Phil Long Learned It The Hard Way. Without The Headwinds Of Racism.

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Once you start really diving into the process of making wine, it's

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not a difficult process to make. You can

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make wine in about three steps. It's crap, but you can make it in

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about three steps. You learn the next hundred steps

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and it's a drinkable wine, but it's the thousand steps you

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learn. They really define you as a winemaker. Sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul King. Hey, welcome to Wine

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Talks with Paul Key. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California. Actually

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a little blustery here in Monroe. About to have a conversation with Phil Long

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of Longevity Wines way out in Maryland today. Hey,

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have a listen to a show that I just came out with a guy named

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Zach Armand, young man who's decided he's going to take on wholesale

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wine from an area of the world that nobody knows about called Armenia

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and grapes that no one knows about, called Areni. It's a fascinating story about

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here, how he got involved with this crazy industry. And

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give us a review and subscribe. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't

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do it. There's something good to say, go ahead and do it. That's how we

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keep our egos in check here in the podcasting world, but not why we're here.

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Here to have a conversation with Mr. Phil Long of Longevity Wines.

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Welcome to the show, Phil. Thank you, Paul. Great, great being here.

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I appreciate you having me. Well, fascinating story. And we

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met up in the aaav, the association of African

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American Ve association tasting and had a

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fabulous time there. But. But we stumbled across

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the only time in my life in career where I ran into somebody who

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grew up in Inglewood near me

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as I stayed there till I was about 7 and we were

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neighbors there at 80, I was at 84th street and you were

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at 82nd, and you went to

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Daniel Freeman Elementary. And until. Until

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I didn't. Right. Kindergarten

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through fifth grade. And they decided that's when segregation

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and busing was going to happen. So I was bused for the sixth

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grade to Lati Hera. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. We

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didn't talk about that. So my father had a

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pharmacy on Van Ness, right near

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Manchester. And then he would take me to school. I mean, take me

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to work. I'd stamp brochures or something. And then the driver would

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drive me to Daniel Freeman, which I don't remember being that far from

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there. No, Daniel Freeman was probably

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three blocks from. So it's really close. So

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it's really close. In fact, when I was old enough to Start walking

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to school. I remember my mom standing out on the

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sidewalk watching me until I got to the school block. Oh, wow.

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So that was that close? Yes, it was that close

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because my parents house was right across the street from the

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pharmacy with a little Spanish style

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home. My mom raised us

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there. And then we moved to 84th Street, I think when

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I was probably three or something. And in my first

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lemonade stand was right there on Manchester, near Prairie, you know, before the

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Forum. Before the Forum, right. Yeah. I

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watched. There were occasions when I got to high school.

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I remember walking. I don't remember why, but I remember walking

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and watching the form being built. Yeah, Isn't that crazy? Yeah,

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it is crazy. I learned how to ride a bike at Hollywood park parking

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lot and you know, we went to Huck Finn Day and fish in the.

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The lake in there, whatever. I don't know. Darby

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Park. Darby Park. You know, I ended up.

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We end up at the beach Cities and I ran cross country in high school

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and I won one race during that, my freshman year

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anyway, and it was at Darby park when we raced against Inglewood High.

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Really? Yeah. And I. Maybe it was this nostalgic thing for

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me, but, you know, it was like we used to have Cub Scouts there and

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my brother was. My dad was Scout master of the Englewood Cub

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Scouts. And they had their Pinewood Derby at Darby park and.

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Wow. Yeah. You know, I haven't spent a lot of time in

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Inglewood lately, but I. I hear has

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changed enormously. Oh, man, you can imagine with Sofi

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Stadium and. Right. All that. My grandparents are

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there at the cemetery at the Corner Prairie in Manchester as well. Oh, really?

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Yeah. And my dad was chief of staff at Daniel Freeman

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Hospital. Oh, wow. Really?

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Yes, I believe that's where I was born. Oh,

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really? Really? Wow.

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Actually, I was born. I was born here in dc, Believe it or not.

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Oh, wow. Yeah. And then you moved from D.C. to

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Englewood. Born here. Went

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to nursery school in Oakland,

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California and went from

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kindergarten all the way through, you

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know, until I tell. Until we moved up to northern California in

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2002. So I pretty much spent my entire life in. In Southern

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California. Wow. How is it then that two guys

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living two blocks apart of the same generation

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both got into the wine trade? Yeah, I've. This was

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not my journey. I. I didn't actually know

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wine was made in this country when I was in college. Wow.

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Wow. Yeah. That was a late bloomer

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there. Pretty much. Yeah. I thought it was France or somewhere

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in Europe. Wine just wasn't really a part of My upbringing, so I

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didn't have much, much exposure to it. Well, what's

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interesting for me, my dad was standing at the counter at the

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pharmacy on Van Ness and Queen Elizabeth was coming

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to town to meet President Eisenhower. And he. And he

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poured. He was the first president to pour an American wine at the White House.

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Wasn't for a state dinner, it was for a lunch. And he poured him. Poured

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her Charles Krug special select Cabernet. And my

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dad reading the news LA Times sitting at the counter

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on Van Ness thought this was pretty interesting. And I guess one of his Lions

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Club buddies had a liquor store down the road and ordered

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a case and that started this journey. But you, you

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didn't, like you said you didn't know wine in college, but. And

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you studied architecture

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when. What was that plan? What was the plan for the architecture?

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You know, it really wasn't a plan. It was a default actually.

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Ever since the seventh grade at, at Crozier Junior

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High. I took one of the

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courses was drafting, right. And I don't know, for

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some reason it. It just clicked. I ended up doing everybody

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else's homework because nobody else could get it. Like this whole isometric

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perspective. What does this mean? What. It just clicked. So from that point

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on, drafting and being a creative

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has been my life. When I got to Englewood High, I

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immediately signed up for architectural drafting.

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Turns out I knew more than the teacher did,

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so he would all the students to come to me.

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So when it was time to go to college, it was really boiled down to

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what two Cal State schools offered architecture as a major,

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and it was Pomona and San Luis Obispo. San Luis

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Obispo is more of a engineering oriented school

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and Pomona is more of a design oriented school. So that's where I went.

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And so while you're there, you continue this love

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of, of the idea because it's really engineering at this point, right? It's

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not really. No, it's really design. It's. It's really

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designing buildings, homes, you know,

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styles going back through all of the different

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ages of architecture and

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design. And it was really fascinating. I mean, I still carry that

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with me today. It's kind of cool. Well, you would think too, in the

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wine trade that is a really interesting part of the business, which is

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design of wineries, not only for

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architectural history, but the functionality of

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that is very important as well. In fact, your design of your winery is really

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fun. Having seen it online, had not a chance to go there,

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but I'm sure that you had a lot to do with how that was going

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to function. You know, I, I, I give, I give Deborah the

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credit, but it was, you know, it was a collaborative thing. I think our goal

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was with the winery, not to, we just wanted to create an

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environment that we weren't pretending to be something we're not.

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We just, we just wanted to do us right.

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So a lot of the furnishings in the winery, a lot of the

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things are there. I actually built. There are things in

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there from my family, actually. In the main

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barrel room, underneath the main long table,

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there's a huge Karestan carpet that was in my

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house. Wow. On 82nd place. Really? Wow.

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Cool. Very cool. So we just use things that really

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said who we were and, and it just seems to work. It's just like

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home. And that's what we wanted. Probably got a lot of. You probably got a

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lot of comments on that. Just the wine world

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in Livermore Valley. But here's this giant carousel.

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Carbon. Yeah. People look at it and they can't believe how

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old. I can't believe how old it is, how much it's held up. But

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yes, there's a symbol. I mean, there's, there's a, there's a couple paintings from

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my grandparents when I, when I was in Oakland going to nursery

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school. So there's just a lot of history

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and again, just who we were. We weren't, we weren't trying to be

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a Tuscan villa wannabe. We just want to do us.

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And it seemed to work. Let's talk, we're going to talk about that a

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little bit about this lifestyle of wine and, you know, how people try to

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get into it. And they, they do exactly what you're saying. They build these

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elaborate, sometimes gaudy places to represent

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who they are, but that's not really who they are. They're just trying to flaunt

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something. But so, so how did you migrate from architecture

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to, to wine? And your career is amazing. We're going to talk a lot

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about those things. But was it because we're in college now? When

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I was at college, you know, we were drinking the cheap bourbon. We

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didn't, you know, we didn't. My dad had a liquor store, so, you know, that

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was easily accessible. But when was it

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that you had. You got this bug? Because this is tall

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order. Well, it certainly wasn't during college. College.

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I remember my first ever taste of wine

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was at a, a high school

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camping trip. I'm like, what?

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And the actual teacher. No names. The actual

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teacher brought a bottle of Boone's Farm

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apple something. And we were all

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able to partake in this little. This bottle of Boone's Farm.

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That was my very, very first taste of wine. But college was

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more. It was Schlitz malt liquor and tanker and

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tonic. It. It just wasn't a wine time. No. I mean,

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yes. Well, when you get out of, you know, you get out of college and

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you start, you know, getting into the world, if you're going to

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date and you're going to go have dinner, you. You better know a little

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something. So I kind of developed some favorites. I, I

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remember Concrete Cab from Napa was a

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favorite at one point. And then I had a

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friend who, who collected wine, and

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he brought us over one

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night and he introduced

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us to silver oak by serving a flight of

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multiple vintages of silver oak. Wow. Vertical.

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I'm like, wow, this is good. How much does it cost? Oh, no

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wonder. Yeah. When was, how long ago was that? That

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was probably in the

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mid-90s. Mid to late 90s.

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Yeah. Back when Silver oak was Silver oak.

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Yeah. No offense to silver. No. They're

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still selling thousands of cases. Yeah. Oh, sure.

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But. So we started getting out, exploring and

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understanding why. But then we migrated to Northern

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California for actually a corporate job. I was

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creative director for a large design firm here in.

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Or not here, but in Northern California. And when we got

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to Northern California, it's such a difference than

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Southern California. It's. You're in the middle of wine country,

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usa, period. You know, if California were a

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country, we'd be like the fourth or fifth largest wine producing country

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in the world. And most of it's in Northern California. So you can't

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drive in any direction without ending up in one country. So every

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weekend we tried to get out and explore because I never lived anywhere else but

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Southern California, inevitably we'd end up at a winery

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because you can't go in any direction. You can't really do it. Yeah,

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no. So the, the process to

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me sort of grew on me. It was fascinating. So

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Deborah and I just decided, let's, let's try to make a little wine in the

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garage. You know, that's that. But that's not, you know, that

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curiosity is, I think, you know, it's not, it's

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not popular, necessary, but

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it does require that curiosity to peel this

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industry back. And I was reflecting on something you said. There was

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this. It's a very cerebral subject, if you want it to be.

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And you, you pursued it that way. There was a TV show, there was

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a French movie that I was watching on the plane not too long ago. And

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it was, you know, the, the gentleman said, wine is the

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intellectual part of a meal. And that stuck with

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me because it is part. It is that part of the meal where you think

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and you wonder and you, you. This is what you're doing when you're tasting silver

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oak. And you. We're. We're fortunate enough to have a flight of, you

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know, a vertical flight of silver oak to, to stimulate your

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curiosity. Right. But then today, I.

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Mike, my saying is that wine's not a beverage, it's an experience.

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Yes, and that's. Right. That's a really good point.

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We'll talk about that, too. But that's. There's a big

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chasm and leap between. This is an interesting subject, and

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I can't tell you how many meals I've had with people that just, you know,

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the, the wine geek who goes on and on and on and on about it,

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but, you know, would never step into trying to make

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it. I, you know, I've been around all my life. I would. I

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deliberately stayed away from trying to make it. What. Why was that so

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interesting for your wife, too? You know,

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once you start really diving into the process of making

245
00:14:49,688 --> 00:14:53,248
wine, it's. It's not a difficult

246
00:14:53,344 --> 00:14:57,168
process to make one. You can make wine in about three steps.

247
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It's crap, but you can make it about three steps. You,

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you learn the next hundred steps, and it's a

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drinkable wine. But it's the thousand steps you learn, they really

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define you as a winemaker. So it's the

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complication of it and the under. Well, what does that step? What. What do those

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steps mean? Is that experience, study,

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academic reading because, you know, you taught.

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You think about it. There's. That, there's one process where you go to

255
00:15:26,838 --> 00:15:29,582
enology school, you go to UC Davis, you go to Cornell, you go to Ever,

256
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you learn enology and you learn the bacteria. And then the other ones you're a

257
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seller at. And you, You're. You work your way up in the cellar.

258
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Both of those end up with, you know, rather dramatic

259
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,900
experience to get to a product you can drink and sell.

260
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You just decided to do it by the seat of your pants. Is that what

261
00:15:48,352 --> 00:15:51,704
you did? Well, my seller was, you know, my seller experience was the

262
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garage. Yes. You know, we made in the G White, made wine in

263
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the garage from 2003 to 2008 and

264
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decided to. To jump in and see if we could.

265
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See if we could sell what we make. So. So you

266
00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:10,772
had enough. You felt like you could go. Like so

267
00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:14,068
many of the stories, particularly the early nap eventers, you know, I put the stuff

268
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in the back of this car and I drove to LA and I, you know,

269
00:16:17,548 --> 00:16:21,044
I hope the car was empty when I got back home. Is that

270
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the kind of thing you did? Something like that.

271
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You know, we really wanted to be able to produce wine commercially and to do

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that you have to have a bonded facility, which I mean a little

273
00:16:32,304 --> 00:16:35,608
side step to the story. We got our wholesale distributor's

274
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license back in 2000, I don't know,

275
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,528
four or something, which allowed us to. So we started

276
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an online based wine club. It's kind of like

277
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California Wine Club. We visit a different Appalachian each month

278
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and feature wines. But that also gave us the ability to start

279
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producing wine under our label in other

280
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bonded facilities. So we started integrating

281
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longevity into the monthly wine

282
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pack. So it really gave us a little bit of a kickstart.

283
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So when we opened and we started what is still

284
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today, you know, longevity Wine Club, I think we lost one

285
00:17:15,944 --> 00:17:19,712
customer because he really just enjoyed the variety. And now

286
00:17:19,736 --> 00:17:22,576
that he was going to be eating all longevity, he thought yeah, I want, I'd

287
00:17:22,608 --> 00:17:25,828
really like the variety. But only one customer left us and that was a great,

288
00:17:25,884 --> 00:17:29,652
great kickstart. Man, I wish I had a success when, you know,

289
00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:32,900
well, one of the month club was, you know, like it was the first club

290
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:36,036
in America that was successful. We, but we peaked around

291
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2000. I don't know, I guess it was around

292
00:17:39,804 --> 00:17:43,540
2013, maybe 12 or something. The long

293
00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:47,332
career of this 35 year club that we had. But man, it changed a

294
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lot in the last couple of years to the point where we sold

295
00:17:51,028 --> 00:17:53,070
it. But you mentioned California Wine Club,

296
00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:58,834
Bruce Boring or Jerry Becker and. Nope, just I admired

297
00:17:58,882 --> 00:18:02,402
them from afar. Yeah, they're great. I got

298
00:18:02,506 --> 00:18:04,630
off camera, I'll tell you some great stories

299
00:18:06,570 --> 00:18:09,954
but, but then again, okay, so now you've, you've made this leap, which is a

300
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huge leap and you obviously have the bug now and you want to do this

301
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and then you. One of the issues today, right now with

302
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the whole wine trade is the consolidation of, of

303
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wholesalers. A lot of small brands are getting lost in the big

304
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:28,244
books. You know, if you go with Southern or R D C or something, you're

305
00:18:28,292 --> 00:18:32,116
just going to get, you know, squished and you, you landed

306
00:18:32,148 --> 00:18:35,892
with a really large distributor and a family run organization called

307
00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:39,188
the Franzio Frangio Group, Bronco being their

308
00:18:39,324 --> 00:18:42,884
distribution arm. That's a, that's an accolade in

309
00:18:42,892 --> 00:18:46,558
itself to be able to, to land in that book.

310
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You know, you start a business hoping at Someday in

311
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whatever medium that is going to pay off for you. Right? That's, that's

312
00:18:53,854 --> 00:18:57,390
what you're, you're hoping for, but you never know what that

313
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is. And the, the story is back in

314
00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:04,430
2017, a friend of mine came over to the, to the winery

315
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and he said, we're just sitting around just having a glass of wine. And he

316
00:19:08,246 --> 00:19:11,640
looked at the label. He says, I don't know why I didn't think of this

317
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,448
before. I think, I think Fred would really be interested in partnering

318
00:19:15,464 --> 00:19:19,032
with you and helping you expand. And I honestly, my, and I

319
00:19:19,056 --> 00:19:22,872
quote, I said, fred who? And

320
00:19:22,896 --> 00:19:26,744
he said, he said, fred Franzia. And I said, I just laughed.

321
00:19:26,792 --> 00:19:30,312
I said, yeah, sure. Right, dude? Yeah. He said, can I take some bottles to

322
00:19:30,336 --> 00:19:33,940
him? I said, you take him anything you want. So he was

323
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,624
my friend. Steve was the cork salesman for

324
00:19:37,792 --> 00:19:41,448
Bronco or one of the cork vendors for Bronco. And I also bought my course,

325
00:19:41,504 --> 00:19:45,096
but we had been friends for years. So he took Fred some bottles

326
00:19:45,208 --> 00:19:48,936
and I'm not kidding, two weeks later, I'm sitting

327
00:19:48,968 --> 00:19:52,776
across the table from Fred. That's phenomenal. Yeah,

328
00:19:52,808 --> 00:19:56,504
that, that's scary. Well, he's like, he was, he was the king,

329
00:19:56,552 --> 00:20:00,312
you know, at that point. Right. I mean, I think what the, the

330
00:20:00,416 --> 00:20:03,620
cool little story, the indication of where I was.

331
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:08,062
I'm sitting in the lobby of Fred's trailer. Believe it or

332
00:20:08,086 --> 00:20:11,278
not. I'm sitting in the lobby and there's this

333
00:20:11,334 --> 00:20:15,134
framed picture on the wall. Kind of faded

334
00:20:15,182 --> 00:20:18,974
color, you know, 60sish, kind of, you can tell. But there

335
00:20:18,982 --> 00:20:22,382
was a plaque with all the names of the people. And there are probably

336
00:20:22,526 --> 00:20:26,190
50, 60 people in this, in this plaque. And you read the

337
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:29,230
names. Every single

338
00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:32,910
Italian family name in the wine business you can think

339
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:36,554
of is in this one picture. Wow. The Martinis,

340
00:20:36,602 --> 00:20:40,346
the Rossis, the Gallows, the Mandavis, the Sagacios,

341
00:20:40,378 --> 00:20:44,170
the Fran. Everyone you can name is in this one picture. And I just

342
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:47,562
thought, I, I, I, I, I, I shouldn't be

343
00:20:47,586 --> 00:20:48,150
here.

344
00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:54,938
Can I sneak out at this point? That's

345
00:20:54,954 --> 00:20:58,730
amazing. There's just an indication of where I

346
00:20:58,770 --> 00:21:02,340
was in that moment. That's a

347
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,632
crazy good story. He's such a, he was such a powerful man

348
00:21:06,736 --> 00:21:10,312
and, but a fair guy for the

349
00:21:10,336 --> 00:21:14,168
listeners. You know, the Franzia family is hugely responsible for the wine industry

350
00:21:14,224 --> 00:21:17,720
in California and, but also responsible for some

351
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,320
pretty shady stuff. And I, I had to remind, you know,

352
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,192
Classic Wines is their other distribution arm. And I did a lot of

353
00:21:25,216 --> 00:21:28,750
business with, with them and spoke with Fred many times

354
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:32,722
on deals. They, they were one of the great things about Fred was he was

355
00:21:32,746 --> 00:21:36,386
willing to make a deal. Right. And, you know, and he was a shrewd negotiator.

356
00:21:36,418 --> 00:21:39,746
But, you know, we. We did. I had a lot of wine with them, and.

357
00:21:39,818 --> 00:21:43,266
And he just wanted to make deals. He wanted to make it work, you know.

358
00:21:43,338 --> 00:21:46,578
Right. It may cost a little money on the back end, but he knew I'd

359
00:21:46,594 --> 00:21:50,114
come back for more in the future, so it was great. But, you know, responsible

360
00:21:50,162 --> 00:21:53,500
also for trying to fool the

361
00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:57,280
feds into thinking he was making white zinfandel out of Grenache.

362
00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:03,308
Well, I. I didn't have any personal association with those

363
00:22:03,364 --> 00:22:06,940
experiences. You know, Fred was a.

364
00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:10,732
Definitely an interesting human being. He didn't have much of a filter, and

365
00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:14,120
he definitely told you what he thought, when he thought it.

366
00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:17,820
But I. I love the guy. You know, he. He saw something in me,

367
00:22:17,860 --> 00:22:21,384
and I met him in 17, and we formed a

368
00:22:21,392 --> 00:22:25,144
partnership in 2019. Oh, it was rather. It's rather

369
00:22:25,192 --> 00:22:28,920
young, really, when it comes to the world of wine. But. But you said something

370
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,536
really interesting, and I want to peel it back a little bit. There's. The wine

371
00:22:32,568 --> 00:22:36,232
industry is being. Not gonna say bashed, but

372
00:22:36,256 --> 00:22:38,900
it's. It's. There's this

373
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,496
issue with racism, there's an issue with women

374
00:22:43,568 --> 00:22:47,032
in wine, and that there's only, you know, 25% of the winemakers are women, and

375
00:22:47,056 --> 00:22:50,670
there's only 5% are executives. And. And you think about

376
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:54,542
these immigration families, all these Italians. Now, maybe there was a. There

377
00:22:54,566 --> 00:22:58,222
was a. Maybe there was a propensity for Italians to

378
00:22:58,326 --> 00:23:01,918
stay together. But, you know, the industry really was founded by immigration,

379
00:23:02,014 --> 00:23:05,290
immigrants, and it was coming to this country.

380
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:08,958
Yeah. We all need to remember, you know, during those

381
00:23:09,014 --> 00:23:12,462
times when the Italians were migrating to

382
00:23:12,486 --> 00:23:16,216
California, they came with grapevines in their pocket. That's what their families did.

383
00:23:16,318 --> 00:23:20,132
That's what they're, you know, ones before them. And for them, they. They

384
00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:24,004
just all had their own wine in their own house. Every. Every household

385
00:23:24,052 --> 00:23:27,700
would produce their own, however small a batch. That was the

386
00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:31,380
house's wine. House wine. It was that house's wine. So when they

387
00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:35,268
migrated, they came here with grapevines in their pocket.

388
00:23:35,444 --> 00:23:38,820
When you look at African Americans in the wine industry, you got to think

389
00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:42,308
back. That's not how we got here. So we

390
00:23:42,364 --> 00:23:45,840
started way, way, way, way, way back

391
00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:49,732
behind them. And, you know, you mentioned

392
00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,964
5% or executive, 25% are women,

393
00:23:53,052 --> 00:23:56,660
1% or African American. And you. Because

394
00:23:56,700 --> 00:24:00,452
that's what it sound like. You're saying that's. Because that wasn't part

395
00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,412
of the culture when you came here. There's, of course, a lot of reasons why

396
00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:06,868
you came here, and one of a bad mark on the history of the country.

397
00:24:06,924 --> 00:24:10,760
But. But generally it wasn't part of the lifestyle,

398
00:24:11,310 --> 00:24:14,630
because I checked in with the. I checked in for the listeners, the

399
00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:18,198
AAAV, which is the association of African American Vendors

400
00:24:18,294 --> 00:24:22,086
in 2004 or so. And I can't remember what the

401
00:24:22,238 --> 00:24:25,798
social issues were at the time, but I wanted to feature

402
00:24:25,974 --> 00:24:29,798
a wine from your group in the club. And

403
00:24:29,854 --> 00:24:33,606
so at that time, we were probably buying a thousand

404
00:24:33,678 --> 00:24:37,302
cases of red a month and 8, 900 cases of white, something like

405
00:24:37,326 --> 00:24:40,754
that. And if I remember, there were like

406
00:24:40,842 --> 00:24:44,546
five members of the association at that point. Now, had you founded

407
00:24:44,578 --> 00:24:48,290
it at that point or how. So the association

408
00:24:48,370 --> 00:24:50,630
was founded by Mac McDonald.

409
00:24:51,850 --> 00:24:55,410
Mac McDonald was recognized as this

410
00:24:55,450 --> 00:24:59,026
phenomenal black winemaker, not because he was a black wine

411
00:24:59,058 --> 00:25:02,626
maker, he was making 90 point pinos from Sonoma.

412
00:25:02,738 --> 00:25:05,830
And it's like he was just making gray wine.

413
00:25:06,890 --> 00:25:10,450
But as he says, I used to go to events and people didn't look like

414
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:13,858
me. So when he did find someone that looked like

415
00:25:13,914 --> 00:25:17,186
him, they started to band together and share

416
00:25:17,258 --> 00:25:20,962
resources, you know, combine purchases to

417
00:25:20,986 --> 00:25:24,818
help each other out. And that's how AAAV was born. I

418
00:25:24,874 --> 00:25:26,990
met Mac probably around

419
00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:31,746
2010, 2011, at a black History Month event

420
00:25:31,818 --> 00:25:35,502
in San Francisco. And we just. We just stayed in

421
00:25:35,526 --> 00:25:39,310
touch and became friends. I had no idea I was being groomed as his

422
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:42,782
replacement, but that's sort of the

423
00:25:42,806 --> 00:25:45,982
evolution. I. Deborah and I joined AAAAV in

424
00:25:46,006 --> 00:25:49,822
2016. He invited us

425
00:25:49,846 --> 00:25:53,566
to pour at the symposium you went to this year. That.

426
00:25:53,638 --> 00:25:57,486
That particular year was in some Sonoma. So Deborah

427
00:25:57,518 --> 00:26:00,894
and I went up and we poured and we chatted, and he called me the

428
00:26:00,902 --> 00:26:04,750
next week. He said, look, man, we need you. So. So we

429
00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:07,790
joined. And then in

430
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:11,022
2018, I became vice president. And then in

431
00:26:11,046 --> 00:26:14,610
2020, Max stepped down and I took over the reins.

432
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:18,782
And. And that's where you land today is. That'S where I

433
00:26:18,806 --> 00:26:22,606
live. Correct. But I. But the thing that was inspiring about the show,

434
00:26:22,678 --> 00:26:25,050
and I had promised Andre I would come,

435
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:29,794
and for a lot of reasons, one is I'll taste anything I can

436
00:26:29,802 --> 00:26:33,282
get my hands on. And that's. That's why we. That's how we get better at

437
00:26:33,306 --> 00:26:37,122
what we do and how we learn. But I

438
00:26:37,146 --> 00:26:39,810
thought it was fascinating and I knew a little about your history. I thought, I'm

439
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:43,442
going to come up and just see and wines are

440
00:26:43,466 --> 00:26:46,818
great. I expected no less than that and some really

441
00:26:46,954 --> 00:26:50,658
interesting stuff. But what I Found really interesting. When I was done, I was telling

442
00:26:50,674 --> 00:26:54,352
my wife, I said, you know, the concerns of

443
00:26:54,466 --> 00:26:58,068
almost everybody there weren't the race, the fact that

444
00:26:58,124 --> 00:27:01,972
we had to or make an organization called the association of African American Vendors. They

445
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:05,460
were facing the same headwinds, the same troubles, the same

446
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:09,332
marketing issues, the same social networking issues, the same manufacturing issues, the

447
00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,932
same distribution issues that just about any other winery has to go

448
00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:16,388
through. Yeah, and that's so true. I get asked all the time,

449
00:27:16,444 --> 00:27:20,212
well, you know, what were your challenges as a

450
00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:23,668
black winemaker? And then. That's exactly right. The same

451
00:27:23,724 --> 00:27:27,300
challenges of everybody else making wine. You better make good

452
00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:31,172
wine. You, you know, you better get it marketed well, you better get

453
00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:34,724
it placed well. Because, you know, look, when you're on the

454
00:27:34,732 --> 00:27:38,436
shelf, unless, you know, you don't know. So that's

455
00:27:38,468 --> 00:27:41,840
right. It better. I mean, that's where we're at a point now where

456
00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:47,844
all of our longevity portfolio that's now internationally

457
00:27:47,892 --> 00:27:51,684
distributed, the entire portfolio of longevity

458
00:27:51,732 --> 00:27:55,572
is, is 91 or more. So we're in a really

459
00:27:55,596 --> 00:27:59,268
good place with our portfolio. I'm really happy about that.

460
00:27:59,404 --> 00:28:03,200
But yeah, we got to make wine. Just as you can't rely on,

461
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:08,100
you know, a niche and be successful in this

462
00:28:08,140 --> 00:28:11,812
business. Well, that's interesting point though. So the,

463
00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:15,652
the niche is that we're African American winemakers, which is

464
00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:19,268
really cool. And you know, I think my point earlier

465
00:28:19,324 --> 00:28:22,160
about the Italians was, I don't know where,

466
00:28:22,860 --> 00:28:26,596
I'm not going to call it segregation, but sort of the, the African

467
00:28:26,628 --> 00:28:30,452
American community outside looking into the wine industry, wondering, you know, what this is all

468
00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:34,100
about, was part of, you know, the Italians,

469
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:37,940
let's face it, the Italians kind of when they get involved with an industry

470
00:28:37,980 --> 00:28:41,518
to get to kind of take over. Right. So, but I mean, that

471
00:28:41,574 --> 00:28:45,182
wasn't deliberate, obviously, but it is an intimidating subject

472
00:28:45,246 --> 00:28:49,022
for everybody. And then for a community of

473
00:28:49,046 --> 00:28:52,270
minority like the African Americans to say, you know, I think we want to do

474
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:56,030
this and you make great strides. I mean, I understand there's like two or three

475
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:59,838
hundred members now in the, in the group truth. There's the, there's around

476
00:28:59,894 --> 00:29:03,390
300 members of which in this country there's about a

477
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:06,670
hundred either black owned wineries or black

478
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:10,194
winemakers, our black wine brands in the, in the country

479
00:29:10,282 --> 00:29:14,002
today, which, you know, at 100 out of 10,000 will do the

480
00:29:14,026 --> 00:29:17,778
math. Right? Yeah. Right. It's very small, so, yeah, very

481
00:29:17,834 --> 00:29:21,634
small amount. But in the end, we got to make good wine

482
00:29:21,682 --> 00:29:24,834
just like everybody else has to make good wine. Yeah, you can't, you're right. You

483
00:29:24,842 --> 00:29:28,482
can't rely on that. No, you cannot. I mean, it's hard

484
00:29:28,506 --> 00:29:31,410
enough. There's a lot of really, really good wine out there that doesn't get any

485
00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:35,250
traction ever. No matter what, no matter who made it. Right, right. Correct.

486
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:37,390
It's a tough industry. Especially.

487
00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:42,802
So that landing with the Franzi is, you know, I

488
00:29:42,826 --> 00:29:46,450
wanna, it was a great story that you just told about, you know,

489
00:29:46,490 --> 00:29:50,114
sitting with them and seeing these people on the, in the picture and, and realizing,

490
00:29:50,162 --> 00:29:53,266
you know, where you're at. I mean, that's kind of what's happening, right? Like, wow,

491
00:29:53,298 --> 00:29:57,010
how did I get here? That's, that was exactly it. And be. And be

492
00:29:57,050 --> 00:30:00,738
successful. And so when you mentioned worldwide, what's. Is that change?

493
00:30:00,794 --> 00:30:04,370
Is that new that you've gone international? We've been

494
00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:08,216
shipping to Japan, I think, for a couple

495
00:30:08,248 --> 00:30:12,020
years. We've been shipping to the United Kingdom for a couple years.

496
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,296
I, I would like to. International markets are really

497
00:30:16,368 --> 00:30:19,460
fickle market, so I mean, I'd like to do more,

498
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,352
but it's, it's, it's definitely an interesting market to deal

499
00:30:25,376 --> 00:30:29,192
with. So we're gonna, we're keep picking at it and see if we

500
00:30:29,216 --> 00:30:32,680
can do more. But, you know, we're really relying upon our

501
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,120
partnership with, you know, Bronco and RNDC here

502
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:40,396
to really fulfill the goals we're trying to reach. You know, it's interesting

503
00:30:40,428 --> 00:30:44,252
because usually, at least in today's world, if I wanted to set out and make

504
00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:48,124
wine, actually, I do have a license to. I have an O2, actually. Okay,

505
00:30:48,172 --> 00:30:51,560
well, but there you go.

506
00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:54,080
I have a fruit press around here somewhere.

507
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:58,920
But, you know, typically, even with

508
00:30:59,390 --> 00:31:03,046
pedigree kids that are up in Napa, who, you know, went to Napa

509
00:31:03,078 --> 00:31:06,918
High School, you know, they, they're not going to get a free hall pass

510
00:31:06,974 --> 00:31:10,502
to get into a book. They, they have to go earn that stripe, which is

511
00:31:10,526 --> 00:31:14,230
typically getting, let's say 100 placements on their own. They take their wine to

512
00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:16,870
drive it around. They, they put it in a restaurant, they put it in a

513
00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:20,214
store, and then they go to a wholesaler and say, Look, I've got 100 places.

514
00:31:20,262 --> 00:31:23,654
Because most wholesalers aren't going to build your brand

515
00:31:23,822 --> 00:31:27,346
right. You get to build the brand right. And then they'll take it over once,

516
00:31:27,418 --> 00:31:30,530
once you have enough traction that they feel that they can make some money. And

517
00:31:30,570 --> 00:31:34,274
even today I, I find that distributors, I mean, they're, look, they're,

518
00:31:34,322 --> 00:31:38,082
they're great, but they're pretty much right paper. That's, that's kind

519
00:31:38,106 --> 00:31:41,954
of the, the Goal to build a brand, you've got to be out there in

520
00:31:41,962 --> 00:31:45,666
the market. You've got to be out there in the field. You know, thank goodness

521
00:31:45,698 --> 00:31:48,962
I get to work with some really great people at Bronco that are. That are

522
00:31:48,986 --> 00:31:52,700
in the field pushing the brand and, you know, pulling things like, you know,

523
00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:56,412
next week's wine, dinner together or market visits. There's just a

524
00:31:56,436 --> 00:32:00,012
whole itinerary for me when I get there. So I've got a lot of help,

525
00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:03,852
which is great, but, you know, but I got to. I got to

526
00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:07,320
be there to really make the next

527
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:11,244
level of difference. They're doing a great job, but, you know, my hit rate if

528
00:32:11,252 --> 00:32:15,052
I walk in the door is 100%, so. But there's only one

529
00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:18,620
of me. Well, that's a, That's a really, really good

530
00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:22,184
point. And I've done a lot of these dinners over the years,

531
00:32:22,352 --> 00:32:25,880
and the, the number one thing, whether it was

532
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,672
Gwanak or the Langtree family or whoever it was that was

533
00:32:29,696 --> 00:32:33,256
coming down to do a tasting with me or dinner

534
00:32:33,368 --> 00:32:37,192
is like, let's sell some wine. Right? Like, I love doing this. And, I

535
00:32:37,216 --> 00:32:39,464
mean, you have to feel like a little bit of a celebrity, right? When you

536
00:32:39,472 --> 00:32:42,264
walk into a room like that and everybody's hanging on every word you said and

537
00:32:42,272 --> 00:32:45,902
they showed up and paid money to hear you speak and, and, and eat

538
00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:49,790
and have a meal with you, it's. It is

539
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:53,566
a little surreal, a little different from what I. You know, I didn't

540
00:32:53,598 --> 00:32:56,970
expect that to be part of the gig, but,

541
00:32:57,510 --> 00:33:01,278
yeah, it's a. It's a little bit like that. I mean, I'm. I'm

542
00:33:01,294 --> 00:33:04,846
getting to know some great people, you know, members of the aaav. Dwayne

543
00:33:04,878 --> 00:33:08,718
Wade's a member. John Legend's a member. Yeah, so it's

544
00:33:08,734 --> 00:33:12,520
a. It's an interesting world, but you're right. It's about moving cases. We just did

545
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,360
a. Just a small wine dinner at a country club in,

546
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,040
In Florida. I think There were about 18 tickets that were

547
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,660
bought, but we sold 20 cases.

548
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Wow, that's pretty. I know, right? So

549
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,940
normally it's the other way around, but, yeah,

550
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,488
being there, it makes all the difference in the world. What

551
00:33:34,544 --> 00:33:37,620
were some of the headwinds that you didn't expect

552
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:41,650
when you started this? Like, you did it as a hobby? You.

553
00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:47,670
I don't like, did you expect the margins to be as difficult as they

554
00:33:47,710 --> 00:33:51,270
are, or did you. Were there headwinds that you. That you

555
00:33:51,310 --> 00:33:55,062
encountered that you thought were racially motivated? I mean, was

556
00:33:55,086 --> 00:33:58,902
there something that just said, wow, I Didn't expect this, but let's go at

557
00:33:58,926 --> 00:34:02,646
it. So when we opened in Livermore, they're really.

558
00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:06,296
I didn't face any really real

559
00:34:06,368 --> 00:34:10,168
racial barriers. Now I didn't. Now, I'm not saying others

560
00:34:10,224 --> 00:34:13,880
don't, but personally, I didn't. I think,

561
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,576
going back to our previous conversation, it's the same as everybody

562
00:34:17,608 --> 00:34:21,000
else. I think for me, you know, jumping into

563
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,712
wine at 40 something, as far as, you know, producing

564
00:34:24,856 --> 00:34:28,696
wine for others, there's

565
00:34:28,728 --> 00:34:32,344
so much you don't know. Yeah. You know, I didn't go. I don't have a

566
00:34:32,352 --> 00:34:35,740
degree in analogy. You know, I never went for viticulture

567
00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:40,070
and analogy, which my son is actually doing now. So I

568
00:34:40,110 --> 00:34:43,814
had to learn everything in the school of hard knocks, having

569
00:34:43,902 --> 00:34:47,734
mentors making mistakes. And I remember

570
00:34:47,782 --> 00:34:51,530
saying to myself one time, I just want to learn how to make wine

571
00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:54,742
so I don't have to know how to fix stuff. I just know how to

572
00:34:54,766 --> 00:34:56,810
make it so I don't have to fix. Yeah.

573
00:34:58,830 --> 00:35:02,470
So that's a noble pursuit. That is a great

574
00:35:02,510 --> 00:35:06,332
pursuit. So, yeah, there's always obstacles in

575
00:35:06,356 --> 00:35:10,076
the way. I mean, even today, there's obstacles, as you well know, with the,

576
00:35:10,228 --> 00:35:13,596
you know, the whole N A or non

577
00:35:13,668 --> 00:35:17,420
A movement that's happening, the restructuring

578
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,080
of and moving of all the distributors.

579
00:35:21,380 --> 00:35:24,924
You know, every. Everybody's going through sort of a re something,

580
00:35:25,092 --> 00:35:28,796
which I'm just hoping that it settles down so we can,

581
00:35:28,868 --> 00:35:32,562
you know, get to work. Well, I think you are

582
00:35:32,666 --> 00:35:36,190
on that path. And I get this question all the time as well,

583
00:35:36,810 --> 00:35:40,546
you know, as a DTC consultant, because we've

584
00:35:40,578 --> 00:35:44,322
done it all here. We've. We've seen it all. We've. I sent. My

585
00:35:44,346 --> 00:35:47,922
last full year in business, I sent 33 million emails out.

586
00:35:48,106 --> 00:35:51,922
You know, we were all about those kinds of things. And I think what

587
00:35:51,946 --> 00:35:55,772
you're doing in the. In your Livermore facility, that and

588
00:35:55,796 --> 00:35:59,580
these dinners is really what used to happen with this badge here. This is

589
00:35:59,620 --> 00:36:03,292
Les Ami Devan. It was my dad's badge when he had a. A chapter in

590
00:36:03,316 --> 00:36:06,764
1975. Wow. And. And people would come together.

591
00:36:06,852 --> 00:36:10,652
Mandavi would show up and taste with them. They'd have these dinners that

592
00:36:10,676 --> 00:36:14,332
women were dressed up. You know, they went. In my case, we lived in the

593
00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:17,372
beach area, so they go to Marine Land at their banquet room.

594
00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:21,080
And the experiential side of wine is

595
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,120
the slow grind. Wine's a slow business. I mean, it's once a year.

596
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,848
Right. You only get one chance a year to do it. One shot. The marketing

597
00:36:28,864 --> 00:36:32,624
of. It's pretty much the same. And I think that is pulling back

598
00:36:32,712 --> 00:36:36,240
because the barrage of messaging on the social side of things

599
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,536
and. And the generational gap between wine

600
00:36:39,728 --> 00:36:43,520
buyers and, you know, what's on the marketplace is. Has

601
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,256
to find its bottom, and then it'll rebuild through

602
00:36:47,328 --> 00:36:50,472
things. Like what you're doing with the experience of wine

603
00:36:50,536 --> 00:36:54,312
becomes the. The experience of wine rather than the

604
00:36:54,336 --> 00:36:58,120
package or a can or a Tetra pack or whatever silly things

605
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,912
are going on out there. Well, you're constantly trying to hone in

606
00:37:01,936 --> 00:37:05,448
on that target, but the target keeps. Moving,

607
00:37:05,624 --> 00:37:09,144
and that's because it moves. The. The marketing of wine can move so fast.

608
00:37:09,192 --> 00:37:13,026
Like, let's just take non Elk for a second. I had the pleasure

609
00:37:13,058 --> 00:37:16,658
of. And when cans first came out, I had the

610
00:37:16,794 --> 00:37:20,642
experience to taste a wine that was bottled from the same vineyard. The same

611
00:37:20,666 --> 00:37:24,274
manufacturing one went in the can, and some of it went into a bottle. I

612
00:37:24,282 --> 00:37:27,030
got to taste those side by side, and they were different wines,

613
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:31,346
you know, dramatically different, but they were different. And I also had the chance recently

614
00:37:31,418 --> 00:37:34,706
to taste the same vineyard designated Pinot

615
00:37:34,738 --> 00:37:38,434
Noir. Non alk version of it and the alk version of

616
00:37:38,442 --> 00:37:41,550
it. I mean, a huge difference. I mean, they don't. I mean.

617
00:37:41,850 --> 00:37:45,682
Right. And I don't. I have this romantic thing

618
00:37:45,706 --> 00:37:49,474
like, why would you drink a non Al wine

619
00:37:49,522 --> 00:37:52,914
when they're. They're just not any good? There's. They're not pleasant.

620
00:37:53,042 --> 00:37:56,866
Right. It's not. Going to the Florida Country Club and having a glass

621
00:37:56,898 --> 00:38:00,578
of wine, you know, with Phil Long at a dinner, you. You can't do it.

622
00:38:00,634 --> 00:38:04,470
It doesn't. It doesn't work that way. And I've not tasted

623
00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:08,250
very many NA wines, but the movement itself

624
00:38:08,590 --> 00:38:12,422
is huge. There's. There's mocktail bars opening all over

625
00:38:12,446 --> 00:38:16,246
the place. Like, really? I've never seen one. Yeah, we've got. There's

626
00:38:16,278 --> 00:38:19,990
at least two new ones here in D.C. that just serve mocktails.

627
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:21,890
You know, I don't. Maybe I'm old.

628
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:27,302
We're both in that same boat, man. So, again, the

629
00:38:27,326 --> 00:38:30,998
target keeps moving. Do you. Is it a fad? Is it a trend?

630
00:38:31,094 --> 00:38:34,786
Is it a. The direction? Who knows? Like I said, the target doesn't

631
00:38:34,818 --> 00:38:38,150
stay in one place. Well, I kind of feel like it's

632
00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:42,130
like the Boone's Farm, you know, it's gonna come and go. The

633
00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:45,858
Matuse. Well, Lancers is still around, I think, but

634
00:38:45,914 --> 00:38:49,634
all those various blips in.

635
00:38:49,802 --> 00:38:53,650
In the wine trade, that spike in valley, and you know, that they just

636
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:57,138
come from seasonal things and not seasonal being along.

637
00:38:57,274 --> 00:39:01,014
Potentially a long thing. Because the non Al people are pushing it hard and that's

638
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:04,022
fine. And I, we went to the fancy food show in Vegas a couple years

639
00:39:04,046 --> 00:39:07,670
ago, and the main push for beverage at that

640
00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:11,494
show, particular show, was non al distilled spirits and

641
00:39:11,502 --> 00:39:15,222
non alcohol. But again. And I had

642
00:39:15,246 --> 00:39:18,166
this conversation yesterday with a woman

643
00:39:18,318 --> 00:39:22,054
who's. Who's taken the Bible and all the references

644
00:39:22,102 --> 00:39:25,464
to wine and has crafted a message about wine

645
00:39:25,662 --> 00:39:28,932
and the human soul and Christianity and the

646
00:39:28,956 --> 00:39:32,612
Bible. And I've always tried to define why wine

647
00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:36,372
has such a connection to the human soul. It's

648
00:39:36,436 --> 00:39:40,260
almost indescribable. I've never had a winemaker explain exactly why he

649
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:43,400
thinks the grape is this conduit

650
00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:47,892
that is like no other beverage. White Claw is

651
00:39:47,916 --> 00:39:51,572
not going to do it for you in that regard. Right. So

652
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:55,420
wine has a unique place. I think it does. And it kind of goes back

653
00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:59,260
to it defining, you know, when I said experience. Well, what.

654
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,508
What does that mean? Well, it means it's not just about the

655
00:40:02,564 --> 00:40:06,380
beverage and the nuances and the

656
00:40:06,420 --> 00:40:09,800
palate and the sense. It's not. It's about

657
00:40:10,260 --> 00:40:14,060
where you were. It's about who you're with. It's about the

658
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:17,420
time you had it. It's about that memory of the

659
00:40:17,460 --> 00:40:20,614
experience. It's not just the wine. The wines

660
00:40:20,772 --> 00:40:24,610
helping really create an experience that you

661
00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:27,650
take with you where you're right, you're not going to get that from a can

662
00:40:27,690 --> 00:40:31,470
of butt. It's just, no, it's not gonna happen. Or Schliss, for that matter.

663
00:40:32,170 --> 00:40:35,682
Exactly. So I, you know, that's how I

664
00:40:35,706 --> 00:40:39,378
define it. It's probably pretty poor, the defense definition, but

665
00:40:39,514 --> 00:40:43,170
it really is about the experience. Well, let's just

666
00:40:43,210 --> 00:40:45,910
take. You're talking about Dwayne Wade and John Legend

667
00:40:46,740 --> 00:40:48,920
have their. Have. Have their

668
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:53,852
participation in the industry and their propensity towards wine. And I've. I've had

669
00:40:53,876 --> 00:40:57,148
both. I think they're great. I sold a lot of John Legend wines here. Love

670
00:40:57,204 --> 00:41:00,760
when we were. When I was selling under the Boise group.

671
00:41:02,580 --> 00:41:06,284
Has that had an effect on the popularity of wine in the African

672
00:41:06,332 --> 00:41:09,840
American community and engaged more discussion,

673
00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:14,388
more curiosity? Oh, for sure. Any, you know,

674
00:41:14,444 --> 00:41:18,200
any engagement from the culture.

675
00:41:18,540 --> 00:41:22,180
The more, the more representation we

676
00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:25,732
have, you know, the better it's going to be.

677
00:41:25,916 --> 00:41:29,412
The problem is there's just not that much of it, so to

678
00:41:29,436 --> 00:41:33,268
speak. So. So that's, you know, one of the reasons we struggle. But yeah, I

679
00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:36,980
mean, I. John and I are good friends. I had his

680
00:41:37,020 --> 00:41:40,746
wine great. I'm great friends with Jean Charles. They're

681
00:41:40,778 --> 00:41:44,310
all, you know, big supporters of Aaaav. So,

682
00:41:44,850 --> 00:41:48,602
no, I think it's a positive for, you know, there's the people that have

683
00:41:48,626 --> 00:41:51,930
the money that can do it that way, and there's the people like me who.

684
00:41:52,050 --> 00:41:55,738
Who didn't and did it that way. So it doesn't really matter in the

685
00:41:55,794 --> 00:41:59,310
end, you know, we're stronger together than we are apart.

686
00:41:59,890 --> 00:42:02,790
That's a good point. This.

687
00:42:03,650 --> 00:42:07,394
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Right. I have to

688
00:42:07,402 --> 00:42:10,786
say, whenever we. We're in Napa quite frequently, and we hang in Yonville

689
00:42:10,818 --> 00:42:14,658
typically, and if I have friends

690
00:42:14,714 --> 00:42:17,778
that come or visit us, I have to take them to

691
00:42:17,834 --> 00:42:21,682
Boisse's atelier there because it's just such

692
00:42:21,706 --> 00:42:24,590
a departure from what people think the wine industry is about.

693
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:30,242
Yeah, it's a little. It's a little different. And

694
00:42:30,266 --> 00:42:34,008
this is the came down version. I. I hear the version he wanted to open

695
00:42:34,064 --> 00:42:37,896
was a little too risque, and he had to tone it down a bit.

696
00:42:38,048 --> 00:42:41,736
Yeah, I had this behind me, behind the wall. You see there. There's

697
00:42:41,768 --> 00:42:45,560
a. There was. My wine shop was there, and. And. And I

698
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,336
actually went with this sort of graffiti, you know, grunge look. It's

699
00:42:49,368 --> 00:42:52,232
really cool, actually. I had a graffiti artist come in and do it. But when

700
00:42:52,256 --> 00:42:55,944
you walked into the building, I was trying to copy the Raymond

701
00:42:55,992 --> 00:42:59,816
Red room that John Charles created. And my wife's

702
00:42:59,848 --> 00:43:03,664
like. And there's an auction house down here called R.L. spear, and

703
00:43:03,672 --> 00:43:07,376
they have. It's mostly props they. They just. They commissioned with prop

704
00:43:07,448 --> 00:43:10,976
houses. And so these giant stuffed white polar

705
00:43:11,008 --> 00:43:12,580
bears came up for sale.

706
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,624
And I already had painted the room this red, you know, this. This

707
00:43:18,792 --> 00:43:22,624
bodello red. And my wife's like, what are you doing? I said, I want

708
00:43:22,632 --> 00:43:26,464
to be like Jean Charles. And so fortunately, she. For

709
00:43:26,472 --> 00:43:29,740
her, the bear went for more than I was willing to pay.

710
00:43:30,510 --> 00:43:34,326
So we did not have a giant white stuffed polar bear in the wine

711
00:43:34,358 --> 00:43:37,010
shop. But, you know, I think those.

712
00:43:38,190 --> 00:43:41,142
I think those are part of the industry. I think you need to do those

713
00:43:41,166 --> 00:43:44,982
things. I mean, that people accuse John Charles of ruining Buena Vista because

714
00:43:45,006 --> 00:43:48,566
it was such a historical place in Sonoma and turning it Frenchie.

715
00:43:48,598 --> 00:43:52,422
But you know what? I think that's part of the industry. The wines are good.

716
00:43:52,526 --> 00:43:56,000
They're solid. He knows what he's doing in that regard. I love his

717
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,872
father's burgundies. You know, we. We. We

718
00:43:59,896 --> 00:44:03,300
bring our personality to the table, and that's. I think that's perfectly fine

719
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,392
to do that. Yeah. When I first saw the. The Napoleon

720
00:44:07,456 --> 00:44:11,184
signs walking up the walk at Bu. I'm like, oh, my God,

721
00:44:11,232 --> 00:44:15,024
what's happened? But after I got to be friends with

722
00:44:15,032 --> 00:44:18,512
Jo, I've taken people there, and it's still a great winery.

723
00:44:18,576 --> 00:44:22,240
Great. Now you get it. We even. We've even thought

724
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,974
about using it as a wedding venue. So we'll. Wow.

725
00:44:26,102 --> 00:44:29,398
Yeah. So we'll see. So what's. What's next with

726
00:44:29,454 --> 00:44:33,046
longevity? What do you. What. What do you set your sights on? I know that

727
00:44:33,118 --> 00:44:36,726
we're trying to weather this cycle here,

728
00:44:36,878 --> 00:44:40,710
and it will happen. And I think my general advice to most

729
00:44:40,750 --> 00:44:44,214
of the wineries that are doing this is just stay the course.

730
00:44:44,382 --> 00:44:47,638
But what. What's on the horizon? More varietals,

731
00:44:47,814 --> 00:44:51,552
techniques? What are you working on? You know, it's interesting when

732
00:44:51,576 --> 00:44:55,168
you're partnered with somebody like a Franzi

733
00:44:55,264 --> 00:44:58,976
family or a Bronco, you know, you have opportunities aren't

734
00:44:59,008 --> 00:45:02,800
necessarily presented. They weren't presented to me before.

735
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,208
So, you know, line extensions. We can present a line

736
00:45:06,264 --> 00:45:10,032
extension based on. On the need. Not necessarily because we

737
00:45:10,056 --> 00:45:13,296
decided to plant, you know, eight years ago, this particular

738
00:45:13,368 --> 00:45:17,180
varietal, so we can kind of move with

739
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,088
the industry. You know, we've gone through

740
00:45:21,224 --> 00:45:25,024
an interesting transition. One of Fred's love

741
00:45:25,112 --> 00:45:28,400
was the Helix cork. So when

742
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,696
we debuted nationally, we debuted with the Helix

743
00:45:31,728 --> 00:45:35,184
cork. His cork didn't work. It

744
00:45:35,352 --> 00:45:38,940
worked as a product. It didn't work as a product.

745
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,814
The public embraced. Yep. So

746
00:45:42,992 --> 00:45:46,514
once we abandoned that and our scores shot

747
00:45:46,562 --> 00:45:50,178
up, you know, we're just now starting to get traction. But

748
00:45:50,234 --> 00:45:53,762
just as you start to get real traction, you know, like, RN DC is

749
00:45:53,786 --> 00:45:57,570
restructured three times in the last 18 months, that.

750
00:45:57,610 --> 00:46:01,090
That doesn't help. Right. You know, we've got a new

751
00:46:01,210 --> 00:46:03,830
CEO at Bronco.

752
00:46:04,970 --> 00:46:08,398
You know, he's. He's figured out his stride.

753
00:46:08,594 --> 00:46:12,182
So, you know, and on top of that, the market is what the

754
00:46:12,206 --> 00:46:15,958
market is. And, you know, if you have. If you have

755
00:46:16,014 --> 00:46:19,862
deletes on any chain to

756
00:46:19,886 --> 00:46:23,734
get back though that shelf space, it's a. It's a. It's a

757
00:46:23,822 --> 00:46:27,286
steep uphill climb. So, yeah,

758
00:46:27,318 --> 00:46:30,102
Helix didn't help with that. But. But like I said, I think we're in a

759
00:46:30,126 --> 00:46:33,686
really good place now. I think we're. We've

760
00:46:33,718 --> 00:46:37,536
addressed all of the issues, and we. We just got to really just

761
00:46:37,608 --> 00:46:40,864
keep pedaling right now, and I think we're gonna. We're gonna get to where we

762
00:46:40,872 --> 00:46:44,224
need to be. I didn't know that that was his product. I remember that. I

763
00:46:44,232 --> 00:46:47,984
remember it. I saw a few of them come through here. You know, the

764
00:46:47,992 --> 00:46:51,440
one thing about wine, the month Club was. And I started on Tuesday mornings. Every

765
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,072
morning for 35 years. Tuesdays, pure habit. I would start

766
00:46:55,096 --> 00:46:58,688
tasting wine nine to two. And you saw everything, right? I mean you saw

767
00:46:58,744 --> 00:47:02,546
every trend and everything that was contemporary or not working. I saw flavor

768
00:47:02,578 --> 00:47:05,714
to everything. I mean it was just unbelievable what would come through the doors here.

769
00:47:05,802 --> 00:47:09,070
And I would made sure I, I tasted it, you know, whether it was.

770
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:13,282
Had any potential at all to be in the club. It didn't matter. I would

771
00:47:13,306 --> 00:47:16,882
just taste it. But you said something. I wanted to bring this up. Chastity

772
00:47:16,946 --> 00:47:20,754
Cooper posted the Constellation

773
00:47:20,882 --> 00:47:23,986
article about Constellation Brands possibly selling off

774
00:47:24,138 --> 00:47:27,954
their, their wine sect sector which includes Mondavi and some amazing

775
00:47:28,002 --> 00:47:31,702
brands. And I. You know how you post. If somebody posts something, you make

776
00:47:31,726 --> 00:47:35,350
a reply. Usually the reply goes unnoticed or just somebody responds once

777
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:39,062
like the author of the article. But the most I had like

778
00:47:39,086 --> 00:47:42,710
eight people respond to what I wrote after she

779
00:47:42,750 --> 00:47:46,294
posted it. And I wrote the margins

780
00:47:46,342 --> 00:47:49,862
suck. There's a generation, generational gap, dip in

781
00:47:49,886 --> 00:47:53,494
sales. There was too much crap put on the market that flooded and

782
00:47:53,662 --> 00:47:56,410
produce a sour taste for wine, pun intended.

783
00:47:57,340 --> 00:48:01,188
But the good news is the product is 12,000

784
00:48:01,244 --> 00:48:05,044
years, 12,000 years old. It's probably not going anywhere. Right. And I

785
00:48:05,052 --> 00:48:08,200
think that's the stay the course part of the conversation.

786
00:48:08,860 --> 00:48:11,480
I don't think wine's going anywhere.

787
00:48:12,940 --> 00:48:15,764
You know, people say it, it's, it's

788
00:48:15,812 --> 00:48:19,320
cyclical, you know, kind of like global warming.

789
00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:23,972
If it's cyclical, it's definitely not revisiting anywhere it's been

790
00:48:23,996 --> 00:48:27,766
before. No, that's true. Like I said, it's

791
00:48:27,798 --> 00:48:31,334
a movement. You got to figure it out. You just have to, you gotta bob

792
00:48:31,382 --> 00:48:34,422
and weave and you've got to anticipate the unexpected

793
00:48:34,566 --> 00:48:38,246
and, and adjust, you know, innovate, adapt and overcome

794
00:48:38,278 --> 00:48:41,782
as they said in the movie. So that's what you've got to keep

795
00:48:41,806 --> 00:48:45,574
doing. There is. And we're out of time here. But I do want to

796
00:48:45,582 --> 00:48:49,014
bring this up. There was. There is a contemporary movement

797
00:48:49,062 --> 00:48:52,710
there, younger folks in the industry that

798
00:48:52,750 --> 00:48:55,590
haven't gone through the school of hard knocks like you have and I have and

799
00:48:55,630 --> 00:48:59,266
had to suffer through these cycles and understand. Try to try to figure out what

800
00:48:59,338 --> 00:49:03,042
the next step is. Because the agriculture is slow

801
00:49:03,106 --> 00:49:06,754
and as we talked about it's one time a year and you, you're thinking

802
00:49:06,802 --> 00:49:09,762
five to seven years out of what you're going to be doing and. Right. If

803
00:49:09,786 --> 00:49:13,410
the marketplace doesn't cooperate, you know, you, you've got decisions to make.

804
00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:17,314
Correct. But one of the things is innovation. Somebody posted an Article

805
00:49:17,402 --> 00:49:21,154
about they visited Paris wine and this Guy had sold

806
00:49:21,202 --> 00:49:24,812
24 million bottles in six month of, you know, peach

807
00:49:24,876 --> 00:49:28,572
flavored wine. And, and it was fermented grape juice, but

808
00:49:28,756 --> 00:49:32,012
nothing. You can't call it wine in the sense of what you and I are

809
00:49:32,036 --> 00:49:35,452
talking about. And so I always wonder what you thought of like this. What is

810
00:49:35,476 --> 00:49:38,972
this innovation idea? What does it mean? What does that

811
00:49:38,996 --> 00:49:42,460
mean? Let's innovate. Does it mean we innovate at the winery and

812
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:46,332
create a better version of what we are? Or

813
00:49:46,356 --> 00:49:50,028
does it mean we go after packaging ideas and

814
00:49:50,084 --> 00:49:53,870
we have, you know, thinner cans or taller bottles or whatever those they're going on.

815
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:57,662
What, what would that mean to you? Is there any thought process on

816
00:49:57,846 --> 00:50:01,662
innovation in this industry? I mean, if you, it's interesting.

817
00:50:01,726 --> 00:50:04,782
Innovation in this industry is a long,

818
00:50:04,966 --> 00:50:08,718
slow train, right? If you look at a bottle of wine,

819
00:50:08,734 --> 00:50:12,370
if there was no label on the bottle and no capsule,

820
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:16,542
that exact bottle, the only development there was

821
00:50:16,646 --> 00:50:19,550
was when they figured out that they should make a punt so it would stand

822
00:50:19,590 --> 00:50:22,800
up straight. Right. Other than that

823
00:50:23,260 --> 00:50:26,836
change, that was the innovative part of the bottle.

824
00:50:26,948 --> 00:50:30,660
So there hasn't been a lot of innovation.

825
00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:34,100
You know, obviously labels are here, they're all over the place

826
00:50:34,140 --> 00:50:37,860
and how you label the bottle, there's many ways you can do that

827
00:50:37,900 --> 00:50:41,620
now, but overall there's not a lot of innovation.

828
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:45,460
So coming out with, you know, what do you do and so

829
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,188
call it. Why? Well, you can do, you know, we have a label called Four

830
00:50:49,244 --> 00:50:52,870
Hearts, which is slightly frizz a

831
00:50:53,330 --> 00:50:57,178
better for you flavored Moscato available Total Wine. There's

832
00:50:57,194 --> 00:51:00,874
a black cherry flavor and there's a honeydew melon flavor.

833
00:51:01,002 --> 00:51:04,426
Again, a little bit different, you know, different

834
00:51:04,498 --> 00:51:08,218
audience. You know, four and a half percent alcohol, 80

835
00:51:08,274 --> 00:51:12,106
calories a glass or something. So it's not, it's.

836
00:51:12,218 --> 00:51:15,194
That's innovative. You know, people are coming. Like I saw

837
00:51:15,362 --> 00:51:19,148
Matua has mature, you know, New Zealand SA Blanc,

838
00:51:19,244 --> 00:51:22,956
but they also have one called Lighter which is like eight.

839
00:51:23,028 --> 00:51:26,732
I, I think, don't quote me, eight something alcohol and

840
00:51:26,756 --> 00:51:30,604
less calories. That's right, yeah. So there's always going to

841
00:51:30,612 --> 00:51:33,980
be these little variations that continue to change to try to

842
00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:37,868
answer the consumer's desire at the time. Like,

843
00:51:37,924 --> 00:51:41,292
like right now, like the big

844
00:51:41,476 --> 00:51:45,160
over the top alcohol wines are coming into focus. Why

845
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,660
are people buying 16 and a half percent alcohol wine? I know, right?

846
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,456
I don't get it. But it's, but it's a thing. But it's a different direction

847
00:51:52,488 --> 00:51:55,736
than what the other direction was. Correct. It's A totally different

848
00:51:55,808 --> 00:51:59,368
direction. So I think innovation within the industry is,

849
00:51:59,424 --> 00:52:03,032
is those sort of idiosyncrasies rather

850
00:52:03,096 --> 00:52:06,552
than. I mean we've all seen somebody. You put wine in a

851
00:52:06,576 --> 00:52:10,104
box that's only so successful. You put wine in a

852
00:52:10,112 --> 00:52:13,496
can that's only so successful. Overall,

853
00:52:13,688 --> 00:52:17,224
the bottles aren't going away, you know.

854
00:52:17,312 --> 00:52:20,940
And like I said, the punt was the genius.

855
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,336
Yeah, that was big. And the cork, you know, that was it. Madame

856
00:52:25,368 --> 00:52:28,580
Clico did.

857
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,840
But that's a. Interesting thought because I wonder.

858
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,744
I contacted, Remember Ariel, the, the non alkal wine that's been. I

859
00:52:36,752 --> 00:52:40,476
mean I was stocking non alkaline in my dad's wine shop. So it's

860
00:52:40,508 --> 00:52:43,996
not new. Right. It's been around. It's always been the same

861
00:52:44,068 --> 00:52:47,676
suffer, suffer. You suffer through drinking a glass of it. But I

862
00:52:47,748 --> 00:52:51,212
contacted, I think it was Rodney Strong makes that particular brand.

863
00:52:51,316 --> 00:52:54,972
And I go, he goes, it's. It's 3% of our sales, you

864
00:52:54,996 --> 00:52:58,680
know. And so I'm wondering if, if any of these things ever become

865
00:52:59,060 --> 00:53:02,892
the major traction. These,

866
00:53:02,996 --> 00:53:06,382
these innovative ideas, flavored wines,

867
00:53:06,516 --> 00:53:10,250
cans, Tetra packs, whatever, ever become a major part of the sales

868
00:53:10,330 --> 00:53:14,138
volume of a regular brand like Longevity, that makes Cabernet

869
00:53:14,154 --> 00:53:17,770
and makes Infinil mix, whatever. And we have, you have to have these other things

870
00:53:17,810 --> 00:53:21,402
on the shelf. Like you said, total wine. Yeah. I think those

871
00:53:21,426 --> 00:53:25,162
customers, pardon the pun, the longevity of wine is going to

872
00:53:25,186 --> 00:53:28,922
be. What we know is wine. I think that's it. Like you said, the

873
00:53:28,946 --> 00:53:32,650
non alks, they're going to come and they're going. They're being introduced to a new

874
00:53:32,690 --> 00:53:36,330
audience for all intents and purposes. So they're not the ones that sort of

875
00:53:36,370 --> 00:53:40,202
have that background inherent in them of knowing what other wines are

876
00:53:40,226 --> 00:53:43,194
like. And if they get on board with the non elk and they think this

877
00:53:43,202 --> 00:53:46,538
is good for you and this is what wine tastes like because they really don't

878
00:53:46,554 --> 00:53:49,882
have any experience what wine tastes like. Right. And I think it's going to be

879
00:53:49,906 --> 00:53:53,610
around to a small degree, but I think it's going to hit little blips

880
00:53:53,690 --> 00:53:57,194
and, and come and go. Just. I think they're going to be the little

881
00:53:57,362 --> 00:54:01,002
innovative things. They're going to be temporary blips on the scale. Then I don't think

882
00:54:01,026 --> 00:54:04,694
they're going to have a huge long term trajectory like, like a

883
00:54:04,702 --> 00:54:07,490
normal bottle of wine would. That's a.

884
00:54:09,150 --> 00:54:12,250
I think that's what I think. That's my opinion.

885
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:16,726
Well, it's been a wonderful conversation. We're already at 50 minutes. So happy

886
00:54:16,758 --> 00:54:20,090
we had a chance to connect and get you. Catch you away here in Maryland.

887
00:54:20,590 --> 00:54:24,294
Good luck with your wine. Dinner coming up. Oh, thank you. Be successful, be a

888
00:54:24,302 --> 00:54:26,950
lot of fun. I'd love to visit one of those. I'd love to come see

889
00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:30,672
Livermore. I've not been up in years. Are you guys putting on another

890
00:54:30,776 --> 00:54:34,368
tasting for the AAAB again soon?

891
00:54:34,504 --> 00:54:38,352
Yes, and we're in the planning stages of

892
00:54:38,376 --> 00:54:41,840
the next symposium. I. I don't know if we have a date

893
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,632
but as soon as we do we'll be publishing it for sure. And

894
00:54:45,656 --> 00:54:48,720
now we're going to. Was that open to the public? I don't think it was.

895
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,320
Was it? I believe it was. Yeah, it was open to the public.

896
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,016
Okay. Again thanks for the time today

897
00:54:56,088 --> 00:54:59,808
and fascinating conversation and I hope we get a chance to shake hands again

898
00:54:59,864 --> 00:55:03,180
next time we other. Yeah, I look forward to it. Thanks a lot,

899
00:55:03,220 --> 00:55:04,140
Paul. Cheers.