Why Wine Pairing Rules Are Made Up Tim Hanni Explains

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We don't need to change the language of wine

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because there is no

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standardized language of wine. Trying to think there

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is a standardized language is going right back into that

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vertical vacuum. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul K.

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If you're just joining us, this is Wine Talks with Paul KF Master of Wine

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Tim Hanai on the show. And we're catching up on some of our, some of

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our conversations previously and of course, what's been going on on the web. So we'll

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just continue the thoughts as you're going, which is you were talking about

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the vertical versus the horizontal segmentation. And this is an interesting

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thought. And I, I kind of poo pooed it back when

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I first read somebody talk about this. And this is years and years ago, I

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think it was just a distributor or somebody has said, well, the wine

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industry is not doing it right because we should be going out and finding what

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the consumer wants and creating that brand

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versus we're going to toe the line here and we're going to make Shovel

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Blanc the way Shovel Blanc always is or whatever we're talking about. And

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we have to have the consumer come to us.

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I'm assuming that's sort of what you're talking about. Yeah. And,

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and, you know, this, this harkens back for me

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roughly to 1990 and,

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you know, as the wine and food pairing guru of the time, according to

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Janice Robinson, and you know, having passed a Master of

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Wine exam and, and, and I

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knew in my heart of hearts something was, was really wrong.

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And, and I was guru. Well,

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that, what I was saying about why you have this dish

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with that line and all, all this stuff.

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And, and I, I took it to a

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really, really extreme level and I was good at the shtick.

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But I knew in my heart, you know, I could have five wine

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experts, five chefs, and, and five

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consumers, and everybody try this

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magical pairing. And, and the experts

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don't, the chefs don't agree and the consumers don't

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agree. But that's an interesting thought, though. I mean,

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there's another movement that you've probably read about on LinkedIn as you and I hang

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out there, where, God, they're saying that probably most

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people in America, in the world, actually don't care about food pairing

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or don't know what you're talking about anyway, and so don't understand

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what that means to pair food, except that, you know, we should have food with

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wine. But other than that, what's the,

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it. Goes even deeper than that. The French didn't either

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they never did. That's a problem. You know, and so what

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we've done is we've, we've constructed this

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massive delusion, if you will, and,

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and it's now become Wine Education 101.

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People in the industry, people in France can't even look back

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and get that. If you were in some

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region, you know, on the coast where fish was,

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you know, what you did, Normandy and things a la die plaz

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and whatever, because I'm, I am, I am a

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gastronomic nerd and

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trivialist. You had the wine that

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was local. You didn't go out and, and buy

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something else because you were having

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pork versus beef versus fish versus lamb.

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And, and the wines were nothing like anything today.

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Yeah, right. So, so there's really no basis, you know. Oh, well,

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the, the, the, you know,

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lo. Locally grown goes with, with this by some

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magic. That's no truth to that either.

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And if, if you were at the table in France

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back in the 60s, so this isn't like really going back

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a huge amount of time.

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If, if, if you're serving the wine, then,

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and grandmama doesn't like it,

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put a little water and a sugar cube in it and add a splash of

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fruit, lur cassis or, or whatever. Not.

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None of this was ever part of France.

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And, and, and so this started to occur for me.

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Right. You know, in conjunction with learning about critical

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thinking and passing the Master of Wine exam. And also what,

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what I hope we'll get into is the Neurod divergence.

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And, and I'm going, you know, wait a minute, we've got

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this wrong. So, so, and I can back this up

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all day and all night. I've got Larousse Gastronomique sitting in my

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bathroom. And, and it clearly states

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under the fairly large section of wine

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that when serving wine and food, it

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goes through certain protocols, but it clearly states,

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when we serve the finest dishes, bring out the

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Chateau Lafitte, bring out the Romanet,

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the Hermitage,

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or if the guests prefer

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Sauternes, white wines,

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whatever. So if you're serving the fine

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dish, sir, Fine wines, and serve red wine

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or white wine, dry wine or sweet wine. And

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this goes back actually centuries. And then they

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put in a wine and food pairing chart. And this is

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the 1961 Crown edition of Larousse

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Gastronomic. And it shows before the meal,

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serve the port, serve the sherry

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and this and that with the hors d'. Oeuvre,

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serve Montrachet or Chateau Yquem, because

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Chateau Chem was never a dessert wine. We. That's a

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modern construct of the BS of the wine industry.

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And, and Sauterne is in

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crisis. And, and not because the wines

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aren't great, because our absolute

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asinine obsplemib view the sweet

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wine's bad wine, which we'll get into when we get into

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that horizontal, vertical kind of thing. So

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what we've done is we've create. Created this

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absolute mess. Global wine

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consumption is, you know what, whatever data you want to look at, but

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it's a catastrophe. And then

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we wonder why. My mom used to say, and my mom was a great cook

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and she had the books you're talking about. I've got even,

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I don't know, 61 edition of Escofier's book.

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So she always said wine, food is chemistry.

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And so if you look at as pragmatic as food is chemistry, which I think

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people would agree that when you, you know, certain things go well together, certain

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things work and how you. In fermentation of bread. My daughter's a

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trained boulanger. That, that, that is chemistry. Are you

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saying that throw all, throw that idea at the. Out

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the window because really, food pairing. And I'm not gonna say it's, I'm not

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saying it's a hoax because I, I

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don't know, I don't, I don't subscribe to it. And I think the Internet's right

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in the sense that we intimidate people into thinking that you need to understand that

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in order to enjoy a glass of wine and enjoy a meal. And I don't

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agree with that. And that sometimes it is just hocus pocus and the

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chemistry doesn't really matter. So, so let's go back. Let's take it one step

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at your. At a time because

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it becomes very complex. An awful lot of

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people kind of hear about what I do or take a.

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A sound bite or whatever, hate my guts and I'm. I'm the

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devil. We were talking about

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over intellectualization, right? Yes. So

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what happened here's over an old. Over

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intellectualization. And,

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and it is chemistry. We're chemistry. That's

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a very good point. This pen is chemistry. Yes.

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So what happens is we, we glom onto

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metaphors and heuristics, all right, which

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are neurological ways to deal

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with. The. Complexity of

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the universe and kind of break it down into simple terms.

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So I'm going to get to. Yes, wine and food is chem

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chemistry, but not in the heuristic or

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metaphorical sense that we think.

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Just like when people think, oh, it grows together, it goes together.

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I was going to say that. What the, what the hell?

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Yeah, and, and so if,

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if, if we take. Well,

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and, and this is a problem with, with, with talking with

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me. I'm, I want to talk really quickly about the

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difference of horizontal segmentation

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versus vertical segmentation. Let's do it.

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It's, it's really important in, in explaining all this. It,

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it. And, and I finally got

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data to clarify all this in my crazy mind.

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Vertical segmentation is where you

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take a product in the

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product attributes and that experts agree

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this is what the product should be like. This is

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what those who are in the know

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know what the product should be. And then there's all sorts of

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arguments within that. How do you evaluate it? How do you rate it?

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What's terrible? All that, all that, all that BS is happening

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in a, in a vertical conversation.

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And, and what it requires is then, okay,

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oh, you want to learn about wine? This is what you got to learn about.

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Including all these unreserved, unresolved arguments. All

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this bs, all you've got to learn about it to

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appreciate it. I evaluate

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it this way. No, you're stupid. I use points. No, you're

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stupid. I use descriptive metaphors. I'm better than

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you are. And it's, it's all happening in this vacuum

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of a vertical integration. And, and if you don't get

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it, you're too stupid to use the product.

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Okay, that's very well said. Despite the. Yay.

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Thank God. It's the first time in my life I've been able to actually

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have somebody say that about. Honest

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to God, I swear to God, I got it. Maybe.

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So, so, and

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to top all of this off, and this is something going on

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at a really, really high level with my

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mentors and researchers and scientists

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around the world.

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Wine relies on

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sensory science to understand the phenomenon, right?

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Sensory panels and sensory scientists and

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so forth. Well, in the vertical model,

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sensory science is the back ass words way

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to look at things. It's hugely important

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and it's complex and there's all these wonderful, wonderful sensory

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scientists, but it's the

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scientific process within this vertical

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vacuum, if you will. So

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I've been struggling literally for decades

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how to explain all of this and

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whatever. And

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during COVID I

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ran into research and data that I'm always

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looking at more

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from a focus of what's called perceptual science.

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And the difference being sensory science is the product

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up. All right, we're going to

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analyze the product, we're going to talk about the

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sensations and so forth. And again,

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extremely important. But it's really the perception

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that's the important thing. Sensory

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scientists know that they can put together

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this panel of experts and consumers and chefs and

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whatever, and say, I want. Want you to evaluate the

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acidity of this wine, okay. And rate

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it on a heuristic scale. Some people

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in all of these groups are going, oh, that's very pleasant. I like that.

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Some others are saying, oh, it's way too sour.

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Some are going in their head and saying, oh, I see how the racing

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acidity pairs with the food and washes your

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palate, whatever. And you get a shit show. At the end of

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the day, you have no usable data. Racing

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acidity. And then you give

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them something sweet. Oh, this is yucky.

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Overly sweet for beginners and,

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and other people. Consumers are going, oh, I like this.

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And, and. And whatever. So sensory science

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in, in certain

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evaluations and, you know, when

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in use at a, At a winery for doing your

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blends and whatever, absolutely incredible

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work done. But it's the bot. It's in

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the vacuum, the

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horizontal model. And, and this is a guy,

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Henry Moritz. What's. What's his

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name? Howard. Howard

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Mos. Actually Moskowitz,

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uh, in. Invented something called mind

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genomics. And he's the one that created this

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whole thing of horizontal versus whatever. And he did it with

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rep. The first application was Ragu spaghetti

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sauce. And he said, rather than

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us sitting around in our vacuum defining what

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consumers should like and having to tell them they should like it because

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it's authentic and it's Mama's recipe and, and

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all this stuff, why don't we look at consumers from

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the top down and ask them and learn

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about them and what their

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preferences, their expectations and so forth, and

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we can make innumerable

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market segments and then have

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products differentiated for the market.

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Well, I think. Do you think that applies then? I mean, do you think

248
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a bottle of pasta sauce that Mama made. Hang

249
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:19,750
on, I. I think I'll state it here for the first

250
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time. I think this will completely

251
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change forever how wine is looked at and marketed,

252
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that it will allow us to look at

253
00:16:30,750 --> 00:16:34,460
millennials. Not like they all want one thing.

254
00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:38,900
There are millennials who want authenticity

255
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:42,300
in this. There are millennials who want

256
00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:46,020
gamification, and in technology, there

257
00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:48,460
are millennials who want

258
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natural or organic or sustainable.

259
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:55,820
We just don't know how to differentiate it.

260
00:16:57,180 --> 00:17:00,980
So let me stop for a second. I had. Maybe it

261
00:17:00,980 --> 00:17:04,380
was Felicity Carter. I can't remember who I was speaking with, but she said, Somebody

262
00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:08,220
said. And we've tried to talk to the whiners about this and try to

263
00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:11,260
talk to the industry about this. And I hate it when I hear, you know,

264
00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:14,900
Gen Z are saying the industry needs to change because they don't. They have been

265
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,900
in the industry long enough to know what needs to change. But the idea

266
00:17:18,460 --> 00:17:21,980
that, that the traditional,

267
00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:26,500
let's just say the Bordel, the Burgundians, the, the

268
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:30,100
Kean folks just ignore this stuff,

269
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:35,500
Is that accurate? It doesn't matter

270
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:39,180
to me. I don't care. This

271
00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:42,940
is another thing I was telling my wife.

272
00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:46,740
I wish I had come across this, this clarity

273
00:17:49,620 --> 00:17:53,260
in what I'm trying to accomplish before I was at the

274
00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:55,780
age of physical decomposition,

275
00:17:57,940 --> 00:18:01,490
but I honestly don't care. And here's the other thing.

276
00:18:01,490 --> 00:18:05,170
Here's the other thing, Paul. This is so important for

277
00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:08,690
the people who have a formula, who have their wines

278
00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:12,690
sold out on allocation, who don't have to discount it, who

279
00:18:12,690 --> 00:18:16,050
don't they've got their distribution. They.

280
00:18:17,650 --> 00:18:21,010
There's nothing to change. Yeah, that's true. So,

281
00:18:21,330 --> 00:18:23,490
so there will always be

282
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:29,260
that vertical thinking.

283
00:18:30,220 --> 00:18:33,860
And I honestly don't give a rat's

284
00:18:33,860 --> 00:18:36,860
ass if anyone or anyone

285
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,740
changes anything. They do. If the

286
00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:45,300
wine industry really wants to

287
00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:47,980
survive and prosper

288
00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:53,210
and thrive and be healthy, the model has to change

289
00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:56,650
and it has to change quickly. And so this.

290
00:18:56,890 --> 00:19:00,690
I'm, I'm. Are you familiar with the

291
00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:04,410
Monell Chemical Census center in Philadelphia? No.

292
00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:06,090
It's the largest

293
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:11,930
and most prestigious organization in the world

294
00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:16,490
focused on the science of chemosensory

295
00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:20,420
perception, which

296
00:19:20,420 --> 00:19:23,340
is validating your mom.

297
00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:27,900
Chemosensory is how molecules

298
00:19:28,620 --> 00:19:32,020
are. Act as

299
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:35,580
stimuli. The, the pathways, the neural

300
00:19:38,940 --> 00:19:41,620
way that they create the

301
00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:44,900
neurotransmitters that go throughout our brain to get

302
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,590
processed, turned into meaning and so on and so

303
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:51,110
forth and then into perception.

304
00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:55,790
I've been working with them for 35 years and the work they

305
00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:59,430
do is just mind blowing. So

306
00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:04,070
that's interesting. Let me ask this. Why now? Why do you think?

307
00:20:05,030 --> 00:20:08,830
Based on what I just said about, you know, the traditionalists not wanting to change

308
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:11,950
because we've been doing this for six. But why not? What's the confluence in the

309
00:20:11,950 --> 00:20:14,530
industry, a confluence in the consumers that has

310
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:18,690
told you it's if we don't change, we're toast.

311
00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:22,770
Well, and thank you. That's actually a perfect,

312
00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:26,370
perfect question. So here's the confluence.

313
00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:31,490
I think it's fair to say that there's

314
00:20:31,890 --> 00:20:35,490
never been a more incredible

315
00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:39,050
diversity of product, of wine, of

316
00:20:39,050 --> 00:20:41,730
styles, of flavors, of price points.

317
00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:47,860
How about that? And, and diversity of where it's

318
00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:49,460
successfully grown

319
00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:55,220
and, you know, from New Jersey to, to

320
00:20:56,820 --> 00:21:00,500
China. To, you know, places no one

321
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,740
ever associated with wine. Right,

322
00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:07,940
Good point. I've been trying to

323
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:13,100
some somehow distill my

324
00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:16,740
crazy thinking into something understandable and

325
00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:20,460
actionable. I've

326
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:24,020
done work in China for almost 35 years

327
00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:29,020
and I watched the explosion of growth. And I

328
00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:31,780
was, I've been to wine regions where

329
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:35,630
I, I've been where

330
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:40,990
ice wine is made and you can look across

331
00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:44,950
the Yalu river to the northern border of

332
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:48,110
North Korea and the value that. That brought

333
00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:51,630
to. In prosperity to an area that was

334
00:21:51,710 --> 00:21:55,350
absolutely devastated by, by change and

335
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:58,750
whatever. All of a sudden it's fire, it's got wine tourism,

336
00:21:58,910 --> 00:22:02,270
it's got a product in pride. And

337
00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:07,150
this is happening all around the world. But

338
00:22:07,790 --> 00:22:11,550
I also know through a lot of

339
00:22:11,550 --> 00:22:15,270
research that I tap into and go

340
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:19,070
into the Chinese population is

341
00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:22,670
not genetically predisposed to drink

342
00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:26,550
red wine. There

343
00:22:26,550 --> 00:22:29,630
are bitter sensitivities and so on and so forth.

344
00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:35,770
So there was before President Xi, the president

345
00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:39,690
declared, we're going to become a nation of red wine

346
00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:43,210
drinkers. Red is heart healthy. Red is metaphorically important.

347
00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:48,170
And due to a number of things that

348
00:22:48,170 --> 00:22:50,090
happened in confluence with this.

349
00:22:52,650 --> 00:22:55,370
And the reason they were doing this was to divert

350
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,840
grain and, and, and, you know,

351
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,360
rice and, and barley and other things back into the food chain from

352
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,040
beer production. Because they were a nation of beer drinkers primarily

353
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,480
and that. And they're, you know, maotai and things like that.

354
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,200
So they, that was the strategy.

355
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,800
Well, sorry. That was the mission in the strategy. Let's become red

356
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,540
wine drinkers. Well, they don't like red wine. It

357
00:23:22,540 --> 00:23:26,380
doesn't matter if it goes with their food or not, because that's stupid.

358
00:23:26,620 --> 00:23:30,420
You get this huge thing with, with so many

359
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:34,180
diverse foods. How do you do wine and food pairing? Which is, by the way,

360
00:23:34,180 --> 00:23:37,740
how French cuisine used to be. But it's another story.

361
00:23:37,979 --> 00:23:40,780
How did they put. I guess that's why they put, you know, there was whole

362
00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:44,220
stories early on. They were putting Coca Cola in there, right? No, they weren't. Where

363
00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:47,740
the Coca Cola's being put in the wine, it saved

364
00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:51,580
the Basque wine industry. It's called Calamocho. They've

365
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:54,960
got a statue to the guy who popularized the most

366
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,600
popular drink, especially with young people in the

367
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,200
Basque regions of France and Spain, is 50 red

368
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,880
wine and 50 Coca Cola. I've never heard that. And I have.

369
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,520
Well, look, yeah, K A L I

370
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,480
M O T X A calumoto.

371
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,720
Oh, the Chinese did not do that because all that was all they

372
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,930
may. Or may not have. They did it with, with, with cognac.

373
00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:25,290
Because you know, cognac had. China saved

374
00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:29,050
the cognac industry and, and they

375
00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:32,850
were willing to spend for it, but it tasted like crap. So they, and

376
00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:36,650
literally you go into a banquet even in the

377
00:24:36,650 --> 00:24:40,370
US to a really, really traditional in LA

378
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:44,370
or, or, or San Francisco and

379
00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:48,220
look how they set up for a true prestigious

380
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:51,660
Chinese banquet. And you will see

381
00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:56,940
usually 2 liter bottles of Sprite

382
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:00,940
7 up in Coca Cola and that's there

383
00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,700
expressly to be blended with cognac. Well,

384
00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:08,780
but here the fresh used to do that. We

385
00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:12,140
don't have any clue what the French used to do. That's true.

386
00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:16,360
This is know we make these faces and whatever in our

387
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:19,720
vertical vacuum and we don't know the history

388
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,800
and we don't know that, that the, the most popular

389
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,840
drink in Spain was sangria.

390
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,800
Yeah. Not freaking Tao. It

391
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,600
wasn't tempranillo, it was sangria. I, I can see this.

392
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,480
Sorry to interrupt you. I can see this in your vertical description

393
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,170
of you know, the industry. And so that, yeah, you

394
00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:45,850
keep banging against the walls of this vertical cylinder.

395
00:25:46,170 --> 00:25:49,810
Oh my God. I can get that. So you were

396
00:25:49,810 --> 00:25:53,450
talking about neurodivergence. Not sure where that plays into

397
00:25:53,690 --> 00:25:57,530
this. Yeah, horizontal part of it.

398
00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:01,690
Somebody sent me a video of

399
00:26:01,690 --> 00:26:04,570
a, of this hysterical

400
00:26:05,370 --> 00:26:08,250
standup routine and,

401
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:12,730
and I'm going to frame this with all of a sudden

402
00:26:13,290 --> 00:26:16,330
it's like there's a coming out party

403
00:26:17,130 --> 00:26:19,290
for neurodivergent people

404
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:25,370
and it's just my, it, it just. I want to be invited to the party.

405
00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:30,250
Well, you're, you'll be seeing more and more of us and hearing more

406
00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:34,010
promos. So somebody sent me a video

407
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,280
and it's an autistic

408
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:40,360
lesbian

409
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,840
stand up comedian. Really.

410
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,800
And she's talking. When I was in Australia,

411
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,680
I think when I was in second grade,

412
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,080
our teacher said, children, we're going to learn about

413
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,760
prepositions. And the

414
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,840
proposition shows a

415
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,480
relationship of two things to each

416
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,880
other. Like Johnny is near the box.

417
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,320
What's the preposition? And she holds up her hand,

418
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,440
she goes, I have questions. Why is Johnny

419
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,200
near the box? And

420
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,120
it keeps going on. I've got questions.

421
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,240
What's in the box? Neurodivergence. I like it. The teacher's trying to explain

422
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,080
it to her and get more frustrated. The kids are laughing their ass off.

423
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,480
And, and then she said, I finally noticed everyone

424
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,200
was laughing. She said, I like that.

425
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,400
I have to, I don't see that because my daughter's a, you know, master's in

426
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:48,720
child

427
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,010
counseling. That would be really for her. So,

428
00:27:55,410 --> 00:27:58,610
so, so here you go. First time on tape.

429
00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:02,290
I am America's first

430
00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:06,290
openly neurodivergent,

431
00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:10,450
ADHD dyslexic, recovering

432
00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:12,450
alcoholic, Master of wine.

433
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:17,730
My brain doesn't work the same way, and that's actually

434
00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:19,890
how I pass a Master of Wine examination.

435
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:25,140
That's because I can look at things from so many different

436
00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:28,900
perspectives. The hard part was getting it all

437
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:32,420
into any kind of cohesive essay,

438
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:36,300
you know, for the examination. So this applies

439
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:39,980
to the wine trade. I mean, I can see how your perspectives,

440
00:28:39,980 --> 00:28:42,260
and that's why I put you back on the show, because I wanted to hear

441
00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:45,780
them. But I can see in this industry an alternative

442
00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:49,900
or neurodivergent viewpoint of what's going

443
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:53,220
on to make the changes you're talking about need to be changed.

444
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:57,820
Yeah. And. And so the research I'm

445
00:28:57,820 --> 00:29:00,420
doing from Perceptual Sciences

446
00:29:01,460 --> 00:29:04,260
is to understand you, your mom,

447
00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:08,300
everybody has created their

448
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,860
perception, literally, of the universe based

449
00:29:11,860 --> 00:29:15,430
on individual genetics,

450
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:20,310
which determine. This is one of the big reasons the

451
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:22,870
sensory scientists have such a hard time.

452
00:29:24,390 --> 00:29:27,110
You may have certain taste buds I don't have.

453
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:32,390
I was just on a BBC BBC World

454
00:29:33,030 --> 00:29:36,710
Global thing with

455
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:39,230
one of the. With the chief scientists from

456
00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:43,990
a Manell Chemical census Center, and. And she was actually

457
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:47,830
doing the. The genetic portion identical

458
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:51,670
to what I do because they'd been my mentors for 35 years. And she

459
00:29:51,670 --> 00:29:55,350
says, you know, somebody, you know, smells a wine and says, oh, I get raspberry

460
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:59,190
this. And she says, and it's a result of this molecule. That's what they

461
00:29:59,190 --> 00:30:02,510
do at motel. And she says, and I don't have that receptor.

462
00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:07,430
You can talk till you're blue in the face about your raspberries,

463
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:11,230
your this or that or. And you can argue about your point systems and

464
00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:14,630
whatever, but genetically, that is our

465
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:18,310
grounding for everything we experience. Light, sound,

466
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:23,030
everything else. That information has to go through neural

467
00:30:23,030 --> 00:30:26,710
pathways that can be conditioned over time.

468
00:30:26,790 --> 00:30:30,350
So neurotransmitters are what make us feel happy or

469
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:33,510
sad or give us energy or

470
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:37,120
depression and pain and

471
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,040
all this kind of stuff. And then the brain has to

472
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,760
process all of that. And the brain

473
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,080
is subject to something called neuroplasticity, which is

474
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,800
learning, and it's repair of the brain from damage and

475
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,440
all this kind of stuff. So literally, when you learn something,

476
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,040
a new language or whatever, you've re. You've physically

477
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,060
rewired your brain, and then there's psychology.

478
00:31:04,660 --> 00:31:07,700
And so your mom said, all right, Paul,

479
00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:12,660
we're going to have spaghetti tonight. But you can't have any

480
00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:15,980
because you did this. And now you associate

481
00:31:15,980 --> 00:31:19,420
spaghetti with being punished with your mom while

482
00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:23,020
somebody else is not doing that. But that's

483
00:31:23,020 --> 00:31:26,860
you. So my new book, the

484
00:31:26,860 --> 00:31:30,350
perception project that we. This is. This is now the whole

485
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,670
formula for how it's being written. And so from a

486
00:31:36,670 --> 00:31:40,190
perceptual standpoint, we're. We're able to look at a person and say,

487
00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:43,070
oh, you know, I. Are you smelling this?

488
00:31:44,670 --> 00:31:48,470
No, it's interesting. You. You know, I don't even get that. And we know

489
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:52,270
this is out there. We science. Every day you have those conversations.

490
00:31:52,830 --> 00:31:56,570
I always wondered if it was because they smelled it

491
00:31:56,570 --> 00:31:59,010
and didn't know how to describe it or they just didn't smell it. And it

492
00:31:59,010 --> 00:32:02,850
sounds. Well, we don't know how to. We. This. Descriptions

493
00:32:02,930 --> 00:32:06,410
are made up. Yeah. Descriptions are a

494
00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:09,730
fantasy and we've just got to get that. And there's. There's an

495
00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:13,130
incredible neurological study done in the University of

496
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:16,730
Bordeaux about languaging. I won't even get into that. But

497
00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:20,290
here's what it looks like. Paul. Now if. If we're open

498
00:32:20,290 --> 00:32:24,020
enough to do that, Here's a glass of wine. Do you like that? No, it's

499
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:27,780
too sweet. Okay, great. Let me. Let's try. Try

500
00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:31,620
this. Not. Well, not. Not.

501
00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:37,020
Let me. Let me finish. Sort of. And. And. Well. Oh,

502
00:32:37,020 --> 00:32:40,340
I. I smell this in the raspberries. Oh, great.

503
00:32:40,740 --> 00:32:44,460
I don't. But like. Or minerality. I. I

504
00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:47,860
don't care what. What. I want to find you the wine you're going to love.

505
00:32:49,270 --> 00:32:52,630
Well, what food should I have? What food do you love?

506
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:56,390
Well, aren't I supposed to prepare wine and food? I said,

507
00:32:57,190 --> 00:33:00,870
you know, that's all made up. If, if you'd like, I can give you.

508
00:33:01,190 --> 00:33:05,030
Oh, I could give you classical pairings that aren't really. Or I can give you

509
00:33:05,030 --> 00:33:08,750
the. Goes together, grows together. Or I can introduce

510
00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:11,910
you to flavor modulation. And that is

511
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:15,620
that. This goes back to your mom. The chemistry that

512
00:33:15,780 --> 00:33:19,460
certain things in combination, depending on

513
00:33:19,460 --> 00:33:22,900
your genetics and your. In your

514
00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:25,700
brain plasticity will modulate,

515
00:33:27,460 --> 00:33:30,820
meaning go either go up or go down. The easiest

516
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:35,500
example of this. Brush teeth drink orange juice. Yeah, that's

517
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:38,340
one of the old school ones. So that's. And that's actually

518
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:42,350
defined by a perceptual

519
00:33:43,390 --> 00:33:47,190
phenomenon called flavor modulation. And it's easy

520
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:50,950
to explain. Oh, is. Is this state going to be

521
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:54,790
good with my red wine? Well, how much. What do

522
00:33:54,790 --> 00:33:58,550
you like the balance of the wine? It's. It's a little strong

523
00:33:58,550 --> 00:34:02,390
for me, a little bitter. Oh, so don't have this steak because it's got a

524
00:34:02,390 --> 00:34:06,030
sweet teriyaki glaze or some

525
00:34:06,030 --> 00:34:09,870
cockamamie shit. And that's going to be like, brush your teeth, drink orange juice.

526
00:34:10,289 --> 00:34:14,009
This steak has a maitre d' hotel

527
00:34:14,009 --> 00:34:17,809
butter, which has lemon juice in it. And by the way, in

528
00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:21,049
Tuscany, they'd always serve lemons with their bisteca all

529
00:34:21,049 --> 00:34:24,809
Fiorentina. It's not the steak. The steak actually is

530
00:34:24,809 --> 00:34:28,369
opposite of what the experts tell you it really is.

531
00:34:28,529 --> 00:34:32,089
It's the salt you put on it and a little squeeze of lemon, and

532
00:34:32,089 --> 00:34:35,729
that'll have a modulation. It'll make the wine smoother.

533
00:34:37,110 --> 00:34:40,390
You know, I don't like red wine. You love Moscato. I love

534
00:34:40,390 --> 00:34:44,110
Moscato. Historically, if you

535
00:34:44,110 --> 00:34:47,790
had steak in Italy and somebody wanted Moscato, nobody would bat an eye.

536
00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:51,550
It's delicious. You know, you had

537
00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:54,430
two things in there that I'm going to dumb down a little bit just for

538
00:34:54,430 --> 00:34:57,910
the listeners to the scent of. You know how it applies, like, Daily

539
00:34:58,950 --> 00:35:02,760
One is, you know, my wife, you know, she's come a long

540
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,280
way in the wine consumption since we got married. She used to drink Gallo

541
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,040
Chablis, but. But I know what she drinks, and I don't

542
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,440
bother trying to get her to drink anything else. So she won't drink Syrah. She's

543
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,680
able to. She's able to grab Syrah out of the. Out of the air. She

544
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,080
knows when she puts her nose to the glass, she's not going to like it.

545
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,840
It's always Sarah. I can never stump her. I don't care if I give her

546
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,400
a roan or Central Valley, it doesn't matter. She catches

547
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,840
me. And so I got tired of trying. It's. I know what she likes to

548
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,180
drink, and I stay in that range. The other thing that you said that I

549
00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:35,980
think is really important for people to hear because you hear this all

550
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:38,660
the time. And I've had many people say on the show, we need to change

551
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:42,020
the language of wine. What do you mean, change the language of wine? If you

552
00:35:42,020 --> 00:35:45,540
tell me today that as you were saying, and your. Your

553
00:35:45,860 --> 00:35:49,580
philosophy is right on your theory in that if I

554
00:35:49,580 --> 00:35:52,940
don't smell those raspberries, there's a couple reasons why. One is I don't have the

555
00:35:52,940 --> 00:35:56,380
ability to smell them because my receptors don't do it, or I just don't understand

556
00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:59,170
what you're telling me to try and smell. So

557
00:36:00,130 --> 00:36:03,890
if you change that to Captain Crunch or Fruit Loops,

558
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:07,690
which is what some of these gen zers and millennials want to do, like you

559
00:36:07,690 --> 00:36:10,370
need to change, we make it more, more accessible. Well, I don't know what you

560
00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:14,209
mean if you tell me it smells like. Fruit Loops, Let me jump in because

561
00:36:14,209 --> 00:36:17,730
I think we're probably going to run out of time before this. Yes.

562
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:20,770
We don't need to change the language of wine

563
00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:25,020
because there is no

564
00:36:25,420 --> 00:36:28,780
standardized language of wine Again.

565
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,100
So trying to think there's a standardized language

566
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:36,380
is going right back into that vertical vacuum.

567
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:40,460
You're right. You're. We're right back in it. And to say,

568
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:45,100
you know, my wife's come a long way because she used to drink

569
00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:48,700
that, that's actually a

570
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:52,790
pretty unfortunate judgment of the people who still drink it.

571
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:57,910
Seriously. Good point. I suppose we don't.

572
00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:02,070
The long and short of it, we don't even think before we

573
00:37:02,070 --> 00:37:05,750
speak. Or, or, or look, and that's

574
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:08,310
interesting point. The neurodivergent mind

575
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:12,230
is not focus. The reason I

576
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:16,360
ADHD happens my. In neuroscience

577
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,800
can show my brain's firing off all over the place.

578
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,920
And so I look at things

579
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,960
that, that, that, that

580
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,120
other people don't look at going together. And this is not

581
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,920
necessarily a benefit. This has been a curse for my entire

582
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,000
life. And for the first time, I'm

583
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,880
beginning to understand why. In grade school,

584
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,120
I was in the corner. I was the class clown,

585
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,120
and I was a. My report cards went

586
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,920
to. Went from little Timmy needs to settle down a little

587
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,200
bit to this son of a bitch is going to be incarcerated if you don't

588
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,400
figure out what the hell to do with them. Seriously.

589
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,680
And there's millions like me. And so when

590
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,480
this comedienne starts, starts

591
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,200
going and she discovered she. These are legitimate

592
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,840
questions she had. And it ended up with

593
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,600
this whole different. Trying to explain prepositions

594
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,200
a different way. And everybody's laughing.

595
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,360
She's enjoying the laughter. And

596
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,680
she goes. And I found everybody laughing. And I like

597
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,350
that. Oh, no, let's,

598
00:38:36,350 --> 00:38:39,870
let's spend the last few minutes on this, this, this coming out of the

599
00:38:39,870 --> 00:38:43,630
neurodivergence thing. Like when you say that there's a. I don't

600
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:47,110
say renaissance of it, but an understanding of it. Is that what you mean? Well,

601
00:38:47,110 --> 00:38:50,950
there's an understanding and that's been growing for, for decades.

602
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:56,310
My son, who's an electrical engineer, you know, at a major,

603
00:38:56,310 --> 00:39:00,040
major company, his, his

604
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,760
first year of school was absolute hell. He didn't want to go to school.

605
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,560
You couldn't make him. He's absolutely brilliant.

606
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,120
And we, we were very, very,

607
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,280
very diligent about his ADHD

608
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,160
diagnosis, what kind of ADHD and medication.

609
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,200
And that wasn't available to me ever. All

610
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,800
right, so even more

611
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,640
so, the, the coming out of Neurodivergence is just the ability to say, hey,

612
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,360
I'm a dyslexic ADHD nut case

613
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,400
and I'm of, of a lot of value in some cases.

614
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,240
Well, that's, that's interesting to be discovering wine.

615
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,640
And here's the craziest of it all, Paul. I'm writing my

616
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,170
book in this fashion of 35 years

617
00:39:54,050 --> 00:39:57,890
of 65 years, 60 years of

618
00:39:58,770 --> 00:40:02,570
passion and understanding of gastronomy and wine and

619
00:40:02,570 --> 00:40:06,290
wine culture, becoming a master of wine and so on and so forth.

620
00:40:07,490 --> 00:40:11,210
I have discovered. And my new book is being written to take

621
00:40:11,210 --> 00:40:14,290
all my concepts and really

622
00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:18,220
carefully use AI because

623
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:21,940
AI, if artificial intelligence with the right

624
00:40:21,940 --> 00:40:25,700
inputs is, is just amazing. Everything has

625
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:29,420
to be fact checked. And then I post it on Facebook

626
00:40:30,140 --> 00:40:33,260
to see if I've actually gotten it in a way

627
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:38,020
that people go, oh, I get that like you just did. That is a

628
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:41,700
result of me taking these random thoughts, putting them

629
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:44,610
into AI, putting, then carefully

630
00:40:45,090 --> 00:40:48,890
editing that to, to make sure it's what I want, putting

631
00:40:48,890 --> 00:40:52,610
it AI. Oh, I've got to change this because people are getting stuck

632
00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:55,650
there or they don't understand this. And

633
00:40:56,450 --> 00:41:00,130
that was. Right. That was never available to anyone before. And

634
00:41:00,130 --> 00:41:03,610
it's a new phenomenon. So when do you expect the

635
00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:07,370
releases book. By the

636
00:41:07,370 --> 00:41:10,770
end of the year. And things are, things are just going

637
00:41:11,250 --> 00:41:14,960
quickly because what I'm doing now is I'm writing, I do.

638
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,600
I just rewrote the introduction. It's the introduction of the books

639
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,760
available on LinkedIn and. Oh, cool.

640
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,400
And I've got it edited and I've got feedback, I've clarified it

641
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,120
because people say well. And then all of a sudden

642
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,880
somebody mentioned Howard Moskowitz

643
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,640
again. I went oh geez, I forgot about Howard. And then

644
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,360
I reframed the whole goddamn thing and it's now in my manuscript.

645
00:41:42,420 --> 00:41:45,820
We're going to leave it at that today we're going to do this again. I'm

646
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:48,700
in big trouble if I don't get back to my 7 year old, my 5

647
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,420
year old granddaughter's birthday party. Please do. Yeah. Yes,

648
00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:55,460
my back was against the wall. But I do want to have you send me

649
00:41:55,460 --> 00:41:58,740
the link to that comedian if you can find it. I will. You know what?

650
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:06,340
Yeah, let me do. I'm doing that for actually because

651
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:10,020
I just met a neurodivergent chief

652
00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:13,580
marketing officer and head of product development

653
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:18,060
for what's the Japanese

654
00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:21,740
scotch company? What's that?

655
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:25,580
Suntory. And she just did a whole post about her

656
00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:29,300
neurodivergence. And so I contacted

657
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:32,460
her, I said, but I said I had

658
00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:33,580
AI

659
00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:38,940
post this about why we should meet.

660
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:46,420
And it's a tim hat. I does this, this and this. And you

661
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:50,140
guys should get together because of this. And I said that you got

662
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:53,940
back to me in an hour. We're speaking next week. That's so fun. They

663
00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:57,780
own Chateau La Gaffier, I think, also. Oh, you know, I think they're out

664
00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:01,480
of the wine business now. Oh, they sell it, maybe. Yeah. Them

665
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,160
and how in the. And that's what's happening around the world. People are

666
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,640
bailing online. It's just. Yeah. So, anyways, well, thank

667
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,440
Thanksgiving. Really great. Great talking with you. Thanks for putting up

668
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,920
with my insanity. No, we're going to do it again. We have to stay in

669
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,120
touch because I just, it's, it's a fascinating part of the

670
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,280
perception of the trade and I think we need to, we need to discuss it,

671
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,720
continue it. Oh, it's. I, I, I'll tell. I, I

672
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,390
honestly think in my waning years of life, my life

673
00:43:29,390 --> 00:43:32,910
work. In my wife's life. Yeah. Again.

674
00:43:33,550 --> 00:43:35,870
Yeah. I think, I think I might have it.

675
00:43:37,230 --> 00:43:39,630
Cheers. Thank you. All the best, buddy.