Inside Bordeaux: Wine, Terroir, and Emotional Experiences with Dominique Arangoits

0:00 This is more important, you know, the terroir, the taste of the terroir. That is more important. And it is above the variety, the man, the way of farming. It is above a lot of things. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. Avec Monsieur Angoïs. Dominique, c'est plus simple. Dominique Angoïs. I think from now on we're going to speak English just because I have a little cold and I'm not hearing well and my French isn't that great.

0:46 Anyway, this is actually, this is a podcast for a new podcast called Wine Talks, and what it's for is for the consumers to learn about some of these great château in the world of France, in Bordeaux, Burgundy, all over the, all over Europe. And so I'm very happy to be here today to have a chance to talk to you about your personal history, history of the château, what's happening in Bordeaux. And we're gonna cover all those things while we're here. But you said that you started at school in Bordeaux. Yes. Now, were you gonna be in the wine business when you were a child, you thought? No, my grandfather has a small piece of vineyard to make wine for at home. For your family? Yes, exactly. That's all. Then I made agronomy study in Bordeaux, and on the last year, I had opportunity to try winemaking and vineyard managing option.

1:47 I did that and I saw immediately that it could be a passion for my life. Yeah, it does take passion. Yes, yes. So when you were a kid, your grandfather made money, he made wine. Was that from the South and where were you? Yes, I was born in the Basque Country, we call Pays Basque, near the Spanish border in the mountains. And so I was at 3 hours from Bordeaux, 2.5 hours from Bordeaux for the studies. Yeah. So you didn't stay in the south of France. You went to school in Bordeaux, which is a very famous university for enology. Yes, exactly. After the agronomic school called Bordeaux Sciences Agro, I went to the enology school of Bordeaux, which was famous. Very famous. To become an enologist. Bordeaux. And so— It was in 1992, '93. And that, is that when Dominique said, yes, I think I want to be in this business, this is very passionate for me? Yes. That's good. It was on that year, yes. And did you then go to the south or did you end up in Bordeaux immediately or what did you do? No, I, after making my study, instead of making army, I am from '69, so at that time we were obliged.

3:13 We were obliged. That's amazing. We had the opportunity to do army in the civil, so in a French company who put money in foreign country. And I had opportunity and I was very lucky to have a touch with AXA insurance company. Yes. Who just bought a vineyard in Hungary. In '92. Wow. And I went there and I was with the team of Jean-Michel Cazes at that time and his technical team managed by Daniel Jozsa. It was in '93. So was there a lot of French influence in that part of— I don't know the— I only know a few wines from Hungary because we don't see them much in America, but was there a lot of French influence in the winemaking in Hungary at that time or is that— Yes, in the Tokaj region, some several companies arrived within 2, 3 years in the beginning of the '90s.

4:10 So Tokay being white wine, but Angry Bickerer, I remember that wine. Not far, yes, yes. It's 1.5 hours. That's a region. Yeah, this is a region. Yeah, okay. So the Tokay, what were they growing in Tokay? What were you doing at the winery? Um, in Tokay, I was a winemaker and also managing the estate. And we were, I was lucky to follow the building of a new winery. Wow. So a brand new winery. From the ground up. Yes. From the beginning. Exactly, exactly. I was happy to follow with the team of AXA at that time. And it was a very good lesson for me for the following of my career in Côtes d'Estournel because in Côtes d'Estournel also Michel Odier, the owner, and the manager at that time, they gave me opportunity to imagine a new winery. Wow. From an empty sheet. Yeah. From nothing. From nothing. That's amazing. 'Cause it was interesting. I have a daughter who's a boulanger in New York. She's a chef boulanger for a little restaurant.

5:27 And so, a new cuisine, a new kitchen. From scratch. She learned a lot being able to build that kitchen so it would work for her, right? That's very important. So what a great lesson. So when you took— when you left Tokay, you went— and that's when you went straight to Bordeaux? Yes, exactly. And I arrived in January 2000, same year as Michel Rabier, the owner today. And I was in charge of vineyard managing, 2 years. And I started with winemaking and vineyard managing with the old 2 Vintage. So it's— so, uh, je pense que c'était 1993. Je suis— nous sommes allés le tour d'Argent, donc mon père a commandé une bouteille de Casteaux Nationale 1962. D'accord, incroyable. 62, I never tasted.

6:36 Ah, jamais vu. D'accord, je pense que 6 $600. It was a lot of money for— yeah, for that time, yes, it was really good. So that was my— incredible. We listed that we went to the, in the caves. So, uh, this current owner's been there how many— how long has he owned the winery, the current owner? Yes, uh, uh, how many years? 20. He arrived in 2000. The history of Costes Estanales, because it's on 2nd growth in '55. Exactly. In the Saint-Estephes village, there is no first growth. It's like in Saint-Julien. Yes. And we don't know why. And so we are second growth. Yes, exactly. But the whole, I mean, almost all of the classified growths are in the Médoc, which is kind of interesting, basically, except for one, right? There's only one in Graves, but Most of it's the Médoc, the Pauillac. Margaux, Pauillac, Margaux Saint-Julien, Pauillac, and Saint-Estèphe. So Côte Saint-Étienne is a second growth, and then there's Château Montrose.

7:42 Yes, exactly. We are two second growths in the operation. So I'm best interested in the politics of this, right? Because it's never changed. One time it's changed in 1973. Exactly. With the little— influenced by the Rothschild family, right? So is it ever going to change? Is it a political deal? How does this work? Does the chamber still have a conversation about these things, or is it what it is? Nobody wants to change that. It could be too difficult to do with objective criteria. And you know, Between the second growth, you have the market and the image and the work of the owners and the wineries made a big difference. Yes. This scale of price and quality. It's important and I think you have to keep maintain.

8:37 Yes. And we, well, as owner Michel Rebier gave us possibility and money to imagine the the best winery we can imagine for the wine, for his wine. And so he's very ambitious for this growth. He come also for the blend and he's with us, with the team. But there is never question of quantity. Yeah. We have to do the best, of course, for the years. So Napoleon III was the emperor at the time of the classification. So the nephew of the original Napoleon Bonaparte, right? I just read the story.

9:28 Okay. Okay. Are you on that? It's very interesting to me because it was very controversial. It seemed like at the time when they did the classifications is what it is. And I think for the world of wine, it's a good thing. I think people respect the classifications. They respect the order. And I think the wineries themselves respect their position in that order. Yes, of course. But, you know, today it's not enough to be second growth. The market, the ratings— It's crazy. —push you to be, to try to be the best always. Yes. So it is— It is a good sign. It is a good— it is also good because It pushes us to always make evolutions and to always try to do our best. It's what's in the bottle that matters, right? That's what we talk about. We hope. Yes, of course.

10:24 Well, in my business, which is everything in the mail, par post, du vin par poste, right? And it's in America, the wine business is kind of a little crazy. It's a little mixed up. The distributions, consolidation, retailers, internet retailing is very complicated. And so everybody's sort of struggling with trying to figure this out. And having conversations with people like you, winemakers from Burgundy, from Champagne, from America as well, it's coming down to this passion that comes into the bottle. That's The way you differentiate yourself is what's in the bottle.

11:06 Yes. That's what it comes from, right? This is a key point, you know, and the terroir gives the highest potential of the wine you can do. You are only there to try to reveal this potential. Stay out of the way. It's like the variety. The variety, like I said, is here not to show himself. It's here to read the terroir and nothing more. We are here with the team to do the same. It's to read the terroir and to try to put the taste of the place in the bottle and nothing more. Not ourselves. That's not easy to do.

11:48 And I think the wineries that continue to do that successfully were the wineries that will be successful because it's a very difficult business, as you already know. In America, it's even more difficult because everybody thinks they can do it. And there's— I have a competitor of mine who sells wine on Groupon. 12 bottles for $60, $5 a bottle. And it's junk. It's a mad— right? It is another world, you know? It's a totally different world. But the consumer doesn't know that. The consumer thinks, I'm getting wine for $5. And the experience of wine, when you taste wines like these, is not about how cheap you buy it. It's about what's in the glass when you're drinking it. Yes. And a big wine coming from a big terroir gives you emotion. You know? Yes. It's not only pleasure. And sometimes with big vintage and some day, the time stops. And this is what wine or art can give. It is. You know?

12:54 I have friends that just built wine cellars in their house. My neighbors, very close friends of mine, but all they want is Napa Cabernet and they don't understand how to differentiate and feel what you're trying to put in the bottle. So in the terroir, it's Saint-Estèphe. You showed us in this, it seems rather diverse. Are you water? Are you irrigating there or no irrigation? No, no irrigation. It's forbidden in France. So in Bordeaux, it is forbidden. Oh, it is in Bordeaux forbidden? Right. Okay. So we depend on the climate. We depend, you know? Right. So are you sensing climate change in Bordeaux yet, or is this pretty stable still? No, we feel that. And the way we feel that since 20 years is that Cabernet Sauvignon ripe much easier than in the past. In the past, Cabernet Sauvignon was ripe only in the big vintage, only 2 years on 10. And today it's quasi each vintage we have ripe Cabernet. This is completely new and it could be impossible to imagine that 20 years earlier to say that. Really? That's interesting. So Cabernet Sauvignon was on limit ripening region and now with this warming, We see perfectly that it makes ripening easier. So is it earlier? Yes, earlier

14:24 and more complete ripening. And so that explains that the quality of the tannin of Cabernet Sauvignon today is more easy to manage than in the past. So when you get to ripening, and this is something I've learned as well through these interviews, we're no longer relying just on the sugar content. We're looking at— I noticed you mentioned downstairs that you're using the fermentation starting of a whole berry. You're using the indigenous yeasts already. Yeah, at the beginning. That's right. So it's already happening. But a lot of winemakers are talking about the thickness of the skin, the pH of the skin, the acids in the skin.

15:04 We, we, we, we make all this analysis of food. Calculations. Right. And we taste the berries also. And this is a mix. And also we, we have the, uh, We have meteorological stations and we know, we also calculate the temperature sum, the total temperature. And that gives also an idea of when, theoretically, the grapes is ready. So we need different keys. Archive keys. To make the good decision. And the taste. Also. You go home at night with grapes for dinner? No, no, no. We go through the vineyard and we taste it. And what is interesting is this is also the experimentation and the link we have with each block. You know, a block is like a person and we know a block and a terroir and a part of terroir. Has the bad side of his good side. Yes, right. You know, we are, it's like a person. And a big terroir is not perfect, you know. And all our life we have to try to understand the bad side of each block and to fight against that. This is this relation of each block and the memory that push us also to decide to harvest or not. Each

16:37 block. That's interesting. So the contribution of that block to the ensemble, right? To the bottle and the mélange. So is it organic? No, we stop using herbicide. Yeah. So 4 years of no herbicide. We work with the soils, cultivate soils. We use a lot of grass. And when the soils is too rich on stone and we want to keep the water, We cultivate, we flow. And then we use only 4 or 5 products which are not allowed to be organic, but these products are gentle for the users and also doesn't put residues on the wines. Yes. This is a 2 key point for us. So, I mean, I'm not sure that I agree with all the things that are happening. For instance, There's this natural wine. Means nothing to us. There's no definition. Consumer thinks it means something. I mean, what's unnatural about any wine, right? You know, if you put grapes or juice in a bottle, in a barrel, and you go for holiday, you will not make wine with that. You would make vinegar. Except if you are lucky or— So then the natural yeast, the indigenous yeast is not enough, it gets locked up.

18:11 It is a choice. You know, we use indigenous at the beginning, but then we use selected yeast when we follow. It is a choice. Maybe within 5 years we will do differently. You know, it is a job, winemaking, it's never white or black. Yeah, right. You have to be very, very flexible. Yes, yes, yes. But that would be very good second-growth vinegar, right? So it's possible. I am not sure the price could be the same. Actually, there used to be a gentleman in the old days, I'm talking about the '80s, and he would go around and collect the half bottles at a tasting and he would make first-growth or second-growth vinegar out of it. It's pretty good, right? It's possible. Technically, it's possible. Yeah, so I'm I'm fascinated by that subject and I've tried to understand it better myself.

19:09 I have consumers that are asking me these questions and we all know the sulfite question. You know, they consider natural wine to be less than 78 parts per million, but this is probably less than that. No? I don't know. Probably around that, something like that. You don't add much. It's already part of the process. They want dry farmed. I'm not sure why that's unnatural to have water, but they want dry farmed, which it is. Why is that unnatural? I don't think it's a problem. Sugar. There's no sugar here, right? It's dry. So I think in the consumer's mind, there's, they misunderstand what all this happens, what happens in the winery and how important it is. But I do believe They're sort of looking at the least amount of intervention being touched by somebody, right? But somebody does something to it, right?

20:05 Yeah. There's a book in America called "La Troisième Assiette." It's a book on biodynamic farming in the food business, wheat, corn, all the rest. It's written by a chef in New York. He tells this amazing story about Alain Ducasse who came to visit his restaurant, which my daughter went to Alain Ducasse's pastry school in Yssingeaux. So he talks about how Alain Ducasse tasted the butter and knew that it was not made by hand. And Alain Ducasse tasted the fact that the cows were not grazing in a fertile part of the farm. And it was true. And so I think with grapes, it's the same thing. That eventually you need to taste where it's from. Yeah, exactly. Right? Exactly. You need to determine that. It's not just the emotional part of wine. Exactly. And this is more important, you know? And the terroir, the taste of the terroir, that is more important.

21:13 And It is above the variety, the man, the way of farming. It is above a lot of things. Yes. The terroir. I have this new conversation and I already mentioned part of it where when you're having a glass of wine with friends, family, a meal, whatever you're doing, it should be an emotional experience. You may not understand the emotion or the flavors you're tasting. That's not important. What's important is that it makes you feel something. Exactly. Exactly. Big wine take you, take your hand and then you go, you travel with it. That's right. And sometimes you can be afraid and this is interesting. Yes. And you are meaning, but you are wondering where I am going and then the wine come back to the right road. Yeah, you're right. And you know, and this is interesting in wine. It's a little voyage entre soi, perhaps.

22:14 I'll tell you a story. Somebody sent me a bottle of Beaujolais. I think it was Beaujolais, like nothing in particular district. And it was undrinkable. 2016, terrible. And it was being sold under a brand name, a very famous TV show in America. That was the brand. And I felt sorry for the consumer because he That person buys this thinking, oh, it's from this TV show, it must be good. And he pours it for his friends. There's nothing to talk about except how bad this is, right? You want to be able to emote. It should be out of the way, right? It should not be part of the forefront of your mind. You should be tasting it, enjoying it, discussing life with it.. And it shouldn't be telling you other than that. You should be experiencing the wine. And that's the way I think about it now. And it's changed my outlook. This is relatively new, even though 30 years in the business, the concept is new for me. Because I think it's a very important concept for the consumer to understand what your job is and what co-sustainable means is that reflection of where it's from. And that's the emotional part of it. That's my new mission to do this. Okay. Thank you for us and for us. So tell me about these vintages. This is an extraordinarily interesting thing for me to taste this vertical.

23:47 All the wines are different. And where do you want to start? You want to start? Well, we started with the '08. '08 was the first vintage we made in the new winery. So using the gravity. Yeah, that was fascinating. Your new methodologies. It's very simple, but so important for the wines. Yes. You sort of automated what would've been a more difficult thing, but it's still very natural, gravity-fed. Exactly, exactly. This was in the same philosophy of Michel Rabier, the owner, is to put in the bottle the taste of the terroir. And he don't want the wine to be disturbed by something.

24:28 By something. So, so we, we, with this facility, we are gentle, and this is very important, even in not so ripe vintage. And we are sure to never over-extract. So you put a grape— this diagram— you, you put the grapes in the hopper, you put them in the thing, and there's very little pressure. There's no pressure. Exactly. It's free-run juice in the back. Yes. Which I think you call Goutte. Van de Goutte. Van de Goutte. So— We put the grapes without pumping. This is the first step. And because of that, the seed is always, always rounded by the skins.

25:14 And at the end, we are sure to never over-extract the tannin of the seeds, which can be— And so you are— And then we do délestage. We empty the— the tank twice a week, twice a day during the fermentation, during 5 days. And then we put back the juice on the skins. And this is to allow the extractions of the color. Fascinating. And we do that with these moving tanks without pumping also. So the first juice is clear or is it a little bit red or what is it? It depends on the vintage. In very ripe vintage, and with very rich grapes, it's immediately black. Really? It's incredible. It was the case in '05. It was the case more recently in '16 and '18. Fascinating. And the '08, less color? Yes, needed more time. More time. But it is a surprise to see how the wine is alive today. 10 years after.

26:21 So after the Vente de Gouttes, you Now you make some press juice. Yes. And the press wine is very important in Bordeaux because we use this press wine, uh, to, to, to, to make the, the blend and to adjust the, the last touch of the blend. The, the big Bordeaux wines, the big growths need, uh, press wine to make, to be more complete and complex. So if I was to take, just for fun, The free-run has started to ferment a little, no? Because of the yeast on the skin. Yes, yes. This is the step where it's— Like a whole berry. Before fermentation. Yeah. And then before working of the wine. Yes. So if I put a glass under the Vin de Gouttes and a glass under the Pression. Yes. How would I, what would they look like? The Pressed wine, has usually more tannin and it is not the same quality of tannin. It gives spice and the pressed wine also makes the marriage between the different wines on the blend more easy.

27:38 It gives du lion. Softness, roundness. And roundness and that make the wines married. Yeah, I see. Right. And that help to make a link between the wines of the blend. Well, okay. And this is a crucial point of an aspect of the press wine. So they— you blend all of that together or do you blend them based on the percentage? In other words, you've got all this wonderful press juice and all— No, we have several blending sessions with the team and the owner, Michel Rabier, and We try and we do our best. We don't care on the variety, never. We look after what is the variety inside, but we build the cost we imagine as the best in each vintage, for each vintage. Fascinating. And we do that before putting the wine in barrel. We want to blend early to make the marriage as early as possible because our terroir has a lot of different soils and we think that it's important to marry the different wines coming from the soils early to have— Let them meld together. Better, exactly. That's an interesting point because I did an experiment yesterday with my own staff and I took, actually it was some Marzambé, and I had some California Cabernet of the same

29:08 vintage. And I had them taste them separately. And I said, now I want you to put them together just 50/50 just to see. And they're obviously different wines. And I said, do you not sense that they're not together? That you distinctly taste this Cabernet and you distinctly taste this Bordeaux. They're from different parts of the world, different soil, different everything. And they do not blend well. I was trying to teach them this idea. Yes. You can imagine if it will work or not, but you need to try because you can have surprise. Fantastic. Yes, yes. We're only humans, right? Exactly. And Émile Peynaud, the Pope of oenology in Bordeaux in the past, said that when you do a good blend in Bordeaux, the blend is better than the best tank. That's right. 2 2 5. Exactly. Right? Exactly. And you have a blending effect. A plus or 1 plus 1 equals 3 and you have a blending effect, which is magic. It's too bad that our friends in Burgundy can't do that, huh? Yes, but it's— no, no, no, but it's that makes their job more difficult. You know, sometimes they have one block, one variety, one terroir. And you have to be right on the date of harvest and everything. In Bordeaux, you have different blocks, different soils, different variety, and you can play. You can. You can play more easily. Right. And in Burgundy, I suppose

30:42 it's very interesting, but not easy. Not easy. To manage. Any biodynamic farming in the Médoc? You have some, a few vineyards which are 100%. Yeah. She's— Everybody like us make experimentation. Yeah. Everybody, voilà, compared. And then, voilà, each winery start to have his own road and philosophy. I noticed between the '04 and the '05, there was a big difference in its— the aged component of the character. The 0.4 seemed to have been more advanced in its age for the one year than the, like, between these two. Yes. Uh, 0.5.

31:35 Acid content, ripeness. Yes. Um, 0.5, in 0.5 we had incredible conditions. We had dry conditions since the beginning, but never too hot. And so dry conditions make very positive and interesting hydraulic stress for the vineyard. Just enough for the vineyard to stop growing end of July and to ripen the tannins. And the not too hot conditions keep the fruit. And this combination in Bordeaux can be magic. Can be magic. It was great. They're all great. Well, it's been fascinating. I was really intrigued also by the '16. I mean, just when I put my nose— Still a baby. Yeah, and it jumped out of the glass. But this was a great vertical for us. Yeah, it could be very interesting to taste the '16 within 10 years after. The '50 and the '40. You know, and with the wine, this is also an interesting side. You sometimes, you want to be older because you want— Yeah, right. And what— Well, absolutely. Well, I'm incroyable pour cette discussion. J'ai apprécié. C'est un plaisir de parler avec vous. Je pense que je vais acheter 2-3 cases pour mon

33:06 ami Thomas Cotillet. OK, merci beaucoup.