Jan. 5, 2021

Famed Restaurateur Patrick Terrail of Ma Maison

Ma Maison became the restaurant of the Hollywood elite. Here is how.

Show Notes
Transcript

Patrick Terrail comes from a storied family in the international restaurant scene. The famed Tour D'Argent in Paris was his family; the creation of the George V hotel was his family...and maybe it was destiny that Ma Maison became the restaurant of the Hollywood elite from the early '70's to the early '80s, anyone who was anyone went to Ma Maison. Here the story of Patrick Terrail.

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Carson, Leno,

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Fallon. Now it's

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Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are here in studio and

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we have a very special guest that we're going to introduce in just a moment.

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Wine Talks is available, of course, on Spotify, Pandora, iHeartRadio, and

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wherever you hang out with your podcast. I'm just. I'm

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not sure where to start this, but I'm very honored to have one of the

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great restaurateurs of our time on the show. He's in

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Florida right now. The accolades are too much to mention. So I think

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what's going to happen during this conversation is that the. The accolades

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of what Patrick Terray has done to the

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cuisine in America will just come out in the stories. He was the

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procreate of the Mama's own in Los Angeles from

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1973 to 1985 at the storied

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address of 8368 Melrose Avenue,

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and a cultural icon, a Hollywood

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icon. And I want to start this Mr. Ture with

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I got your book the Taste of Hollywood from.

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Oh, please tell me. Patrick. Patrick. Okay. My

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grandfather is Mr. Terrail. Okay, I'll do that. Thank you.

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Do people say Terrell because of the American accent or do they say it the

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French way? Terai. No, they say Terrai, like in rye

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bread. Oh, there you go. Okay, got it. So I got online and

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I got your book the Taste of Hollywood, the Story of Maison,

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which is an incredible story. But I bought two copies. I bought one for

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our mutual friend Melvin Masters. He was unaware of the book and

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he wanted to read it, so I bought it for him and I kept one

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to read. But the one I received to me is incredible because

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it's got an inscription from you. So I'm not sure what bookstore I

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bought it from, but it says, you're quite an artist. By the way, you have

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some drawings here. Looks like a can and it says

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Victor and it says Ernie's and it says, from

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Maison to the greatest San Francisco host, a wonderful friend.

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That was Victor and Ernie in San Francisco. Yes. And

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so that's funny. He died. Yeah, he died a few years ago, I

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guess. Yeah. So Victor Gotti.

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Yeah. And Ernie's being one of the great institutions of food in

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America. Not Right. It was in San Francisco.

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Yeah. And when I was wanted to get to is this is a

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very French, you know, maybe something from the days of Le

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Pavillon or Lutece. Ernie's was that style of restaurant. It

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was a pavilion of the West Coast. So

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generally it was just. That's the way it was. It was this type of service

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and the type of food and the traditional haute cuisine

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kind of thing. Right. You know my friend

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John Mariani, I'm sure you know him. Yes. The fruit

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critic for Eschwar magazine for many, many years.

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And we were talking that today.

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Le Pavillon, Victor Ernes,

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La Maisonette in Cincinnati,

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all those restaurants, it's over. It's a new era.

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That haute cuisine that those represented. And

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I've had this great conversation with Patrick Q. Who was the Los Angeles

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Times, Los Angeles Magazine food critic for many years

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studying that. But it seems like maison was

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part of the cutting edge change of cuisine in America.

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I don't know about that, but I think that Mommy

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Zone brought something to LA that LA did not have.

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When I started the big restaurants in LA

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with the Italian

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restaurant on Valentino's.

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No, before that. Really? No,

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no, no, no, no. It was on Wilshire

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Boulevard and the name would come

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to me, but there was only two or three great restaurants in LA

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at the time. And we were the first

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restaurant that had a patio.

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Nobody would eat outside until we

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came in. And then the Bistro eventually got

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a patio, but our trick was

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to sit outside and that. That

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idea, which, through your book, we're talking about Provence,

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you're in the south of France. You know, a very typical way to

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dine. Had this conversation with Melvin Masters, since that's where he

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sort of started his career. And you're coming from

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this amazing storied family of restaurateurs.

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I mean, Tour d'argent, you know, one of the greats,

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probably still one of the leading restaurants of the world.

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Did you think that this was something you were going to do when you started

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out as a young person? You were in a sort of,

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you say, a silver spoon life. You were thinking of being

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a naval architect. And you. Yeah, but

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I. I've got you a funny story about that. Yeah.

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I visited the Naval Academy before I went to

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college. Yes. And have

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you ever been to the Naval Academy or to West Point? I've

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not. They eat like this. Oh,

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okay. That's funny. And that's not for

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me. Was that the

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turning point for you? Like, I don't think I want to do this because I'm

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not going to eat that. No. Yeah, that was the turning point. Then I

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went an extra year to school in

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America to learn English,

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and my counselor said, you should go to the

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hotel school at Cornell.

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And I got accepted, it seems.

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I wanted to ask that question because it sounds like to me, based on your

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book, that the teacher there at Riverdale School was quite a mentor

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for you. In other words, he recognized or she recognized that

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there's something else for Patrick Ture to do.

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And it's not going to be a naval architect, it's going to be going into

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the hospitality business. Was that a. Well, I wasn't very good

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at math. Are you?

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Well, that's a, that's a good start then for that. And

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I think that she, the counselor, made the

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right decision. And, and

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besides that, I got a partial

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scholarship. Wow. Now this

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family, you know, Cornell's not an easy school today. It's not, it

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wasn't an easy school to get into back then. And it's hospitality school is known,

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believe. It or not, in those days there

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was only 600 students

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total in the hotel school. Wow.

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There's 150 per class

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for a four year program. And I think two

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out of ten got accepted. That was very

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outer. This is quite special. And because of what your

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accolades at high school or because the Ture family

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was in, you know, I, I, I.

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Did have that such bad grace, you know, don't put me down.

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I didn't know. I wasn't there. Obviously I

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had worked in the hotel restaurant industry when I was young

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boy. I worked with my family

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and obviously I know a lot about food. I

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grew up in it. So I guess I was

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qualified to go to hotel school for sure. And my

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being French didn't hurt. No. And that was your native

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language is French? That's right. And you came to America

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to, and you learned English through, through high school or

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through the means? I learned it through high school. I grew up in

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Greece. I grew up in Athens. Yeah. Okay, so let's, this is what was so

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fascinating about what you've done in your career and how you've moved around and the

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types of cuisine that you've been exposed to.

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And the story of your family's history in the restaurant business

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is pretty amazing. So my daughter's a

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boulanger in New York. She's quite a good baker. She's trained in Paris.

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She went to Alain de Cass School of Pastry in

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Isanjo. Do you think for a young

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entrepreneur, chef or

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restaurateur, that this kind of experience

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is necessary and critical to even think about being in the

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food business? Well, you know, I have a true story about

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that. You know, the food business, whether it's the bakery

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business, the chef business,

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you have to learn like the piano. If you want

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to become a pianist, you have to learn how to play

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classical. That's interesting. Yeah. And you have

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to apprentice. And once you learn how to play classical

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music, then you can become a jazz player.

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But you have to have good

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bases of knowledge and you can only learn

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those through school and

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apprenticeship and then you rely on your own. It's

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such a trying business. And, you know, looking

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through your book, the hours you spent, it's. It consumes

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your life. And I assume, and I'll tell you my little quick story. We

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took our daughter around when she was looking for a savory school to go to

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after she was trained in pastries in Paris and worked. She worked actually

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one of Landa Casa's bakeries. She came to America and she

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decided she wanted to get savory training as well. We went to different schools. It

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seemed to me when we went to this hear the speeches for

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the acceptance into the cooking school, it was almost an escape

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from college for many kids. Like, well, I'm going to go be a. I'm going

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to go be a TV chef and my career will start that

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way. And the understanding, I think, from

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most people that enter school like that is that this is going to take a

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lot of time and a lot of energy and you're going to start at the

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bottom and you're going to work 12 hour days just to get to a point

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where people respect what you're doing. Is that the case?

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Yes, it is. You know, there's a wonderful book out

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called Dirt Dirt by

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Bill Buford. I'll check that out. And

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you can either get an audible or you can buy it.

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It's a writer who writes an

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unbelievable book about being a

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stagier in strength. Wow. And he's

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like 40 years old when he's doing this. It's

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unbelievable. Have your daughter read it and you should read it

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too. I will. So dirt. And it's. So he's a 40 year old

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that starts his stagier at that age. Yeah.

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Wow. Yeah, it's very funny. It's very funny.

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He's a very, very good writer. We will get that. Because

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I just finished Chef's Drugs and Rock and Roll and this is where your name

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popped up, that I was interested in having this conversation because I

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had a conversation with Ken Frank. I've had Joaquim splash out on the show

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and I want to peel back this idea because I

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watch what my daughter's gone through and I watch her get up at three in

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the morning and go bake and prep for food, you

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know, clean the kitchen at Six o'clock at night and come home and.

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And it just takes passion to do this.

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And so that's the question for you is like this passion. You had to have

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it. Was it because you think that your family was in it? Tour

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d'argent, part of the family, the George. I think it's

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either inbred. Either you like it or you

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don't. And it's funny, you know, I didn't get married

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till I was 55. Yeah. And

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Ed McMahon was your best man, so. Yeah,

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but. And the reason I didn't get

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married, I was married to my restaurant. That's what it takes.

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I went to a psychiatrist while I had the

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restaurant and I asked him, I said, you know, I

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grew up with beautiful women, I've had wonderful relationship,

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but I can't seem to tie the knot. And she

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said, don't pay me. Wow. I said, well, why not? She

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said, because the answer is when you divorce your

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restaurant, then you can get married.

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Wow. That's. That's pretty good advice. Is that what

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happened? That's what happened. You got married in

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1990. What year did you get married?

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19. Let's see, 20 years ago. So.

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So in 2000. Yeah. Because the picture's in

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the book. Yeah. And I. And believe it or not,

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I have a 12 year old son. I noticed that on your Facebook

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page. He's living. He's sitting in the hot tub, he's eating. You know, you're having

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breakfast or whatever you're doing together. It seems like you're very close.

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All right, I'm very, very close. And right now

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I'm his teacher because he's homeschooled. Oh, my

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gosh. How is that? This is really

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hard. It's. My wife

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doesn't have the patience. Yes, I do. That's the answer.

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And it's like what, six hours on a zoom call with your teacher? Is that

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some. A day or five hours a day or something? He goes to class

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at 8:00 in the morning until 4 in the

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afternoon. It's all video. Wow.

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And it's very, very, very difficult. That's very

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hard. That's very hard. It's very difficult for him.

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Yeah, for sure. Because kids need to get out and get interacted and

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exchange and get fresh air. I mean, just. But the teachers

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are very, very tough. And how does he, like, even focus?

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Even though I want to get back to Mama's Own, but how does he. I

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need to know this because I'm a grandpa now, so how do they,

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how do they stay focused Looking at a monitor with what? All the kids

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are on the same page, right? Well,

235
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he's in a thing called Georgia Cyber

236
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School. It's specifically designed

237
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for video. I see. And these teachers

238
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are unbelievable. They keep their

239
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attention, they call on them.

240
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It's amazing what they do. I think the teachers are working

241
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much harder than they had to when they had a classroom.

242
00:14:56,660 --> 00:15:00,484
Yeah, much harder. Well, more power to you,

243
00:15:00,652 --> 00:15:04,340
Patrick. Maybe they have to be dressed and they

244
00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:08,000
have to say the pledge of Allegiance in the morning.

245
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They have to be on time. They're on

246
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video. So Leticia knows what they're doing.

247
00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:19,588
It's really amazing. Actually, he's learning more

248
00:15:19,644 --> 00:15:23,038
now that he was in private school last year.

249
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Wow, that's quite a testimony. And your patience

250
00:15:26,718 --> 00:15:30,382
and parenting is phenomenal because this is

251
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a really tough time for both kids and parents. And for you

252
00:15:34,166 --> 00:15:38,014
to do that is pretty amazing because I'm sure a lot of parents can't do

253
00:15:38,022 --> 00:15:41,870
it or just can't. Don't have the patience. And I have to exercise with

254
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:45,246
him every day. And he makes me go on a three

255
00:15:45,318 --> 00:15:48,862
mile good boy bicycle

256
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ride. Excellent. Every day. That's excellent. Now

257
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I have to remind him I said, you know, I'm going to be 80

258
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years old. He said, I don't care, you

259
00:16:00,326 --> 00:16:03,614
50 right now. That's quite a

260
00:16:03,622 --> 00:16:07,342
relationship that you're building. And what a great. I was actually trying to

261
00:16:07,366 --> 00:16:11,006
figure this out this morning with my wife because my daughter's engaged and

262
00:16:11,078 --> 00:16:14,786
I don't think we're having a wedding in the first quarter. I don't think it's

263
00:16:14,818 --> 00:16:18,274
going to happen. I don't think California is going to loosen enough. So

264
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I, I wondered what's going to happen to, to the kids and my daughter

265
00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:25,858
particularly with her wedding when in 20 years, 30, 40 years, they're

266
00:16:25,874 --> 00:16:29,634
talking about their days to their grandkids. Well, I got married

267
00:16:29,682 --> 00:16:32,802
during the COVID time or I was going to school during the COVID You know,

268
00:16:32,826 --> 00:16:36,482
whatever that, whatever history tells us about what Covid was, they'll be

269
00:16:36,506 --> 00:16:39,870
telling their kids about it. And I wonder what that's going to sound like.

270
00:16:41,950 --> 00:16:45,782
It shouldn't be. I tell you what, I hate to

271
00:16:45,806 --> 00:16:49,350
be 16, 17 and dating

272
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:52,918
today. Yeah, forget it. You know, I want to go back to what you're talking

273
00:16:52,934 --> 00:16:56,630
about with the lifestyle of Maison, because I was looking

274
00:16:56,670 --> 00:16:59,942
at reading your book. I mean, you did things like you worked in

275
00:16:59,966 --> 00:17:03,798
Liberia, you were a steward on Pan Am, which is phenomenal.

276
00:17:03,894 --> 00:17:07,462
Wasn't that the go to airline at that era, the 60s and

277
00:17:07,486 --> 00:17:11,170
70s, those days? Yes, that's like, amazing, right?

278
00:17:12,489 --> 00:17:16,193
You trekked all over the world. You tasted foods from everything. Did you know.

279
00:17:16,361 --> 00:17:20,129
Did you know George Mardikian from Omar Cheyennes in New York,

280
00:17:20,169 --> 00:17:23,777
in San Francisco? Oh, he was an

281
00:17:23,833 --> 00:17:27,617
Armenian restaurant in San Francisco. Very famous, near Johnson. Okay.

282
00:17:27,793 --> 00:17:31,057
It was very similar trek across the world to. To

283
00:17:31,113 --> 00:17:34,833
learn about food and what to do. So I want to go back to what

284
00:17:34,841 --> 00:17:37,749
you said about learning the classics. In your piano

285
00:17:38,370 --> 00:17:42,110
metaphor, are you talking about the Escoffier

286
00:17:42,690 --> 00:17:46,474
style of cooking that we need to. As a chef, you should

287
00:17:46,562 --> 00:17:50,298
know those basic. Yeah, we need your five sauces. You need

288
00:17:50,354 --> 00:17:53,962
to know your five sauces. You need to know what a churn

289
00:17:54,026 --> 00:17:57,498
mushroom is a turn. How to peel a potato in eight

290
00:17:57,554 --> 00:18:01,226
strokes. You need how to die.

291
00:18:01,258 --> 00:18:04,870
Shave it. There's some basics you have to know

292
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,200
before you can start creating modern

293
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,120
paintings. Picasso. Picasso was a

294
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,640
very, very, very good classical artist.

295
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,320
Before you start going crazy. Wow. Yeah, that's a really good

296
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:24,176
point. There's a really great book out

297
00:18:24,248 --> 00:18:28,080
by a woman named Tilar Mazzio. She wrote about the

298
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:31,500
Ritz on Plas Vendome during the war.

299
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,840
I read it. Isn't that great book? Yeah. She talks about

300
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,600
Picasso, that. That era. So when you. When you. When you. When you had

301
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,296
this idea that Maison was going to be an outdoor

302
00:18:43,328 --> 00:18:46,224
restaurant, it was going to be French cuisine, was it going to be classical French

303
00:18:46,272 --> 00:18:49,184
or was it going to be the idea of sort of the Chez Panisse kind

304
00:18:49,192 --> 00:18:53,040
of thing where you're going to try and break? It

305
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,864
wasn't. Okay, so now, now I've got it placed. Right. So was that

306
00:18:56,872 --> 00:19:00,624
what you wanted? You wanted in a scoffier style restaurant or were you thinking,

307
00:19:00,672 --> 00:19:04,250
don't know, we're going to do something? I had no idea. But what did you

308
00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:07,430
do? I didn't know where I was going.

309
00:19:08,050 --> 00:19:11,386
I wanted an outdoor restaurant. I wanted to keep it simple.

310
00:19:11,578 --> 00:19:14,470
And then

311
00:19:16,610 --> 00:19:20,362
there was a restaurant in New York that I liked and I would try

312
00:19:20,386 --> 00:19:24,202
to emulate them. And I tried. And if you read in the beginning of the

313
00:19:24,226 --> 00:19:27,390
book, I got a terrible restaurant.

314
00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:31,846
After you first opened. Yeah. And I had the

315
00:19:31,918 --> 00:19:35,570
worst restaurant review ever written. Oh, no.

316
00:19:36,030 --> 00:19:39,398
About a restaurant in la. Ever.

317
00:19:39,534 --> 00:19:43,302
Wow. Not good. Then I said, I better go back

318
00:19:43,326 --> 00:19:47,110
to my roots. And my roots were French. So I went to

319
00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:50,966
France and I went looking for a chef.

320
00:19:51,078 --> 00:19:54,502
On my trip, I went to the south of France

321
00:19:54,646 --> 00:19:57,876
to a restaurant that was becoming very

322
00:19:57,948 --> 00:20:01,700
famous, called Lo Aziz. And the chef was Louis

323
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:05,428
Chi. Louis Che was

324
00:20:05,484 --> 00:20:09,204
really my mentor in food, and he was the mentor

325
00:20:09,252 --> 00:20:12,480
forges in New York,

326
00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:16,640
among others. And I met

327
00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:20,532
Roger Verge then and they were

328
00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:24,320
going a whole new direction of food. And

329
00:20:24,620 --> 00:20:28,388
the south of France and Los Angeles

330
00:20:28,484 --> 00:20:32,084
is the same weather, the same

331
00:20:32,172 --> 00:20:35,892
kind of season, warm weather. And they're the ones who

332
00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:39,636
inspired me to reclaim my misery.

333
00:20:39,748 --> 00:20:43,028
And then I ran across Wolfgang and

334
00:20:43,164 --> 00:20:46,788
Wolfgang became my chef. And he came

335
00:20:46,844 --> 00:20:50,398
out of the south of France. He had

336
00:20:50,454 --> 00:20:54,222
worked in a restaurant called Beaumanier and Beaumanier is

337
00:20:54,246 --> 00:20:58,014
in south of France also. You know, when I first met Wolf,

338
00:20:58,062 --> 00:21:01,838
he didn't speak very good English, but he knew what good

339
00:21:01,894 --> 00:21:05,342
food was. And we were on a wonderful

340
00:21:05,406 --> 00:21:08,942
journey together. Him with the kitchen, me with the front of the

341
00:21:08,966 --> 00:21:12,382
house. And we were a perfect marriage for

342
00:21:12,406 --> 00:21:16,030
about 10 years. You know, that's interesting. I want to go back

343
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:19,352
just briefly to Roger Verger and the

344
00:21:19,376 --> 00:21:23,048
beaucous and the chappelles of the world. I have a book in my

345
00:21:23,184 --> 00:21:25,944
kitchen, it's called the Great Chefs of France. Is written in

346
00:21:25,952 --> 00:21:29,560
1977, talks about, you know, the book, right,

347
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,416
Madame Po. Yeah, very well. And so what I did

348
00:21:33,488 --> 00:21:36,376
a couple of years ago is that I, I pulled the book out and I

349
00:21:36,448 --> 00:21:39,704
plotted all the restaurants and I was going to go to Rouen, we're going to

350
00:21:39,712 --> 00:21:43,480
go to Trogo, and we were going to go to see Monsieur Orsi

351
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,262
in Lyon, and we're going to see Pablo Cruz. And what was

352
00:21:47,286 --> 00:21:51,102
interesting to me going through the book is that most of those restaurants in

353
00:21:51,126 --> 00:21:54,846
France, these, the Michelin Etoile, were open

354
00:21:54,918 --> 00:21:58,430
and they were either family run or they've been handed to the chef after

355
00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:02,254
them. And the cultural history of cuisine in France is so

356
00:22:02,262 --> 00:22:03,810
much different than America.

357
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:09,710
Do you see America? Is America behind in

358
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:13,464
a timeline like French. What am I trying to say is the French

359
00:22:13,512 --> 00:22:16,712
cuisine and the French idea behind a chef, you know, with the MOF

360
00:22:16,776 --> 00:22:20,600
program and the history of food in France, is

361
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,152
America behind that curve? Are we going to get to a point where restaurants are

362
00:22:24,176 --> 00:22:27,720
around for 40, 50, 60 years, or are we going to be that new

363
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,592
world where we're just creating new things and trying new things and

364
00:22:31,616 --> 00:22:35,192
then restaurants come and go as they have. It's an

365
00:22:35,216 --> 00:22:38,820
interesting question. You would ask me that question

366
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,832
in March of last year. I would say I would have a

367
00:22:42,856 --> 00:22:46,112
different answer. But with COVID

368
00:22:46,216 --> 00:22:49,660
today and what it doing to the restaurant business,

369
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,420
I don't know, and I don't know if you read recently,

370
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,568
but 21 in New York closing down forever. Yeah,

371
00:22:57,664 --> 00:23:01,216
really sad, really sad. Four Seasons closing down

372
00:23:01,288 --> 00:23:04,976
forever. Amazing. So I don't know, I don't know what's

373
00:23:05,008 --> 00:23:08,500
going on in la. My good. My best friend in

374
00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:11,160
LA is Bob Morris.

375
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:16,080
Rest Paradise Trove. And

376
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:20,404
I tell you, right, he's not very happy. Well, no, it's a

377
00:23:20,412 --> 00:23:24,260
mess. I, I don't know. I don't know how Wolfgang is doing

378
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:28,068
it. He's not very happy. No. Well, the LA county

379
00:23:28,124 --> 00:23:31,876
thing, you know, they challenged it. Mark Girgos, the famous, the famed criminal

380
00:23:31,908 --> 00:23:35,600
attorney, challenged the LA county shut lockdown and

381
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,136
he won. But then days after, Governor

382
00:23:39,168 --> 00:23:42,752
Newsom decided to shut everything down. I have a cousin who owns a restaurant in

383
00:23:42,776 --> 00:23:46,512
Pasadena called Mi Piache and he was actually, when

384
00:23:46,536 --> 00:23:50,336
they moved outside. And this goes back to your point about the south of France

385
00:23:50,368 --> 00:23:53,984
and what you were trying to do in Maison when he moved

386
00:23:54,032 --> 00:23:57,600
outside, he actually, he was doing better in

387
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,846
June and July than he was last year. June, July.

388
00:24:01,008 --> 00:24:03,790
Yeah, yeah. And every seat was outside.

389
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:09,202
And, and, and. But then they shut him down again. And then we

390
00:24:09,226 --> 00:24:12,482
shut him down again. So now he's spent. That's the problem. They spent thousands of

391
00:24:12,506 --> 00:24:16,322
dollars to put tents and heaters and lighting and music and then it's all

392
00:24:16,346 --> 00:24:19,590
shut down. I'm going to go back to, to Wolfgang.

393
00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:24,034
I met him recently. I did a champagne

394
00:24:24,082 --> 00:24:27,650
lunch with the, the Rothschild family. And

395
00:24:27,690 --> 00:24:31,018
then right after I went to a very famous port

396
00:24:31,074 --> 00:24:34,890
tasting. Don Schliff here in California, probably one of the great

397
00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:38,650
port collections of the world, held a port tasting. And

398
00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:42,010
we were talking about things from the 1850s and 1870s

399
00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:45,866
and. And your old partner was there. Wolfgang was there. I sat

400
00:24:45,898 --> 00:24:49,402
next to him. Now, I didn't want to act like the devotee. I Love your

401
00:24:49,426 --> 00:24:53,194
food, Mr. Puck. So I asked him the question about Kavkaz, the restaurant

402
00:24:53,242 --> 00:24:56,682
Kavkaz, which eventually became Spago. Did you know the

403
00:24:56,706 --> 00:25:00,362
Markarian family that at Kavka? No. You

404
00:25:00,386 --> 00:25:04,112
didn't? No. So his eyes lit up because this

405
00:25:04,136 --> 00:25:07,808
was the beginning of something for him, I guess

406
00:25:07,984 --> 00:25:11,728
after leaving Mama's Own to do that

407
00:25:11,784 --> 00:25:15,520
part of the California history is fascinating to me. Tell me

408
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,312
what year you were in the south of France talking to the folks, trying

409
00:25:19,336 --> 00:25:21,904
to find a chef. 73.

410
00:25:22,175 --> 00:25:25,680
73. And so it sounds like to me

411
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,472
that that revelation for you was this is going

412
00:25:29,496 --> 00:25:33,072
to be now we're going to have to have a chef centric restaurant. We're not

413
00:25:33,096 --> 00:25:36,060
going to have appropriate tears

414
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,992
focused restaurant. We're gonna, we're gonna bring the chef out onto the

415
00:25:40,016 --> 00:25:43,832
floor and, and teach Americans that this is what food is

416
00:25:43,856 --> 00:25:47,320
about. Is that what the revelation was that was going on for you?

417
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,080
That since you. Oh, yeah, definitely. I, I, I, I, I think

418
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,360
that you'd have to go back. I don't know how old you are,

419
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:54,980
but.

420
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,370
Well, at that time, there was

421
00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:05,178
a group of guys called Gui, Miu, Malk

422
00:26:05,194 --> 00:26:09,034
and Mihau. Yeah. And they're the ones who brought

423
00:26:09,082 --> 00:26:12,570
the chefs up front through the magazine. I

424
00:26:12,610 --> 00:26:16,122
see. And I took my cue from them. I

425
00:26:16,146 --> 00:26:19,914
think. One of the Milot brothers was one of the judges at the

426
00:26:19,922 --> 00:26:23,110
Judgment of Paris with Steven Spurrier in 1976.

427
00:26:27,250 --> 00:26:30,672
They're no brothers. It was ongoing.

428
00:26:30,736 --> 00:26:34,192
Kiss. Yeah, he was. I'm sorry. He was

429
00:26:34,216 --> 00:26:36,300
the, the judge. And,

430
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,696
and they had a vision.

431
00:26:41,888 --> 00:26:45,520
They did very well with their magazine. And

432
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,344
I got to know Kish extremely well. I went to China

433
00:26:49,432 --> 00:26:53,184
with him. I brought him to la. And

434
00:26:53,272 --> 00:26:57,042
they, they tried and they succeeded. They're the

435
00:26:57,066 --> 00:27:00,866
ones who made beaucouse. They're the one who made all

436
00:27:01,018 --> 00:27:04,310
that whole school foisboro verse

437
00:27:05,450 --> 00:27:08,978
they discovered and made those chefs. And my

438
00:27:09,034 --> 00:27:12,626
uncle Lantarai was not very

439
00:27:12,698 --> 00:27:16,402
fond of them because she was a true

440
00:27:16,466 --> 00:27:19,842
restaurateur. He believed the chefs in the

441
00:27:19,866 --> 00:27:23,564
kitchen and he's in the dining room. And the chef

442
00:27:23,612 --> 00:27:27,372
should stay in the kitchen. As when Bakrush

443
00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:30,844
came out front in the dining room.

444
00:27:31,012 --> 00:27:34,520
My uncle at the time was very pissed off.

445
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:38,732
Was he a Tour d'argent then? Yeah. The only Tour

446
00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:42,360
d'arthur. How long did. What was that tenure for?

447
00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:46,220
For. I'm sorry, how long was that? That he was owner of Tour

448
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:49,520
d'argent? And what, what years was that he. Died from

449
00:27:49,980 --> 00:27:53,188
which inherited the toilet.

450
00:27:53,284 --> 00:27:56,900
Wow. For his father. And then when he died

451
00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:00,148
10 years ago, his son took it over.

452
00:28:00,284 --> 00:28:04,084
Andre. And he said to me, you can't

453
00:28:04,132 --> 00:28:07,908
do what you're doing. And I said to him, you have

454
00:28:07,964 --> 00:28:11,572
to. And then. I'm not going to go

455
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:15,046
into details, but you need a new shaft. Called

456
00:28:15,118 --> 00:28:18,742
me and he said, how do I get in touch with the

457
00:28:18,766 --> 00:28:22,486
guys like Bercuse and Berger? I said, I'll

458
00:28:22,518 --> 00:28:26,278
call them. I knew them quite well.

459
00:28:26,334 --> 00:28:30,070
And he didn't like them at the time. Eventually he

460
00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:33,478
made peace with the whole thing and he accepted it.

461
00:28:33,534 --> 00:28:36,890
But it took him a while to adapt.

462
00:28:37,310 --> 00:28:41,158
Tour d'argent just for the listeners, is across the river from Notre

463
00:28:41,174 --> 00:28:44,050
Dame. No. Yeah. And

464
00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:48,022
it's been open since 1582. And one of the

465
00:28:48,046 --> 00:28:51,094
great wine cellars probably in the world.

466
00:28:51,262 --> 00:28:54,530
Yeah. It. My great. My great.

467
00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:58,598
My grandfather took it over in

468
00:28:58,654 --> 00:29:02,422
1902. Wow. Was it in

469
00:29:02,446 --> 00:29:05,910
the family prior to that or. No, no, My

470
00:29:05,950 --> 00:29:09,508
grandfather bought in 1902. Wow. My great

471
00:29:09,564 --> 00:29:13,012
grandfather at a restaurant called the Cafe au

472
00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:16,868
lait, which closed right before the First World

473
00:29:16,924 --> 00:29:20,772
War. Interesting. And they had. He had it during the

474
00:29:20,796 --> 00:29:24,484
French Revolution. Wow. You know, you said in the

475
00:29:24,492 --> 00:29:27,540
book, you talk about how the

476
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:31,364
fork possibly showed up at Tour d'argent as one

477
00:29:31,372 --> 00:29:34,912
of the first places in the 1850s. And I was, I've. In the

478
00:29:34,936 --> 00:29:38,624
book the Great Chefs of France, it talks about Catherine de Medici

479
00:29:38,672 --> 00:29:42,432
coming to France with, you know, she married in the. I forgot

480
00:29:42,496 --> 00:29:45,952
which king. And you know, she's been credited with bringing the

481
00:29:45,976 --> 00:29:49,632
fork to France. And it jives completely with the

482
00:29:49,656 --> 00:29:53,140
timing of the Tour d'argent and the idea of the fork.

483
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,536
Well, the first restaurant, most people

484
00:29:57,608 --> 00:30:01,088
don't know there was no restaurants in

485
00:30:01,144 --> 00:30:04,680
France until after the French Revolution.

486
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:08,804
Really. There were cafes. Just

487
00:30:08,892 --> 00:30:12,212
cafes. Well, the idea of service like

488
00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:15,940
that. The main reason all the chefs used

489
00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:19,652
to work in for the royals and the words

490
00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:23,396
restaurant comes from a guy who opened

491
00:30:23,428 --> 00:30:27,252
a restaurant after the French Revolution. Wow. And all that.

492
00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:28,000
It said

493
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,088
come and get restored. That means restore your

494
00:30:35,144 --> 00:30:38,800
appetite. Interesting. And that's where the

495
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,640
word restaurant came from. How interesting. So after

496
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,192
the French Revolution, d'estro is. Not a

497
00:30:46,216 --> 00:30:49,840
French word. It's a Russian word. Wow. It

498
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,360
means fast. And when the Russians were occupying

499
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,750
France, when Napoleon.

500
00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:05,010
The Russians, that's where the beast were word

501
00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:08,670
came from. So weren't the Russians as well

502
00:31:09,210 --> 00:31:12,994
sort of responsible for the idea of plated

503
00:31:13,042 --> 00:31:16,310
service in courses?

504
00:31:17,050 --> 00:31:20,418
Well, that was from the Tsar area also earlier.

505
00:31:20,554 --> 00:31:23,890
Yeah, that's from the song. Yeah, the shark family.

506
00:31:24,010 --> 00:31:27,682
Interesting. So I'll go back to the chef thing. So have you seen the

507
00:31:27,706 --> 00:31:31,190
movie? It's a comedy. It's a French comedy. Common Chef.

508
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:36,930
It's a very cute movie. It's a kid that's trying to become

509
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:40,290
a chef and he's trying to be the chef centric

510
00:31:40,450 --> 00:31:44,290
type restaurant. Wherever he works, he keeps getting fired because he keeps coming

511
00:31:44,330 --> 00:31:47,928
out of the kitchen, going into the clients and trying to

512
00:31:48,034 --> 00:31:51,820
create food or change, tell them what to eat as

513
00:31:51,860 --> 00:31:55,040
a neighbor. The movie Comb on Chef.

514
00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:58,760
Is that a French movie? It's a French movie. Yeah, it's on.

515
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:03,308
I don't know where I saw it. There's a. There's a website called film fry

516
00:32:03,404 --> 00:32:07,244
filmfra.com. it's all French movies with French

517
00:32:07,292 --> 00:32:10,716
subtitles. I can look it up. It's really cute. It's really cute. But the idea

518
00:32:10,748 --> 00:32:14,592
of a French centric restaurant coming to Los Angeles in the

519
00:32:14,616 --> 00:32:18,336
form of Mama's Own. Were there any chef centered restaurants before

520
00:32:18,488 --> 00:32:22,100
Wolfgang came into the Mame zone? Oh yeah,

521
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,184
there was a thing called On vine

522
00:32:27,232 --> 00:32:29,700
street called Urban Tea Cafe,

523
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,168
belong to Kit Marshall. And there was Scandia. Oh,

524
00:32:35,184 --> 00:32:38,800
Scandia, right. You know, big, big restaurant. It was

525
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,882
a very famous, at the hotel

526
00:32:41,946 --> 00:32:42,910
downtown.

527
00:32:45,410 --> 00:32:49,130
Windsor. The Windsor, the

528
00:32:49,170 --> 00:32:52,954
Rinser Yacht, another one. That was a big restaurant. Is that chef

529
00:32:53,002 --> 00:32:56,650
centric? Not many, but so, so

530
00:32:56,690 --> 00:33:00,506
then the. Question begs, because this is a tough question for any restaurateur. If anybody

531
00:33:00,538 --> 00:33:04,346
knows the answer to this question, you know, we'd all be somebody

532
00:33:04,378 --> 00:33:07,440
would be famous and rich forever. And that is

533
00:33:08,220 --> 00:33:11,972
the success of a restaurant has so much to do with the maitre d or

534
00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:15,440
the owner, the procruitaire, the chef, the food,

535
00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:20,164
you know, the ambiance, who knows why. But all of

536
00:33:20,172 --> 00:33:24,020
a sudden Maison becomes the place to go in

537
00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:27,520
Los Angeles, particularly for the Hollywood set.

538
00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:31,108
And I'm wondering a couple things. One is, you think that could ever happen again,

539
00:33:31,164 --> 00:33:34,998
do you think there'd ever be a restaurant where, you know, the,

540
00:33:35,134 --> 00:33:38,774
I'm not going to say the elite but just the celebrity status that Mama

541
00:33:38,822 --> 00:33:42,406
Zone ever had? Now that's a good question. No, no, I, I, I, I'll

542
00:33:42,438 --> 00:33:46,006
answer that question very briefly. Hollywood at that

543
00:33:46,078 --> 00:33:49,250
time is a very small town.

544
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:54,598
The Fly from Mtn Burbank

545
00:33:54,694 --> 00:33:58,454
from Paramount, Onelrose from

546
00:33:58,622 --> 00:34:02,146
Motor Rider. I'm

547
00:34:02,178 --> 00:34:05,506
sorry, MGM in Culver City. The

548
00:34:05,578 --> 00:34:09,362
drive was 15 minutes. Oh wow. Like

549
00:34:09,466 --> 00:34:12,590
today you couldn't do that. No,

550
00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:18,930
you can't do that. So that was very key. The

551
00:34:18,970 --> 00:34:22,370
restaurant had a very good location. So

552
00:34:22,410 --> 00:34:26,252
geographically Hollywood was small. That's right.

553
00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:29,980
And it was the heyday and everybody used to know

554
00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:33,388
everybody. You could drive in front of the

555
00:34:33,444 --> 00:34:37,260
bistro or, or the

556
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:41,100
Saint Germain, the rest of the hall, look at the

557
00:34:41,140 --> 00:34:44,828
parking lot and you know who was dining there, you

558
00:34:44,884 --> 00:34:48,080
know, the people's cars. Wow.

559
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:52,981
Are you ready? So it was a

560
00:34:53,005 --> 00:34:56,821
very unique period. Was this, I

561
00:34:56,845 --> 00:34:59,909
mean it couldn't have been a pre thought idea that you were going to create

562
00:34:59,949 --> 00:35:03,381
a restaurant that was going to attract these people and become so famous. You just

563
00:35:03,405 --> 00:35:07,089
wanted good food. Good food, good service

564
00:35:07,389 --> 00:35:10,981
and a very protective omega.

565
00:35:11,125 --> 00:35:14,885
Yes, very protective. It's funny you know, people

566
00:35:14,957 --> 00:35:18,773
ask me, do you have any pictures of the restaurant people dining

567
00:35:18,821 --> 00:35:22,654
in it? None, just the, just these promo shots

568
00:35:22,702 --> 00:35:26,350
of the book. But nobody's sitting at their table. Not Orson Welles over

569
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:29,582
by, you know, on the way to the bathroom. Nothing. I don't have any of

570
00:35:29,606 --> 00:35:33,198
that. Never was shot, never was

571
00:35:33,254 --> 00:35:36,990
done. And I'm sorry. Well, but that was

572
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:40,782
just what you wanted. You, you, you know, once they started coming, obviously if these

573
00:35:40,806 --> 00:35:43,966
people are coming, the Orson Welles and The Suzanne Plechettes are coming to the restaurant.

574
00:35:43,998 --> 00:35:46,510
You're going to want to protect their identity. And they're, they're going to ask you

575
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:50,074
to be discreet. In the first place, I never took a

576
00:35:50,082 --> 00:35:53,350
picture. You never took a picture. And it's funny, you know

577
00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:57,450
Austin Welles, a good friend of mine, it looked like that. And when he

578
00:35:57,490 --> 00:36:01,274
died and I was in his house the night he died. Wow.

579
00:36:01,402 --> 00:36:05,114
I said, what a jerk. I have nothing to remind

580
00:36:05,162 --> 00:36:08,906
you of him. Wow. Not even, not even a signed

581
00:36:08,938 --> 00:36:12,666
autograph. All this stuff, all this amazing history.

582
00:36:12,738 --> 00:36:16,452
You could have had at least something to show for it and. But you've got

583
00:36:16,476 --> 00:36:20,132
some good pictures. I was talking to one of the vendors. I taste wines on

584
00:36:20,156 --> 00:36:23,572
Tuesdays. I start at 9:30, I finished at 2:00. I taste, I don't know, 75

585
00:36:23,596 --> 00:36:27,412
wines every Tuesday. And I have a myriad of vendors that come through here.

586
00:36:27,436 --> 00:36:31,092
And yesterday was an old timer. It was Mark Toll. In fact, I was

587
00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:34,772
looking through your credential. Your book here, the very first page, I just started

588
00:36:34,796 --> 00:36:38,004
reading it. I didn't, I hadn't read it. The acknowledgments. Larry Lipson. I knew Larry

589
00:36:38,052 --> 00:36:41,796
well. Oh yeah, Larry is a good friend by.

590
00:36:41,868 --> 00:36:45,608
Back in the day we conversed many times about

591
00:36:45,664 --> 00:36:48,920
wine. But anyway, this one vendor, he

592
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,424
says, really, you're gonna. I gotta listen to that podcast

593
00:36:52,472 --> 00:36:56,200
with Patrick because I remember going and

594
00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:00,008
walking to the bathroom and I could have sworn Orson Welles was sitting

595
00:37:00,024 --> 00:37:02,472
there. But I never found out if it was him. I go, yeah, that was

596
00:37:02,496 --> 00:37:06,328
probably him. Yeah, it was Shiv. We should buy the bathroom. Yeah,

597
00:37:06,344 --> 00:37:10,152
it's pretty amazing story. So once it

598
00:37:10,176 --> 00:37:14,022
looked like Mommy's Own was going to be happening, was part of the

599
00:37:14,046 --> 00:37:17,718
Hollywood crowd. Did you have to adjust your

600
00:37:17,854 --> 00:37:21,414
thought process on how this restaurant was going to go based on the clientele that

601
00:37:21,422 --> 00:37:24,950
was coming in or it was already part of the DNA? Well, yeah, I

602
00:37:24,990 --> 00:37:28,390
ran the restaurant. I didn't care. The

603
00:37:28,430 --> 00:37:32,086
plumber or Paul Newman, they were all important. That's

604
00:37:32,118 --> 00:37:35,846
excellent. Tell me about the wine culture. Mommy

605
00:37:35,878 --> 00:37:39,249
zone. You're Talking about this 60s and 70s,

606
00:37:39,378 --> 00:37:43,228
1976 California wins. Beats the French at the

607
00:37:43,284 --> 00:37:46,972
Judgment of Paris. And you know, it still takes many years for the

608
00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:50,428
California wine scene to develop into a world class

609
00:37:50,484 --> 00:37:54,300
operations. But how important was the wine list at

610
00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:58,028
Maison and what type of clientele was taking advantage of?

611
00:37:58,084 --> 00:38:01,916
I'm sure I'm assuming you had the Burgundies and the Bordeaux and probably some California

612
00:38:01,948 --> 00:38:03,800
wines, but was that an important.

613
00:38:05,620 --> 00:38:08,898
We were the first restaurant to

614
00:38:08,954 --> 00:38:12,802
have California. I Mean, a very strong presence

615
00:38:12,866 --> 00:38:16,626
with California wine. I think the first one

616
00:38:16,698 --> 00:38:20,402
was. Let's see, I remember the first time I

617
00:38:20,426 --> 00:38:24,258
served Callaway wine. Oh, Callaway, Yeah. Wow. Like,

618
00:38:24,314 --> 00:38:27,698
Callaway was a very, very special human

619
00:38:27,754 --> 00:38:31,490
being. Brilliant guy. And a lot of the

620
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:35,274
wines that Shelly Czech made were very good. They were. Did you

621
00:38:35,282 --> 00:38:38,938
get your number said shelter? I did not. My

622
00:38:38,994 --> 00:38:42,810
father, you know, he. My father started this in the late 60s, early

623
00:38:42,850 --> 00:38:46,042
70s, and he went to Napa many times. I don't think he crossed paths with

624
00:38:46,066 --> 00:38:49,610
Mr. Chelichev. Many others. Jim Bear was a neighbor from

625
00:38:49,650 --> 00:38:53,114
Chateau Montalena. I mean, Dave Stair from Dry Creek. I

626
00:38:53,122 --> 00:38:56,874
remember the first very well known

627
00:38:56,962 --> 00:39:00,030
vineyard of any credibility

628
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,136
was Jordan. Correct. And

629
00:39:04,208 --> 00:39:08,040
we had. Jordan was really very

630
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,580
good at the. Time

631
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,176
when you had the French, I'm sure you had Burgundies, the high end Burgundies. Yeah.

632
00:39:15,288 --> 00:39:18,344
I thought there's a picture of you handing Gene

633
00:39:18,392 --> 00:39:22,072
Kelly. Yeah.

634
00:39:22,216 --> 00:39:25,620
And so how important was that to the ticket? I mean,

635
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,344
in today's environment and this. And we're going to be on an hour here, so

636
00:39:29,352 --> 00:39:31,104
I don't want to take too much more of your time and maybe we'll do

637
00:39:31,112 --> 00:39:34,912
it again. But today's culture, if

638
00:39:34,936 --> 00:39:38,144
I'm training, we've trained many restaurants on service.

639
00:39:38,232 --> 00:39:42,020
And, you know, the key is you can double a ticket

640
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,256
by the alcohol service at a restaurant. I mean, it's very important.

641
00:39:46,328 --> 00:39:50,140
Part of the gross profit margins of a restaurant. Was it like that,

642
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,344
by the way? I'm not a believer. Or not. You don't. Okay, that's what I

643
00:39:53,352 --> 00:39:56,160
want to ask you about back then, particularly. All right, let me ask you. A

644
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,004
house. Like was a house wine

645
00:40:00,052 --> 00:40:03,668
rebuttal from France? Yes, in the house

646
00:40:03,724 --> 00:40:06,052
Bordeaux. It was

647
00:40:06,236 --> 00:40:10,052
1999, the bottle. I made more money on the

648
00:40:10,076 --> 00:40:12,600
house wine than I would do on a Bordeaux.

649
00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:17,204
Okay. So yeah, my philosophy is

650
00:40:17,372 --> 00:40:20,964
look about. Or feed the Austrian or

651
00:40:20,972 --> 00:40:24,810
whatever. If you added 25%,

652
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:28,810
you would sell it. If you would add 50%,

653
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:32,958
you'd have a hard time. They wouldn't move. So you better off doing

654
00:40:33,014 --> 00:40:36,610
volume than not selling them. Correct.

655
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:40,622
So the margins were in the house and the pores. And

656
00:40:40,646 --> 00:40:44,462
we sold more housewives than anything. Else, but it was Bordeaux. So

657
00:40:44,486 --> 00:40:48,254
that's pretty. That's pretty good. Not too many house Bordeaux

658
00:40:48,302 --> 00:40:51,136
around a house.

659
00:40:51,208 --> 00:40:55,008
Champagne, which was. Was

660
00:40:55,064 --> 00:40:58,224
a champagne menu. It wasn't a

661
00:40:58,232 --> 00:41:01,700
champagne. It was a blonde Le Blanc Tremont

662
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,500
menu southwest of France. And

663
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,272
I was the first one to bring it in here. And we did

664
00:41:10,296 --> 00:41:13,936
a huge business with it. It was crement but it was method

665
00:41:13,968 --> 00:41:17,764
champagne. Wa. Probably. That's right. So, you know, it felt

666
00:41:17,812 --> 00:41:21,396
like, and tasted like champagne, but it was. Now there's

667
00:41:21,428 --> 00:41:24,132
a. These are the

668
00:41:24,316 --> 00:41:26,880
Italians and

669
00:41:27,340 --> 00:41:31,012
Chamo and they're are giving the

670
00:41:31,036 --> 00:41:34,772
champagne a run for their money. Oh, you know,

671
00:41:34,796 --> 00:41:38,132
there's two things. There's. Well, we can talk for hours on the wine industry right

672
00:41:38,156 --> 00:41:41,940
now because it's, it's as messed up as. As the restaurant business is.

673
00:41:41,980 --> 00:41:45,712
In fact, I'm making incredible deals right now because the

674
00:41:45,736 --> 00:41:48,820
on premise stuff is gone. There's no restaurants buying anything.

675
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,992
So getting first growth Bordeaux, I'm getting Grand Cru Burgundies in here because

676
00:41:53,016 --> 00:41:56,864
they can't sell them anywhere else because no one's buying. And

677
00:41:56,872 --> 00:41:59,184
I think that's going to be going on for a little while because even if

678
00:41:59,272 --> 00:42:02,928
the restaurant's open tomorrow in Los Angeles, it'll still take

679
00:42:02,984 --> 00:42:06,240
60, 90, 120 days for them to get back up to purchasing

680
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,108
power to take advantage of these things. So it's, it's kind of a mess

681
00:42:10,164 --> 00:42:13,724
as well. But I'm just. People are drinking a lot of.

682
00:42:13,892 --> 00:42:17,292
And a lot of rose going on. A lot of rose. Richard

683
00:42:17,356 --> 00:42:21,100
Angel. I mean, they're going like

684
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:24,620
hotcakes. Well, you mentioned it and that's an important thing that you

685
00:42:24,660 --> 00:42:28,412
said because the world is smaller now in the world of

686
00:42:28,436 --> 00:42:32,284
wine. Every district in the world has a. You can get Burgundy rose, obviously. You

687
00:42:32,292 --> 00:42:35,700
can get Bordeaux rose, you can get Tuscan rose. Mr.

688
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:39,080
Sasha Lachine had a vision. Yes.

689
00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:43,140
With Whispering Angel.

690
00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:46,960
Yes. It's huge. In fact, I have a rose club now.

691
00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:51,160
I mean, a million balls a year. Yeah. Isn't that phenomenal?

692
00:42:51,980 --> 00:42:54,720
And his father would be very proud of him.

693
00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:00,196
Alexis Lachine. Alexis Lachine. Chateau

694
00:43:00,228 --> 00:43:03,950
Lacombe and others. Chateau Criol,

695
00:43:06,210 --> 00:43:09,510
chateaubrioil Chie. That's the Bordeaux house.

696
00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:14,282
He sold it. And then Sasha left,

697
00:43:14,386 --> 00:43:17,802
took the money and opened Chateau de

698
00:43:17,826 --> 00:43:20,906
Chault. Right. And now

699
00:43:20,978 --> 00:43:24,602
Gutierrez Free Ranger as well. As his high end version of the

700
00:43:24,626 --> 00:43:28,452
rose as well. Yeah. The point I was trying

701
00:43:28,476 --> 00:43:32,244
to make was that the regions of the world have all been producing now sparkling

702
00:43:32,292 --> 00:43:36,052
wines. They're all producing. You

703
00:43:36,076 --> 00:43:39,524
mentioned Andrew Chelyshev, Alexis Lachine. I'll tell you a quick cute story.

704
00:43:39,692 --> 00:43:43,252
The woman who took Mr. Spurrier around in

705
00:43:43,276 --> 00:43:46,200
1976 in Napa. Her name was Joanne Dupuis

706
00:43:46,780 --> 00:43:50,276
and she was a Napa resident since the 40s.

707
00:43:50,468 --> 00:43:53,924
And she found herself at Chateau Lacombe with

708
00:43:53,932 --> 00:43:57,668
Alexis Lachine on one side and Andrei Cheliceff on the other having

709
00:43:57,724 --> 00:44:01,334
l. When the. When they announced the

710
00:44:01,342 --> 00:44:04,934
winners of the Judgment of Paris, and Mr. Barrett was with her.

711
00:44:05,102 --> 00:44:08,726
And it was this amazing story because Mr.

712
00:44:08,758 --> 00:44:12,390
Barrett gets a phone call. He walks back into the lunch, and

713
00:44:12,430 --> 00:44:16,102
Lexis Lachine is there, and Andre Telechev. And he whispers to Andrei Chelicev, we

714
00:44:16,126 --> 00:44:19,718
just won. And he had the white Chardonnay. He had the Chardonnay beat that beat

715
00:44:19,734 --> 00:44:23,366
the Burgundies. And Andrei Chelicev says, don't

716
00:44:23,478 --> 00:44:26,982
tell anybody in the room. We're guests of the Lachines

717
00:44:27,046 --> 00:44:30,876
here. We will not discuss us winning the. The Judgment

718
00:44:30,908 --> 00:44:34,636
of Paris in front of them. So they didn't announce

719
00:44:34,668 --> 00:44:36,764
it, and they waited till they got on the bus that left. It's a very

720
00:44:36,772 --> 00:44:40,572
cute story about. And here the. The reason I brought it up is what an

721
00:44:40,596 --> 00:44:44,268
amazing amount of wine, celebrity

722
00:44:44,364 --> 00:44:47,120
and. And. And influence

723
00:44:47,940 --> 00:44:51,404
in one room. You have Andre Telecheff on one side of this young lady

724
00:44:51,452 --> 00:44:55,244
and Alexis Laina on the other. And. And they made it happen. So.

725
00:44:55,332 --> 00:44:59,048
So. But the question really was, would the Plechettes

726
00:44:59,064 --> 00:45:02,328
of the world or the Orson Welles of the world or the Newmans or the

727
00:45:02,384 --> 00:45:05,960
Ed McMahon, would they sit down and say, okay, I'd like this for dinner or

728
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,608
lunch and a glass of. Call

729
00:45:09,664 --> 00:45:13,112
something out a Grand Cru Burgundy or a glass of

730
00:45:13,296 --> 00:45:16,968
Lif. Well, at lunch, it was mostly glass of Haas

731
00:45:17,064 --> 00:45:20,760
wife, the Chardonnay. No.

732
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,506
It's funny. I grew up when I was a wine steward

733
00:45:24,618 --> 00:45:28,346
at Statler. In my college year, people

734
00:45:28,418 --> 00:45:31,930
used to say, I want Chablis Boutique. You

735
00:45:31,970 --> 00:45:35,610
say? And they would name

736
00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:38,906
the wine by the label. As I grew

737
00:45:38,938 --> 00:45:42,310
older, all those names disappeared. Yes, they have.

738
00:45:43,410 --> 00:45:46,938
And it became Amant. Chardonnay,

739
00:45:47,114 --> 00:45:50,740
a Pinot, you know, and

740
00:45:50,860 --> 00:45:54,692
all those labels, the Pre Frisade, Shabri, they all

741
00:45:54,716 --> 00:45:58,308
disappeared. Yep. And

742
00:45:58,444 --> 00:46:02,228
I don't

743
00:46:02,244 --> 00:46:05,720
remember. Free cliche was no longer

744
00:46:07,340 --> 00:46:10,760
in demand. I remember when Matus

745
00:46:11,820 --> 00:46:15,470
was the biggest drop of wine in 19.

746
00:46:16,650 --> 00:46:20,290
I would say 50, 62, 63.

747
00:46:20,330 --> 00:46:24,114
Oh, early on. That's early. Yeah, because we

748
00:46:24,122 --> 00:46:27,218
had it at my dad's farm, my dad's wine shop in Palos Verdes. He bought

749
00:46:27,234 --> 00:46:30,658
it in 69. We had tons of Matuse and Lancers. And.

750
00:46:30,794 --> 00:46:34,562
Yeah, when you said Chablis, you know, Gala would bottle that stuff under the

751
00:46:34,586 --> 00:46:38,322
label Chablis, which was, you know, sort of internationally illegal, but. And they

752
00:46:38,346 --> 00:46:42,042
would have. The red wine was hearty Burgundy. Yeah. And the

753
00:46:42,066 --> 00:46:45,082
people thought that's what it was. I used to abide by the

754
00:46:45,106 --> 00:46:46,190
habituality.

755
00:46:48,690 --> 00:46:52,090
It was delicious. Right. But those. Don't deny.

756
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:55,850
Don't deny Gallo, the Fact that they

757
00:46:55,890 --> 00:46:59,178
did make a very good Burgundy. They did, and they still

758
00:46:59,234 --> 00:47:02,890
do. They still make very good wines. You know what's interesting about those

759
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:06,224
eras, that era is those wines were screw caps. Right.

760
00:47:06,362 --> 00:47:09,828
And, yeah, it took. That was. That was a

761
00:47:09,884 --> 00:47:13,124
negative connotation about the quality of wine. If it was a screw cap back in

762
00:47:13,132 --> 00:47:16,932
1969, 72, whatever, it was not good. I mean,

763
00:47:16,956 --> 00:47:20,612
it was a cheap wine. And now, you know, screw caps are very well

764
00:47:20,716 --> 00:47:24,000
accepted in some countries. Last night.

765
00:47:26,220 --> 00:47:30,020
Last night, screw cap, really? And I have not

766
00:47:30,060 --> 00:47:33,108
seen that all these wines. I mean, I see a lot of wine, but this

767
00:47:33,164 --> 00:47:36,838
Ruffino in a screw cap. Yeah. That's

768
00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:40,022
amazing. Well, it's a lot easier for us to open than. Than it was. Than.

769
00:47:40,046 --> 00:47:43,494
It is a cork, though. I had a customer

770
00:47:43,542 --> 00:47:47,206
complain that I broke her corkscrew because she tried to open a screw

771
00:47:47,238 --> 00:47:49,930
cap with her corkscrew, and it broke. The. It broke.

772
00:47:51,390 --> 00:47:55,126
You must have been blown. It's

773
00:47:55,158 --> 00:47:58,438
a bit of a problem. You know, I. I would like to do this again

774
00:47:58,494 --> 00:48:01,608
one day. We have so much to talk about. We kind of bounced around. But

775
00:48:01,734 --> 00:48:04,164
it's been such a pleasure having you. It's been an hour. I don't want to

776
00:48:04,172 --> 00:48:07,460
take any more of your time, but you have any time. School to do. But

777
00:48:07,580 --> 00:48:11,360
thank you so much for the time. Let me ask you a question. Sure.

778
00:48:12,540 --> 00:48:16,068
When I had Mommy's Own, I did a lot of firsts.

779
00:48:16,244 --> 00:48:19,764
We were the first people to serve Perrier. We were the first people to serve

780
00:48:19,812 --> 00:48:23,380
Aviel, and we were the first people to

781
00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:27,076
serve still champagne. Are you familiar

782
00:48:27,108 --> 00:48:30,644
with still champagne? So still champagne, I mean, are you talking

783
00:48:30,692 --> 00:48:33,796
about, like, I've bought Pinot Noir from Domain

784
00:48:33,828 --> 00:48:37,600
Carneros. It's made by Marcel do,

785
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:41,492
and it's a funny story,

786
00:48:41,676 --> 00:48:45,012
but it's bothered a bottle of champagne. Then I brought it

787
00:48:45,036 --> 00:48:48,580
in, and then the custom said, well, it has

788
00:48:48,620 --> 00:48:52,052
a regular core in a bottle of champagne, but has no

789
00:48:52,076 --> 00:48:55,760
bubbles. How

790
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,600
confusing the customs. Said, well, we

791
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,312
can't let that in. And why not? They

792
00:49:03,336 --> 00:49:07,120
said, well, it's the champagne bottle. It's still, and

793
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,960
it's got a regular quart. So it's not

794
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,420
champagne. I said, no, it's

795
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,512
still wine. May Five Bird shall go. And

796
00:49:18,536 --> 00:49:22,150
you should find out. It used to sell very well,

797
00:49:22,530 --> 00:49:26,122
but now nobody has it in

798
00:49:26,146 --> 00:49:29,754
America. I'm going to find out. I think Moet is with Southern wines of

799
00:49:29,762 --> 00:49:33,546
spirits right now. But that's interesting. So it was like a 60, 40 Pinot Noir,

800
00:49:33,578 --> 00:49:36,682
Chardonnay kind of thing, or is it just A, you know, varietal as a

801
00:49:36,706 --> 00:49:39,946
chardonnay. It's a

802
00:49:40,018 --> 00:49:43,194
champagne grape, really. Huh.

803
00:49:43,322 --> 00:49:46,804
Yeah. I have to find that I've never had it all these years,

804
00:49:47,002 --> 00:49:50,848
you know. Very good, very good. And so you poured that as what,

805
00:49:50,904 --> 00:49:53,580
for lunch? Paratif kind of thing? Or was it a.

806
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,820
Just on the list? Yeah. Very expensive.

807
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:02,848
Interesting. I remember when I started, we were the first

808
00:50:02,904 --> 00:50:06,368
person to bring Rose. Tavel was number one.

809
00:50:06,424 --> 00:50:10,080
Tavel. Yeah. Well, you're right. Ros has grown. No

810
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,552
matter. Now you can't get

811
00:50:13,576 --> 00:50:17,398
it. Highly allocated. You can't get out. It's

812
00:50:17,414 --> 00:50:19,734
very hard to get. You have to, you know, you have to be on the

813
00:50:19,742 --> 00:50:23,254
list. Oh, you know. You know I became

814
00:50:23,302 --> 00:50:27,062
popular in Hollywood, don't you? No. People would come back from

815
00:50:27,086 --> 00:50:30,630
the festival in Cannes, and that's what they would

816
00:50:30,670 --> 00:50:34,090
serve everywhere. Ah. That's why Domain ot,

817
00:50:34,430 --> 00:50:37,398
I don't think I've had. I think I've been offered it one time in 30

818
00:50:37,454 --> 00:50:41,216
years from the vendor. Yeah, it's very good stuff.

819
00:50:41,248 --> 00:50:44,500
But I'm very close to the representative that handles Desclan.

820
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,580
You know, the. That's Jim

821
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,220
Rush. His game used to be a Southern rider spirit. Yes.

822
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,104
You remember all these guys, huh? Well, you know, I used to be with hi

823
00:50:57,152 --> 00:51:00,784
Marker. Wow. That's an old time.

824
00:51:00,872 --> 00:51:04,672
I left a restaurant, I was vice president of Iron Walker. Oh, I didn't know

825
00:51:04,696 --> 00:51:08,510
that. After you left, you went. You went there. So were they with.

826
00:51:09,210 --> 00:51:10,990
Were they with the Bohemian group?

827
00:51:12,810 --> 00:51:16,642
They were Southern. Okay. Yeah. So you. Yeah, that's right. I didn't think about

828
00:51:16,666 --> 00:51:20,322
this, you being in Los Angeles, you know, all those guys that

829
00:51:20,346 --> 00:51:23,842
were work streets then. And it's a different. I mean, it's a totally. You know,

830
00:51:23,866 --> 00:51:27,362
back then, it was Patterson's. You only had fixed prices. Everything was the

831
00:51:27,386 --> 00:51:30,402
same. You know, you can only sell Jack Daniels for the same price as the

832
00:51:30,426 --> 00:51:34,082
other guy and when. And Bob Balza. Did you ever meet

833
00:51:34,106 --> 00:51:37,922
Bob? I didn't do him. My dad knew him. He spoke. My

834
00:51:37,946 --> 00:51:41,670
father started two chapters of Leslie Divine.

835
00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:45,874
And. And I'm. I'm bringing that back. In fact, I wanted to

836
00:51:45,882 --> 00:51:48,290
talk to you about that, but I'll do it next time. I'm bringing it back.

837
00:51:48,410 --> 00:51:52,194
I'm trying to decide what Les Amie Devant is. You

838
00:51:52,202 --> 00:51:55,666
know, what is it? What is it going to be in the millennial generation? But

839
00:51:55,738 --> 00:51:59,196
back then, my father had Bob Bowser speak a couple of times to the group.

840
00:51:59,298 --> 00:52:02,376
M. Mandavi. Very, very good. Nathan

841
00:52:02,408 --> 00:52:06,232
Croman. Yeah, I remember Nathan very well. All those

842
00:52:06,256 --> 00:52:09,752
guys from that that era, Henry Wa

843
00:52:09,936 --> 00:52:13,288
was spoke to the group, pretty

844
00:52:13,304 --> 00:52:16,952
interesting time. And I'm so happy to have your

845
00:52:16,976 --> 00:52:20,700
opinion of that. And it's nice to speak to somebody that remembers

846
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,792
those days because it's a different part

847
00:52:24,816 --> 00:52:28,454
of the wine world. It's a whole different world.

848
00:52:28,542 --> 00:52:30,650
I think that the new generation

849
00:52:33,310 --> 00:52:34,890
doesn't appreciate

850
00:52:37,870 --> 00:52:41,650
the, let me put it this way, they appreciate life

851
00:52:42,110 --> 00:52:45,782
in a different way that we did that. And

852
00:52:45,886 --> 00:52:49,050
people like Balzer and Nathan Thoman,

853
00:52:50,590 --> 00:52:53,800
I don't think we'll survive then because

854
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:58,284
the millennium, they don't

855
00:52:58,332 --> 00:53:01,644
bring the same amount of respect that the wine

856
00:53:01,692 --> 00:53:05,164
deserves. I agree with that. And that's kind of like why

857
00:53:05,252 --> 00:53:08,572
these conversations are happening on this podcast. And I think it's important. Let

858
00:53:08,596 --> 00:53:12,060
me. Since we, we're going to open a Pandora's box here.

859
00:53:12,100 --> 00:53:15,932
But the wine culture right now is. It's a mess. And the reason

860
00:53:15,956 --> 00:53:19,040
it's a mess is the Internet and the Groupon culture,

861
00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:23,562
the coupon culture. And so I've said this a

862
00:53:23,586 --> 00:53:27,322
thousand times on this podcast, but what happens now? If you can imagine this,

863
00:53:27,426 --> 00:53:31,178
Patrick, they're bringing in, and I know this for a fact, it's

864
00:53:31,194 --> 00:53:34,970
not like, because I'm hearsay, I know guys that have lost contracts

865
00:53:35,130 --> 00:53:38,410
because they're charging ��2 a

866
00:53:38,450 --> 00:53:42,250
liter for juice coming from Europe in,

867
00:53:42,290 --> 00:53:45,782
in 20 liter tetra tax, you know, they bring it into New York and they

868
00:53:45,806 --> 00:53:49,190
bottle it on a bunch of different brands. And so what the millennials and much

869
00:53:49,230 --> 00:53:52,790
of the wine consuming public is seeing are these

870
00:53:52,830 --> 00:53:56,646
messaging. You get 15 bottles for $45, you get 15 bottles

871
00:53:56,678 --> 00:54:00,502
for $60. You can have $3 wines. And

872
00:54:00,526 --> 00:54:04,198
it's all as you would know, if you're going to pay ��1 a liter,

873
00:54:04,294 --> 00:54:07,490
it's just can't be any good. So

874
00:54:08,030 --> 00:54:11,414
the stories are being lost, your stories being

875
00:54:11,582 --> 00:54:15,398
told. Now it's being. But it's lost amongst these millennial generations.

876
00:54:15,494 --> 00:54:19,238
The restaurant story, the plight of food. They

877
00:54:19,294 --> 00:54:22,150
should know where this stuff is coming from. They should know how it got here.

878
00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:25,974
They should know how the experience of a good Burgundy or a

879
00:54:25,982 --> 00:54:29,382
good Bordeaux is so different than the stuff that that's out on the streets right

880
00:54:29,406 --> 00:54:33,030
now. So I'm trying to, in my own way, well, decongest.

881
00:54:33,110 --> 00:54:36,502
Somebody once said to me, I used to teach, you

882
00:54:36,526 --> 00:54:40,134
know, at Cal Poly Pomoto.

883
00:54:40,262 --> 00:54:43,990
Really? Yeah. They have a wine, a food program. There, don't they, at

884
00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:47,370
Kellogg Center? Yes, the hospitality.

885
00:54:48,110 --> 00:54:51,750
And I had a class there and I would

886
00:54:51,790 --> 00:54:55,526
say to them, if you always drank Gallo,

887
00:54:55,638 --> 00:54:59,462
you never know what a good wine is. But once you Drink

888
00:54:59,526 --> 00:55:03,028
a very good wine, then you know the difference.

889
00:55:03,134 --> 00:55:06,420
It's hard to go back, you know. So,

890
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,368
you know, if. Why would you have good glassware?

891
00:55:11,464 --> 00:55:15,192
Get out cheap. You'll never know what bad mine is. But meanwhile, I had

892
00:55:15,216 --> 00:55:19,016
a very good story about Mr. Lachine. Yes.

893
00:55:19,128 --> 00:55:22,632
And I was in a restaurant with him, and we

894
00:55:22,656 --> 00:55:26,472
were in the bottle of wine. And you know how they bring the bottle,

895
00:55:26,536 --> 00:55:30,280
they make you taste the wine and they swirl it

896
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,970
out. And he would take the wine and he would swirl it and

897
00:55:34,010 --> 00:55:37,346
nose it, and he would look at the wine. Stewart, he says it's

898
00:55:37,378 --> 00:55:38,590
definitely red.

899
00:55:41,610 --> 00:55:43,830
Coming from him. That's very funny.

900
00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:48,190
Well, I agree with that. I mean, people

901
00:55:49,290 --> 00:55:53,090
over emphasize that stuff. You know, people say,

902
00:55:53,210 --> 00:55:56,930
can I have a white wine or a red wine or a rose wine with

903
00:55:56,970 --> 00:56:00,720
my fruit? My answer is, you should have wine, period. If you like

904
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,272
it, then it's good. That's it. And that's the bottom line. Something that you

905
00:56:04,296 --> 00:56:07,360
like. But there is, you know, the comment you made earlier is a very important

906
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:11,184
comment. There's. There's some value to a properly made wine.

907
00:56:11,312 --> 00:56:14,784
And whether you're a novice at wine tasting or you're

908
00:56:14,832 --> 00:56:18,528
aficionado and you study it, you can tell, and it makes you feel

909
00:56:18,584 --> 00:56:22,384
something different than a cheap wine might. What. Since you're. Since we're on the subject

910
00:56:22,432 --> 00:56:25,780
and you're willing to talk a little more, what is

911
00:56:25,820 --> 00:56:29,300
your opinion of. And the idea of

912
00:56:29,420 --> 00:56:33,204
now organic? Biodynamic had a

913
00:56:33,212 --> 00:56:36,948
conversation with a master of wine last week who started a program

914
00:56:37,004 --> 00:56:40,852
called Raw Raw, which are, you know, it's not a certification,

915
00:56:40,916 --> 00:56:44,580
but it's just a classification of wine. And the question

916
00:56:44,620 --> 00:56:48,164
is this. I talked to a lot of winemakers from all over the world, and

917
00:56:48,332 --> 00:56:52,084
many of them were harvesting and processing wines

918
00:56:52,132 --> 00:56:55,732
organically already. And the comment is, the listeners have heard this a

919
00:56:55,756 --> 00:56:59,476
thousand times. My kids are playing in that vineyard. They're

920
00:56:59,508 --> 00:57:02,932
getting their hands dirty. I don't want pesticides. And so the

921
00:57:02,956 --> 00:57:06,308
idea of organic wines really isn't that

922
00:57:06,364 --> 00:57:09,652
new, but it's being popularized. And

923
00:57:09,676 --> 00:57:13,060
that philosophy, it comes out of the earth. A

924
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:16,596
potato. Yes. Comes out of the earth. It's

925
00:57:16,628 --> 00:57:18,840
organic. Yeah, exactly.

926
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:24,814
Grape comes out on the valley. It's

927
00:57:24,862 --> 00:57:27,770
organic. Yes. All right. Now,

928
00:57:28,870 --> 00:57:32,510
I was out in Bordeaux two

929
00:57:32,550 --> 00:57:36,382
years ago, and I went to a friend of mine, Alfred

930
00:57:36,446 --> 00:57:40,190
Tichron. Love

931
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:43,886
the wine. And he stopped killing

932
00:57:43,918 --> 00:57:47,740
the earth with a tractor. And now he

933
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:51,452
brought in horses to till the earth with the

934
00:57:51,476 --> 00:57:54,876
horse pulling the till. Yes. That's

935
00:57:54,908 --> 00:57:58,620
fascinating. And I said, why are you doing that? He

936
00:57:58,660 --> 00:58:02,428
Said because the tractor used to push the earth

937
00:58:02,524 --> 00:58:06,316
down while the feet of the horse

938
00:58:06,428 --> 00:58:10,172
turns the soil over. Very interesting. And

939
00:58:10,196 --> 00:58:14,032
he finds that's more organic. And then if you go, have

940
00:58:14,056 --> 00:58:17,580
you been in Bordeaux lately? Last time was

941
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,240
20:15. No, 16. Now they

942
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,016
have all these big cement. Oh, the eggs. Eggs,

943
00:58:26,048 --> 00:58:29,840
yeah. Made of the earth of the vineyard.

944
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,660
Yes. You know that. Yes. They probably had that in

945
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,648
California too, right? Yeah, the eggs coming around. But

946
00:58:37,704 --> 00:58:41,264
isn't that not unlike the caucus countries that have been making wine

947
00:58:41,312 --> 00:58:44,442
underground and they're in their earthen, their earth and

948
00:58:44,466 --> 00:58:47,962
amphora for centuries. Yeah, but all that

949
00:58:47,986 --> 00:58:51,722
stuff's coming back. Yes, I think it's. So they're all

950
00:58:51,746 --> 00:58:55,562
going back. Back to the old way as opposed to the

951
00:58:55,586 --> 00:58:58,762
new way. Well, so

952
00:58:58,946 --> 00:59:01,910
everything comes around. I agree with you.

953
00:59:03,650 --> 00:59:07,498
Wine should be natural anyway. But organic is organic is

954
00:59:07,554 --> 00:59:10,900
organic. When I see

955
00:59:10,940 --> 00:59:14,692
organic bananas for 69 cents,

956
00:59:14,756 --> 00:59:17,828
an unorganic banana. That's right, 38

957
00:59:17,884 --> 00:59:19,760
cents. I

958
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:25,012
fucking. I see the same thing here, Ralph. You should go

959
00:59:25,036 --> 00:59:28,772
to taste differently. Well, that's a good question. I ask

960
00:59:28,796 --> 00:59:32,260
that question to chefs all the time. I ask Joachim Michel and I get different

961
00:59:32,300 --> 00:59:36,128
answers. And here's the question. You and I go to the. Now Joaquim talks

962
00:59:36,144 --> 00:59:39,872
about. You know, he was, I forgot the restaurant in Nice that he's. That he

963
00:59:39,896 --> 00:59:43,664
learned his craft at. He said we would go down to the. To the shore

964
00:59:43,712 --> 00:59:47,104
and we would buy our fresh fish and shellfish, and then we'd go to the

965
00:59:47,112 --> 00:59:50,512
farmer's market and we'd buy our fresh organic foods. And so that's what we did.

966
00:59:50,536 --> 00:59:53,820
This nouvelle cuisine idea has been around for a long time.

967
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,472
And so I said, okay, let's go to the market together. I'm going to buy

968
00:59:57,496 --> 01:00:00,800
all conventional, you're going to buy all organic. We're going to cook everything, the same

969
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,054
temperatures, the service the same way, and which one's going to taste

970
01:00:04,102 --> 01:00:07,782
better? And he said, it will always be organic. And

971
01:00:07,806 --> 01:00:11,622
I've get a different answer from different chefs. And I think it all has

972
01:00:11,646 --> 01:00:15,222
to do just like wine. And just like food, you know, it's the

973
01:00:15,246 --> 01:00:18,950
passion of the maker and the farmer that's going to create

974
01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:22,358
the better food. I tell the story before my daughter,

975
01:00:22,534 --> 01:00:26,246
the Boulanger in New York. She takes me to an organic wine

976
01:00:26,278 --> 01:00:29,936
shop in Brooklyn and she wants to buy a

977
01:00:30,008 --> 01:00:33,300
Sicilian Neo Diavola that's supposedly biodynamic.

978
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,672
I take it to the counter. It was $75. And this is only a few

979
01:00:36,696 --> 01:00:40,448
years ago. Like, I'm like, Lisa, I. I've got 30,000

980
01:00:40,504 --> 01:00:43,580
bottles behind me here in my warehouse. Why don't you buy a $75

981
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,744
biodynamic Sicilian red? We took it back to the hotel. Is undrinkable.

982
01:00:47,872 --> 01:00:51,568
There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, there wasn't, it hadn't turned, it wasn't

983
01:00:51,664 --> 01:00:55,500
oxidized or just, just wasn't well made. And it

984
01:00:55,540 --> 01:00:58,876
led me to believe at that time, like, just because it's made

985
01:00:58,948 --> 01:01:02,428
organically or biodynamically doesn't make it better. And I still

986
01:01:02,484 --> 01:01:06,268
believe that the experience of a good glass of wine, like you

987
01:01:06,324 --> 01:01:09,980
said, should be the experience of a good glass of wine. It should

988
01:01:10,020 --> 01:01:13,660
taste good to you. Look, the

989
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:17,500
people who've been making wine for hundreds of years, organic and

990
01:01:17,540 --> 01:01:21,034
not organic, they know how to make good wine. That's it. I agree,

991
01:01:21,122 --> 01:01:24,906
I, I agree. It's a, it's, go ahead. I guess

992
01:01:24,938 --> 01:01:28,762
I'm old fashioned. No, I don't think so. I

993
01:01:28,786 --> 01:01:32,346
think that the stories we want to tell, we want people to understand about

994
01:01:32,498 --> 01:01:36,122
wine and food. Now let me ask you this question. I don't want to take

995
01:01:36,146 --> 01:01:39,962
any more time, but I love this question. It's an important question. And

996
01:01:39,986 --> 01:01:43,370
that is the evolution of, and maybe the premise of

997
01:01:43,410 --> 01:01:46,644
Maison actually sort of underneath the premise of the

998
01:01:46,652 --> 01:01:50,468
restaurant. If you talk to Bordeaux winemakers

999
01:01:50,484 --> 01:01:53,720
and you talk to as you have all your life and Burgundy winemakers,

1000
01:01:54,620 --> 01:01:58,340
the evolution of food in those districts. Tuscan food

1001
01:01:58,380 --> 01:02:02,036
with Tuscan wines, Pimonte foods with Pimonte wines,

1002
01:02:02,228 --> 01:02:06,052
Burgundy with Burgundy, et cetera. And when I told that

1003
01:02:06,076 --> 01:02:09,220
to Jacques la, and I had that story, talked to him on a

1004
01:02:09,260 --> 01:02:12,772
podcast, I said, we don't have that in California. We don't even have

1005
01:02:12,796 --> 01:02:16,524
indigenous wine grapes. Right. Zinfandel, which is our only hope to

1006
01:02:16,532 --> 01:02:20,300
be indigenous wine grape is Croatian. So in

1007
01:02:20,340 --> 01:02:23,800
California, we didn't get a chance to start with

1008
01:02:24,580 --> 01:02:28,428
grapes of our own and foods of our own. And I sort

1009
01:02:28,444 --> 01:02:32,124
of positioned it as a not a bad thing, but just sort of an unfortunate

1010
01:02:32,172 --> 01:02:35,932
thing. And he's like, no, the beauty of California

1011
01:02:35,996 --> 01:02:39,676
is it's the new world. You can take whatever you want,

1012
01:02:39,748 --> 01:02:43,572
grow whatever you want, and prepare food around it any way

1013
01:02:43,596 --> 01:02:47,332
you want. Was that what sort of the Mommy's own sort of premise was at

1014
01:02:47,356 --> 01:02:51,124
that point? I, I agree. I, I, I, I think it's

1015
01:02:51,172 --> 01:02:54,760
all in the taste of the buyer

1016
01:02:55,260 --> 01:02:59,012
of the people who's eating the food. That's it. You know, we

1017
01:02:59,036 --> 01:03:02,148
want to have a fide of soul with the red wine. That's your privilege. That's

1018
01:03:02,164 --> 01:03:05,844
right. But it's interesting. That's the rape. My father

1019
01:03:05,892 --> 01:03:09,294
in law, and he likes arty

1020
01:03:09,422 --> 01:03:13,102
wine from the Southwest. I can't drink them, they

1021
01:03:13,126 --> 01:03:14,610
have too much acid.

1022
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:20,270
I'm a Bordeaux person. You're right, though. I mean, I

1023
01:03:20,310 --> 01:03:24,078
say the old way, I'm a claret person. They're claret person.

1024
01:03:24,134 --> 01:03:27,790
Right, Claret, Sebillian. So,

1025
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:31,502
so here's, here's a. It is an old word. It's a, you know, the

1026
01:03:31,526 --> 01:03:34,630
English version of Bordeaux. Right, right.

1027
01:03:35,170 --> 01:03:38,938
So when I go home now, and because of COVID I'm

1028
01:03:38,954 --> 01:03:42,634
drinking, I'll admit I'm drinking better. I mean, this is a

1029
01:03:42,642 --> 01:03:46,474
very common outfall. The wines I'm selling more of now. I

1030
01:03:46,482 --> 01:03:49,658
don't think In January of 2019, I could have sold

1031
01:03:49,834 --> 01:03:53,482
$50 cabernet from California, $100 bottle of Camus. I

1032
01:03:53,506 --> 01:03:56,906
would never have been able to sell those to my clientele prior to Covid.

1033
01:03:57,058 --> 01:04:00,758
And now I can't keep them in stocks as people are drinking better because they're

1034
01:04:00,774 --> 01:04:03,810
spending their money on this kind of thing. But what's happened to me

1035
01:04:04,750 --> 01:04:06,662
is I know I'm going to have a glass of wine when I get home

1036
01:04:06,686 --> 01:04:10,038
no matter what. So instead of saying, what are we having for

1037
01:04:10,094 --> 01:04:13,670
dinner? And choosing a wine, I go home and say, what do I feel like

1038
01:04:13,710 --> 01:04:17,254
drinking? And if it's a Rufino Chianti with a screw

1039
01:04:17,302 --> 01:04:21,126
cap, that's what I feel like. And I'll eat whatever I'm eating. Or if it's

1040
01:04:21,158 --> 01:04:24,998
a high end Burgundy, I feel like Burgundy. If I feel like my wife

1041
01:04:25,014 --> 01:04:28,684
and I don't agree, we feel like drinking quite often. But

1042
01:04:28,772 --> 01:04:32,492
that's okay. The other night I

1043
01:04:32,516 --> 01:04:36,332
felt like a very rustic Pinot. And there's a new one from California I

1044
01:04:36,356 --> 01:04:39,532
just brought home and I loved it and she couldn't stand it. But I just

1045
01:04:39,556 --> 01:04:42,620
thought I was so ethereal. And so thing is that the way you feel about

1046
01:04:42,660 --> 01:04:45,820
wine is like, what? What am I going to drink tonight? And then, oh,

1047
01:04:45,900 --> 01:04:49,160
really? Last night

1048
01:04:51,060 --> 01:04:54,864
I cooked dinner. I made ravioli

1049
01:04:54,992 --> 01:04:58,512
with mushroom cheese sauce and

1050
01:04:58,696 --> 01:05:02,384
we had a nice lucido

1051
01:05:02,512 --> 01:05:06,032
donkey. Perfect. Thank you so much. It was such a great

1052
01:05:06,056 --> 01:05:09,800
pleasure. My pleasure as well.

Famed Restaurateur Patrick Terrail of Ma Maison

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