If You Can Sell Coke, Can You Sell Wine? Courtney O'Brien Explains.

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I think the vast majority of wines out there are products, not brands.

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My definition of a brand is something that transcends the actual product.

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Like it's more than just this right here. It's an idea that's

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bigger than any given product. Sit back and grab a

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glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Courtney o' Brien.

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Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a listen to a show. I just put

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out, Marc LaFleur. He is a portfolio

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specialist in wine and we never at the Wine of the Month

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club ever suggested you invest in wine as a financial means. However,

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it has worked lately. So he is a specialist. Listen to him.

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But now while we're here, here to have a conversation with Courtney o' Brien who

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is the founder, president, chief bottle washer of

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Outlier Initiative. Welcome to the show. Thanks.

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I know that's, you know, I'm not trying to be belittle people when I say

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it's the chief bottle washer, but I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur.

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Yep. Do your own thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. Instead of being,

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you know, I've been following what you're doing on LinkedIn and some really

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creative conversations are emerging. And then

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I noticed your background in corporate America,

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which, you know, has it's great value I think when you come

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to the table, particularly in synergistic

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businesses. But tell me about that a little bit. You were with Coca Cola

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and we talked a little history before about my response, my relationship with

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Coca Cola. But was that your first big

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corporate job? I've been in corporate my entire

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adult life. So right out of college I went

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into management consulting. Then I went big management consulting,

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working for huge companies. Then I went back to grad school immediately after

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that. I've been in corporate beverage for 23 years after that.

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So Danone was the first global powerhouse that I

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was with on Evian, reporting up through Paris,

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then Coca Cola, then Ian J. Gallup.

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Let me ask you that, did you? Because here's my, I was a corporate America,

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but when I went to college I'm like, I am not going there. You know,

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my dad was an entrepreneur. He was a businessman from I go, I am not

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going to go to corporate America. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. And what did

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I do? I went right to corporate America. And I'm so happy I did

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because the lessons you learn there are, you know, they're, they're

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refined, they're polished. They come with some bureaucracy, but they certainly come with

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time tested. Yeah. Reality

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is that your experience as well. I did not want to be an

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entrepreneur. I was like the rule, which is so

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weird because it's not my personality. But I wanted to go to the best

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college I could get into. I wanted the best job when I got out to

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teach me everything I didn't know. I really viewed that as a continuation of my

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education. So that's why I went into management consulting. You get to try a little

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bit of everything. After which business school was easy, honestly,

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after I'd plowed through management consulting. But yeah, I remember getting a job

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offer pretty early in my career to be like head of marketing for some

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tiny little company. And I'm like, me, I'm not ready to be head of

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marketing. I want to still be learning from people. That's like half of my

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salary, essentially. I got the rest of my life to

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do things my way and be in charge. And I am

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somebody that gets in charge pretty naturally. But yeah, I

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really viewed it as learning for many, many years. It was a

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really good grace. What was it then that. Well,

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you, you were in beverage with Coca Cola, obviously. And we'll talk about that in

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a second, about sort of that idea of transitioning from

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soda to. To the wine industry. But, you know, what

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was it that attracted you to start in the beverage trade? Because

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it is unique. Yeah, I mean, I. So I

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was supposed to go work for ConAgra, their Southern California Orange county

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operations. I had a job lined up after business school

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at ucla and they reneged. Sorry, I didn't. I forgot

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it was ucla. It was ucla. Right. We have the usa. All right, we'll. We'll.

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We'll continue. Don't worry about it. And they reneged

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on all of our offers. All of the MBAs coming from

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UCLA that year, the week of graduation. So about seven of us lost our

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offers. Wow, that's interesting. And I really wanted to start in

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food and beverage. You know, I was just getting into brand management and

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marketing. It was a career changer. I had an offer to go work

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for a video game company. I also had an offer to go work for Disney,

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where I did my summer internship. And I didn't want to do

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those. I really wanted to start in food and beverage because I was convinced

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that that was the best training for brand management. And I

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wanted, at age very young, 26, 27 when I

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graduated business school, the best foundational training

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because I thought the smartest people had that. So I

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pursued I was in la. I pursued what I could find

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right out of business school in June, which isn't very much,

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with no experience doing that. And I ended up getting a contract role with

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Evian, who had their water operations in

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Pasadena at the time. And so it was not

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supposed to be full time. It was really just contract. They are not in the

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business of training in the US in the water business. They have a tiny team.

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But consequently I got the ability to do absolutely everything.

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I ran a large part of their marketing and my fingers and everything

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that they were doing in the US and it did end up being permanent for

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four years or something like that until I went to Coca Cola.

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Yeah, that's interesting because those are, those are

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big brands and I suppose if you're going to bite off getting

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into the beverage industry, go, I mean, just go right, just go right

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to the top when it comes to the brand. Like, why mess around? There

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weren't as many back then. I mean the soda shelf was Coke and Pepsi

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and a little bit of seven. I mean the beverage world now is so

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much more finally diced than it was

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then. You know, that's kind of interesting. Thought it is

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rather boutique ish. Now and then, however, what's it called, just sold for

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$1 billion. Yeah. And, and you know, I think

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it's not unusual, particularly in the wine business as well. And we'll talk about that

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transition now. But you know, there's. To brand yourself

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in the wine trade and to try and get shelf space and try to get

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a house pour. Yeah. You know, it's a little bit different than

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soda at that point. But yeah, man, what a, what

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an opportunity for you to, to, to learn the fundamentals

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of branding, to be with a brand like Evian. That's why, I mean that was

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the biggest joke, right? Like how better to learn marketing than to go market water.

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Yeah. Who would have thought, I mean, who would

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have thought that water, like my wife won't drink anything but bottled

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water. That's just the way it is. Yeah. And this was the beginning,

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you know, this was back when everyone would say, oh, Evian. You know, if you

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spell that backwards, it's naive, right. So I mean, it was like

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Americans pushing back on there being a bottled

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water industry and why don't we just all drink out of our taps? It was

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good enough for my mom and this was, you know, so this had all happened

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before I went and worked for them where who was like Michael Douglas in

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whatever movie he goes up to the bar, he's like a recovering Alcoholic. And he's

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like, I'll have an Evian, please. And he asks for it by name. And that

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was kind of the original adult alternative beverage of, you know, he's

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not asking for tap water. He's asking for a branded premium thing.

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He can stand around and look good drinking.

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Celebrity endorsement back then. That's pretty amazing, because

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Evian, for a long time, and I don't know that it carries that moniker now,

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and certainly this would apply to the wine trade, you know, was considered

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sort of an aristocratic. Oh, very lux version of. Of water.

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Yep. And then, of course, all the other brands came out, but. Right. For a

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long time. Ooh. Oh, yeah, I drink Evian.

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It was very premium in luxury. Absolutely. So you did that. I know

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that was done before me, but yes, I definitely

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carried that on. And we did, you know, so we were both a

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global CPG brand and a luxury one. So, you know,

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I had the opportunity to go to the spa in France

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and to see the source of the spring and. Which is available for all French

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citizens and giant swimming pool filled with Evian

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and. But yet running two huge national retail

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promotions per year and creating new bottle molds. And

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I did the full brand management. What a great experience

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it was. You know, you said the springs in. In France when we

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were in Napa. Not that long. Well, it wasn't recently, but it was one of

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my earlier trips. And Crystal Geyser had been running these ads on the

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paper, you know, like on the radio, as if you were down the

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street. Our neighborhood water people come visit us. So I did.

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And it said, no visitors on the water.

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Classic. Like, this is great. I drive all the way to Calistoga

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to go see Chris Legend. Yeah, Calistoga. So you

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transition out of corporate, and we're going to talk about sort of the synergy

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between marketing, bubbly, sugar water and

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wine. But you come out of Coca Cola and

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Gallo's looking for someone to take a spot or you created that

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spot. Yeah, I know. I got recruited by a headhunter to go to Gallo after

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I was at Koch. And I ended up working for

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Coke after Coke did the distribution agreement with Evian, moved to

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Atlanta, was able to work on the launch of Coke Zero in the United

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States, which was not supposed to be a success there was not like, oh, my

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God, come work on the next big thing. Not that at all. It was

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me. I would take the Sprite job if I were you, because Coke Zero is

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headed toward disaster and you're just going to end up cleaning up after it for

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two Years. So that was the. That was the water cooler conversation going

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on inside Coca Cola. Like, it was the time they were throwing a bunch of

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spaghetti. There was, like, no innovation then. It was tons of innovation and most of

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it's going to fail, you know, And. And that was the time that there was

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tons of innovation and most of it failed.

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And that one didn't like the reformulation of Coca Cola.

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No, that was before that. No Diet Coke. Plus, if

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anybody remembers that Coke, Black Blak

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Tab, Energy, all that stuff was right around the same time,

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creation of Gold Peak, which is still around service.

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Yeah, that was that time. Early 2000, 2005. So why did you take

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it on? I thought it was interesting. And they brought

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on a guy for the Sprite job. It's not like I had this choice,

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but I did think it was interesting. And I mean, it was. They had

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gotten 99%. The innovation team had created it. I wasn't involved. And then

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when I came over, I was the first brand person. They gave it to me.

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They're like, here you go. Here's the. Here's the product, here's the research,

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here's the plan. Here's the marketing plan. They had done a preliminary marketing plan, and

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I'm like, okay, I get it, I get it. Whoa. I don't get this marketing

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plan at all. This is not hanging together for me at all.

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And so I redid the marketing plan, which

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marketing to me is 360. So it wasn't just

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the promotion plan. It was a lot about the actual product

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and consumer target and everything.

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And that was a big chunk of how I started Coke Zero. That took the

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first couple months, and then crossed my fingers and prayed that it worked.

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And because we were losing distribution, when I came on, they had already gotten it

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in, like, 100% of stores like they do, especially back then.

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And it was starting to fall out. It was getting discontinued because it wasn't

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moving. And so a couple months into that, I came in

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and had to kind of take over that internal narrative. Wow.

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What do you mean you want to expand it? It's not even moving, Courtney. We're

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going to discontinue it. No, no, no. Let me come talk to you. So a

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ton of it was flying around, talking to different bottlers, presenting why they shouldn't disc,

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why it's so great, what we're going to do with it, and then

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recreating the wheel and actually coming up with a plan on the back end, launching

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it. So that was. That was my role for a few years. In building the

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team. That's really interesting because it is like

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a major player now in the world of Coca Cola. And,

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and, but I like this marketing 360 idea and I don't think, I think that's

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missed a lot. And we'll talk about. We're going. I made a note so we

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could bring it to. Forward to what you're doing today. Sure. But you know, I

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think a lot of times even in the sales world, it's it,

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where's the magic hammer, you know, the magic nail I'm going to use and I'm

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going to bust through the seams and it doesn't work that way. Right. You

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know this plan and you have to have it, the functions working. You have to

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be nimble, particularly now in this industry to, to switch that plan. But that's

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an interesting thought and I want to, I want you to carry. That nimble tactics

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solid and enduring underneath skeleton

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who. Can I write that down? Yes,

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I got a recording of this. It's okay. So you, so you get recruited from

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Coca Cola to go into alcohol now? Yeah, we were talking briefly about

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a winery that I knew the Fowls winery in and I

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didn't, I didn't get a chance to look it up, but I will. That was

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a Coca Cola executive built this beautiful winery dug in the

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bedrock. Looks like the Flintstones would live there. And you know,

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it was a Coke executive that thought that, you know, wine, I

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could, I can sell liquid and so I'm going to try and do wine. And

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it was a failure. I don't remember what the brand was. So

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what was it that Coke saw in your,

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the gala saw in your Coke experience that that made them think,

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gee, this, this girl's got it going on. Well, at the time when I was

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recruited at Gallo in 08, they were actively, you know, Stephanie, who's

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CPG marketer by training, also was

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actively trying to recruit more people that

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had CPG consumer focused marketing

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experience but could also

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fit in at a family run nimble company. Not

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Ivory tower syndrome. Gallo and the wine industry

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are very focused on getting out there in the field. I mean that's

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what Ernest Gallo kind of built his empire based on. I,

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he's constantly out there in the field creating incredible in

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store promotions, getting to know the operators, talking to

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consumers and that's absolutely what we were expected to do. So they wanted

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the best of CPG marketers but also able to

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do that. So that's, that's what they saw in my experience. Well,

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that's, you know, the gala is known for, for that.

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Yep. I'm not going to call it guerrilla marketing, but certainly in store.

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I think I told you a story about Mike Houlihan and barefoot that Gallo end

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up buying ultimately. But his lessons to get

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barefoot to be where it was when Gallo bought it was literally

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following Ernest Gallo around. Like he'd see him in a store and I'm like, what

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do you mean you see him in the store? He goes, yeah, he's fronting merchandise

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in a store. And I'm like, wow, that's pretty amazing. Yep, yep.

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That's a good example. Lots of lessons there. But

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so that's, that's, you know, now we're in corporate America, we're in alcohol sales. So

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you start to realize there's regulations, there's a whole different. Yeah, I mean, three

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quarters of what I knew how to do, I couldn't do in alcohol. Yeah.

248
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Because it's illegal.

249
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A lot of our toolbox does not apply. Well, let me, let me ask you

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this question because, you know, I went into when, when Cali Red

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from Snoop Dogg came out, you know, and all of a sudden

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I'm walking down the aisle at the market and I'm, it's eye height right in

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the middle at 9.99, 11.99. I thought I, you know, that doesn't just happen.

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But I thought that was illegal in the wine business as well, was to, to

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get shelf space like that through coercion.

256
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Yeah. I can't speak to how they got that shelf space. I mean, it's illegal

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to buy it and yeah, if you

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can show it just forces you to get more creative. And

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I'm sure Coke is doing this nowadays too, as they get their

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shelf space impinged on by these upstarts.

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What is the velocity per square foot and what is the margin

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per square foot that you're going to see with the extended margin given the

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velocity of my products? So you make a business case

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out of it instead of paying for it. You know, that must have been an

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interesting shock for you because the margins

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obviously are radically different between

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a water based beverage and wine. Well, you know, it's funny, I think I might

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have told you this last time we talked. I'm not sure. But at Coke back

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in the day, anyway, I can't speak to now brand people did not manage

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financials. We only managed

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top line. We only demand. We did not because the bottler

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situation. So we did not get into. How much extended

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revenue are you making? It was only sell me more cases. Just

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focus on driving cases, we'll manage about the costs.

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All that it was. Was that different at Gallo? Very much. That's one of the

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reasons I went. I wanted P and L ownership.

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Says no one ever. So you decided that's what you want. Says no one ever.

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I mean, I mean I'm just say that tongue in cheek. But look, you were

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seeking this challenge. Manage my entire brand.

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I wanted to be able to make trade offs and because

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again, I think of things360 and I very much,

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you know, once you are very clearly aligned on who is

283
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your target, what you are selling them, what is

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your unique point of difference, how much is the right place to

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charge for that consumer for that product with the.

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Not just to cover your own costs, but what is the ideal

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price point given what their other trade offs are, what their other options are, what

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you're trying to convey about yourself, you know, if Avion had just looked at

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their costs or at tap water, you know, they wouldn't have priced themselves where they

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did, you know, 9.99 for a bottle of water in your hotel room back 20

291
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years ago. So I'm talking about that work and then

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take the rest of it out. I want the ability to make the bottle

293
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shorter or more elegant if I deem that that's the right thing to do to

294
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tell my story. And I'll take it out of somewhere else in

295
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my, in either my brand's P and L or my portfolio, if I've got

296
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the whole portfolio piano to play with. So yes, I wanted the

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ability to leverage it all. That's kind of the same thought I give

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people when I was, when I was doing weddings here at the Wine of the

299
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Month Club would be take a couple of bucks from the band and put it

300
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back into the wine. Exactly. I don't want to go to a wedding. The wine

301
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sucks. It's part of the experience. You know, you should be very clear what you

302
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stand for and what you don't. So for example, I just saw There's.

303
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We have two Starbucks in my town of 20,000 people.

304
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Cowboy Town, not exactly a white collar

305
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town at all. And only one of them can you

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sit down. The other one has no tables and chairs

307
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and they just erected a third one on the way out of town. Small

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town like that. And it's built with its back to

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the road. We're like, what is, what is that going to be? I can't figure

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out what that's going to be. And finally they put up a Starbucks sign and

311
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we're like, whoa, that would have been my last guess.

312
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It's like the dumpster is facing the road. Like the back of the restaurant is

313
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facing the road. And so everyone forgets this exists. And so we just

314
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discovered it the other day. You can't even walk into this

315
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Starbucks. It's only a to go Starbucks. Really.

316
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So what does Starbucks stand for, really? Because I always thought it stood for

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that third place. You know, the ability to go in, plug your computer

318
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in. They've gone product.

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They've gone product only. They've taken the outlets out of their stores. Half of

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them. You can't even sit down, let alone walk in this. Like,

321
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are you selling your coffee, which anyone can copy, or are you selling these?

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So that's kind of what I'm talking about. About take out what you

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can about stealing money from the band, but do not

324
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take out what you stand for. And that's what you need to be clear on.

325
00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:09,050
That's an interesting thought because

326
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you went from Gala, which. Which I think. I think we're

327
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saying in probably great advice for burgeoning

328
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marketeers in the wine trade, or even a winery owner

329
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proprietor who's trying to figure some of this out. And, you know,

330
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I'm not sure there. There's answers to all the questions, but

331
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they don't probably usually start out with an objective

332
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and define who they are and where they're going. And I'm work

333
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as I'm working on this podcast because I love to

334
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do it and I do it for a reason, because I want to tell the

335
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stories and I want people to understand wine in a different viewpoint.

336
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But I do have an objective with it. Yeah. And

337
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so I've sat down recently and decided, okay, I gotta get rid of

338
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all the fluff and laser on what I've got

339
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to do to get the objective done. But. So you leave corporate America with

340
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Gala, which has got tons of resources. You've got your own P and L. That's

341
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,480
great. So you understand that part better in the wine trade, and you now land

342
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on your feet as an entrepreneur and as a consultant trying to do this

343
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in a very. I mean, you must run into

344
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amazingly diverse sets of individuals who are in

345
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the wine trade trying to make a name for themselves.

346
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Yeah, it probably couldn't be worse. You know, time to do that. And

347
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I've got stories to tell you on some people I've talked to recently. But

348
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what is the number one thing that you look at when you find

349
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either they come to you. Let's go this way. They come to you with all

350
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,120
kinds of Experience. I've been in business for 20 years. I've got this brand. It's

351
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,640
in so many locations. I only have so many placements and

352
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,500
I need help because it's changed. Yeah. Or they're coming

353
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to you saying, I'm just getting started, you know, help me get started. Which is

354
00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:56,780
it? Both. I work with both. Yeah. And I mean, honestly, that's what my

355
00:21:56,780 --> 00:22:00,420
career has taught me. So I led innovation for

356
00:22:00,420 --> 00:22:03,940
wine $10 and up at Gallo and invented Blue sky

357
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things. So I'm very versed at that. And

358
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at other points, at Gallo, I led huge portfolios of

359
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brands, some of which were not doing very well. You know, whether they were acquisitions

360
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,680
that had been neglected and I needed to turn them around rapidly,

361
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,400
substantially. I'm used to doing both. And

362
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,200
honestly, the playbook is not that much different. So many times.

363
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,360
It's not just a band aid that these brands need.

364
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,200
I don't think band aids could possibly fix

365
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,640
or unless it's a serious wound, that in

366
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,320
this industry right now, It's a Global 360, like you're

367
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,620
saying, position in the wine trade that you've got to fix out where you belong.

368
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:50,620
Because you use the word innovation and it's driving me crazy. You probably see it

369
00:22:50,620 --> 00:22:54,340
all the time on LinkedIn and whatever else you post, and I'm not sure what

370
00:22:54,340 --> 00:22:57,540
it means exactly, except certainly in the Coke

371
00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:01,420
environment where you can create brands and test and you've got this

372
00:23:01,420 --> 00:23:05,180
whatever, Coke, black, and all these other things that you tested and they worked. What

373
00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:08,980
does it mean to you then, when we talk about innovation in the wine trade?

374
00:23:08,980 --> 00:23:12,700
Let's say I'm an established, you know, I've got my $150

375
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,420
Napa cab and I've got a Merlot and I've got maybe a Pinot and.

376
00:23:16,730 --> 00:23:20,330
And I'm. I throw my arms up. My DTC

377
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:23,930
is good, but it's not enough. And I need

378
00:23:24,010 --> 00:23:27,810
help. What, when you use the word innovation, what does that mean

379
00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:30,730
to you at this point? It would depend on what you want to be when

380
00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:34,170
you grow up. I mean, it would really depend on your strategy. What you stand

381
00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:37,970
for is not all $150 brands are the same. You've got like Ashes

382
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:41,490
and Diamonds, which is super modern, sells out of their

383
00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:45,060
D2C and on premise only

384
00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:48,860
stuff with launch parties before it even hits the market. And

385
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:52,420
then you've got old school, you know, like a mile away.

386
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:56,420
It really depends on what your vision is.

387
00:23:57,620 --> 00:24:01,220
What I do is I, I get an understanding of

388
00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:04,580
who this brand is, who the

389
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:09,020
People are behind it. The publicly facing people or the founder.

390
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:12,830
If that's the case, what is kind of non negotiable. What's really.

391
00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:16,510
It's like a person like get to know this person, then

392
00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:20,470
get to know what they want to do and figure out a way to make

393
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:24,190
that happen. I can tell you what to do, I guess, but

394
00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:27,990
I can't tell you without any kind of objection. I'm

395
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:31,790
looking to achieve X. Are you looking to double? Are you looking to be

396
00:24:31,790 --> 00:24:35,630
back at the case volume in restaurants that you were in 2020? Are you looking

397
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:39,200
to resonate more with Gen Z? Are you like what are you

398
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,840
exactly looking to do? You got to get a little deeper than my

399
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,560
sales suck. Fix it. Do they

400
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,280
know? Do they, do they know? At this point I

401
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,040
would guess in my experience that they probably don't even know. Most of them are

402
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,760
farmers. Yeah, I mean the ones that come to me

403
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,920
generally, no, either

404
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,480
something I say resonates with them and they will

405
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,880
repeat that back at me

406
00:25:08,290 --> 00:25:11,890
or they will, it's symptoms that they

407
00:25:11,890 --> 00:25:15,490
know. They don't know the deep down cause of it, but they're

408
00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:19,090
like my customer. Acquisition cost for D2C

409
00:25:19,090 --> 00:25:22,450
has doubled. Well, who's your consumer?

410
00:25:23,010 --> 00:25:26,290
I don't know. I've never really, I mean I could tell you right now who's

411
00:25:26,290 --> 00:25:30,010
buying it. Are they the person that you think should be buying it? Well,

412
00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:33,450
no. So then we start getting into a

413
00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:37,160
conversation and we get deeper on the how can we

414
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:38,840
fix this systemically,

415
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,040
not just put a band aid on it. But it's very, really depends on the

416
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,000
situation. I mean I managed 25 brands. They all had their own

417
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,600
path, you know, at the same time period.

418
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,240
See it's a, I'm going to guess at this. It's

419
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,840
probably not a big, probably not a huge leap in my thing. But

420
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,600
when you ask questions like that like who's your demographic or

421
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,760
why your acquisition costs, where are you acquiring these people as a Facebook ad or

422
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,340
Instagram ad or what's your, your, you know what you're roas on this.

423
00:26:11,540 --> 00:26:15,300
It's, it's probably not well known. I mean

424
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:19,100
in the sense of they don't want to manage that every

425
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:22,780
day now. I was, I was in DTC and that, that's all we managed

426
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:26,380
or tried to manage and I found most

427
00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:29,220
consultants I went through and I'm going to sort of throw this back at you

428
00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:34,940
and it's probably, I just thought about this for a second. You're probably, you would

429
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:38,580
be a completely different model. You weren't around when I was looking for a consultant,

430
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:44,180
they what I. What I was driving me crazy. It still does.

431
00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:47,940
But I have my. My guard is up now is I

432
00:26:47,940 --> 00:26:51,700
don't want to pay to educate the consultant on

433
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:55,060
what I do in the trade. I do because wine is so unique. It's got

434
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:58,820
such crappy margins, and there's such a small group of people

435
00:26:58,820 --> 00:27:02,070
that would have respond to an ad that I spent money

436
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:05,950
educating them. And here you come along and. Yeah, I work for

437
00:27:05,950 --> 00:27:09,270
Gallo and I've done this a lot, so I already. I understand where you're at

438
00:27:09,270 --> 00:27:12,870
already. Yeah, I get it. And I was also trained as a management consultant where

439
00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:15,510
we'd work for one industry one day and the other industry for the other day.

440
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:19,150
So I'm used to rapid learning. That does not take very

441
00:27:19,150 --> 00:27:22,790
long. I actually just. Just worked for a

442
00:27:22,790 --> 00:27:26,430
horse care company and now I know everything about horses. But, yeah,

443
00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:30,070
it does not. It doesn't take very long. The thinking. The thinking's

444
00:27:30,550 --> 00:27:34,270
similar. There's just a lot more nuance with the three tier

445
00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:38,030
beverage system. But I've been doing that my entire career. I mean, Evian had

446
00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:41,870
three deer. Okay. Three tier. How you motivate people, how you speak to

447
00:27:41,870 --> 00:27:45,270
people, just understanding the economics, it's.

448
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:48,870
It's. Yeah, it's something that I know intimately. So, like,

449
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:54,230
was that kitchen show? Nightmare kitchen with random.

450
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:57,190
There's so many. Yeah, there was one. He goes in there, fixes, you know, it's

451
00:27:57,190 --> 00:28:00,670
a big masses, and he chews out the owners of the restaurants.

452
00:28:01,310 --> 00:28:04,590
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, whatever it is. And here comes

453
00:28:04,830 --> 00:28:08,350
Courtney o' Brien, who's saying we got it all wrong here.

454
00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:12,190
You know, first of all, we had to define who you are and what you've

455
00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:15,670
been trying to do. Why'd you get in this business in the first place? And

456
00:28:15,670 --> 00:28:19,310
now we have to shift. Do you know what success

457
00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:22,870
looks like for you? Are you trying to get acquired by Gallo? Are you trying

458
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:26,670
to be the next Gallo? Are you trying to sell a couple

459
00:28:26,670 --> 00:28:30,510
more cases to your neighbors? Like, what are you. Very different

460
00:28:30,590 --> 00:28:34,270
tactics depending on your goal. That's a really interesting thought

461
00:28:34,270 --> 00:28:37,910
because I get both in here. I've got the

462
00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:41,510
people that think that, you know, cans, you know, 200ml

463
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:45,070
cans are the latest, greatest thing. I had a woman in here who, you know,

464
00:28:45,070 --> 00:28:48,230
thought that she, if she put wine in a 375, it would be the latest,

465
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:51,470
greatest thing. And, and clearly those

466
00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:55,530
brands, I want to delve into this clearly when they

467
00:28:55,530 --> 00:28:59,210
come and sit here, as they would Come and sit with you. And

468
00:28:59,210 --> 00:29:03,010
their. Their idea is to be bought by

469
00:29:03,010 --> 00:29:06,850
somebody, to be that billion dollar Da. Or be the billion dollar. You

470
00:29:06,850 --> 00:29:08,970
know, was it poppy drink? Whatever.

471
00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:15,410
Those are two completely different approaches to the

472
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:19,260
world. Yeah. And I think that one, that version

473
00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:22,900
of it, where I'm trying to make a billion dollars, completely removes

474
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,540
you from what is in the can and what is in the bottle. Am I

475
00:29:26,540 --> 00:29:30,140
wrong? Again, I think of everything

476
00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:33,860
as360. So what's in the bottle has to be singing the same song. It

477
00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:37,460
has to be telling the same story and delivering on it. But again, it depends

478
00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:41,220
on, I think, if you want getting it out in the open. Getting it

479
00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:43,820
out. Sometimes you're like, I've got it in my psyche and I'm not going to

480
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:46,140
say it out loud, but in reality, I do want to be the next Dao.

481
00:29:46,630 --> 00:29:49,670
Okay, well, just tell me that. Right? Because there's a lot

482
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:53,910
that you need to do then. And then that's where,

483
00:29:53,910 --> 00:29:56,630
like, what you have to work with comes into it. Like, I want to be

484
00:29:56,630 --> 00:30:00,390
the next Dao, but here's my constraints, here's what I've

485
00:30:00,390 --> 00:30:04,110
got to work with. I'm situated an hour from

486
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:07,870
la, or I'm in the middle of Indiana. This

487
00:30:07,870 --> 00:30:11,270
is what I make, you know, sound trend or it's not on trend.

488
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,040
Does it ring true? Like, what is everything you have to work with and what

489
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,640
are your aspirations? Like, if I told you I wanted to be a supermodel

490
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,360
and like, okay, here's what you got to work with, here's the things that might

491
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,120
stop you. Here's where you want to go, here's where I can get

492
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,880
you, and here's what it's going to take. And here's the best plan that's

493
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,520
curated for you. And this is the

494
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,440
model to get you there. And we can prove out how it'll get you there

495
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,220
in X amount of years. Because you must get people that say,

496
00:30:41,220 --> 00:30:44,940
and I. And this part I respect, I want to talk to you about some

497
00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:48,500
kind of innovation in a second. But you must get people say, look, I

498
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:52,500
just want to make the best wine I can

499
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:55,940
from this soil I'm given and the temperatures I'm given in the

500
00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:59,540
terroir. And I want to express my family's values

501
00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:02,900
in a bottle of wine. You take care of the rest. Does that happen?

502
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,690
No, because they don't come to me. I mean, they sound like they're happy with

503
00:31:06,690 --> 00:31:10,490
their situation. Right. Like, if they

504
00:31:10,490 --> 00:31:13,050
have problems. So if I

505
00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:18,410
sell problems. So if they are not happy with where they're at. Then

506
00:31:18,410 --> 00:31:22,050
they would come to me and say, I have a problem. If they're

507
00:31:22,050 --> 00:31:25,850
like, I just want to express myself in my family's vineyards,

508
00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:29,450
but I wish I was twice as big, that sort of thing. Or if they're

509
00:31:29,450 --> 00:31:33,140
again as big, what do I have to do in order to make

510
00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:36,900
that happen? I can see that happening. And that would be.

511
00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:40,500
Or, you know, I've got this winery that's underperforming

512
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,260
and I'm doing way worse than my neighbors.

513
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:47,780
I don't even know if I should keep it. My retail business is in the

514
00:31:47,780 --> 00:31:51,620
tank. My cost to run the winery every year is getting

515
00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:55,380
more and more per case because my cases are down. Should I keep

516
00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:57,900
it? Should I let it go? And what do I need to do to turn

517
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,540
it around if I keep it? That's a project I recently worked

518
00:32:01,540 --> 00:32:04,940
on for a major wine company. Wow.

519
00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:09,340
And so it involves a lot of quant, you know, modeling, understanding the competitive

520
00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:12,820
set, understanding of trends, and then giving them a recommendation of what they need to

521
00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:16,099
do to turn it around. Here's how much it would cost. Here's the break even

522
00:32:16,099 --> 00:32:19,260
versus selling it. Which do you want to do? They chose to sell.

523
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:24,020
You must see amazing. Different models so far.

524
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:27,420
And just like, wait a minute, you know this, I've never seen this before. I

525
00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:30,040
mean, you see the, there's charity based

526
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,400
wineries, there's of course the homegrown guy who made a billion dollars as a

527
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,000
surgeon or a freeway builder. Now he just wants to express his

528
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,560
brand. And corporate brands owned by Constellation or

529
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Treasury or whoever that could get to work in their own space. And people have

530
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,400
a lot of different goals, like you're saying, like they've got a lot of.

531
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,640
Being in the wine industry is not as homogenous as it sounds.

532
00:32:54,450 --> 00:32:58,250
People not at all are here for a lot of different reasons. So when

533
00:32:58,250 --> 00:33:01,850
it comes down to that. That's an interesting word to use, homogenous. Because I think

534
00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:05,370
the public in general, it's wine. I had that

535
00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:08,290
conversation last night at a dinner. I went to a big dinner and the guy's

536
00:33:08,290 --> 00:33:11,050
like, you know, I don't, I don't really. I don't really know wine and I

537
00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:14,570
don't drink it because I don't know it, you know, which is the consumerism part

538
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:17,650
of our business, which is we. Don'T like scary things or things that make us

539
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:21,390
look stupid. Always challenging, they're always chat. Wine's

540
00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:25,190
always been challenged that way, has it not? It's, it's this beverage that continues to

541
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:28,910
be there after thousands of years and. And it's.

542
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:31,830
I don't know that it's always been. I mean you look at my. I come

543
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:35,350
from Italian heritage. My grandparents were

544
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:39,190
not the most sophisticated people. He was a plumber, she worked in a

545
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:42,830
paper factory. And they quit to have babies in upstate New York.

546
00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:46,830
But they always had wine on their. Ernest and Julio

547
00:33:46,990 --> 00:33:50,520
Rosso or whatever jogged on the counter. They

548
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,120
didn't feel intimidated by it. You look back at the way Italians and

549
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,560
French use table wine. It is not

550
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,360
intimidating. It is an agricultural product that's

551
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,080
consumed on a regular basis. And you can buy a really

552
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,840
fancy version for special occasions and you can buy a regular table version for

553
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,480
every night drink on your porch. So that's kind of how I

554
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,120
think people in that generation. This would be like the greatest, what we call the

555
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,920
greatest generation in the U.S. but the further

556
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,720
you get away from it, I think the more kind of foreign it felt.

557
00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:27,480
You know, the more you get away from your immigrant roots

558
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,160
in traditionally wine drinking countries, the more

559
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,680
kind of foreign and scary and confusing

560
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,160
you can see it as. You know, olive oil is

561
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,560
having a little bit of the same problem actually talking to an olive oil producer

562
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,349
who. Italians use it in everything. Like my grandma would

563
00:34:46,349 --> 00:34:48,509
put olive oil in a pan and then figure out what she was going to

564
00:34:48,509 --> 00:34:52,349
make for dinner. That's not the case with a lot of other

565
00:34:52,349 --> 00:34:55,869
countries of origin. And now that we're a couple generations in,

566
00:34:56,989 --> 00:35:00,669
they're having trouble resonating, you know. And I think it's somewhat similar.

567
00:35:00,829 --> 00:35:04,589
And then you've got all these other forces in the United States that are

568
00:35:04,589 --> 00:35:08,389
very elitist about wine. And wine is not

569
00:35:08,389 --> 00:35:11,709
all the same. It doesn't need. You don't need to be a sommelier and drink

570
00:35:11,709 --> 00:35:15,510
those types of wines in order to enjoy whatever level wine

571
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:18,230
you want to have tonight with dinner. Just like my grandmother did. She didn't get

572
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:22,030
flustered about it. No, but that's interesting thought. Everybody

573
00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:25,870
certainly know this, but we had wine in our house all the time. That's my

574
00:35:25,870 --> 00:35:29,630
dad was in the business. But I wonder if that's

575
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:33,470
what this, this generation is trying to say and they haven't really

576
00:35:33,470 --> 00:35:37,070
been able to articulate. They just start talking about we need to innovate in the

577
00:35:37,070 --> 00:35:40,910
wine trade. I leave I read a lot of magazines from the 70s

578
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,240
to see if I can glean what was from the seventies. Interesting. Yeah.

579
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,880
The. The Les. Well actually this patch Leslie Divan had a magazine

580
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,680
was precursed. All of the things you read today and it's.

581
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,480
You know, the articles are pretty similar, the language is a little bit different, but

582
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,640
you know, there is, it's a bunch of wine enthusiasts getting together, having

583
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,400
wine and talking about it. Yeah. And that's not all. That's. That's not the entire

584
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,600
group of wine drinkers. Right. Not by a long shot. Family was like that.

585
00:36:07,330 --> 00:36:10,570
But is that what they're trying to do is to, is to

586
00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:13,810
indoctrinate. Let's just take America for a second and

587
00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:18,650
using the wrong words like innovation to get our

588
00:36:18,650 --> 00:36:22,490
tables, our regular American dinner table to have a glass of wine on it.

589
00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:25,570
I don't think that's the case, but I certainly would be a good idea.

590
00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:32,050
I think the wine industry has never been on the cutting edge of marketing.

591
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:36,940
I think it's been product first for, I mean, and a lot

592
00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:39,700
of industries are, you know, I told you I had an offer from Disney and

593
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:43,220
I didn't take it. The reason I didn't take it is because entertainment is

594
00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:46,740
product first. You don't hear about the brilliant Disney

595
00:36:46,740 --> 00:36:49,900
marketers. You hear about the brilliant Disney

596
00:36:50,060 --> 00:36:53,700
creators and producers and the people that make

597
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:57,460
that product. It's a product first industry. That's why I wanted to work in food

598
00:36:57,460 --> 00:37:01,070
and beverage, because outside of wine and other kind of

599
00:37:01,070 --> 00:37:04,150
artistic products, it is a marketing focused industry.

600
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:09,310
Wine has never been a marketing focused industry. It has been a. I want

601
00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:13,110
to express this. It's an agricultural product, just like beef

602
00:37:13,110 --> 00:37:16,910
is not a marketing focused industry. It's arguably, you know,

603
00:37:16,910 --> 00:37:20,230
on the lower end a bit of a commodity. So how do you create

604
00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:23,670
brands becomes even more interesting because it's all

605
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:27,480
creativity and human psyche, especially

606
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,080
on the lower end with not that much difference between

607
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,800
some of these liquids. So I think the

608
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,240
people and when I was leading innovation at

609
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,000
Gallo, my charge what that meant was create

610
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,640
blue sky new brands, new to the world brands. This is not a line

611
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,360
extension. And what that could consist of

612
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,840
was up for discussion. It could consist of, like I said,

613
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,690
360 decisions. This liquid, this country of origin,

614
00:37:56,850 --> 00:38:00,370
this bottle, this positioning, this name, this

615
00:38:00,370 --> 00:38:04,130
consumer target, this label like every. And we're going to launch it in

616
00:38:04,130 --> 00:38:07,250
this way, in this channel. All of those things were up for discussion.

617
00:38:08,610 --> 00:38:12,330
But I think innovation is such a broad word. When

618
00:38:12,330 --> 00:38:16,170
people say wine industry needs to innovate. We are selling

619
00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:19,810
things in general in the same five serving glass,

620
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:23,480
breakable, unopenable by your hands vessel

621
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,760
that we did hundreds of years ago. That's true. But why?

622
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,360
Well, I don't think it's a lack of, of interest in

623
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,800
not doing, had a reason Right. It was, it was a

624
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,599
production decision for the best aging. But I mean, Sauvignon Blanc does not

625
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:42,320
need to be served in that aging vessel. How about

626
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,640
the recipe I just saw the other day where you put jalapenos? Yeah, yeah, I

627
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,320
know people are talking about that. I'm gonna help freeze there because I've noticed

628
00:38:49,550 --> 00:38:52,670
the can section. I've had the pleasure and the

629
00:38:53,470 --> 00:38:57,110
privilege to taste this, the same vintage wine at a

630
00:38:57,110 --> 00:38:59,910
bottle out of a can. I've had the same. I've had the pleasure and the

631
00:38:59,910 --> 00:39:02,990
privilege to taste the same vineyards grapes that made

632
00:39:03,790 --> 00:39:07,550
an ice Pinot Noir from the central coast and its non alk counterpart.

633
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:11,630
And the can section of my local markets is shrinking.

634
00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:16,110
And the non alk, you know, I don't. I'm talking about innovation

635
00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:19,430
now. It's just we're focusing on those two major parts of innovation that are coming

636
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:23,250
out. Non alkal. I mean, non alka been around. I mean, Rodney

637
00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:27,010
Strong's been making non al aerial for like, I don't know, since 89

638
00:39:27,010 --> 00:39:30,490
or something. It's not new. It's new in mass

639
00:39:30,570 --> 00:39:34,010
though, and I think it's new to the current group that's

640
00:39:34,170 --> 00:39:37,970
discovered. So would you, would you recommend a winery? Because this is one

641
00:39:37,970 --> 00:39:41,050
of the trends that we're seeing right now that you should maybe look into a

642
00:39:41,050 --> 00:39:43,970
non elk version of what you're doing. Is it part of your innovation or is

643
00:39:43,970 --> 00:39:47,530
that sort of contingent? We're going to hate this. It all depends

644
00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:51,380
on what you want to achieve, who you are, what you

645
00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:55,060
have to work with and who you're going after it. All of

646
00:39:55,060 --> 00:39:58,620
those tactics, like when I work with clients, as soon as we sign and I

647
00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:02,140
give them a share drive to start dumping stuff, they start sending me. Should I

648
00:40:02,140 --> 00:40:04,740
do this? Should I do that? Here's my thoughts on TikTok. Should I launch a

649
00:40:04,740 --> 00:40:08,220
non out? I'm like, I'm just going to file these. We're just going to let

650
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:12,020
them, we're going to let it sit there, get it all out and

651
00:40:12,020 --> 00:40:15,460
then we're going to start with the basics. Who are you? What do you want

652
00:40:15,460 --> 00:40:18,660
to achieve? What do we have to work with? Who's the consumer? What's the trend?

653
00:40:18,660 --> 00:40:22,410
What are they drinking? And by the time we

654
00:40:22,410 --> 00:40:25,370
get to looking at those, not that this takes forever, but

655
00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:29,690
when we get to looking at those emails, they answer their

656
00:40:29,690 --> 00:40:33,130
own questions. It's like, oh, well, yeah,

657
00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:36,970
okay, this looks kind of silly now, now that we've decided X, Y and Z,

658
00:40:37,690 --> 00:40:41,370
because obviously I would or would not do that. So it just

659
00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:44,730
writes its own. Not every branch should be doing non elk.

660
00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:48,180
Absolutely not. But no, I mean, it's a.

661
00:40:48,740 --> 00:40:52,180
Who was I talking to? I don't think every brand should be doing anything other

662
00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:56,020
than, you know, adhering to laws. I was talking about a chat. I was

663
00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:58,900
talking to a chateau and Lon de Pomerol about this.

664
00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:03,420
He was, yeah, we're thinking about going non elk. I'm like, what. I

665
00:41:03,420 --> 00:41:07,180
mean, what. What value is that going to come to a chateau that, that you

666
00:41:07,180 --> 00:41:10,780
can see Petrus from? To say we're now. Now kind

667
00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:14,470
of entirely. No, but

668
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:18,750
launching one. It takes a lot of effort to produce a non alk

669
00:41:18,750 --> 00:41:22,510
wine and. And then go market it because it sure does. It's a whole

670
00:41:22,510 --> 00:41:26,230
new brand now. Right. Let's talk about that for a second. Your brander,

671
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:31,270
is that not starting over? If you decide to put it in a can

672
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:34,230
or put it like, is there any carryover from Chateau

673
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:38,190
XYZ in their non alk? Is there like,

674
00:41:38,190 --> 00:41:41,770
oh, I drink Chateau xyz. So I think now I'm going to try the now

675
00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:44,930
and out there can't be any crossover. So it gets to what the definition of

676
00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:48,490
a brand is, which I know there's a lot of. I think the vast majority

677
00:41:48,490 --> 00:41:51,970
of wines out there are products, not brands. Yeah.

678
00:41:52,130 --> 00:41:55,490
My definition of a brand is something that transcends the actual product.

679
00:41:55,730 --> 00:41:59,370
Like, it's more than just this right here. It's an idea that's

680
00:41:59,370 --> 00:42:02,970
bigger than any given product. And to me, my litmus test

681
00:42:02,970 --> 00:42:06,570
is it makes me want to quit my job and go start five companies to

682
00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:10,200
deliver on that idea. And when it

683
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,840
really becomes a brand, that's my like,

684
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,160
tickling of an idea of a brand. When it really becomes a brand is

685
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,960
when other people can repeat that. When other people say, oh,

686
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,760
XYZ brand, yeah, that's about this. And it's

687
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,080
not just, oh, yeah, that's about a red wine from

688
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,480
whatever street. Right. It's not just about the product, it's about a bigger

689
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,180
idea. So if you look at it that way, there aren't very

690
00:42:36,180 --> 00:42:39,860
many brands that Chateau xyz, it

691
00:42:39,860 --> 00:42:42,460
stands for this in my mind.

692
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:47,260
So if you look at your question through that lens, does it stand for anything?

693
00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:51,100
The vast majority of my labels do not stand for anything

694
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:54,420
beyond that actual product in

695
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:57,980
people's minds. And so if you do

696
00:42:58,060 --> 00:43:01,800
like say, if you're whispering angel, maybe it stands

697
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,360
for premium. Reminds me of Miami beach.

698
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,040
Kind of like a celebrities. I've seen it served at these hotels

699
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,160
or it's Brad and Angelina's brand. And then they put one

700
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,000
of those in a can. Yes. I think your equity

701
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,840
carries over, but if it's not, then

702
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,360
you might as well just name it abc because it's.

703
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,680
Unless your guests at your property are. A lot of

704
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,040
them are asking for a non elk option because they're not enjoying

705
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,840
themselves with the rest of their party there. And it's kind

706
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,080
of more of a tactical decision to provide something for them

707
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,720
so that mixed parties will start, you know, attending.

708
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,800
I don't know that you want to put a lot of effort into creating another

709
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,940
sub brand unless it really helps deliver on your goals. That's the

710
00:43:53,940 --> 00:43:57,700
key. Right. Because if clearly in this case

711
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:01,420
it would not have happened. He's right. Just trying to build his regular wine brand

712
00:44:01,420 --> 00:44:05,220
and now you're gonna. There's no, like I said, there's no Venn

713
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:08,939
diagram in a brand like that. Certainly like you said, the equ. I like the

714
00:44:08,939 --> 00:44:12,660
word equity in that whispering angel example. They would

715
00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:16,420
carry over because they would see the whispering angel logo and they go now

716
00:44:16,420 --> 00:44:19,620
or can or whatever you're doing. But for the most part,

717
00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:22,580
much like podcasts, actually

718
00:44:23,780 --> 00:44:26,620
a lot of the pundits in the podcast world saying hey, if you have a

719
00:44:26,620 --> 00:44:29,500
business and you don't have a podcast, you're wasting your time. How are you going

720
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:32,940
to tell people about who you are? And it's like, yeah, but podcasts aren't an

721
00:44:32,940 --> 00:44:36,700
answerly part of your business. It itself is a brand that you've got to go

722
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:40,140
figure out how to market on its own. You can't just. Absolutely. It's a time

723
00:44:40,140 --> 00:44:43,980
consuming tackle funnel. I just said no to starting a new one with

724
00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:47,720
someone. I'd like to, I like talking, I

725
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:51,240
like hosting, I'd like to do this stuff all day. But it's, it's a top

726
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:54,920
of funnel marketing tool. Right? It takes its

727
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,200
own set of marketing. It's a marketing tool you have to market and

728
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,520
it's time consuming and it's not for the faint of heart. It's something that once

729
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,320
you start, you should really keep going. It's not like, you know, you're just

730
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,920
like not going to feel like doing it for the least. It's not a, it's

731
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,730
not a campaign. It's a commitment. Right. I'm committed to it. You

732
00:45:11,730 --> 00:45:14,490
know, you said something interesting about this and I'm sure you get this all the

733
00:45:14,490 --> 00:45:18,290
time and your response is sometimes probably roll your eyes or raise

734
00:45:18,290 --> 00:45:22,130
your eyebrows. Either way is you said it earlier

735
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:25,890
that as soon as you sign up a winery or

736
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:30,010
DTC company to do this. They start sending you their TikTok stuff

737
00:45:30,010 --> 00:45:33,490
and their Instagram and you get the links and you're looking at. And. And

738
00:45:34,210 --> 00:45:38,050
that's pretty granular thing to worry about at that point, is it? Not like

739
00:45:39,530 --> 00:45:42,970
that's so sure you to analyze your Tick Tock feed at this

740
00:45:42,970 --> 00:45:46,570
moment because you're, you've been just playing

741
00:45:46,570 --> 00:45:50,210
shotgun approach to all this and now we need to sit out

742
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:53,970
and focus on the idea and then let's adjust Tick tock and

743
00:45:53,970 --> 00:45:57,530
Facebook and correct me if I'm wrong and what you tell your people,

744
00:45:57,530 --> 00:46:01,290
but, you know, my experience with doing all this was, you know, it's damned

745
00:46:01,290 --> 00:46:04,960
if you do and damned if you don't. Are you, are

746
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,680
you young? Old enough. Young slash old

747
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,160
enough to know of Bewitched, the TV show? Yeah, I remember

748
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,960
Bewitched. Okay, so Larry Tate was the owner of the PR agency.

749
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,640
Right. The advertising agency and that. There's a very slow process. Then you,

750
00:46:19,879 --> 00:46:23,480
you would go see Larry Tate and Darren Stevens and they,

751
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,320
he'd have his, his easel up there and he'd go through the pitch and then

752
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,640
you would approve the pitch and then you wouldn't talk. They wouldn't see each other

753
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,120
again because that was the way they used to do priority and that was the

754
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,800
way it. You marketed stuff. It was very slow and very

755
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,320
cause and effect. Now like, you can start

756
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,320
tomorrow, you can start in 15 minutes. You don't even need. You can have a

757
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,800
website in an hour. Yeah. So it's a different

758
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,320
environment and you can get lost in the minutia.

759
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,080
Yes. Trying to figure this out. Yes. And then realize, you know,

760
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,840
it really isn't that effective. Spend a lot of money very quickly. Yes. And then

761
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,620
go. I didn't really get anywhere. And there's no brand building. So.

762
00:47:02,650 --> 00:47:06,210
So how do you, how are you talking to people? Where are you

763
00:47:06,210 --> 00:47:09,610
finding yourself being moved into when it comes to

764
00:47:10,570 --> 00:47:14,250
telling people about your wares? I see your post books. You're interested. Oh, my

765
00:47:14,250 --> 00:47:18,050
personal marketing. Yes. I do the same.

766
00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:21,610
No trade secrets here. I do the same thing I do for my brands.

767
00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:25,570
So, you know, I, you know, I said to my husband

768
00:47:25,570 --> 00:47:28,500
when I left corporate and started my own brand, I'm like,

769
00:47:29,130 --> 00:47:32,970
there's a lot of the best marketers I know

770
00:47:33,210 --> 00:47:36,930
don't say anything about themselves. They don't market themselves. And

771
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:40,130
then now that I'm on, you know, not my nose to the

772
00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:43,850
grindstone, working 247 for one company, I

773
00:47:43,850 --> 00:47:47,650
notice all these other people marketing themselves, but their Backgrounds

774
00:47:47,650 --> 00:47:50,650
are just not there. Like, do they really have that experience?

775
00:47:51,610 --> 00:47:54,390
No. What would happen if I combined those two things?

776
00:47:55,980 --> 00:47:59,700
And so that's, I mean, you really have to put your money where your

777
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:02,700
mouth is. If you are selling marketing and you are not good at marketing yourself,

778
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:06,540
like, you just have to be. You can't be like a first grade teacher

779
00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:09,660
who can't spell right. Like you, you have to put

780
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:13,260
yourself in there as a product. I. People

781
00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:16,460
compliment me on my marketing. I'm like, what choice do I have?

782
00:48:17,260 --> 00:48:20,740
Not only do I believe it, believe in it, and of course I'm going to

783
00:48:20,740 --> 00:48:24,530
take advantage of it myself, but if I didn't do it well, that would be

784
00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:28,290
horrible luck for my business, right? So I do the

785
00:48:28,290 --> 00:48:31,210
same thing. What do I stand for? What? And that's why I love talking to

786
00:48:31,210 --> 00:48:34,090
people about their careers too, because it's the same thing I did to myself.

787
00:48:34,970 --> 00:48:37,290
What do I have to work with? What are my pros? What are my cons?

788
00:48:37,290 --> 00:48:40,810
Who are my competitors? What are their advantages versus me?

789
00:48:41,770 --> 00:48:45,250
Where are my target audience giving their attention? A lot of them on

790
00:48:45,250 --> 00:48:47,850
LinkedIn. I sell B2B services.

791
00:48:48,810 --> 00:48:52,510
And what do I want to be talking about? What's, you know, that's

792
00:48:52,510 --> 00:48:55,630
way down the line. What do I want to be talking about? How do I

793
00:48:55,630 --> 00:48:58,510
talk about it? Do I make a video? Do I put that video on Instagram?

794
00:48:58,510 --> 00:49:02,350
That's like eight decisions deep. I don't need to be worrying about the video for

795
00:49:02,350 --> 00:49:06,150
Instagram when I haven't even decided what I want to build, who I

796
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:09,670
want to talk to and how I'm going to say it can't. Be the shoe

797
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:13,310
man's son has no shoes. Right. Or in my case, the

798
00:49:13,310 --> 00:49:17,110
CPA's husband's taxes are always late. I have

799
00:49:17,110 --> 00:49:20,940
a contractor for a husband and our roof has been unfinished for years. Four,

800
00:49:21,330 --> 00:49:23,810
five years. Okay, that's hilarious.

801
00:49:25,970 --> 00:49:29,690
Well, it's an interesting point because. And I think part of this

802
00:49:29,690 --> 00:49:33,370
is generational and you and I probably are not used

803
00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:37,209
to talking about ourselves because you want to do the job

804
00:49:37,209 --> 00:49:40,210
and do the job right and it's about the job and. But that's a lot

805
00:49:40,210 --> 00:49:42,530
of best. People are just like, I'm just going to keep doing the best work

806
00:49:42,530 --> 00:49:45,810
and people are going to notice me because. I am just not that way.

807
00:49:46,050 --> 00:49:48,950
Particularly with social networking, which is a self branding

808
00:49:49,830 --> 00:49:53,550
tool in the first place. Yep. As always was. It's very funny

809
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:57,110
because when I bring in younger generations here and they just

810
00:49:57,110 --> 00:50:00,150
would have all these ideas and I was like, you guys, you know One of

811
00:50:00,150 --> 00:50:03,790
the things you got to remember about social networking hasn't changed since it started,

812
00:50:03,790 --> 00:50:07,590
which is one person tells 10 and that person, those 10

813
00:50:07,590 --> 00:50:10,190
tell 10 and those tell 10. And all of a sudden you've told a hundred

814
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:13,110
thousand people. And you've got to remember, that's the point.

815
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:17,110
It's not about raising your flag and talking about how great you are all the

816
00:50:17,110 --> 00:50:20,830
time. But then you're right, if you don't have the muscle behind what you're talking

817
00:50:20,830 --> 00:50:24,550
about, the experience, to say I'm qualified to

818
00:50:24,550 --> 00:50:27,590
help you here, then it's just

819
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,910
flag waving. People are not going to find out about you just because you're doing

820
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:35,710
great work inside corporation. And somebody tells somebody and somebody tells somebody. People

821
00:50:35,710 --> 00:50:39,270
are too busy with their own stuff. Yes. You have to go to them.

822
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:42,900
Yes. Well, you're doing a great job. We're already at 51 minutes, which is

823
00:50:42,900 --> 00:50:46,660
unbelievable. Thank you. This is fun and I

824
00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:50,260
hope we can do it again. There's more to talk about and as you've.

825
00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:52,820
As I peel back the things you're writing and talking about,

826
00:50:53,940 --> 00:50:57,460
I'd like to bring it back on in a few months and see what has

827
00:50:57,460 --> 00:51:00,580
moved, what's changed. Something will have changed by then, as we know.

828
00:51:01,540 --> 00:51:04,420
Before we get off, there was one thing that I wanted to bring about

829
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:08,460
innovation, and I call it

830
00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:12,980
experiential innovation. Maybe that's not my own word, but

831
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:16,500
when we were in Bordeaux last month, and not last month,

832
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:18,700
last, last May, actually, it's been a year already,

833
00:51:20,300 --> 00:51:23,980
we went to Chateau Bailly and had an incredible experience with

834
00:51:23,980 --> 00:51:27,620
Veronique Sanders Van Beek, the director there. But

835
00:51:27,620 --> 00:51:30,940
what she showed us, and this

836
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:35,230
goes back to your storytelling, we went into their. Their new winery and

837
00:51:35,230 --> 00:51:38,990
it's phenomenally thought through. And so if I'm. If I'm

838
00:51:38,990 --> 00:51:42,710
a visitor and I see this and I'm explained why this

839
00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:46,470
was designed the way it was designed, I'll never forget

840
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:50,110
that. Right. I'll never forget that experience. And wine has always been

841
00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:53,830
that. Always. It's not an experience to say, I've got this

842
00:51:53,830 --> 00:51:57,680
for five bucks on the Internet. That's not an experience. And I don't.

843
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,600
That's the part about the history of wine that

844
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,760
I don't think it can be shaken or needs to be diverted or changed.

845
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,520
It'll always be the bedrock of the proper glass

846
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,280
of wine that somebody comes to and says, wow, this is something

847
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,640
special. Tell us. Yeah, bristle. When you say the word proper,

848
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,480
what do you mean? What? Bristle. It's.

849
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,150
It's. I Think it's subjective. I think a lot of people that love

850
00:52:25,150 --> 00:52:28,310
wine and wine people, you know, we did research on this,

851
00:52:29,590 --> 00:52:33,310
almost all of us, because I'm one of them, have, have had

852
00:52:33,310 --> 00:52:36,790
their aha moment. Their moment that they can remember that they first

853
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:40,670
got it about wine there. It picked me and I could tell you

854
00:52:40,670 --> 00:52:42,710
mine. I bet you could tell me yours. I mean there's. I'm sure there's not

855
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:45,270
many, but like your first one that

856
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:49,750
sparked your love. Not everybody's like that.

857
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:53,230
Not everybody is like us and is going to be a wine geek and

858
00:52:53,230 --> 00:52:56,810
wants to go to the chate. And I think the wine

859
00:52:56,810 --> 00:53:00,610
drinking potential population and casual wine drinking population

860
00:53:01,250 --> 00:53:04,050
may be fine with a $5 glass on the Internet

861
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:09,010
because I don't feel equally. Go ahead. I'm not trying to

862
00:53:09,010 --> 00:53:12,810
cast that wide net in that regard because I think anybody that

863
00:53:12,810 --> 00:53:16,650
drinks a really good glass of wine at least will acknowledge is really good.

864
00:53:16,650 --> 00:53:19,090
And I'll give you an example. When I was with some friends in Napa for

865
00:53:19,090 --> 00:53:21,970
the first time. Now these people, like, they criticize everything I do now,

866
00:53:22,980 --> 00:53:25,660
but up and. Well, before, when I had gone to Napa, this is about five

867
00:53:25,660 --> 00:53:29,460
or seven years ago, we were sitting at Clopagas, you

868
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:32,980
know, one of the old vintage wine estates properties. And we have two

869
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:36,780
2014 cabernets. Two different vineyards actually. One was probably the blend and

870
00:53:36,780 --> 00:53:40,540
one was probably vineyard specific. And my friend said, right

871
00:53:40,540 --> 00:53:44,300
in my face. My 50 or my friend of 50 years said, I think this

872
00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:47,660
is. You're full of. I go, what do you mean? He goes, you're full of.

873
00:53:47,660 --> 00:53:50,180
The way you guys use those expressions. And he's talking about this, talk about that.

874
00:53:50,180 --> 00:53:52,900
It doesn't mean anything. I said, okay, let me ask you this question. You've got

875
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:56,140
two Cabernets here. They're both the same grape, same winemaker, two different

876
00:53:56,540 --> 00:54:00,340
reasons there in the bottle. Do they taste different to you? He said,

877
00:54:00,340 --> 00:54:03,580
yeah. I said, you're on your way. You just started.

878
00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:08,299
Yeah. They explain it, but you notice the difference. Yeah. I'm not

879
00:54:08,299 --> 00:54:11,820
saying that everybody feels that way. So that. And that kind of circled all the

880
00:54:11,820 --> 00:54:15,540
way back360 to the conversation about your Italian family sitting with

881
00:54:15,540 --> 00:54:18,950
a glass of wine on the table every night. It wasn't about

882
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:22,670
swirling and sniffing and trying to dissect it. Right. It was no care of ever

883
00:54:22,670 --> 00:54:26,310
going to a chateau. They didn't. They've never even traveled, Never done that. Right,

884
00:54:26,550 --> 00:54:30,350
Right. And there's, there's. If you want to sell volume again, it goes back

885
00:54:30,350 --> 00:54:34,190
to what your goal is you can be as artistic as you want

886
00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:38,030
if you. You just need to know what you want to achieve, how

887
00:54:38,030 --> 00:54:40,910
much you're going to spend on getting there and how fast you want to get

888
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:44,740
there. I can't wait to hear in a few months. The

889
00:54:44,740 --> 00:54:48,060
sort of. The percentage of people have come to you with their different problem, the

890
00:54:48,060 --> 00:54:51,820
types of problems. Eventually you're gonna. It's so fun. A bucket of

891
00:54:51,820 --> 00:54:55,220
one kind of problem, a bucket with other kind of problems. Yeah. A different type

892
00:54:55,220 --> 00:54:59,060
of client. And it'll change, I think. I think every six months it's going to

893
00:54:59,060 --> 00:55:02,820
be changing. There is no shortage of problems in the world. There might

894
00:55:02,820 --> 00:55:06,580
be, you know, layoffs and tariffs and. But there's

895
00:55:06,580 --> 00:55:10,300
no shortage problems. Such a pleasure to have on the show, and I hope

896
00:55:10,300 --> 00:55:13,980
we can see each other soon. You're. You're in Washington? No,

897
00:55:13,980 --> 00:55:17,740
I'm in California. Oh, San Francisco area. Yep. And how

898
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:21,380
often do you get over to the Valley? Napa Valley. I was just there for

899
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:25,060
the last three days. I just got back. You know, we're up all the time.

900
00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:28,219
I'm going to give you some notice. If we happen to be able to grab

901
00:55:28,219 --> 00:55:31,460
a glass or a lunch or something, we'd love to do it. Yeah, absolutely.

902
00:55:32,340 --> 00:55:34,660
Thanks again. Thanks, Paul. Cheers.