Ancient Grapes and Modern Wines: Journey of Juliana Del Aquila

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The value of our land for Armenians is very important, and

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to really, to have the possibility of creating

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something that can be carried in a bottle and around the world,

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that is a piece of Armenia, for me is,

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yeah, kind of magic. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul Kaye.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks. Today we are so excited because

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We have in studio as a surprise guest who just flew in

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from Washington, D.C. and who just came from Argentina as

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well. This is Paul Callum Carey and we are on Spotify,

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iTunes, and Google Play. Anytime you wanna check out a

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wine talk, we have plenty up there now. You can hang out with us for

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a little bit. But an old friend's in studio,

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Juliana de la Guila. That's right. I think last time I

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said that wrong as well. No, I think you got it right this

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time. You're also joined by Ricardo Rebelo. They are

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both with the Kadas Wine organization

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in Armenia, which we're going to talk about a little bit because Armenia has become

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quite a mainstay in the Los Angeles market anyway for wine, as well as

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Fin de Mundo. That's right. Fin del Mundo. Fin de Mundo, the wines

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in Argentina, which you just found out were from Patagonia, which is great. We'll talk

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about that in a little bit. But I do want to say there is

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a growing

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awareness of Armenian wine in the Los Angeles market. Now, I mean, obviously the

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Armenians are a huge community here, but up until I'd

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say about really like 6 to 9 months ago, the wines had been distributed by

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ethnic distributors. And typically they're

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not very good at selling things. They

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don't— You think so? We don't sell wine, that's for sure.

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One day, this is off the subject a little bit, but this

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gentleman came in to sell me some wine and he was an Armenian distributor and

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I'm happy. I'll taste anything and everything. And he

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says, don't worry, I brought the glasses. And then he brings out two plastic

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cups to taste his wines with us. We

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can do better than that. Okay, so, but really, a

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winery called Kimberly, a wine supplier called Kimberly Jones, one called

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Garber. Then a great article in the AGV

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magazine recently about Armenian wines. So

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then I had a master

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sommelier here, the first master, the first winemaking

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master sommelier in America. His name is Emmanuel Kimiji,

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and he produces wine in Santa Ynez up the

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coast, and he also produces wine in Pirarat, Spain. So I

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got him on camera and we're talking, and he says, I just came down from

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Sacramento with the Cordy brothers. Now, Darrell Cordy is one of the most famous

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retailers in America. His store's in Sacramento. He's a friend of my dad's.

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And he says, you know, he poured me some Armenian wine. It was pretty

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good. That's good news. Yes, right? And then he says, now I got to

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learn about that. You don't know about Voskahat and Arany

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and those things? But more importantly, he says, now I have to compete with

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them. He goes, because there are really good values. So Kadas

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has been around how long now? 10 years now. 2010.

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Yeah, but the winery and the first vintage of wine was made in

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2010. So, wow. So you've sorted out almost 10 years.

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We— when you were here 3 years ago, we were tasting some wines. I don't

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remember the varietals, but how many brands now, or how many varietals are you guys

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growing out there? Yeah, we're growing a lot actually. We've been doing a lot of,

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um, investigation and a lot of development with the

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Armenian grapes. Um, Until now, what

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we did in Armenia, just for those that don't know anything about

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Armenia, is that— Most people. Most people.

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Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, and during the Soviet Union,

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Armenia was in charge of making brandy for the Union. So,

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the ancient tradition of winemaking was

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lost during that time. And when we started with

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Karaz, the idea was to be a part or be pioneers in the

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rebirth of Armenian viticulture. So when we started with

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Karaz, nobody was making wine in Armenia. Nobody was talking about wine in

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Armenia. So it was quite a big hit. And

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now, a couple of years later, winemaking in Armenia

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is very important. It's an industry that is very, very

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strong and the wines are getting very good. So when

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we were there, I was there in 2007 or '06.

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And we stopped at a few wineries and they were really, really not

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good. And so there was no technology, of course.

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But it's amazing to me because they unearthed that winery is

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6,000 years old, one of the only intact wineries ever known.

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The first one. Yeah. Yeah. Noah landed the ark on thing and planted grapes. Who

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knows where the indigenous grapes are from? But yeah. So the

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technology came when you came then. That's right. And in that first

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winery in Arení, What,

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what people found, what the, like, scientists

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or whoever is doing, you know, what they found

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is that the first wine ever made in history of mankind

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was made out of Areni. No, really? Yes.

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And so back that up a little bit. Yeah. We determined

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that— I've never read that. Pretty recently, or— No. Yeah, when

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they discovered the, the cave and started doing

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the ampellographic studies. That's right. Ampellography. Great, great.

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So, so all of the Vitis vinifera and the grapes that we know today,

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that we make wine of, are supposed to be like descendants of

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this Areni. Wow. That's pretty interesting. Now, so I have to tell you,

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when I got back from Armenia in 2007 and I had such a miserable experience

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tasting the wines, I went to look up the grapes that we tasted to see

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if they actually were Vitis vinifera, because I thought, well, maybe they're Vitis labrusco. No,

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they are. Some of them. I mean, there's a lot to study.

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I mean, there are lots of grapes that we,

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well, people make wine from in Armenia and they are not Bitis

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vinifera, but well. No, like, I was gonna talk about

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this in a little bit, but we don't have any in California as well. We

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have all the vines we have were brought here. Mm-hmm. And I mentioned that on

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a podcast or a video with, and a customer called and said, that's not

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true. You have Concord grape wines, which they make

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jelly out of for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. It's not

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been as— Well, that happens everywhere then. That's terrible. So tell me,

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how did you land where you, why did you choose the location for

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Kadas as it is? So

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who started the project was my great uncle Eduardo

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Ornikian. And what he thought,

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he was already making wine in Argentina, in Patagonia.

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And what he did in Armenia, he saw that Armenia had this

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tradition that was forgotten. And

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he's still very committed with Armenia and with the future of

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Armenia and the present. So, what he thought was, how can I make

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something, a project that is long-term, that creates a lot of jobs,

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but also that

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creates a product that can be taken to the world and talk about Armenia

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and really make Armenians proud of it. So, he thought about

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wine. And the only piece of land that he

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thought was suitable for what he wanted to do was in

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Armavir, in the Ararat Valley, due to the conditions, the

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natural conditions, and also because that's where he could find,

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like, a big piece of land where to settle down. And

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so, in 2007, he started preparing the land for

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planting. It was a desert. And in 2000 and—

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between 2007, it took 2 years to prepare the land. And

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in 2007, 2008, he planted the first vines.

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And he rented a little winery nearby to make the

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first wine, taking Michel Roland with him. Oh, wow.

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Michel Roland. Michel Roland, yes. Incroyable. And

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so the quality of the wine was very good. And in

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2012, he decided to build the winery.

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So that's interesting because you said Michel Rolland. I know that, uh,

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I think Armas has an Italian winemaker. Yeah. Um, and we

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don't have the know-how, or at least that we didn't. Now we're bringing in

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Europeans who've, who've worked with that. Now they got to learn stuff, new

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things. They have to learn new terroir, they have to learn new grapes, they have

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to learn new vinification for that, new canopies, uh, you know, the whole part.

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Yeah. And it's a, it's a completely different place in the world. I

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mean, it's not that you can make wine everywhere, and in

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Armenia, really, we can find the perfect conditions to make

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wine and really good ones. So you irrigate there? Do you have to put

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water on the vines there? Is it all naturally dry? Um, no, we

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irrigate from— we take water from a water reservoir

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that is actually on the Turkish side, and

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we bring it. It's all Soviet system, like the channels and

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everything. Yeah, so So how many

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varietals are you growing in those vineyards and how big is it? So we have

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400 hectares of vines. 400 hectares of vines?

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Wow. Yes, but some of it, um. That's a lot of wine you're making.

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No, but because half of it is, um,

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they're vines for like produce grapes for the brandy

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industry that we sell. Oh, I see. Okay. That we sell to distilleries. That's

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interesting. Yeah. And the other half is

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for wine and The design of our vineyard

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is a little bit different because what we thought

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is that we tried

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to bring back home all the different,

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like, descendants of Areni and bring them back home to

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Armenia. So we have all different kinds of grapes. Where'd you go look for

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those descendants? For example, we have Malbec from Argentina, we

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have Montepulciano Ancelotta, we have Cabernet Franc, we

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have Syrah. And of course Armenian varieties. So, okay.

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That was one of my questions because initially, uh, the Armenian

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trade with, in the proud Armenian state, we're all Armenians and we are

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proud of our culture, but they were, there was almost a resistance to the

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French varietals as well as the, uh, Italian varietals. But I think

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it's, well, Armenians are always resistant to anything that is

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changed. Um, but now, I mean,

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there are a lot of wineries that are making really good wine.

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Um, not only Karas, and they're— most of them are using

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international varieties also. I haven't seen much. I mean, but it's,

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it's very— I mean, I think it's very important to

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play with different things. I mean, we need to find the right potential

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and to really explore the potential of the Armenian varieties, but also,

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uh, see how other varieties that are around the world behave

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in Armenia, you know. Well, it's a, it's a

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My newest passion, and this is a very personal thing, but it's taken

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me 30 years. I've tasted maybe over 100,000 wines.

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I've spoken to many people like you and some, Jacques Laddier

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from Louis Jadot. And yesterday we had the owner of

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Château Talbot in here, the fourth-growth Bordeaux.

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But it's come down to this, and it's for me, and wine is

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about the experience. And I think for the Armenian culture, it's It's a very important

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experience. But when you are

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looking for wine and you want to sit with your friends or your family and

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you want to have a glass of wine and you want to have a good

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meal with that wine, it's different than having a beer or a

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bottle of Scotch, right? And it should connect you to

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this earth. I really believe this, right? Well, I have the same

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thoughts. And actually, I had that, like, this kind of—

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existential experience with Armenia. I think it's right. Because

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I think it's very like the value of land and the value of

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our land for Armenians is very important. And to really,

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to have the possibility of creating something that can

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be carried in a bottle and around the world that is a piece of

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Armenia, for me is kind of magic.

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Coming from that, then we want vines that go deep, that find the soil,

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that find the shale of whatever we're growing in to express that in the grapes

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and the vines. So feel it because that's where it comes from. Of course.

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And it's the passion of making sure that you— Yeah. And our, our vines

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are, I mean, they overlook the Ararat. I mean, it's impossible not to feel that

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when you drink the wine. That's great. So are you

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experimenting with the French and Italian varietals or you have them planted and you are

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bottling them that way? Are you blending with those wines or what? Blending. Just, yes,

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blending. Okay. So in the AGBU magazine, which I was trying to bring up on

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the computer here, but I couldn't find it. There, I didn't know how many

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varietals. I mean, I've only tasted probably 7 or 8

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Armenian varietals, but there are a lot. No, there are a lot. A lot.

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These, not all of them are very good. Yeah. Well, I suppose, but some are

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really, really interesting. Today, uh, somebody brought me a Georgian,

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uh, orange wine. It was like unpalatable.

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The millennials like that stuff. I don't like it. I like them a little bit.

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Some. So, when we're

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making these Italian, these ancient varietals.

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And I just had a winemaker from Italy and he's in from Campania.

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So he, he actually is finding old

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vines that he's taking the DNA and figuring out

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that it's some older Italian thing. And he's replanting these things and

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making some really interesting wines. Because it's not supposed to taste

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the same, right? Yeah. You have a different grape, you got to do something else

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different. Of course. Of course. So has the, has the

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marketplace for Karas changed to the West? Has

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it moved West a little bit? Is there still mostly Asia Minor and, you know,

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the Georgian, Russian? No, I think, I think that the, the

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interest for Armenian wines is growing a lot, uh,

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especially because people like the, the wine delivers. It's not only

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the story that is very interesting, but the wine is really interesting too

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and tells something different. Yes. But also like,

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It's very special to find a place that has this

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millennial history with wine, but it's at the same time

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very new. And our wines, for example,

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they have this

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special character, but at the same time they're very modern, but they're not.

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They come from Armenia, which is an ancient land. So it's very

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special and people are very curious about it. So not the winemaker that

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is— I'm stumbling over my words here. They're

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learning, like, for instance, does Otani like oak? Does Otani

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like French oak? I think we are all learning because we are— I mean,

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the history that we've done is very short. Yes. Michel

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Rolland always tells me this thing that it makes me a

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little bit nervous, but he says, to make wine, you need— we only

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need 100 years. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, what? I just

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started. 5, 7, 8. Yeah. Well, actually

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the wine, the proprietor of, of Château

246
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Thabaud was saying that his winery is 100 years old.

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You know, I suppose that's valid, but I think in today's— But that's the

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interesting thing. I mean, my great uncle, he started this project and

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me and my, me and my brothers, we are continuing the project.

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And I mean, this is something that is going to be like forever.

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I mean, this is going to pass to our children and to their children.

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And true, it's, it's a, like

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a, It's something for Armenia. It's for Armenia and it's for the family. And for

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the family. And it's, you know, wine's about the story.

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You know, I love the fact that I've been doing this for 30 years and

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my dad invented this whole industry about direct to consumer, you know,

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30 years ago. But when you're having wine and

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we're talking about this passion and sensing the soil and

259
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sensing the family, and this is the way I, I'll tell two stories from

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that. One is in America, we have this huge problem with Groupon wines.

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The last Groupon offer I just saw was $45 for 15

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bottles of wine. Wow. And a free corkscrew. Wow. And it's junk.

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I mean, I'm just telling you, I know it's junk because I know where they're

264
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getting it. They're paying €1, 50,000-gallon bladders from

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who knows where in Europe and bringing it here and bottling it under these brands.

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It's terrible. That's not an experience, right? How can you have an experience and taste

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some wine with some friends or family and go, you know, I bought

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this for $3. That's not a good experience, right? No.

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As well, I get a lot of customers that'll text me from vacation

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and they'll be in Italy and they say, I'm at the restaurant and they take

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a picture of the back label and they send it to me and they ask

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if I can get the wine and I get them the wine, same vintage, same

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grape, everything's the same. And then they say it doesn't taste the same.

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Yeah, of course not. Well, you're not on vacation in Italy looking at the Parthenon,

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right? And so that's why I have this new

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sort of passion about the idea of the experience. It's

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all about the experience. It is. Yeah. So when I go home tonight, my wife's

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going to ask for a glass of wine. She's not doing it to catch a

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buzz, though she does, but it's to just

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wind down, connect. If I may just add

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something, apart from experience, I believe that there's a

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lot linked with emotions. Because you know that one thing is the experience

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is what you mentioned about being the terroir, the climate,

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the sun exposure, whatever you want to talk. But then it's emotion

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because you know, so you say that you are returning back home. So if you

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are happy, perhaps then you'll take a bottle of wine on a different way.

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That's right. And if you are sad or if you didn't have a

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very good day, you know, it's— They do taste differently. And emotion.

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And this is, for instance, what I believe that makes wine different from

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the beer industry or other industry because you can open a bottle and you can

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talk a lot about, let's say, different experience, different emotions,

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how you open it. And you can just

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express yourself in facing wine, you know? And there is

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sometimes people say that there is a difference between a wine

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lover and a winemaker. And basically it says that a

296
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winemaker, when he looks Toward

297
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the wine, he has to make decisions in terms of blending and the wine

298
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lover facing decisions, it takes wines. Yes, that's right.

299
00:18:41,820 --> 00:18:44,580
Okay. I like that. I have to start using that. That's a great one. That's

300
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:48,380
very funny. Well, it's true though. You, it's about the experience and you mentioned

301
00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:52,180
exactly right. If for instance, I'll give you an example that I start

302
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working with the Urnequián family and we are, they are building together

303
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kind of Urnequián style of, of wine, both in Argentina and in,

304
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,760
and in Armenia. And at the beginning, I've been working on the

305
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wine industry for the last 25 years, but at the beginning I was a little

306
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bit in doubt if I should go or not. And they convinced me

307
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because they brought me a bottle of Grand Carache from Armenia.

308
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Oh, wow. And I say, how come I was not— He was a hard catch,

309
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,560
but that— But I got really enthusiastic about

310
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,640
the wine and the experience of what they are doing

311
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also, because Juliane didn't mention, but also what they are doing in terms of

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the community, what they are helping people just around the

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vineyards and just employing people. And it's quite huge. For instance,

314
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I remember that I'm more, in a way, if I may say, more business-oriented.

315
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And I said, so instead of doing manual crafting, why don't we

316
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use just a machine? You know? Yeah, right. And

317
00:19:49,690 --> 00:19:53,170
say, no, come on now, because then we'll have people unemployed and this is not

318
00:19:53,170 --> 00:19:56,780
our project. It's a different way of looking also. So

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it's a way of returning towards the country and towards people, something that

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they receive and something that sometimes you

321
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will not find in other type of industries. It's not exclusive from them,

322
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but it's a way of looking towards people. And

323
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:15,380
at the end of the day, when you mentioned the terroir,

324
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terroir is not only the climate, it's not only the soil, it's

325
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also about the soul the soul of the people that works

326
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in the vineyard. And this is what they also wanna care and

327
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wanna potentiate. Well, so I'm guessing that because

328
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of all the latest activity, and I love

329
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,600
Vahhegoshkarian with his co-op idea. I think it's a brilliant idea to allow other

330
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people the opportunity to make small lots. But

331
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:45,200
the industry must have changed the complexion of Armenian industry in

332
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,040
general. I mean, it's provided many jobs and new cultures. Is the government

333
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supporting all this? Are they? More or less. Well, you know, The situation

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00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,620
in Armenia has been changing. I didn't want to bring up politics. No,

335
00:20:56,780 --> 00:20:59,420
no, of course not. But I mean, there is

336
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kind of support. Not a lot, but

337
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something. They're aware of what's going on. Yeah, yes, they are.

338
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And but it's mainly

339
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sustained by privates. And of course,

340
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our view of the industry is to

341
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choose everything, or at least as much as we can, Armenian.

342
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So that's really helping other

343
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industries grow, like bottles, labels, designers.

344
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I mean, everything we do, we do it in Armenia. So that's pushing a lot

345
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:40,470
also. That's a whole other subject I would love to touch

346
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on. Bottle, glass manufacturing, and of course, and things, you know, when

347
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:48,210
we talk about wine, we talk about food. I

348
00:21:48,210 --> 00:21:51,770
have an experiment that I do with my own staff and customers of mine where

349
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I give them a glass of wine, red wine, and they taste

350
00:21:55,770 --> 00:21:59,090
it. And then I have them bite a cucumber with the skin on, which is

351
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bitter. Then they taste the wine again. Typical Armenian pairing. Yes,

352
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:06,610
exactly. Tomatoes. Right. And but it

353
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changes the flavor. So and I believe in the world of wine

354
00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:14,250
generally, the wines grow up with the foods. Yeah. Right. And that's

355
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,600
You go to different parts of the world and you pick ones. But America doesn't

356
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have that. California is, you know, we're the new frontier, so we get

357
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to create our own cuisine. But in Armenia, these— is

358
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there cuisine now that, that's— I know that it's more modern. I know

359
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,480
Yerevan's become more modern. It's more— yeah, but it's very interesting what's going on because

360
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,320
in the last couple of years, wine bars have been

361
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opening in Yerevan. So that's a change. And also,

362
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,720
like, places where you can't smoke inside. So they are more

363
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,560
oriented to wine and food and pairing. But can't smoke inside?

364
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,880
Cannot in Armenia? In Armenia, which is a lot. Huge change. Yes.

365
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,200
Not every place, but there are a lot of places where you can't smoke. And

366
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,960
also in the last couple of years, there are a lot of people from

367
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the diaspora that have been going back to Armenia, especially

368
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Syrians, Armenians, and The food

369
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and the cuisine has changed a lot for good.

370
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A lot of the food that, for example, me and my family have

371
00:23:15,580 --> 00:23:19,380
in Argentina as Armenians that you couldn't find in Armenia

372
00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:23,220
because it was locked, now you can find it and it's delicious.

373
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So it's— I think Armenia is getting more sophisticated.

374
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:31,520
The food culture. I mean, I love talking about food. My daughter's a

375
00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:35,110
baker in New York. She works for a guy that has a Michelin star.

376
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:38,950
So, uh, we, we're always talking about it, but, you

377
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:42,030
know, I think about, I think about the Armenian cuisine we had when we were

378
00:23:42,030 --> 00:23:45,790
there. It was very limited. Yeah. Pork, chicken, meat

379
00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:49,470
and fish and tomatoes. But they didn't even have ingredients also. Yeah. Right.

380
00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:53,230
Now everything is— Do you have social, uh, events at the

381
00:23:53,230 --> 00:23:56,350
winery? You know, they have again, jazz parties or whatever those type of things. We

382
00:23:56,350 --> 00:23:59,670
do. We do. And how far from Yerevan is it? It's an hour away. Oh,

383
00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:03,350
so that's not bad. No, it's right on the, on the border with Turkey. Do

384
00:24:03,550 --> 00:24:07,370
you know Sardarabad. Yes. Well, it's on the way to Sardarabad, like 10 minutes

385
00:24:07,370 --> 00:24:11,210
from there. Oh, wow. That's, that's, I think that's an important part of the wine

386
00:24:11,210 --> 00:24:14,530
trade in general for wherever you go except Bordeaux, France, because they don't open the

387
00:24:14,530 --> 00:24:18,090
doors. But other than that, you know, it's like for Napa Valley, it's

388
00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:21,770
critical that they have people drive through the train. So I don't know if we

389
00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:25,170
wanna shift gears to Argentina a little bit, but I wanted to

390
00:24:25,570 --> 00:24:29,410
touch on the idea of, in America there's this term, I have

391
00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:33,040
competitors that use this term, but It means nothing in the world of wine, but

392
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,120
natural wine, they call it, right? Yeah. And I bring it up with all the

393
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,560
winemakers because it's kind of a hoax, right? It doesn't really mean

394
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,360
anything except I think if you peel it back enough, it's

395
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,840
like how many touch points does the winemaker or the viticulturist

396
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,960
or the vineyard manager touch, add, you know, we know we

397
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,740
have to sulfur grapes because they'll, they could mildew and then you've got, you

398
00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:57,600
waste the whole thing. So we're here to make a profit. We wanna make some

399
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,290
wine that people can drink and we have to make money, but is there a

400
00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:04,930
movement for organic biodynamics sustainable? I think the movement

401
00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:08,650
is everywhere. And in Armenia, actually, we're converting our vineyard

402
00:25:08,650 --> 00:25:12,410
to organic. Oh, you are? Okay. Yes. What certification? And I mean, we're using

403
00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:15,650
the French. It's both European and

404
00:25:16,610 --> 00:25:19,250
American. No, no, not Armenian.

405
00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:24,450
There's like an. A representative of the certification in Armenia,

406
00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:28,100
and that's the. That's the person who controls the

407
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,540
production. And also when it comes to natural

408
00:25:31,540 --> 00:25:35,060
wines, of course we use natural

409
00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:38,620
yeast and we try not to add anything to

410
00:25:38,860 --> 00:25:42,140
the, to our wine production. Natural yeast is interesting, right?

411
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:46,860
What, I'm sorry, but what is unnatural? Even if you buy the yeast, if it

412
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:50,380
came off of grapes, it's, it was harvested. Why is that unnatural?

413
00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:53,620
I, I, I mean, it's the one that is there. I mean, you can also

414
00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:57,190
buy it from Bayer. I don't know. Yeah. So, I don't know. So,

415
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,160
so, so we don't, we don't add any, any yeast and, or

416
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,850
color or, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's, it's actually

417
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,640
quite organic anyway. Anyway, that's the way

418
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,280
that we work and we try to keep it clean and

419
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,840
very like healthy. And we had a very interesting conversation with the

420
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,920
winemaker from Sequoia Grove in Napa and she, she was very

421
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,930
esoteric and she's like, you know, really? Farming

422
00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:26,650
in itself is unnatural. In other words, yeah, that's true, right?

423
00:26:26,650 --> 00:26:30,450
You're setting it up, right? Of course. Of course. You have to do that, right?

424
00:26:30,610 --> 00:26:34,250
But it sounds like even already you're sort of on a sustainable thing because you're

425
00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:37,570
talking about not going to mechanical harvesting. Yeah. Mechanical pieces.

426
00:26:37,809 --> 00:26:41,650
You're regenerating. Drip irrigation. I mean, we are

427
00:26:41,650 --> 00:26:44,370
very conscious on the way that we

428
00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:48,970
manage our production. Yes. So you'll get a certification you can

429
00:26:48,970 --> 00:26:52,610
put on the back label. I'm starting a club here that's gonna be focused

430
00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:56,410
on sustainable organic biodynamic wines. That's good for people that, that

431
00:26:56,410 --> 00:26:59,770
feel like that. I mean, they, they call it, they try to call 'em healthy.

432
00:26:59,770 --> 00:27:01,610
I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'll healthy.

433
00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:06,810
So, and I, I want to, that'll help me transition to

434
00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:10,770
Patagonia a little bit. I, I had a wonderful conversation a couple years ago

435
00:27:10,770 --> 00:27:14,530
with Piero Incisa. Mm-hmm. And, uh, well, you know, pedigree

436
00:27:14,530 --> 00:27:18,180
history of winemaking and he has this Pinot Noir Farms

437
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:21,780
down that way in Rio Negro. Yeah, in Rio

438
00:27:21,780 --> 00:27:25,540
Negro. Fascinating wines. And one of the first

439
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:28,940
conversations I ever had about biodynamic farming, and he's talking about the

440
00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:32,620
armadillos coming into the vineyards and there's more worms and ants than there ever

441
00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:35,700
been, which I think is great. I think it's great.

442
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,620
So what's happening in Patagonia with Fin de Mundo?

443
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,700
I know that we were talking about we don't have representation in Los Angeles yet,

444
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:47,260
but I can certainly help you find somebody that I know works hard and does

445
00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:50,900
a good job. That's important. But how many hectares down there and what are we

446
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:54,100
growing? Well, that's a different project. In

447
00:27:54,580 --> 00:27:58,340
Fin del Mundo is in San Patricio del Chañar in Neuquén.

448
00:27:59,060 --> 00:28:02,820
So it's the province that is next to Rio Negro where Piero is.

449
00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:06,780
And the production there is a big— it's a little bit

450
00:28:06,780 --> 00:28:08,660
bigger. We have 800 hectares.

451
00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:14,230
And yes. And that's a huge, huge problem.

452
00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:18,070
That's huge. And, but the good thing is that, well,

453
00:28:18,390 --> 00:28:22,150
I think that wine should be accessible to any pocket.

454
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:25,750
So that's actually what we are looking for. Like we have a

455
00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:29,750
wide range of wines for different markets and for different

456
00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:33,590
possibilities of purchasing a good quality wine.

457
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:38,030
So that's the goal. So the market for the Fin

458
00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:41,060
de Mundo, obviously, I mean, I'm just guessing because location.

459
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:45,700
Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think Americans would be more receptive in general to

460
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:49,520
Argentinian wines. They already are. But are you, uh,

461
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,420
how is that a challenge compared to the Armenians or vice versa?

462
00:28:52,820 --> 00:28:56,620
Distribution of those wines? No, I mean, it's not, it's not hard. I mean,

463
00:28:56,620 --> 00:29:00,100
you, you go from Patagonia to Buenos Aires and there anywhere else.

464
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:03,900
So, oh, okay. So it's, it's, it's not that hard. It's,

465
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,100
it's harder as far as getting the wines to

466
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,528
like for instance, China. Is there a market in China for Armenian wines? It is.

467
00:29:11,528 --> 00:29:15,120
Yes. Yes. And it's growing. No, not really. Not

468
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,440
yet. Not yet. But I understood there's a rather large

469
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,200
Chinese tourism in Armenia. Is that not? Now, now there is.

470
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:25,560
Yes. Okay. So. But they're not taking the wine home.

471
00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:31,480
No. But it's a different reality. Imagine that, I say right

472
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,840
now, for instance, Argentina exports to US something like around

473
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,490
20 million cases. So, And Armenia, the

474
00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:42,210
production is nothing compared to that, but it's a growing

475
00:29:42,210 --> 00:29:45,890
market. Yes. And in what concerns Patagonia, the point is that it's

476
00:29:46,530 --> 00:29:50,210
different in terms of climate and in terms of terroir from what you can find

477
00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:53,930
in Mendoza due to the fresher nights.

478
00:29:53,930 --> 00:29:57,410
It's more natural, if in a way, if you can consider, because there

479
00:29:57,770 --> 00:30:01,450
are less treatments over there. And of

480
00:30:01,450 --> 00:30:04,800
course, in a way, when you want to

481
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,440
distribute your wine on the US market or

482
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,201
even overseas market. So, you know, it's more easy to find

483
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,400
someone interested in an Argentinian wine from Patagonia because it's different from

484
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,240
Mendoza. Sure. And in Armenia, there is a growing interest. The

485
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,480
good thing for us in terms of working as a group is that we can

486
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,520
offer two different proposals from two different

487
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,930
places of the world under the same guidance of, Juliana,

488
00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:34,650
another style that she want to build up in terms of the wines. And

489
00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:38,690
that's the good thing that just from one side and from the other. That's pretty,

490
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:42,370
actually a pretty interesting viewpoint of what's going on out there. I can tell you

491
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:45,290
when I get wines in here to taste, and I taste every Tuesday,

492
00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:49,770
my eyes open when I get Patagonia wines because I think they're fascinating.

493
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:53,850
So much of it's Mendoza or Salta, those places. And I love getting

494
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:57,650
Patagonia wines, but— you know, in

495
00:30:58,210 --> 00:31:02,050
America, we've gone from 4,000 wholesalers to 700.

496
00:31:02,050 --> 00:31:05,810
Yeah. Across the country. Yeah. Right. It's because there's consolidation going on. Yeah.

497
00:31:05,810 --> 00:31:09,570
So it's become, that side of the market's getting very difficult too. So how

498
00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:13,130
does, how does that, how does that play out for the Armenian wines in, in,

499
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:16,770
in America? You have a, is it New York, Michigan, and—

500
00:31:16,770 --> 00:31:20,250
No. California? Basically for the time being for us is New York and,

501
00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:24,020
and California. Is it? For instance, we just came from a tasting on

502
00:31:24,020 --> 00:31:27,580
last Monday at New York and say, even

503
00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:31,380
if it's a small basis, but let's say our sales grew by

504
00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:35,180
5 times in the last year. And it was, let's say, testing

505
00:31:35,980 --> 00:31:39,660
of our distributor in New York. And it

506
00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:43,500
was, let's say, around 700 people. And our table

507
00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:46,780
was one of the ones catching more interest

508
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:50,780
from people. Really? Yeah. And then people, in a way, they want to discover, let's

509
00:31:51,460 --> 00:31:55,300
say, new varietals and the way that we are mixing up these

510
00:31:55,780 --> 00:31:59,500
traditional varietals with the new ones. And as you said, it's a

511
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:03,220
world of experience, you know, and people want to have new experience, new

512
00:32:03,540 --> 00:32:07,020
emotions, new things, and to discover. It's true. And

513
00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:10,020
it's interesting because let's say in a way, we are not on

514
00:32:10,420 --> 00:32:14,180
the mainstream because as a group, we are presenting Armenia and Armenia and

515
00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:17,780
again, Patagonia is different. So, we don't have another, it's not

516
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680
just another wine from California or whatever, things that are different. So we are

517
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,320
getting interest. We just came on a kind of wine tour and

518
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,840
paying calls to important wholesalers and distributors

519
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,600
here in the US. And in fact, we find interest.

520
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,400
We find a lot of interest. We found that there are

521
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,240
interest on this type of wines. It's funny because I have

522
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,920
a lot of Armenian friends. You know, we were just in Vegas with them. Yeah.

523
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,640
2 of them just built new cellars, beautiful glass doors in the

524
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,840
house. Not one Armenian wine in them. And I want to change that for them

525
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760
because all they want is Napa Cabernet. I can't even get them to buy Bordeaux

526
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,440
because they don't understand it yet. And I think this is an important thing because

527
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720
the kind of events you're talking about, it can be like GuineaFest. But who showed

528
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,360
up at GuineaFest? Armenians. If I may

529
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,120
add something also, for instance, we were last March in Provine, which became,

530
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,250
let's say, one of the largest wine exhibition in the

531
00:33:12,650 --> 00:33:16,450
world. And again, we had a chance to present the two wines together

532
00:33:16,450 --> 00:33:20,090
to big importers from Canada, people like Chartonovs or

533
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:23,610
people in Finland or Sweden. And in fact, and

534
00:33:24,170 --> 00:33:27,970
even friends from other companies, they came and they taste the wines, the Armenian

535
00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:31,690
wines, and they said, oh wow, we are surprised

536
00:33:31,690 --> 00:33:35,450
because there's a lot of people talking about wines from this part of

537
00:33:35,450 --> 00:33:39,010
the world, but Now we can see the quality on

538
00:33:39,010 --> 00:33:42,450
your wines. It's starting in the colors, starting in the tasting, in the

539
00:33:42,610 --> 00:33:46,450
flavors, and also in the presentation. Starting in the vineyard, of course.

540
00:33:46,450 --> 00:33:49,170
Vineyards, yeah. And what— But it just seems to me, and this is why I

541
00:33:49,170 --> 00:33:52,890
brought it up and we'll wrap up in a few minutes, but if

542
00:33:52,890 --> 00:33:56,050
I look at, let's say, a bottle of Armas, which has got

543
00:33:56,370 --> 00:34:00,210
Armenian famous writing in it, it says Voskahat. So

544
00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,410
I had my wine tasting downstairs. I do it once a month for my customers.

545
00:34:03,410 --> 00:34:07,230
We have about 25 people and I poured the vodka hat. And I'm like,

546
00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:10,910
they go, what is this? I said, it's vodka hat. But

547
00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:13,990
I said, you're never going to walk into a wine shop and say, do you

548
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:17,750
have any vodka hat? Not yet. Unless somebody tells you, unless

549
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:21,170
we do these kinds of things. In Armenia, the only word that I know is

550
00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:24,550
kamats, kamats. Yeah, kamats, kamats.

551
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:29,030
So are we going to do these kinds of things? Of course. I think notwithstanding,

552
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:32,740
I think we need to see them at large. Like, for instance,

553
00:34:32,740 --> 00:34:36,420
Young's Market, Southern Wine Warehouse, all the local distributors that put

554
00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:39,300
on their tastings. These wines need to be poured. Yeah.

555
00:34:40,180 --> 00:34:42,540
Because the liquor store guy, the restaurant guy has to see these wines. Yeah. And

556
00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:45,540
it's important also to pay attention to people that are not

557
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:50,020
specially, like specifically in the Armenian community. Yeah. Because there are lots

558
00:34:50,020 --> 00:34:53,700
of people outside the Armenian community that are very interested in tasting the wines and

559
00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:57,540
in knowing the story. So, well, like Emmanuel Kamegi was telling me, and you

560
00:34:57,540 --> 00:35:01,390
look him up 'cause he's a fascinating guy. He said, when I got my master

561
00:35:01,390 --> 00:35:05,230
sommelier in 1995, even though we had featured

562
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:08,550
many Chilean and Argentinian wines in this club by then, in fact, we even featured

563
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:12,070
the 1985 Codascal, the

564
00:35:12,070 --> 00:35:15,870
'78 Codascal in 1982. So we were sort of knew

565
00:35:15,870 --> 00:35:19,310
these things. But he said even at that time when he got his

566
00:35:19,870 --> 00:35:23,710
degree, there wasn't much to study. There wasn't much to know. It

567
00:35:23,710 --> 00:35:27,520
was still France, Germany, Italy. America. And now

568
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,280
he's learned those things. I think that the fact he tasted

569
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,080
Armenian wine at Darrell Corti's place is a huge thing in the microcosm of

570
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,200
it because that's a major vendor. And here's a guy

571
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,560
that can walk around and say, I'm a master sommelier. I just

572
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,040
tasted some really good Armenian wines that were really, really reasonably priced. And I think

573
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,640
that's an important thing. I don't know how you do it, by the way. You

574
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,480
bring these, make them in Armenia, get them bottled by bottle. Yeah. Bring them

575
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,080
over here, get them into the store. And they're what? Like, what's the average price?

576
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,873
About $16 or $18 for a Karas wine now? Yeah. Something like that.

577
00:35:58,873 --> 00:36:01,780
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, well, it's been a great, great pleasure having you both. We are

578
00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:05,180
about to launch a new, a new range called A Tale of Two Mountains that

579
00:36:05,180 --> 00:36:08,900
will be more price competitive. It'll be around $12.99, something

580
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:12,500
like that. You're kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Tale of Two Mountains based on

581
00:36:12,580 --> 00:36:16,020
the Ararat. That's pretty amazing. On the Ararat. Yeah. Who's in charge of that

582
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:19,860
project? Me. You are. And that was probably actually one of the questions before we

583
00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:23,540
cut off. What, what is your, uh, you're going between these

584
00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:27,310
two wineries. Mm-hmm. What is your, You're overseeing the whole thing. You're like

585
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:30,750
the— in the French wine, there's the directeur de

586
00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:35,790
culture. Is that it? A little bit of both. A little bit overseeing, a little

587
00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:39,910
bit doing a lot. So, I mean, it's a family project,

588
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:43,150
so we are working a lot. Well, what do your brothers do? Are they doing

589
00:36:43,230 --> 00:36:47,070
anything? Yeah, well, one of my brothers, he's more in the financial part

590
00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:50,670
of the business, and the other one is based actually in Patagonia

591
00:36:50,670 --> 00:36:54,350
now and learning about the production. And so is he jealous you get

592
00:36:54,350 --> 00:36:56,710
to travel? And how do you work with your brother? Because my sister and I

593
00:36:56,710 --> 00:37:00,450
would never never work together. Well, no, no, it's,

594
00:37:00,450 --> 00:37:03,970
it's really, it's a pleasure to work with them. Yes, I do work with my

595
00:37:03,970 --> 00:37:07,450
wife though, and that's a pleasure. That's good. Great having you both

596
00:37:07,770 --> 00:37:10,250
here. Uh, we hope we have a chance to do it again next time you're

597
00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:13,570
in town. I know you guys are on tour the next couple of days, but

598
00:37:13,570 --> 00:37:17,330
this will go up on the podcast in a week or two, and, and we

599
00:37:17,330 --> 00:37:20,090
want to bring in some karas. I know that you're with Beaumont right now,

600
00:37:20,970 --> 00:37:24,410
right? Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we'll talk, uh, we'll talk to them

601
00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:28,410
too. Good. Well, thank you very much. Thank you so much. Cheers. Take care. Bye.