Heritage, hotels, rugs and wine. Meet James Tufenkian

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Carson, Leno,

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in an away game

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in beautiful downtown Yetavan, about to have a conversation with James Dufengan.

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Introductions in just a moment. Wine talks. This episode

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sponsored by Total Wine and more, where you love what you find and find what

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you love. Distilled spirits, not available in Virginia or New

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Hampshire. Must be 21 or older. Dubai

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wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, wherever you hang up for

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podcasting. And I was gonna say sponsored by the

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original wine of the month club, but that's no longer the case because I sold

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it. But we're here

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to have a fabulous conversation with a relative, with a mover

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to shaker of the armenian world. He's a hoteliere,

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he is a carpet manufacturer. I don't even know what else.

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He plants. Trees. And he now is getting into

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the wine business. So we thought we'd have a conversation with cousin James Dufengan. Welcome

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to the show. Hey, thanks, Paul. This is fabulous. We already had a great

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conversation already to be here, but you've done so

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much for the community. But catching up. You were born in

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LA, went to the law school in New

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York, dated my sister. I mean, what else could there be?

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That could have been the first point on my resume. Dated Paul's sister.

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I'm very proud. I appreciate that. I'll let her know.

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But you were what's fascinating to me about your

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story. And of course, Greg, my brother in law, keeps this posted. You

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are the second cousin to my father in law.

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Is that accurate? Something like that, yeah.

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Your father and my father in law were

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first cousins. No, his father. Did I

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scream his father? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Ralph's father

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was my father's first cousin. Okay, this is bizarre. I'll tell you why it's bizarre.

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I just told the story to Connor. I come, Santa and I get engaged.

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We're at the Tufenkian household. I walk down the

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hallway to her bedroom and this gentleman comes out of the bathroom

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and he's a spitting image of my mom's father. Spitting image. I'm

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like freaking out, like. Cause he reincarnated. His name was

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Harry Denalian. Huh. Okay. Now he's married to

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Ralph's sister

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Marian. Okay. So I look at Santa, I go, who is this guy? She

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goes, that's Harry D'alien. What do you mean? D'Nalian? That's my father. That's my mom's

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maiden name. Well, they were first cousins. No kidding?

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Yeah. So when we were going through

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photographs when Marian passed away a couple years ago, there's my

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grandfather and this guy Harry hanging out at some event. I don't know what they

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were doing. There's all kinds of pictures of them together. So now I call Sandra

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cousin Cuz, as it were.

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It was just a little scary. But anyway, so you said you were in

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law school in New York. Were you chasing law

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for to do justice or to. Yeah,

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it was kind of a justice mission. I

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mean, how I ended up in New York is kind of interesting for this context

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because I actually grew up knowing nothing about being

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Armenian. I didn't know about the genocide until I happened on

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a book about it in the library in college in Oregon.

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And when I learned about it, I just. Something

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in me just turned around and I said, I've got to become Armenian.

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So when I applied to law school, I only applied in New York because I

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thought, and I also wanted to be in New York, but I thought that's a

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place to connect with Armenians, and that's really what I wanted to do.

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So, yeah, so that's just. That's just right

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there. Really interesting. I grew up, my dad

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was, you know, very cultural,

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but America was important, part of his culture as well,

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but certainly very familiar with the genocide. My grandparents fled both

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sides. But you read a book that

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piques some interest. And I, obviously, Oregon,

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I knew David a little bit. We shared wine together a little bit.

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Do you remember what it was that this tragedy or this

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suppression or oppression that triggered an interest in

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this? Well, I think my whole family, for some reason, and you can't really

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see it in my parents, but my brother and sister and I all were

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very justice oriented. I think my mom had a strong streak

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of that. Just the

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injustice of the genocide, besides the horror.

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I mean, yeah, it just was something. And

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that was my history. And I think at some point, I realized

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that if I didn't kind of turn around and become

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Armenian, I was actually participating in the genocide by

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dissolving into american society. And I was like the next

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generation of the Turks eliminating us as a race, and I

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wasn't going to be a part of that. That's very interesting. So why do you

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think in your household, you would. I mean, my father spoke five languages.

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I've still had learned one. My second language had to learn on my

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own, which he spoke. But how is it that you don't

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think your parents were indoctrinated that way?

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I think they were just too focused on making it in America, you know?

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Yeah. And maybe it was that time they were

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politically kind of conservative. We were always

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very deeply christian, protestant, christian,

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and that was kind of their channel for

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their energies, all of that. I think that generation was like

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that. I mean, they came to America, they saw the opportunities.

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They felt like they owed. My dad, clearly, in 1949, when he came

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here, felt like he owed America. Well, USC

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in particular, something, because they game of

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life, and maybe that's what it is, but they would never forget the

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genocide. So what happened with that one? What did you do with this information?

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The information about the genocide? Yeah. Like, you turned to New York. I'm going

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to be. I'm going to move to New York and I'm going to become an

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Armenian. Yeah. So I first big move was

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I joined the entranique dance group in New York while I

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was going to law school. There's no one ever.

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And, yeah, I. And there, I mean, that opened up a whole

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world of Armenians. I mean, it was around

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the time that Beirut was in

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major civil war. And so the group consisted

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of Armenians from all these exotic places that I had

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dreamed about, you know, places like Beirut and Aleppo and

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Cairo. And so it was just, I mean, for me,

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a white bred kid from, actually, Oregon, more than California.

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It was like just opening a door to the world. It was so

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exciting for me. So did you recognize the differences of the

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location? Like the babies having their tendencies? They were

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lunatics. That's what I remember. Yeah.

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Very big differences. That's very funny. And also the second

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generation Armenians like me, there were a few of us from California, and

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like, we were just in a totally different world too. I mean,

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but it was so great being together and just feeling this sense

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of kind of brotherhood and sisterhood with Armenians from

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everywhere. Held early twenties

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because I went to. Armenian assembly internship in Washington, DC. And

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I had, look, my mom would threaten me with sending me to Camp

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KeSsOB if I didn't behave. I mean, literally, she would do that. The

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worst thing she could do to you. Exactly. She'd put on my

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place at the dinner table saying, if you don't behave, she'd circle the ad.

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And so I didn't know about our music until I got to Washington, DC

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and open the whole world. I went to dinner with my friend, one of my

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best friends, Greg Felician, right now, learned about Roosa Heights and all that

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stuff. You know, I think that's

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that root culture stuff was. It kind of triggers a little bit.

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You kind of feel a little nostalgic. You kind of feel like, it's going on.

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So. But how'd you end up here then? I mean, there's a huge chasm between

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joining the entre de dance group and, you know, developing in

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Armenia. Right. Well, the story starts in

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1981. I came here on a Columbia

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university sponsored student

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trip, and a few of my friends came along and

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we spent ten days in Armenia and fell

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totally in love with the place. And on the last day of the trip, we're

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sitting around on the steps of one of the ministries and

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somebody said, so if Armenia ever became

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free, I mean, not like it's ever going to happen or any way it's

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possible, but, like, would you come back? You know? And we basically

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all said, well, yeah, of course we would. It'd be the

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opportunity of a lifetime. A thousand years with no country, and

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we have to come back. So then

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came independence and the Artsakh war,

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and I was sitting comfortably in my

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nice apartment in New York with my new successful business

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and just couldn't sleep nights thinking that I was not

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a part of this big struggle that was going on. I mean, it looked like

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a next genocide at that time. And I wasn't going to sit on the

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sidelines. You were making

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carpets at that point. Yeah. And that's key, actually, because,

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I mean, everybody knew at that point, this was probably in 90, this was in

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93, that what Armenia needed more than

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anything was employment. There was like no economy here. Everything

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had collapsed. It was total chaos and they needed

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employment. And some years before, I had already set

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up a corporate production in Nepal with some tibetan

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partners. And that was the basis of my business. And I

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looked at Armenia and I said, there's no reason I couldn't do the same thing

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there. So, you know, before I came, everybody is telling me it's

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an impossible place to work. You know, there are corruption

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and chaos, and if you happen to be successful, the

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mafia will edge in on your business. And I just said, I

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don't care. I'm going. So I came here to start up a

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carpet business. That is fascinating. We gotta go back to, you said

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you had a successful carpet business in Nepal, and now they're actually trying

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to grow grapes in certain parts of India. But

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there's kind of a jump there. You're at law school and now you're making

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carpets, which is a huge undertaking in a country that had

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probably less resources than, than expected.

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So what? Just tell me about that for a second. The

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transition from law to carpets. Yeah.

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Simply says, no one ever again. Third year of law school, I had

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worked a couple summers for law firms. And I looked in the

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mirror one day and I said, dude, these are the best

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years of your life. There is no way you're going to dress up in a

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suit and chain yourself to a desk for 12 hours every day.

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And I said, I got to find another way. And I

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had been buying and selling carpets to pay my way through law school. I knew

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a little bit about it because of some previous experience.

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And I had this idea about making the first

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21st century modern oriental rug

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business. I mean, the industry hadn't changed

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in 500 years. And so I had

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this idea, and I thought if I was successful at it, I could work.

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Work it for three or four years, build it up and sell it off, and

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then just spend the rest of my life doing good things for the world.

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Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. You got a lot of self talk going on in

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your younger days, right? I mean, I haven't given you the half of

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it. Yeah. Right. Looking at life and saying, you know, this

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isn't for me. And I certainly can understand the lost side of it, but

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not wanting to do that work, but then to create an industry out

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of nothing is, you know, huge. And then you come to Armenia to do the

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same. And this is 19. This

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is after freedom. 1991. It's 93. So the war was

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still going on. I came here in September of 93 for the first

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time, went straight to the AUA. I

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figured the only way I could avoid the corruption was to try and get

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some young people who had somehow been indoctrinated in western

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thinking. So I went and put up a job

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posting. Like, the first day I got here at AUA for a

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manager to help me develop this carpet business in

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Armenia. And I ended up hiring a graduate from

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the first class, the first MBA class from AUA.

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And then, by the way, my hotel business is based on. I started out with

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four MBA graduates from AUa. So I have a big

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debt to Aua. That's huge. Yeah, a huge debt to them.

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But this is, I think this is a challenge even

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today. We came here in 2006. I mean, it was completely different. Part

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of Yerevan was not the same. And you were there now in 1993, and

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it's even less the same,

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less going on. But finding an indoctrinated,

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I think, isn't that one of the struggles today with Armenia's political system

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is getting kids indoctrinated to the western thinking so that they're not

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just hog tied to the traditional methodologies? I think you don't even have

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to work at it anymore. I mean, you know, people ask me because I say

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it's completely different environment here than it was 30 years ago.

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And a good part of that is because of the government, which, despite

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all its shortcomings, I mean, has made a tremendous change in the

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country. Really? Yeah. I always have to give them

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credit. I can talk for hours about their shortcomings.

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But the world here in Armenia is completely

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different than it was five years ago. And so going

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back to the youth, I mean, a big part of the change in Armenia

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was that, but an even bigger part is just that as

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the soviet era died off and is fading out,

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those people, the young people, have somehow

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grown up very pure and very like western

234
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thinking and just a whole different kind of human

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being. That's interesting because,

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yes, if you talk people diaspora, they're going to tell you about the shortcomings of

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the government. Of course, there's the classic armenian arguments going on.

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But when we drove to the monastery yesterday, the day

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before, my comment and my question to Sandra was,

240
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are you more inspired to come and help or are you more resolved? The

241
00:14:41,874 --> 00:14:45,402
fact that they can't help themselves, and you're saying, yeah, they can help themselves.

242
00:14:45,506 --> 00:14:49,282
Oh, no doubt about it. And they're doing a lot here. But this infrastructure of

243
00:14:49,306 --> 00:14:53,026
this, just the street alone, where's that infrastructure coming from?

244
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Is it the diaspora money? Is it the russian money?

245
00:14:56,610 --> 00:15:00,322
Why did this happen? Just this street? Yes. Downtown

246
00:15:00,346 --> 00:15:04,122
Yerevan in general, I don't want. To go too deep into it, but

247
00:15:04,146 --> 00:15:07,874
let's say there was a lot of local rich people and russian

248
00:15:07,922 --> 00:15:11,770
rich people that provided the funding, but that's not. Enough to sustain it. The lifestyle

249
00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:15,026
has to be abducted. People have to want to be able to do this. Oh,

250
00:15:15,058 --> 00:15:18,824
yeah. No, the economy is, I mean, developing into being

251
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very broad based and just red hot,

252
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too. I mean. Yeah. And so then the idea for hotels came

253
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,776
about after the carpets were kind of going, you thought, we need

254
00:15:29,888 --> 00:15:33,720
western style hotels, which weren't really around. I mean, saviour and the Ani hotel

255
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,040
for a while, but that really wasn't, you know, western

256
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,840
style. Yeah. I mean, the normal thing to do

257
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,464
would have been to build a hotel in Yerevan, which I eventually did. But the

258
00:15:44,552 --> 00:15:48,232
idea, which was started in 1999, was to

259
00:15:48,256 --> 00:15:51,856
build hotels in the regions because at that time,

260
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people were still following the old soviet model. They come to Armenia

261
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,480
to visit, and they'd sit in Yerevan and take exhausting day

262
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,272
trips to the countryside and come back to Yerevan at night. And

263
00:16:03,296 --> 00:16:06,860
they weren't getting to experience, really, the joys,

264
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,984
the culture, the flavor of the countryside. So I really

265
00:16:11,032 --> 00:16:14,480
wanted to help open up the regions for tourism by starting regional

266
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,148
hotels and then eventually built this one in

267
00:16:18,164 --> 00:16:21,908
Yerevan by Verna Sage. What does that brand stand for? What does the

268
00:16:21,924 --> 00:16:25,628
two Fankian brand philosophy? What does it mean? If I go to

269
00:16:25,644 --> 00:16:28,460
Europe, I'm going to go to the Sofitels or I'm going to go to whatever

270
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:31,600
chain. What does the two fancian chain represent?

271
00:16:32,220 --> 00:16:35,836
I think, first of all, it's always

272
00:16:35,908 --> 00:16:39,260
integrating the culture and history into modernity.

273
00:16:39,340 --> 00:16:42,868
So, I mean, if you see the design of my hotels, they're very

274
00:16:42,924 --> 00:16:46,652
traditional and very modern at the same time. And I think tastefully.

275
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So it's easy to do that badly. And I think we've avoided

276
00:16:50,568 --> 00:16:54,260
that. And also it's about service.

277
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When we first started, I mean, I came to my team and I said,

278
00:16:59,128 --> 00:17:02,900
look, guys, this

279
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,220
idea of hospitality, this is built in darmenian culture.

280
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All of you know what it's like to have a guest in your home and

281
00:17:10,648 --> 00:17:14,408
how you treat them. The idea here is that you just take that feeling

282
00:17:14,464 --> 00:17:18,311
and convey it to the guests in our hotels. And it's been the

283
00:17:18,335 --> 00:17:22,183
guiding philosophy for 23 years. And it really

284
00:17:22,231 --> 00:17:25,815
is embedded in the staff, the management all the way through.

285
00:17:26,007 --> 00:17:29,647
You know, that is amazingly simple but amazingly brilliant at the

286
00:17:29,663 --> 00:17:33,511
same time because, like some of our friends, they

287
00:17:33,535 --> 00:17:36,179
wanted to go visit their ancestors villages.

288
00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:41,351
I forgot the name now, but they went yesterday, and they're literally talking

289
00:17:41,375 --> 00:17:44,904
to people on the street saying, I'm a cousin of, and they're like,

290
00:17:45,072 --> 00:17:48,640
into the house and before, you know, there's a full spread. That's

291
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,500
right. Exactly. Forget about the rest of the day. Yeah, yeah.

292
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,600
But you commercialize this idea because hospitality probably wasn't

293
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,096
the greatest asset to the

294
00:18:01,128 --> 00:18:04,928
leftover soviet worker. Right? Yeah, I think, actually, I never thought about it, but I

295
00:18:04,944 --> 00:18:08,248
think you could say there was like they were one person at home and they

296
00:18:08,264 --> 00:18:11,816
were another person at work, typically, you know, and I tried to bring the

297
00:18:11,848 --> 00:18:15,308
home mentality into the work. That's fascinating. Yeah,

298
00:18:15,444 --> 00:18:18,996
seems to be working. Yeah, I think so. Guests seem to like

299
00:18:19,028 --> 00:18:22,716
it. So last night we went to, I had

300
00:18:22,748 --> 00:18:26,120
this morning on the podcast, I had Miriam,

301
00:18:26,820 --> 00:18:30,604
what was it? Sherlocian. Anyway,

302
00:18:30,652 --> 00:18:33,812
she runs the in vino wine bar. Oh, yeah. And,

303
00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:37,748
yeah, saga Italian. And I

304
00:18:37,764 --> 00:18:41,486
see a bottle of tufakian wine there. And, you know, being

305
00:18:41,518 --> 00:18:44,610
the diaspora and being in the wine business for 35 years,

306
00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:49,662
you know, I was a little reluctant to embrace the army and wine industry,

307
00:18:49,766 --> 00:18:53,262
frankly. You know that we know it

308
00:18:53,286 --> 00:18:56,934
takes generations. You know, it takes multiple

309
00:18:56,982 --> 00:19:00,726
vintages to figure out what's going on in the soil, but kind of interesting

310
00:19:00,758 --> 00:19:03,702
to see your brand here. So what's the thought process

311
00:19:03,886 --> 00:19:06,620
behind venturing into the wine world?

312
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,296
Part of it was just I always have loved farming and the idea of

313
00:19:12,328 --> 00:19:15,060
growing stuff. And

314
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,088
I think partly also discovering the deep history

315
00:19:20,144 --> 00:19:23,660
of wine in Armenia attracted it to me.

316
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,072
And yeah, that paired with my tourism business

317
00:19:28,216 --> 00:19:31,952
means that it was a sphere I had to get into. And

318
00:19:31,976 --> 00:19:34,860
then once I started, I just got totally hooked.

319
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,376
It's funny, I have to tell you this, like, you've probably heard

320
00:19:39,408 --> 00:19:43,180
stories like this before. A few months ago, we were

321
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,408
finally putting together like a five year budget for the business and I

322
00:19:47,424 --> 00:19:50,904
was seeing based on the production that we were planning on

323
00:19:51,032 --> 00:19:54,872
how much investment it was going to take. And I walked out of

324
00:19:54,896 --> 00:19:57,340
that meeting just crushed. I was like,

325
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,288
that's an old story. Are you kidding? Well, so then

326
00:20:02,344 --> 00:20:05,984
later in the afternoon, I have a second

327
00:20:06,032 --> 00:20:09,856
meeting about wine, where we're tasting the wines that we just made our

328
00:20:09,888 --> 00:20:13,620
first production from our vineyards this year. And

329
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,808
I tasted the wines, I got so excited, I

330
00:20:17,864 --> 00:20:21,320
totally forgot the pain of the investment. And I keep

331
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,120
analogizing it to what I understand happens to women when they give birth.

332
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,832
You know, like it's extremely painful and they hold the

333
00:20:28,856 --> 00:20:32,592
baby for five minutes and suddenly they forget all the pain. Wow. And

334
00:20:32,616 --> 00:20:36,412
that's exactly what, what it's like. And it just keeps. It

335
00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:39,000
is irresistible. It grabs hold of you.

336
00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:45,036
Also, the conditions here are so good for

337
00:20:45,068 --> 00:20:48,532
making wine. I mean, we have french partners from

338
00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:52,012
Alsace advising us on everything.

339
00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:55,940
And they got attracted to Armenia

340
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:58,916
because of the unique conditions and also because very

341
00:20:59,068 --> 00:21:02,866
particularly with global warming, the whole

342
00:21:02,898 --> 00:21:06,234
wine world is in panic about what's going to happen as

343
00:21:06,362 --> 00:21:09,914
climate changes. And here you come to Armenia

344
00:21:09,962 --> 00:21:13,706
and somebody told me the highest vineyards in Europe are in

345
00:21:13,738 --> 00:21:17,226
Italy at like 450 meters or something.

346
00:21:17,418 --> 00:21:21,114
And you come to Armenia and our base is 1000 meters and then

347
00:21:21,162 --> 00:21:24,850
our vineyards are at twelve to 1300. So these

348
00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:28,146
guys are looking at it and saying this is the place of the future for

349
00:21:28,178 --> 00:21:32,012
wine. So all of that, I mean, it just seemed like a great

350
00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:35,540
place to put more money than you ever wanted to put into

351
00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:39,116
it, spend more money. The old adage of the wine

352
00:21:39,148 --> 00:21:42,892
business. But I think it's a fascinating concept that you just

353
00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:46,532
said it, which is the future of the wine business. But it's also been the

354
00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:50,188
freaking historical part of the wine business. You're building a hotel near

355
00:21:50,284 --> 00:21:53,716
God of knee cave and it even goes further back than that. So

356
00:21:53,748 --> 00:21:57,006
here's. So I was trying to pigeonhole the

357
00:21:57,038 --> 00:22:00,318
concept. You talk about the new world, Australia, New Zealand,

358
00:22:00,374 --> 00:22:04,070
America, South America, call them new world wines and they have

359
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:08,046
certain privileges because of that, because they can

360
00:22:08,078 --> 00:22:10,918
do whatever they want. The French will come to California and say, wow, I get

361
00:22:10,934 --> 00:22:13,374
to grow whatever I want whenever I want. I don't have to worry about, you

362
00:22:13,382 --> 00:22:16,838
know, my local traditions. And here in

363
00:22:16,854 --> 00:22:20,566
Armenia, you know, is it new world or old world? Here it's new world

364
00:22:20,598 --> 00:22:24,222
in that it's kind of starting from scratch because the soviets interrupted it

365
00:22:24,246 --> 00:22:27,990
all. But it's old world and I've been doing it for 11,000

366
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:31,910
years. That seems to be the romantic part of this. Yeah,

367
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:35,078
absolutely. The part that said to you, I don't care how much money I spent

368
00:22:35,094 --> 00:22:38,846
on this bottle, it's fabulous, right? So the bottle

369
00:22:38,878 --> 00:22:42,250
I saw at Invino was your first

370
00:22:43,030 --> 00:22:46,470
self vintage or did you make wine from somebody else's grapes for the first?

371
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:50,386
Yes, that's what this is. So yeah.

372
00:22:50,558 --> 00:22:54,130
Yes, Arnie from old Vines. And it's quite

373
00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:57,762
nice. Like 6000 year old vines, old vines like

374
00:22:57,906 --> 00:23:01,186
Noah's vines, maybe even older than that. That's

375
00:23:01,218 --> 00:23:05,018
fascinating Ottany, at least when

376
00:23:05,034 --> 00:23:08,802
it came to what I've seen in Socal, obviously

377
00:23:08,826 --> 00:23:11,870
a hotbed of wine and lots of brands there.

378
00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:15,590
And I just had this conversation with Vayakashkarian.

379
00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:20,708
I asked the question, can Adani make world class

380
00:23:20,764 --> 00:23:24,492
wine? Can it do that? And are we there yet? He says we're not there

381
00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:28,000
yet, but you can do it structurally, the grape,

382
00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:32,000
the skin, the acids, all the things it has going for it. But

383
00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:36,700
it takes many generations to do that. Are you consider yourself a steward

384
00:23:36,740 --> 00:23:39,508
of the land in this case and that you're going to hand this off? Oh

385
00:23:39,524 --> 00:23:43,214
yeah. To the next group, yeah. And we're doing

386
00:23:43,262 --> 00:23:46,974
biodynamic farming there. So it's really

387
00:23:47,022 --> 00:23:50,758
the ultimate like stewardship. My partners

388
00:23:50,814 --> 00:23:54,478
in France are very deeply into it and we've sort of drank the

389
00:23:54,494 --> 00:23:58,334
Kool aid along with them. So, yeah, it is very

390
00:23:58,382 --> 00:24:01,942
much about stewardship. And I mean, you know, I'm sure most people

391
00:24:02,046 --> 00:24:05,238
realize that when you go into the wine business you should have next

392
00:24:05,294 --> 00:24:08,900
generations to follow in your footsteps. I

393
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:12,436
won't have my own, but I will definitely see that it gets

394
00:24:12,468 --> 00:24:15,996
passed on. You know, the question I have of like you on the Napa

395
00:24:16,028 --> 00:24:19,772
Valley, you can go buy if you have enough money, you go buy that lifestyle

396
00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:22,404
and you can create things. You probably won't make any money but you're not going

397
00:24:22,412 --> 00:24:26,132
to care because you have so much money to start with, right? But,

398
00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:29,724
you know, the old school families like the Corley's and the Barrett's and those

399
00:24:29,772 --> 00:24:33,028
families that were there early on that paid for their land a long time ago

400
00:24:33,164 --> 00:24:36,444
can make money doing it. And I asked the question not that long ago

401
00:24:36,492 --> 00:24:40,116
to a winemaker here, and I said, are

402
00:24:40,148 --> 00:24:43,600
those days still available to anybody to buy a piece of land?

403
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:48,532
Santa and I bought 60 acres in Paso Robles years ago and

404
00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:51,284
we were going to plant it, but planting it was four times the cost of

405
00:24:51,292 --> 00:24:54,400
the land and we weren't willing to invest in that. So

406
00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:58,700
does that opportunity exist to build a brand

407
00:24:58,780 --> 00:25:01,660
around, what, a shelf price of, let's say, $20

408
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,944
and have margin in there? I don't know. The cost

409
00:25:06,992 --> 00:25:10,776
of production here is pretty high, at least if you want to do it

410
00:25:10,808 --> 00:25:14,300
the right way, with low production of your fields and everything.

411
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,968
And I don't know. I mean, it's an odd economy

412
00:25:19,064 --> 00:25:22,304
because, in a way, a lot of things here are relatively

413
00:25:22,352 --> 00:25:26,192
expensive. I think our challenge here is going to be that we have

414
00:25:26,216 --> 00:25:29,540
to make wines that are up to the price level that we're.

415
00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:34,324
That we're stuck with. Yeah, well, biodynamics, not the

416
00:25:34,332 --> 00:25:38,140
least expensive way to do things. Yeah, yeah. But you chose

417
00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:41,972
that. You know, here's irony, I think, of biodynamic

418
00:25:41,996 --> 00:25:45,652
and organic farming is that it always was at some point,

419
00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:49,140
right? I mean, the monks in Burgundy weren't. They were

420
00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:52,996
obviously organic, maybe not biodynamic, but they were

421
00:25:53,028 --> 00:25:56,696
organic. And up until maybe when, you know, post war, when

422
00:25:56,728 --> 00:25:59,976
the Germans invented copper sulfate, I mean, the French

423
00:26:00,128 --> 00:26:03,696
that, you know, pretty much natural. Really? I mean, I hate that word,

424
00:26:03,728 --> 00:26:07,472
but. And then we invent all this stuff and then we

425
00:26:07,496 --> 00:26:11,248
pull it away and we go, look how great we are. Right? Exactly. It

426
00:26:11,264 --> 00:26:14,300
doesn't make any sense to me. It's just going back in time, actually.

427
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,816
Exactly. And I don't think it's an excuse to create wines

428
00:26:18,848 --> 00:26:21,976
that taste like Kombucha or something, because I think a lot of these

429
00:26:22,128 --> 00:26:25,872
brands taste like rustic. You know, they don't

430
00:26:25,896 --> 00:26:29,592
need to taste rustic. They can still be very refined. So the Alsatian winemakers

431
00:26:29,616 --> 00:26:33,020
there, they came here and they thought this was

432
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,544
pretty cool, huh? They got really excited when they came here. Really? Yeah. And

433
00:26:37,552 --> 00:26:41,392
how'd you find them in the first place? Actually, they came, I think

434
00:26:41,536 --> 00:26:45,104
it's a father and two sons, and each

435
00:26:45,192 --> 00:26:48,896
father's the agronomist. One son is the winemaker and the other

436
00:26:48,928 --> 00:26:52,178
is the marketing guy. And father came here on an

437
00:26:52,194 --> 00:26:56,002
exploratory trip that I think the government had organized and

438
00:26:56,026 --> 00:26:59,858
maybe the french government was involved. He was here with a group and I

439
00:26:59,874 --> 00:27:03,146
think he was the only one of the group that just said, wow, I got

440
00:27:03,178 --> 00:27:06,954
to do something here. Yeah. And then we got introduced to him. Really

441
00:27:07,002 --> 00:27:10,570
had good chemistry and. Yeah, well, Michele Rolan

442
00:27:10,650 --> 00:27:14,070
has been here, Paul Hobbes been here. I mean, there's some pretty amazing people

443
00:27:14,570 --> 00:27:18,228
consulting here. And I just, again, I go back to this idea.

444
00:27:18,284 --> 00:27:21,884
The Adonis I've tasted in California, they're okay, they're

445
00:27:21,932 --> 00:27:25,444
palatable wines, they're solid. But I'm

446
00:27:25,492 --> 00:27:29,040
wondering about their longevity. I'm wondering about their acid content. I'm wondering,

447
00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:33,108
I guess only time will tell, but I think most people agree that

448
00:27:33,124 --> 00:27:36,740
it has the potential. I mean, in 2006, you couldn't drink

449
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:40,508
anything. It was terrible. Yeah. And

450
00:27:40,564 --> 00:27:44,124
I mean, the worst was like, after independence, you

451
00:27:44,172 --> 00:27:47,832
had all these wines on the shelf and occasionally you'd get

452
00:27:47,856 --> 00:27:51,272
a bottle that was really good and you'd go back and buy a second one

453
00:27:51,296 --> 00:27:54,760
and it was undrinkable, you know, they just had no quality control

454
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,220
whatsoever. But now it's.

455
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,304
I think the Soviets interrupted not only the cultural growth

456
00:28:02,352 --> 00:28:05,584
of the economy because this place looks very

457
00:28:05,632 --> 00:28:09,424
european. I did a sizzlery. I'm going to send it to you.

458
00:28:09,552 --> 00:28:12,648
On the

459
00:28:12,664 --> 00:28:16,168
Azerbaijan soldiers taking the four wineries out of

460
00:28:16,184 --> 00:28:19,704
Artsakh and got him back to Sarin's. A good friend of mine, I did

461
00:28:19,832 --> 00:28:23,608
the capellian family, I haven't spoken to the other two. And when

462
00:28:23,624 --> 00:28:26,100
I did that, I started to research why

463
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,620
wineries were a spoil of war. Why would this happen?

464
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,720
And the Germans, the Prussians destroyed vineyards

465
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,552
as they went through France. But the Germane, the Nazis not

466
00:28:39,576 --> 00:28:43,240
only kept them, they stole all the wine. And then

467
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,112
by doing that, I started looking at videos of downtown Yadavan and, whoa, this

468
00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:50,520
is not the place that we visited in 2006.

469
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,232
Right. And wine being part of this culture and the

470
00:28:54,376 --> 00:28:58,112
story behind it in Vino was fascinating to me that we decided to do

471
00:28:58,136 --> 00:29:01,912
this. So what's your ultimate goal with it? You're gonna have more than odd

472
00:29:01,936 --> 00:29:03,100
and e you're gonna have.

473
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:09,302
Yeah, we've already, we're planting, I think we've planted

474
00:29:09,366 --> 00:29:12,450
five or six grapes already and

475
00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:15,330
I own about 36. Ha.

476
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:20,414
It's actually on a plateau. Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, and

477
00:29:20,582 --> 00:29:23,770
by the way, I never knew until we started planting,

478
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:28,038
like, how big a hectare of vines is. You sit around and you

479
00:29:28,054 --> 00:29:31,646
go. Because the original plan was

480
00:29:31,718 --> 00:29:35,214
to start with 14. When I saw it actually

481
00:29:35,302 --> 00:29:38,878
planted, I was like, really? It's

482
00:29:38,934 --> 00:29:42,250
like all that, I have to. Walk all the way out there.

483
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:47,414
But I think as we go, I mean, I think we have 9

484
00:29:47,502 --> 00:29:51,310
rna, two of Oskahat, and two or

485
00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:54,342
three more of other grapes. And I think

486
00:29:54,526 --> 00:29:58,326
clearly, as we do more planting, we're going to go

487
00:29:58,358 --> 00:30:01,812
into more grapes. And Vaheb may have talked to you

488
00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,356
about just, he's been engaged in trying to

489
00:30:05,388 --> 00:30:08,836
recover old grapes that have sort of been lost or

490
00:30:08,868 --> 00:30:12,364
abandoned. And I'm sure that we have a lot of genetic

491
00:30:12,412 --> 00:30:15,796
material here that's going to be really interesting to

492
00:30:15,828 --> 00:30:19,228
revive. And I don't know,

493
00:30:19,244 --> 00:30:22,660
maybe most of us, I think, believe

494
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:26,466
in armenian varietals, but some people

495
00:30:26,538 --> 00:30:30,242
are here planting foreign ones and

496
00:30:30,306 --> 00:30:33,834
doing really well at it, so. Well, we were at Armas.

497
00:30:33,922 --> 00:30:37,666
Victoria's a good friend, and she said, yeah, some oligarch just bought

498
00:30:37,698 --> 00:30:41,218
a bunch of hectares next to her, and they're only planting french varietals.

499
00:30:41,394 --> 00:30:44,390
And so this is the business of wine. Right. So

500
00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:48,546
I actually thought when we first came here in 2006, that Ottomany wasn't even a

501
00:30:48,578 --> 00:30:51,740
Vidis vine for a grape because it was so bad. I thought it was just

502
00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:55,268
they're trying to make wine out of non wine grape. Oh, gosh. That's not

503
00:30:55,404 --> 00:30:58,964
the case, obviously. I was surprised to read that it was.

504
00:30:59,092 --> 00:31:02,772
Yeah. But then the marketing of wine and the

505
00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:05,996
business of wine is a whole different part of the romance, and it's not romantic,

506
00:31:06,028 --> 00:31:09,828
and it's very difficult. And so, yeah, french varietals, when you

507
00:31:09,844 --> 00:31:13,612
put Merlot on a bottle, is probably going to be more attractive to most

508
00:31:13,636 --> 00:31:17,400
buyers than not any. But I will say there was a brand years ago,

509
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,860
came through the office. It was, I think it was moldavian,

510
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,408
something like that. Bulgarian Moldavian. It was a merlot. So they put Merlot on the

511
00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:30,672
label, which is a very american thing to do. And it was called Hickory

512
00:31:30,736 --> 00:31:34,448
Ridge. Yeah. Really? Because they wanted

513
00:31:34,464 --> 00:31:38,136
to name it something that Americans might. It

514
00:31:38,168 --> 00:31:41,220
didn't do. Well, I always thought that was family. So.

515
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,288
Sounds like based on expression that, yeah, no, we're going to stick with the

516
00:31:45,304 --> 00:31:49,072
armenian varietals. We're going to try and develop that worldwide, get people

517
00:31:49,136 --> 00:31:52,832
used to what we're doing. Yeah. I mean, my whole reason to be here

518
00:31:52,856 --> 00:31:56,040
is not to make money in this country. I mean, I like to make money

519
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,672
at what I do, but the main thing is to really, it's cultural

520
00:31:59,736 --> 00:32:03,552
revival. It's revival of the nation, and that's our heritage.

521
00:32:03,616 --> 00:32:07,056
So that's what I'm interested in. So you

522
00:32:07,088 --> 00:32:09,780
think in the short term,

523
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:15,534
politically, what's. I don't want to get peel that back too far. It's not a

524
00:32:15,542 --> 00:32:19,358
political show, but you have a lot of investment in all

525
00:32:19,374 --> 00:32:22,850
of this. And to see what's going on in the north,

526
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:27,966
how the government's reacting to that. We have a chance to save all

527
00:32:27,998 --> 00:32:31,502
this and make sure it pursues. And I know the diaspora is behind it

528
00:32:31,526 --> 00:32:34,958
all. Armenia?

529
00:32:35,014 --> 00:32:38,830
Yes, we're talking about Armenia. I'm trying to dance around the subject

530
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:42,428
without being too sensitive. Well, I can just say, I

531
00:32:42,444 --> 00:32:46,196
mean, everybody here is constantly aware of the risks

532
00:32:46,228 --> 00:32:49,868
that we're facing. And if we any

533
00:32:49,924 --> 00:32:53,548
day, forget it, our neighbors will remind us of the risks the next

534
00:32:53,604 --> 00:32:56,040
day. But

535
00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:01,116
when you're here and working and living in the environment, the first thing

536
00:33:01,148 --> 00:33:04,804
is, part of the problem is you walk out onto the street every

537
00:33:04,852 --> 00:33:08,462
day and it feels so good here. It's hard to imagine that

538
00:33:08,486 --> 00:33:11,410
we're under siege from our neighbors.

539
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:16,350
And that's a real source of hope, because it's really. The

540
00:33:16,390 --> 00:33:20,046
country's on a roll. The lifestyle couldn't be better. I have all

541
00:33:20,078 --> 00:33:23,798
kinds of friends who have moved here along with me from other places,

542
00:33:23,854 --> 00:33:26,730
and we all just think this is priceless.

543
00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:33,654
That's what it takes. That's what it takes. We were in

544
00:33:33,662 --> 00:33:37,450
a van yesterday with a woman who went through the same conversation.

545
00:33:37,790 --> 00:33:41,342
And the woman, Miriam, is the same. She came

546
00:33:41,366 --> 00:33:44,758
here, you know, I think they opened ten years ago, but she came as a

547
00:33:44,774 --> 00:33:48,334
teenager and she was complaining to her mother, and now she's like no other. And

548
00:33:48,342 --> 00:33:51,814
she came from Granada Hills. Really? Yeah. Taj Mahal, right? I mean.

549
00:33:51,902 --> 00:33:55,670
Yep, yep, yep. It's fascinating because my brother

550
00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:58,730
in law, Gregg Noel, has always

551
00:33:59,290 --> 00:34:02,986
pitch that idea. And my wife and I didn't see it the first

552
00:34:03,018 --> 00:34:05,890
time here, but we see it now. We understand this. So you haven't been here

553
00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:09,298
since 2006? No. Oh, man. Well, now you

554
00:34:09,314 --> 00:34:13,138
shot. I'm not going to point

555
00:34:13,194 --> 00:34:17,010
any fingers. But you're gonna anyway.

556
00:34:17,130 --> 00:34:20,510
Yeah, but. Well,

557
00:34:21,130 --> 00:34:24,806
we're. And Connor wanted to come and he hadn't seen him.

558
00:34:24,898 --> 00:34:28,490
I don't think Sarah had come here on. My oldest daughter had come on

559
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:32,470
a diverted greek school

560
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:36,358
thing, and then the Greek, I guess there was so dangerously diverted her here, and

561
00:34:36,374 --> 00:34:39,646
then she had an experience. I think it was 2010 or something. I don't remember

562
00:34:39,678 --> 00:34:43,302
that. But for sure. We'll be back. In fact, the other night, we were

563
00:34:43,326 --> 00:34:47,086
at the bird cage. You know this bar?

564
00:34:47,158 --> 00:34:50,438
No, sorry. Well, they might start pointing to faking one

565
00:34:50,494 --> 00:34:53,962
day. Okay. And I looked at Al

566
00:34:53,986 --> 00:34:57,666
Kabalov, my friend. I said, I don't feel like I'm in, what

567
00:34:57,738 --> 00:35:01,394
was Armenia. I feel like I'm part of Europe. It could be in Paris. I

568
00:35:01,402 --> 00:35:05,218
could be anywhere. No kidding. Not that you want to emulate that.

569
00:35:05,314 --> 00:35:08,870
Yeah. But the question I had

570
00:35:10,450 --> 00:35:12,762
to, a lot of people on the bus with us, I think I just said

571
00:35:12,786 --> 00:35:16,522
this, like, were you, are we inspired to fix it, or we resolved to think

572
00:35:16,546 --> 00:35:19,966
it's never going to change. And I think you can see that what you're

573
00:35:19,998 --> 00:35:23,838
doing is making a change. How's the occupancy of the

574
00:35:23,854 --> 00:35:27,558
hotels, for instance? Oh, well, it's one of the surprise

575
00:35:27,614 --> 00:35:31,438
benefits of the Ukraine invasion, you know, I

576
00:35:31,454 --> 00:35:35,090
mean, it's really been a boost for tourism here,

577
00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:39,670
fortunately. I mean, until recently, the european tourism that

578
00:35:39,710 --> 00:35:43,430
stopped during COVID hadn't recovered. And we were really trying

579
00:35:43,470 --> 00:35:46,850
to understand it, but it seems like it's also growing back.

580
00:35:47,450 --> 00:35:50,498
Occupancy is good. Yeah. We're just

581
00:35:50,634 --> 00:35:54,402
wondering if and when the war ends, what it's gonna, you know, what

582
00:35:54,426 --> 00:35:57,870
it's gonna mean. Because a lot of the, probably half the

583
00:35:58,250 --> 00:36:01,882
guests here are russian. They were in the elevator this

584
00:36:01,906 --> 00:36:05,554
morning. Yeah. But you can imagine

585
00:36:05,602 --> 00:36:09,402
that if somebody comes, experiences this, realizes this is the

586
00:36:09,426 --> 00:36:12,906
playground of sorts, a different culture that they're not used to, that they'll come

587
00:36:12,938 --> 00:36:16,646
back. Absolutely. And interestingly, I

588
00:36:16,678 --> 00:36:20,462
met a group of jewish immigrates from Russia

589
00:36:20,526 --> 00:36:24,050
who had come here last week, and

590
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:28,190
one of them, kind of the leader of the group said, I came from

591
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:31,806
Russia. I landed here, I got my papers to go to

592
00:36:31,838 --> 00:36:35,254
Israel, and I went to Israel, and I went to another, some

593
00:36:35,302 --> 00:36:38,950
european country, and I said, I want to come back to Armenia.

594
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:42,786
This is the best lifestyle I can find. Yeah. And they all

595
00:36:42,818 --> 00:36:46,594
felt that way. So I can't say it's true for every Russian

596
00:36:46,642 --> 00:36:50,226
that's here, but it really, I mean, you can

597
00:36:50,258 --> 00:36:53,770
imagine, you know, in a country where you've got the government breathing down your neck

598
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:57,370
every day in Russia, that you come here, whatever else you can

599
00:36:57,410 --> 00:37:01,162
complain about here you are really free to say what you want to do, what

600
00:37:01,186 --> 00:37:04,474
you want within the laws. It's a very light

601
00:37:04,562 --> 00:37:07,750
existence. Yeah. Very western

602
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,608
concept. Very, very. Exactly. So what do we do with all

603
00:37:11,624 --> 00:37:15,152
these empty soviet buildings that are

604
00:37:15,176 --> 00:37:18,432
just dying on the vine out there to change the

605
00:37:18,456 --> 00:37:22,176
countryside, change the drive, which prompted the question I asked

606
00:37:22,208 --> 00:37:25,944
you. But, I mean, there's looked like a tale of two cities. Oh,

607
00:37:26,032 --> 00:37:29,416
yeah. You mean in the regions. Yeah, yeah. I don't

608
00:37:29,448 --> 00:37:33,120
know. A friend of mine years ago had the idea that they should have, like,

609
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,954
a worksite WPA project here to put people

610
00:37:37,002 --> 00:37:40,690
to work tearing down ugly stuff. Yeah. No, I mean.

611
00:37:40,810 --> 00:37:44,586
Right, because you drive out there and you're going, wow, this.

612
00:37:44,698 --> 00:37:48,546
We went to the other direction, to a camp, a youth camp.

613
00:37:48,698 --> 00:37:52,370
Not like the nazi youth camp. Good. Not

614
00:37:52,410 --> 00:37:56,202
here. And fascinated by some of the

615
00:37:56,266 --> 00:37:59,658
modern construction and equality and the fit and fish, the western fit and

616
00:37:59,674 --> 00:38:03,442
finish. And then next to this burned out

617
00:38:03,466 --> 00:38:07,170
building, so to speak. Yeah, it's a bit of a problem. I mean, of course,

618
00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:10,866
the hope is these things will get repurposed to the extent that they're

619
00:38:11,018 --> 00:38:13,990
soundly constructed, but, yeah.

620
00:38:14,330 --> 00:38:17,578
So back to the wine thing for a second. You brought us something with Vahe

621
00:38:17,594 --> 00:38:21,066
that I think is very important. And that is, I read this book

622
00:38:21,098 --> 00:38:24,626
called, I think, medieval wine. Wine in the medieval

623
00:38:24,778 --> 00:38:28,346
Armenia goes way back. It's

624
00:38:28,378 --> 00:38:31,490
got probably 100 different

625
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:35,110
varietals listed in pictures of them. Right.

626
00:38:35,530 --> 00:38:39,282
And I'm fascinated by the italian varietals, particularly the

627
00:38:39,306 --> 00:38:42,082
whites. I think one of the best wines in the world as far as white

628
00:38:42,106 --> 00:38:45,946
wine is concerned. And a lot of that's going on in Umbria, where

629
00:38:45,978 --> 00:38:49,682
they're finding odd vines and their resurrection, the DNA of these

630
00:38:49,746 --> 00:38:53,410
interesting varietals and modeling them, and they're really quite

631
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:57,390
good. Complex, interesting. How's this thing

632
00:38:57,430 --> 00:39:01,182
going? Are you aware of what Vaheg Kuzgarn has been doing with them? And

633
00:39:01,246 --> 00:39:04,850
have we found anything? Yeah, I mean, constantly finding.

634
00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:09,450
I mean, the concept. You can imagine it's really

635
00:39:10,070 --> 00:39:13,790
intriguing and exciting, this idea of rediscovering, because, like you said,

636
00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:17,130
when, you know, there were 100 varietals at that time,

637
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,832
there must be some of them that are just spectacular and different.

638
00:39:20,936 --> 00:39:24,376
And so it's kind of

639
00:39:24,408 --> 00:39:28,176
like the attraction of detective work.

640
00:39:28,288 --> 00:39:31,660
You want to get in there and dig around and see what there is. So

641
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,856
I don't know. I'm not up on Vah's work lately. I know

642
00:39:35,888 --> 00:39:39,656
other people have taken up the same thing. I mean, they're, again, among those

643
00:39:39,688 --> 00:39:42,940
of us who really want to help revive armenian winemaking.

644
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:47,314
Definitely an interest in finding new grapes. I

645
00:39:47,322 --> 00:39:50,898
mean, we've already been exploring ones that are

646
00:39:50,954 --> 00:39:54,706
already planted because apparently there are

647
00:39:54,738 --> 00:39:57,834
people who have small

648
00:39:57,962 --> 00:40:01,634
plots around the country that are from I don't know how

649
00:40:01,682 --> 00:40:05,290
long ago, and they don't even know what the grape is, but it's something

650
00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:09,066
different. And. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, it is. That's very

651
00:40:09,098 --> 00:40:12,712
cool. The concept of what grows together goes together. The

652
00:40:12,736 --> 00:40:16,144
concept of natural selection of grapes, particularly vitis vinifera,

653
00:40:16,192 --> 00:40:19,856
in various regions of the world for a reason. My brother in law

654
00:40:19,888 --> 00:40:23,728
insists that we bring oddity to Napa Valley. And, you know, you know, in the

655
00:40:23,744 --> 00:40:27,568
wine business you don't typically do that. You know, you run some,

656
00:40:27,624 --> 00:40:31,456
especially when. Nobody'S heard of it. Exactly. And you try to determine whether

657
00:40:31,488 --> 00:40:34,560
it's a good fit. You know, you're talking about

658
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,890
altitudes. Very important in the wine world in

659
00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:42,182
Malbec. I talked about this earlier with Vahe, but, you know, they're

660
00:40:42,246 --> 00:40:45,890
experimenting with Malbec at like 5000ft and

661
00:40:46,350 --> 00:40:49,830
they're coming up with some pretty interesting wines. And there's one

662
00:40:49,870 --> 00:40:52,810
brand from a french family, Arnot,

663
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:55,566
a thousand feet, 20, 00, 30, 00,

664
00:40:55,638 --> 00:40:58,890
50. So you can.

665
00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:03,548
They're bottling each level separately and the wines are different. You can

666
00:41:03,564 --> 00:41:07,356
say different, structurally different. And the character is different. It's really fascinating

667
00:41:07,388 --> 00:41:11,180
to watch. And I always wonder what the end game is like.

668
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:14,360
I asked a lot of winemakers, what is the end game? You're trying to

669
00:41:14,780 --> 00:41:18,460
produce the best thing you can based on what you've got. Are you trying

670
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:22,276
to express this district best you can? What is the end

671
00:41:22,308 --> 00:41:26,108
game? Good question as to all the refinement and all

672
00:41:26,164 --> 00:41:29,930
this colonial selection. All the. And I think

673
00:41:30,990 --> 00:41:34,062
Vahe and I kind of came with the conclusion that it really is. I got

674
00:41:34,086 --> 00:41:37,770
this word, I haven't used this word. I got it from a bulgarian song

675
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:41,958
and she's used the word typicity. And I don't mean typicity

676
00:41:42,014 --> 00:41:45,742
in the typical of. I mean typicity in that

677
00:41:45,766 --> 00:41:48,930
it's representative, that it's representing

678
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:53,190
where your vineyards are. And you can take

679
00:41:53,230 --> 00:41:56,110
your bottle of toufe and bring it to LA and put it on the table

680
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:59,496
and say, this is who I am. This is what I was.

681
00:41:59,648 --> 00:42:03,420
Wow. And I think that's the end game.

682
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,768
Or you just want to make as much money as you can. No kidding. I

683
00:42:07,784 --> 00:42:11,520
know you already said that. Yeah. It's

684
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,328
fascinating. I mean, I think it's part of this unexplainable

685
00:42:15,384 --> 00:42:18,700
attraction of wine. You're just always in pursuit of something

686
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:23,768
and it feels great when you find it, even though it doesn't necessarily

687
00:42:23,824 --> 00:42:27,246
translate into dollars. It won't. Yeah, it

688
00:42:27,278 --> 00:42:31,038
won't. Right. But it's. You

689
00:42:31,054 --> 00:42:34,662
just nailed it on the head. The question I asked many winemakers is I don't

690
00:42:34,686 --> 00:42:38,438
get a direct answer because there isn't one. But what is it about

691
00:42:38,494 --> 00:42:42,250
wine? You don't feel like this when you drink bourbon.

692
00:42:42,670 --> 00:42:46,006
You don't feel, you know, people chase scotches and things, but you don't feel this

693
00:42:46,038 --> 00:42:49,878
way, you don't feel this way about beer. And,

694
00:42:49,894 --> 00:42:53,718
in fact, beer. The brewmaster's job is to make sure it

695
00:42:53,734 --> 00:42:57,450
tastes the same. But wine makes you think. Somehow

696
00:42:58,150 --> 00:43:01,290
I wonder if it's partly. I was out in

697
00:43:02,110 --> 00:43:05,558
Napa and Sonoma last year, a couple years ago

698
00:43:05,694 --> 00:43:09,090
with your stuff. I remember

699
00:43:09,590 --> 00:43:13,398
I had a day with a winemaker in

700
00:43:13,414 --> 00:43:16,958
a small vineyard, and we were talking about it, and I'm still really new to

701
00:43:16,974 --> 00:43:20,582
wine, so it was the first time that I understood

702
00:43:20,646 --> 00:43:24,326
how many different variables there are that go into making a wine

703
00:43:24,358 --> 00:43:28,078
what it is. And, I mean, they're like thousands. And they

704
00:43:28,094 --> 00:43:31,766
were telling me, you know, they were saying, like, we all really cooperate with each

705
00:43:31,798 --> 00:43:35,398
other out here. We don't mind giving away our secrets and whatever.

706
00:43:35,574 --> 00:43:39,214
And I did some questioning, and I understood that part of the reason

707
00:43:39,262 --> 00:43:43,046
why they're not possessive is that there's so many variables. He can

708
00:43:43,078 --> 00:43:46,798
tell the guy next to him exactly what he's doing, and that guy's going to

709
00:43:46,814 --> 00:43:50,652
come up with a different product. And so I think that's part

710
00:43:50,676 --> 00:43:54,500
of the fascination of wine, is dealing with this infinite variety

711
00:43:54,660 --> 00:43:57,920
of variables. Yeah,

712
00:43:58,820 --> 00:44:02,636
the permutations are endless. Exactly. And so do we

713
00:44:02,668 --> 00:44:05,492
have that here? Do we have that in Armenia where you're sharing these secrets and

714
00:44:05,516 --> 00:44:09,292
sharing that secrets, sharing these methodologies? Do we have

715
00:44:09,316 --> 00:44:13,116
enough of them to understand the differences? I think there is a community here that

716
00:44:13,148 --> 00:44:16,794
does share a lot of. Yeah, I think my winemaker and some of her

717
00:44:16,842 --> 00:44:20,426
contemporaries are pretty open with each

718
00:44:20,458 --> 00:44:24,082
other. Did you say her? Of course. Wow.

719
00:44:24,266 --> 00:44:27,714
This is a big subject. I always hire women, if I can, in this

720
00:44:27,762 --> 00:44:31,050
country, especially some of the. Women we've seen around

721
00:44:31,090 --> 00:44:34,866
here. But no, I'd be sarcastic because women in wine is a huge

722
00:44:34,898 --> 00:44:38,298
subject right now. Oh, really? A lot of wonderful winemakers on my show recently that

723
00:44:38,314 --> 00:44:42,074
were women. And in America, the idea of a female

724
00:44:42,122 --> 00:44:45,386
winemaker is rather prevalent. And there's, I think,

725
00:44:45,418 --> 00:44:49,058
25% of the winemakers in California are women. Now,

726
00:44:49,114 --> 00:44:52,450
the energy's put in executive roles.

727
00:44:52,610 --> 00:44:56,202
Now, small wineries don't have executive roles. Sometimes a winemaker is the

728
00:44:56,226 --> 00:44:59,630
executive, but they're trying to now

729
00:45:00,090 --> 00:45:03,482
get the population at the higher levels of

730
00:45:03,666 --> 00:45:07,476
management of the winery to be women as well. But that's

731
00:45:07,548 --> 00:45:11,356
really fascinating that, a, she's alsatian, and b, it's a woman.

732
00:45:11,428 --> 00:45:14,708
No, she's armenian. Oh, she's armenian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The

733
00:45:14,724 --> 00:45:18,548
also. That's right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Where

734
00:45:18,564 --> 00:45:21,652
does she get educated? Partly here and partly in

735
00:45:21,676 --> 00:45:25,268
Germany. Really? Yeah, yeah. And she.

736
00:45:25,324 --> 00:45:28,440
Her whole fascination was

737
00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:32,726
to do what you're doing. Bring. Get the industry. I don't

738
00:45:32,758 --> 00:45:36,182
know how she came to it because she was a

739
00:45:36,206 --> 00:45:39,342
human relay. An HR

740
00:45:39,406 --> 00:45:42,530
specialist for that, of course. And I don't know,

741
00:45:43,110 --> 00:45:46,710
but she went to EvN Academy here and got

742
00:45:46,750 --> 00:45:50,222
her basic training, and I guess it just. She really got

743
00:45:50,406 --> 00:45:54,246
hooked. That's really cool. Yeah. I'm very proud. I had an intern,

744
00:45:54,318 --> 00:45:57,882
Lisa Kasabian. She came during last summer, and

745
00:45:57,906 --> 00:46:01,738
she did most of my talking point notes for

746
00:46:01,874 --> 00:46:04,590
upcoming podcasts. And she got so intrigued by

747
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:09,050
the women that she heard speak that she applied to Cornell

748
00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:12,914
and Davis oenology school, and she got accepted to both. Oh, really?

749
00:46:13,002 --> 00:46:16,738
So she's going to Cornell this semester to study wine. She's from

750
00:46:16,794 --> 00:46:20,190
states or from here? From states. Glendale.

751
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,168
We're gonna be kicked out of here soon. Yeah. Well, it's 1230. It's already been

752
00:46:27,184 --> 00:46:30,968
45 minutes. What a great opportunity to meet you and

753
00:46:31,024 --> 00:46:34,640
discuss what you're thinking and doing and the face behind

754
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,500
the legend, behind the carpets, behind the wine now.

755
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,688
Such a joy to meet you. Yeah, me, too. Paul, I'm glad you're on the

756
00:46:42,704 --> 00:46:45,112
show. And we're gonna do it again when we come back out. Cause we will

757
00:46:45,136 --> 00:46:47,780
be coming back out in next month. Right.

758
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,420
We're headed to Paris after this, and we're gonna have

759
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:57,432
dinner with the cladstrups. The cladstrups is fascinating. Couple who

760
00:46:57,496 --> 00:47:01,176
wrote the book wine and war that I found during the. During my

761
00:47:01,208 --> 00:47:04,980
research for the Azerbaijan war. Wow. Wineries. And,

762
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,088
boy, when they talk about the Nazis and what they did. You

763
00:47:09,104 --> 00:47:12,860
know, Hitler had, like, 100,000 bottles in his cellar. He didn't even drink.

764
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,100
But there was a spoil of war, and I thought it was a fascinating conversation.

765
00:47:17,970 --> 00:47:21,418
Look forward to spending more time with you soon. Thanks, Paul. It's a

766
00:47:21,434 --> 00:47:22,590
pleasure. Cheers.

767
00:47:30,890 --> 00:47:34,730
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum Carrion. Don't forget to subscribe,

768
00:47:34,770 --> 00:47:38,586
because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have a

769
00:47:38,618 --> 00:47:40,810
great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.