Ancient Grapes and Modern Wines: Journey of Juliana Del Aquila

0:00 The value of our land for Armenians is very important, and to really, to have the possibility of creating something that can be carried in a bottle and around the world, that is a piece of Armenia, for me is, yeah, kind of magic. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks. Today we are so excited because We have in studio as a surprise guest who just flew in from Washington, D.C. and who just came from Argentina as well. This is Paul Callum Carey and we are on Spotify, iTunes, and Google Play. Anytime you wanna check out a wine talk, we have plenty up there now. You can hang out with us for a little bit. But an old friend's in studio, Juliana de la Guila. That's right. I think last time I said that wrong as well. No, I think you got it right this time. You're also joined by Ricardo Rebelo. They are both with the Kadas Wine organization in Armenia, which we're going to talk about a little bit because Armenia has become quite a mainstay in the Los Angeles market anyway for wine, as well as Fin de Mundo. That's right. Fin del Mundo. Fin de Mundo, the wines in Argentina, which you just found out were from Patagonia, which is great. We'll talk about that in a little bit. But I do want to say there is a growing awareness of Armenian wine in the Los Angeles market. Now, I mean, obviously the

1:32 Armenians are a huge community here, but up until I'd say about really like 6 to 9 months ago, the wines had been distributed by ethnic distributors. And typically they're not very good at selling things. They don't— You think so? We don't sell wine, that's for sure. One day, this is off the subject a little bit, but this gentleman came in to sell me some wine and he was an Armenian distributor and I'm happy. I'll taste anything and everything. And he says, don't worry, I brought the glasses. And then he brings out two plastic cups to taste his wines with us. We can do better than that. Okay, so, but really, a winery called Kimberly, a wine supplier called Kimberly Jones, one called Garber. Then a great article in the AGV magazine recently about Armenian wines. So then I had a master sommelier here, the first master, the first winemaking master sommelier in America. His name is Emmanuel Kimiji, and he produces wine in Santa Ynez up the coast, and he also produces wine in Pirarat, Spain. So I got him on camera and we're talking, and he says, I just came down from Sacramento with the Cordy brothers. Now, Darrell Cordy is one of the most famous retailers in America. His store's in Sacramento. He's a friend of my dad's.

2:53 And he says, you know, he poured me some Armenian wine. It was pretty good. That's good news. Yes, right? And then he says, now I got to learn about that. You don't know about Voskahat and Arany and those things? But more importantly, he says, now I have to compete with them. He goes, because there are really good values. So Kadas has been around how long now? 10 years now. 2010. Yeah, but the winery and the first vintage of wine was made in 2010. So, wow. So you've sorted out almost 10 years. We— when you were here 3 years ago, we were tasting some wines. I don't remember the varietals, but how many brands now, or how many varietals are you guys growing out there? Yeah, we're growing a lot actually. We've been doing a lot of, um, investigation and a lot of development with the Armenian grapes. Um, Until now, what we did in Armenia, just for those that don't know anything about Armenia, is that— Most people. Most people.

3:49 Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, and during the Soviet Union, Armenia was in charge of making brandy for the Union. So, the ancient tradition of winemaking was lost during that time. And when we started with Karaz, the idea was to be a part or be pioneers in the rebirth of Armenian viticulture. So when we started with Karaz, nobody was making wine in Armenia. Nobody was talking about wine in Armenia. So it was quite a big hit. And now, a couple of years later, winemaking in Armenia is very important. It's an industry that is very, very strong and the wines are getting very good. So when we were there, I was there in 2007 or '06.

4:35 And we stopped at a few wineries and they were really, really not good. And so there was no technology, of course. But it's amazing to me because they unearthed that winery is 6,000 years old, one of the only intact wineries ever known. The first one. Yeah. Yeah. Noah landed the ark on thing and planted grapes. Who knows where the indigenous grapes are from? But yeah. So the technology came when you came then. That's right. And in that first winery in Arení, What, what people found, what the, like, scientists or whoever is doing, you know, what they found is that the first wine ever made in history of mankind was made out of Areni. No, really? Yes.

5:20 And so back that up a little bit. Yeah. We determined that— I've never read that. Pretty recently, or— No. Yeah, when they discovered the, the cave and started doing the ampellographic studies. That's right. Ampellography. Great, great. So, so all of the Vitis vinifera and the grapes that we know today, that we make wine of, are supposed to be like descendants of this Areni. Wow. That's pretty interesting. Now, so I have to tell you, when I got back from Armenia in 2007 and I had such a miserable experience tasting the wines, I went to look up the grapes that we tasted to see if they actually were Vitis vinifera, because I thought, well, maybe they're Vitis labrusco. No, they are. Some of them. I mean, there's a lot to study.

6:07 I mean, there are lots of grapes that we, well, people make wine from in Armenia and they are not Bitis vinifera, but well. No, like, I was gonna talk about this in a little bit, but we don't have any in California as well. We have all the vines we have were brought here. Mm-hmm. And I mentioned that on a podcast or a video with, and a customer called and said, that's not true. You have Concord grape wines, which they make jelly out of for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. It's not been as— Well, that happens everywhere then. That's terrible. So tell me, how did you land where you, why did you choose the location for Kadas as it is? So who started the project was my great uncle Eduardo Ornikian. And what he thought, he was already making wine in Argentina, in Patagonia.

6:59 And what he did in Armenia, he saw that Armenia had this tradition that was forgotten. And he's still very committed with Armenia and with the future of Armenia and the present. So, what he thought was, how can I make something, a project that is long-term, that creates a lot of jobs, but also that creates a product that can be taken to the world and talk about Armenia and really make Armenians proud of it. So, he thought about wine. And the only piece of land that he thought was suitable for what he wanted to do was in Armavir, in the Ararat Valley, due to the conditions, the natural conditions, and also because that's where he could find, like, a big piece of land where to settle down. And so, in 2007, he started preparing the land for planting. It was a desert. And in 2000 and— between 2007, it took 2 years to prepare the land. And in 2007, 2008, he planted the first vines.

8:04 And he rented a little winery nearby to make the first wine, taking Michel Roland with him. Oh, wow. Michel Roland. Michel Roland, yes. Incroyable. And so the quality of the wine was very good. And in 2012, he decided to build the winery. So that's interesting because you said Michel Rolland. I know that, uh, I think Armas has an Italian winemaker. Yeah. Um, and we don't have the know-how, or at least that we didn't. Now we're bringing in Europeans who've, who've worked with that. Now they got to learn stuff, new things. They have to learn new terroir, they have to learn new grapes, they have to learn new vinification for that, new canopies, uh, you know, the whole part.

8:44 Yeah. And it's a, it's a completely different place in the world. I mean, it's not that you can make wine everywhere, and in Armenia, really, we can find the perfect conditions to make wine and really good ones. So you irrigate there? Do you have to put water on the vines there? Is it all naturally dry? Um, no, we irrigate from— we take water from a water reservoir that is actually on the Turkish side, and we bring it. It's all Soviet system, like the channels and everything. Yeah, so So how many varietals are you growing in those vineyards and how big is it? So we have 400 hectares of vines. 400 hectares of vines? Wow. Yes, but some of it, um. That's a lot of wine you're making.

9:28 No, but because half of it is, um, they're vines for like produce grapes for the brandy industry that we sell. Oh, I see. Okay. That we sell to distilleries. That's interesting. Yeah. And the other half is for wine and The design of our vineyard is a little bit different because what we thought is that we tried to bring back home all the different, like, descendants of Areni and bring them back home to Armenia. So we have all different kinds of grapes. Where'd you go look for those descendants? For example, we have Malbec from Argentina, we have Montepulciano Ancelotta, we have Cabernet Franc, we have Syrah. And of course Armenian varieties. So, okay.

10:17 That was one of my questions because initially, uh, the Armenian trade with, in the proud Armenian state, we're all Armenians and we are proud of our culture, but they were, there was almost a resistance to the French varietals as well as the, uh, Italian varietals. But I think it's, well, Armenians are always resistant to anything that is changed. Um, but now, I mean, there are a lot of wineries that are making really good wine. Um, not only Karas, and they're— most of them are using international varieties also. I haven't seen much. I mean, but it's, it's very— I mean, I think it's very important to play with different things. I mean, we need to find the right potential and to really explore the potential of the Armenian varieties, but also, uh, see how other varieties that are around the world behave in Armenia, you know. Well, it's a, it's a My newest passion, and this is a very personal thing, but it's taken me 30 years. I've tasted maybe over 100,000 wines.

11:20 I've spoken to many people like you and some, Jacques Laddier from Louis Jadot. And yesterday we had the owner of Château Talbot in here, the fourth-growth Bordeaux. But it's come down to this, and it's for me, and wine is about the experience. And I think for the Armenian culture, it's It's a very important experience. But when you are looking for wine and you want to sit with your friends or your family and you want to have a glass of wine and you want to have a good meal with that wine, it's different than having a beer or a bottle of Scotch, right? And it should connect you to this earth. I really believe this, right? Well, I have the same thoughts. And actually, I had that, like, this kind of— existential experience with Armenia. I think it's right. Because I think it's very like the value of land and the value of our land for Armenians is very important. And to really, to have the possibility of creating something that can be carried in a bottle and around the world that is a piece of Armenia, for me is kind of magic.

12:27 Coming from that, then we want vines that go deep, that find the soil, that find the shale of whatever we're growing in to express that in the grapes and the vines. So feel it because that's where it comes from. Of course. And it's the passion of making sure that you— Yeah. And our, our vines are, I mean, they overlook the Ararat. I mean, it's impossible not to feel that when you drink the wine. That's great. So are you experimenting with the French and Italian varietals or you have them planted and you are bottling them that way? Are you blending with those wines or what? Blending. Just, yes, blending. Okay. So in the AGBU magazine, which I was trying to bring up on the computer here, but I couldn't find it. There, I didn't know how many varietals. I mean, I've only tasted probably 7 or 8 Armenian varietals, but there are a lot. No, there are a lot. A lot.

13:11 These, not all of them are very good. Yeah. Well, I suppose, but some are really, really interesting. Today, uh, somebody brought me a Georgian, uh, orange wine. It was like unpalatable. The millennials like that stuff. I don't like it. I like them a little bit. Some. So, when we're making these Italian, these ancient varietals. And I just had a winemaker from Italy and he's in from Campania. So he, he actually is finding old vines that he's taking the DNA and figuring out that it's some older Italian thing. And he's replanting these things and making some really interesting wines. Because it's not supposed to taste the same, right? Yeah. You have a different grape, you got to do something else different. Of course. Of course. So has the, has the marketplace for Karas changed to the West? Has it moved West a little bit? Is there still mostly Asia Minor and, you know, the Georgian, Russian? No, I think, I think that the, the interest for Armenian wines is growing a lot, uh, especially because people like the, the wine delivers. It's not only the story that is very interesting, but the wine is really interesting too and tells something different. Yes. But also like, It's very special to find a place that has this millennial history with wine, but it's at the same time very new. And our wines, for example, they have this special character, but at the same time they're very modern, but they're not.

14:44 They come from Armenia, which is an ancient land. So it's very special and people are very curious about it. So not the winemaker that is— I'm stumbling over my words here. They're learning, like, for instance, does Otani like oak? Does Otani like French oak? I think we are all learning because we are— I mean, the history that we've done is very short. Yes. Michel Rolland always tells me this thing that it makes me a little bit nervous, but he says, to make wine, you need— we only need 100 years. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, what? I just started. 5, 7, 8. Yeah. Well, actually the wine, the proprietor of, of Château Thabaud was saying that his winery is 100 years old.

15:29 You know, I suppose that's valid, but I think in today's— But that's the interesting thing. I mean, my great uncle, he started this project and me and my, me and my brothers, we are continuing the project. And I mean, this is something that is going to be like forever. I mean, this is going to pass to our children and to their children. And true, it's, it's a, like a, It's something for Armenia. It's for Armenia and it's for the family. And for the family. And it's, you know, wine's about the story. You know, I love the fact that I've been doing this for 30 years and my dad invented this whole industry about direct to consumer, you know, 30 years ago. But when you're having wine and we're talking about this passion and sensing the soil and sensing the family, and this is the way I, I'll tell two stories from that. One is in America, we have this huge problem with Groupon wines.

16:22 The last Groupon offer I just saw was $45 for 15 bottles of wine. Wow. And a free corkscrew. Wow. And it's junk. I mean, I'm just telling you, I know it's junk because I know where they're getting it. They're paying €1, 50,000-gallon bladders from who knows where in Europe and bringing it here and bottling it under these brands. It's terrible. That's not an experience, right? How can you have an experience and taste some wine with some friends or family and go, you know, I bought this for $3. That's not a good experience, right? No. As well, I get a lot of customers that'll text me from vacation and they'll be in Italy and they say, I'm at the restaurant and they take a picture of the back label and they send it to me and they ask if I can get the wine and I get them the wine, same vintage, same grape, everything's the same. And then they say it doesn't taste the same.

17:08 Yeah, of course not. Well, you're not on vacation in Italy looking at the Parthenon, right? And so that's why I have this new sort of passion about the idea of the experience. It's all about the experience. It is. Yeah. So when I go home tonight, my wife's going to ask for a glass of wine. She's not doing it to catch a buzz, though she does, but it's to just wind down, connect. If I may just add something, apart from experience, I believe that there's a lot linked with emotions. Because you know that one thing is the experience is what you mentioned about being the terroir, the climate, the sun exposure, whatever you want to talk. But then it's emotion because you know, so you say that you are returning back home. So if you are happy, perhaps then you'll take a bottle of wine on a different way.

17:55 That's right. And if you are sad or if you didn't have a very good day, you know, it's— They do taste differently. And emotion. And this is, for instance, what I believe that makes wine different from the beer industry or other industry because you can open a bottle and you can talk a lot about, let's say, different experience, different emotions, how you open it. And you can just express yourself in facing wine, you know? And there is sometimes people say that there is a difference between a wine lover and a winemaker. And basically it says that a winemaker, when he looks Toward the wine, he has to make decisions in terms of blending and the wine lover facing decisions, it takes wines. Yes, that's right.

18:41 Okay. I like that. I have to start using that. That's a great one. That's very funny. Well, it's true though. You, it's about the experience and you mentioned exactly right. If for instance, I'll give you an example that I start working with the Urnequián family and we are, they are building together kind of Urnequián style of, of wine, both in Argentina and in, and in Armenia. And at the beginning, I've been working on the wine industry for the last 25 years, but at the beginning I was a little bit in doubt if I should go or not. And they convinced me because they brought me a bottle of Grand Carache from Armenia. Oh, wow. And I say, how come I was not— He was a hard catch, but that— But I got really enthusiastic about the wine and the experience of what they are doing also, because Juliane didn't mention, but also what they are doing in terms of the community, what they are helping people just around the vineyards and just employing people. And it's quite huge. For instance, I remember that I'm more, in a way, if I may say, more business-oriented.

19:42 And I said, so instead of doing manual crafting, why don't we use just a machine? You know? Yeah, right. And say, no, come on now, because then we'll have people unemployed and this is not our project. It's a different way of looking also. So it's a way of returning towards the country and towards people, something that they receive and something that sometimes you will not find in other type of industries. It's not exclusive from them, but it's a way of looking towards people. And at the end of the day, when you mentioned the terroir, terroir is not only the climate, it's not only the soil, it's also about the soul the soul of the people that works in the vineyard. And this is what they also wanna care and wanna potentiate. Well, so I'm guessing that because of all the latest activity, and I love Vahhegoshkarian with his co-op idea. I think it's a brilliant idea to allow other people the opportunity to make small lots. But the industry must have changed the complexion of Armenian industry in general. I mean, it's provided many jobs and new cultures. Is the government supporting all this? Are they? More or less. Well, you know, The situation in Armenia has been changing. I didn't want to bring up politics. No, no, of course not. But I mean, there is kind of support. Not a lot, but something. They're aware of what's going on. Yeah, yes, they are.

21:08 And but it's mainly sustained by privates. And of course, our view of the industry is to choose everything, or at least as much as we can, Armenian. So that's really helping other industries grow, like bottles, labels, designers. I mean, everything we do, we do it in Armenia. So that's pushing a lot also. That's a whole other subject I would love to touch on. Bottle, glass manufacturing, and of course, and things, you know, when we talk about wine, we talk about food. I have an experiment that I do with my own staff and customers of mine where I give them a glass of wine, red wine, and they taste it. And then I have them bite a cucumber with the skin on, which is bitter. Then they taste the wine again. Typical Armenian pairing. Yes, exactly. Tomatoes. Right. And but it changes the flavor. So and I believe in the world of wine generally, the wines grow up with the foods. Yeah. Right. And that's You go to different parts of the world and you pick ones. But America doesn't have that. California is, you know, we're the new frontier, so we get to create our own cuisine. But in Armenia, these— is there cuisine now that, that's— I know that it's more modern. I know Yerevan's become more modern. It's more— yeah, but it's very interesting what's going on because in the last couple of years, wine bars have been opening in Yerevan. So that's a change. And also,

22:39 like, places where you can't smoke inside. So they are more oriented to wine and food and pairing. But can't smoke inside? Cannot in Armenia? In Armenia, which is a lot. Huge change. Yes. Not every place, but there are a lot of places where you can't smoke. And also in the last couple of years, there are a lot of people from the diaspora that have been going back to Armenia, especially Syrians, Armenians, and The food and the cuisine has changed a lot for good. A lot of the food that, for example, me and my family have in Argentina as Armenians that you couldn't find in Armenia because it was locked, now you can find it and it's delicious.

23:23 So it's— I think Armenia is getting more sophisticated. The food culture. I mean, I love talking about food. My daughter's a baker in New York. She works for a guy that has a Michelin star. So, uh, we, we're always talking about it, but, you know, I think about, I think about the Armenian cuisine we had when we were there. It was very limited. Yeah. Pork, chicken, meat and fish and tomatoes. But they didn't even have ingredients also. Yeah. Right. Now everything is— Do you have social, uh, events at the winery? You know, they have again, jazz parties or whatever those type of things. We do. We do. And how far from Yerevan is it? It's an hour away. Oh, so that's not bad. No, it's right on the, on the border with Turkey. Do you know Sardarabad. Yes. Well, it's on the way to Sardarabad, like 10 minutes from there. Oh, wow. That's, that's, I think that's an important part of the wine trade in general for wherever you go except Bordeaux, France, because they don't open the doors. But other than that, you know, it's like for Napa Valley, it's critical that they have people drive through the train. So I don't know if we wanna shift gears to Argentina a little bit, but I wanted to touch on the idea of, in America there's this term, I have competitors that use this term, but It means nothing in the world of wine, but natural wine, they call it, right? Yeah. And I bring it up with all the winemakers because it's kind of a hoax, right? It doesn't really mean anything except I think if you peel it back enough, it's like how many touch points does the winemaker or the viticulturist or the vineyard manager touch, add, you know, we know we have to sulfur grapes because they'll, they could mildew and then you've got, you

24:54 waste the whole thing. So we're here to make a profit. We wanna make some wine that people can drink and we have to make money, but is there a movement for organic biodynamics sustainable? I think the movement is everywhere. And in Armenia, actually, we're converting our vineyard to organic. Oh, you are? Okay. Yes. What certification? And I mean, we're using the French. It's both European and American. No, no, not Armenian. There's like an. A representative of the certification in Armenia, and that's the. That's the person who controls the production. And also when it comes to natural wines, of course we use natural yeast and we try not to add anything to the, to our wine production. Natural yeast is interesting, right?

25:43 What, I'm sorry, but what is unnatural? Even if you buy the yeast, if it came off of grapes, it's, it was harvested. Why is that unnatural? I, I, I mean, it's the one that is there. I mean, you can also buy it from Bayer. I don't know. Yeah. So, I don't know. So, so, so we don't, we don't add any, any yeast and, or color or, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's, it's actually quite organic anyway. Anyway, that's the way that we work and we try to keep it clean and very like healthy. And we had a very interesting conversation with the winemaker from Sequoia Grove in Napa and she, she was very esoteric and she's like, you know, really? Farming in itself is unnatural. In other words, yeah, that's true, right?

26:26 You're setting it up, right? Of course. Of course. You have to do that, right? But it sounds like even already you're sort of on a sustainable thing because you're talking about not going to mechanical harvesting. Yeah. Mechanical pieces. You're regenerating. Drip irrigation. I mean, we are very conscious on the way that we manage our production. Yes. So you'll get a certification you can put on the back label. I'm starting a club here that's gonna be focused on sustainable organic biodynamic wines. That's good for people that, that feel like that. I mean, they, they call it, they try to call 'em healthy. I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'll healthy. So, and I, I want to, that'll help me transition to Patagonia a little bit. I, I had a wonderful conversation a couple years ago with Piero Incisa. Mm-hmm. And, uh, well, you know, pedigree history of winemaking and he has this Pinot Noir Farms down that way in Rio Negro. Yeah, in Rio Negro. Fascinating wines. And one of the first conversations I ever had about biodynamic farming, and he's talking about the armadillos coming into the vineyards and there's more worms and ants than there ever been, which I think is great. I think it's great.

27:36 So what's happening in Patagonia with Fin de Mundo? I know that we were talking about we don't have representation in Los Angeles yet, but I can certainly help you find somebody that I know works hard and does a good job. That's important. But how many hectares down there and what are we growing? Well, that's a different project. In Fin del Mundo is in San Patricio del Chañar in Neuquén. So it's the province that is next to Rio Negro where Piero is. And the production there is a big— it's a little bit bigger. We have 800 hectares. And yes. And that's a huge, huge problem. That's huge. And, but the good thing is that, well, I think that wine should be accessible to any pocket.

28:22 So that's actually what we are looking for. Like we have a wide range of wines for different markets and for different possibilities of purchasing a good quality wine. So that's the goal. So the market for the Fin de Mundo, obviously, I mean, I'm just guessing because location. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think Americans would be more receptive in general to Argentinian wines. They already are. But are you, uh, how is that a challenge compared to the Armenians or vice versa? Distribution of those wines? No, I mean, it's not, it's not hard. I mean, you, you go from Patagonia to Buenos Aires and there anywhere else. So, oh, okay. So it's, it's, it's not that hard. It's, it's harder as far as getting the wines to like for instance, China. Is there a market in China for Armenian wines? It is.

29:11 Yes. Yes. And it's growing. No, not really. Not yet. Not yet. But I understood there's a rather large Chinese tourism in Armenia. Is that not? Now, now there is. Yes. Okay. So. But they're not taking the wine home. No. But it's a different reality. Imagine that, I say right now, for instance, Argentina exports to US something like around 20 million cases. So, And Armenia, the production is nothing compared to that, but it's a growing market. Yes. And in what concerns Patagonia, the point is that it's different in terms of climate and in terms of terroir from what you can find in Mendoza due to the fresher nights.

29:53 It's more natural, if in a way, if you can consider, because there are less treatments over there. And of course, in a way, when you want to distribute your wine on the US market or even overseas market. So, you know, it's more easy to find someone interested in an Argentinian wine from Patagonia because it's different from Mendoza. Sure. And in Armenia, there is a growing interest. The good thing for us in terms of working as a group is that we can offer two different proposals from two different places of the world under the same guidance of, Juliana, another style that she want to build up in terms of the wines. And that's the good thing that just from one side and from the other. That's pretty, actually a pretty interesting viewpoint of what's going on out there. I can tell you when I get wines in here to taste, and I taste every Tuesday, my eyes open when I get Patagonia wines because I think they're fascinating.

30:50 So much of it's Mendoza or Salta, those places. And I love getting Patagonia wines, but— you know, in America, we've gone from 4,000 wholesalers to 700. Yeah. Across the country. Yeah. Right. It's because there's consolidation going on. Yeah. So it's become, that side of the market's getting very difficult too. So how does, how does that, how does that play out for the Armenian wines in, in, in America? You have a, is it New York, Michigan, and— No. California? Basically for the time being for us is New York and, and California. Is it? For instance, we just came from a tasting on last Monday at New York and say, even if it's a small basis, but let's say our sales grew by 5 times in the last year. And it was, let's say, testing of our distributor in New York. And it was, let's say, around 700 people. And our table was one of the ones catching more interest from people. Really? Yeah. And then people, in a way, they want to discover, let's say, new varietals and the way that we are mixing up these traditional varietals with the new ones. And as you said, it's a world of experience, you know, and people want to have new experience, new emotions, new things, and to discover. It's true. And it's interesting because let's say in a way, we are not on the mainstream because as a group, we are presenting Armenia and Armenia and again, Patagonia is different. So, we don't have another, it's not just another wine from California or whatever, things that are different. So we are

32:21 getting interest. We just came on a kind of wine tour and paying calls to important wholesalers and distributors here in the US. And in fact, we find interest. We find a lot of interest. We found that there are interest on this type of wines. It's funny because I have a lot of Armenian friends. You know, we were just in Vegas with them. Yeah. 2 of them just built new cellars, beautiful glass doors in the house. Not one Armenian wine in them. And I want to change that for them because all they want is Napa Cabernet. I can't even get them to buy Bordeaux because they don't understand it yet. And I think this is an important thing because the kind of events you're talking about, it can be like GuineaFest. But who showed up at GuineaFest? Armenians. If I may add something also, for instance, we were last March in Provine, which became, let's say, one of the largest wine exhibition in the world. And again, we had a chance to present the two wines together to big importers from Canada, people like Chartonovs or people in Finland or Sweden. And in fact, and even friends from other companies, they came and they taste the wines, the Armenian wines, and they said, oh wow, we are surprised because there's a lot of people talking about wines from this part of the world, but Now we can see the quality on your wines. It's starting in the colors, starting in the tasting, in the flavors, and also in the presentation. Starting in the vineyard, of course.

33:46 Vineyards, yeah. And what— But it just seems to me, and this is why I brought it up and we'll wrap up in a few minutes, but if I look at, let's say, a bottle of Armas, which has got Armenian famous writing in it, it says Voskahat. So I had my wine tasting downstairs. I do it once a month for my customers. We have about 25 people and I poured the vodka hat. And I'm like, they go, what is this? I said, it's vodka hat. But I said, you're never going to walk into a wine shop and say, do you have any vodka hat? Not yet. Unless somebody tells you, unless we do these kinds of things. In Armenia, the only word that I know is kamats, kamats. Yeah, kamats, kamats. So are we going to do these kinds of things? Of course. I think notwithstanding, I think we need to see them at large. Like, for instance, Young's Market, Southern Wine Warehouse, all the local distributors that put on their tastings. These wines need to be poured. Yeah.

34:40 Because the liquor store guy, the restaurant guy has to see these wines. Yeah. And it's important also to pay attention to people that are not specially, like specifically in the Armenian community. Yeah. Because there are lots of people outside the Armenian community that are very interested in tasting the wines and in knowing the story. So, well, like Emmanuel Kamegi was telling me, and you look him up 'cause he's a fascinating guy. He said, when I got my master sommelier in 1995, even though we had featured many Chilean and Argentinian wines in this club by then, in fact, we even featured the 1985 Codascal, the '78 Codascal in 1982. So we were sort of knew these things. But he said even at that time when he got his degree, there wasn't much to study. There wasn't much to know. It was still France, Germany, Italy. America. And now he's learned those things. I think that the fact he tasted Armenian wine at Darrell Corti's place is a huge thing in the microcosm of it because that's a major vendor. And here's a guy that can walk around and say, I'm a master sommelier. I just tasted some really good Armenian wines that were really, really reasonably priced. And I think that's an important thing. I don't know how you do it, by the way. You bring these, make them in Armenia, get them bottled by bottle. Yeah. Bring them over here, get them into the store. And they're what? Like, what's the average price?

35:55 About $16 or $18 for a Karas wine now? Yeah. Something like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, well, it's been a great, great pleasure having you both. We are about to launch a new, a new range called A Tale of Two Mountains that will be more price competitive. It'll be around $12.99, something like that. You're kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Tale of Two Mountains based on the Ararat. That's pretty amazing. On the Ararat. Yeah. Who's in charge of that project? Me. You are. And that was probably actually one of the questions before we cut off. What, what is your, uh, you're going between these two wineries. Mm-hmm. What is your, You're overseeing the whole thing. You're like the— in the French wine, there's the directeur de culture. Is that it? A little bit of both. A little bit overseeing, a little bit doing a lot. So, I mean, it's a family project, so we are working a lot. Well, what do your brothers do? Are they doing anything? Yeah, well, one of my brothers, he's more in the financial part of the business, and the other one is based actually in Patagonia now and learning about the production. And so is he jealous you get to travel? And how do you work with your brother? Because my sister and I would never never work together. Well, no, no, it's, it's really, it's a pleasure to work with them. Yes, I do work with my wife though, and that's a pleasure. That's good. Great having you both here. Uh, we hope we have a chance to do it again next time you're in town. I know you guys are on tour the next couple of days, but this will go up on the podcast in a week or two, and, and we want to bring in some karas. I know that you're with Beaumont right now, right? Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we'll talk, uh, we'll talk to them too. Good. Well, thank you very much. Thank you so much. Cheers. Take care. Bye.