March 5, 2026
Inside Bordeaux: Wine, Terroir, and Emotional Experiences with Dominique Arangoits
When I visited Paris in 1993, I had been helping my parents sell my grandmothers house. My father said "we are taking you and Sandra to Tour D'Argent." THe whole story for another time.
My father spoke French to the Sommelier and asked for the 1945 Lafite Rothschild...an epic of the epics. At that time, it was $3,500. As the Sommelier presented the bottle in it's wicker carrier, the age of the crust and the caking of the dust was admiarable. There was considerable ullage (the air gap bewteen the cork and the wine).
In French, my father suggests "Open it, it is fine, I buy it, if is over the hill, you buy it "...the reply? "Non, Monsieur"
He order the 1962 Cos D'Estrournel.
So when I heard the Techinical Director, Dominique Arangoits was in town, I had to sit for a podcast. I can guarantee you that my French is much better now.
Dominique Arangoits wasn’t raised on grand cru vineyards or surrounded by the opulent châteaux that so often feature in Bordeaux lore. Instead, he began his story in the rugged Basque country, a region where the mountains meet the Spanish border and family tradition meant tending to a small patch of vines for homemade wine. There’s something poetic in how his early memories, flavored by the modest vineyard his grandfather cared for, foreshadowed a journey that would lead him to the highest echelons of wine science and estate management.
In this episode, Dominique’s story unfolds with the humility and curiosity of someone who didn’t set out to be a winemaker, but who became one by way of chance and passion. He recounts to Paul Kalemkiarian how agronomy studies in Bordeaux presented the fork in the road—that pivotal moment when Dominique first glimpsed the bridge between science and art, and realized that winemaking could be not just a career, but a lifelong passion. From there, the journey took him abroad to Hungary’s Tokaj region, where he learned the complexities of building a winery from scratch; returning to France, he brought those lessons to Cos d’Estournel, entrusted with one of the most ambitious projects in Bordeaux: imagining an entirely new winery “from an empty sheet.”
But this episode isn’t just about technical prowess or the mechanics of grape growing. Listen closely and you’ll hear Dominique’s profound reverence for terroir—a concept he elevates above all else, even above the winemaker himself. To Dominique, the role of the grape variety is not to dominate, but to “read” the land, allowing the subtle, emotional taste of the place to emerge in the bottle. When faced with climate change, he doesn’t lament, but adapts, observing how today’s warmer vintages make Cabernet Sauvignon easier to ripen and forever alter the definition of what makes a “classic” Bordeaux.
Throughout the conversation, Paul Kalemkiarian pushes Dominique with questions about politics and classification—why second growths matter, whether the age-old Bordeaux rankings will ever shift, and how a winery’s image is forged not just by legacy but by ambition. Dominique’s candor shines as he describes what distinguishes a big wine: it’s not pleasure alone, but the emotion and even awe that sometimes make time stop, elevating wine to the level of art.
Listeners are brought into the intimate rituals of blending wine, tasting berries, and understanding the unique personality of every block in the vineyard. You’ll learn why no single measure tells a winemaker when to harvest—taste, acidity, skin thickness, and memory all combine in the delicate act of coaxing the best from the land. The story is peppered with wry anecdotes about natural wines, discussions of organic practice, and the challenges of balancing tradition with evolution.
The episode invites you not just to think about wine, but to feel it: as Dominique says, great wine should take your hand and guide you on a journey, even sometimes through uncertainty, before returning you to a place of wonder. It’s not about price, brand, or even technical perfection—it’s about experiencing the taste of a vineyard’s history, climate, and character, revealed glass by glass.
Dominique Arangoits has a knack for distilling the soul of a vineyard into a bottle—so much so that, as he put it, the terroir triumphs over grape variety, winemaker, and even the farming method. As you listen to this episode, you’ll discover how Dominique Arangoits, a Basque-born wine scientist who stumbled into his lifelong passion during his studies in Bordeaux, reveals the intricate dance between climate, soil, and human ambition in the world-class wines of Cos d’Estournel. You'll hear tales of building wineries literally from scratch—lessons learned in Hungary brought home to Bordeaux, where he and his team shape a new generation of wine rooted in tradition but alive with innovation, such as gravity-fed fermentations and early blending techniques. The classification politics, from second growth to market image, get unpacked with wit and candor: hear how owners navigate legacy, ambition, and the ever-evolving challenge of ratings. Not only will you grasp what “terroir” really means, but you’ll appreciate why a block of vineyard is as complicated—and moody—as a person, and how climate change is rewriting the rules of ripeness for Cabernet Sauvignon. Whether it’s the chemistry of blending, the surprising complexity of press wine, or the emotional experience evoked by a truly special bottle, this conversation makes clear that wine is far more than what’s in the glass—it’s a voyage. Even if you think you know Bordeaux, you’ll come away with an insider’s perspective on what makes a great wine, why classification matters (and doesn’t), and how the miracle of a grape becomes a story worth tasting again and again.
What you will hear:
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The passionate journey of Dominique Arangoits from a Basque childhood vineyard to managing world-renowned estates in Hungary and Bordeaux—revealing how terroir and tradition shape his philosophy of winemaking.
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How climate change is transforming Bordeaux’s landscape, making Cabernet Sauvignon easier to ripen than ever before and influencing every decision from harvesting to blending, as explained through real-world examples and surprises.
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Behind-the-scenes wisdom on wine classification politics, blending methodology, and why every block of vineyard has its own personality—plus candid thoughts on natural wine, organic practices, and what truly differentiates a great bottle from a forgettable one.
YouTube: https://youtu.be/BAefLXz-V6M
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This is more important, you know, the terroir, the taste of the
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terroir. That is more important. And it is above
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the variety, the man,
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the way of farming. It is above a lot of things. Sit
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back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with
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Paul Kaye. Avec Monsieur Angoïs.
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Dominique, c'est
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plus simple. Dominique Angoïs.
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I think from now on we're going to speak English just because I have a
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little cold and I'm not hearing well and my French isn't that great.
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Anyway, this is actually, this is a podcast for a
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new podcast called Wine Talks, and what it's for is for
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the consumers to learn about some of these great château in the world of
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France, in Bordeaux, Burgundy, all over the, all over Europe. And so
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I'm very happy to be here today to have a chance to talk to you
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about your personal history, history of the château,
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what's happening in Bordeaux. And we're gonna cover all those things while we're here.
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But you said that you started at school in
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Bordeaux. Yes. Now, were you gonna be in the wine business
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when you were a child, you thought? No, my grandfather has
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a small piece of vineyard to make wine
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for at home. For your family? Yes, exactly. That's
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all. Then I made agronomy study
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in Bordeaux, and on the last year, I had opportunity
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to try winemaking and vineyard managing option.
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I did that and I saw
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immediately that it could be a passion for my life.
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Yeah, it does take passion. Yes, yes. So when you were a kid,
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your grandfather made money, he made wine. Was that
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from the South and where were you? Yes, I was born in the
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Basque Country, we call Pays Basque,
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near the Spanish border in the mountains. And
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so I was
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at 3 hours from Bordeaux, 2.5 hours from Bordeaux for the
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studies. Yeah. So you didn't stay in the
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south of France. You went to school in Bordeaux, which is a very famous
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university for enology. Yes, exactly. After the agronomic
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school called Bordeaux Sciences Agro, I went to
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the enology school of Bordeaux, which was famous. Very famous. To become an
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enologist. Bordeaux. And so— It was in 1992,
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'93. And that, is that when
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Dominique said, yes, I think I want to be in this business, this is very
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passionate for me? Yes. That's good. It was
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on that year, yes. And did you then go to the
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south or did you end up in Bordeaux immediately or what did you do? No,
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I, after making my study, instead of making army,
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I am from '69, so at that time we were obliged.
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We were obliged. That's amazing. We had the opportunity to
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do army in the civil, so
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in a French company who put money in
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foreign country. And I had opportunity and I was
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very lucky to have a touch with AXA insurance company.
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Yes. Who just bought a vineyard in Hungary. In '92.
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Wow. And I went there and I was
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with the team of Jean-Michel Cazes at that time and
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his technical team managed by Daniel Jozsa. It was in
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'93. So was there a lot of French influence in
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that part of— I don't know the— I only know a few wines from Hungary
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because we don't see them much in America, but was there a lot of French
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influence in the winemaking in Hungary at that time or is that— Yes, in
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the Tokaj region, some several companies arrived
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within 2, 3 years in the beginning of the '90s.
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So Tokay being white wine, but Angry Bickerer,
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I remember that wine. Not far, yes, yes. It's 1.5 hours. That's
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a region. Yeah, this is a region. Yeah, okay. So the Tokay, what were they
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growing in Tokay? What were you doing at the winery?
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Um, in Tokay, I was a winemaker and also
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managing the estate. And we
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were, I was lucky to
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follow the building of a new winery. Wow.
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So a brand new winery. From the ground up. Yes. From the beginning. Exactly, exactly.
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I was happy to follow with the team
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of AXA at that time. And it was a very good
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lesson for me for the following of my career in
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Côtes d'Estournel because in Côtes d'Estournel also Michel Odier, the
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owner, and the manager at that time,
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they gave me opportunity to imagine a
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new winery. Wow. From an empty
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sheet. Yeah. From nothing. From nothing. That's amazing. 'Cause it
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was interesting. I have a daughter who's a boulanger
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in New York. She's a chef boulanger for a
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little restaurant.
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And so, a new cuisine, a new kitchen. From scratch.
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She learned a lot being able to build that kitchen
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so it would work for her, right? That's very important. So what a great
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lesson. So when you took— when you left Tokay, you went— and that's when you
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went straight to Bordeaux? Yes, exactly. And I arrived in January
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2000, same year as Michel Rabier, the
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owner today. And I was in charge of
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vineyard managing, 2 years. And I started
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with winemaking and vineyard managing with the old 2
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Vintage. So it's— so, uh, je pense que c'était 1993. Je suis— nous sommes allés
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le tour d'Argent, donc mon père a commandé une bouteille de Casteaux Nationale 1962. D'accord,
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incroyable.
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62,
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I never tasted.
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Ah, jamais vu. D'accord, je pense que 6 $600. It was a lot of money
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for— yeah, for that time, yes, it was really good.
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So that was my— incredible. We listed
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that we went to the, in the caves.
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So, uh, this current owner's been there
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how many— how long has he owned the winery, the current owner?
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Yes, uh, uh, how many years? 20. He arrived in 2000.
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The history of Costes Estanales, because it's on 2nd growth
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in '55. Exactly.
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In the Saint-Estephes village, there is no first growth. It's like in
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Saint-Julien. Yes. And we don't know why. And so
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we are second growth. Yes, exactly. But the whole, I mean,
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almost all of the classified growths are in the Médoc, which is kind of
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interesting, basically, except for one, right? There's only one in Graves, but Most of it's
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the Médoc, the Pauillac. Margaux, Pauillac, Margaux Saint-Julien,
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Pauillac, and Saint-Estèphe. So Côte Saint-Étienne is
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a second growth, and then there's Château Montrose.
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Yes, exactly. We are two second growths in the operation.
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So I'm best interested in the
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politics of this, right? Because it's never changed. One time it's changed in
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1973. Exactly. With the little— influenced
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by the Rothschild family, right? So
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is it ever going to change? Is it a political deal? How does
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this work? Does the chamber still have a conversation
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about these things, or is it what it is? Nobody wants to change that.
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It could be too difficult to do with
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objective criteria. And you know,
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Between the second growth, you have the market and the
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image and the work of the owners and the wineries
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made a big difference. Yes. This scale of price and
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quality. It's important and I think you have to keep maintain.
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Yes. And we, well, as owner
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Michel Rebier gave us possibility and money
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to imagine the the best winery
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we can imagine for the wine, for his wine. And
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so he's very ambitious for this growth.
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He come also for the blend and
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he's with us, with the team.
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But there is never question of quantity. Yeah. We have to do the
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best, of course, for the years. So
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Napoleon III was the emperor
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at the time of the classification. So
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the nephew of the original
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Napoleon Bonaparte, right? I just read the story.
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Okay. Okay. Are you on that? It's very interesting to me because
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it was very controversial. It seemed like at the time when they did the classifications
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is what it is. And I think for the world of wine, it's a good
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thing. I think people respect the classifications. They respect the order.
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And I think the wineries themselves respect their position
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in that order. Yes, of course.
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But, you know, today
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it's not enough to be second growth. The market,
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the ratings— It's crazy. —push you to
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be, to try to be the best always. Yes. So it
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is— It is a good sign. It is a good— it is also good because
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It pushes us to always make evolutions and
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to always try to do our best. It's what's in the bottle that matters,
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right? That's what we talk about. We hope. Yes, of course.
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Well, in my business, which is
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everything in the mail, par post, du vin par
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poste, right? And it's in America, the wine business is
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kind of a little crazy. It's a little mixed up.
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The distributions, consolidation,
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retailers, internet retailing is very complicated. And
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so everybody's sort of struggling with trying to figure this out. And
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having conversations with people like you,
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winemakers from Burgundy, from Champagne, from America as well,
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it's coming down to this passion that comes into the bottle.
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That's The way you differentiate yourself is what's in the bottle.
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Yes. That's what it comes from, right? This is a key point,
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you know, and the terroir gives
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the highest potential of the wine you
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can do. You are only there to try to reveal
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this potential. Stay out of the way. It's like the
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variety. The variety, like I said, is here
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not to show himself. It's here to read the terroir and nothing more.
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We are here with the team to do the same. It's
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to read the terroir and to try to put the
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taste of the place in the bottle and nothing more. Not
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ourselves. That's not easy to do.
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And I think the wineries that
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continue to do that successfully were the wineries that will be successful because
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it's a very difficult business, as you already know. In America, it's even more
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difficult because everybody thinks they can do it. And there's—
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I have a competitor of mine who sells wine on Groupon.
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12 bottles for $60, $5 a bottle. And
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it's junk. It's a mad— right?
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It is another world, you know? It's a totally different world. But the
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consumer doesn't know that. The consumer thinks, I'm getting wine for
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$5. And the experience of wine, when you taste
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wines like these, is not about how cheap you buy it. It's about
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what's in the glass when you're drinking it. Yes. And
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a big wine coming from a big
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terroir gives you emotion. You know? Yes. It's not only
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pleasure. And sometimes with big vintage and some
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day, the time stops. And this is
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what wine or art can give. It is. You know?
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I have friends that just built wine cellars in their house. My neighbors,
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very close friends of mine, but all they want is Napa Cabernet and they don't
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understand how to differentiate and feel what
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you're trying to put in the bottle. So in the terroir, it's Saint-Estèphe. You
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showed us in this, it seems rather diverse.
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Are you water? Are you irrigating there or no irrigation? No, no irrigation. It's
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forbidden in France. So in Bordeaux, it is forbidden. Oh, it is in
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Bordeaux forbidden? Right. Okay. So we depend on
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the climate. We depend, you know? Right. So are you sensing
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climate change in Bordeaux yet, or is this pretty
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stable still? No, we feel that. And
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the way we feel that since 20 years
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is that Cabernet Sauvignon ripe
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much easier than in the past. In the past, Cabernet Sauvignon
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was ripe only in the big vintage, only 2
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years on 10. And
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today it's quasi each vintage we have
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ripe Cabernet. This is completely new and
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it could be impossible to imagine that 20 years earlier to
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say that. Really? That's interesting. So Cabernet Sauvignon was on limit
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ripening region and now with this warming,
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We see perfectly that it makes ripening
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easier. So is it earlier? Yes, earlier
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and more complete ripening. And so
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that explains that the quality of the tannin of
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Cabernet Sauvignon today is more
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easy to manage than in the past. So when you get to
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ripening, and this is something I've learned as well through these
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interviews, we're no longer relying just on
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the sugar content. We're looking at— I noticed you mentioned
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downstairs that you're using the fermentation starting of a whole berry.
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You're using the indigenous yeasts already. Yeah, at the beginning. That's right. So it's already
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happening. But a lot of winemakers are talking about the thickness
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of the skin, the pH of the skin, the acids in the skin.
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We, we, we, we make all this analysis of food. Calculations.
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Right. And we taste the berries also. And this is a mix. And
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also we,
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we have the, uh, We have meteorological stations and we know,
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we also calculate the temperature
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sum, the total temperature. And that gives also
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an idea of when, theoretically, the
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grapes is ready. So
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we need different keys. Archive keys.
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To make the good decision. And the taste. Also. You go home at night
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with grapes for dinner? No, no, no. We go through the
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vineyard and we taste it. And what is
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interesting is this is also
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the experimentation and the link we have with each
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block. You know, a block is
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like a person and we know a
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block and a terroir and a part of terroir. Has
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the bad side of his good side. Yes, right. You know, we
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are, it's like a person. And a big terroir is not
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perfect, you know. And all our life we have
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to try to understand the bad side of each
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block and to fight against
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that. This is this relation of each block and the memory
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that push us also to decide to harvest or not. Each
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block. That's interesting. So the contribution of that block
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to the ensemble, right? To the
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bottle and the mélange. So is it
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organic? No, we stop
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using herbicide. Yeah. So 4 years of no
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herbicide. We work with the soils, cultivate soils. We use
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a lot of grass. And when the soils is too rich on
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stone and we want to keep the water, We cultivate,
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we flow. And then we use
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only 4 or 5 products which are not allowed to be organic, but
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these products are gentle for the users and
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also doesn't put residues on
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the wines. Yes. This is a 2 key point for us. So,
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I mean, I'm not sure that I
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agree with all the things that are happening. For instance, There's this
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natural wine. Means nothing to us. There's no
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definition. Consumer thinks it means something. I mean,
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what's unnatural about any wine, right? You
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know, if you put grapes or
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juice in a bottle, in a barrel, and you go
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for holiday, you will not make wine with that. You would
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make vinegar. Except if you are
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lucky or— So then the
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natural yeast, the indigenous yeast is not enough, it gets locked up.
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It is a choice. You know, we use indigenous at the beginning,
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but then we use selected yeast
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when we follow.
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It is a choice. Maybe within 5 years we will do differently.
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You know, it is a job, winemaking,
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it's never white or black. Yeah, right. You have to be
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very, very flexible. Yes, yes, yes. But that would be very good
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second-growth vinegar, right?
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So it's possible. I am not sure the price could be the same.
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Actually, there used to be a gentleman in the old days, I'm
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talking about the '80s, and he would go around and collect
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the half bottles at a tasting and he would make first-growth or second-growth
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vinegar out of it. It's pretty good, right? It's possible. Technically,
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it's possible. Yeah, so I'm I'm fascinated by that subject
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and I've tried to understand it better myself.
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I have consumers that are asking me these questions and we all know
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the sulfite question.
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You know, they consider natural wine to be less than
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78 parts per million, but this is probably less than that.
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No? I don't know. Probably around that, something like that. You don't add much. It's
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already part of the process.
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They want dry farmed. I'm not sure why that's
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unnatural to have water, but they want dry farmed, which it is. Why is that
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unnatural? I don't think it's a problem. Sugar.
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There's no sugar here, right? It's dry. So
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I think in the consumer's mind, there's, they
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misunderstand what all this happens, what happens in the winery and how
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important it is. But I do believe They're sort of looking at
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the least amount of intervention
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being touched by somebody, right? But somebody does something to it, right?
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Yeah. There's a book in America
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called "La Troisième Assiette." It's a
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book on biodynamic farming
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in the food business, wheat, corn, all the rest. It's written by a
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chef in New York. He tells this amazing story about Alain Ducasse
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who came to visit his restaurant, which my
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daughter went to Alain Ducasse's pastry school
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in Yssingeaux. So he talks about
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how Alain Ducasse tasted the butter and knew
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that it was not made by hand. And Alain Ducasse
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tasted the fact that the cows were not grazing in a fertile part
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of the farm. And it was true. And so I think
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with grapes, it's the same thing. That eventually
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you need to taste where it's
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from. Yeah, exactly. Right? Exactly. You need to determine
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that. It's not just the emotional part of wine. Exactly. And this is more
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important, you know? And the
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terroir, the taste of the terroir, that is more important.
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And It is above the
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variety, the man, the way of farming. It
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is above a lot of things. Yes. The terroir.
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I have this new conversation
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and I already mentioned part of it where
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when you're having a glass of wine with friends, family, a meal, whatever you're doing,
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it should be an emotional experience. You may not understand the emotion
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or the flavors you're tasting. That's not important. What's important is that
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it makes you feel something. Exactly. Exactly.
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Big wine take you, take your hand and then you go, you
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travel with it. That's right. And sometimes
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you can be afraid and this is interesting. Yes. And
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you are meaning, but you are wondering where I
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am going and then the wine come back to the
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right road. Yeah, you're right. And you know, and this is interesting
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in wine. It's a little voyage entre soi, perhaps.
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I'll tell you a story. Somebody sent me a bottle of
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Beaujolais. I think it was
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Beaujolais, like nothing in particular district.
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And it was undrinkable. 2016,
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terrible. And it was being sold under
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a brand name, a very famous TV show in America.
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That was the brand. And I felt sorry for the consumer
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because he That person buys this thinking, oh, it's from
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this TV show, it must be good. And he pours it for his
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friends. There's nothing to talk about
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except how bad this is, right? You want to be able
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to emote. It should be out of the
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way, right? It should not be part of the forefront of your mind. You should
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be tasting it, enjoying it, discussing life
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with it.. And it shouldn't be telling you
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other than that. You should be experiencing the wine. And that's the way I think
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about it now. And it's changed my outlook. This is
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relatively new, even though 30 years in the business, the concept is
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new for me. Because I think it's a very important concept for the
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consumer to understand what your job is and what
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co-sustainable means is that reflection of where it's
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from. And that's the emotional part of it. That's my new
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mission to do this. Okay. Thank you for us and
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for us. So tell me about these vintages. This is an
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extraordinarily interesting thing for me to taste this vertical.
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All the wines are different. And where do you want to start? You want to
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start? Well, we started with the '08. '08 was the first vintage
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we made in the new winery. So using the
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gravity. Yeah, that was fascinating. Your new
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methodologies. It's very simple, but so important for the wines.
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Yes. You sort of automated what would've been a more difficult
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thing, but it's still very natural, gravity-fed.
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Exactly, exactly. This was in the same philosophy
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of Michel Rabier, the owner, is to put in the bottle
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the taste of the terroir. And he don't want the
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wine to be disturbed by something.
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By something. So, so we, we, with this
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facility, we are gentle, and this is very important, even
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in not so ripe vintage.
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And we are sure to never
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over-extract. So you put a grape— this
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diagram— you, you put the grapes in the hopper, you put them in the thing,
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and there's very little pressure. There's no pressure. Exactly.
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00:24:55,370 --> 00:24:58,850
It's free-run juice in the back. Yes. Which I think you call Goutte. Van de
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Goutte. Van de Goutte. So—
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We put the grapes without pumping. This is the first step.
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And because of that, the seed is always, always rounded by
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the skins.
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And at the end, we are sure to never
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over-extract the tannin of the seeds, which can be— And so you
390
00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:24,330
are— And then we do délestage. We
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empty the— the tank twice a week, twice a day during
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the fermentation, during 5 days. And then we put
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back the juice on the skins. And this is to allow
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the extractions of the color. Fascinating.
395
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And we do that with these moving tanks without pumping
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also. So the first juice is clear or is it a little bit red
397
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or what is it? It depends on the vintage. In
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very ripe vintage, and with
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very rich grapes,
400
00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:02,380
it's immediately black. Really? It's incredible. It was the case
401
00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:05,620
in '05. It was the case more recently
402
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,580
in '16 and '18. Fascinating. And the
403
00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:13,940
'08, less color? Yes, needed more
404
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,900
time. More time. But it is a surprise to see how the
405
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,660
wine is alive today. 10 years after.
406
00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:25,480
So after the Vente de Gouttes, you Now you make some press
407
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,240
juice. Yes. And the press wine is very important in Bordeaux because
408
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,920
we use this press wine,
409
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,520
uh, to, to, to, to make the, the
410
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,359
blend and to adjust the, the last touch of the
411
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,640
blend. The, the big Bordeaux wines, the big growths need, uh, press
412
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440
wine to make, to be more complete and complex.
413
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,140
So if I was to take, just for fun, The
414
00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:56,220
free-run has started to ferment a little, no? Because of the yeast on
415
00:26:56,220 --> 00:27:00,020
the skin. Yes, yes. This is the step where it's—
416
00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:03,660
Like a whole berry. Before fermentation. Yeah. And then before working of
417
00:27:03,660 --> 00:27:07,420
the wine. Yes. So if I put a glass under the Vin
418
00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:10,580
de Gouttes and a glass under
419
00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:14,110
the Pression. Yes. How would I, what would they
420
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:17,000
look like? The Pressed wine,
421
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,880
has usually more tannin
422
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,360
and it is not the
423
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,600
same quality of tannin. It gives spice and the pressed wine
424
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,640
also makes the marriage between the different wines on the
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00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,080
blend more easy.
426
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,760
It gives du
427
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,430
lion. Softness, roundness. And roundness and that
428
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:49,110
make the wines married. Yeah, I see. Right. And that help
429
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:53,280
to make a link between the wines of the blend. Well, okay.
430
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,910
And this is a crucial point of an aspect of
431
00:27:56,910 --> 00:28:00,629
the press wine. So they— you blend all of that together or do
432
00:28:00,629 --> 00:28:03,950
you blend them based on the percentage? In other words, you've got all this wonderful
433
00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:07,350
press juice and all— No, we have several
434
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:11,350
blending sessions with the team and the owner, Michel Rabier,
435
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,480
and We try and we do our best. We don't care on
436
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,600
the variety, never. We look after what
437
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,800
is the variety inside, but we build
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00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,840
the cost we imagine as the best in each vintage,
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00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,680
for each vintage. Fascinating. And we do that before
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00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,360
putting the wine in barrel. We want to blend
441
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,650
early to make the marriage as early as
442
00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:44,410
possible because our terroir has a lot of different soils
443
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:49,570
and we think that it's important to marry the different
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00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:53,290
wines coming from the soils early to have— Let them
445
00:28:53,290 --> 00:28:57,090
meld together. Better, exactly. That's an interesting point because I
446
00:28:57,090 --> 00:29:00,770
did an experiment yesterday with my own staff
447
00:29:00,770 --> 00:29:03,850
and I took, actually it was some
448
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:08,040
Marzambé, and I had some California Cabernet of the same
449
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,520
vintage. And I had them taste them separately. And I said, now I want you
450
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,161
to put them together just 50/50 just to see. And they're obviously
451
00:29:16,161 --> 00:29:19,960
different wines. And I said, do you not
452
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,720
sense that they're not together? That you distinctly taste
453
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,560
this Cabernet and you distinctly taste this Bordeaux. They're from different parts of the world,
454
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,000
different soil, different everything. And they do not blend
455
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:35,350
well. I was trying to teach them this idea. Yes. You can imagine
456
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:38,390
if it will work or not,
457
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:44,150
but you need to try because you can have surprise. Fantastic. Yes, yes.
458
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:47,870
We're only humans, right? Exactly. And Émile Peynaud, the Pope
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00:29:47,870 --> 00:29:51,710
of oenology in Bordeaux in the past, said that when you do a good blend
460
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:55,510
in Bordeaux, the blend is better
461
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:59,150
than the best tank. That's right. 2 2
462
00:29:59,350 --> 00:30:02,470
5. Exactly. Right? Exactly. And you have
463
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:06,970
a blending effect. A plus or 1 plus 1 equals 3
464
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:10,530
and you have a blending effect, which is magic. It's
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00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:15,450
too bad that our friends in Burgundy can't do that,
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00:30:15,450 --> 00:30:19,049
huh? Yes, but it's— no, no, no, but it's
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00:30:19,049 --> 00:30:22,770
that makes their job more difficult. You know, sometimes
468
00:30:22,770 --> 00:30:26,530
they have one block, one
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00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:30,290
variety, one terroir. And you have to be right on the date of
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00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,520
harvest and everything. In Bordeaux, you have different blocks, different
471
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,961
soils, different variety, and you can play. You can. You can
472
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040
play more easily. Right. And in Burgundy, I suppose
473
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,280
it's very interesting, but not easy. Not easy.
474
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,160
To manage. Any biodynamic farming
475
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,600
in the Médoc? You
476
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,320
have some, a few vineyards
477
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000
which are 100%. Yeah. She's— Everybody
478
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,880
like us
479
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,170
make experimentation. Yeah.
480
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,400
Everybody, voilà, compared. And then,
481
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000
voilà, each winery start to have his own
482
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,200
road and philosophy. I noticed between the '04 and
483
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960
the '05, there was a big difference in its—
484
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,730
the aged component of the character. The 0.4 seemed to have been more
485
00:31:26,730 --> 00:31:30,090
advanced in its age for the one year than the, like,
486
00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:34,490
between these two. Yes. Uh, 0.5.
487
00:31:35,610 --> 00:31:39,450
Acid content, ripeness. Yes. Um, 0.5,
488
00:31:39,450 --> 00:31:41,050
in 0.5 we had incredible
489
00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:46,650
conditions. We had dry conditions since the beginning,
490
00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:49,450
but never too hot. And so
491
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,560
dry conditions make very positive
492
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,360
and interesting hydraulic stress for the vineyard. Just enough for the
493
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600
vineyard to stop growing end of July and to
494
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,600
ripen the tannins. And the not too hot conditions
495
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,240
keep the fruit. And this combination in Bordeaux can be magic.
496
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,000
Can be magic. It was great. They're all great. Well, it's been
497
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,826
fascinating. I was really intrigued also by the '16. I
498
00:32:17,826 --> 00:32:20,890
mean, just when I put my nose— Still a baby. Yeah, and it jumped out
499
00:32:21,370 --> 00:32:25,050
of the glass. But this was a great vertical
500
00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:28,970
for us. Yeah, it could be very interesting to
501
00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:32,811
taste the '16 within 10 years after. The '50
502
00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:37,410
and the '40. You know, and with the wine, this is
503
00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:41,010
also an interesting side. You sometimes, you want
504
00:32:41,010 --> 00:32:42,490
to be older because you
505
00:32:46,490 --> 00:32:47,611
want— Yeah, right. And what—
506
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:51,020
Well, absolutely. Well, I'm incroyable pour cette discussion. J'ai apprécié. C'est un plaisir de parler
507
00:32:51,020 --> 00:32:54,070
avec vous. Je pense que je vais acheter 2-3 cases pour mon
508
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:08,020
ami Thomas Cotillet. OK, merci beaucoup.
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,920
This is more important, you know, the terroir, the taste of the
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terroir. That is more important. And it is above
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the variety, the man,
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the way of farming. It is above a lot of things. Sit
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back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with
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Paul Kaye. Avec Monsieur Angoïs.
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Dominique, c'est
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plus simple. Dominique Angoïs.
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I think from now on we're going to speak English just because I have a
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little cold and I'm not hearing well and my French isn't that great.
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Anyway, this is actually, this is a podcast for a
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new podcast called Wine Talks, and what it's for is for
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the consumers to learn about some of these great château in the world of
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France, in Bordeaux, Burgundy, all over the, all over Europe. And so
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I'm very happy to be here today to have a chance to talk to you
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about your personal history, history of the château,
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what's happening in Bordeaux. And we're gonna cover all those things while we're here.
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But you said that you started at school in
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Bordeaux. Yes. Now, were you gonna be in the wine business
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when you were a child, you thought? No, my grandfather has
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a small piece of vineyard to make wine
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for at home. For your family? Yes, exactly. That's
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all. Then I made agronomy study
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in Bordeaux, and on the last year, I had opportunity
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to try winemaking and vineyard managing option.
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I did that and I saw
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immediately that it could be a passion for my life.
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Yeah, it does take passion. Yes, yes. So when you were a kid,
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your grandfather made money, he made wine. Was that
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from the South and where were you? Yes, I was born in the
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Basque Country, we call Pays Basque,
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near the Spanish border in the mountains. And
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so I was
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at 3 hours from Bordeaux, 2.5 hours from Bordeaux for the
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studies. Yeah. So you didn't stay in the
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south of France. You went to school in Bordeaux, which is a very famous
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university for enology. Yes, exactly. After the agronomic
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school called Bordeaux Sciences Agro, I went to
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the enology school of Bordeaux, which was famous. Very famous. To become an
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enologist. Bordeaux. And so— It was in 1992,
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'93. And that, is that when
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Dominique said, yes, I think I want to be in this business, this is very
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passionate for me? Yes. That's good. It was
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on that year, yes. And did you then go to the
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south or did you end up in Bordeaux immediately or what did you do? No,
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I, after making my study, instead of making army,
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I am from '69, so at that time we were obliged.
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We were obliged. That's amazing. We had the opportunity to
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do army in the civil, so
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in a French company who put money in
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foreign country. And I had opportunity and I was
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very lucky to have a touch with AXA insurance company.
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Yes. Who just bought a vineyard in Hungary. In '92.
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Wow. And I went there and I was
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with the team of Jean-Michel Cazes at that time and
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his technical team managed by Daniel Jozsa. It was in
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'93. So was there a lot of French influence in
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that part of— I don't know the— I only know a few wines from Hungary
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because we don't see them much in America, but was there a lot of French
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influence in the winemaking in Hungary at that time or is that— Yes, in
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the Tokaj region, some several companies arrived
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within 2, 3 years in the beginning of the '90s.
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So Tokay being white wine, but Angry Bickerer,
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I remember that wine. Not far, yes, yes. It's 1.5 hours. That's
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a region. Yeah, this is a region. Yeah, okay. So the Tokay, what were they
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growing in Tokay? What were you doing at the winery?
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Um, in Tokay, I was a winemaker and also
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managing the estate. And we
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were, I was lucky to
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follow the building of a new winery. Wow.
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So a brand new winery. From the ground up. Yes. From the beginning. Exactly, exactly.
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I was happy to follow with the team
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of AXA at that time. And it was a very good
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lesson for me for the following of my career in
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Côtes d'Estournel because in Côtes d'Estournel also Michel Odier, the
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owner, and the manager at that time,
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they gave me opportunity to imagine a
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new winery. Wow. From an empty
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sheet. Yeah. From nothing. From nothing. That's amazing. 'Cause it
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was interesting. I have a daughter who's a boulanger
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in New York. She's a chef boulanger for a
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little restaurant.
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And so, a new cuisine, a new kitchen. From scratch.
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She learned a lot being able to build that kitchen
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so it would work for her, right? That's very important. So what a great
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lesson. So when you took— when you left Tokay, you went— and that's when you
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went straight to Bordeaux? Yes, exactly. And I arrived in January
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2000, same year as Michel Rabier, the
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owner today. And I was in charge of
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vineyard managing, 2 years. And I started
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with winemaking and vineyard managing with the old 2
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Vintage. So it's— so, uh, je pense que c'était 1993. Je suis— nous sommes allés
93
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le tour d'Argent, donc mon père a commandé une bouteille de Casteaux Nationale 1962. D'accord,
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incroyable.
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62,
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I never tasted.
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Ah, jamais vu. D'accord, je pense que 6 $600. It was a lot of money
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for— yeah, for that time, yes, it was really good.
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So that was my— incredible. We listed
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that we went to the, in the caves.
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So, uh, this current owner's been there
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how many— how long has he owned the winery, the current owner?
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Yes, uh, uh, how many years? 20. He arrived in 2000.
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The history of Costes Estanales, because it's on 2nd growth
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in '55. Exactly.
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In the Saint-Estephes village, there is no first growth. It's like in
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Saint-Julien. Yes. And we don't know why. And so
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we are second growth. Yes, exactly. But the whole, I mean,
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almost all of the classified growths are in the Médoc, which is kind of
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interesting, basically, except for one, right? There's only one in Graves, but Most of it's
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the Médoc, the Pauillac. Margaux, Pauillac, Margaux Saint-Julien,
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Pauillac, and Saint-Estèphe. So Côte Saint-Étienne is
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a second growth, and then there's Château Montrose.
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Yes, exactly. We are two second growths in the operation.
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So I'm best interested in the
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politics of this, right? Because it's never changed. One time it's changed in
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1973. Exactly. With the little— influenced
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by the Rothschild family, right? So
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is it ever going to change? Is it a political deal? How does
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this work? Does the chamber still have a conversation
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about these things, or is it what it is? Nobody wants to change that.
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It could be too difficult to do with
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objective criteria. And you know,
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Between the second growth, you have the market and the
125
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image and the work of the owners and the wineries
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made a big difference. Yes. This scale of price and
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quality. It's important and I think you have to keep maintain.
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Yes. And we, well, as owner
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Michel Rebier gave us possibility and money
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to imagine the the best winery
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we can imagine for the wine, for his wine. And
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so he's very ambitious for this growth.
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He come also for the blend and
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he's with us, with the team.
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But there is never question of quantity. Yeah. We have to do the
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best, of course, for the years. So
137
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Napoleon III was the emperor
138
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at the time of the classification. So
139
00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:24,940
the nephew of the original
140
00:09:24,940 --> 00:09:28,620
Napoleon Bonaparte, right? I just read the story.
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Okay. Okay. Are you on that? It's very interesting to me because
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it was very controversial. It seemed like at the time when they did the classifications
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is what it is. And I think for the world of wine, it's a good
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thing. I think people respect the classifications. They respect the order.
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And I think the wineries themselves respect their position
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in that order. Yes, of course.
147
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But, you know, today
148
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it's not enough to be second growth. The market,
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the ratings— It's crazy. —push you to
150
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be, to try to be the best always. Yes. So it
151
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is— It is a good sign. It is a good— it is also good because
152
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It pushes us to always make evolutions and
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to always try to do our best. It's what's in the bottle that matters,
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right? That's what we talk about. We hope. Yes, of course.
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Well, in my business, which is
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everything in the mail, par post, du vin par
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poste, right? And it's in America, the wine business is
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kind of a little crazy. It's a little mixed up.
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The distributions, consolidation,
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retailers, internet retailing is very complicated. And
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so everybody's sort of struggling with trying to figure this out. And
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having conversations with people like you,
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winemakers from Burgundy, from Champagne, from America as well,
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it's coming down to this passion that comes into the bottle.
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That's The way you differentiate yourself is what's in the bottle.
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Yes. That's what it comes from, right? This is a key point,
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you know, and the terroir gives
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the highest potential of the wine you
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can do. You are only there to try to reveal
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this potential. Stay out of the way. It's like the
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variety. The variety, like I said, is here
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not to show himself. It's here to read the terroir and nothing more.
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We are here with the team to do the same. It's
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to read the terroir and to try to put the
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taste of the place in the bottle and nothing more. Not
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ourselves. That's not easy to do.
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And I think the wineries that
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continue to do that successfully were the wineries that will be successful because
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it's a very difficult business, as you already know. In America, it's even more
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difficult because everybody thinks they can do it. And there's—
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I have a competitor of mine who sells wine on Groupon.
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12 bottles for $60, $5 a bottle. And
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it's junk. It's a mad— right?
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It is another world, you know? It's a totally different world. But the
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consumer doesn't know that. The consumer thinks, I'm getting wine for
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$5. And the experience of wine, when you taste
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wines like these, is not about how cheap you buy it. It's about
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what's in the glass when you're drinking it. Yes. And
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a big wine coming from a big
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terroir gives you emotion. You know? Yes. It's not only
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pleasure. And sometimes with big vintage and some
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day, the time stops. And this is
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what wine or art can give. It is. You know?
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I have friends that just built wine cellars in their house. My neighbors,
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very close friends of mine, but all they want is Napa Cabernet and they don't
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understand how to differentiate and feel what
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you're trying to put in the bottle. So in the terroir, it's Saint-Estèphe. You
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showed us in this, it seems rather diverse.
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Are you water? Are you irrigating there or no irrigation? No, no irrigation. It's
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forbidden in France. So in Bordeaux, it is forbidden. Oh, it is in
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Bordeaux forbidden? Right. Okay. So we depend on
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the climate. We depend, you know? Right. So are you sensing
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climate change in Bordeaux yet, or is this pretty
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stable still? No, we feel that. And
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the way we feel that since 20 years
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is that Cabernet Sauvignon ripe
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much easier than in the past. In the past, Cabernet Sauvignon
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was ripe only in the big vintage, only 2
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years on 10. And
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today it's quasi each vintage we have
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ripe Cabernet. This is completely new and
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it could be impossible to imagine that 20 years earlier to
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say that. Really? That's interesting. So Cabernet Sauvignon was on limit
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ripening region and now with this warming,
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We see perfectly that it makes ripening
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easier. So is it earlier? Yes, earlier
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and more complete ripening. And so
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that explains that the quality of the tannin of
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Cabernet Sauvignon today is more
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easy to manage than in the past. So when you get to
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ripening, and this is something I've learned as well through these
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interviews, we're no longer relying just on
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the sugar content. We're looking at— I noticed you mentioned
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downstairs that you're using the fermentation starting of a whole berry.
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You're using the indigenous yeasts already. Yeah, at the beginning. That's right. So it's already
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happening. But a lot of winemakers are talking about the thickness
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of the skin, the pH of the skin, the acids in the skin.
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We, we, we, we make all this analysis of food. Calculations.
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Right. And we taste the berries also. And this is a mix. And
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also we,
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we have the, uh, We have meteorological stations and we know,
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we also calculate the temperature
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sum, the total temperature. And that gives also
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an idea of when, theoretically, the
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grapes is ready. So
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we need different keys. Archive keys.
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To make the good decision. And the taste. Also. You go home at night
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with grapes for dinner? No, no, no. We go through the
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vineyard and we taste it. And what is
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interesting is this is also
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the experimentation and the link we have with each
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block. You know, a block is
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like a person and we know a
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block and a terroir and a part of terroir. Has
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the bad side of his good side. Yes, right. You know, we
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are, it's like a person. And a big terroir is not
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perfect, you know. And all our life we have
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to try to understand the bad side of each
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block and to fight against
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that. This is this relation of each block and the memory
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that push us also to decide to harvest or not. Each
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block. That's interesting. So the contribution of that block
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to the ensemble, right? To the
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bottle and the mélange. So is it
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organic? No, we stop
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using herbicide. Yeah. So 4 years of no
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herbicide. We work with the soils, cultivate soils. We use
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a lot of grass. And when the soils is too rich on
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stone and we want to keep the water, We cultivate,
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we flow. And then we use
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only 4 or 5 products which are not allowed to be organic, but
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these products are gentle for the users and
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also doesn't put residues on
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the wines. Yes. This is a 2 key point for us. So,
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I mean, I'm not sure that I
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agree with all the things that are happening. For instance, There's this
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natural wine. Means nothing to us. There's no
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definition. Consumer thinks it means something. I mean,
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what's unnatural about any wine, right? You
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know, if you put grapes or
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juice in a bottle, in a barrel, and you go
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for holiday, you will not make wine with that. You would
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make vinegar. Except if you are
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lucky or— So then the
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natural yeast, the indigenous yeast is not enough, it gets locked up.
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It is a choice. You know, we use indigenous at the beginning,
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but then we use selected yeast
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when we follow.
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It is a choice. Maybe within 5 years we will do differently.
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You know, it is a job, winemaking,
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it's never white or black. Yeah, right. You have to be
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very, very flexible. Yes, yes, yes. But that would be very good
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second-growth vinegar, right?
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So it's possible. I am not sure the price could be the same.
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Actually, there used to be a gentleman in the old days, I'm
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talking about the '80s, and he would go around and collect
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the half bottles at a tasting and he would make first-growth or second-growth
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vinegar out of it. It's pretty good, right? It's possible. Technically,
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it's possible. Yeah, so I'm I'm fascinated by that subject
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and I've tried to understand it better myself.
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I have consumers that are asking me these questions and we all know
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the sulfite question.
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You know, they consider natural wine to be less than
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78 parts per million, but this is probably less than that.
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No? I don't know. Probably around that, something like that. You don't add much. It's
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already part of the process.
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They want dry farmed. I'm not sure why that's
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unnatural to have water, but they want dry farmed, which it is. Why is that
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unnatural? I don't think it's a problem. Sugar.
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There's no sugar here, right? It's dry. So
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I think in the consumer's mind, there's, they
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misunderstand what all this happens, what happens in the winery and how
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important it is. But I do believe They're sort of looking at
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the least amount of intervention
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being touched by somebody, right? But somebody does something to it, right?
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Yeah. There's a book in America
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called "La Troisième Assiette." It's a
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book on biodynamic farming
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in the food business, wheat, corn, all the rest. It's written by a
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chef in New York. He tells this amazing story about Alain Ducasse
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who came to visit his restaurant, which my
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daughter went to Alain Ducasse's pastry school
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in Yssingeaux. So he talks about
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how Alain Ducasse tasted the butter and knew
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that it was not made by hand. And Alain Ducasse
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tasted the fact that the cows were not grazing in a fertile part
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of the farm. And it was true. And so I think
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with grapes, it's the same thing. That eventually
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you need to taste where it's
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from. Yeah, exactly. Right? Exactly. You need to determine
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that. It's not just the emotional part of wine. Exactly. And this is more
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important, you know? And the
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terroir, the taste of the terroir, that is more important.
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And It is above the
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variety, the man, the way of farming. It
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is above a lot of things. Yes. The terroir.
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I have this new conversation
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and I already mentioned part of it where
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when you're having a glass of wine with friends, family, a meal, whatever you're doing,
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it should be an emotional experience. You may not understand the emotion
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or the flavors you're tasting. That's not important. What's important is that
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it makes you feel something. Exactly. Exactly.
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Big wine take you, take your hand and then you go, you
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travel with it. That's right. And sometimes
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you can be afraid and this is interesting. Yes. And
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you are meaning, but you are wondering where I
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am going and then the wine come back to the
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right road. Yeah, you're right. And you know, and this is interesting
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in wine. It's a little voyage entre soi, perhaps.
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I'll tell you a story. Somebody sent me a bottle of
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Beaujolais. I think it was
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Beaujolais, like nothing in particular district.
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And it was undrinkable. 2016,
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terrible. And it was being sold under
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a brand name, a very famous TV show in America.
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That was the brand. And I felt sorry for the consumer
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because he That person buys this thinking, oh, it's from
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this TV show, it must be good. And he pours it for his
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friends. There's nothing to talk about
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except how bad this is, right? You want to be able
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to emote. It should be out of the
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way, right? It should not be part of the forefront of your mind. You should
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be tasting it, enjoying it, discussing life
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with it.. And it shouldn't be telling you
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other than that. You should be experiencing the wine. And that's the way I think
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about it now. And it's changed my outlook. This is
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relatively new, even though 30 years in the business, the concept is
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new for me. Because I think it's a very important concept for the
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consumer to understand what your job is and what
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co-sustainable means is that reflection of where it's
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from. And that's the emotional part of it. That's my new
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mission to do this. Okay. Thank you for us and
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for us. So tell me about these vintages. This is an
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extraordinarily interesting thing for me to taste this vertical.
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All the wines are different. And where do you want to start? You want to
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start? Well, we started with the '08. '08 was the first vintage
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we made in the new winery. So using the
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gravity. Yeah, that was fascinating. Your new
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methodologies. It's very simple, but so important for the wines.
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Yes. You sort of automated what would've been a more difficult
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thing, but it's still very natural, gravity-fed.
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Exactly, exactly. This was in the same philosophy
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of Michel Rabier, the owner, is to put in the bottle
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the taste of the terroir. And he don't want the
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wine to be disturbed by something.
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By something. So, so we, we, with this
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facility, we are gentle, and this is very important, even
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in not so ripe vintage.
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And we are sure to never
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over-extract. So you put a grape— this
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diagram— you, you put the grapes in the hopper, you put them in the thing,
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and there's very little pressure. There's no pressure. Exactly.
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It's free-run juice in the back. Yes. Which I think you call Goutte. Van de
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Goutte. Van de Goutte. So—
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We put the grapes without pumping. This is the first step.
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And because of that, the seed is always, always rounded by
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the skins.
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And at the end, we are sure to never
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over-extract the tannin of the seeds, which can be— And so you
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are— And then we do délestage. We
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empty the— the tank twice a week, twice a day during
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the fermentation, during 5 days. And then we put
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00:25:33,010 --> 00:25:36,810
back the juice on the skins. And this is to allow
394
00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:40,610
the extractions of the color. Fascinating.
395
00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:43,890
And we do that with these moving tanks without pumping
396
00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:48,090
also. So the first juice is clear or is it a little bit red
397
00:25:48,090 --> 00:25:51,050
or what is it? It depends on the vintage. In
398
00:25:51,530 --> 00:25:55,020
very ripe vintage, and with
399
00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:58,660
very rich grapes,
400
00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:02,380
it's immediately black. Really? It's incredible. It was the case
401
00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:05,620
in '05. It was the case more recently
402
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,580
in '16 and '18. Fascinating. And the
403
00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:13,940
'08, less color? Yes, needed more
404
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,900
time. More time. But it is a surprise to see how the
405
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,660
wine is alive today. 10 years after.
406
00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:25,480
So after the Vente de Gouttes, you Now you make some press
407
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,240
juice. Yes. And the press wine is very important in Bordeaux because
408
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,920
we use this press wine,
409
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,520
uh, to, to, to, to make the, the
410
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,359
blend and to adjust the, the last touch of the
411
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,640
blend. The, the big Bordeaux wines, the big growths need, uh, press
412
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440
wine to make, to be more complete and complex.
413
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,140
So if I was to take, just for fun, The
414
00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:56,220
free-run has started to ferment a little, no? Because of the yeast on
415
00:26:56,220 --> 00:27:00,020
the skin. Yes, yes. This is the step where it's—
416
00:27:00,020 --> 00:27:03,660
Like a whole berry. Before fermentation. Yeah. And then before working of
417
00:27:03,660 --> 00:27:07,420
the wine. Yes. So if I put a glass under the Vin
418
00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:10,580
de Gouttes and a glass under
419
00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:14,110
the Pression. Yes. How would I, what would they
420
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:17,000
look like? The Pressed wine,
421
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,880
has usually more tannin
422
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,360
and it is not the
423
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,600
same quality of tannin. It gives spice and the pressed wine
424
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,640
also makes the marriage between the different wines on the
425
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,080
blend more easy.
426
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,760
It gives du
427
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,430
lion. Softness, roundness. And roundness and that
428
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:49,110
make the wines married. Yeah, I see. Right. And that help
429
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:53,280
to make a link between the wines of the blend. Well, okay.
430
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,910
And this is a crucial point of an aspect of
431
00:27:56,910 --> 00:28:00,629
the press wine. So they— you blend all of that together or do
432
00:28:00,629 --> 00:28:03,950
you blend them based on the percentage? In other words, you've got all this wonderful
433
00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:07,350
press juice and all— No, we have several
434
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:11,350
blending sessions with the team and the owner, Michel Rabier,
435
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,480
and We try and we do our best. We don't care on
436
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,600
the variety, never. We look after what
437
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,800
is the variety inside, but we build
438
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,840
the cost we imagine as the best in each vintage,
439
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,680
for each vintage. Fascinating. And we do that before
440
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,360
putting the wine in barrel. We want to blend
441
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,650
early to make the marriage as early as
442
00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:44,410
possible because our terroir has a lot of different soils
443
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:49,570
and we think that it's important to marry the different
444
00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:53,290
wines coming from the soils early to have— Let them
445
00:28:53,290 --> 00:28:57,090
meld together. Better, exactly. That's an interesting point because I
446
00:28:57,090 --> 00:29:00,770
did an experiment yesterday with my own staff
447
00:29:00,770 --> 00:29:03,850
and I took, actually it was some
448
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:08,040
Marzambé, and I had some California Cabernet of the same
449
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,520
vintage. And I had them taste them separately. And I said, now I want you
450
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,161
to put them together just 50/50 just to see. And they're obviously
451
00:29:16,161 --> 00:29:19,960
different wines. And I said, do you not
452
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,720
sense that they're not together? That you distinctly taste
453
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,560
this Cabernet and you distinctly taste this Bordeaux. They're from different parts of the world,
454
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,000
different soil, different everything. And they do not blend
455
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:35,350
well. I was trying to teach them this idea. Yes. You can imagine
456
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:38,390
if it will work or not,
457
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:44,150
but you need to try because you can have surprise. Fantastic. Yes, yes.
458
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:47,870
We're only humans, right? Exactly. And Émile Peynaud, the Pope
459
00:29:47,870 --> 00:29:51,710
of oenology in Bordeaux in the past, said that when you do a good blend
460
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:55,510
in Bordeaux, the blend is better
461
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:59,150
than the best tank. That's right. 2 2
462
00:29:59,350 --> 00:30:02,470
5. Exactly. Right? Exactly. And you have
463
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:06,970
a blending effect. A plus or 1 plus 1 equals 3
464
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:10,530
and you have a blending effect, which is magic. It's
465
00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:15,450
too bad that our friends in Burgundy can't do that,
466
00:30:15,450 --> 00:30:19,049
huh? Yes, but it's— no, no, no, but it's
467
00:30:19,049 --> 00:30:22,770
that makes their job more difficult. You know, sometimes
468
00:30:22,770 --> 00:30:26,530
they have one block, one
469
00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:30,290
variety, one terroir. And you have to be right on the date of
470
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,520
harvest and everything. In Bordeaux, you have different blocks, different
471
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,961
soils, different variety, and you can play. You can. You can
472
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040
play more easily. Right. And in Burgundy, I suppose
473
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,280
it's very interesting, but not easy. Not easy.
474
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,160
To manage. Any biodynamic farming
475
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,600
in the Médoc? You
476
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,320
have some, a few vineyards
477
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000
which are 100%. Yeah. She's— Everybody
478
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,880
like us
479
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,170
make experimentation. Yeah.
480
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,400
Everybody, voilà, compared. And then,
481
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000
voilà, each winery start to have his own
482
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,200
road and philosophy. I noticed between the '04 and
483
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960
the '05, there was a big difference in its—
484
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,730
the aged component of the character. The 0.4 seemed to have been more
485
00:31:26,730 --> 00:31:30,090
advanced in its age for the one year than the, like,
486
00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:34,490
between these two. Yes. Uh, 0.5.
487
00:31:35,610 --> 00:31:39,450
Acid content, ripeness. Yes. Um, 0.5,
488
00:31:39,450 --> 00:31:41,050
in 0.5 we had incredible
489
00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:46,650
conditions. We had dry conditions since the beginning,
490
00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:49,450
but never too hot. And so
491
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,560
dry conditions make very positive
492
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,360
and interesting hydraulic stress for the vineyard. Just enough for the
493
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600
vineyard to stop growing end of July and to
494
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,600
ripen the tannins. And the not too hot conditions
495
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,240
keep the fruit. And this combination in Bordeaux can be magic.
496
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,000
Can be magic. It was great. They're all great. Well, it's been
497
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,826
fascinating. I was really intrigued also by the '16. I
498
00:32:17,826 --> 00:32:20,890
mean, just when I put my nose— Still a baby. Yeah, and it jumped out
499
00:32:21,370 --> 00:32:25,050
of the glass. But this was a great vertical
500
00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:28,970
for us. Yeah, it could be very interesting to
501
00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:32,811
taste the '16 within 10 years after. The '50
502
00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:37,410
and the '40. You know, and with the wine, this is
503
00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:41,010
also an interesting side. You sometimes, you want
504
00:32:41,010 --> 00:32:42,490
to be older because you
505
00:32:46,490 --> 00:32:47,611
want— Yeah, right. And what—
506
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:51,020
Well, absolutely. Well, I'm incroyable pour cette discussion. J'ai apprécié. C'est un plaisir de parler
507
00:32:51,020 --> 00:32:54,070
avec vous. Je pense que je vais acheter 2-3 cases pour mon
508
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:08,020
ami Thomas Cotillet. OK, merci beaucoup.