From Industrial Vineyards to Artisan Wines: A Conversation on Wine’s True Identity

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We've shot ourselves in the foot by creating these gigantic

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vineyards that need, you know, constant

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irrigation, constant pumping of fertilizers,

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fungicides, and pesticides, basically so that they can even just survive

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and produce this liquid, this grape juice. A lot

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of people are like tired of this, you know? And I think

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what we try and do, what I try and do, and what I think we

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need to do now for this very small part of the industry, is we need

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to bring wine back as a cultural product. Sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul Kaye. Hey, welcome

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to Wine Talks. Not sure which camera to look at. We are at an away

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game today. We're way away in Paris, France, embarking on

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Wine Paris, but not what we're doing today. We're here with Master of

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Wine Isabelle Legeron. She is the, what do you say, founder, CEO?

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Founder, yeah. —of the raw wine movement. Of raw wine. Yes,

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basically of the FES. That's great. Raw. R-A-W.

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R-A-W-W-I-N-E. Is it an acronym?

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Nope. No, it just means

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brut or basically unadulterated.

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So if you read the accolades about Isabelle, you'd

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read about she's the first female master of wine from

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France and other accolades, the

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diploma WSET. Yes, I'm about to receive the

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Légion d'honneur in France for my

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services rendered to the agricultural industry from the ministry. So

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that's, you know— Do you get tired of that? Tired of what? With these

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accolades and they're walking around, this is Isabelle, she's the first Master of Wine,

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a female. I don't, to be honest, I don't really think about it. You know,

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all I do is just spend my time trying to help the work of

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these producers. You know, it's interesting. You

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just struck on a chord because the French are so much better at

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this. And I think more earnest and humble at these

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kinds of honors than the Americans are in the sense of

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you have the MOF program, you have the, what you're learning,

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earning. You protect your butter, you protect

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your cheeses, you protect the wine districts. I know in some cases

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that looks frowned upon 'cause it's old school and old world. But you know, for

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me looking the other way, it just feels so

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cultural. And so when you get this honor, is this—

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it feels— I mean, of course, you know, I'm proud

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of it. You know, I like achievements. I'm also quite academic,

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so I enjoy, you know, the studying part of

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what I do, that's for sure. But not

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really. I don't do it for that. I mean, you know, I just do my

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thing. And then I think you just have to be focused and have a mission

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and then just try and accomplish that mission, you know. So that this

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feeling in this organization, RIW, now we spoke a couple years ago and

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I don't think you were just starting, but it was getting some traction.

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The industry was moving that direction. It's changed

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directions probably a couple of times since then, but you

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continue to grow. It's really fascinating to watch. Yeah, it's fun.

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I mean, you know, it's a lot of work, that's for sure. You know, I

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feel like I'm always starting up a new business every year because we

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add new cities. So now, you know, we started

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working in Asia, like 3 years ago. I started,

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well, yeah, 3 years ago, our first event just after COVID in Japan.

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And so, you know, this is like a whole new culture. You have a whole

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new etiquette of doing business. I'm very lucky that I have somebody in my team

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who's amazing and who speaks Japanese. So this is how

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we were able to get into the culture.

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So yes, you know, it's exciting because whenever you tap into

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a new market, then you have to discover, you know, the rules of business

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and also what makes You know, the wine industry in that particular

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culture. So that, that's, you know, that's great. You know, so

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that is fun. I mean, that culturally, that's like when I travel, I don't

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like to visit places. I mean, so I visited Ireland or I

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visited Paris. Mm-hmm. I like to like try and live it a little bit.

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Like maybe even upset somebody, a taxi driver or two, just,

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just to be part of the culture. Yeah. But it's the fact that you get

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to do that with this program and around wine being such a

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culturally expressive product.

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It's true. And actually it's a real privilege because it's like you say, I don't

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just go to Tokyo, you know, to spend a couple of weeks and eat out

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and just experience Japan. You know, I'm there to really

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engage with industry, understand, uh, what's working,

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what's not working, how we can contribute, but also to understand

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the local production, you know, to get more to grips with the sake

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production so we can really have a, have a fare

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which is as local as, as possible. So it's a, it is a really a

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great way to, um, to experience a country then, that's for sure. Well, I

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would think, and I think that's, this is the, you're gonna, we're gonna get in

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the bowels of some of what my thought processes are on the wine trade and

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what I'm doing tomorrow with this Rethinking the Wine Business session. Mm-hmm.

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But that camaraderie that you just

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expressed going to a country like Japan, which is, you

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know, They understand wine and they love their good

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wines and they've, you know, they know how to adopt the lifestyle around those kinds

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of things. But that's what it really is. It's a sense of camaraderie of people

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in the industry because it is so culturally

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expressed. Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and you know, the, what's really amazing

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is that, so we do an event in Canada, you know, in Montreal, in

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Paris, in New York, in Berlin, in now also in China,

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um, and, and in Tokyo. And actually, when you meet people like the trade or

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members of the public, you know, I know I could take anybody out of that

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environment and have dinner with them and have a great

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evening because actually we all share the same love of nature, the

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environment. We love, you know, artisanal

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produce, things that are really well made with the heart.

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So actually, you know, that's what's amazing. I mean, the culture is very different and

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you have to approach things very differently, but actually when you strip it down to

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the bare minimum, and you peel the onion layers,

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you know, the people are really the same. And that's what's really beautiful

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is that actually, you know, the community of people who love

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natural wine, low-intervention organic biodynamic wines, yeah, they're just

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the same. You know, they're just the same beautiful human beings. Same feeling. So this

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event today, which is really cool, was this a

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distillery or a wine production facility? Yeah, so this used to be a distillery.

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So if you wander around the building, you'll see still,

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you know, some of the pot stills Yeah, I saw that. There's like

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massive tanks. I'll show you later. And it was the first, I think it was

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the first commercially producing

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distillery in Paris. Wow. In the, I think it was in the

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19th century and it produced until 1980 something.

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So it's an amazing building, you know, to be so close to the center of

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Paris. And, you know, we have so much space. It's a, yeah,

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it's a really beautiful, beautiful place. It's, you find these places because I

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know in Los Angeles you're at the Social Club and that's, you know, besides

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the parking problem, problem. It's, it's a really cool building. Well, there's always a—

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yeah, downtown LA is always a bit of an issue. But yeah, I mean, it's

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part of, you know, that's what we try and do, you know. It's just, um,

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that's why all the production of every single fair you go to in the world,

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we produce ourselves. And then obviously we have local partners,

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you know, you know, for the team and stuff. But we try and just have

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always that same feeling, so it feels like a raw wine event

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wherever you are. Um, so this is

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Fascinating. My friends are gonna give me a hard time for saying that word again,

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but I'm gonna go to the show and I deal with

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this at home as well on podcasts with people with new

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bottling ideas and new packaging. And we're gonna change the way that

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people think about wine, all the stuff that goes on. But this actually is sort

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of a more of a foundation about wine, more of a,

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no, we're gonna dig in because this is who we are and this is what

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wine really is. It always was, right? Before we, we

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introduced all the pesticides and insecticides. The Burgundians in the

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11th century weren't, right? They were raw.

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Absolutely. Yeah. The Georgians 8,000 years ago.

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Yeah. Raw. And so I, I, I love the fact that you're growing because, and

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it seems like the premise of your talk about this culturally sensitive

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product is what's binding people together.

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And all this other stuff just seems to be fluff, just seems to be

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marketing, just seems to be ebbs and flows. Yeah. That's amazing that you say that

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because, um, you know, we're in this situation right now, obviously

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around the world where people are drinking less wine, the consumption is going down. People

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are having to grub vines. We are in overproduction.

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So it's a right mess and in a big crisis. Even Champagne

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is suffering. And I think we have

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created, as an industry, we have created this issue ourselves.

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We've shot ourselves in the foot by creating these

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gigantic vineyards that need

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constant irrigation, constant pumping of

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fertilizers, of fungicides and pesticides.

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Basically so that they can even just survive and produce this

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liquid, this grape juice. And as a result, we've kind of

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manufactured quite an industrialized drink that

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we call wine. And I think people are, a lot of people are

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like tired of this, you know? And I think what we try and do, what

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I try and do, and what I think we need to do now for anyway,

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for this very small part of the industry that we are, which is 0.01%

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of the wine industry, is we need to bring wine back as a

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cultural product, as a drink that is part

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of having a meal with your family and your friends. That is

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something that you open and enjoy rather

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than like, you know, just down a bottle of like a $2

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bottle, you know, on, you know, around the corner with, you know, with your friends

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and get drunk on. Yes. And I think, you know, now it's time

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to really think back about You know, the

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viticulture, the agriculture, the soil health, what it

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takes to actually produce these wines, the amount of work

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in the winery, the amount of love, commitment. Here it's a lifestyle

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choice to make wines like you're going to be tasting today.

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And that's our job now, is just really to communicate that. It's about

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drink a bit less, drink better, and just like,

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remember, wine is part of like, it's a

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food, you know, it's part of an experience with your family, with your friends,

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have a glass, but, and then I think

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then we can start looking at maybe

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as an industry, you know, the, most of the people who, you know, most wines

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produced today is so cheap, it's not sustainable.

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And we can replace these vineyards with something, a crop, which is maybe a little

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bit better adjusted to the environment and,

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you know, the environment that they're planted in. And I think that's the challenge now.

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And that's what we try, you know, I really try and do this for these

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growers because they are really struggling. Everybody's struggling in the whole chain.

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Is struggling. Um, and we just need to basically go back to, like you say,

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go back to basics. It seems like the growth of the wine industry,

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which is obviously profit-driven, everything's profit-driven in our

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world. Uh, you know, if you talk to Pauline Vicar at,

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uh, at Ottomi Global, you know, it's always been a consumer product. And I, and

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I agree with that. But when you go to the supermarket in Los Angeles, you

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cannot get past the wine aisle without seeing

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1,000 shelf talkers. But let's go back to that point about this,

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the raw wine movement, because it's not really

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a movement in the sense that you started this idea of getting these people together

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and supporting them. And if you read all the books about

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sustainability and even the original book on

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biodynamic farming, Steiner, you know, you

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get, you begin to sense challenge now. And

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that's what a glass of wine should do and should be. Right.

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Sense of time and place. Yeah. Take you there. That's what it does.

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Yeah. I mean, it's a magical product. Yes. You know, really, it's such a

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beautiful concept, you know, that you can harvest

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these, these grapes, you know, from these beautifully vibrant vineyards where

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there's like teeming with life, you know, you put your hands in, it smells

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beautiful. Um, you know, there's literally insects everywhere.

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And then you get this juice, you ferment it by itself. It does not

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need anything. The magic of, of fermentation, and then

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you produce a liquid that tells you the story of

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where it's from. You know, it just translates so clearly its environment.

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It's just magical. There's not a lot of other beverages like that,

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you know, and that's why it really needs to be celebrated and cherished.

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Really, you can't lose that. The general consumer, and this goes back, like we were

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in, I was in, I was in Paris, Texas

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recently. My daughter just moved there and I got this great lesson on

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beef. 'Cause Texas, right, Barbara? I had a beef hangover actually the

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next day. Okay, beef sweats. But I had a long conversation with a

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cattle rancher and going back to the wine side, which is the vines

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are, the grapes are what they eat and their ability

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to get down to the soil and the parts of the

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soil that create the character of the wine to tell you where it's from. Yeah,

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the communication between the vine and the soil for sure. And the same thing happens

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with food. But you can get wonderfully organic foods from

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Whole Foods, for instance, that don't have any flavor, that weren't

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properly farmed, right? They don't taste that great. And then last night

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we went to Polo Nord for dinner and we had carrots that you couldn't believe.

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That's just coming from the idea of a properly

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curated and grown fruit or vegetable. Well, there's organic and

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organic as well anyway, so yeah. So, but on

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the flip side of that, And this, and maybe in defense of the

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shelf talkers at the market, to bring the consumer

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to the table, sometimes you start with something a little less,

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uh, interesting, a little less complex. And one of the greatest

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compliments I ever got when I sold wine was they started in my

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regular series club and they got bored with it eventually,

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and then they stepped up in the level of what I sold to experience

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more complex wines. I don't know. I'm not sure I agree with

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that, actually. Yeah, I'm happy to— I'm glad. I think

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when you— my favorite experience is when I do— I've done

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a lot of wine teaching and I had a wine school, I've done programming,

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and actually my favorite audience are people who

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don't know anything about wine. They understand

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food, so they have maybe you know, an understanding of

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actually what maybe tastes nice or authentic. But people who don't understand anything

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about wine, you give them a wine of something really complex, full

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of terroir, very expressive, you know,

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artisanally made, they get it. You know, I think

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this idea of starting, you know, simple and moving

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up, I understand, you know, it's quite an intellectualized

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way of looking at wine, but actually if If you drink

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wine with your gut, your heart, and not your head, I

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think you understand the complexity. I think you understand that sense of

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place without necessarily having the words to express

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it. But it's like, you know, you give somebody a really good piece of

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sourdough bread or a really good piece of cheese. They don't need to start with

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a Babybel, you know, or a Vache Kiri to then be able to

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understand what a very good Mondor or 30-month-old

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Comté, you know, I don't think we

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need that word, that thing. And, but I think this And this is also part

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of what we've been sold, you know, as an idea that wine is such a—

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I mean, the marketing of wine is brilliant, but it's not working

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anymore. No. Well, I think to argue with myself on that comment I made,

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which you just countermanded, is the fact that I think I have found over

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the years, and I've brought a lot of people to wine, obviously, that

264
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it's almost universal when you present them

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a properly made wine, an honest wine, that almost everybody,

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regardless of their position or where they've been drinking wines, goes, This is

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really good. Mm. You know, they look, this is really good. Yeah. And you, and

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you know what I found also is, and which is what you do really well,

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is that when you, when you tell people the story, you know, I recently,

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I went around to some friends who, you know, they like wine. They don't

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really have too much knowledge of it. And I brought

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wines from all over the world. But, you know, with the story, you know, I

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was like, you know, this comes from these vines, you know, high up on a

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volcano. It was actually a wine from Samos, you know, reclaimed vines

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with some skin contact in an amphora. You know, and

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then suddenly, you know, and they just loved it. And it was quite a,

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you know, it was quite an out-there wine, which they'd never experienced before,

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but they just loved to know, you know, the story behind the people who made

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these wines. Yes. And I think that goes a long way because, you know, and

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I think this is what we need to bring more back into the equation is

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like the human element of how these wines are made.

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I think that's right on. I think, This patch here,

283
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which is— Yes, what is it? It's Les Amis du Vin, which was a group

284
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of enthusiasts in the '70s and '80s. It was my father's chapter.

285
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There were 150 chapters. Wow. I'll tell you the story off camera about

286
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what happened to the guy. But the point of this was to

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celebrate wine and novices and experts alike. Robert

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Mondavi would speak. I think Michael Brodbin came and spoke.

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But it was, to create an experience around

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wine. And wine's so experiential. You know,

291
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it's the same old adage, like if you drink your favorite Italian wine in front

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of the Palladium, you know, it tastes different than when you brought it home and

293
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the kids are bugging you. And then that's the experiential part of

294
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it. And I really believe that part can't be shaken.

295
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In other words, you can market your way around all the other stuff,

296
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but the part of wine that's never gonna be shaken left by itself is the

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experiential part. People will relate to that bottle

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when they have it. It's actually in the DTC side

299
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of the world, like that's what I was in. And when my dad started business

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as a direct-to-consumer marketer, we were the only one around.

301
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So that the story was, hey, there's this pharmacist from

302
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Cairo that's invented this idea of clubs and wine in the mail.

303
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And so that was the story. And then you tell the story about the wines.

304
00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:45,830
Well, that's really what wineries have. Really, that's what they get to do. Yeah,

305
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:49,590
but it's very difficult. You know, that's the challenge because you can't

306
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really, you know, okay, so people are getting better at social media

307
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and Instagram, but you know, I think we're kind of like, there's too much of

308
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that going on and I think it's just hard. Well, there's, yeah, it's kind of

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clogged. Really, I mean, you know, which is what you do is brilliant because you

310
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can actually dig down and drill down and get the story. But the challenge

311
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is how do we convey when you are in a shop or in a

312
00:19:10,350 --> 00:19:14,200
restaurant that bottle, the story behind the bottle, you know,

313
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beyond just the label is, that's the challenge. And I think that's

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what makes it really difficult. And yes, I

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think we need to get better at communicating, particularly with growers who just love to

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be in the fields and they don't really want to be— Yeah, they don't want

317
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,320
to be on camera or whatever. Exactly. And that's what they should get to do.

318
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Yes. You know, in a way we should not need, you know, a fair like

319
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this where growers who make 50,000 bottles or 20,000 bottles or maybe a bit

320
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more, you know, 75,000 bottles, They should just be in their, in

321
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their vineyard making wine and we should be able to just buy the

322
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wines. You know, it's, it's, it's for me, it eats me to know

323
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that, you know, some of these growers, they make 25,000 bottles and they have to

324
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travel, you know, the world 4 or 5 times a year

325
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just to sell 5,000 bottles. Yeah. Just to sell, maybe not

326
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5,000, but yeah, 15, 20,000 bottles. There, there are people in there.

327
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Is that, how is that, how is, how does that work? Yes. You know, how

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does that work? And that's because we're in a world now where people, you know,

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they, they think wine is all artisanal anyway. You know, if you go in the

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street and say, how is wine made today? In anywhere in the world, they'll

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say it's just grape juice. So we've been so good at marketing this idea that

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it's just grape juice, that when you have a product which is just grape

333
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juice, essentially, how can you differentiate yourself?

334
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It's, it's really hard. You know, it's really hard to justify

335
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a cost of production, which is, you know, maybe 7, 8, 9

336
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euros versus somebody who's gonna be selling some

337
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shite industrialized drink, you know, for 1 euro. It's just like, how,

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how do you, you know, it's, it's hard. You know, that's the challenge. Well, that's

339
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what happened in America. And, and I

340
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sold my company for a lot of reasons. One of 'em was I didn't expect

341
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the market to, to improve, and I'd done it long enough to,

342
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to just walk away from it. But somebody bought it. But what happened was about,

343
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maybe it was 15 years ago, this idea of bringing in 50 cent a

344
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liter stuff in a bladder, dropping it

345
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off in New York, bottling it on these brands, labeling with all kinds of fancy

346
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labels. I don't think you can fool the consumer that long.

347
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You know, they get this case of wine for $80, you know,

348
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€75 or whatever. And you just finally go, this

349
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isn't any good. I know, but you're still fooling millions of people. Yes. I

350
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don't see anything's changing. I mean, yes, they're drinking less, but I think

351
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it's mostly because the younger generation is

352
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really not drinking. But I think there's still a lot of drinking of

353
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terrible wine thinking, oh, it's the real deal. Yes, it would be, right.

354
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,880
So your, but your career didn't start that way. You started, when did you

355
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decide that this is not the raw part of it, but just the wine in

356
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,900
general was part of this? Your stepping stone

357
00:21:57,540 --> 00:22:01,260
to this? Yes. I mean, I grew up on a vineyard, so that's my

358
00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:04,940
background. And I grew up on a vineyard where, you know, we also

359
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farmed vegetables and cereal.

360
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We had, you know, pigs and, you know, basically everything we ate, we

361
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grew ourselves or produced ourselves. You know, my family were

362
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really struggling to make ends meet, and it was in Cognac, which is supposed

363
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to be quite a, you know, prestigious part of the industry. But, you know, this

364
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is the '70s, the '80s, where times were tough.

365
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And then I, you know, so I had, you know, I worked a lot in

366
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the vineyard, did the vintage, made wine when I was a kid.

367
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And then I went to university because I just wanted to

368
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essentially discover, you know, discover the world.

369
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Ended up in London, worked, you know, worked in London. And then when I

370
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was 26, my father passed away.

371
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And at that moment, it really, A, made me really miss

372
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home and realize that, my upbringing had been actually quite brilliant.

373
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And somehow I just thought, well, I wanted to get closer

374
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to my dad and my family, and I just thought, oh well, I'll

375
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just understand wine a little bit more. So I went to WSET, I did,

376
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,360
you know, Level 1, Level 2. I don't remember what they're called now, but

377
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ended up in the diploma program, ended up doing loads of jobs,

378
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,450
you know, in bars, And also I was, you know,

379
00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:26,410
like a bus— I was working for wine tour companies making

380
00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:30,230
coffee on a bus so I could travel to vineyards. Anyway, and

381
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then I ended up doing the MW, and then the rest is kind of history,

382
00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:37,170
you know. I guess I got, you know, I got the bug,

383
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so to speak. I loved learning about wine, about the

384
00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:44,370
terroirs, about all these, you know, this universe I had no idea existed,

385
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even though I was brought up on a grape farm. And

386
00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:51,930
then— That's interesting. You know, but very little, little by little, as

387
00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:55,710
I got stuck in the studying, I realized that actually I was

388
00:23:55,710 --> 00:23:59,510
looking for this image I had of my childhood where you'd walk in the

389
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vineyards and you'd pick wild mushrooms, literally morels,

390
00:24:02,990 --> 00:24:06,550
wild asparagus, wild leeks, because the

391
00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:10,230
vineyards were completely like, you know, very chaotic in a

392
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:14,070
good way. And then later, you know, my family just actually converted to

393
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:16,190
conventional, but that's a different story.

394
00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:21,550
That's very controversial. But, you know, and then I

395
00:24:21,550 --> 00:24:25,190
realized this, the wine industry wasn't that. It wasn't like people with dirty

396
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:29,030
hands or, you know, hands that were, you know, weathered and rugged

397
00:24:29,030 --> 00:24:32,510
by handwork in the vineyard. It was just full of people in

398
00:24:32,510 --> 00:24:34,510
suits and crunching numbers,

399
00:24:36,110 --> 00:24:39,950
which didn't work for me. But then I realized there was this like little parallel

400
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:43,750
universe, you know, with people. I met people like Nicolas Joly very early

401
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:47,310
on, inspirational people, growers, farmers,

402
00:24:47,470 --> 00:24:50,910
tasted wines that kind of, you know, changed everything for me. And then

403
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:55,940
that's it, you know, for me. And it's not because I, you know, I don't

404
00:24:55,940 --> 00:24:59,700
think there's, you know, it's just, it's what resonated

405
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,140
for me. You know, when I go around to a grower's house and we have

406
00:25:03,140 --> 00:25:06,620
lunch and we go to the vineyards and we just talk about the soil, the

407
00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:09,540
insect life, and that's just what I love. Yeah. You know,

408
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:13,100
it's really fascinating. This is what I just want to do. So that's why it

409
00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:16,780
makes sense for me. I'm basically working in what I do and

410
00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:20,060
working with these growers. I'm just in, you know, I mean, I'm at peace with

411
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,420
myself because this is where I want to be. You know, there's no— And you

412
00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:26,740
get to tell the stories. You know, I did not expect to be in the

413
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:30,380
wine trade. I'd worked with my father forever and I worked in the liquor store,

414
00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:32,820
but I was at a liquor store and a wine shop. He was a well-known

415
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:36,580
wine shop in LA at the time. But I can't tell you how many

416
00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:39,500
days ever— he passed away a few years ago— that I don't thank him for

417
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:43,220
putting me in it and learning to appreciate it. And

418
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:46,660
I'll admit that the first few years was strictly mail order

419
00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:49,990
marketing, how to I mail, you know, a million pieces of mail a year.

420
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:54,150
I sent 33 million emails my last year in business. But

421
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:57,430
it wasn't to sell more wine to the extent it was to

422
00:25:58,390 --> 00:26:01,830
enlighten people on what we do and the value of this

423
00:26:01,910 --> 00:26:05,270
honest glass of wine, which is the term I use now because

424
00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:09,430
that's what you're producing here. And we were at the RAW

425
00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:12,950
event in LA, the last one. And I went,

426
00:26:13,270 --> 00:26:16,790
let's focus on the idea of the RAW wines for a second. I went to

427
00:26:16,790 --> 00:26:19,620
a Georgian table and there was this

428
00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:23,220
classically amphora, you know,

429
00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:27,620
earthy— I don't say moldy, but, you know,

430
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:32,060
musty version, full of it. Okay. Which was

431
00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:35,860
clearly old school. And the right next store was

432
00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:39,660
another Georgian winery, which is a more contemporary, bright feeling. And

433
00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:43,260
so the idea, the concept, the question is, you

434
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:47,940
Should wine go through those sort of evolutions for the consumer to the extent

435
00:26:47,940 --> 00:26:50,900
that they at least stylistically are kind of

436
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:55,940
more appropriate for a generation to come? Because

437
00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:59,420
this is clearly an old generation and this is clearly a newer generation. Yeah. So

438
00:26:59,420 --> 00:27:03,220
what's the question? So is that in the realm of staying

439
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:06,660
raw or natural or organic, by the way? Yeah. Can we make those

440
00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:10,420
shifts for the consumer? In other words, do we play the consumer

441
00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:14,630
card because we need to produce wines that we think— I mean, that's

442
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:18,350
the million-dollar question, isn't it? Because it's, uh, it's chicken and egg

443
00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:22,590
question. I think, I think, um, in my opinion, and the advice

444
00:27:22,590 --> 00:27:26,070
I always give to growers, because people always say, oh, you know, can you taste

445
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:29,070
my wines, what do you think? And I think, you know, you need to make

446
00:27:29,070 --> 00:27:32,670
wines that you're really happy with, that you love, that are the representation

447
00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:36,030
of your, your place. Don't try and change

448
00:27:36,980 --> 00:27:40,100
Just because somebody gives you a comment of saying, oh, you know, this is

449
00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:44,060
maybe, you know, one way or another. Um, I think of course there

450
00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:47,700
is, you know, there is a style where people don't really

451
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,220
want like heavily extracted alcoholic, you know,

452
00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:55,020
Southern French wines, right? We, we don't really want any more

453
00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:58,860
of the 13.5, 14, 14.5 alcohol wines because, you know,

454
00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:02,500
people are not really enjoying those. And I think sometimes it can actually kill

455
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:06,990
the terroir or the grape variety expression. I mean, in some, in cases you need

456
00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:10,230
that, like in the case of Grenache, you know, sometimes you do need the alcohol

457
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:12,070
to get the ripeness and all of that. But,

458
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:17,830
I think it's important that like in the case of, so, you know, like in

459
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:20,430
the south of France, I've seen a lot of people make a lot fresher. They

460
00:28:20,430 --> 00:28:23,990
pick slightly earlier and make slightly fresher, crunchier,

461
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:27,350
you know, styles of wine, which I think is also great.

462
00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:31,630
But in the case of Georgia, you know, I think a Georgian who's been making

463
00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:35,160
wine You know, in their family's making wine for generations,

464
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,920
I think it's important for them to also stick to the style that they know,

465
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,440
that is what they make at home, that they're familiar with, that they enjoy

466
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320
drinking. I think there's basically a place for both,

467
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,960
because I think that's what also contributes to the richness, the variety.

468
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,960
You know, people in Georgia who use, you know, all the growers here

469
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,290
use Crevry mostly. Some people, you know, sometimes have tank wines, but

470
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,720
You know, whether you leave your grapes in the qvevri

471
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,520
for, you know, that huge terracotta, whether

472
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,160
you leave it for 6 months and you get a really deep-colored,

473
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,880
orange-extracted, tannic white wine,

474
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,880
or you just do a direct press like they do more in the Western Georgia.

475
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,560
I think there's just room for everyone. But

476
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,120
yeah, I wonder if it's not like a painter, right?

477
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,560
You know, you paint what you want to paint, you want people to know this

478
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,720
piece of art, and that's what you stick with, and that's what you grow, and

479
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,000
that's how you make it. And this is who I am. Yeah, I think exactly.

480
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,760
I think, you know, this is the wine, is to be who you are, you

481
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,800
know. And of course, you need to, like I said, you need to adapt a

482
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,640
little bit to, to what people might want to drink. And for example, you know,

483
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,320
sometimes I said to some growers who only have red grapes, well, make a Blanc

484
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,070
de Noirs, because actually you need in, in your In what you're

485
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:55,710
offering, you need to have maybe something which is a direct press and white, or

486
00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:59,510
maybe a light rosé, or maybe a Blanc de Noirs sparkling wine. So you have

487
00:29:59,510 --> 00:30:02,910
a bit of diversity. But I think essentially you've got to wake up at night,

488
00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:06,550
you know, in the morning and be excited about the wines you're making and

489
00:30:06,550 --> 00:30:10,230
love drinking them. Can you get excited about a non-alcoholic wine? Oh,

490
00:30:10,550 --> 00:30:13,950
for sure. But then it's great. I mean, to be honest, well, there's

491
00:30:14,190 --> 00:30:18,000
actually some really good examples. If you go to Guttegarde, They've just released actually

492
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,720
here their new project called Gut

493
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640
Feeling, and it's using botanicals from the vineyard.

494
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,280
That's clever. You know, so, so yeah, fermentation. But I think

495
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,400
there is a difference between de-alcoholized

496
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,480
wine and a non-alcoholic

497
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,360
fermented drinks, you know, using other types of yeast that do not

498
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,080
produce alcohol, more like the kombucha style with tea

499
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,770
fermentation. And I think you can actually make some really delicious

500
00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:51,730
drinks from wine. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not a big fan of

501
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:55,450
the, the alcoholized, you know, sparkling wine and that, because I think that's just a

502
00:30:55,450 --> 00:30:59,290
different story. But in our sector, growers who are starting to,

503
00:30:59,750 --> 00:31:03,490
to, to make, you know, the, the no, low alcohol drinks

504
00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:07,170
are doing really well because, as we know, people are drinking less, they're more worried

505
00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:10,690
about wellness, and they can make a drink which in a way doesn't rely on

506
00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:14,250
a crop once a year. So it's more of a reliable source of income.

507
00:31:14,990 --> 00:31:17,630
Well, I think it's, I think it's Georgian, but we have a few good examples.

508
00:31:17,790 --> 00:31:21,590
You should go and try them, hopefully. I will, because the ones I've had

509
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:25,070
have been— Oh, really? But you know, it's whatever. That's not my

510
00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:28,830
place to judge them. If people want to drink them,

511
00:31:29,230 --> 00:31:32,910
I just shouldn't have a glass of sparkling water with a lime twist, then

512
00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,230
try and muscle one of those down. But that's okay. Yeah. Whatever it is. You

513
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:39,630
know, we were talking about the Armenian wine trade and the Georgian wine trade. I

514
00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:43,190
mean, Georgia had been marketing wine in America anyway, much longer than

515
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:46,430
Armenia has. Armenia has only been able to produce

516
00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:50,110
what I consider close to world-class wines in the last few years,

517
00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:54,590
which is an amazing ascent considering that in 1991 they just became

518
00:31:54,910 --> 00:31:58,710
free. Yeah. Plus I hear that there's like tons of indigenous grape varieties. You

519
00:31:58,710 --> 00:32:02,030
know, also they use clay jars and, you know,

520
00:32:02,510 --> 00:32:04,830
I've never been to Armenia, but I would love to. Well, we're gonna get you

521
00:32:05,550 --> 00:32:09,210
up there. It's quite a place actually. But, and I'm gonna

522
00:32:09,290 --> 00:32:12,770
see the booths today at Wine Paris, and there's a couple I think are really,

523
00:32:12,770 --> 00:32:16,370
really quite good. Some again are struggling, but the point

524
00:32:16,370 --> 00:32:19,850
is you must stumble across and looking at the list of wineries that are coming

525
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:23,570
here, the regions that are being represented here at the show, you

526
00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:27,170
have Serbia and you've got Croatia and you've got Japan. I don't know if

527
00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:30,330
that's grape-based or not, but— Yeah, yes, it's grape-based for sure.

528
00:32:31,290 --> 00:32:34,730
What I know from the Armenian trade being, you know, one of the, at least

529
00:32:34,730 --> 00:32:37,450
they argue that they're the first wine nation in the world, but you know, that

530
00:32:37,450 --> 00:32:40,350
could be argued all over the place. Iran could say it, so can Georgia, but

531
00:32:40,350 --> 00:32:42,630
let's just say that part of the world. Yeah. Okay.

532
00:32:43,910 --> 00:32:47,670
Wow. How hard is it to get traction anywhere

533
00:32:47,670 --> 00:32:51,510
to sell wine? And you have these small little vendors coming

534
00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:55,350
to you and it's growing. You have more people than you did before. What are

535
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:59,150
you telling them? Like, I think, you know, before you, you

536
00:32:59,150 --> 00:33:02,390
know, what's amazing with the, with the community that

537
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:05,870
drinks natural wines is that people are a lot more open-minded.

538
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:09,520
So they're not so focused on Chardonnay, Pinot Noir,

539
00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:13,510
Sauvignon Blanc, you know, they are not like looking for the expensive

540
00:33:13,510 --> 00:33:17,350
Pinot Noir, you know, coming from Carneros or whatever. What they

541
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:20,310
are interested in is the human story, the human element,

542
00:33:21,270 --> 00:33:25,110
um, the revival of these indigenous grape varieties in places

543
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:28,390
like the Czech Republic, like Croatia, like Serbia,

544
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:32,470
like Georgia. And, and I think people are so open-minded

545
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:36,310
that actually this is such a great welcoming

546
00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:41,030
platform and community to come from these obscure

547
00:33:41,030 --> 00:33:44,790
places, much more than, you know, if you are in the more mainstream

548
00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:49,190
market. So I'm not saying it's easy because at the moment nothing is easy,

549
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:53,230
but this is the best place for them to be. So if they work organically

550
00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:56,710
and they make wines, you know, naturally in the

551
00:33:56,710 --> 00:34:00,430
cellar, and wherever they come from, you know, they will

552
00:34:00,430 --> 00:34:03,750
find a market. If it's well made and the people are nice

553
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:07,590
And they can tell their story, I think. I think that's an interesting thought

554
00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:11,710
because I have these conversations regularly with the Armenian winemakers, for

555
00:34:11,710 --> 00:34:15,430
sure. And part of the argument amongst

556
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:18,790
themselves, which Armenians are good at, argument,

557
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:22,510
is, um, well, how can we get away from our

558
00:34:22,510 --> 00:34:26,150
indigenous grapes? We're Armenia, we're red, blue, and orange, and

559
00:34:26,150 --> 00:34:29,590
we're going to grow out any acidity and Voskahatan, things no one can pronounce.

560
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,399
Versus, well, maybe we ought to throw in some French varietals and

561
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,879
show the marketplace. And it's a catch-22 because if

562
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:42,239
you do the Chardonnays and the Merlots and the Cabernets, you're gonna have to be

563
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,039
shoved into that price range to try and compete, which is

564
00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:49,799
almost impossible. Fine, if you

565
00:34:49,799 --> 00:34:52,999
have the capital to do that, do that. But then if you, but if you're

566
00:34:52,999 --> 00:34:56,599
gonna try to sell out any to the general public, it has to come

567
00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,329
through a program like this. There's no way you're gonna get on the

568
00:35:00,329 --> 00:35:03,609
shelves. Yeah. But also, I mean, to me it's ludicrous to think that you have

569
00:35:03,609 --> 00:35:06,649
a grape variety that is adapted to, you know, I mean, our media

570
00:35:07,129 --> 00:35:10,809
presumably has quite an arid, dry, you know,

571
00:35:12,569 --> 00:35:15,849
weather. So I think if you've got these amazing grapes that are

572
00:35:16,089 --> 00:35:19,929
adapted to that particular climate, and then you think, oh, look,

573
00:35:20,009 --> 00:35:23,609
maybe we should plant Sauvignon Blanc because actually this is what's gonna

574
00:35:24,009 --> 00:35:27,809
be selling, you're gonna be reproducing the mistake that then in 20 years' time

575
00:35:27,809 --> 00:35:30,710
you're gonna be grubbing all your, your grapes because you're not gonna have the water

576
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:34,310
to irrigate them anyway. And then, you know, look at what happened

577
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:38,630
in Chile, I think is a great example of a program that

578
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:41,510
was, you know, I think at the end of the 19th century that was like

579
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:44,710
geared towards French grape varieties. Mm-hmm. Instead of

580
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:49,030
treasuring Païs, which had been there for 500 years and,

581
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:52,710
or by the time, you know, 300 years in the 16th century,

582
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:56,830
which is adapted, beautiful, makes stunning wines. And

583
00:35:56,830 --> 00:36:00,550
then, you know, competing on the international market with a whole raft of

584
00:36:00,550 --> 00:36:04,310
international grapes that now actually they can't sell, where half of the country is

585
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:07,550
planted with Païs, you know, which doesn't need

586
00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:11,150
irrigation, which doesn't need that much treatment

587
00:36:11,390 --> 00:36:14,750
in the vines. You know, so this is like, they, it feels like they are

588
00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:18,590
at this crossroads. Well, they, in my opinion, they just need to

589
00:36:18,590 --> 00:36:22,150
focus on this point of difference, because who needs another

590
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:25,390
Sauvignon Blanc, and who needs another Cabernet Sauvignon, and who needs another Merlot of,

591
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:29,330
frankly. But actually, I would love to see these

592
00:36:29,570 --> 00:36:32,850
amazing grapes coming from Armenia, but you have to be able to market it.

593
00:36:33,410 --> 00:36:37,170
I have a son-in-law who lives in Paris,

594
00:36:37,170 --> 00:36:40,930
Texas, very small town. He's a— Oh, I only know

595
00:36:40,930 --> 00:36:44,330
it because of the movie, obviously. Yeah, that's right. By the way, the movie wasn't

596
00:36:44,490 --> 00:36:47,170
shot there. It was only— it was shot like in Vancouver or something,

597
00:36:47,970 --> 00:36:50,930
except for the one scene with the Eiffel Tower. Oh, really? Yes.

598
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:55,830
But it's funny because my daughter just had her fourth child there

599
00:36:55,830 --> 00:36:59,670
and I had to send ahead a case of wine because my wife was

600
00:36:59,670 --> 00:37:03,430
going to visit for a month. So a case wasn't enough, but at least

601
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:06,630
it got things started. But I had to split it in half. I had to

602
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:10,310
split my wife's Bordeaux varietals. She likes Merlots and Cabs.

603
00:37:10,510 --> 00:37:14,310
She does like, she does not like the simple versions now. She

604
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:16,790
won't drink Josh and stuff like that.

605
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,520
Forget my wife, just say that person I know. But my son-in-law, I had to

606
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,920
put the other half had to be Tannats, Beaujolais,

607
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,240
all kinds of interesting grapes, Adani, Georgian wine. He loves Georgian

608
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:33,080
wines because he's part of that generation. That's exactly what you're

609
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,440
talking about. And he's 34, I think.

610
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:41,040
But he's that generation that has

611
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,850
rejected sort of what His parents didn't drink that

612
00:37:44,850 --> 00:37:48,530
much, but he, and I shipped the case ahead and he, when my

613
00:37:48,530 --> 00:37:52,290
wife was there, he says, "Yep, Bobby," my

614
00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:56,130
grandpa's name. "I can see what he was

615
00:37:56,130 --> 00:37:59,970
doing here." 'Cause it's half for me and half for her, right? So it's an

616
00:37:59,970 --> 00:38:01,330
interesting thought. Do you have more

617
00:38:03,330 --> 00:38:07,170
wineries that were already established coming to join RAW

618
00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:10,970
or do you see people that want to get into the trade that are starting

619
00:38:10,970 --> 00:38:14,520
themselves in the beginning? To be honest, it's an interesting mix and I think I

620
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,800
think at the moment, more than ever, I'm seeing,

621
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,980
um, people who hadn't actually felt they needed to take part in, in

622
00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:25,840
a wine fair in a little while because they were more established and they were

623
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,440
selling easily, and they're kind of coming back because they realize that actually you do

624
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,680
need to be visible and you, you do need to meet your customers to create

625
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,480
that loyalty, now more than ever. Um, and I've

626
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,320
also got a whole bunch of people who are now trying to export, so

627
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,900
they've never been to our fairs before. I've got quite a lot of them,

628
00:38:44,060 --> 00:38:47,860
and they've never really been on export market because they were only relying on local

629
00:38:47,860 --> 00:38:51,340
market. So it's great because it's these producers, they're in their third,

630
00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:56,220
fourth vintage, real little gems, unknowns

631
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:01,100
to be discovered. And I think this is what's interesting is it's

632
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,700
our fairs. So you have all the classics, all the big names in

633
00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:09,110
the natural wine world, but also you have tons of people that need

634
00:39:09,110 --> 00:39:12,870
to be, you know, discovered. And so it's always exciting. It's not like you're

635
00:39:12,870 --> 00:39:15,990
coming and you're just tasting the same growers always.

636
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:21,110
You give them honest advice? Yes. I mean, you,

637
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:23,990
like, I had a guy bring me wine from Temecula,

638
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:27,590
crazy stupid name, really ugly label.

639
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:31,310
And I said, you know what? You know, you really want to step into the

640
00:39:31,310 --> 00:39:34,990
fray of marketing wine wholesale, three-tier in the

641
00:39:34,990 --> 00:39:38,610
United States. Just sell it to the local restaurants and

642
00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:42,970
be happy. Yeah. Do you ever say that? Oh yes. I mean, you know, I

643
00:39:42,970 --> 00:39:46,290
always say it's a particularly, you know, we saw it with COVID It's amazing that

644
00:39:46,610 --> 00:39:49,970
you have a local network, but you know, sometimes you want to grow a little

645
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:53,810
bit and we, when you live, you know, in some small town, you

646
00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:57,650
know, maybe, you know, in the, in the Southwest France or whatever, you know,

647
00:39:57,650 --> 00:40:00,930
sometimes you also need to be able to export if you want to grow or

648
00:40:00,930 --> 00:40:04,080
maybe try and sell your wines, you know, for a little bit more or whatever.

649
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,400
So I think it's good to have both, frankly, in this current climate.

650
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:11,520
I mean, it's hard to predict what's, you know, what's next. No, but yeah,

651
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,240
then you have to just spread, you know, your eggs in, you know,

652
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:18,600
or have not have all your eggs in the same basket as what do you

653
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,120
think is next. So I think obviously we're going to see,

654
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,640
you know, more and more interesting low, no, you know,

655
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,640
alcohol, you know, versions in on

656
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,360
the serious side, you know what I mean, with, with, with real produce, you

657
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,900
know, not just some water and then, you know, a dash of something

658
00:40:37,220 --> 00:40:41,060
or de-alcoholized or whatever. Um, but

659
00:40:41,060 --> 00:40:44,860
I, you know, I don't know. I think, look, from, from talking to growers

660
00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:48,580
and some distribution, like in the, in the, you know, I feel like January

661
00:40:48,660 --> 00:40:52,420
was actually picking up a little bit in terms of ordering. There seemed to

662
00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:56,100
be a bit of an enthusiasm. I mean, you know, so

663
00:40:56,340 --> 00:41:00,100
maybe 2026 will be a bit better than 2025. We know

664
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:03,060
commercially speaking, this is what we're all hoping for.

665
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,720
But who knows? I mean, you know, I mean, who knows what's coming from North

666
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:11,480
America is kind of dictating, you know, how everybody's

667
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,400
feeling about wine right now. So I was in Armenia

668
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,920
over a year ago, over a year ago, shot 5 shows with

669
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,720
5 makers. Wow. And they're great. They're sort of a Bourdain

670
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,460
style kind of thing. And well, we were a little slow getting them

671
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:30,040
edited and produced and they're ready to launch, but it's now winter

672
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,420
there and they don't want to show like me walking in the vineyard when outside

673
00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:36,260
there's snow on the ground. So they're gonna wait, they're gonna wait till— Yeah. Oh,

674
00:41:36,260 --> 00:41:39,221
wow. So they're gonna wait till a little, a couple months before they're launching, which

675
00:41:39,221 --> 00:41:42,740
is fine. But they were worried. I said, don't worry. I go,

676
00:41:42,820 --> 00:41:46,660
the wine industry's so slow that everything I said, it was said a

677
00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:50,260
year and a half ago, it still pertains today. It doesn't change that much, right?

678
00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:53,660
Yeah. It's just not gonna change that much. It's, it's just the way the wine

679
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:56,380
trade is. I mean, we're gonna lose a lot of restaurants, a lot of importers,

680
00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:59,500
a lot of vineyards. You know, a lot of vines are being grubbed. You know,

681
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,780
I'm from cognac. Like the price of, of land has

682
00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:06,500
tumbled in the past few years. You know, I mean, it goes like

683
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:09,660
this, but yeah. And I mean, I think now you can probably pick up a

684
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:12,380
hectare of, of planted vines for

685
00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:16,240
€20,000 or something like that. You know, whereas before it was a little more expensive

686
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:19,020
than that. But do you think, do you,

687
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:23,180
do you think even any Gen Zer today, if you said,

688
00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:26,260
uh, do you know what Tawny Port is? Or do you know what, you know,

689
00:42:26,260 --> 00:42:29,240
Vintage Port is? Or do you know what cognac is? Or do you know what

690
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,040
Armagnac is? Is, you know, you know, Eau de Vie is. I bet the percentage

691
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,640
of generation doesn't understand any of that and the

692
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,360
value that, as Florence Cathiard said, you

693
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,160
know, welcome to civilization. Like, that's what it is. It

694
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,880
really does represent that. And we don't have that because of our culture, because

695
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,320
of our phones, because of quick and easy meals, all those things.

696
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,360
We've lost track of that. Yeah, that's true. The British lifestyle,

697
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,160
really, in that case. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. It's, you know,

698
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,000
that's why, you know, I think you have to, I mean, the way

699
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,680
I'm handling this situation is, is, you know, I just need to

700
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,520
think about, okay, our mission really is to convert as

701
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,360
much land as possible to organic farming. You know, in order to do

702
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,200
that, we need to grow people who are drinking, you know, wines that

703
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,880
are, that come from clean farming and, and, and natural fermentation and just not

704
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,340
listen to the noise and like, how can we support How can we tell the

705
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:28,900
story? How can we communicate about the importance of soil,

706
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:32,220
soil life? How can we sensitize, you know,

707
00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:36,300
add sensitivity? Sorry, so sometimes my English is not the best. How

708
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:39,980
can we, you know, get people to be more

709
00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:43,580
sensitive to these issues? Because if you take them there, I think

710
00:43:43,580 --> 00:43:47,340
slowly, you know, is how people are. There is not everybody, there is a

711
00:43:47,420 --> 00:43:50,820
small proportion of people who are eating better, who are more sensitive to

712
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:54,560
animal welfare or, you know, or going to, you know, being vegan

713
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:58,400
or, you know, vegetarian. But how do we get

714
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,240
these people to also understand that wine is the same? Wine is food, you know,

715
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,360
wine has to be, you know, what you put in your body is really important.

716
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,440
So if you care about your food, then also care about maybe

717
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,280
drinking. But like I said, do not drink so much, but maybe just drink a

718
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,080
little bit better. And you just have to plow through because yes, you know,

719
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,920
and try and reach new, you know, new audiences, try and go maybe

720
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,560
more, communicate with more of the wellbeing, you know, I'm doing a fair

721
00:44:24,940 --> 00:44:28,740
in, in Japan in 2 months. And we're trying to communicate more with the

722
00:44:28,740 --> 00:44:32,260
wellbeing industry, like, or people who go to

723
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:35,580
yoga classes, or how do we get them to sort of engage with

724
00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:39,901
wine, but not seeing wine as toxic, you know, something

725
00:44:39,901 --> 00:44:43,660
to be avoided because it's bad for you, but wine as maybe a glass

726
00:44:44,860 --> 00:44:47,500
with a meal is actually okay. I guess the neo-prohibitionists

727
00:44:48,580 --> 00:44:52,180
haven't helped that. I see a lot of activity, and I know you've got

728
00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:55,540
a heavy schedule today, so we're gonna wrap this up. Yeah, people are starting to

729
00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:59,030
arrive now. Now, which is exciting. There is a book, I'll try and find one

730
00:44:59,030 --> 00:45:02,430
for you, is by a Dr. Murray. It was written in '74.

731
00:45:02,750 --> 00:45:06,390
It was written in French originally and then it became in English. And it's

732
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:09,150
called Wine is the Best Medicine.

733
00:45:10,030 --> 00:45:13,750
And whenever I have a French winemaker in the studio, I

734
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:17,390
ask him a question from it. 'Cause the wines, the curative properties of the wines

735
00:45:17,790 --> 00:45:21,550
are all French wines because it's a French doctor. But it goes through,

736
00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:25,400
you know, Beaujolais and all the famous districts. And what it's good for. And it

737
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,120
gives you a list of human

738
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,600
frailties and what wine is

739
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,400
best to at least address the symptoms. I'm kidding. 'Cause worst case is

740
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,880
if you had a nice little couple of bottles, a couple glasses of wine, you're

741
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,680
doing, feeling better anyway. But it's a fascinating book when you're talking about the

742
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,440
wellbeing. Somebody has sat

743
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,240
down and gone through the molecular and chemical breakdown of wine and applied it

744
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,980
to, to human issues. So it's kind of interesting. Such a pleasure to

745
00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:57,660
see you and meet you this time. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. I

746
00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:01,420
have to go back to the hotel, grab Mrs., make sure she's doing

747
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:04,860
all right, and then we'll get back here. Great. Well, I hope you enjoy the

748
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:08,700
day. And also, thank you for visiting and your interest. It means a lot because

749
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:12,060
this is what we need. Spread the word, spread the word, spread the word. We're

750
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:14,020
going to keep doing it. Don't give up. As long as I can get on

751
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:17,780
a plane to fly to Paris, I'm good. Cheers. Okay, thank you

752
00:46:17,780 --> 00:46:21,280
so much. Bye-bye. Beaujolais and all the famous districts

753
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,720
and what it's good for. And it gives you a list of human

754
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,480
frailties and what wine is best

755
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,240
to at least address the symptoms. And of course, worst case is if you had

756
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,000
a nice little couple of bottles, a couple of glasses of wine, you're feeling better

757
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,480
anyway. But it's a fascinating book when you're talking about the wellbeing.

758
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,930
Somebody has sat down and gone through the molecular and

759
00:46:45,930 --> 00:46:48,890
chemical breakdown of wine and applied it to human

760
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:52,290
issues. So it's kind of interesting. Such a pleasure to see you and meet you

761
00:46:52,290 --> 00:46:55,930
this time. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. I have to go back to

762
00:46:55,930 --> 00:46:59,650
the hotel, grab Mrs., make sure she's doing all right, and then

763
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:03,250
we'll get back here. Great. Well, I hope you enjoy the day. And also, thank

764
00:47:03,250 --> 00:47:06,770
you for visiting and your interest. It means a lot because this is what we

765
00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:10,451
need. Spread the word, spread the word, spread the word. We're going to keep doing

766
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,840
it. As long as I can get on a plane to fly to Paris, I'm

767
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,280
good. Cheers. Okay, thank you so much. Bye-bye.