Why Biodynamic Wines Might Actually Taste Better: Smith Haut Lafitte’s Radical Approach; Ludovic Fradin

0:00 When you drink a bottle of Smithite, first of all, you drink a wine who has its story. We have the sense of the place. You drink a wine with the law of the three F. Freshness, finesse, food bearing. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kay. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California, gonna have a conversation with Ludovic Frondon from Smith aux Lafitte in Bordeaux. An incredible winery. Been there. I don't know if you know that or not. Did I say that right? Yeah, Ludovic Von find out. It's correct. Okay. He is the right hand man to Florence Catiard, who you may have remembered was on the show recently at the winery in Napa Valley. Incredible wines. And we're going to taste some today, I guess. Yeah. Thank you for bringing those. You're welcome. Anyway, welcome to the show. Of course. Glad to have you here. Me too. Thank you.

0:55 So what is this? This whole. What are you here for? A week? Two weeks. I'm here for a tour starting today and ending on the 27th of July of June. Sorry, that's still a trip. Yeah. So two weeks. A good two weeks. And clients dinners. What? It's a mix of a lot of things. Clients, dinners, wine talk today. And that's the most important thing. It's the most important to start with a wine talk before to talk about the other one and. Yes, for sure. But the. The purpose is to promote. To introduce Catia properly in California. Visiting as well the winery this weekend and then going to Seattle and then going to Texas as well, before to coming back to France. Texas is, you know, the top. When I was selling a lot of wine, the top five states in America that were wine states. It was California, obviously. Texas.

1:49 Yeah. Florida. Florida. Illinois, Michigan. Yeah, correct. New York as well. Is Cathiard in those places now? Cathiard is in all those place except Illinois. So yes, we are. So I'm starting to visit all the distributors and customers. It's hard work. It's a long work. Distribution in us is a key point. It's a long process with your free tier system as well. But it's a proper way to do it. And you try to touch the final customers in a shop or in a restaurant. So this distribution needs time, is a right distribution for wines. And we have to show and we have to introduce the wine because every time that people taste our wine, they are amazed and they have what we call the wow. The wow factor. The wow effect.

2:50 Yes. So what do you think Ms. Macron is going to do with Trump's threat this morning of this 100% tariff? Did you guys catch that? No. You didn't catch it? No. Yeah, it was on the news this morning. I didn't. So eat. So. All right, we'd hate to have that. That could destroy a lot of stuff. Okay, so let's, let's back up a little bit because there's so much history here and. And you recently had a major loss at the winery. Monsieur Cathard, Florence's husband, it's been a few months that he passed away. How has that affected what's going on at the winery and in Bordeaux in general? Of course it affect all the team personally, because we know Daniel for forever and so he was really passionate, dedicated to the winery. He was not retired, so he was with us every day. He enjoyed to meet people who come at the winery and to shake their hands and so on. So he was deeply involved.

3:53 But Daniel has that skill of passing all his responsibility from a long time. He created six years ago now Conseil de Surveillance, which is a surveill of Council of Surveill. And when he told me I'm creating the Conseil of Survey, I'm the president of Conseil of Survey, I said, may, what would you do, Daniel? And he told me, I will give advice and I will survey. Well, it's good work if you can get it. And Daniel always said, let it be, let it go. And I remember to hear me as well, the show must go on. And he did everything, which is extremely great for Missouri and everything was in the proper hands from a long time. I mean, for example, Fabian Tegen, which is our commercial technical directors winemaker, is at the winery and the family for we celebrate his 30th vintage this year.

5:01 Wow. So the vineyard manager is. Is with us for 15 years. The cellar master for over 14 years. Me as well, for 14 years. So the team around Florence, of course is there and in the same times, of course. The two daughters of Florence and Daniel are deeply involved in the winery. Mathilde and Alice, we were two youth band, Bertrand and Jerome. So Matilde is a caudalie branch cosmetic side and Alice is the with Jerome. Her husband is a hotel. Well, I don't know. Florence, when she was on the show is not. She wasn't complaining, but she was sort of suggesting that maybe the daughter of the son in law that's involved with the cosmetic line. Yeah. Is doing much better than the winery. So she was saying, I got in the wrong business. But I'm just teasing. She was. It's a. It's a different business.

6:02 You see it everywhere. Yeah, yeah. They have a development which is incredible. But the product. Their products are great. And what is very important in this family is that the free business develop, develop in the same times, on the same way. The hotel is a palace hotel is a two star Michelin. They open Loire Valley in 2020. They open as well. Source de Voujo in Burgundy last February. And next year it should be the Alsace one. So that's a great development in the same time. And of course, Kodali is starting Kodali starting in 1995. And today they're sure that cosmetic is booming at Kodali. Is incredible development all around the world. And so that's great because of course, all the image advertising with vines that they are using are coming from Smith.

6:58 Okay, what do you think of my eyes? I put some on here. Can you tell you did it okay? Yeah. You had a good time. You have good protection. That's great. My wife, when we went to Paris, she's like, we have to get this, you know. And then we find out it's everywhere. Anyway, their formula are great. They're coming from the seed and the. And about the vines. So in fact, it's. He working well. The products are very good. Let's go back to that for a second. Because, yeah, the grape seeds and the extraction and. And was founded on this. But. And you said they're sort of parallel with the winery, that this business has grew when. When the cathiars. Let's go back to that day. They were both skiers. Right. They're both us. I mean, the French. French national skiers.

7:41 I don't know if Florence was on the Olympic team, but Florence was on the Group B National. Right. And Daniel was on the Group A with Jean Claude Keeley. The three gold medal winners. Yeah. So it was Don Hill Racer and they opened a sporting goods store, I think. Right. And then it became a very big chain. Do you. Do you know what their thought process was when they got out of retail, out of sporting good retail and wanted to be in the wine business? What was that? What were they thinking? First of all, I think Daniel and Florence was in this booming time in the 70s, in the 80s in France, where all the economy was very performing, and the supermarket side as well. And after many years in that type of distribution, I think that Daniel wanted to do something else. He told me that the supermarket with the name Gentile faced a situation where big, big boys are coming, like Carrefour and Walmart and so on. And he needs to develop more. And it was a time where you have to sell the industry to an investor which came bigger, which become casino.

8:57 And I think that he saved all his employees. He has a very nice improvement and development in this industry. And there is a time where he has to leave. And he left and he wanted to do something because he was young. He has something like 54, 53. And he thought that he was too young. But he remembered that in this supermarket and at the starting point, when he was playing in the cellar of his grandfather, he was playing above the VAT of wines. And so he always wanted to enjoy wines. And he told me that at the first time he wanted to see Champagne, but the price of Champagne house was too high. He went to Burgundy, but he told me I did not like the weather in winter. And so he arrived with Florence at Miss O Lafitte. And he discovered a kind of Eden, but in a pity condition. And I think he saw in that winery his future life.

10:02 But something that he did not forecast at the time. It was that he will spend so many effort and money behind that winery. No one told him that. He didn't believe. He didn't believe that. He told me, when I bought it, I thought it was perfect because the harvest is in September, October, and then we make the wine. And then in wintertime, we sell the wine on Premier in early spring, roughly. So it gives me time to make ski. Yeah, part of the problem. No. Yeah. But in fact, not he has to sell his wine. And so January, February was turning around all around the world to develop sales to promote his wine, make, tasting and so on. The general condition of the winery when you bought it was good, bad medium. At the beginning, the condition of the winery was not in a very good, healthy position. Yeah, it was a different strategy from the overrunners about much more volume. And so the idea of Daniel was to turn the winery into organic process. But at that time was not named organic. But he had that vision to do something very different in terms of quality, in terms of blend, in terms of something much greater than what it was. He did that, I think, and realize how difficult would be and how investment. How would be the investment to achieve it. And after 30 years,

11:36 Smithite is one of the raising stars in Bordeaux. But thanks to Florence, Daniel and all the team, because all the efforts, all the strength, the energy, the investment they made to raise that wonderful terroir. It takes time. So it's in this pace south side of Bordeaux, right across the street from Chateau Bailly. Old friend Veronique Sanders Van Beek and her husband, we were there. Now we didn't get to go across the street though. I had an intern here and she is now graduating from Cornell University in enology. And she went across the street and she got a chance to take a picture with Danielle and they were so thrilled that they had the opportunity. When you said that, he liked to greet people. And I think this is where this industry is at right now, correctly, like relationship. You got to get out there. Yeah. No, relationship welcoming is a part of the industry, which is very important.

12:38 First of all, that area where we are changed his name in 1987. So move from grave to Pasaclonion is still classified from the grave. And so it's one of the. Nobody knows that, but it's one of the oldest area of making wine after Saint Emilion in Bordeaux Aubrion. Our first growth are dated since 900 something Smith Lafitte 1365. So that area is recognized with this hill. That's why we have that name, Lafitte. We have several people who have that name in Bozeman. It's got one tea or two T's. We have two T. Yeah, the Lafitte 2T. Maybe we have several heels. So that's why we have two tables. That's an interesting.

13:19 You've come to the US in a very interesting time in the life cycle of wine, particularly in the US where there's consolidation of distributors and you're stuck with the big boys. And here you are with Duclos, which is the right place to be in Bordeaux. The idea of hospitality is changing. You have a hotel there, you have a restaurant there. Spa. I want to know where the podcast host room is in the hotel. You'll show me that in the picture later. But the idea of hospitality in Bordeaux is relatively new. And then we saw what they did at Chateau Bailly with their new tasting room and the new barrel room. It seems to me that's just what we need to be doing is one bottle, one taste at a time. Well, I think that Daniel at that time when he decided to open a hotel with Florence, of course in the Smithite, you have to remember the situation was totally different. I'm talking about 1999. And Daniel told me, if we have to open the door of the chateau to make the tour, the visit to explain what we are doing, people who are coming at the winery need to be welcomed properly and welcome them properly for me was to open and hotel and a restaurant. But at that time he's starting with a good hotel, but not, not like it is today. So everything has grow and today reach what it is.

14:48 And it makes sense today it makes sense to welcome people at the winery. But 30 years ago everything was closed. I wonder, I wonder how that happened. And I suppose consumerism. You know, my business changed dramatically during COVID and then post Covid it was really, really plummeting and that. And this was that $20 price range. But I. I wonder if this change is always is just generational. Look, wine is over 6,000 years old. We know that in Bordeaux being the quintessential wine district of the world. I believe every generation comes around to this kind of wine, this glass of wine that makes you think a little bit when you taste it. And I think just the messaging now is how we get the message is different. I think that everything's starting from the customers and from the market. And I think that the people drinking wines they are looking for a sense, they are looking for a history, a story behind the winery. Because all the winery has a wonderful story. And it's not drinking like a big brands for drinking wines. It's drinking something differently. And to know better what you are drinking, what you are eating.

16:13 I'm not a specialist in meat, I'm not a butcher. Yeah. But I know how to recognize a good piece of meat. That's right. All right, that's a good point. And I think when I know my butcher and when I know where I come from that meat, I have special link with my butcher and where his supply, where his source is meat. And I think that today in this world where you find a lot of food industry coming from everywhere, where you don't have any traceability. And when you reach an education, when you want to find something different, when you want to consume differently with more respect. But in fact you are sorry for that. You are, you are engaged in your own life, your own consumption. You want to be a part of it. And so I think people are looking for something different in terms of style, in terms of sense. You can explain what they are drinking.

17:09 And on top of that we had organic process. Biodynamic process means there is no fertilizer, no herbicide, no pesticide. In our full biodynamic we are certified. We are the only classified growth on this area to be fully certified. I didn't know that. Yeah, we know it's just sustainable and organic, but. Yeah, we are. But the vision of organic to get it, it's one point, but to hold it is another point. Now, everything that the winery did under the impulse of Florence and Daniel was to be ready to take it and to hold it. Because you don't change a vineyard like that in two years. No, it takes 20 years going from the rootstock production, going through the winemaking, the barrel making. Sorry, going through all the new plantation that we did, with different density of plantation, different coming from our own rootstock, changing a chemical vineyard into organic. Take times growing our own plants as well, nettle, ferns, chamomile and so on. And that give another definition in wines and another precision, freshness in style as well. More purity, actually.

18:28 So let's go for the listeners, let's go on a technical basis, in order to convert from a farm that was using chemicals, herbicides, insecticides, a minimum of three years to get just start the certification. But that doesn't include how we learn about the grape that's now being grown in this new vineyard. If you change, if you get your certification, if you are not ready to hold it, you can have a wonderful weather without any too much disease. It will happen in 2019. And you can face to a year like 2018 or 2024, for example, where you have a lot of humidity and a lot of fungus, and if your vine are not adapted to that by the result, you lost your production. That's a big problem. It's a big problem.

19:23 So the question to be organic or not is a good question, but it's to hold it when you're ready to do it. And as soon as you move to organic, you see your yield going down by at least 30% and sometimes 50. You can't live with that. Yeah. You can't just automatically accept that, but you have to eventually, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is something that you have to put on the table. Yes, definitely. And then you do you learn to bring that yield back up, or you live with it because it's organic, biodynamic, you're just going to have those yields from that point, actually, never. It never went back. So the yield roughly as an average, is at about to 30 hectolitres per hectare for the red and 25 as an average 25 for the white. This year, because we are in primer now, we release our wines. 25 is the lowest, is the lowest yield. We never produce in white. 18 hectolitres.

20:27 Wow. And in red is just a little bit under what we used to do. So it's 28 instead of 30, 32. So. So that's. That's. That's another complication. I have a lot of people that sit in that chair that do a lot of crazy things. Pouches, cans. One woman was in, and she's got a company, and she only bottles 375s. And that was some revolutionary thing. Okay. And then in almost all cases, I don't think I put it right. I'm sure packaging and alcohol content are all important, sort of superficial parts of our industry. We know that already. And if you want to put it in a pouch, I don't see what joy somebody gets out of drinking a wine in a pouch. But let's say it happened. But it's not the core of what wine is. You know, wine is a story. It's a conduit to the soul. Look, for example, that label does have a little bit of evolution. Yes. So that's the 20, 23.

21:33 So we. It was a special year at Smithite because we welcomed King Charles. So we put a little stamp on it. I think I remember that King Charles was at the winery. He was 22nd, September 22nd, 23. Wow. I remember that day all my life. Was he a skier too? Is that why he came to see? No, he came. He came because his primary purpose for a European trip was CO2. And since we are certified organic and we are an expert in the CO2 release as well, because we catch the CO2 that we produce and we transform it into baking soda. So we are totally neutral in terms of CO2 release. It was a primary tour as well. I wanted to see as well, the cooperage. So that's why we do that little stamp. But when you see a bottle of Smithelafit, first of all, you see the coat arms. These court arms does exist since 1365. Wow. So that's an advertising. It's a little bit of history. It's a long advertising. Who means that the colors, the blue colors and the lily flowers here at that time was the flowers of the king and the color of the king. George Smith, which is a Scottish who bought Smithite, he acquires misaelafit in 1850, had this quarter of moon in Bordeaux. We have a river which is named Garonne, and that Garon does a kind of quarter of moon inside Bordeaux city. And he

23:06 was a merchant user. He has a free vessel. And in fact, he used the Garon was his highway, actually direct straight to London. He did trade between England and France. He bought wines and he had it. And he had this sign which is named Belle, who means that he has three kids. So you have signification in the courthouse. So, in fact, when you drink a bottle of smithite, first of all, you drink a wine who have his story. You drink a wines which is. We have the sense of the place. You drink a wine with the law of the 3F. I'm sure you never heard about the law of the three F. The laws of the three Fs. No, no.

23:51 Freshness, finesse, food bearing. Oh, that's the law we want to reach first time. Of course, I invented. I'll have to quote you on that. I'll make sure you get credit for that. Well, I think it's interesting because being at Wine Paris and talking to the Bordelaise and talking to the Tuscans and everybody sort of suffering through this period of. Of social pressure. There's a low elk movement. We know that. You know, pre prohibition type stuff. There's packaging issues. There's low elk stuff, there's non alk.

24:32 I mean, seriously, have you ever tasted these things? Why would you drink them not. It's not wine, it's fruit juice. Oh, yeah. But, you know, and I had the pleasure once a woman brought in a Pinot Noir. She. It was from California, Monterey, beautiful district, Filipino. And I got to taste the regular still wine. And it's non al counterpart from the same grapes. And it was undrinkable. And I don't understand the value. But we won't get into that right now. It's not important what. What I want to get to is how we. How are we getting the. Do we have to. Did we go backwards a little bit in. In the marketing of wine because of a lot of people say, well, we got snooty about it, we got intimidated about it. We, you know, we. We rested on our laurels and we. We have to drink the wine or just the natural cycle of. Of generations learning a little bit later, later, I think about what it is. I think we are in the inter. Intergeneration.

25:28 Yes. Gap, right. Where we have customers who love Bordeaux, collect Bordeaux. I thank them for that from a long time. And maybe their kids now wishing maybe 30 years, 35 years are not yet really are still learning. And they are not understanding that complication of wine world from every region, different grapes, different profile of wines. And so in. In France, you have all that different appellation per region who make maybe more complicated. I remember when I started, when I started in US it was in 90 first trip I did was in 1997 or something like that. And there is a booming Brand which was Australian wine, Yellow Tail. Yeah, you remember that? Oh yeah. A massive, huge still floor stacked everywhere. Yeah, yeah.

26:25 8.99. And people in fact was attracted by the price and was something extremely easy, a kangaroo, you know. This come from Australia. It's a wine from Australia basically. And Australia was hot then. It's a salt. Yeah. In France you have some easy brands like that. I'm thinking about La J Ferme for example, which is easy going wines. It's been around for a long time. It's been around for a long time as well. I think they did a good sales. You have Gypet Chaunet as well, which is a big brand as well. Maybe the first brands in France, I think. But when you're going to finest wines, You need to get a skill of that place. You need to understand what you are drinking, what you are tasting. And it's more a taste than a drink.

27:17 And in fact it's historic histoire, history behind the wines, winemaking process as well. And I mean you have something very special. So in fact you need maybe to adapt to educate your palates with some other wines before and when you reach that category of wines, you understand what quality you have in your mouth. You know, it's an interesting thought because that picture there in 1975, white zinfandel from Sutter Home, a mistake, an accident, you know, just he was actually trying to make a Provence style when fermentation stopped and he ends up with this sweet wine. It became a big thing. And so I think that tells us that yes, they'll always be the wines that bring people to the table the first time. White Zinfandel, Lambrusco, you know, Matuse, all these different brands from way back. And I was talking to a master of wine who studies the palate and some other technical parts of wine tasting. And he said they've learned now and they've proven that, that the palate gets tired of sugar, the sugar. And that's when the consumer will realize when they get that final taste. And I think this has come back down to what you were doing here in the US this week, which is getting those tastes into their mouths so they understand there's something unique and better on the other side of this. Right. In the meantime, we need

28:49 those things. We need him to come to the table. And I was in Beverly Hills a few, few weeks ago at a port tasting and the psalm in this restaurant, very famous place. I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus, but he was the exact type of Person that intimidates and wants you to know, as the consumer, how much he knows. And we don't need that. On the other hand, in Palermo, we went to a seaside restaurant, and I think it was. It wasn't Serbian. I think it was Slovenian, the Psalm. And we ordered a nice Super Tuscan, I think it was.

29:29 And the way he presented the wine and the way he took so much passion into making sure that the presentation was right. It inspired you. I even gave him a €60 tip on the side because it was so fascinating to watch. And I go, we need more of you. I told him, I said, we need more of you in this industry. Sure. Because we want people to understand the whole experience of this. We just got back from Ireland, and my friend was drinking all the Guinness he could drink there. Yeah. And we got home, he started drinking this again. He goes, it doesn't taste the same. Maybe it was for sure. In Irish. Yeah. In Dubin, I mean, maybe, maybe. But so is, for instance, the same friend of mine, we're doing a wedding, and I only want to pour board Bordeaux. My nephew's wedding, I'm only pouring Bordeaux. And so I was tasting the second labels of La Blanc, a couple other ones. And so I was able to get them to know that there's a difference.

30:40 Did you taste the difference? Like, don't explain it to me. You have to. You don't have to give me words, but just say, are they different? Yeah. And that's a start. You can. Yeah, because. Right. Which one do you like best? Yeah, it's a start. Right? Yeah. And that feels so elementary. Right. Like, maybe we haven't come that far in the 45 years I've been doing this. We're still doing the same thing. Good. So. So they feel it. They. They feel the difference. Yep. They enjoy it. On your. On your. Yeah, yeah, they enjoyed it. And they picked one. They pick one. And that's why. Yeah. I think the. The most important things is to recognize the brands that you like. I think that the label of Smithite is a.

31:24 Is something that you can catch easily by that court arms. The name, the yellow color as well on the label. So you can see from. From a long distance the. The. The label and you. You. It's a gauge as well, of quality, of guarantee of purity of the. Of the wines in the place. You know, it's funny you said that, because at a friend's house, he has a beautiful wall and it's got the. The horizontal bottles. And he goes, we'll pick one. I Went right to that. There was the first thing I noticed, like the recognized label. I go recognize this. He didn't know what he had, you know. Yeah, sure. So we opened it.

32:05 It was really good. We have that chance as well at the name of Smith in us. Yes, Mr. Smith. Yes. Yeah, yeah. There's another brand you have too, though. No, the second. So it's something that the American can pronounce easily, the name of Smith. So maybe you can help a little bit on the pronunciation as well, because sometimes the French are not so easy to speak. And so for American it might be complicated as well. You know, I try to explain to people that this is a very slow industry, just rooted, no pun intended, in the idea that you only get one chance a year.

32:46 Correct. But why, why is low? Because the vine is slow. Yeah, right. When you plant vines before to reach that quality, at least 20, 22 years. So before that is a young vines and then the roots need to go down to get concentration, to get the quality of the earth before to send the energy up to the grapes and to the seed. So in fact, that's why it takes time. The cycle is at least 20 years. So you cannot remove the things as quick than soda, for example. Do you think that's the premise or the reason? And I don't agree with this necessarily, but it's certainly what people talk about that, you know, we're afraid to give up the old world, we're afraid to give up the old marketing, we're afraid to give it all up. And I can say in California, with the way business is gone, there's a lot of small importers are done and now we're at Southern. When the book is this thick and yet. And you're going to get lost in that book if you're in that book. Right. It's impossible. But if you know what you are looking for France, you're looking for Bordeaux. Yeah.

33:55 Right, left bank. Right bank. Okay, Left bank for hers. Gra. And then you can see maybe our name. Yes. And then amongst others. Yeah. And that's true. That's. It's a bit complicated because the. The wine world is. Is made with a thousand and thousand of producer. So the cheese, if you want in market share, there is no industry who owns more than 10% of the world market share. Maybe Galo American Winery is the number one with maybe 5 or 6, I don't know exactly, maybe 5 or 6, 7, 8% worldwide market share. Then all the cheese is split by thousands and thousands of producer. So drinking a wine Is first of all, you need to be an expert. But I think that you need to understand what you are drinking, what you are tasting and what you want. And that's why we do the blend as well. We do blend because in fact, we can reach the maximum of quality in every grapes, in every varieties and mixed blend, all of them. In fact, you get much more finesse and much more availability to be taste as well. I think, I think this is one of my. I hang my hat on this all the time, and I think it's an important thing. And for instance, the other night we had dinner, we went to a restaurant, I brought a Grand Cru Burgundy and I brought a third growth classified Bordeaux.

35:20 And my guests didn't know what we were pouring. I didn't want to tell them how much they cost, particularly the Grand Cru Burgundy at this point. But. But they all said, this is excellent. And it made me think that the novice can recognize a, an honest wine properly made, properly reflective of its soil. And it's in and it's terroir, as opposed to a sugared up, doctored up, correct kind of thing. So that's a good thing, right, that this can be sensed. I think every people enjoy wines or people who doesn't know wines and want to start in wines, doesn't have to make too much complication and just try to recognize which country, where it is in the country. If you have the chance to visit, it's even better.

36:15 And then to see if it is Pinot Noir from Burgundy or if it is Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot from the Left bank that you selected. And to try to figure how is the style of the grapes and the right answer always, do I like it or don't I like it? And I think that's the first point. The first point is at that point, I, I will say, and though it's been a long time still, but my friends also rely on me and my family on geography. And my only reason I have geography when I didn't study in school is because when you study wine, you not only study geography, but you study a culture. I mean, it's really, really important to understand the culture that that wine is coming from. And if you can experience the culture, like go to Smith o Lafitte, you know, you understand every time you open that bottle of wine, there's that experience that you had. But, you know, something interesting happened in Napa recently, and that's Chanel came in and bought a winery, a Road to States, a very famous Privately owned winery. Jean Charles Boiset, you know, the famed son of Jean Claude Boisset, buying everything he gets hands on. Okay.

37:24 And then LVMH has all their brands. It seems to me that there's, you know, optimism behind all that. Is that happening on the left bank over in Bordeaux? What are we talking about in our. Well, we have a winery as well in Napa. Florence and Daniel bought it in 2020, just before COVID January. Ouch. January. And. But it's a region where they produce outstanding Cabernet Sauvignon. Yes, it's a region. We are Cabernet Sauvignon oriented as well as Missourafit. It's a region where you have to produce great Cabernet Sauvignon. You need one thing which is extremely important to temper. You need an ocean. We have the Atlantic, California as a Pacific. And that ocean bring freshness, brings humidity as well and gives that ripeness that we enjoy in Campanis Sauvignon. And if you are in the same times in Napa, if you can reach the freshness, if you're going high in altitude, for example, you get a ripeness of fruit, which is amazing. Amazing.

38:41 And this winery in Napa, which is named Cathedral Vineyard in Rutherford, is a historical winery. It was Louis Martini's home, was it not, before it was James and Williams Rainey, but it was the home of Louis Martini. But it was a starting point with James A. Williams Rainey back in 1850. Wow. Two Scottish men who left London, they built London Bridge with their uncle. They were engineer. And I think they left England for the gold rush maybe. And they arrived in California. They did not find gold, but they find a good place to make wines. Yes. And starting wines. So that winery has been dig into the Mayacamas mountain.

39:22 So they took over the stones and built the winery. So it's historical and iconic as well. Monsieur Claude is up there still. Claude? Monsieur Claude? No, he's not. He's not here anymore. Oh, he's not? No, he's not here anymore. Yes. Okay. So he left a year ago. Who's running the show up there? Justine Labey. Amazing girl, winemaker. And so she. I thought that Justine, when she left, she was at Smithulafit and she left. She was in internship at Smithite. And she went just after Covid to Katya Vignan. And I. I thought at the beginning that the seat would be too big for her. I'm really impressed because she need to refurbish all the winery to get all the permits and she's pretty strong and she make our extraordinary wines. We get our first 100 points this year with the 23 Vantage. Are they still taking people around the property in the electric Range Rover as a tour?

40:29 Yes. Yeah. We have the Serie 2 and from the 80s that we refitted with a Tesla engine. Yeah, yeah. Is it test. Is it appointment only to get the Catal? Yeah, it is an appointment. Is a. Actually it's a she winery. We have much more women inside than. Okay, then we'll call it than man. So take appointment. I'll tell you something and I've. I've used this before. I'm going to do it again now. You're jog my memory. And Florence that we were sitting in the main tasting room. I had my cameras on and we were talking and she said something to me that I thought was really fascinating and I forgot the question. But she. Her response was yes, because wine is welcome to civilization. Correct. And I thought, wow, that was very powerful comment about the distinction of a good bottle of wine. And the CAD wines for the listeners are incredibly good. The. You have the founders. We have three categories. We have the Oha, which is on the refer for dust.

41:31 And then on the. On the starting. On the starting here we have Founding Brothers, which is a border blend. And high on the hill, 1000ft, 1300ft, Cathayard Vineyard, which is a pure cab. So the. The purpose here is to. To make a great wine with a nice freshness, to get that skill of ripeness, but in the same time to find out the freshness that really enjoy in the wines. Do you think that for me now, this is my backyard, right. It's harder for me in Napa to define except for the hillsides, except for Atlas Peak, Mayacamas Mountains, the two flanking valley mountains that create a special type of terroir, but for sure valley floor fruit. Now it's either because stylistically the Napa Napoleon. Do we say that? Bordelaise Napoleon, Yeah. Good work. They have landed on this opulent extracted probably no sugar, but just this really fruit forward version of defining Napa. When in reality the Cathiard wines do have this amazing expression of terroir. You tell us that people are fed up with residual sugar.

42:58 And so I think that Napa has to change his style into. And seeking freshness on every single point. Freshness and precision. And so I think that Napa in the 70s, because we tried a lot of wines before to make our wines, has a wonderful wine with a lot of freshness and beautiful skill to be Aged. And the style of Napa went to concentration big hawk a lot of reduction as well. And so in fact that style is gone now. That's right. It's gotten tired. I think so. It's gotten tired and people want to seek something with more freshness, more healthier. You said the three Fs.

43:51 Food pairing is very difficult when you have wines of that opulent for it. It's very hard to do. Usually the first glass you say wow. And the second glass your liver say wow. I'm tired, I can't accept it more. That's right. So. And we make wine not to drink one glass, to drink one bottle. And when you finish your birthday, you say, oh my God, it's very good. I can have another one. I can tell you, since I have in my home for various reasons, I have two son in laws living with us and two daughters and my wife and I. And so it's usually four bottles. And I like to go through the different progressions. And my. I have one son in law who's was raised on the east coast. He's got a very peculiar and specific palette.

44:35 Okay. He will not ever drink one of the big style Napa cabs that are popular. He won't drink them. Okay, I can open. You won't drink them. And I don't blame him. We need things that the cut the yard wines where they're expressing. Yeah. Some kind of freshness, but it's as well. As a wine grower, the question is to extract the sense of the place. Right. Because the wine is a kind of. Is the blood of the earth, those roots who are going down into the earth. That's a good extract. That minerality, sapidity and profile. And in fact, you need to create a style.

45:18 A style coming from the place where you are. I think that's really important. It's very important. And every vantage is different. So one vantage is a kind of wave. And we have to ride it as the best as we can. And that's make that industry, that process of making wine, a heart, a passion. Because every year is totally different and you have to express yourself as the best. So here's a thought that. And I came up with that all by myself. Okay. Which is properly made wine. These two examples here, the Left Bank Bordeaux, the Old Grave region and Mayacamas mountains in Napa River. For Napa. Yeah.

46:08 That there is no such thing as a bad vintage. Because if you make it honest to the vintage, to the weather, to the soil, to the manufacturing and the winemaker does their job to express that. Correct. It will be different from year to year. Yeah. But if it's by the definition of explaining, of interest through the bottle, it can't be bad. Never. It's just different. It is different because the number of stones that you have in your terroir. Yes. Right. It remains the same. That's right. That move. Okay. But the fruits that you're getting, the constant ripeness of the fruits moving up and down with the weather, humidity, freshness, disease, and so on. So, in fact, you have a peak where the fruit is over the minerality, and you need time where both can meet. All right. And you have a year where the fruit is not too high and is coming to the mineral side quicker. So that's the perfect time to open your bottle. Yeah. And you have yours to lay down, and you have yours that you can enjoy faster. I can tell you, in 1989 in Napa was a very rough year. I mean, rough on the edges of the wine. Very tannic year. And 1990 was a very voluptuous year. That was easy. You could introduce them. So a lot of wineries put the 90 on the shelf and left the 89 back. Okay.

47:38 And then the 89 came around. I made really good money on the 89s because they didn't know what to do with them. And they already had the 90 on the shelf, so they couldn't, you know, compete with them for a few years. Yeah, it was great. The question is to forget it. Yes. And then to open it. At one point. Yeah. You said something important, and we're done. We're out of time, actually. Already. It's hard to believe, but I have a question for you from my friend's book here, this doctor, French doctor. But before we get there, you've been there 14 years in the U.S. no, Smith, Olafine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And during those 14 years, you. They've moved from traditional to organic, sustainable, then now biodynamic. What have you seen then from the palatability of the wine? How did it change? Did it become. Would it go from a big, rich wine to a leaner, fresher wine? What. What was the general gist of it? We saw back, first of all, the life in the vineyard, and we saw the life back in the wines. We saw vines becoming more resistant themselves to mildew and some other disease. We saw more precision, more freshness in the wine, maybe less body, but much better precision and definition into the wines. And we saw vines becoming more resistant as well. That's really interesting. They only Became more resistant. So you end up with more complexity, more layers, more

49:09 expression, more sapidity, more saltiness as well. Maybe not as heavy on the palette, you know, maybe the texture is a little lighter. Correct. Tannins with tension, you know, not flappy one. Yeah, right. More tension, more precision, more freshness. You know, it's interesting because when, when biodynamic became a thing here in, in California, they were undrinkable and I didn't understand why. They're using the fact that was Biodyn Biodynamic as an excuse for it to taste like kombucha. Right. It shouldn't because the Burgundians were making it without all the stuff and the Gordon Lanes were making it years before without all the stuff. When this book was written, which I'm gonna ask you a question now. Herbicides, insecticides and fungicides weren't around. Yeah.

50:01 And so why did they, why did it take us? I just find it interesting. We pat ourselves on the back now to do stuff that they're already being done many, many years ago. We screwed it up and now we're, we're slapping ourselves in the back for fixing it. And here you've done it for four. You know, this many years is great because it's maybe. I don't know about the winery you're talking about, but it's as well about the, the variety of rootstock that we are using. It's about the density of production as well. It's about the. Today we use modern technology. We use e robot for example in the vineyards. We use EI in terms of forecast, weather prediction.

50:47 We do a lot of things by hand as well. Handy. So it's a cost but at the end it's, it's more tailor made. Every, every vines are made more managed under a tailor made process. In fact, to help that ripeness with this ultimate goal. Cutting the leaves, you know, or keeping the leaves, depends if you have a hot weather or not. Using white clay as a sunblock protection when it's very warm, scratching the ground to low down desertation. Yeah, really a green harvest when you have to do it. So you can make, you can produce, you can help your vines up to the harvest and you can adjust the yield, concentrate the concentration or not and help to reduce as well the mushroom disease. The milieu by using nettle firms, biodamy on the top. So we use both organic and biodynamy. You have to learn all that.

51:53 Every year is different. You have the impact of the planets, the warm planets, the Cold planets, the moon tied up, tie down, who improve the SAP or decrease the SAP. You don't prune the old vines like you prune the young vines, depending the moon as well. So. Well, there's Steiner's book right there. Rudolph Steiner, you know. Yes. I haven't read it. Steiner. We don't read it, but we love him. But Steiner, we don't. There is a part that we don't follow is the mystical part of Steiner where we. We don't believe on it, but the over influence we believe in on it. Yeah. Well, it was brought to me originally when I got. The best explanation was from Piero Inchenza. And he has a Patagonia Pinot Noir. And he said it this way. He said two things that have reminded me of biodynamic farming. That is, one is if the gravitational pull of the moon can shift 7/10 of the Earth, all the water, imagine what it does in a vineyard in our own bodies. That's very powerful. And the other was, he said the armadillos have come back to the vineyard, which means they're, they're humane again. Right. That they can sustain life like this by themselves without chemicals. All right, I'm going to give you. This is Dr. Murray. He's a French doctor. This is written in 1974. I have both the French version and the English version. This is the English version. And he goes through

53:25 human maladies, human diseases and sicknesses, and prescribes not only a particular wine, but a dosage. Okay, Now I'm going to give you a malady. I'm going to give you three choices, okay? Just so you feel more comfortable. No one ever gets it right. At least 33% of the people get it right. Just the mathematical. Mathematical, yes. So the, the, the malady is nervous depression. Considering today's okay environment with all our phones and stupid stuff. Okay. And you could have a champagne, the Madoc red or a coat de Bone. And what's the. And what is the. What's the reason you chose that answer? When you give me the answer.

54:16 So champagne Madok red, a coat de bone, to help your nervous depression. Correct. Which one? You have to choose one. The Medoc. Why? Because you're from there? Because. No, because tannins maybe are a bit higher. Yeah, well, you're right. It is the Madok. Good. What. How much should you have in a day? One glass. It says one glass per meal. At least two glasses per meal. So it's a bottle a day. Right. Almost a big glass. It's a big glass. Now, here's the reason why. It says the glycerin it contains combines in the intestine with the phosphates of the fermented grape juice to form glycerol phosphates of natural lime.

55:04 There it goes. Which have tonic virtues in which do not interfere with the functional integrity of the nervous system. Now you know. All right. I agree, Dr. Murray. I agree. Yes. Such a pleasure having a show. Nice to welcome. Thank you very much for coming. Yeah, it was really great. I hope you have a successful rest of the trip. And we continue to tell the story, please. About Smith Olafite and Cathayard vineyards in Napa Valley. Yeah. Drinks good wines because life is short. That's right. Cheers. Cheers.