240
someone who is quite versatile, someone who likes

536
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,000
to experiment, someone who is okay to give

537
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,810
up the general white wine

538
00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:45,010
vibe. They really want to go for something new for

539
00:33:45,010 --> 00:33:48,450
our red. There is another segment. So it's very

540
00:33:48,770 --> 00:33:52,530
much like doing any business. You really need to understand who your

541
00:33:52,530 --> 00:33:56,250
consumer is, who your user is, who your customer is, and

542
00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:59,810
then be where they are. Yeah, so that was our

543
00:33:59,810 --> 00:34:03,490
approach. Margins are quite low if compared to tech.

544
00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:06,610
I think this is something that is obvious,

545
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,440
not even cool. Even when I was selling, you know, 40 or

546
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,000
50,000 bottles a month, the margins were still low. So it doesn't really

547
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,680
change. But that's an interesting point. How old

548
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,480
is the Adeni Festival? Has it been around long time? 10 years. This year

549
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,280
they celebrate their 10th anniversary. So they are doing this. This is not.

550
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,360
This is Yerevan Wine Days. I'm not sure how old

551
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,070
are any wine festivals are, but the

552
00:34:34,150 --> 00:34:37,990
company organizing both. So this is the same company,

553
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:41,790
Eventura. So it's an interesting thought. Let me see if I can

554
00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:45,390
articulate it efficiently. And that is different

555
00:34:45,390 --> 00:34:48,710
parts of the world, including Armenia at this point go through

556
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:52,790
their life cycle of the wine industry and they get to the saturated part like

557
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:56,470
America has been for many years. And I don't think obviously Armenia is

558
00:34:56,470 --> 00:35:00,320
there yet, but the Japanese, for instance, are well

559
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,920
ahead of the Chinese in their understanding of wine and what, you know, the value

560
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,400
of a good glass wine. And the Chinese are learning it. So everybody, every country's

561
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,320
got a sort of different, you know, meter and.

562
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,480
But I think all in all that the

563
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,720
industry is going back to experiential

564
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,080
parts of the wine trade. And if you look at this picture here, that's

565
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,770
my dad, that's me in 1975 and

566
00:35:26,770 --> 00:35:29,810
we're standing in front of what was the original Wine of the Month club display

567
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:32,970
in my father's wine shop in the 70s. And

568
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:36,730
the reason I brought that up is because back then you did that, you had

569
00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:40,530
dinners, people got dressed up, they had speakers and they did all the things

570
00:35:40,530 --> 00:35:43,850
you did to create the experience around wine. It's not

571
00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:47,250
unlike. Well, let's take Armenia for a second. If I come to

572
00:35:47,250 --> 00:35:50,490
Yerevan and I sit in a cafe and I have a glass of Moussa

573
00:35:51,050 --> 00:35:54,840
and I'm having a conversation with, with Louisa, I'm going to remember that

574
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,520
every time I opened the bottle of, of wine and, and

575
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,040
my club was, was based on that because we started

576
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
the relationship with a handshake at a festival.

577
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,200
That was the primary method of, of growing the company

578
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,480
from 1984 to

579
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,920
2007. And in fact, in 2007 I did

580
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,690
over a hundred festivals in one year. Year. Wow. So that's two a

581
00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:24,330
weekend. I had a sales staff, etc. All that to

582
00:36:24,330 --> 00:36:27,850
say those people were my lowest, most loyal

583
00:36:27,850 --> 00:36:31,410
customers, because I shook their hand and we talked about

584
00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:35,249
wine, and every time they got the shipment from me, they were thinking,

585
00:36:35,249 --> 00:36:38,410
oh, I remember Paul, I remember Larry. Whoever was selling the wine at that time.

586
00:36:38,970 --> 00:36:42,330
And I really think wine needs that today. Because the Internet is,

587
00:36:42,970 --> 00:36:46,490
you know, Internet and metric marketing has completely

588
00:36:46,490 --> 00:36:50,290
destroyed that experience is. And people are just shopping for price

589
00:36:50,290 --> 00:36:54,090
and they're not necessarily looking for Musa. You know, here's a

590
00:36:54,090 --> 00:36:57,730
classic example. When I was on Amazon, I

591
00:36:57,730 --> 00:37:01,570
had. I took all this energy to put all of my wines, all

592
00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:05,730
two, 300 skews, into the Amazon platform.

593
00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:09,890
And the only thing that ever sold was Stella Rosa.

594
00:37:10,370 --> 00:37:13,940
Wow. Which is that sweet Moscato from the north of Spain, the

595
00:37:14,020 --> 00:37:17,660
north of Italy, which is brought in here by San Antonio Winery. But the

596
00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:21,180
point is, people on the Internet are not shopping for different

597
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:24,940
experiences. They're just shopping for what they know. And particularly on

598
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:28,660
Amazon. And here you are out there at the booth, shaking

599
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:32,380
hands, pouring your wines, having the conversation. And I think

600
00:37:32,380 --> 00:37:36,060
that's absolutely critical. Stories. Yeah, telling the stories.

601
00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:39,740
Because during the wine festivals, so

602
00:37:39,740 --> 00:37:43,410
people. People come. Not all of them, but majority of

603
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:47,090
them come after stories. They want to know why you started

604
00:37:47,090 --> 00:37:50,330
the winery in the first place. Especially when the wine

605
00:37:50,330 --> 00:37:54,130
producer, the owner, the founder, himself or

606
00:37:54,130 --> 00:37:57,650
herself are there and they speak and they

607
00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:01,370
interact with the visitors. We have so many

608
00:38:01,610 --> 00:38:05,290
stories that people who tried our wine

609
00:38:05,610 --> 00:38:08,650
during Dilijan Wine Fest during Yerevan wine days,

610
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:13,020
they became our loyal customers. I mean, we have some customers

611
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:16,540
who order 20 bottles, 30 bottles per month.

612
00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:19,820
That's even more than a specialized store does.

613
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:24,060
And we have people who travel to Armenia during

614
00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:27,659
Yerevan wine days, tried Nusa and then they kept

615
00:38:27,659 --> 00:38:31,420
ordering it. And we shipped it to different countries

616
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:35,660
on the post via postal service. We don't even sell it in that country,

617
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:39,500
but we send them two, three, four bottles. And when they

618
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:43,310
arrive and they come to Armenia again, they come to see us

619
00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:46,830
and they buy wine. So you build a relationship and

620
00:38:48,110 --> 00:38:51,950
it takes time to build these relationships. Because unlike

621
00:38:52,990 --> 00:38:56,590
your case, we don't have 100 festivals and we have

622
00:38:56,590 --> 00:39:00,190
really a couple of them. And we make sure to be at

623
00:39:00,190 --> 00:39:02,830
every single possible festival in Armenia

624
00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:07,310
so the consumers get to know us and get to Armenia.

625
00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:11,470
Maybe I can give you a little inside information here, because

626
00:39:11,790 --> 00:39:15,590
when I did those hundred festivals, maybe not

627
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:19,270
even half of them were food or wine related. But we did the.

628
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:22,910
We did the boat show, we did the gun shows, we did the

629
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:26,510
home improvement shows. And so People be walking down, looking at

630
00:39:26,590 --> 00:39:30,110
windows at a home improvement show. And then there's a wine

631
00:39:30,110 --> 00:39:33,830
booth. That was kind of fun, right? I mean,

632
00:39:33,830 --> 00:39:37,460
it's like, wow, what are you doing here? So those were very

633
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:41,260
successful for us. You know, we won't get into metric, the

634
00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:44,980
metrics of it all, but they were very, very lucrative for at

635
00:39:44,980 --> 00:39:48,100
least a few years. You know, in the middle of the 80s,

636
00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:54,380
the, you know, the wine trade here. It's

637
00:39:54,380 --> 00:39:56,740
funny, when I, when I started this podcast five years ago,

638
00:39:58,660 --> 00:40:01,060
there was a, there was a serious

639
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,160
inequity in, in gender when it came to

640
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,960
wine making and executive wines. But at some

641
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,360
point, almost all of my guests here were

642
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,280
female. And my intern here, a young

643
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,000
Lisa, was thinking about getting in the wine

644
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,640
trade and now she's graduating from Cornell's wine

645
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,120
school this year and she's. We. She had an

646
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,960
internship in, in Bordeaux, France is Chateau B.

647
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,400
And is there an inequity in, in the

648
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,720
wine? I mean, the. Most of the people I know in Armenia are females.

649
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,160
Maram being the, you know, leading the wave and Zara and the only, the

650
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,840
only male Armenians I've had on the show that deal with the Armenian trade is

651
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,800
Zara's husband. So,

652
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,680
so is that, is that a, is, is that an issue?

653
00:40:54,570 --> 00:40:57,490
And if it is, are you, are we addressing it or is it just the

654
00:40:57,490 --> 00:41:01,130
natural, you know, evolution of the trade? You mean

655
00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:04,570
issue that there are two too many women in, in wine industry?

656
00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:10,330
No, I would never say that. That would be, that'd be a death

657
00:41:10,330 --> 00:41:14,090
nail of the show. No, I mean is there a concerted effort to

658
00:41:14,570 --> 00:41:18,250
get women involved with the trade? No, I think it comes

659
00:41:18,490 --> 00:41:22,100
naturally. I mean, no one, I mean there are so

660
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,660
many challenges and problems in wine industry that

661
00:41:25,820 --> 00:41:29,620
why we don't have to like many women here is the last

662
00:41:29,620 --> 00:41:33,020
on the list. So in that perspective, I think

663
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:37,180
women in general in every single industry in Armenia

664
00:41:38,060 --> 00:41:41,580
are getting more, are starting

665
00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:44,700
being more active, getting more share

666
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:49,700
in if we can say so. And that

667
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:53,500
comes naturally. And that applies naturally to wine industry as well.

668
00:41:53,740 --> 00:41:57,260
And I think that we had some trailblazer women

669
00:41:57,660 --> 00:42:01,300
who really showcase that it doesn't really

670
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:04,460
matter if you are a man or woman, you can

671
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:08,220
succeed in wine industry. So still majority

672
00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:11,900
of chief winemakers are men. I won't say

673
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:15,340
everyone, but the majority of winemakers are men.

674
00:42:15,660 --> 00:42:19,240
But then commercial heads or

675
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,760
business development or overall CEOs, we see

676
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,200
more women there. So I would say that

677
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,480
only on technology side we still

678
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,640
have a male dominant industry,

679
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,960
but that's not because it's hard for women to get

680
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,320
there. I mean, whoever decides to, you know,

681
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,160
be aspire this. This

682
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,520
path, then they should definitely

683
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,240
succeed. That's interesting thought. I like

684
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:55,920
the way you articulated that because, you know, one of the other issues here

685
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,520
in America, of course, is, is diversity in the wine trade and

686
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,440
in the African American community. It's just becoming a popular

687
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,520
and important part of the industry. I can say that the association

688
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,280
of African American Vintners has grown from 5 to 250

689
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,850
in a matter of a few years. But I don't believe that there was any

690
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,400
exclusionary, you know, that it was excluded, but it was

691
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,080
just not part of the path. And so now it has become

692
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,200
part of the path. And there's some. I tasted 75

693
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,280
African American wines not too long ago, Napa, and they're all great.

694
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,880
You know, they were all really good. So do you think then that path

695
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,280
in Armenia, for a woman in the trade and I've

696
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,130
had the trade here obviously is much more complicated and

697
00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:46,970
much more sophisticated in the layers of bureaucracy and, you know, working

698
00:43:46,970 --> 00:43:50,650
for a big distributor and how much time and energy it takes to do

699
00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:54,130
that. But is there a grassroots

700
00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:57,970
method to become a winemaker in Armenia? Like, I don't know if there's an

701
00:43:57,970 --> 00:44:01,690
Armenian word for cellar rat or not, but somebody that hangs around the winery, who

702
00:44:01,690 --> 00:44:05,530
cleans the tanks in the beginning, who sweeps the floors, who make sure everything's

703
00:44:05,530 --> 00:44:09,360
clean and they grow in the ranks of the winery without going to sleep.

704
00:44:10,070 --> 00:44:13,790
Winemaking school or is there a preponderance of going to

705
00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:16,470
winemaking school in order to get into the trade?

706
00:44:19,590 --> 00:44:22,310
I think both apply, but

707
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:27,350
because we have EVN academy, that's easier

708
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:31,230
for someone who is not like who hasn't done

709
00:44:31,230 --> 00:44:34,750
a bachelor's degree in winemaking or food

710
00:44:34,750 --> 00:44:38,510
industry in general to go and get this training. But of

711
00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:42,270
course, I'm sure that, that there are cases where

712
00:44:42,430 --> 00:44:45,950
someone grew from being just a help

713
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:48,830
around and manual worker to becoming

714
00:44:49,230 --> 00:44:52,990
actual professional in wine. But

715
00:44:53,150 --> 00:44:56,910
if I look into the current community, I think

716
00:44:56,990 --> 00:45:00,670
majority of them are winemakers by

717
00:45:00,670 --> 00:45:04,510
their academic practice.

718
00:45:04,750 --> 00:45:08,100
So they add, yes, it's.

719
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:12,260
It always interests me when I talk to French winemakers, Italian,

720
00:45:13,380 --> 00:45:16,260
many of them, you know, started in the cellar and that's just the way they

721
00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:19,900
learned and it's that kind of industry and other ones you went to

722
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,700
academic school. But I think, you know, when it comes down to it, it's being

723
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:25,900
in the cellar, picking the grapes, knowing when to pick the grapes, all the things

724
00:45:25,900 --> 00:45:28,980
that go into a proper bottle of wine that,

725
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:32,260
that prevails yes, but I love to.

726
00:45:34,070 --> 00:45:37,190
We will see it, actually. It's just. We're just getting started.

727
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:40,710
Well, we're almost out of time here, but I do want to touch on this

728
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:44,310
because of the current political situation all over the world, really. But

729
00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:48,389
I think it was just announced here. We just read recently that Russia is putting

730
00:45:48,389 --> 00:45:52,230
the screws to Armenia about certain things. And I think. Didn't it restrict

731
00:45:53,350 --> 00:45:56,470
wine trade as one of their embargoes?

732
00:45:57,830 --> 00:46:01,280
I think it had something to do with the eu. Has that

733
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,240
happened? And if it does, Russia is

734
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:08,720
a huge marketplace for. I mean, why? What's going to happen? Yeah,

735
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,160
I don't have much information there, so I'm not an expert

736
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,480
on the end. And we don't export to Russia, so our

737
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,920
markets are the US and the Europe. But yes,

738
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,480
there is a big market for certain Armenian wines in

739
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,270
Russia. And of course, if that happens, this is going

740
00:46:28,270 --> 00:46:31,950
to affect them and that affects not only

741
00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:35,470
winemaking, but other producers as well. That can be

742
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:39,390
fruit and flowers, et cetera. But then

743
00:46:40,590 --> 00:46:44,310
we might be able to use this to find

744
00:46:44,310 --> 00:46:47,710
new markets. It's going to be difficult, for sure.

745
00:46:48,030 --> 00:46:51,790
And many winemakers and wineries have

746
00:46:51,790 --> 00:46:55,310
been exporting to Russia for more than a decade.

747
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,600
And Russians really enjoy Armenian wine and they are used

748
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,240
to it. So that's not actually my area of

749
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:04,680
expertise. But

750
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:11,080
that's not going to make sense for neither of the sites,

751
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,000
neither for the Russian consumers nor for Armenian

752
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,200
producers. I mean, the Russians have been huge consumers

753
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,050
of all things alcohol. I mean, the primary marketplace

754
00:47:23,050 --> 00:47:26,730
for brandy. Brandy as well. Armenian Ararat brandy as

755
00:47:26,730 --> 00:47:30,530
well. Another market for. For that. Do

756
00:47:30,530 --> 00:47:33,490
you have aspirations to come to America with. With your wines?

757
00:47:34,850 --> 00:47:38,210
We actually. Our orange wine can be

758
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:41,890
delivered throughout all. Like, all throughout all the 50 states.

759
00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:45,090
And it can be bought online on wines of Armenia

760
00:47:46,050 --> 00:47:49,690
and with other wines. Yes,

761
00:47:49,690 --> 00:47:53,430
we are, you know, we're open our red

762
00:47:53,430 --> 00:47:56,590
and our barrel select aged wine

763
00:47:57,150 --> 00:48:00,950
sold in the US as well. It's quite a good market for Armenian wines,

764
00:48:00,950 --> 00:48:04,590
and it's an untapped market. I would

765
00:48:04,590 --> 00:48:08,430
say we need to do more work as a wine community

766
00:48:08,990 --> 00:48:11,790
and also work closer and

767
00:48:12,510 --> 00:48:16,310
somehow have some different approach when it comes

768
00:48:16,310 --> 00:48:19,620
to the trade in the us this is a huge

769
00:48:20,420 --> 00:48:24,180
market and a good market. I've had that conversation with Zara

770
00:48:24,180 --> 00:48:27,700
and many Armenian producers and bureaucrats.

771
00:48:27,780 --> 00:48:30,980
The extent that, yes, you know, as a

772
00:48:30,980 --> 00:48:34,740
tradesman and doing this for so long, I can't tell you how many tastings

773
00:48:34,740 --> 00:48:38,380
I went to that were sponsored by a region of the world, not

774
00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:42,100
only a California region like Paso Robles or Napa, but

775
00:48:42,580 --> 00:48:46,240
Wines of Croatia, Wines of Italy, there's groups like

776
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:50,230
that. And important, again,

777
00:48:52,070 --> 00:48:55,390
when I won't name any names and throw anybody under the bus, but there have

778
00:48:55,390 --> 00:48:59,150
been attempts here in Los Angeles to do this and they've, they've

779
00:48:59,150 --> 00:49:02,629
fallen by the wayside. And I just had this conversation re recently

780
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:07,030
and the reason that they fell apart is because they were,

781
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:10,830
they were attracting consumers to

782
00:49:10,830 --> 00:49:14,630
the show, which is, is completely, I mean,

783
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:18,390
not ridiculous. It just makes no sense because the people that

784
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:21,630
need to buy the wines from these people are the restaurateurs

785
00:49:21,950 --> 00:49:25,710
and the wine shops and the grocery stores. So that

786
00:49:25,710 --> 00:49:29,430
if a consumer does taste a wine they like, they know where to go to

787
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:32,750
get it. But if you're just tasting wine with a consumer

788
00:49:33,070 --> 00:49:36,030
and then they say, where can I get it? And you say, well, you know,

789
00:49:36,270 --> 00:49:40,060
you go to Stepan's website, that's going to be it hit. That's not

790
00:49:40,060 --> 00:49:43,500
enough. And so I've been trying to teach here

791
00:49:43,740 --> 00:49:47,300
that we need to produce a show. And there's a, there's one gentleman actually in

792
00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:50,700
LA who puts on amazing tastings and they're trade only.

793
00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:54,700
You can't go as a consumer. And they're packed with buyers.

794
00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:58,020
And the buyers come and say, oh, where can I get this? Oh, here's the

795
00:49:58,020 --> 00:50:01,700
distributor's name and here's the price sheet and here's how you order

796
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:04,620
it. And so that they can put on the wine list or they can put

797
00:50:04,620 --> 00:50:06,780
it in, in their wine shop, or they can put it on the shelf at

798
00:50:06,780 --> 00:50:10,220
the market. Market. So that's, that part is really important to understand

799
00:50:10,380 --> 00:50:14,060
the, the, the chain of command when it comes to people

800
00:50:14,060 --> 00:50:17,740
trying to find their wines. And look, let's face it, you know, wine

801
00:50:17,740 --> 00:50:20,940
sales are off all over the world. And in fact,

802
00:50:22,140 --> 00:50:25,620
there was an Armenian restaurant here that was telling me that his bottle sales are

803
00:50:25,620 --> 00:50:29,340
off 40%. Well, that's, that's a lot. You know, that's really hard to recover

804
00:50:29,340 --> 00:50:32,980
from if you don't. Yes. Put effort into it. So. Well, I hope one day

805
00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:36,100
we get a chance to sit and taste some Musa wines together. Other.

806
00:50:36,660 --> 00:50:40,020
Definitely. Yeah. I'd be happy to host you

807
00:50:40,980 --> 00:50:44,740
and you know, and you're going to love our orange wine

808
00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:48,340
for sure. Are you an orange wine person or not

809
00:50:48,340 --> 00:50:52,140
really? You know, I tasted 100,000 wines in my career, and so I

810
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:55,660
was required to, to understand and appreciate all of it. So,

811
00:50:55,660 --> 00:50:59,500
yes. Just. Do you like it? Yeah, I do. I, I do like

812
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:03,030
it. As long as it's not like I said,

813
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:06,710
using the fact that it's an orange wine as an excuse to taste like, you

814
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:08,110
know, kombucha. Like I said,

815
00:51:10,590 --> 00:51:14,270
it doesn't need. I fully agree with you and share your opinion.

816
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:17,630
Yeah. So some of them do like

817
00:51:17,630 --> 00:51:21,470
kombucha. And I plan on coming to Yerevan

818
00:51:22,510 --> 00:51:26,230
maybe in the next 12 months. I want to shoot more

819
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:30,070
of the shows, the back label and. And highlights of more wineries and more

820
00:51:30,070 --> 00:51:33,790
people that do this trade. And that show is sort of like Anthony

821
00:51:33,790 --> 00:51:37,590
Bourdain's Parts Unknown, where we're not really talking about swirling and

822
00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:41,350
sniffing wine. We're talking about the struggles like we just did. We're talking about the

823
00:51:41,350 --> 00:51:44,750
people like we just did to get an understanding of what

824
00:51:44,750 --> 00:51:48,550
drives this passion. And it's clear to me, you and your

825
00:51:48,550 --> 00:51:50,990
husband have this passion to express

826
00:51:51,710 --> 00:51:55,290
Armenia, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

827
00:51:56,090 --> 00:51:59,810
Great. Such an honor to have you. Yeah. I'll be

828
00:51:59,810 --> 00:52:03,490
happy to meet in person. Paul, thank you very much for giving me the

829
00:52:03,490 --> 00:52:07,010
stage. I can talk about Musa and winemaking in Armenian

830
00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:10,650
wine for hours. Thank you for giving this chance. And we

831
00:52:10,650 --> 00:52:12,730
will. Cheers. Cheers.