WT Jesse AUDIO MJ

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My philosophy is something that I learned long ago in

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winemaking and one of my favorite quotes, and that is, if we

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would all just pretend like we've done this before, we'd

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be in a lot better shape. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kaye, and we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California. It's an incredible day here. It's like 80 degrees,

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you know, you know, 3 days into March, but to have a conversation with Jesse

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Fox from Sequoia Grove Wine. The introductions in a second. Actually, I'm gonna read it

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right now. Here's what ChatGPT asked me to say, Jess,

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on this. And welcome to the show, by the way. Thank you. It's a pleasure

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to be here. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Napa has always been a

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place where craft meets ambition, but right

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now the whole wine world is being asked to evolve. People are drinking less, attention

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spans are shorter, and the old playbook doesn't automatically work anymore.

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So today we're gonna talk to someone who came up into the wine world through

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a different door. Jess Fox is the winemaker at Sequoia Grove in

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Rutherford and has been training ground in his— in this training ground

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was not a lab. It was the heat and discipline of elite kitchens like The

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French Laundry. This is a mindset built on repetition, timing,

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and taste memory. He's now applying it to one of the Napa's classic

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Cabernet houses. How to honor place, keep wines

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food-driven, and still make people say wow in a changing market.

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We'll talk vineyard decisions, style, hospitality, sustainability,

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and what Napa has to do next to stay culturally relevant.

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Okay, let's start with that. Why don't you tell us what you

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think? That's a wonderful question. That's in there easy.

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Yes, definitely. Stay culturally relevant. We're

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good. Wow, that does encompass a lot. I

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mean, I feel like staying relevant in this

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industry right now is is obviously really important.

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I think what I believe that kind of what

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the industry has gone through over the last 40 years is it's just been

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exceptional growth, you know, just year after year.

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And yeah, there's been a couple downturns here and there, but overall, just the

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excitement of our wine, the customers, it's just been

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growing and growing. And I think we're presented with some of the challenges

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that you could probably even take back to before those 40 years.

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You know, where there's not as much of an audience

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drinking, you know, or drinking wine. And I think

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there's multifaceted kind of answers

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to this question, but I think in general, my

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philosophy is something that I learned long ago in

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winemaking and one of my favorite quotes, and that is, if

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we would all just pretend like we've done this before, we'd

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be in a lot better shape. And that's

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it. That's an interesting thought. I never thought of it that way. I think what

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it really is, is it means like stay true to what the business

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is, stay true to what you do well, you know, and

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this is a business about relationships. You know, I look at the amount

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of wineries in the Napa Valley and what, you know, 800

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plus or minus wineries in the Napa Valley now. Mostly

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small family businesses, right? And I

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think that's what this industry is as well. Yeah, there's a few of those

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chains and there's a few of the larger wineries at different levels,

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but in general, we're a bunch of small businesses that are trying to work together.

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And what do we value as small businesses in general? I

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think there's personal interactions. And what do we value in the

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hospitality industry? Personal

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interactions and those connections and those relationships. And

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so I think if we get back to that in this industry and say,

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hey, first of all, we got a great product that is second to none

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in the world, especially in Napa, but you could say

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in general, I mean, I think it's one of the most incredible beverages

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that exists out there. It is one of the most natural beverages

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that exist out there. And I'm not going to use the word alcohol

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because I don't think that's what it always has been. You know,

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the fact is, is that this is one of the only beverages that

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if you take grapes off the vine, throw them

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into a bucket, crush them up, they will turn into a final product.

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You know, you don't have to do anything

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else. You know, let me stop you there for a second. It's because you

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touched on a lot of what's going on in this industry. And I just got

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back from Wine Paris. I actually did a couple of podcasts with the

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you know, sort of this think tank of change,

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which I'm not even sure is applicable. But what you

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just said kind of jogged my memory in putting this

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whole thing in a couple of classes. And I think the conversation I had yesterday

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with Chateau d'Yquem is exactly the same. It's about the experience, about the

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people, and this product isn't gonna go anywhere. And there are

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pundits walking around wine pairs saying, you know, we're on the cusp of

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collapse here in the wine trade. And I'm like, no,

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maybe some businesses are, but certainly the beverage is not.

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And it's been around for too long and it does exactly what

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you're saying. It hits some emotional chords in the human body and the human soul,

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the properly made ones that will preclude it from

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alcohol and preclude it from a beverage in

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general. So

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your experience in the culinary side, and you also just referenced a bunch of things

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that would, that would reflect on the experiential side of

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wine. Is that where this sort of thought process came up with as, as

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you traveled through the culinary world? I think,

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yeah. I mean, I think everything I've experienced in this career path,

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you know, I kind of, I didn't necessarily come from a

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foodie background. My parents loved food. My mother loved to cook. That's where I

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really learned the passion. We went out to dinner every

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so often, but it wasn't fancy restaurants. They drank a

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little bit of wine, but it wasn't fancy wine and that wasn't just this

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huge part of our life. But kind of one thing,

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when I knew I wanted to get into the food business,

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I wanted to be an artist, you know, I wanted to be great. I wanted

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to be on TV. I wanted all the fame and that kind of

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stuff. But what I thought is like, I wanted great

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restaurants and I wanted to create great food.

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And share it with people, right? And, but the one thing I

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wanted to do before I did that was I wanted

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to understand the business, and that's just more of who

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I am. So the reason why I chose to go to Cornell rather than going

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directly to, you know, a culinary school or something like

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that, I eventually did, was because I wanted to understand what it meant to be

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in the business. And when it got to Cornell, it really opened me up

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as to like, what does that really mean? I didn't come from a restaurant family.

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You know, my mother was a professor, my dad was an engineer.

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And I think the idea of understanding everything was just so important

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to me. And when I got there, I really understood the value of those

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experiences, the value of

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hospitality. I mean, I take it back to today right now,

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and I say this often, like, I think we make really good wine.

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I think I make really good wine. I think there's a lot of people,

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a lot of winemakers that are very talented that make really good

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wine, but it's beyond that. It's creating

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experiences, it's creating a brand, it's creating

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the connections with your customers and

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kind of building those stories. So that's what's

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driven me is that knowledge that this is not just about

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making a great product, but also about the whole package. And that's been

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that way for me from the very beginning.

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It's, uh, it's critical, I think. And, you know, you— when you

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talk— you first brought it up, uh, I've been— I've been talking

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to wineries about this on the show in various, various locations,

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that we need to bring that experience back. And you, you can

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kind of see that in Bordeaux now. You can actually go to a tasting room

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in Bordeaux, and maybe 10 years ago you couldn't even do that. Yeah.

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Or even in Burgundy where you can go to the house but you can't buy

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it. And so I think that people have to,

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you know, tourism has to be cranked up. Obviously when

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I travel and the people that go with us, they know we're gonna

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go to wineries. Now we're going to Ireland in May, so I'm not sure where

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I'm gonna go there, but. Distilleries are okay too. Yeah,

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trying to go. All together here. Jameson on this. But I do think it's a

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critical part of the future of the industry. Not that it's because

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of the future, it's because it's always been that way. I mean, my father had

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a wine shop. You can see him in this black and white blurred thing. That's

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him and I standing in the store in 1975. That

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it was about experiences always. You know, I used

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to usually wear a patch here from Les Amis du Vin, which was a

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150-chapter wine enthusiast group that was in the US

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back in those days. And they would have these dinners and Mondavi would speak

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and Michael Brodman would come down and speak, you know, fly over. And

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that It was the experience, and that's how wine has always been.

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Maybe we got away from that with all this packaging and

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cans and, you know, they have pouches now. Can you imagine that?

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And that experience now has turned into just, you know, the cheapest thing you can

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buy on the shelf or these wines that they're putting in

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some of these generic clubs that are, you know, a case of wine

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for $80 and there's free shipping. It's, it's not good. So how are

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you handling that though? Right. You know, Napa's got a, an enotourism problem

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right now. I was talking to Violet Gergich. She said that their, their

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tasting room traffic was down 30%. How, how does it

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look at Sequoia Grove? And do you, does the industry feel

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like it's gonna come back? So I think,

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you know, I talked all this thing about like, let's get back to what really

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got us here, which I do think is part of it, but it doesn't mean

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that we can't innovate. In our own, right? So I

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think it's about finding new ways to reach customers.

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And some of those new ways are old ways. You know, it's, we're not going

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to just sit on Zoom. We're not just going to send, you know, text messages

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to phones. We're not just going to send emails and expect

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everything. We're not just going to heavily discount. Like, I don't even think

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that's the answer. Although I do think price is an issue in the

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Napa Valley. I do think access is an issue.

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You know, we make a Napa Valley Cabernet that, you

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know, reaches all 50 states and 19 different countries.

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And I think that's pretty powerful, right? To kind of have

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that ability. And, you know, yes, we make these beautiful wines at the

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top end, you know, $150 to $250

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a bottle. But those, most of the first

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people that hear about Sequoia Grove is through our

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nap cap. You know, that is one of the most important

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lines that we make here. And I treat it that way. And I talk to

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our team that way, say, this is what we're making that's going to have the

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most ability to help. Now, I think, how are we

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accessing, you know, utilizing technology, but not

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forgetting those great experiences? And I think it is, it's getting back

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on the road, it's reaching out to customers where they're at. It's

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realizing that they're here for experiences. And, you know, there's a

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lot of information saying customers are still coming at a pretty decent rate,

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but they're buying less. So then it's just about getting more,

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right? And getting more reach out there and taking

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whatever kind of negativity might be in

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the industry based off this negativity towards alcohol

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at this moment in time and really turning it

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around to saying, Hey, we're more than that. We've always been more than that.

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We're a beverage. We're something people drink with dinner. You know,

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you have soda, you know, or even juice that can be

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heavily manufactured, you know, and not, you know,

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I, it's funny. I showed somebody the other day and I only know this

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because I tried to do it myself. I have a, I have an herb distill,

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distill at home, but it will hold 750 ml of

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wine. And when you distill off a bottle of wine down to

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14, let's say it's 14%, you get like 2 ounces, right? I mean,

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it's a really small percentage of alcohol, even though the number seems

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large. The actual volume, if you drank a whole bottle of wine and you're

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getting, you know, 3 ounces or so, I forgot the calculation, but it's a very

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small amount that, you know, to call it an

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alcoholic beverage in the sense of it's gonna catch, you're gonna catch a buzz and

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have this big party is really not the case. With wine. Let

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me, let me ask you this, and I, I, I made this analogy the other

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day, uh, and I, I, I applied it to,

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to youth sports, but I'm going to do it in the culinary

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side, the experiential side of wine, which

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at the French Laundry where you worked, I mean, wine is a huge part of

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the, of the book, right? It's a huge part of the, of the tab, let's

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call it that. I have a funny story about that,

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but, but everybody that walks into the French Laundry

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is not a wine geek, is not a

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wine aficionado. Some people have very little, very little,

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very little access to wines like that. But when they come to

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the French Laundry, they want to get the whole experience. And so if

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you take that whole crowd, let's just say a week's worth of

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the participate of customers, you're gonna have a huge range

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of, of, uh, wine enthusiasts. That sit at the table

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and experience, you know, the 7 courses or 10 courses

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you guys put out there, and the sommelier giving them

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a recommendation based on whatever he or she

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is able to conjure out of them to make that decision. And

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so I guess the question is, how do we attract and how do

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we innovate to get to the person that's never had a glass of wine with

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meal like that, to the person who's telling the sommelier, no, I want a, you

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know, Côte de Nuits and I want a 2018 and

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whatever. I think that it goes back to, first of all, one simple

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skill that all customers have is they know what they like and they know what

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they don't like, right? And that is the place where

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I start when I'm out in the market in a lot of ways, especially because

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that can kind of range from somebody who has an incredible amount of

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skill to someone who has— or incredible amount of

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knowledge— to someone who has no knowledge whatsoever, right? I'm going to put a wine

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in front of you. You tell me if you like it or not, you know,

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up until, hey, what are you interested in? Yeah. So I think if you take

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it as an opportunity to kind of craft things that,

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that are well made, and this can be wine or

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food and well balanced, which is something that, that I've

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always believed in, you know, two of the words that I used to describe my

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winemaking is how do I build complexity and balance? Right? Because I

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believe that when somebody, whether they have a lot of wine

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knowledge or not, tastes a well-balanced

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wine, they're going to think it's good. And they're going to, they might

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not even know why. When you get the perfect balance of

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a wine, which is kind of my goal, it almost

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like shocks you to the point of you don't know why you

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like it. And all of us who have a lot of experience can be

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like, all right, I'm going to step back. I'm going to think about this. Why

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do I like this wine? You know, and you might say the acid's really good.

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You might say the weight's really good. The bouquet is really nice. You know,

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there's different aspects of it, but that can hit everybody

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the same. And I used to say this as a chef, and I believe it

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as a winemaker. You have to believe in this

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industry, whether you're a chef or winemaker, that what you like is

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what the majority of the people in this world

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like. And that might not be true, but you have

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to believe that to do what we do. That's a really

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interesting thought. And I think we're going to get along great because I've been talking

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about this idea

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that, you know, I don't like to call it the aha moment because everybody has

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them and it's kind of cliché. But the fact that if you do put

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a properly balanced and honestly made wine in front of

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somebody, whether they're a novice or not, they raise an

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eyebrow. And it's because of the honesty and the

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representation of that place and that time. And that was obviously the other night we

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went to a steakhouse here in Pasadena and it was my wife's birthday. So of

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course I bought a Grand Cru Burgundy in the

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Côte de Nuits region. You just missed my birthday. It's been about

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a month now. So next time. February 22nd.

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January 27th. Very, very close. So she, and then

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I took a Château Guiscourt

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and my friends are, they like wine. They're familiar with,

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they're familiar with Sequoia Grove. I know that,

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but I got a text from the, from our best friend's wife

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saying, thanks for the wine. They were really

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good. Now, no one ever just texts me out of the blue for no reason.,

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but these two bottles just struck a chord. She has no idea why. She probably

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has no idea that they're separate regions of France and that they have

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different designations, but they recognize the quality. And I think

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that's a really important part of that experience you're talking about. They're

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like, whoa, I didn't know this kind of thing existed. And that doesn't

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happen in the culinary world too. Like when you serve a dish that's just

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off the charts. I think so. You know, I think

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that's, that's what chefs strive for. I think, you

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know, there's this idea of

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deliciousness too, which I love. A colleague of mine said that, and

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I just, I really think it's true because it's the same thing, but

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it's like a wine needs to be delicious too.

293
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Yes. Right. We have to remember that we're making

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food., you know, in the end it's a version

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of it, right? How does it look? It's like it, it takes longer to make,

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you know, when I was working in the kitchen. Yeah. I might

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work 12 hours, 12 hours and 8 hours is prep and then

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you're finishing it in 10 minutes, 20 minutes or

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so. But the difference is, is kind of the length of time, right? This you

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get to do over a couple years and try to have a little more patience

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with it, I think. So you went to Cornell, and I, and

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I just sent off, um, a young girl who was my intern here at the

303
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Wine of the Month Club before I sold, and she, uh, got an interest in

304
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wine. They have a little vineyard in their house in the valley here

305
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in Southern California, and she, uh, got accepted to Cornell Hospitality School, and

306
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she's focusing on enology. And she just got back last

307
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June. She had a short, uh, internship at Château Bailly,

308
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and so she was so excited. Now she's looking for work in, in,

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in Napa. And she went when Molly was running Sequoia

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Grove up there. I don't know who the secondary winemaker at the time, but they—

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she wanted to speak to a woman in wine, so we sent her up to

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Napa with her parents, and they sat with, um, the assistant winemaker. So

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that was very encouraging. You're— I will have to say that Sequoia Grove

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was part of her, uh, raising the interest in her of, of

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the wine world. But why would you

316
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switch from You know, I'm completely intrigued with my

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daughter's experience and food, the kitchen, the back house, the front house,

318
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the whole thing. I just love it. And yeah, what

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was it that you decided that you would switch from

320
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that pressure cooker to? Well, I think there's a

321
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couple of things. One was that I took a year off after high

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school before I went to college. I kind of got into

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Cornell, deferred And I was in a beautiful place. I lived in Israel

324
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for a year. My mother's from there,

325
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stationed in Jerusalem. And I remember one night I was kind of by myself

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just staring out, you know,

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and it was this kind of really powerful place, right? It was kind

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of, I envisioned it as like the meeting of East and West

329
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cultures, right? And I was standing out right in the middle. But what it made

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me think is it made me think about like being young and like

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this big decision I made to go to Cornell Hotel School. I mean,

332
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that's a very specific,

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very like narrow path to get on. And I, you know, I

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was a little worried about it. I think in that moment I just said something

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to myself, which I think is so valuable, is that, look, this is what I

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want to do right now. And I promise that I'll

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promise myself that if I decide that I need want to change, then I'll

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be okay with that.

339
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Right. I also believe that, you know, first of all, I don't think they're

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that far apart, but I was driven, you know, I wanted to take

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every class I possibly could at Cornell that had to

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do with food and wine. And that's what got me excited about it. And

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so I got really into wine while I was there, but I was still

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dedicated to food. I found out I was

345
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able to, graduate a semester early from Cornell. So I kind

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of asked my parents, I said, hey, if I take off a

347
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semester and work, you know, will you help me pay for culinary school? And so

348
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that's what I did my junior year. I took one semester off,

349
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I moved to Chicago, worked at a restaurant called Trio

350
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in Evanston with one of the greatest chefs I ever worked for, this

351
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guy Sean McClain. My first real fine dining experience. And

352
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then right after that, I ended up going to Cordon Bleu in Paris. I

353
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basically said to myself, you know, if I'm looking for French cooking, why not go

354
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to Paris? Might as well do it, right? And I love traveling and,

355
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you know, I grew up traveling, so that was something that was important

356
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to me. And so lived abroad and that was great

357
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too. And I came back, I finished my degree

358
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and moved. I actually received a scholarship from

359
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a Koch family. Kopp family's the owners of Sequoia

360
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Grove as well as, wow, the owners

361
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,360
of Cobrand, Domaine Carneros, Louis

362
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Jadot, Resonance, St. Francis, all the wineries.

363
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And so I received this scholarship that took me all over the world again to

364
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wine regions, all the Cobrand properties. And that kind of exposed me because

365
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I thought about wine at that time and I said, hey, you know, do I

366
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want to be a somm or do I want to be in the kitchen? 'cause

367
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I was cooking while I was there. I was bartending, I was waiting tables.

368
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I was kind of doing what I needed to do to help

369
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get through college. And I did the trip and decided afterwards that I really wanted

370
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to be hands-on. So I knew I wanted to go into the

371
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cooking world. So I, you know, I'd worked in Chicago, I

372
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worked in France a little bit. I went to New York City, worked

373
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there for about 2 years, 2 and a half years. And then I

374
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was looking for my next job and I applied

375
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,360
to Per Se and Per Se, I got

376
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a call from Thomas

377
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,600
Keller and basically he said to me, well, I'm not hiring for Per Se

378
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because I'm bringing everybody from the French Laundry out from California

379
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to open Per Se, but I am hiring for

380
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,200
the French Laundry. And for me, there was two things. One, I had

381
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,600
worked in California before when I was in college and loved it, loved the idea

382
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,200
of moving out there. And although my family was all from New York, I

383
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,880
wasn't interested in staying. I wanted to go do something else. And

384
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,680
the city was fun. It was great. I loved it. Great friends and a

385
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lot of good times. But I'm like, the idea of moving to

386
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,200
California was like brilliant. Sure. I'll move to California any day of the week.

387
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,640
So there was like multiple reasons why I was going and to work at one

388
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,200
of the best restaurants in the world. And obviously

389
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,570
you're a huge factor.

390
00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:21,210
But good excuse. We were there not that long ago and we were at the

391
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:24,650
hotel, the Vintage House right there that's between Ad Hoc

392
00:24:24,650 --> 00:24:27,610
and the French Laundry. And the whole

393
00:24:29,290 --> 00:24:32,250
stream of chefs, like the Pied Piper, Thomas Keller

394
00:24:32,650 --> 00:24:35,450
was leading this entourage. There must have been

395
00:24:36,170 --> 00:24:39,850
30 chefs or hospitality folks. And maybe they're going to Ad Hoc

396
00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:43,660
to the back burger job bar or whatever they're doing. He was, he was

397
00:24:43,660 --> 00:24:47,460
doing some kind of training at that moment, uh, and I don't know if

398
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:51,300
you've noticed, if you know that they've completely redid their vegetable garden there

399
00:24:51,620 --> 00:24:54,900
across the

400
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:00,180
way. Yeah, what, um, so when you, you got there and

401
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:03,940
you, you, were you already experienced in that

402
00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:07,380
kind of hospitality? Which is, you know, you look at one thing we did notice

403
00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:11,160
when my daughter graduated from Atlanta Cassis Pastry

404
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,480
School, you know, the way the French keep their

405
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,200
kitchens and the requirement for, uh, well, put it this way,

406
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,960
we went to Orsay, uh, when it had a Michelin star,

407
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,960
and you went into the kitchen, which was 30 years old,

408
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,280
and you wouldn't remotely suggest that the way the condition

409
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,160
of that kitchen. Um, so when did you, like, were you out of the pot

410
00:25:35,290 --> 00:25:38,570
into the fire? I think I was kind of on

411
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:42,090
that path. Yeah. And, you know, I was kind of used

412
00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:45,970
to working in fine dining restaurants at that point in time. I had about,

413
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:49,810
you know, 3 and a half years of experience in it. So

414
00:25:49,810 --> 00:25:53,650
I kind of knew the expectations and they were high, you

415
00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:57,490
know, they were high in a lot of ways and

416
00:25:57,490 --> 00:26:01,010
getting there. I mean, I also grew up with a German

417
00:26:01,010 --> 00:26:04,330
mother and German grandmother, so I got plenty of OCD going on

418
00:26:05,370 --> 00:26:09,190
in my brain. So the idea of a a tidy, organized

419
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:12,710
workspace. It is very integral to who

420
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:18,110
I am. But going out there and kind of having that

421
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:21,510
experience, I think was one of the most incredible things about working at

422
00:26:22,030 --> 00:26:24,230
the French Laundry. The

423
00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:27,430
high demand, the

424
00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:32,510
high expectations, the unbelievable standards that he has, and to try and

425
00:26:32,510 --> 00:26:36,130
live up to them. I mean, that's what was exciting

426
00:26:36,130 --> 00:26:39,290
about it. I think that what it

427
00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:43,810
came down to at some points during that process, and I spent a little

428
00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:47,370
bit under a year there,

429
00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:51,010
was that, you know, I would move out to California. I love

430
00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:54,810
the idea of living out there. It wasn't, you know, you

431
00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:58,610
spend all your career, this was a slightly shorter career, but

432
00:26:58,610 --> 00:27:01,950
it, it was a career basically saying, I want to work at the best. I

433
00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:04,790
want to be the best. I think I said it kind of earlier. I wanted

434
00:27:04,790 --> 00:27:08,630
to be a great chef. I had this fantasy in school

435
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:11,950
and in my senior year, I remember about, I want to be, you know,

436
00:27:12,430 --> 00:27:15,910
best new chef, Food and Wine, right? That was the big thing. You know, I

437
00:27:15,910 --> 00:27:19,470
think in my head, the TV chef, what's that?

438
00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:23,150
You know, the TV chef. Yeah. That

439
00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:27,470
kind of thing. Get that recognition for what

440
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:30,830
you do. And so being there was part of that. And so you're like, okay,

441
00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:34,530
this is the best. And I think when you

442
00:27:34,690 --> 00:27:38,410
build up expectations like that in your mind, and I

443
00:27:38,410 --> 00:27:42,210
actually have to say I was probably a little bit older than most of the

444
00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:45,810
people who had just started with me, or maybe even some of the people that

445
00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:49,650
had been working there for a couple years. I had a little bit

446
00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:53,490
of experience. I had a little bit of world experience. And I think

447
00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:57,330
with the pressure that was going on and the idea that this was supposed to

448
00:27:57,330 --> 00:28:00,890
be the best of the best, I think there were moments where I kind

449
00:28:00,970 --> 00:28:04,770
of questioned that. There was moments where I questioned

450
00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:08,490
my ability or my interest in working in an environment with

451
00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:12,450
that much pressure and with that much

452
00:28:12,450 --> 00:28:16,171
expectations. And then I, you know, did I really want to be Thomas Keller?

453
00:28:16,171 --> 00:28:19,890
You know, when it came down to it, I think asking a lot of

454
00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:22,970
those questions in terms of, and with all the stress

455
00:28:23,610 --> 00:28:27,320
and that environment, I realized it wasn't for me. You know, or

456
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,880
maybe it wasn't that it wasn't for me, but I needed a break because I

457
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,720
think it was, it was getting to me and I wasn't enjoying it. And although

458
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,440
I was learning a lot because I had never, you

459
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,120
know, made food with such long prep lists

460
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,840
and for such long hours and things like that. I mean, I worked plenty of

461
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,600
long hours, but it was pretty stressful at the time. So I

462
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,150
just basically decided, hey, I need a break. And it wasn't, you know, in my

463
00:28:53,150 --> 00:28:56,590
mind it wasn't that I would never go back. It was that I just needed

464
00:28:56,590 --> 00:29:00,270
a break. And I had my hand at winemaking at a few

465
00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:04,110
places. We, I worked at Louis Jadot for a week as part of that

466
00:29:04,110 --> 00:29:07,430
scholarship program. You know, I worked in the Finger Lakes when I was my

467
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:10,870
senior year at Cornell at a

468
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:14,550
winery. And the idea was that like, oh, I knew about winemaking.

469
00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:18,310
I knew the smells of winemaking. And when I was driving up and

470
00:29:18,530 --> 00:29:22,170
down the valley, in Napa. It was October, you know, and

471
00:29:22,170 --> 00:29:25,930
the smells of fermentation were in the air. And I was just, I was like,

472
00:29:25,930 --> 00:29:29,530
of course, like, this is what I'll do. I remember I was, after

473
00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:33,210
I decided to leave the French Laundry, I was

474
00:29:33,210 --> 00:29:36,050
driving over to Sonoma to interview for an internship

475
00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:40,490
at Gary Charles. And I interviewed with Gary Charles and I was

476
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:44,210
driving back and I basically, you know, had another one

477
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,080
of those epiphanies. But I was like, you know, this

478
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,240
idea of, okay, I know in my heart I'm

479
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,440
a workaholic, but I kind of didn't want to turn into

480
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,840
what I viewed as the way a lot of these chefs turned into where

481
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,520
their whole life is the restaurant. And I was

482
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,520
like, wow, winemaking. I get to be a workaholic 3 months out of

483
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,360
the year. Yeah, not bad. Right. And then for the rest of the year, you

484
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,860
know, it's a lot more manageable, a little bit more like a,,

485
00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:17,580
you know, a regular

486
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:21,100
job. This is, uh, an interesting, um, transition.

487
00:30:21,180 --> 00:30:23,020
So would you say

488
00:30:24,940 --> 00:30:28,620
to any young person, uh, let's start with the culinary side. Uh, we

489
00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:32,860
went to the CIA, uh, presentation, the one in Napa, Greystone, and

490
00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:36,140
my daughter was looking for cooking schools and she was definitely

491
00:30:36,140 --> 00:30:39,750
looking to be a boulanger, but start somewhere. And she wanted

492
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:44,270
to go savory too. In fact, uh, anecdotally, since I'm going

493
00:30:44,270 --> 00:30:48,030
to see, uh, Nancy Silverton, she— when Benno told her, because

494
00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:51,790
Benno hired her as a line cook, not as

495
00:30:51,790 --> 00:30:54,790
a baker, and— but then he found out her skill sets because she wanted to

496
00:30:54,790 --> 00:30:57,830
do both. And when he opened Benno, he took her over as the baker. But

497
00:30:57,830 --> 00:31:01,390
he was— she was at Lincoln with

498
00:31:01,390 --> 00:31:05,030
him, wine cook. And so when he says you got to

499
00:31:05,030 --> 00:31:08,190
pick to her. She goes, no, she goes, Nancy didn't pick, so I

500
00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:14,830
don't have to pick. Anyway, and so we, we were very

501
00:31:15,230 --> 00:31:19,030
disappointed in the CIA presentation the day we were there in

502
00:31:19,030 --> 00:31:22,870
Napa because they were talking about, you know, you can skip college and you

503
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:25,870
can just be this person and, you know, we're, you know, we

504
00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:28,990
have the most TV personalities, you know, all that. And it's like, no, I don't,

505
00:31:28,990 --> 00:31:32,760
I don't think that's the message. She didn't like that message. She really

506
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,480
wanted to learn the techniques on the savory side of things. And she

507
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,160
ended up in the New York, which is

508
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,680
now ICC or ICA, ICA, but it was the French Institute at that

509
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,480
time. But would you recommend that? Would

510
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,320
you, as a winemaker, would you recommend enology

511
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,960
school? Or as a chef, would you recommend cooking

512
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,640
school or the cellar rat sort of methodology where you— and that's

513
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,610
the other thing that happened just to put that in context. When she got to

514
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:04,930
New York and she had already been accepted to ICA, she got

515
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:09,570
an offer at Prune. They told her to skip school, come work for us,

516
00:32:09,770 --> 00:32:13,330
we'll teach you. And I told her, I sent you to New York, you're going

517
00:32:14,370 --> 00:32:17,170
to school. So yeah, paying for that. But what would be your thought process on

518
00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:20,970
that? I think it's, you know, it's whatever individual is looking for. You know,

519
00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:24,450
I told you why I went to Cornell because I

520
00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:28,050
didn't just want to understand cooking. Like, yes,

521
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,680
I had that artistic passion inside of me

522
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,560
that I wanted to express through,

523
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,640
through cooking, through food. But I wanted to understand the business and I think it

524
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,479
works both ways. I really do. I think there's great

525
00:32:44,479 --> 00:32:48,040
winemakers who went straight to school and started working, and there's

526
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,960
great chefs that went straight to,

527
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,480
you know, culinary school and then cooking, or just straight to cooking.

528
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:59,430
I think you can, you can learn all of it. The only thing

529
00:32:59,430 --> 00:33:03,270
that I really feel strongly about is that no matter what, you're

530
00:33:03,270 --> 00:33:06,990
going to have to put your time and it's worth it putting your

531
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:10,070
time into working your way up from the bottom. I say

532
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:12,710
that about, you know, winemakers

533
00:33:14,150 --> 00:33:17,830
and chefs. I think, you know, for me, I really, I really did

534
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:21,630
work up, you know, from the bottom, especially when I

535
00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:25,110
got into winemaking. I was an intern. I was fortunate enough to get an

536
00:33:25,620 --> 00:33:29,380
internship at Harlan Estate. As my first job. Yeah. Where you land,

537
00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:33,220
how you land these places. I, you

538
00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:36,140
know, I think there's lots of things that helped along the way, whether it was

539
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:38,580
Cornell, whether it was the French

540
00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:44,140
market. I'm sure everything. Yeah. So, but I,

541
00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:46,540
but I worked there and, you know, I came in as an intern and I

542
00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:50,500
was offered a full-time job pretty quickly. But

543
00:33:50,660 --> 00:33:54,420
I took time off and I, worked, did a harvest in New Zealand.

544
00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:58,220
I did a harvest in Argentina with the permission after I got

545
00:33:58,220 --> 00:34:02,060
the job, and they were very supportive of it. I spent, you

546
00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:05,260
know, 6 years there working, and there was moments

547
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:09,540
in my career where, you know, do I, should I go back to school?

548
00:34:09,540 --> 00:34:12,740
And I think I got, I got to those points where I'm like, I think

549
00:34:12,740 --> 00:34:16,340
I need to go back to school. And then I would apply for another job

550
00:34:16,340 --> 00:34:19,779
and I'd get another job and I opened up Ram State Wine. You

551
00:34:19,779 --> 00:34:23,619
know, I basically managed production there as the assistant winemaker. I worked

552
00:34:23,619 --> 00:34:27,139
there for another 6 years and I was feeling a little bit like the ceiling

553
00:34:27,139 --> 00:34:30,579
was hot, you know, and should I go back to school? Should I take more

554
00:34:30,819 --> 00:34:34,138
classes? Took some classes, those other stuff, 'cause they didn't have that science background.

555
00:34:35,139 --> 00:34:37,979
So there was some, there was some doubt there at some point. Who was at

556
00:34:37,979 --> 00:34:40,899
the helm at Louis Jadot when you were

557
00:34:41,539 --> 00:34:45,219
there? So that was Jacques. Oh, he's

558
00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:48,830
unbelievable. I mean, what, okay, seriously, that is, that ain't right. Right?

559
00:34:48,830 --> 00:34:52,190
It just ain't right. Let's use colloquial

560
00:34:52,590 --> 00:34:56,350
English. You know, this— your career, and you were under Thomas Keller,

561
00:34:56,350 --> 00:34:59,790
and you're at Harlan with, with, uh, what's his

562
00:35:00,110 --> 00:35:03,789
first name? And then, yeah, and then, and then you're at Louis

563
00:35:04,430 --> 00:35:08,270
Jadot with Jacques Ladinier, you know, which is like

564
00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:12,190
the most visionary, philosophical, philosophically based winemaker I've ever spoken. And I, and

565
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:15,910
I got to dig out the tank

566
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:21,790
of 2002 Musigny. Well, I've threatened my wife with like, we're gonna live in France

567
00:35:21,790 --> 00:35:25,350
and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna call Frédéric Barnier, which is

568
00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:30,350
the guy that replaced Jacques Lavier, and, and, and work. I'm just

569
00:35:30,350 --> 00:35:34,150
gonna work. We're, as long as the UA, the, the, uh,

570
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:37,870
union will let me stay in Europe, I'm gonna work there.

571
00:35:37,870 --> 00:35:41,070
And she's, she actually broke down the other day. You're welcome anytime at Sequoia Groves

572
00:35:41,070 --> 00:35:44,090
if you'd like to get dirty. Well, we, Been there many times.

573
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:48,730
So tell me then, then let's move. We haven't really spoken much about

574
00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:52,770
Sequoia Grove yet, but when you're driving up Highway 29, it's

575
00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:56,490
one of the first things you see in

576
00:35:56,490 --> 00:36:00,250
Rutherford. It's still got a charm, country charm

577
00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:03,930
about the location. The wines are obviously, they're very good and they've had under great

578
00:36:03,930 --> 00:36:07,610
tutelage for all those years. How'd you land there and

579
00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:11,440
then what did you bring to them? So, you know,

580
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,360
with my experience at Harlan and a bunch of their projects,

581
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,200
Napa Valley Reserve, Promontory, Bond and Harlan, I

582
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,640
opened up Ramsgate Winery, which was more eye-opening, I think, for

583
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,360
me and was like brewing skill, definitely brewing skill. But, you

584
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,000
know, it was mostly on the Bordeaux side and they're mostly on the Burgundy

585
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,680
side, you know, Pinot, Chardonnay. We actually did a lot of Syrah. I think

586
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,450
I did 36 different wines when I was at Ramsgate. But

587
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:40,170
then I heard about an opportunity

588
00:36:41,290 --> 00:36:45,050
to move back to Napa Valley with Amici

589
00:36:45,610 --> 00:36:48,810
Cellars and Tony Biagi, who I got connected with through a

590
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:52,850
good friend of mine. And it sounded like a great opportunity to kind

591
00:36:52,850 --> 00:36:56,410
of take everything that I learned at Ramsgate and everything

592
00:36:56,650 --> 00:37:00,330
that I learned at Harlan and go over there, help

593
00:37:00,330 --> 00:37:04,130
kind of build a brand. With Tony, which was really exciting and

594
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:07,690
a small group of people. And I learned at that moment

595
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:11,970
that the idea that a winemaker needs to look for two things

596
00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:15,290
when they go for another job, and that is great

597
00:37:15,610 --> 00:37:19,410
people and great vineyards. And so you want to understand your support network,

598
00:37:19,410 --> 00:37:23,130
right? The people that are behind it. And Amici was about that.

599
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:26,570
There was great people. Everybody worked their butt off. We had about

600
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,040
6 or 7 different 6 or 7 different people that worked for it. Maybe it

601
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,840
was up to 9 with the owners and every one of them worked

602
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,460
their butt off, you know, and we

603
00:37:39,580 --> 00:37:43,080
went from like 20,000, 30,000 cases

604
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,720
with 3 different brands, single vineyards from the best

605
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,400
vineyards in Napa Valley, single vineyards

606
00:37:52,770 --> 00:37:56,290
from Chardonnay and Pinot. To a couple hundred thousand cases by

607
00:37:56,370 --> 00:38:00,090
the time I left with every single one of our wines scoring

608
00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:03,810
90 points and above all the way up to Tocalone at

609
00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:07,170
$300. It was really

610
00:38:07,610 --> 00:38:10,770
exciting place. And I was, you know, the winemaker there

611
00:38:11,170 --> 00:38:14,930
with Tony as well. But I was looking for kind

612
00:38:15,490 --> 00:38:19,290
of that next step. Tony wasn't really leaving and I wanted

613
00:38:19,290 --> 00:38:22,890
to really get out there. And he's a huge mentor of

614
00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:26,650
mine still to this day. He was on the

615
00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:30,250
show recently. Yeah. With, with you? Yeah. And then I was, we had,

616
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:34,010
I went to visit Katie Leonardini and she, and then

617
00:38:34,010 --> 00:38:37,610
he walked in and then, you know, they're dating,

618
00:38:37,610 --> 00:38:40,650
whatever. So I'm very happy for them. We wanted to have, they wanted to have

619
00:38:40,650 --> 00:38:42,810
dinner that night. We couldn't do, we're gonna do next time we come up. But

620
00:38:42,810 --> 00:38:46,650
it was a great conversation at the Mondavi

621
00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:50,170
building in Napa. But what— that's an amazing career. And then, and you, you

622
00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:53,370
got exposed to Toccolone, which is like an incredible vineyard

623
00:38:56,490 --> 00:39:00,170
site in the history of the third. I mean, beautiful Chimorosa Vineyard we worked

624
00:39:00,809 --> 00:39:04,330
with on Howell Mountain and Spring Mountain. I mean, it's

625
00:39:04,490 --> 00:39:08,330
so many great vineyards that we got to work with. Morosoli, which was

626
00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:11,810
a huge factor in why I came

627
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:16,250
to Sequoia. But basically, somebody from Sequoia reached out to

628
00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:20,010
me, and I go back to those two things, right? Great vineyards, great

629
00:39:20,010 --> 00:39:23,610
people. Well, I think back to college when I got

630
00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:26,850
that amazing scholarship from the family, the Koch family

631
00:39:27,490 --> 00:39:30,850
that owns Sequoia Grove, and I was like, well, these are people who've been in

632
00:39:31,010 --> 00:39:34,610
the wine industry for 100 years.

633
00:39:34,610 --> 00:39:38,380
They've had Cobrand for 80 years. They know what's

634
00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:41,900
going on. They understand the industry and they were

635
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:44,540
looking to buy new vineyards and

636
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:49,900
they were looking to kind of take where they are and

637
00:39:50,460 --> 00:39:54,300
kind of go forward

638
00:39:54,380 --> 00:39:57,980
and try to improve their recognition and all those types of things. And I think

639
00:39:57,980 --> 00:40:01,620
it was an amazing opportunity. It reminded me of what

640
00:40:01,620 --> 00:40:05,380
I had done at Amici Cellars with Tony, and this was like this

641
00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:08,940
opportunity to be like, can I build a team? Can

642
00:40:09,020 --> 00:40:12,740
I help to improve culture? Can I help to take this

643
00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:16,260
brand that has such great

644
00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:20,060
historical value and this wonderful location, stay true to what

645
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:23,780
it is, but really take it to the next step and the

646
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:27,140
next level? That's a pretty interesting trek. Ramsgate, you go

647
00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:30,660
from X cases to 200,000, which is a big size winery. You go to Louis

648
00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:33,020
Jadot, which makes probably

649
00:40:34,930 --> 00:40:38,210
what, 100 different Burgundies? You're at Harland, which is, you

650
00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:42,170
know, their marketplace is basically controlled, completely controlled, and they

651
00:40:42,170 --> 00:40:45,890
sell everything they make, and it's to collectors. Though I was

652
00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:49,610
able to finagle a couple of bottles through a— I showed somebody

653
00:40:49,610 --> 00:40:53,450
last night at my house, the cellar. It says it's the Reserve,

654
00:40:53,450 --> 00:40:56,530
and it says not for resale on the back label. Like, how'd

655
00:40:57,570 --> 00:41:01,410
you get it? But, and then we don't talk about that. Yeah, we—

656
00:41:01,410 --> 00:41:04,970
and then with Tony, but You know, Sequoia Grove, this is

657
00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:10,050
the question is really, that's a

658
00:41:10,050 --> 00:41:13,290
public-facing market for the Sequoia Grove wines. You, you're slugging it out

659
00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:16,770
with the rest of Napa. And the one thing that I came away with Wine

660
00:41:16,770 --> 00:41:20,610
Parish from, and I get these epiphanies like you do. Mm-hmm. I told my wife

661
00:41:20,610 --> 00:41:24,330
when I got back from the first day, I said, you know, there's

662
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:27,290
6,000 vendors here with probably 100,000 SKUs,

663
00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:31,290
and it's just this minuscule, minuscule part of the wine trade when it comes

664
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:35,180
to the total volume. And it's probably the only product in the world where they're

665
00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:37,540
all slugging it out for the same shelf

666
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:41,940
space and the same restaurant pour and all the rest of the things that we

667
00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:44,820
seek in the wine trade. You know, not all of it,

668
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:48,940
but 99% of it. I don't know of any other product like that. Then

669
00:41:49,620 --> 00:41:53,380
the point being, now you're at a winery where you've, you know, you

670
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:57,180
gotta show what's up because you're up against all the rest of them.

671
00:41:57,180 --> 00:42:00,310
How's that feel? And what's, What's the philosophy that I

672
00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:04,990
think it's been, I really appreciate that part of the industry. And then Meechi

673
00:42:05,350 --> 00:42:08,830
was like that too. We had a $50 Napa

674
00:42:08,830 --> 00:42:11,710
cab as well, and Sequoia's $55

675
00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:16,590
or $60. I think the opportunity, the

676
00:42:16,590 --> 00:42:20,030
other thing that I love about what I got into

677
00:42:20,830 --> 00:42:24,270
food and wine, it's makes people feel happy. Like you have the ability

678
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,640
to kind of bring bring some joy maybe on days where, you

679
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,760
know, people are struggling or, or not, you know, and I think

680
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,200
there's, there's a great sense of

681
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,320
satisfaction in doing that. But, you know, you actually, you have to

682
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,320
have access to it. And there's so many people that, you know, are

683
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,960
never going to taste a bottle of Harlow. They're never

684
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,440
going to taste even maybe a $100 bottle, maybe

685
00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:55,250
even a $50 bottle. And I think the opportunity to make great

686
00:42:55,250 --> 00:42:58,250
wine, that's not what most people drink. Most people

687
00:42:59,530 --> 00:43:03,170
drink wines that are affordable, that they can drink on a daily basis

688
00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:06,890
or every other day or on Tuesday. And I think the

689
00:43:07,809 --> 00:43:11,450
ability to meet those people is just

690
00:43:11,690 --> 00:43:13,050
as exciting. I

691
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:19,520
think it's an opportunity to really reach. Reach more.

692
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,120
And I think that's, that's what was great

693
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,200
about the idea of getting into the larger production. And I think

694
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,880
there's, there's just more opportunity. I think, you know,

695
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,600
at the top end, we, we have those wines and I

696
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,200
love improving those and kind

697
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,680
of in involving new vineyards and kind of

698
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,670
like expanding the lineup with, with what we've done

699
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:49,870
over the past 6 years here at Sequoia Grove in

700
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:53,150
terms of investment in the

701
00:43:54,190 --> 00:43:57,790
property, investment in estates, and really trying to expand

702
00:43:58,110 --> 00:44:01,950
our footprint and understand that we can represent,

703
00:44:01,950 --> 00:44:05,550
stay true to our history, which is so

704
00:44:05,550 --> 00:44:08,590
wealthy. I think we've been around for almost 50 years

705
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,640
and it's exciting. And I think it's time that

706
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,320
it, people really pay attention. And I love the

707
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,240
fact that it's not as in your face, you know, it's kind of a

708
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,080
little place off the strip, you

709
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,720
know. I know that they were making those investments when Molly was

710
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:33,480
leaving. And so it was quite substantial in equipment and she was very excited

711
00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:38,370
about talking about it. But you know, there's

712
00:44:38,370 --> 00:44:41,930
something important. There's a couple of pieces here that you brought up that I wanted

713
00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:45,930
to bring. My specialty when I was selling wine, the oldest

714
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:49,610
direct-to-consumer business in America, was $20, right?

715
00:44:49,610 --> 00:44:52,930
And when we started that brand, when we started the company in the '70s, my

716
00:44:52,930 --> 00:44:55,810
father did, and even through most of my tenure, it wasn't until the

717
00:44:56,450 --> 00:45:00,170
last few years that these sort of Trader Joe's finds

718
00:45:00,620 --> 00:45:04,420
were harder to find. Trader Joe's started on the idea that there was

719
00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:08,140
2,000 bottles of something in the back room of some winery. 'Cause

720
00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:11,940
as you know, it's agricultural. You never know, you know, what the

721
00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:15,420
demand's gonna be like. And so that's how it started and Wine of the Month

722
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:18,780
Club, my business was like that. We found amazing things. I

723
00:45:19,460 --> 00:45:23,260
had an interview with Sebastiani with, and a

724
00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:26,820
couple, few months ago and I re— it struck

725
00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:30,650
me, I bought pallets of of a Sebastiani Cabernet Franc

726
00:45:30,650 --> 00:45:33,730
that they never put on the street. And

727
00:45:34,130 --> 00:45:37,970
I said, you know, this, I think the label, I told him, I think

728
00:45:37,970 --> 00:45:41,290
the label was drawn by your sister or something. He goes, yeah, she was 3

729
00:45:41,290 --> 00:45:44,930
years old. Now he's like 55, right? So when she was 3 years old, she

730
00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:47,330
scribbled on a piece of paper and that was the label. But that's how we

731
00:45:47,330 --> 00:45:50,610
found it. And the point being, that's how we found those wines. And

732
00:45:51,250 --> 00:45:55,020
there was a sour, I think there's a

733
00:45:55,420 --> 00:45:59,100
sour. Taste, pun intended, in some consumers' mouths with these

734
00:45:59,180 --> 00:46:02,460
internet companies that are

735
00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:06,700
featuring 50-cent-a-liter, you know, Valencia white that they bottled in a fancy

736
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:09,740
label and they order it for $5 and then they, it's

737
00:46:10,380 --> 00:46:13,420
just not that good. And that we need the wines like

738
00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:17,780
Sequoia Grove that, that the greatest compliment I ever got at the Wine of the

739
00:46:17,780 --> 00:46:21,140
Month Club was when they joined my entry-level club And they

740
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:25,660
grew out of it. They grew out of the brand and they went

741
00:46:25,660 --> 00:46:29,060
into my premium club or the next club up, which I had a Napa club,

742
00:46:30,260 --> 00:46:33,940
whatever. And that was a huge compliment for them to do that. And

743
00:46:33,940 --> 00:46:34,500
so the

744
00:46:38,820 --> 00:46:42,420
point I'm making is, how do you, how, you know,

745
00:46:42,420 --> 00:46:45,910
Sequoia Grove's an established brand. It's owned by a family

746
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:49,350
that's you know, that's amortized the land. And if you and I

747
00:46:49,350 --> 00:46:53,070
wanted to go into Napa today and buy 5 acres and

748
00:46:53,070 --> 00:46:56,510
try and make a brand, it would be impossible to

749
00:46:57,070 --> 00:47:00,830
sell for less than $200 a bottle, $150 a bottle. How do we get around

750
00:47:01,950 --> 00:47:05,190
that? How do we— well, maybe, maybe that's a good thing for Sequoia Grove. You

751
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:08,870
got a $50 cab that's got pedigree to it. Well, I think it is.

752
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:12,640
One thing I said is when I got here, it's about

753
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,480
controlling your own destiny, right? You want the ability to control

754
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,280
your own destiny, be part of the market, but also have estate

755
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,680
vineyards. And I think it's important to understand

756
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,960
that Sequoia Grove has almost doubled its estate in

757
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,440
the last 6 years and really taken

758
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,880
a position on this idea that we want to be able to

759
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,800
control our price because for 40 years, the cost of

760
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,600
fruit has gone up, has skyrocketed. Yes. And

761
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,400
it's nuts every year. So to kind of control our price

762
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,160
is really difficult. I mean, you open up the bottle, it's an $80

763
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,960
bottle, it's a $90 bottle. It's not that price, but

764
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,800
that's because we control our estate. We farm it in-house. We

765
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,640
have an amazing farming team and it's been doing it from the

766
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,260
beginning. So when I came on, we had 2 vineyards

767
00:48:05,410 --> 00:48:09,070
based in Ro— there's the winery estate, and then there's

768
00:48:09,070 --> 00:48:12,850
the old historic, uh, Tinella property. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that's over on the eastern

769
00:48:12,850 --> 00:48:16,690
side. So we have the western side of Rutherford, eastern side of

770
00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:20,170
Rutherford. We're really based in Rutherford. That's where our

771
00:48:20,170 --> 00:48:23,810
history is. Andre Tchelitchev consulted with Jim

772
00:48:23,810 --> 00:48:27,610
Allen, founder, from when we started up until the day he passed away, um,

773
00:48:27,610 --> 00:48:30,930
made some of the best wines that Sequoia

774
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:35,340
Grove was recognized for. From '85, Best Wine in America,

775
00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:38,740
'87, Best Wine in America,

776
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:42,500
'88, Best Winery in America from the International Wine Review in the

777
00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:46,580
'80s. So pretty well-regarded publication back then. Yeah. Made some amazing

778
00:48:46,580 --> 00:48:50,180
wines that really put Sequoia on the map

779
00:48:50,180 --> 00:48:52,980
where it is. They had just purchased

780
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:57,540
the State Lane Vineyard. So that's right next to Cap Shandy and Goose Cross,

781
00:48:57,540 --> 00:49:01,340
kind of in the eastern side.

782
00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:04,980
Of Yountville. So on the eastern side of

783
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,700
the river, really river rock, gorgeous soils, the most boring looking vineyard from

784
00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:12,300
the top. I mean, it's just sticks in the ground and it looks flat right

785
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:15,900
along the river. But you start digging there, you start digging some soil pits,

786
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:18,820
you got topsoil for about 16 inches and

787
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:23,060
then it's just round river rock for another 10. Wow. How

788
00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:26,420
interesting. And it's just beautiful, beautiful wines that are

789
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:31,350
coming out of that. And then in '23, after I came on, I

790
00:49:31,350 --> 00:49:34,910
helped them find our newest property, which is on the top of Mount

791
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:37,350
Veeder, right next to Mayacamas, the

792
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:42,469
old Veeder Crest property from Haas. But it basically, we share a

793
00:49:42,469 --> 00:49:46,070
property line with Mayacamas.

794
00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:49,750
It's about between 1,700 and 1,900

795
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:52,790
feet elevation. It's two sides of the mountain. So

796
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:56,780
one slope looks at Napa Valley, so kind of

797
00:49:56,780 --> 00:50:00,540
northeast. The other slope looks south, right to the Golden Gate Bridge. You

798
00:50:01,340 --> 00:50:04,860
can see it from there. Wow. Wow. So

799
00:50:05,580 --> 00:50:09,380
really incredible excitement here. We instantly replanted,

800
00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:13,180
did it in two phases, and we're starting to see, well, we

801
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:16,940
had our first wine that mostly comes from

802
00:50:17,340 --> 00:50:20,420
the property in '23. There was a lot of Malbec up there, so it's Cabernet

803
00:50:20,420 --> 00:50:22,780
and a little bit

804
00:50:24,060 --> 00:50:27,540
of Malbec. And then in '24, we have another,

805
00:50:27,540 --> 00:50:31,020
we have a Veder property, we have a Veder

806
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:35,900
Y, and then in '25 and '26, we'll probably turn

807
00:50:36,060 --> 00:50:39,820
it into an estate Veder because it'll be 100%

808
00:50:39,820 --> 00:50:43,526
from our estate. And then we have our other estates. So '23,

809
00:50:43,594 --> 00:50:47,100
we'll have the State Lane as well. So really 2023 is one

810
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:50,770
of the most exciting vintages for Sequoia Grove.

811
00:50:51,010 --> 00:50:54,650
And it started back, you know, when you were talking about with Molly,

812
00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:58,210
the investment in the modern winery, you know, with automatic pump over

813
00:50:58,770 --> 00:51:02,530
devices on all our tanks, about 40 or

814
00:51:02,530 --> 00:51:05,890
so tanks, which has really allowed us to kind of

815
00:51:06,690 --> 00:51:10,530
focus on the winemaking. And then we have these 4 vineyards that are

816
00:51:10,530 --> 00:51:13,740
now producing their own vineyard designate wines and are also

817
00:51:13,740 --> 00:51:17,560
going into our Lapa Cab. You know, there's always a little bit that

818
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,840
kind of falls through. They're part of our reserve blend. They're part

819
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,600
of some of our varietal wines that we're making

820
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,320
for DTC. But we decided to not only

821
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,000
plant Cabernet Sauvignon, but we're planting all

822
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,440
5 Bordeaux varietals. It's about 65% Cab,

823
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,960
but all 5 Bordeaux varietals. We're going to plant Syrah because we have

824
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,590
a huge following for Syrah. We have for

825
00:51:44,590 --> 00:51:48,150
20 years. And then we're planting Chardonnay because the first wine

826
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:51,950
we ever made was Napa Valley Chardonnay, 1979. That was

827
00:51:51,950 --> 00:51:54,710
the first one that ever came out. So it's always been a part

828
00:51:56,070 --> 00:51:59,830
of who we are. I really, what I love about Sequoia Grove

829
00:51:59,910 --> 00:52:03,030
is 3 things. One, and I think it's true to the brand, it's, you

830
00:52:03,590 --> 00:52:07,310
know, the historical aspect, the based in Rutherford, but also the based in

831
00:52:07,310 --> 00:52:10,230
Napa Valley. And I try to stay true to that. I think it would've been

832
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:13,390
easy to go out And I would lie if I said I didn't go there

833
00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:16,910
because I love the idea of the Chardonnay program. But

834
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:20,490
because I love making Chardonnay, I love drinking Chardonnay. It doesn't matter where it's from.

835
00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:23,670
A lot of it's from Burgundy, but I love the other stuff too. We could

836
00:52:24,070 --> 00:52:27,750
talk about that later. But I could have gone to Sonoma Coast

837
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:31,550
and got some great vineyards. But what I did instead was this, like, what is

838
00:52:31,550 --> 00:52:34,870
true to Sequoia Grove? What's going to work with the brand? Makes sense.

839
00:52:34,870 --> 00:52:38,550
Let's find the best Chardonnay vineyards in Napa

840
00:52:38,550 --> 00:52:42,350
Valley. And so in 2023, we started working with the Hyde family,

841
00:52:42,350 --> 00:52:46,030
which I've been working with since Ramsgate in

842
00:52:46,030 --> 00:52:49,670
2011. And then in '24, we started working with

843
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:54,190
the Hudson family. And so in '23, we'll have our first

844
00:52:54,190 --> 00:52:57,510
Hyde Chardonnay. '24, we'll have

845
00:52:57,750 --> 00:53:01,510
our first Hudson Chardonnay. And a little bit of those and

846
00:53:01,510 --> 00:53:05,200
more this year for Hudson will go into our Napa Valley program

847
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,000
as well. And then when we, when the wine comes online, the

848
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,680
grapes come online on Mount Veeder, we'll probably make a vineyard designate

849
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,280
for Mount Veeder. And some of that also might go into our

850
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,160
Napa Valley Chardonnay. So, well, you know, if you, if you just, sorry to interrupt

851
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,160
you. If you discuss, you know, if you talk with

852
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,080
Beau Barrett about, about Montelena, and of course, yeah, the thing he'll tell you, we've

853
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,040
always a red house. We didn't, you know, we didn't even make that much

854
00:53:30,850 --> 00:53:34,410
Chardonnay and we have, old family history with the Barrett's, 'cause my dad's store was

855
00:53:34,410 --> 00:53:38,210
in Palos Verdes and they were neighbors. I used to surf with his younger

856
00:53:38,210 --> 00:53:41,410
brother, Kevin, though he didn't appreciate my surfing

857
00:53:42,530 --> 00:53:45,690
skills much, but whatever. But you know, we're gonna, we have to wrap this up.

858
00:53:45,690 --> 00:53:49,370
It's already been almost, it's coming on an hour, but we should

859
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:53,090
definitely do this again because there's so much more to talk about. But all of

860
00:53:53,090 --> 00:53:56,860
the things you just said, and let's wrap up

861
00:53:56,860 --> 00:54:00,460
with this. Were all the things that you need to do as

862
00:54:00,460 --> 00:54:04,140
a winemaker to be innovative, uh, in the— let's call it the back

863
00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:07,940
house of the wine business, you know, versus the front house.

864
00:54:07,940 --> 00:54:11,500
And yeah, and

865
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:15,260
that drives the consumer curiosity, hopefully. To me, it made a ton of

866
00:54:15,420 --> 00:54:18,580
sense what you're saying, but most people aren't going to know the difference. And I'm

867
00:54:18,580 --> 00:54:22,090
going to highlight it this way. We were at Clos Pagage years ago with

868
00:54:22,090 --> 00:54:25,650
some friends, and my buddy now gets it, but at that time he

869
00:54:25,650 --> 00:54:29,410
didn't. And we were drinking some vineyard-designated

870
00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:33,170
Cabernet. I think they're generic Cab. And he goes, I think what you guys

871
00:54:33,490 --> 00:54:37,330
do, and I'm gonna paraphrase this, is a bunch

872
00:54:37,330 --> 00:54:40,250
of bullshit. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you know, you talk

873
00:54:40,250 --> 00:54:43,570
about this flavor and that flavor and you're gonna this and you're swirling and stuff.

874
00:54:43,570 --> 00:54:46,010
I said, yeah, that's true. I said, well, let me just do it this way.

875
00:54:46,010 --> 00:54:49,410
I said, you have two Cabernets in front of you. They're both the same grape.

876
00:54:49,410 --> 00:54:52,920
They're from the same winemaker. They're in the same barrels. They

877
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,320
use the same barrels and they're from different parts

878
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,400
of Napa Valley and they're both the same vintage.

879
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,000
So are they different? And he tastes them, he goes, yeah, they're different. I go,

880
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,680
you're on your way. So, you know,

881
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,480
you can't describe the difference. And I'm thinking that all

882
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,840
that backhouse stuff you're talking about in Mount Veeder and digging your hand in the

883
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,110
soil and finding stones are the things you need to know and understand

884
00:55:20,270 --> 00:55:23,670
and innovate to get to bring to the

885
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:27,470
table something that the consumer goes, whoa,

886
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:31,150
there's something special about this beverage. And the Mount Veeder

887
00:55:31,150 --> 00:55:34,710
one might strike home with somebody and you make a Chardonnay from a different, from

888
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:38,510
the Howell Mountain versus the Mount Veeder Mountain and they're gonna taste

889
00:55:39,470 --> 00:55:43,230
different. One of those might just say to somebody, wow. And

890
00:55:43,230 --> 00:55:47,080
so I guess that's our task here in the wine trade

891
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,800
is to, continue to wow people, but in the

892
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,720
back house, 'cause most people aren't gonna wanna hear what you just said.

893
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,120
They're not gonna care. I wanna do this again because we haven't talked

894
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,240
about food pairing and we talked about wines. We haven't

895
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,680
talked about the characters, but this was a really fun conversation

896
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,160
and your experience is amazing. And what I pulled out of it, what I

897
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:14,910
wrote down here is doer. A

898
00:56:14,910 --> 00:56:18,710
doer. You're, you, you, you're one of the— you just do

899
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:22,070
stuff, you know, you're excited about it. Yeah.

900
00:56:22,070 --> 00:56:25,830
But maybe that's the hospitality in you.

901
00:56:25,830 --> 00:56:29,470
I think it's, um, yeah, it absolutely is. It's, it's

902
00:56:29,470 --> 00:56:33,030
providing great experiences, and it's because I didn't come

903
00:56:33,030 --> 00:56:36,750
from this, you know. I, I fell for it, you know. I mean, I had

904
00:56:37,070 --> 00:56:40,880
the food bug from, from Probably my mom and cooking in the kitchen

905
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,440
with her. But I think that, you

906
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,280
know, this idea of hospitality, I think, is something so beautiful in

907
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,080
so many ways. It's like you're providing experiences that

908
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,720
just, you know, I mean, they come with people, you come

909
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:59,120
with friends, you have these great

910
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,280
conversations, you're having this food, this

911
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:07,230
beverage that's so enjoyable. And I think it's why people want

912
00:57:07,230 --> 00:57:10,990
to do the things they do. You know, it's why they want to travel. It's

913
00:57:10,990 --> 00:57:14,590
part of traveling. And we're kind of right

914
00:57:14,590 --> 00:57:18,270
there that really can set those moments that people could

915
00:57:18,270 --> 00:57:21,869
say, you know, this was such an amazing experience. And to be able to provide

916
00:57:21,869 --> 00:57:25,470
that, I think, is giving people

917
00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:29,310
happiness, which has been that, I guess, that thing in the back of

918
00:57:29,310 --> 00:57:32,630
my head about what I wanted to do, right? It's to provide

919
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,320
that in some way. And make the world a little bit better

920
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,000
just by providing great experiences for people. Let's leave it at that and we'll

921
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,840
pick it up next time because we have lots to talk about. Absolutely. Well,

922
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,640
it was a pleasure being here. Thanks for inviting me, Paul. It was my pleasure.

923
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,880
And we're, we're going to come see you. We're going to come see you pretty

924
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,600
soon. I actually, I'm due up, I don't know, probably in the

925
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,760
early April to do some podcasting. So maybe we catch

926
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,760
a glass with Tony. Oh yeah, that'd be a great time. It always is with

927
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,680
them. It is. I know. So much. Cheers. All right. Cheers.