Are Michelin Stars Ruining the True Spirit of Great Restaurants? Patric Kuh Tells All

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The line in the sand was never take anything for free. My

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editors had always said, if they recognize you, that's fine. You know, you

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can't, but never accept freebies. Why? Because it

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compromises your opinion in terms of what the reader's getting.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine

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Talks with Paul K. All

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right, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Callum Kerrien, available on

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Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, iTunes, and all your

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favorite podcast hangouts. Today we are

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gonna be entertained, fascinated. I don't

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even show all the expletives I can use. We're talking to Patrick Q,

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and that's no K on the Patrick, by the way, but a K on the

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Q. That's right. Yes. And he is a

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James Beard Foundation award-winning author. I don't

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know, would you call it cuisine or food or the history or what would, like,

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what's the category of that book? That's food writing. Food writing.

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Food writing, yeah. So name of that book is, The Last Days of Haute

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Cuisine. And if you are at all interested in

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food or the history of food in America, it's a must, must read. I already

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sent a copy off to my daughter in New York, by the way. Oh, good.

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Thank you. And, but most recently, the book Becoming a Restaurateur,

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which I looked at and said, it's gotta be a typo. Isn't it

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restaurateur? Yeah. No, the end disappears. And I don't know why.

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So, But a great book as well because they're

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really a good read for all of us have thought

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about it one time. I think I can run a restaurant.

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Yeah. There's something compelling about it and much,

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well, a lot of money has been lost by— Yeah, that's

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true. What is it? By people thinking that. What is it? 80% closure

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rates. There, there are many different statistics, but yes, the, the closure rate's enormous.

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And it's a very risky

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business. And even though I thought I knew

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quite a bit about restaurants since I'd been a restaurant critic for 17

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years, I, writing this book

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really made me aware of

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the demands of the job, which go from

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physical to emotional to cerebral.

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Yeah. to hospitable. Every, every, you're

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challenged in every way. Biteable so you can possibly— Yeah, all of them.

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But the most dramatic of them all is financial.

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There is a huge financial risk in opening a restaurant today.

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And you're, I wanna talk about that too, just because of the history of

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the government involved with the restaurants and how that's affected. Just

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look at the minimum wage this year. We're gonna talk about that. But let's go

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back to the beginning briefly so we can understand the

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experience level because, uh, the story where you're in the kitchen in Paris

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is hilarious. We'll talk about that. But you, you were in college, you said in

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Trinity College in, in, in Dublin. I, I attended Trinity College Dublin for

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1 year before dropping out. Yeah. But your mom was Irish. She was Irish.

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She was, uh, was she born in Ireland? Oh yeah. She was born in, uh,

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Mallow County, Cork. And, uh, was, uh, like,

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I, I, I'd say beatnik, which was sort of pre-hippie.

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Oh, really? I think they were almost pre-beatnik. I don't know quite. So post-war,

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Bohemians traveling around Europe. And your father is American?

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My father was American, born in New York City, um, was in

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the Air Force in the Second World War and decided that he wanted to be

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a poet in Europe and got whatever was left of his GI Bill,

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uh, went to Europe in the early '50s and, uh, and was a poet. That's

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fascinating. Yeah. So what part of Europe was he in? Uh,

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well, he settled in Spain, in the south of Spain. Wow. It was, uh, you

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know, at the time, very little tourism in Spain

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in the early '50s. So then how'd you end up at Trinity College? Because— Well,

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because when, when, when my parents divorced, we went back to Dublin and I,

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so I spent what, what the Irish call my deformative years in Dublin

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from 8 to 18. I thought maybe it was the only school that

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accepted you. Yeah, probably. Anyway. So,

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so you went there and you decided that wasn't happening and I, and the food

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kicked in somehow. So— Yeah, the, the food.

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I'd always enjoyed restaurants. My mother had

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worked in restaurants. I'd, I enjoyed food. It was,

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I, you know, food is a great entry point

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into a country for many people.

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So, so when I went, when I went to France, I

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immediately gravitated towards restaurants and

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And yeah, and became a, a passably good

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line cook. When— passably good.

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I've seen too many, I've seen too many great cooks to think that I was

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anywhere in there. But a passably good line cook. I could, I could, I could

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hold my station for— That's great. Well, that's an important feature.

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Yeah. Like my daughter worked the line. She wanted to learn how to work the

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line, so she worked the line. Okay. But what year was that about when

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you left school and you decided to go cook?

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'86. '86. Okay. So, well, and one of the

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things we, we, we've discussed before here with some other, with some

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people like Joachim, for instance, when he left Germany, it was,

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you know, that, that's where Europe is, right? You, you pick a trade typically

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to go into. If you decide that, you know, school, you just go

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to a trade tech. So you went to a cooking school, French cooking school. I

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went to French cooking school for a year, got a diploma. But I've never

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said I was a chef. Never, never, never. I know too many chefs. I know

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what it requires. I could hold my own at a

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station, but I was always writing. Writing is my

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passion.

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And restaurants allow you to do 2 things simultaneously. There's many

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people out there who are actors and work in restaurants. I happen to be a

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writer who worked in a restaurant. Right. So,

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I mean, a talent as great as Joachim Spieschl is in a

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totally different realm of cooking than my little corner

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of it. But it allowed me to earn a living while pursuing writing. Sure,

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sure. But you got some amazing experiences in the book.

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The book, I'm talking about The Last Days, is

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contemporary. I mean, it's contemporary because it's ageless stuff.

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It's history. with amazing research

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that allows a person that really doesn't

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understand the industry and how it came about and

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the cuisine, the way cuisine has changed over the years.

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You know, I talk about— I always think restaurants do reflect

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society in many ways. For sure. And in ways

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that

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sometimes it's hard to find the words to say how

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society is changing and restaurants somehow manage to do

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it just in their vibe and their look and

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what they're offering and who they're allowing in, you know, and who can

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experience restaurants. All sorts of much larger social

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changes are going on that have reflected in

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restaurants, how you pay for them. You know, the

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advent of the credit card was something we take for granted today,

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but dramatically changed who had access to the restaurant experience.

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That was an amazing part of the book. Before credit cards became

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widespread, you had to have a house account to

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settle the bill in many restaurants. Yeah. And essentially a house

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account meant the owners had vetted you socially

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and were you the right kind of person that they wanted eating in their

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restaurant. So suddenly the credit card

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comes along and if you've been extended credit by a

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bank, you can plop down this piece of

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in the beginning, paper. Yeah. Not even plastic,

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and pay for your experience. And that book did come

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about because of an anecdote, a specific anecdote.

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I was still working as a cook in San Francisco at the time,

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and Jacques Pépin was a friend of the

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owner. And one night at an event, Jacques Pépin started telling the

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story of the day that

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Henri Souley, who was the owner of the incredible Le Pavillon in New

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York, kicked out Joe Kennedy, the father of Joseph

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Kennedy, the father of Jack Kennedy,

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from his restaurant. And like, I was

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all ears. Like, that was like fascinating. Yeah. It was fascinating to me. It's like,

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because people don't realize there's a backstory to

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restaurants. Yeah. There's all sorts of things that have gone on. And

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just, let's briefly say, you know, Jack, John F. Kennedy had been

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elected president and they always ate at Le Pavillon,

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and he still hadn't been inaugurated. And they were eating at Le Pavillon, the

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entire Kennedy clan. And there was a photographer in the dining room,

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and Joseph Kennedy didn't like the idea of

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a photographer seeing the whole Kennedy clan eating in such an

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expensive restaurant. And he sort of summoned Henri Soulet

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and said, you know, kick him out.

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And the one thing you don't tell a French restaurant owner is what to do

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in his dining room. And Henri Soulet

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said, no, I'm not kicking him out.

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And, you know, their

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relationship was complicated. Some people think that Joseph

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Kennedy was one of the people who bankrolled Le Pavillon, but that was,

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that's never been made clear. But in any case, Henri Soulet was not about

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to be told what to do in his own dining room. The photographer stayed and

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the entire Kennedy clan got up and, and— And that was

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it. Left the restaurant. And, and I

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remember hearing, of course, Jacques Pépin worked at Le Pavillon, so this was

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like close to the source of restaurant history that I was hearing.

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And when he first came to the United States,

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long before he became an incredible author and food personality,

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and I remember just thinking, there has to be a book about

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how restaurants have reflected American culture. And so

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that's how I came about to write The Last Days of Haute Cuisine. So you

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answered my next question. I have to, I'm going to dovetail off for a second.

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My good friend Joe Kennedy, because he's responsible for all my headaches.

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And this is what I've determined. How's that? I've determined this. It finally

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hit me after 30 years of doing this. And that is, you know, he's responsible

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for the repeal of Prohibition, right, 1933. And he did it by

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having the responsibility of alcohol sales given to the

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states, right? So there's 50 states, 50 rules. But it really meant to

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me, now that I think about it, it was a way for him to give

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each territory through the government's already delineated

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state lines alcohol control. So okay, you

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know, Guido, you get Indiana and you get— and they

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just divvied it up, right? 'Cause he was the big rum runner of the United

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States at that time. So it's still in existence today. It

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competes, you know, the 21st Amendment competes with the Commerce Clause

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and there's no solution to it 'cause no one's willing to challenge it. No one's

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willing to take it to the Supreme Court and get a decision. So we suffer

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through all this. So anyway, that's my connection to Joe Kennedy. Okay. So

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you, the research in, in the last days, and I,

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let's, I wanna define haute cuisine for the

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listeners because there are lots of terms around. Yeah.

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And when I read your book, it became more

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complicated than just a level of food. It

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seemed like to me, uh, an actual, included the

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ambiance, like the terroir of a wine. It included the terroir of a restaurant.

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It included the, the wine, the chef included sort of like

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bundle. But is that— tell me what you're— Well, haute cuisine can mean many different

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things. I mean, as translated, it means high cooking.

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But there are many,

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I guess, within the French canon, there are many different types of cooking. There's

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cuisine de Provence. So that would be the cuisine that's

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regional cooking. There is cuisine bourgeoise, which is

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more

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kind of a seasonal cooking, but— Farmer,

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village cooking? Not so much more. It's more urban. It's more of a social

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class, but it's not— it's very true to its roots. It's

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very market-based.

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It's very simmered. It's thrifty.

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It's not— it's everyday food, but at a very

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high level. And haute cuisine is

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sort of the—

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how would I say it? The highest level. It's

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the NBA. It's the— And

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it's not just from the ingredients, it's from the preparation, it's from

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the chef who's making it. It's from— There are traditions. There are very much

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traditions. And Escoffier, of course, is considered the father of it.

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But in truth, it can be considered a

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pejorative term, like, oh, that's so haute cuisine, like

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outdated and sort of obsolete. Yes. Or it can be

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considered completely

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dependent on skill, talent,

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the prime, the best ingredients. Yes. There is

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a a contemporary version of haute cuisine,

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and it can feel very— it's what Michelin 3 stars are doing

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every day. It can be very authentic. Yeah. It can

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reflect talent, it can reflect seasons, it can reflect

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place. It can— you very much, when you say terroir,

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they're from a great restaurant in

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Alsace, it's completely different from a great restaurant in in

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Provence, just like a

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great restaurant in New York should be different from a great restaurant in Los

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Angeles. The thought that— first, I want to

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define Auguste Escoffier, who wrote his book in 1897, I

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think. Forgot the name of it. Le Guide Culinaire. Yeah, Le Guide Culinaire,

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which is the penultimate French cookbook,

230
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right? So he sort of— Yeah, it's outdated, but

231
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it influenced many a generation of chefs. At that time, he defined sort of this

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Yes. Baseline of French cooking. Yes. Which Julia Child took to the next level.

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But the, the idea of what you just mentioned, which is New

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York has a cuisine and LA has a cuisine. And one of the conversations I've

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had with different French winemakers

236
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and the growth of French wine and regions, as well as

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Italian, anything European really, where the region has got foods that

238
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tend to be paired with the wines they grow. Yeah. I don't think that's an

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accident. No, exactly. And here in America, we don't have indigenous wine, so we have

240
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this And Jacques Ladié from

241
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Louis Jadot said this to me. He says, you know, you have this new world

242
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to work with, so you get to play and do different things and create a

243
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cuisine. And I think that's very, particularly

244
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California, a very important facet of the way we eat.

245
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Yes. But your book was talking about the origins of French cooking.

246
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Was there a reason why the French, you know, I mean, obviously it's closest

247
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to Los Angeles, but all these French chefs came to New York at this sort

248
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of what, the '40s and '50s where they decided to— Well, yes. What was

249
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very interesting about Le Pavillon was it was sort of

250
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the landing spot

251
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for many chefs who then went on to other restaurants.

252
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So it was one of those restaurants that is, whose

253
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influence is massive because of the people who've worked there and have gone on

254
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to other restaurants. There

255
00:16:13,895 --> 00:16:16,930
had been French chefs, of course, in the United States

256
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before that,

257
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but it had never— what Le Pavillon did was

258
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not try and dumb it down. They were going for the highest level of French

259
00:16:29,418 --> 00:16:33,226
cooking that would've been the highest level in France. They just happened to do it

260
00:16:33,226 --> 00:16:35,213
on East 55th Street in New York. Yeah.

261
00:16:38,237 --> 00:16:41,783
Souley was an imperious character. He would not let

262
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men into dinner, never mind coat and tie. Of course, that was

263
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given. If they weren't wearing a white shirt for dinner, you had to wear a

264
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white shirt. Wow.

265
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He was— it was a different version of the restaurant business. You didn't turn the

266
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tables. Your table was yours for the entire evening.

267
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People, couples ate side by side in a very, you know, it's a beautiful way

268
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to eat, as you know. when you're sitting side by side with the person you

269
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want to sit side by side with. But that meant, that meant, you know, in

270
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restaurant just math, you're giving one table

271
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where you could get 2 tables in. Right. For sure. So, so

272
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if every table is a side-by-side table, it means you never turn the tables.

273
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It's your table for the evening. You pay a fortune for that.

274
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There was that, there was flowers, there was caviar service, there was,

275
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And so he had cooks like Pierre Freinet, who went on

276
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to be a columnist at the New York Times, the

277
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food section with Craig Claiborne. He had Jacques Pépin.

278
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They had restaurants. They went on to open La Caravelle.

279
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It was sort of a birthplace of many

280
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careers. Souley himself

281
00:17:57,437 --> 00:17:59,873
was his own worst enemy. He was constantly fighting with the staff.

282
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And, uh, um, by the end

283
00:18:04,822 --> 00:18:08,491
of his career, by 1961, when the restaurant finally

284
00:18:08,523 --> 00:18:12,289
closed, um, it, uh, you know,

285
00:18:12,353 --> 00:18:15,974
he, we, essentially he was not the lo— the great

286
00:18:16,919 --> 00:18:20,188
personage he had been when he'd ruled over New York society.

287
00:18:20,781 --> 00:18:24,130
So you heard this story from, about Joe Kennedy in San Francisco. Is this when

288
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:27,447
you were working as a private chef? No, no, I was just working for a,

289
00:18:27,511 --> 00:18:30,831
for a Not George Mardikian. No, I was writing for a, a

290
00:18:30,976 --> 00:18:34,643
Basque chef, Gérald Hirigoyen. Yeah. And

291
00:18:34,692 --> 00:18:37,861
Jacques Pépin was a friend of his. Yeah. So, so you thought, okay, I'm gonna,

292
00:18:37,877 --> 00:18:41,564
this is, this, this is a fascinating story. There must be something behind it all.

293
00:18:42,144 --> 00:18:45,863
And you set out now to, 'cause the research, the depth of research, including the

294
00:18:45,863 --> 00:18:49,668
credit card part of that, is, is phenomenal. So did you go to New York

295
00:18:49,668 --> 00:18:53,218
and just say, okay, I'm gonna start digging deeper? I, you know,

296
00:18:53,847 --> 00:18:57,367
writing a book is, is an interesting process and it's,

297
00:18:57,709 --> 00:19:01,251
It's a time-tested one. You write a proposal first, and the

298
00:19:01,251 --> 00:19:03,079
proposal takes it from,

299
00:19:05,715 --> 00:19:09,497
from a vague idea in your head to, okay, well, what is this

300
00:19:09,594 --> 00:19:13,100
gonna be? What, who are the characters? What are the themes? What are the

301
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:16,479
chapters? Um, uh, you have to write a sample

302
00:19:16,511 --> 00:19:20,309
chapter. Uh, this is if you want the publisher to give you an advance. Sure.

303
00:19:20,406 --> 00:19:24,055
So, uh, it's a good process because We all

304
00:19:24,184 --> 00:19:27,279
have kind of books in our heads and whatnot, but the problem is,

305
00:19:28,033 --> 00:19:31,641
okay, well, what's the shape? What's chapter 2? What's chapter

306
00:19:31,722 --> 00:19:35,426
3? Who's going to read it? Yeah, exactly. So it's a good process. I

307
00:19:35,426 --> 00:19:38,137
started writing a proposal. I was still cooking in restaurants.

308
00:19:39,404 --> 00:19:43,029
I wrote the sample chapter. You don't have to adhere to it.

309
00:19:43,205 --> 00:19:46,718
Nobody's going to say to you a year later if you sell the proposal,

310
00:19:47,038 --> 00:19:50,775
well, you said chapter 3 was going to be, you know, it's just, you have

311
00:19:50,807 --> 00:19:54,126
to convince somebody else that you know more or less what you're trying to do.

312
00:19:54,927 --> 00:19:57,577
And so I wrote the proposal, I sold the proposal,

313
00:19:59,730 --> 00:20:02,260
and then all of a sudden, of course, it's the moment of truth. Oh my

314
00:20:02,405 --> 00:20:06,111
goodness, now I have to actually stop pretending like I know what I'm

315
00:20:06,111 --> 00:20:09,871
talking about and actually know what I'm talking

316
00:20:09,903 --> 00:20:13,370
about. But with all writing, that was a great

317
00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:16,254
anecdote to hear, and it did provide me for that

318
00:20:17,995 --> 00:20:21,824
first place where So much in writing is where do I start

319
00:20:21,824 --> 00:20:25,372
pulling on the yarn? You know, I mean, there, and

320
00:20:25,372 --> 00:20:28,694
so an anecdote or action or something real

321
00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:33,366
is a great place to start pulling on the yarn. Doesn't mean your

322
00:20:33,398 --> 00:20:36,063
book's gonna start there, but you have

323
00:20:37,475 --> 00:20:41,167
something to work with. You have something to work with. Yes. Um, and I haven't

324
00:20:41,167 --> 00:20:43,511
gone through the whole thing just so you know, but I, so I'm not, I

325
00:20:43,511 --> 00:20:47,155
don't know, I do not wanna know how it ends. Oh, okay. Except that You

326
00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:51,026
know, the title is called The Last Days of Haute Cuisine. And

327
00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:54,303
that's why I thought maybe it had a lot to do with not only just

328
00:20:54,351 --> 00:20:57,853
the food, but the whole character. Like, for instance, on Soleil, having, you know, making

329
00:20:57,949 --> 00:21:01,418
you wear white shirts. Yeah. Because certainly there are restaurants

330
00:21:01,981 --> 00:21:05,819
around that serve, you know, food you would consider— well, I

331
00:21:05,819 --> 00:21:09,498
just got done. There's a restaurant in Disneyland, you know, called Royal 21 or 21

332
00:21:09,594 --> 00:21:13,421
Royal. It's $15,000 for 12 people. It's like the most

333
00:21:13,453 --> 00:21:16,584
expensive restaurant in America. Where's that? In Disneyland.

334
00:21:18,069 --> 00:21:21,636
So I'm hoping that's haute cuisine, right? At that price.

335
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:26,246
But that was one of those. So we have haute cuisine. And then

336
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:30,339
when I was talking to some other folks, we were talking about nouvelle cuisine. Tell

337
00:21:30,339 --> 00:21:33,241
me what your definition of nouvelle cuisine would be there.

338
00:21:35,659 --> 00:21:38,834
Well, just let me preface this by what I'm

339
00:21:39,437 --> 00:21:42,022
sort of what I meant by the last day of haute cuisine was the idea

340
00:21:42,022 --> 00:21:45,635
of exclusivity of haute cuisine and that only very select

341
00:21:45,635 --> 00:21:49,071
people could have the gastronomic

342
00:21:49,071 --> 00:21:52,491
experience. I see. And the, the, what, what the United States

343
00:21:53,486 --> 00:21:55,943
really said was, well,

344
00:21:57,420 --> 00:22:01,001
though, that's not really the way we operate. If you are interested

345
00:22:01,274 --> 00:22:03,907
and if you can afford it,

346
00:22:04,966 --> 00:22:08,731
There's no reason why your background, your social

347
00:22:08,731 --> 00:22:12,208
class, your ethnicity, or anything else should be a reason to

348
00:22:12,208 --> 00:22:15,765
not have the gastronomic experience. And

349
00:22:16,358 --> 00:22:19,739
unfortunately, all those things had been true

350
00:22:20,203 --> 00:22:23,680
before. You know, it was a very closed club of fine

351
00:22:23,712 --> 00:22:27,526
dining. So, so in the book, I do

352
00:22:27,574 --> 00:22:31,259
follow Chez Panisse. I, I explore Chez Panisse in

353
00:22:31,259 --> 00:22:35,038
Berkeley. How did a bunch of people who'd never cooked, who had BAs,

354
00:22:35,361 --> 00:22:39,170
MAs, PhDs, and whatever from Berkeley. Mm-hmm. To, you

355
00:22:39,170 --> 00:22:42,704
know, read a few books and say, hey, we're gonna do a

356
00:22:42,704 --> 00:22:46,149
restaurant. That's nice. And, and turn into one of the most

357
00:22:46,166 --> 00:22:49,756
important restaurants in this country. Just like, just like the Pavillon in terms of

358
00:22:50,128 --> 00:22:53,446
people who would come out of it, people who would work there establishing a, a

359
00:22:53,446 --> 00:22:57,024
whole aesthetic of cooking. I, I went to the

360
00:22:57,089 --> 00:23:00,892
early days of the new Las Vegas. I, I, I've, I went when,

361
00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:04,103
uh, Sergio Maccioni of Le Cirque opened Le Cirque at the,

362
00:23:05,083 --> 00:23:08,808
uh, uh, the Bellagio. Yeah. And okay, what does it mean when

363
00:23:08,808 --> 00:23:12,420
a guy who's worked at, you know, the Villa d'Este and the,

364
00:23:13,753 --> 00:23:16,451
the greatest restaurants in, in

365
00:23:17,205 --> 00:23:20,368
Europe and who started Le Cirque in New York, then started,

366
00:23:20,834 --> 00:23:24,238
but, you know, ran Le Cirque in New York. Um, what does it mean when

367
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:27,776
he's in a casino? Yeah. Well, it's a good question.

368
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,614
So, so anyway, that, but to get back to Nouvelle Cuisine, when it started, it

369
00:23:32,614 --> 00:23:35,802
was a, in very broad

370
00:23:35,995 --> 00:23:39,232
brushstrokes, it was a reaction against a certain

371
00:23:39,361 --> 00:23:41,583
heaviness that had settled into

372
00:23:44,530 --> 00:23:48,058
gastronomy in France. And a lot of the dishes seemed to be done by rote,

373
00:23:48,398 --> 00:23:51,214
and a lot of the dishes seemed to be there.

374
00:23:52,933 --> 00:23:56,539
with really to impress people, but not

375
00:23:56,539 --> 00:24:00,290
because it was seasonal or driven by a tradition or

376
00:24:00,290 --> 00:24:03,191
anything. And certain cooks,

377
00:24:03,816 --> 00:24:07,246
notably Paul Bocuse, Michel Guérard, Alain Chapel, the Troisgros

378
00:24:07,262 --> 00:24:10,131
brothers. So these are considered the fathers of Nouvelle Cuisine.

379
00:24:11,045 --> 00:24:14,330
They said, well, let's turn back a bit to our roots

380
00:24:14,635 --> 00:24:18,482
and be more aware of seasonal, be more aware of

381
00:24:18,482 --> 00:24:21,272
our regions, be more aware of of

382
00:24:22,429 --> 00:24:26,238
dishes that are incredible but are

383
00:24:26,302 --> 00:24:29,822
not, you know, impressive

384
00:24:30,051 --> 00:24:33,697
or kind of sanctioned by snobbery,

385
00:24:36,110 --> 00:24:39,860
or I don't quite know what the term is. Yeah. Now, that argument

386
00:24:39,925 --> 00:24:43,740
was oversimplified, and the critics of nouvelle

387
00:24:43,740 --> 00:24:47,028
cuisine said, well, it's not so light because every sauce is

388
00:24:47,142 --> 00:24:50,641
reduced cream. Yeah. And, you know, butter. Yeah. And butter. So,

389
00:24:52,964 --> 00:24:56,611
They may say roux, which is flour and butter mixed,

390
00:24:56,675 --> 00:25:00,418
which was the traditional thickening agent for sauces. They may say, oh, that's old school,

391
00:25:00,950 --> 00:25:04,667
but reducing a liter of cream to make, you know, 2

392
00:25:04,667 --> 00:25:07,336
spoonfuls of sauce is not exactly light. Yeah.

393
00:25:08,485 --> 00:25:11,624
So there was sort of, there were, you know, back and forth about it. But

394
00:25:11,624 --> 00:25:14,532
apart from how sauces are made, it was more about

395
00:25:15,137 --> 00:25:17,229
let's

396
00:25:19,853 --> 00:25:23,402
invest French gastronomy with some of its most basic

397
00:25:24,269 --> 00:25:27,837
beliefs. And yes, get it away

398
00:25:27,837 --> 00:25:30,944
from, from point— I forget, sorry. Get away from

399
00:25:31,964 --> 00:25:35,588
escoffier. Get it away from dishes that were invented for

400
00:25:35,588 --> 00:25:39,313
Russian archdukes in 1890. Right. You know, get

401
00:25:39,313 --> 00:25:43,006
it, get it into— That stuff's fascinating anyway. Isn't that fascinating?

402
00:25:43,103 --> 00:25:46,270
Yeah, it's fascinating. But If you were in 1965,

403
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,300
you know, you, you didn't need veal chop Orloff. Yeah. Right. Because Count Orloff,

404
00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:55,620
you know, had, had,

405
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:58,080
you know, greased somebody's palm. I will say

406
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Escoffier's béchamel has reduced

407
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,540
salt pork, you know, his, and it's pretty

408
00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:09,340
heavy and I love making it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know,

409
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,080
I use béchamel all the time when I'm making creamed spinach. Yeah. Because I, I

410
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,502
like, I like that kind of billowy, thing

411
00:26:16,534 --> 00:26:20,366
that béchamel can do. Well, Joachim said that he was like, he,

412
00:26:21,183 --> 00:26:24,870
first of all, he says, you know, I don't understand this nouvelle cuisine idea that's

413
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:27,964
not so new. He goes, in the '70s, I was walking to Nice down to

414
00:26:27,980 --> 00:26:31,523
the farmer's market. I'd go get fish right from the boat. We'd buy

415
00:26:31,523 --> 00:26:34,216
vegetables from the thing and take it to the restaurant and we wouldn't prep anything.

416
00:26:34,264 --> 00:26:37,695
We would just, we would start cooking when the, when the bell went off. Yeah.

417
00:26:37,743 --> 00:26:41,478
When the service started. And that's when it happened. And that's pretty new. Right?

418
00:26:41,542 --> 00:26:44,267
That is, that, that's a fantastic aspect of it. Yeah.

419
00:26:45,052 --> 00:26:48,899
Nothing, very little prepped in advance. Yeah. And the great masters of it

420
00:26:48,899 --> 00:26:52,377
who could work without a safety net, Freddy Girardet in

421
00:26:52,441 --> 00:26:55,695
Switzerland, Jacques Maximin at the Hôtel Negresco that

422
00:26:56,031 --> 00:26:59,862
Joachim worked with. Yes. Right. Yeah. Everything, lots of,

423
00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:03,853
lots of things were done. They had their mise en place done, but nothing was

424
00:27:03,901 --> 00:27:07,619
cooked in advance. And so that was real nouvelle cuisine. Yeah.

425
00:27:07,667 --> 00:27:11,393
Very fresh. Very fresh. Very immediate. very— the flavors were

426
00:27:11,393 --> 00:27:14,055
very pure, nothing denatured.

427
00:27:15,289 --> 00:27:18,992
When you started to peel this book back, did you

428
00:27:18,992 --> 00:27:22,667
find it more fascinating as it was going on? And just, you wanted

429
00:27:22,779 --> 00:27:25,600
to tack more stories in the book that you never got in there because they

430
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,052
become— they're just— you would've gone on forever. The Last Days of Herkules? Yes.

431
00:27:33,428 --> 00:27:37,170
Writing You, you

432
00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:40,450
can, you can have too many anecdotes. You can have too many characters. You can

433
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:44,230
have too many anecdotes. And it's sort of, it's one of the hardest things

434
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:47,970
about writing, cutting. Yes. Um, but you have— I really wanna say this

435
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:51,150
story. I think it's really fun. Yeah. Particularly when it's taken you a lot to

436
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:54,810
research it. Yes. Right. It's taken me months to find that fact out. You

437
00:27:54,810 --> 00:27:57,550
know, the amount of calls I had to make, the amount of libraries I had

438
00:27:57,550 --> 00:28:00,930
to go to to find that out. But tho— those, those are the hard calls.

439
00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:04,200
If it's not adding to, if it's not contributing to

440
00:28:04,652 --> 00:28:06,742
moving the narrative forward. Yeah.

441
00:28:08,363 --> 00:28:12,141
Um, invariably it's better cut. The author, the,

442
00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:15,046
the, the reader's never gonna know what was cut. So,

443
00:28:16,191 --> 00:28:19,968
you know, you sort of just take one for the team and say, it's

444
00:28:19,968 --> 00:28:23,314
gotta go. Yes, I did. Not everything I know has to be in this. I

445
00:28:23,363 --> 00:28:26,914
think it was Soleil that was on the COVID of Life, or— He was quoted

446
00:28:26,914 --> 00:28:29,791
in Life many times. He wasn't, I don't think he ever was on the COVID

447
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:32,074
There was a cover. One, you, one, you mentioned it in one of the, um,

448
00:28:32,450 --> 00:28:35,650
In one of the— He was in Time Magazine. There was a hat. He's got

449
00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:38,390
a top hat on. If it's Soleil or one of the other guys that, or

450
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:42,210
maybe it was the critic. Lucius Beebe? Yeah.

451
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:44,710
That's him. Yeah. So I'm like, I went and looked it up, you know? I'm

452
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:47,930
like, I gotta see if this is real or what this picture looks like. 'Cause

453
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:51,450
I'm always in antique stores and you see these Life magazines. I know one that'd

454
00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:54,790
be interesting to get an article about food. So

455
00:28:54,790 --> 00:28:58,575
we met each other at the Arthur J. in in

456
00:28:59,268 --> 00:29:02,575
Manhattan Beach, a great restaurant. You know, we love to come there and we sit

457
00:29:02,575 --> 00:29:06,338
side by side. Yeah, great. I love it. But

458
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:10,292
that one night we're sitting there and somebody's congratulating you

459
00:29:10,292 --> 00:29:13,403
for your book. And then you said, yes, I have a book signing tomorrow, which

460
00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:16,905
is across the street at Pages. And I'm like, what book, Patrick?

461
00:29:17,837 --> 00:29:21,677
And it's this Becoming a Restaurateur. And

462
00:29:21,790 --> 00:29:25,206
I went home and Googled your name. I said, well, this guy's pretty

463
00:29:25,206 --> 00:29:28,990
credentialed writer and a very good writer. I mean, I told Sandra, you gotta read

464
00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:32,564
these books. Like I said, I sent my daughter in New York a copy of

465
00:29:33,718 --> 00:29:36,941
Last Days. Okay. And I've sent her a copy of this already

466
00:29:37,646 --> 00:29:41,413
because she's in the business. And so she sees, she sees your stories. Now

467
00:29:41,477 --> 00:29:45,260
your stories are, the story in the restaurant tour book is a little bit void

468
00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:48,819
of the stress, right? I mean, you convey

469
00:29:49,268 --> 00:29:51,656
what it takes to do it. You gotta go to the planning commission, you gotta

470
00:29:51,656 --> 00:29:54,878
get, you know, the neighbors coming, they're gonna complain about the parking. All those things

471
00:29:54,878 --> 00:29:58,696
are real. Those are real things. I'll tell you a little

472
00:29:58,728 --> 00:30:02,372
story. Lisa, my daughter, was here and she's the head baking chef

473
00:30:02,420 --> 00:30:05,743
for 3 restaurants in New York. Oh. Jonathan Benno,

474
00:30:06,433 --> 00:30:09,884
Leonelli, which is his restaurant in a hotel and also a bakery.

475
00:30:10,912 --> 00:30:14,411
And while she was here, they made some personnel

476
00:30:14,459 --> 00:30:18,039
changes. So when she got back, she was now the head pastry chef as well.

477
00:30:18,713 --> 00:30:22,292
And possibly, you know, filling on the line when she has to because,

478
00:30:23,432 --> 00:30:26,774
you know, as most restaurants go through that period where you need to be

479
00:30:26,774 --> 00:30:30,300
cognizant of wages and, yes, and food costs. So,

480
00:30:30,574 --> 00:30:33,946
yes. She's, she's gonna be reading this and saying, oh

481
00:30:33,946 --> 00:30:37,733
yeah, we're going through this now. But I

482
00:30:37,733 --> 00:30:41,405
did, I wanna ask you this question. I did look up the

483
00:30:41,453 --> 00:30:45,254
diner. Did it ever open? It's, I think it's gonna

484
00:30:45,254 --> 00:30:48,673
open soon. All Day Baby. All Day Baby. Yes. It's gonna open soon. It's gonna

485
00:30:48,673 --> 00:30:50,245
be fabulous from what I understand.

486
00:30:52,396 --> 00:30:55,708
But yeah, that book, we did meet at the Arthur J.

487
00:30:56,112 --> 00:30:59,553
I'm now a manager at a restaurant in Manhattan

488
00:30:59,666 --> 00:31:03,038
Beach. That's its own story of how magazines sort of

489
00:31:03,296 --> 00:31:07,053
have fallen on hard times. But I love working there.

490
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,888
It's taught me a lot about the

491
00:31:10,888 --> 00:31:14,634
hardships of restaurants. Yeah. The emotional toll, the

492
00:31:14,715 --> 00:31:17,690
physical toll, the Just the hours.

493
00:31:18,754 --> 00:31:22,558
How's that changed from when you were in the kitchen in Paris and San

494
00:31:22,558 --> 00:31:26,266
Francisco as a private cook in San Francisco? How has it

495
00:31:26,266 --> 00:31:30,055
changed much? Well, I think restaurants have become a far more important

496
00:31:30,055 --> 00:31:32,490
part of people's everyday. That's true.

497
00:31:34,371 --> 00:31:36,398
Does Arthur J. have DoorDash?

498
00:31:39,285 --> 00:31:42,815
We vary our There's some,

499
00:31:43,411 --> 00:31:47,184
we're taking some of them, not taking others. It's a bit of a

500
00:31:47,184 --> 00:31:49,910
work in progress. I was just wondering who gets a steak. It's a bit of

501
00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:53,432
a work in progress. I'm a hot steak on Grubhub or something. So, but I

502
00:31:53,481 --> 00:31:57,325
would, that's interesting to know. Like, but restaurants have become a far more important part

503
00:31:57,325 --> 00:32:00,653
of people's everyday. It used to be

504
00:32:04,223 --> 00:32:05,644
special occasion destination,

505
00:32:08,186 --> 00:32:11,054
save up and go out. Now life

506
00:32:11,815 --> 00:32:15,363
has sort of changed and this whole

507
00:32:15,461 --> 00:32:17,786
casual dining segment is

508
00:32:19,588 --> 00:32:23,369
just because people have long stressful days and having a restaurant meal at the

509
00:32:23,369 --> 00:32:27,202
end of it is sort of one

510
00:32:27,234 --> 00:32:31,055
of the great pleasures of everyday life these days. It's

511
00:32:31,055 --> 00:32:34,822
where people gather, it's where families gather. It's, I mean, it was always

512
00:32:34,855 --> 00:32:38,670
the case, but now it's even more so. We make time for each

513
00:32:38,670 --> 00:32:42,170
other in restaurants now. I only have— I have— there's a piece of chicken in

514
00:32:42,170 --> 00:32:45,150
the kitchen right now at our house that's been sitting there for 3 days because

515
00:32:45,150 --> 00:32:48,490
every time we come home, we're going to prepare it. We're like, too

516
00:32:48,490 --> 00:32:51,910
tired. Let's go to our favorite watering hole. Right? That's what it's about. And I

517
00:32:51,910 --> 00:32:55,690
have this— I know it's crazy, but— and Sandra would never let

518
00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:58,230
me do it on my own. She'd think you're nuts. But if my daughter comes

519
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:01,590
back from New York and she wants to open here, I'm all in. I mean,

520
00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:05,010
I want to test it. I just really want to test. my skillset to help

521
00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:08,530
her and maybe apply some business acumen to what she's

522
00:33:08,530 --> 00:33:12,230
doing. Right. Yeah. But I'm glad you brought up the magazine thing. You were the

523
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:16,010
food writer for LA Magazine. Yeah. Was LA Magazine part of

524
00:33:16,010 --> 00:33:18,750
the Times? No, it was a separate— no, no, no. It was always separate. Los

525
00:33:18,750 --> 00:33:22,350
Angeles Magazine. Los Angeles Magazine. Is the magazine gone? No, Los Angeles Magazine is still

526
00:33:22,350 --> 00:33:26,170
there, but like every other magazine's having to figure things

527
00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:29,750
out with fewer ads

528
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:33,330
and more space to, you know, smaller budget

529
00:33:33,330 --> 00:33:36,895
and, you know, the internet. Yeah. has, the internet

530
00:33:36,895 --> 00:33:40,666
provides many useful tools in

531
00:33:40,698 --> 00:33:44,259
terms of addresses and information and whatnot. And magazines, just like

532
00:33:44,308 --> 00:33:47,674
newspapers, have had to sort of— Big changes.

533
00:33:47,867 --> 00:33:51,489
Well, figure out, well, what is our purpose? And I am a

534
00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:55,212
newspaper and magazine reader and lover, and I will

535
00:33:55,261 --> 00:33:59,037
always read them. But nobody in

536
00:33:59,621 --> 00:34:03,137
the magazine business is would tell you that things haven't

537
00:34:03,137 --> 00:34:06,663
changed. Yeah. What, uh, how long were you there? I was the

538
00:34:06,663 --> 00:34:10,513
restaurant critic of Los Angeles Magazine for 17 years. Wow. That's, that's quite a run.

539
00:34:10,772 --> 00:34:14,557
Yeah. So you must have known Jonathan Gold. Yes. These guys.

540
00:34:14,735 --> 00:34:17,421
Yes. The other, all the rest. Wonderful. Great writer.

541
00:34:19,103 --> 00:34:22,655
Did you ever have, and I, I, I would think during this book,

542
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,607
either book, and certainly as the critic, the ratatouille

543
00:34:26,607 --> 00:34:29,842
moment where you sat at a restaurant and you ate a dish and you went,

544
00:34:30,878 --> 00:34:34,391
OMG, either this is my, my childhood

545
00:34:34,888 --> 00:34:38,707
from my mom being a chef. Yeah. Or this was one of the

546
00:34:38,739 --> 00:34:42,092
best things I've ever tasted in my life. Well, many times I had

547
00:34:42,605 --> 00:34:45,910
this, one of the best things I've ever tasted in my life. Um,

548
00:34:46,455 --> 00:34:50,017
just because the level of chefs in LA is so high. Yes. Um,

549
00:34:50,305 --> 00:34:54,140
even though, you know, for many years we were sort of second

550
00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:57,961
fiddle to San Francisco and California, but I, I mean, the level of food here

551
00:34:58,170 --> 00:35:01,787
is fantastic, and I'm glad that the chefs today are getting the

552
00:35:02,815 --> 00:35:06,587
recognition that they deserve. I didn't have

553
00:35:06,765 --> 00:35:10,098
the Proustian madeleine, you know, this

554
00:35:10,098 --> 00:35:11,781
flavor takes me back.

555
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:19,736
Yeah. But yeah, that movie came out when I was

556
00:35:21,365 --> 00:35:25,170
a working critic, and it was certainly funny that that was people's version

557
00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:28,970
of what a restaurant critic is kind of. Yeah. Well, of course. Yeah. Well,

558
00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:32,530
my mom's an incredible cook. She's cooked, you know, I was, my love

559
00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:35,210
of cooking myself, I cook all the time. And I was a chef. I was

560
00:35:35,210 --> 00:35:38,890
a, you know, I actually worked at a beach diner and

561
00:35:38,890 --> 00:35:42,490
loved it. And I was in charge of the whole kitchen

562
00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:46,230
and it was an old Italian guy, Mr. Salantino. And he taught

563
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:50,070
me that you must keep this kitchen spotless. I wanna walk in at any

564
00:35:50,070 --> 00:35:53,350
given time. I don't wanna see anything anywhere. It's, you use the knife, put it

565
00:35:53,350 --> 00:35:56,814
back. Make sure that grill's scrubbed all the time. And I live by that.

566
00:35:57,569 --> 00:36:01,326
And when I cook at home, I do the same thing. And the rest of

567
00:36:01,359 --> 00:36:04,602
my family doesn't really do that. It drives me crazy. And my daughter, who now

568
00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:08,134
is the baking chef, used to make the biggest mess there ever. And now

569
00:36:08,423 --> 00:36:11,827
she's got the towel over her shoulder when she comes to work. It's spotless. Why?

570
00:36:12,277 --> 00:36:15,697
Because she went to French pastry school and she worked in Paris.

571
00:36:16,452 --> 00:36:18,587
And you just don't do that. No. The kitchens

572
00:36:18,619 --> 00:36:22,279
are— You know, the, the kitchen at RC after 30

573
00:36:22,295 --> 00:36:26,131
years, you'd think they built it yesterday. I mean,

574
00:36:26,163 --> 00:36:29,116
I don't want— they gave us a tour and it's like, this is unbelievable. This

575
00:36:29,116 --> 00:36:32,952
is RC in Lyon, uh, 2-star Michelin. Yeah. It's a tradition in

576
00:36:33,048 --> 00:36:36,483
France that after each service you sand down the range. Yeah. Yeah,

577
00:36:36,579 --> 00:36:39,853
that's right. You know, every piece of metal is shiny.

578
00:36:40,431 --> 00:36:44,058
There's no caked-on food on the range. And so,

579
00:36:44,219 --> 00:36:47,825
but Now, let me ask you a question. This— if you— and I,

580
00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:51,574
I, I kind of look around now because of that

581
00:36:51,574 --> 00:36:55,356
experience, but there's a lot of American kitchens that aren't like that. You know,

582
00:36:55,420 --> 00:36:58,961
they just— they weren't trained that way. And when Lisa did her

583
00:36:58,961 --> 00:37:02,293
stage days at a couple of different restaurants in New York, she left them saying,

584
00:37:02,325 --> 00:37:06,171
no, I'm not working here because the kitchens weren't to that standard. Isn't that an

585
00:37:06,171 --> 00:37:09,808
important standard to have in a— Well, every, every, every chef

586
00:37:09,856 --> 00:37:12,596
runs his own kitchen the way he or she wants to.

587
00:37:16,331 --> 00:37:19,522
You know, you, you could make an argument having, having

588
00:37:20,741 --> 00:37:24,012
your teenage cook sanding down the range for 2 hours is—

589
00:37:24,670 --> 00:37:28,294
Oh, I had a pumice stone. Yeah. It's not, it's not

590
00:37:28,534 --> 00:37:31,757
proper either. I mean, I don't, I don't know what is proper. It's

591
00:37:32,527 --> 00:37:36,199
what's, what's, what's proper is a, is

592
00:37:36,328 --> 00:37:40,080
a kitchen where standards are maintained, where corners are not cut,

593
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,839
where the guests is always,

594
00:37:44,842 --> 00:37:48,401
the guests' needs are always considered above

595
00:37:48,401 --> 00:37:50,788
everything else and where the team respects each other.

596
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:55,831
That said, working in a dirty kitchen, nobody's gonna enjoy that.

597
00:37:56,381 --> 00:38:00,068
But they're big, big aspects to

598
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,886
running a kitchen. So going back to the original question, it was

599
00:38:03,886 --> 00:38:07,269
like a tangent all the time, but we were in Paris, we were sitting at

600
00:38:07,269 --> 00:38:11,105
a brasserie somewhere, and I ordered the quiche. And

601
00:38:11,105 --> 00:38:14,655
this quiche came, and I was 5 years old because my

602
00:38:14,655 --> 00:38:18,445
mom made the same quiche, turkey and broccoli. I forgot, was that

603
00:38:18,477 --> 00:38:21,592
quiche Lorraine? I don't know which one it is. Quiche Lorraine has

604
00:38:22,347 --> 00:38:26,170
cheese. Cheese, yeah. Onion too. Onion, yeah. This

605
00:38:26,282 --> 00:38:29,879
was a broccoli turkey thing. And then I sat there and my wife's like,

606
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,397
what's going on? I said, I cannot believe I'm back in Palace Verdi Estates in

607
00:38:33,445 --> 00:38:36,893
1969. you know, 5 with this meal is

608
00:38:36,893 --> 00:38:40,387
amazing to me. So I thought, and I, with wine it's the

609
00:38:40,387 --> 00:38:43,657
same, you know, our senses are so memorable

610
00:38:44,395 --> 00:38:48,114
and you can remember things. There are wines I've tasted years ago

611
00:38:48,194 --> 00:38:51,801
that if they bring them now, I will say I've tasted this

612
00:38:52,009 --> 00:38:55,439
just by smelling it. Amazing. Because it's, it's such a memorable sense.

613
00:38:56,177 --> 00:38:58,774
And food I think is the same way. That's why I asked you that question.

614
00:38:59,078 --> 00:39:02,605
Yeah. So at the, at, when you're at LA, at LA Magazine, you, your

615
00:39:02,765 --> 00:39:05,250
daily job was what did, what did you do as a food critic? I think

616
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:08,327
people would like to hear Like, what else would you really do? I would go

617
00:39:08,327 --> 00:39:12,034
to restaurants. I would keep my anonymity. I had credit cards that had

618
00:39:12,034 --> 00:39:15,660
different names on them. I would keep track of my reservations and what

619
00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:19,422
name I'd used. You know, it was an

620
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:23,173
interesting period because the

621
00:39:23,222 --> 00:39:26,940
cell phone came in, caller ID came in during all this time.

622
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:31,790
So— So you were busted. So yeah, you were, there would be times where I'd

623
00:39:31,790 --> 00:39:35,478
be giving one name and the, and the hostess would see, you know, my name

624
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:37,825
and the, or, All, there's all sorts of,

625
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:41,540
technology was evolving as I was,

626
00:39:43,348 --> 00:39:46,943
you know, doing this. Yeah. The line in the sand was

627
00:39:46,975 --> 00:39:50,566
never take anything for free. My editors had always said,

628
00:39:51,001 --> 00:39:54,544
you know, if they, if they recognize you, that's fine. You know, you

629
00:39:54,544 --> 00:39:58,356
can't, but never accept freebies. Why? Because it

630
00:39:58,356 --> 00:40:01,843
compromises your opinion in terms of what the reader

631
00:40:04,543 --> 00:40:07,015
of what the reader's getting. You know, if,

632
00:40:08,331 --> 00:40:11,910
and I don't say this with naivete because it

633
00:40:12,022 --> 00:40:14,815
takes a big budget to pay for somebody to go out to dinner all the

634
00:40:14,815 --> 00:40:18,009
time. And if you're working for a very small

635
00:40:19,164 --> 00:40:22,390
neighborhood newspaper, there is no budget. Yeah. You either pay for the meal yourself or

636
00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:26,226
the restaurateur gives it to you. But I was lucky enough

637
00:40:26,226 --> 00:40:28,777
to work for a magazine that had the budget. And

638
00:40:31,143 --> 00:40:33,686
the goal was to give a reader

639
00:40:34,059 --> 00:40:37,670
unbiased opinion of

640
00:40:37,767 --> 00:40:40,946
what going to eat at this place was.

641
00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:45,239
And if the restaurateur had just given

642
00:40:45,449 --> 00:40:49,196
you and, you know, 5 friends incredible meal.

643
00:40:49,502 --> 00:40:53,330
Yeah. Just a meal. Your opinion was compromised.

644
00:40:53,411 --> 00:40:57,025
Yeah. You could not, It's a good point. Yeah. Really good point. So,

645
00:40:57,410 --> 00:41:01,243
so I was very lucky to work in that version of restaurant reviewing where

646
00:41:01,548 --> 00:41:05,284
I could, if perhaps not always be, do it anonymously, but always

647
00:41:05,316 --> 00:41:09,085
do it with the magazine paying. And you were doing all levels. You were

648
00:41:09,085 --> 00:41:12,003
doing diners to taco stands to— I tried to do all,

649
00:41:12,516 --> 00:41:16,189
all, all levels. And certainly roundups allowed you to

650
00:41:16,445 --> 00:41:20,294
write about small places, give them a few words, you know, 20,

651
00:41:20,310 --> 00:41:23,988
30 words. But I was, I guess it was old school

652
00:41:23,988 --> 00:41:27,668
traditional reviewing, which was 3 or 4 pages with pictures about one place

653
00:41:28,182 --> 00:41:31,942
and a magazine, our magazine at 12 issues a year. So, you know, I got

654
00:41:31,942 --> 00:41:35,380
to weigh in on 12 restaurants a year. Weekly

655
00:41:35,959 --> 00:41:39,751
newspaper reviewing is, you know, you have to produce

656
00:41:39,751 --> 00:41:42,546
one every week and that's a lot. That's very hard to do. That's a lot.

657
00:41:42,627 --> 00:41:46,033
I really respect people who, who, who write a weekly restaurant review.

658
00:41:47,382 --> 00:41:51,204
It allows you to do a bit more, quite a bit more, but

659
00:41:51,396 --> 00:41:55,041
it's still all the restaurant newspaper

660
00:41:55,089 --> 00:41:58,461
restaurant critics I know, they certainly keep to the

661
00:41:59,344 --> 00:42:03,165
as anonymous as possible and certainly paying for everything that they eat. So

662
00:42:03,181 --> 00:42:06,392
that in that time, because I have the Michelin Guide here. In

663
00:42:06,810 --> 00:42:10,213
fact, in this book is where I learned that why the Michelin Guide started in

664
00:42:10,213 --> 00:42:13,954
1929 and they wanted you to drive cars to use a the rubber so that

665
00:42:13,954 --> 00:42:17,614
they, you'd buy more tires. Right. So they, they didn't review restaurants in

666
00:42:17,710 --> 00:42:21,451
Paris. Wow. I see. Really? Yeah. Only in the outskirts, outskirting villages.

667
00:42:21,499 --> 00:42:25,078
So, but it was void in Los Angeles for a long

668
00:42:25,191 --> 00:42:28,497
time. And, and I, as of like even a month and a half ago or

669
00:42:28,497 --> 00:42:32,141
3 months ago, you could bring up the Michelin Guide. There were no starred

670
00:42:32,414 --> 00:42:36,058
or suggested restaurants in Los Angeles. And now they're out there again.

671
00:42:36,251 --> 00:42:39,204
When you were working with, was the Michelin Guide in? There was a period when

672
00:42:39,236 --> 00:42:42,294
Michelin came and went. And I don't think they've quite got LA.

673
00:42:43,649 --> 00:42:45,584
And then they've returned recently. Yeah.

674
00:42:46,149 --> 00:42:49,972
And I know and admire

675
00:42:50,133 --> 00:42:53,893
several of the chefs who've received Michelin stars, and I'm incredibly

676
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:57,154
happy for them. I know it's had a great effect on their business.

677
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:03,816
So that was my next question. The effect on the

678
00:43:03,865 --> 00:43:05,884
business is— yeah. Is it dramatic?

679
00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:13,046
Huge. Yeah. There's, I mean, the restaurants, for

680
00:43:13,062 --> 00:43:15,164
instance, Cali, a great restaurant chef,

681
00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:24,160
Kevin Meehan and Drew Langley.

682
00:43:28,047 --> 00:43:31,176
They got a Michelin star, well-deserved Michelin star, incredible food,

683
00:43:31,192 --> 00:43:34,070
incredible wine service. And

684
00:43:34,732 --> 00:43:38,433
yes, Chef Meehan was telling me, Kevin, Chef

685
00:43:38,466 --> 00:43:42,210
Kevin was telling me the other day, it's

686
00:43:42,210 --> 00:43:42,858
completely

687
00:43:43,133 --> 00:43:46,709
transformed the

688
00:43:46,709 --> 00:43:50,367
business. It gave them a great breath of new blood,

689
00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:55,453
new customers, new energy. And it was fantastic.

690
00:43:55,649 --> 00:43:59,486
Because When we are— I

691
00:43:59,534 --> 00:44:02,338
only trusted that guide. And so when you're in Europe,

692
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:06,873
because it's done internally, there's— it's not Yelp. But I, I mean,

693
00:44:06,921 --> 00:44:10,639
I'm sorry, but Yelp and Foursquare and all these other ones,

694
00:44:11,071 --> 00:44:14,260
I mean, I don't care what the other— what some guy thinks, 'cause we don't

695
00:44:14,260 --> 00:44:17,801
think the same way. But when— but Michelin is all internal. Only they review their

696
00:44:17,801 --> 00:44:21,614
own stuff and they make recommendations. And the ones we— even in

697
00:44:21,711 --> 00:44:24,963
Croatia, uh, in Hvar, in this little town, we found a

698
00:44:25,156 --> 00:44:28,810
recommended restaurant in the Michelin Guide. It was incredible. So I

699
00:44:28,922 --> 00:44:32,353
only trust it. And I was really disappointed at the time. I had Molly Hill

700
00:44:32,465 --> 00:44:35,815
from Sequoia Grove in here. This is, I don't know, maybe 6, few months ago,

701
00:44:35,831 --> 00:44:38,299
3 or 4 months ago. And I looked at my phone and it wasn't up

702
00:44:38,315 --> 00:44:41,457
there. So they had just come on because they're on here now. Uh, LA,

703
00:44:41,906 --> 00:44:45,608
Nancy Silverton got a star for Mozza. And yeah, quite a few

704
00:44:45,608 --> 00:44:49,423
restaurants got— So I brought up your name. Uh, I was, we were in Manhattan

705
00:44:49,536 --> 00:44:53,330
Beach. Uh, we ate at Love and Salt with some friends. Oh yeah. And

706
00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:55,910
there's a Krikorian South,

707
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:59,650
uh, pizza. And I looked at that, I go, that's kind

708
00:44:59,650 --> 00:45:03,010
of strange. And I know Mike well, he's, uh, you know, Nancy's

709
00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:06,350
friend. And so I text him, I go, is this pizza yours? I took a

710
00:45:06,350 --> 00:45:08,570
picture of the thing. He goes, yeah, that's mine. He goes, I'm a good friend

711
00:45:08,570 --> 00:45:12,230
of the chef there who wasn't in at the time. So he, I

712
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:15,690
said, well, and we started talking afterward. I talked to him yesterday about some stuff

713
00:45:15,690 --> 00:45:18,570
and he says, uh, I told him I was going to be talking to you

714
00:45:18,570 --> 00:45:21,862
today. He goes, oh, say hi to him. He's, he was the, uh, He was—

715
00:45:22,055 --> 00:45:25,026
he knew— he knew who you were. You know Mike? Mike was the— I don't

716
00:45:25,042 --> 00:45:28,223
know him, but yeah, I know his— He was the gang beat writer for the

717
00:45:28,223 --> 00:45:31,998
LA Times. Yeah, he's written quite a few op-ed pieces I've enjoyed, yeah.

718
00:45:32,319 --> 00:45:35,274
He's a great guy. Last time I talked to him, before that he was in

719
00:45:35,371 --> 00:45:38,166
Umbria with Nancy, and

720
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,234
somebody had bought for

721
00:45:41,250 --> 00:45:44,944
$50,000 at a charity event dinner for 4 or

722
00:45:44,944 --> 00:45:48,380
8 at her house in Umbria. Wow. And that's when he was

723
00:45:48,656 --> 00:45:52,328
entertaining them. So, so what's next for, for Patrick Hugues when it comes to

724
00:45:52,393 --> 00:45:55,890
writing, uh, restauranting? Um, I know that,

725
00:45:56,052 --> 00:45:59,858
um, well, I, I don't know. I'll, I'll, I'm gonna pursue, I,

726
00:45:59,955 --> 00:46:02,629
I'm always gonna be writing. Yeah. I hope, um,

727
00:46:03,545 --> 00:46:06,808
um, I, I hope to continue, um,

728
00:46:07,322 --> 00:46:10,618
developing in the restaurant field

729
00:46:10,651 --> 00:46:12,510
professionally. Um,

730
00:46:14,718 --> 00:46:18,519
It's always a challenge, but,

731
00:46:19,969 --> 00:46:23,742
and there's evenings that can leave you very dispirited if,

732
00:46:23,758 --> 00:46:27,591
you know, if you've missed things that you could have

733
00:46:27,591 --> 00:46:31,266
gotten better. But it's also a business

734
00:46:31,266 --> 00:46:35,099
that you have to shake things off. And tomorrow's a new day. You see

735
00:46:35,116 --> 00:46:38,825
all the kinds. And you shake it off and you try

736
00:46:38,874 --> 00:46:42,638
and make it better. And that's a pretty good philosophy for life. You

737
00:46:42,703 --> 00:46:45,420
know, I think learning to shake things off is

738
00:46:46,843 --> 00:46:47,166
good.

739
00:46:50,625 --> 00:46:54,365
And always striving to be better is good too. And so I think

740
00:46:54,494 --> 00:46:56,961
restaurants in their own way

741
00:46:58,361 --> 00:47:01,980
are constantly challenging us to develop good

742
00:47:01,980 --> 00:47:05,736
traits and improve. A lot of patience. A

743
00:47:05,736 --> 00:47:09,569
lot of patience, a lot of hours. And They're,

744
00:47:09,649 --> 00:47:13,308
aren't they like little microcosms of life? Just happens, it happens to

745
00:47:13,356 --> 00:47:17,112
play out every night from, you know, from 5 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Well,

746
00:47:17,128 --> 00:47:20,899
yeah. You know, a, a, a, a very experienced maître d', while I was

747
00:47:21,204 --> 00:47:24,992
re— researching this book, uh, um, um,

748
00:47:25,313 --> 00:47:28,972
Becoming a Restaurateur, said to me, you know, sometimes

749
00:47:29,149 --> 00:47:32,905
I look around about 8 o'clock at night and everything's going right and

750
00:47:32,937 --> 00:47:36,595
it just gives me goosebumps. Yeah. You know, because everything is going right.

751
00:47:37,253 --> 00:47:40,526
And it's, it's so easy in restaurants for things to go wrong. But,

752
00:47:41,681 --> 00:47:45,210
but when things go right, it's, it's magical. And when you see all the

753
00:47:45,210 --> 00:47:48,660
smiles of people at the table, it's kind of addictive. You know, it's like, wow,

754
00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:52,542
I played a small part and these people are having a great time.

755
00:47:52,670 --> 00:47:56,088
It's intoxicating. Yeah. And so, so I love it.

756
00:47:56,617 --> 00:47:59,665
So there's an author, her name is

757
00:47:59,954 --> 00:48:03,612
Frances Dieckenspiel. She wrote a book called Tangled Vines. It's an incredible

758
00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:05,314
story of the wine industry,

759
00:48:07,435 --> 00:48:11,115
fraud, deceit, murder, arson, that part of it.

760
00:48:11,372 --> 00:48:14,611
Okay. Having actually started in 1750 in

761
00:48:14,903 --> 00:48:18,741
Cucamonga. Oh, didn't make its way to Napa until 1850. Okay. So I talked to

762
00:48:18,741 --> 00:48:21,204
her a little bit, and this is why I'm gonna bring this up. Talking about

763
00:48:21,220 --> 00:48:24,747
books. My dad's story here,

764
00:48:25,037 --> 00:48:28,600
he invented this industry in 1972. It's a $3 billion industry.

765
00:48:29,471 --> 00:48:32,318
And the growth of this company as it's gone through the

766
00:48:33,186 --> 00:48:36,350
seasons and the changes in marketing and people's perception of

767
00:48:36,929 --> 00:48:40,624
mail-order companies and wine, et cetera, has endured all of it. And

768
00:48:40,881 --> 00:48:43,966
now we're in the internet age, which is the most complicated, congested thing.

769
00:48:45,299 --> 00:48:48,850
You know, it's one of these things I was telling this to somebody, if you

770
00:48:48,850 --> 00:48:51,932
knew all the headwinds before you got into a restaurant, if you knew all the

771
00:48:51,964 --> 00:48:55,143
headwinds exactly doing what I have to do today, you'd say, I don't know why

772
00:48:55,143 --> 00:48:57,965
bother with that. It's too much work. You know, it's too complicated. Yeah.

773
00:48:59,020 --> 00:49:02,460
Along this story of my dad who came to America in 1949

774
00:49:02,460 --> 00:49:06,220
and got his master's at SC, and there's all these fun anecdotal things. He

775
00:49:06,220 --> 00:49:10,040
knew all the greats. Robert Mondavi used to come down here

776
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,800
and preach, talk, preach, talk his L'Esprit

777
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,180
de Vin group. And he knew

778
00:49:17,180 --> 00:49:20,820
Bowser, the wine critic for the LA Times. He knew Warren

779
00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:24,660
Winiarski, stayed at my home. That's a nice name. I just

780
00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:26,820
learned that the other day. I'm like, what do you mean he stayed at my

781
00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:30,326
home? I was a teenager. I go, this guy was at my house? Yeah. Jim

782
00:49:30,406 --> 00:49:32,797
Barrett was our neighbor. He used to come in the store all the time. In

783
00:49:32,797 --> 00:49:36,023
fact, he came to my father and said, you know, please take on our brand

784
00:49:36,023 --> 00:49:39,730
in 1971 or '72 after he bought the winery, because I

785
00:49:39,730 --> 00:49:42,410
have too many people asking us for donations. I just want to point them to

786
00:49:42,410 --> 00:49:46,069
your store. And so I asked Mike to

787
00:49:47,096 --> 00:49:50,867
document the story about what happened. And I

788
00:49:50,867 --> 00:49:54,366
have this dossier, which I want to give you to read and say, all

789
00:49:54,462 --> 00:49:58,216
right, how can I Now parallel this industry, which

790
00:49:58,312 --> 00:50:01,840
is, I mean, now wineries without a club

791
00:50:02,802 --> 00:50:06,346
can't survive. I mean, it's almost impossible to make wine money in the wine

792
00:50:06,346 --> 00:50:10,195
business anyway. But if you don't have a direct-to-consumer club where you're getting

793
00:50:10,195 --> 00:50:13,723
full retail from, you know, from the cost of goods sold, you know, you

794
00:50:13,723 --> 00:50:17,396
almost can't make it. Right. And my dad invented this idea. So I

795
00:50:17,396 --> 00:50:21,229
think it's a cool story. I think there's a, there's a, anecdotally, it's amazing

796
00:50:21,325 --> 00:50:24,310
what goes on. Oeufs glacés

797
00:50:24,310 --> 00:50:27,930
in, in, in Schönberg, and then, you know, people

798
00:50:27,930 --> 00:50:31,310
thinking the eggs were undercooked and all kinds of, all kinds of interesting

799
00:50:31,310 --> 00:50:33,910
stuff. So I want you to read it. Okay,

800
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:37,570
absolutely. And I'll tell you what my thoughts are and how

801
00:50:37,570 --> 00:50:41,330
we— I think I want to go about it, because I think I want

802
00:50:41,330 --> 00:50:44,990
to get— he's still, still alive. He's 91, 90s.

803
00:50:44,990 --> 00:50:48,790
He tells you the stories, he's totally coherent and everything. So, but as

804
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:51,590
far as Patrick Hughes is concerned, it's been such a pleasure having you here, and

805
00:50:51,590 --> 00:50:55,020
there's so much we get to continue to talk about it. I'm sure we'll do

806
00:50:55,020 --> 00:50:58,801
it again. Well, Paul, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for

807
00:50:59,090 --> 00:51:02,791
showing interest in all of my books, but

808
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:07,518
particularly this last one on what it takes

809
00:51:07,518 --> 00:51:11,187
to become a restaurateur today. So, it's— the first was The

810
00:51:11,187 --> 00:51:14,344
Last Days of Haute Cuisine. It was published like 2001,

811
00:51:14,536 --> 00:51:17,741
really. And I got a brand new copy. Oh, did you? Yeah, it was the

812
00:51:17,741 --> 00:51:21,219
first copy. And the current book is called Becoming a Restaurateur: By

813
00:51:21,348 --> 00:51:23,796
Patrick Hughan. It's under the Masters at Work

814
00:51:24,972 --> 00:51:28,708
group. And if you have any inclination or idea

815
00:51:28,773 --> 00:51:32,557
or thought process that you're gonna open a sports bar with chicken wings, doesn't matter,

816
00:51:32,783 --> 00:51:36,583
or a Michelin-star restaurant, it's a must-read. So thanks

817
00:51:36,583 --> 00:51:38,967
very much, Patrick. Good to see you again. My pleasure, Paul. Appreciate it.