Puglian Wine Evolution: Mark Shannon’s 46-Year Passion for Quality and Authenticity

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If you think about our interest in eating well,

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people at a certain socioeconomic level want to eat well.

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They want to celebrate their day. They want to celebrate with their friends. They want

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to have a reason to sit at the table and break bread, share a smile

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and a kind word. And that goes with a glass of wine. Sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul K. Hey. Welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And

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we are at an away game, like, way away, in Puglia,

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Italy. Easy for you to say in a small town called Noce.

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About to have a conversation with Mark Shannon of Amano

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Wines. This is really quite a thrill for us to be here. Thank you for

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having us. Thank you. I appreciate it. You know, I was. When I was looking

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for things to do in Puglia, and I went through my list of wines I

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had tasted over the years, and I found many, many a mano wines. And

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I thought, let me see what this is about. And I question that. And

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I asked Vahe Kushgarian, and he goes, oh, you have to talk to Mark. He's

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got such an interesting story. So why would that be? What's so

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interesting about Mr. Mark Shannon that we were here? I don't think there's anything that

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interesting about me. I'm a student of

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winemaking. I absolutely love it. I don't sleep at

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nights thinking about how to make better wines every year. And I've been doing this

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now for 46 years. I'm very proud of what

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we do. I'm very proud of being Pullian. And

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so interesting. But you were born in Toronto? Yes. Okay. And then you

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moved to California? California. You raised in California? I was raised in

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California and in Southern California. And I could

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not wait to escape, really. So as soon as I could, I moved to

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Davis to study. And it was.

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I had intended to be a physician. I have an abiding

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love for medicine. But even at the tender age of 18, I really

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realized that dealing with people at their worst was not for me.

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Yes, I want to deal with people. At their best, and they're at their best,

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and they're behind a glass of wine. That's right. You know, it's a funny story,

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because my dad was a pharmacist, and he bought a pharmacy

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that came with a liquor store. And he realized that everybody came.

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Everybody came in the pharmacy was sick and ailing, and everybody that came to the

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liquor store is looking for a party. And that was pretty cool. Message received.

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So when you went to Davis, did you go to for medicine or did you?

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I was accepted and I was pretty miserable. I

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come from a modest background, Paul. I decided to go home and break the

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news to my mom and I figured that it was going to be World War

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three. So I flew home and I told mom that, you

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know, I've been accepted, but I don't want to go. And

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I was pretty worried about her response

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and being my mom. She looked at

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me, she said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to enroll

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in a graduate program in winemaking. And she looked at me and she said, you

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know, Mark, you're going to work for a very long time. Work

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at something that you really want to do. Wow, that's pretty cool. And

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so here I am. And so you went to Davis and you just

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went. Did you switch majors at that point?

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Sort of. Sort of, yes. Fortunately,

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education in Davis was rather open minded. As long as you met the

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prerequisites, you were welcome to do what you wanted to do. And

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I met the prerequisites and I had to convince some professors that I was

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qualified and they embraced my, my

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desire to be there. And then it's a.

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She's right. It's a long career anyway, regardless of what you do. And if you're

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going to do what you want to do, that's obviously what we all strive to

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do. So you're pretty fortunate doing that. But when you got into the

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knowledge, did it satisfy the things that you were looking to do? I mean, was

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it that interesting? Because it is science. It is part of the, you know, the

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biology. There's molecular technologies there. It satisfies

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my every desire. I love to ferment. I love the

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improvement. I love the fact that there's a seasonality. I like the

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fact that every year presents a challenge. I like the fact that I can go

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into a vineyard every year and talk to the grapes and see what

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has changed for them from this year to last year to.

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To 10 years before. Those are, those are

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wonderful, wonderful elements. For that passion was

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developed during your college or was it like. I started

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making wine with a veterinarian at home. We

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grew a little vineyard in Malibu. And oh yeah, he said to me,

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look, when this vineyard, when this vineyard is

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mature, I don't want to know any more about it. And so I started making

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wine with them. And I kept my bedroom at a very

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healthy 58 degrees all year round. This is all

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the time that I had. This is after you graduated? During school. Oh, during school,

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during school. So before I even graduated,

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I was recruited by Bogle And I ran Bogle for 10 years, which is

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wow, now the largest. I started there in

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1981. I say there through 1990. Well,

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that was its heyday when Bogle was still sort of. Thank you Paul

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Group. And they made great wines. We featured many, many Bogle wines in that era.

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It was, it was an interesting 10 years life, but

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became like a huge. A huge enterprise though at some

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point where they were making all kinds of things.

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It was time for me to move on. There was no more growth available

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for me. The family really wanted to be more involved.

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And I think that when you work in

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this industry, when you work for somebody else, you have to realize when it's time.

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And I gave them the 10 years that got them going. I

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left and I built a winery for Fest Parker in Santa Barbara. Another

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winery for another small winery in Santa Barbara.

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I built a winery in West Texas. Wow.

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You know, first of all, Bogle, didn't they have a midnight, a midnight

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cuvee where they harvested at midnight

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patissera or something? We always harvested at

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night in all the years that I was there. We started at 9 or 10

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o' clock at night and we worked all, all night long. And so Fess Parker

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was when 80. I started with, with Parker in 91

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and I stayed there for a few years and likewise when it was

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mature. And consulting

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is a fun endeavor,

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but the minute the owners think that the ideas were all

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theirs because you've given them all to them, it's time for you to move on

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and do something else. Right. And so I've always done

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projects that I felt were interesting and satisfying.

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I went for the U.S. state Department. I took a winery through privatization

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in Slovakia. Everybody does this,

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which was. I was one of the few people that both had the technical abilities

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and the marketing background. So that was

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a blast. That was absolutely Slovakia.

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The post communist era was so confusing

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to these poor people because they were used to having the ministers tell

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them what they could have and what they needed to do. They never developed an

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entrepreneurial spirit. And the

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experiences were, were fascinating. Did that change when you

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were there? We changed it. I mean did that did actually move the

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needle. We were talking about our media earlier. It was simple. It was simple. You

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had to show them how to do it. I went into my clients and I

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said, are we ready for harvest? Yes. Everything's okay?

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Yes. No problems? No problems. You sure?

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Well, we don't have any grapes. Oh, oh, that's

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a little problem. Who has the grapes? The social

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cooperative. Ah. Do you know the president of Course.

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Would you see if he. If he'll see me go down and say

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exact same conversation. President, are you ready for harvest? Yes. No

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problems? No problems. So we're going to start in 10 days. He

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said, well, there's a little problem. What

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is it? He said, we don't have diesel for the tractors.

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That's a problem. That's a little bit of a problem. If my

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clients give you an advance so that you can buy diesel,

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will you give them all the grapes that they ask for? They wouldn't

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do that. Oh yes, they will do that. But that was

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what post communism was like. And okay, it's simple

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and don't make more of it than you need to. But if you show them

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how you work in. In a

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capitalist system where everybody rubs each other's back,

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then all of a sudden things happen very quickly. How long were you there? There

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for two years. So did you really see a change in the mentality? Yes,

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because we're having, you know, we were just talking about Vayakashkarian and what he's done

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in Armenia. And we're talking about. Generations have gone already. They still

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not registering the capitalistic idea.

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The people who were hungry got it very quickly. Yeah, the people who

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wanted it got it very, very quick. There were a lot of people who didn't

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want it. How was that worldwide experience? Like the shit. I mean, you went in

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at Puglia, but after that, where did you go? Did you go back to the

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States and words, no. I've been here for 28 years and

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this is home to me. So from Slovakia you came

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here? I was back in the States. I did a project in

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Washington state and then I came here. I actually

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came here. I was asked to do a consultation in Sicily for a brand

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that I had, that I was. That I had known in California

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and was fond of. And it had fallen off and the

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owner reached out and asked me if I would do a quality program for him.

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So I went to Sicily and the

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only problem with. With it was that being a good Californian, I'd

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studied Spanish my whole life and I didn't speak any Italian. And we

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were in Sicily. When was that? Just recently, March. And

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realized that. That it's not Italian. It's a different language entirely,

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a different culture. So what did you do there with Narella Mescali

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or some? I helped them with all their. With. With all their. Their

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projects, including a joint venture with Australia

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which Elvie was running. But it was at that point in time

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where I asked her

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if she, having been A very successful consultant, and I was

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pretty happy. Said, if you're good and I'm good,

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why don't we do a project for ourselves? And she.

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She said, okay. So anyway, were you.

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I mean, was this, like, relationship growing already or was this still

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strictly. No, it was. It was growing. We're past business at this point. We were

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past business at this point. And she called her mom and

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said, I've met this American. And I had already. I already knew what I wanted

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to do. I said I wanted to come here. And I said. He called him

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up and said, I met this American and we're going to go to Puglia and

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make wine. Her mom broke out in tears and said,

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no, Alvy, can't you get a normal job?

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She doesn't say that any longer. So is that. But that's.

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But that would seem like. I mean, Art's experience with the Sicilians

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is a pretty proud bunch. I mean, we're going to pick up a move to

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a different part of Italy and start making wine there. And when I

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was in graduate school, the origin of

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Zinfandel was still unknown. And

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a pathologist had been to Puglia and seen Primitivo and had told us in a

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graduate seminar about it. He said it looked a lot like Zinfandel to him.

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And so we were escaping the pressure of doing a

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quality program by going away every weekend. And I

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said to her, could we go to Puglia this weekend? I want to see this

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grape called. Primitivo. Said, I can't tell you if it's

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infidel or not for sure, but I'm either going to know it or not know

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it. And that was 28 years ago and we haven't

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moved. So it is. Wasn't a

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DNA tested to be a descendant of Zinfandel? No, it

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is exactly the same DNA. Carol,

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Meredith and company traced it to a almost

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extinct variety called Kralenic in Croatia,

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but probably the origin of it is

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Montenegro. Really?

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The father of viticulture is a geneticist in Italy,

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and he correctly said the area with the most

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biodiversity is very likely the origin of. And that

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would be Montenegro. So it's

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traveled. I don't think I've ever had a Montenegro based wine, though as an

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appellation. I've not gone to see it. This is a fairly new experience

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and I don't travel as much as I used to. It's interesting

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because Zinfandel is not the most popular grape in America. And

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of course, probably when you started making wine, it was Considered maybe

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the only indigenous grape that America ever had for vinifera. But that's not

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the case. It was. Zinfandel was a

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beautiful category 30, 40 years ago. And

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before it has been ruined by.

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By an excess of criticism.

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Criticism by critics who have pushed the style of it into something that I consider

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undrinkable. Yeah. And it's a shame because it's really the

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quintessential table wine. I make wines like

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I drank with the Italian immigrants when I started in the

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industry. The wine that you had when you broke bread, and I find

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those wines still very, very interesting. You know, the. The

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Puglia, when I started in 88, was really considered bulk wine. It

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was kind of like the low die of. Of. Of America.

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And in. That's changed in that time frame, we were

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producing 1.2 billion liters a year. Wow.

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And it was basically the wine cellar of Europe. If you

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had a weak vintage in Bordeaux, then

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you would exchange trailers in the border. If you

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needed to sell Rioja in supermarkets, you had Malvisianera that

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you could turn an air compressor on and oxidize, and it became Rioja.

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The amount of Negro Amaro that has been sold as Chianti would

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turn your head. Fortunately,

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in these 28 years, they have managed to clean a lot of that up.

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No, the reputation has changed radically. But it's interesting because there was

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even back in the earlier centuries, the idea of putting

234
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Tariga nasty now from. From Brazil in a.

235
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In a Bordeaux wasn't. It wasn't offensive. They

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did it all the time. And then it became very important to be appellated,

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driven. And now we're at a point where, you know, that's Puglia has made a

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name for itself based on the varietals that you guys are growing. I think it's

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really interesting. Is it a worldwide. Is there a worldwide acceptance to

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Puglian, Primitivo and Negro Amaro? There is. No. Yeah, there is

241
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now, but it's required a lot of work, a lot of. A lot of

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heavy lifting. A lot of people like Vito, who was willing to

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travel half the year and show people what these wines

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are really like, why they are, why they are worthy, why they are

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terrific values and very, very friendly. Yes.

246
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Well, like I said, we're talking about Armenia and Otany. And the idea,

247
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the concept I'm trying to peel back a little bit is you

248
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not only have a region that wasn't necessarily considered,

249
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you know, a great region, and you were creating bulk wines. You had

250
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grapes that no one probably really knew much about. And there's some grapes here

251
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listed on this conversation that I've never heard of but never tasted before.

252
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That's a lot of headwinds to producing a brand or a

253
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regional acceptance amongst them. Well, we were younger and we had a

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lot energy. We were full of ideas, didn't have any money, but we

255
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had all the ideas. And fortunately for

256
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us, all of our friends around the world knew what we were doing

257
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and they all wanted to be part of it. So we had a very quick

258
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acceptance. Right place, right time, right

259
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skill set. And as you know, it's better to be lucky than good. Well, that's

260
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true. It's interesting that you pulled out of, you pulled out completely. The

261
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States or just California? We pulled to the States. And so where are the other

262
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markets in the rest of Europe? We cover all of Europe. We cover parts of

263
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Asia, we cover Australia, New Zealand,

264
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Brazil, Canada. Still,

265
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it's. But I would say that

266
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the vast majority of our sales are European because. I've been asked by many

267
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Armenian winers, good wines, the wines. You know, the technology in Armenia has

268
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radically changed since they became free and now they're making wines. I think there's

269
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a few that are world class. Yes. But the idea that we just talked about,

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which is trying to get a brand and a grape that's no one ever heard

271
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of to a state like California. And here you are pulling out because

272
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the margins suck and the three tier markets pay in the rear end. And

273
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I have people calling me saying, will you present my wines? And the distributor is

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saying, we don't need to taste any more wines here. The

275
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distributors don't need anything. They can't sell what they've already got in their

276
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book. And if they take something, it's a defensive position. It's not,

277
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it's not an opportunity just to make sure nobody else takes it. You know, back

278
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:12,829
in the days of Bogle, they used to build brands like that, right?

279
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They, you could give that to a wholesaler and they would say, yeah, we'll take

280
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this to the street, see what's going on. I cannot tell you how many red

281
00:17:18,589 --> 00:17:22,189
eyes I took to work all day and, and fly all night to

282
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present to distributors around the United States in my Bogle days. But

283
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:28,869
that's the way you did it. You went in, you presented your wines, you found

284
00:17:28,869 --> 00:17:32,160
the people who were believers, and business was done.

285
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It worked. Now, how about now? Not the estates, but the rest of the country,

286
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,720
the rest of Europe. And there is, there are very little, very few growth

287
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,120
opportunities still. We're in a Neo

288
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prohibitionist state, which is very, very

289
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sad to me, very confusing, very unpleasant.

290
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The unfortunate talk about the health issues related

291
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,800
to wine are devastating. I don't know how people are

292
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going to eat for the next 10 years. I'm certainly not going out to a

293
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fine restaurant and having a glass of water. It's affected, it's

294
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affecting. I mean, this is the bottom line right here. Yeah.

295
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,080
It's that new prohibition is

296
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,680
reached Europe, as you obviously you're telling us. But I find that shocking because

297
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,680
I can see California. We've already been through prohibition once before. Yes. And the

298
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,360
conversations that occurred just before prohibition and much like what you're hearing today,

299
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,810
I don't think it's going to result in complete prohibition. No,

300
00:18:30,370 --> 00:18:33,170
it's a social issue now more than, more than anything.

301
00:18:35,410 --> 00:18:39,050
It's going to come and go. I think though. Well, you have to

302
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,450
hope so. If you think about

303
00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:46,850
our interest in eating well, people at a certain

304
00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,850
socioeconomic level want to eat well. They want to celebrate their

305
00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:54,490
day, they want to celebrate with their friends. They want to have a reason to

306
00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:58,050
sit at the table and break bread, share a smile and a kind

307
00:18:58,050 --> 00:19:01,710
word. And that goes with a glass of wine. No question about that.

308
00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:05,550
It's too part of much of the human DNA. Yes.

309
00:19:05,550 --> 00:19:09,070
And when we talk about this winery that's 6,000 years old, that's,

310
00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:12,510
you know, could be the. Considered the beginning of wine in this regard. But

311
00:19:12,670 --> 00:19:15,630
it's always been part of the human experience. Not

312
00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:18,430
a buzz. It could be a buzz, but

313
00:19:20,110 --> 00:19:23,710
even. Without a buzz, I think it's such a socially uplifting

314
00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:29,130
habit, if you will. Are you part of the what goes together, grows together

315
00:19:29,130 --> 00:19:32,730
type mentality? Mine is a very highly

316
00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:34,850
evoluted sense of,

317
00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:39,730
of growing. I am very, very close to my vines. I

318
00:19:39,810 --> 00:19:43,570
believe in some of the very old practices like Silvesta, where you,

319
00:19:43,570 --> 00:19:47,370
where you plant the right kinds of, of crops in between the

320
00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:51,090
rows in the off season to increase the

321
00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:54,770
nutrition of the soil. I believe that healthy soil helps

322
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,920
make better quality wines. I'm very

323
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,560
much into the true biodynamic, not the Steiner

324
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040
version of biodynamics. What's the difference? Steiner was a

325
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,760
charlatan and a thief. But

326
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,480
the concept, just so you guys know, he's the author of what you would consider

327
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,160
modern day biodynamic farming. He's the guy who wrote the book.

328
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,760
Everybody's got this book except maybe Mark. I've got it.

329
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,520
I've got it. I read it and I couldn't believe it. I've never heard this.

330
00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:27,420
The portrayal before, well.

331
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:33,020
There are not sprites under the ground that push the. Push

332
00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:37,340
plants up. Nor are there gnomes in the sky. That pull them up.

333
00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:41,980
That guy. Nor do you need to bury a horn full of cow

334
00:20:41,980 --> 00:20:45,340
manure in order to give nutrients to the soil.

335
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:50,540
But biodynamics really means that healthy soil confers

336
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,980
health and vigor to the vines and you have a better product.

337
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:57,890
That concept is absolutely sure. For sure. I was

338
00:20:57,890 --> 00:21:01,650
watching. Where were We? I was talking about the goat cheese. I was

339
00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:05,450
reading a book. I was reading a book on a gentleman that uprooted

340
00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:08,290
his family and moved the south of France. And there's their first few days in

341
00:21:08,290 --> 00:21:11,370
this village and they're starting to decide maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

342
00:21:15,370 --> 00:21:19,130
You know what I'm talking about? Oh, yes. So he. They went to

343
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:22,740
the cheesemonger and they got this cheese and he goes, I could taste what the

344
00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:26,500
goat ate. And that. The concept of biodynamic farming

345
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:30,180
is you are what you eat. Eat. Yes. Right. Yes. So were you. Did

346
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,900
you start out in biodynamic farming? No, I started out.

347
00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:37,660
Bogle was a very conventional viticulture. Why me? Here,

348
00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:41,980
when we started our own. Our work here

349
00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:45,980
is very old. When you go into a

350
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:48,540
vineyard that's been in the family for three or four generations,

351
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,360
one of the things you do not do is say what you're doing is

352
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,080
wonderful, but the minute you say, but, the conversation

353
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,560
is over. You don't push a pullion, you pull.

354
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,640
If you make my quality, there's an incentive. There's a lot more

355
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,120
money and a lot quicker payment. And that

356
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,960
appealed. That appealed. That was how we started the quality revolution of

357
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,770
Poole. Well, I suppose. Right. So the.

358
00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:18,890
The biodynamic part. Well, they probably were not

359
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:23,330
completely congested with chemicals anyway prior to here. Or was

360
00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:26,610
it because it was bulk farming? That's what it was. Okay. You've been around here

361
00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:30,010
long enough. Do you remember when. When vineyards were actually white

362
00:22:30,570 --> 00:22:34,170
with treatment before harvest and harvest was a month or

363
00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:37,810
six weeks later than it is today? Yeah. Things have

364
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:41,410
changed a lot. Things have changed. Things have progressed. And don't

365
00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:45,210
forget, please, Paul, that the first profit for a grower is

366
00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:48,770
a savings. If they don't have to do anything, they don't.

367
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:52,450
Yeah, Right. And that was the native. That sets the native viticulture of

368
00:22:52,450 --> 00:22:55,450
Puglia. So your passion here is to

369
00:22:56,010 --> 00:22:59,810
best represent what you've got out there. Yes. And make sure people can

370
00:22:59,810 --> 00:23:03,610
taste that. Absolutely, absolutely. It's my obligation to Puglia.

371
00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:07,250
I live very well thanks to Puglia. And I have an

372
00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:10,700
obligation to pay back. Yes, very much.

373
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:14,420
Nochi is a fantastic community. Well, it's our first time here

374
00:23:14,420 --> 00:23:18,220
and we're fascinated by it already. If you spent a few days here, you would

375
00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:21,980
probably be adopted. Yeah. They are so open and welcoming that.

376
00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:26,540
So Amano's now looks. We're looking at a bunch of

377
00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:29,980
samples here. Yes. It looks like you have four different.

378
00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:34,300
Four fans. Yes. We started with

379
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,740
a Mono Primitivo. That was the only thing that we made for the first few

380
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:41,580
years. But there were so many interesting things to do here

381
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:45,660
that I couldn't stop. And fortunately, my partner

382
00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:49,020
has been very, very kind and

383
00:23:49,660 --> 00:23:53,260
permissive. Anything that I wanted to do, I was able to do.

384
00:23:53,980 --> 00:23:57,660
She's the author of some of this in 2012.

385
00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:02,100
Because we live in the countryside, we walk our dogs twice a day.

386
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,820
And 2012, before harvest, she asked me to make her a special wine.

387
00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:09,410
I said, of course. What would you like? She said, I'd like you to make

388
00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:13,050
me a wine. That's the essence of your personality. And I had a very

389
00:24:13,050 --> 00:24:15,850
intelligent response. Huh? Yeah.

390
00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:21,690
She said, I want a wine that's big and big and bold

391
00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:24,850
and smiling, always ready to give you a hug. I said, oh, yeah, I can

392
00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:28,010
do that. How interesting. So

393
00:24:28,490 --> 00:24:31,610
since we're the mother and father of the modern Primitivo, it had to be a

394
00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:35,260
Primitivo. And since I'm a non interventionalist, the only

395
00:24:35,260 --> 00:24:39,100
thing that I felt was morally acceptable to

396
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:42,420
change the profile would be to dry the grapes and so

397
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:45,980
imprint. Primitivo was born as, as a, as a

398
00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:49,700
dried, as a dried Primitivo. So like

399
00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:54,740
a Moroni type. Not that heavy. No, no, I, I still make

400
00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:58,580
wines people could drink. Yeah. Oh, let me see. Last

401
00:24:58,580 --> 00:25:01,340
night we were at a restaurant in. In what?

402
00:25:01,580 --> 00:25:05,380
Brindisi Steakhouse. And then I

403
00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:08,460
wanted to order them Amaroni, but I knew that, that,

404
00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:12,820
that, you know, dried grape raisin, old school funk was

405
00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:16,659
gonna destroy the meat. Sweet side. Nothing to do it. But that gentleman

406
00:25:16,659 --> 00:25:20,140
gave us a bottle next to us. It was not Primitivo,

407
00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:24,300
but it was pulled in. It was, it was in. It was a

408
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:28,120
Burgundy bottle. You were in the heart

409
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,720
of Negro Maro. So it's very likely one of the, one of the docs of

410
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,440
Negro Maro. And they can be very, very wonderful. Wines,

411
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,400
really good wines. So tell me about the Primitivo here. Is it.

412
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,360
The ones I've had are the ones. And I was trying to bring up my

413
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,960
database here, which is apparently this location can't get. I was going to tell you

414
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,320
what vintages of Amano? I had tasted many of them for a long time,

415
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,640
but Primitiva doesn't seem to be, at least ones I've tasted lately,

416
00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:56,850
that indicative of where they're grown. They're just big, opulent wines. Was that sort of

417
00:25:56,850 --> 00:26:00,530
Napa style that's coming up. But are you getting terroir out of these

418
00:26:00,530 --> 00:26:03,610
wines? Oh, I absolutely do. The

419
00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:07,050
Pulleyans, When. When the bottled wine industry

420
00:26:07,050 --> 00:26:10,570
finally caught hold, there were some very bad

421
00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:14,370
habits in Scandinavia and other parts of Europe where the

422
00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:17,690
sweeter they were, the better they were. Yeah. And so the wines

423
00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:21,210
had. The primitives have evolved into a style that

424
00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:24,930
I don't care for, and I'm not prepared to.

425
00:26:25,410 --> 00:26:29,170
I'm not prepared to chase anyone to the bottom. I want my wines

426
00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:32,690
to taste like the vineyards where they were grown. And

427
00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:36,290
is that. Is that a. Is. Is that a conflict for you? Where.

428
00:26:37,250 --> 00:26:41,010
Because of these Neo prohibitionists, because of packaging changes, because of

429
00:26:41,170 --> 00:26:44,610
stylistic changes that people are drinking and because Gen Z doesn't know what the hell

430
00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:47,730
they're doing, is that a conflict for you to

431
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:52,860
stay that course? No, this. You just. I'm doing it. I

432
00:26:52,860 --> 00:26:56,380
don't care. If they don't want the wines the way that I feel

433
00:26:56,460 --> 00:26:59,900
they should be made, then they don't have to. They don't have to buy them.

434
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:03,260
There's. There's a world of opportunity out there. If you want a

435
00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:06,780
jammy, you kindly call it opulent. We call them

436
00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:09,580
piacione, which means they try too hard to please.

437
00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:14,820
If that's what you want. We go to a restaurant called me

438
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:17,140
Piaget. That means I like it.

439
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:22,100
No, I. I don't have any problem with it. And fortunately, neither

440
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:25,700
Vito nor Alvezia have any problems representing them. They're

441
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,140
proud of them. So because this, you know, this whole idea of, like,

442
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:33,100
cans, tetra packs, like, I had a guy on the show from Cornell

443
00:27:33,100 --> 00:27:36,820
whose job it was was to create some kind of new lining for a can

444
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:40,340
so the wine would last 24 months. Yes. And. Which is disgusting,

445
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:44,010
sounding as it is, let alone. And you can't shift gears that

446
00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:47,450
quickly to even try to adopt, to adapt to this. So it seems to me

447
00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:51,170
there's two groups of marketeers. There's the marketeer that's trying to adapt to the

448
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:54,370
marketplace, come to the market as fast as they can with whatever it is, packaging,

449
00:27:54,450 --> 00:27:58,210
low alcohol Prosecco with no sugar, whatever they're doing. And

450
00:27:58,210 --> 00:28:01,890
then purists like yourself who want to represent

451
00:28:01,970 --> 00:28:05,650
the terroir, who want to represent the region, who Want their wines to

452
00:28:05,890 --> 00:28:08,610
mean something when you drink them. Why would you get out of bed in the

453
00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:12,150
morning? Why would you work this hard? I'm fully retired

454
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:15,510
and I only work six and a half days a week, not less than ten

455
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:17,830
hours a day. Oh, well, that's. Yeah.

456
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:23,270
No problem. No problem. No problem to me either. I haven't worked so

457
00:28:23,270 --> 00:28:26,230
hard producing this podcast, selling wine. It's like.

458
00:28:27,109 --> 00:28:30,950
So you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. You know, I've seen a lot of

459
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:34,710
these fads come and go. I can remember when people thought that the more money

460
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:38,150
they put into advertising, it was Rush Limbaugh giving a

461
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:42,150
promotion or what have you. I never saw them catch on. I never saw them

462
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:45,850
get traction. They're ideas, but they're not

463
00:28:45,850 --> 00:28:48,530
really marketing cans. I understand.

464
00:28:49,810 --> 00:28:53,330
And I think, in my opinion, it was something that evolved from the

465
00:28:53,330 --> 00:28:57,130
commuters on the East Coast. They go get on the train

466
00:28:57,130 --> 00:29:00,010
and they have a couple of cans with them and then make that hour and

467
00:29:00,010 --> 00:29:03,010
a half train ride more. More palatable.

468
00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:07,170
There was a woman in that, that was canning wines, and she thought that the

469
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:10,770
Chateau Lafitte would be in the can one day. I'm like, that's probably not going

470
00:29:10,770 --> 00:29:13,920
to happen. You know, there are

471
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,560
a lot of bad ideas out there, but I don't like to give voice to

472
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,120
them. That's one of them. Well, this is. What do we have in our glass

473
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,840
right now? You have Fiano Greco. Oh, that's the first white

474
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,560
wine that we made. Here we are in a part of the country that

475
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,200
produces 80% red and very small amounts

476
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,480
of white. I found this vineyard when I welcomed a new

477
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,000
Primitivo grower into the family. It's a very strange looking great.

478
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,670
Fiano is shaped like an egg and it's got freckles on it. And I

479
00:29:41,670 --> 00:29:45,350
didn't know what it was, but winemakers are like little children.

480
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:48,630
The first thing you do is put something in your mouth and then you decide

481
00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:52,150
if it was a good idea or not. I tried this. I said, wow.

482
00:29:54,790 --> 00:29:55,590
Tasted it already.

483
00:29:59,030 --> 00:30:02,750
And so it started that to the point where we now have quite

484
00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:06,510
a few acres of Fiano under our control. It's

485
00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:10,310
got great acid, but it's got a tropical, you know, DNA knows. But

486
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:13,910
this is great, really special. These tend to be older

487
00:30:13,910 --> 00:30:17,310
vineyards. Yes. But I don't think that the age of a vine has.

488
00:30:17,390 --> 00:30:20,990
Has. You know why everybody thinks older vines produce

489
00:30:20,990 --> 00:30:24,630
better fruit? Because they're equilibrated between the.

490
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:28,390
The foliage, the vegetation, and the fruit quantity. But you can

491
00:30:28,390 --> 00:30:31,910
manipulate that. You can take a 4 year old

492
00:30:31,910 --> 00:30:35,710
vine and make it behave like a 25 year old vine just by doing

493
00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:38,110
the strategic defoliation at the right time.

494
00:30:39,490 --> 00:30:43,250
I didn't know that we have. We vines don't really

495
00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:46,570
care about making grapes for wine. They care about

496
00:30:46,570 --> 00:30:50,330
reproducing. That's a biological need. So if the grapes

497
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:53,890
are ripe or not, their job is to get them mature enough to release their

498
00:30:53,890 --> 00:30:57,650
seeds. That's all we manipulate the system.

499
00:30:57,650 --> 00:31:01,010
Is that mono brand. What's the other one? Imprint.

500
00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:05,010
Imprint. Would you like to try Falangina? Yeah, let's try that. Oh, Falangina

501
00:31:05,010 --> 00:31:08,610
grape. This would be a great grape for them to try. It's a rebirth of,

502
00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:13,150
of an intolerance for

503
00:31:13,150 --> 00:31:15,790
the. The sales of alcoholic products.

504
00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:20,110
I went out, we have a friend in the next village over with a very

505
00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:23,790
fine restaurant and, and he's a good friend and I

506
00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:27,870
did a delivery to him three weeks ago and said, how's it going?

507
00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:30,910
He said, you won't believe it. I can have a table of four.

508
00:31:31,470 --> 00:31:35,310
And they will leave having spent €90 and had a glass, maybe

509
00:31:35,310 --> 00:31:38,950
not even a glass of wine. I can get out of the for appetizer for

510
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:42,590
19. Actually

511
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:46,150
we've been very impressed with the wine prices on the menu here. Italy is

512
00:31:46,150 --> 00:31:49,990
very fair. Unbelievable. Italy and France, you drink well at

513
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:53,230
the right price. Portugal as well, Spain as well.

514
00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:56,030
The United States is outrageous.

515
00:31:58,270 --> 00:32:01,710
We had a Ornalaya, you know, La Serra Nuevo.

516
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,960
It would be 200 on the list. In America it was €38 or something. It

517
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,720
was €80. Something really cheap. How about the

518
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,360
prices then of the Pullan wines? Are they. Were they in that

519
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,200
stratus of, you. Know, really life for pulley and

520
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,120
wine is under $15. Really

521
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,760
under 15? That's might be 17,

522
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,680
depends on the markup on the state, but that's really where life is. And you

523
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,390
know what? That's what a good bottle of wine should cost you. You should be

524
00:32:32,390 --> 00:32:35,950
able to have a nice one. You might say, okay, it's Wednesday,

525
00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:39,910
love. We're going to have, we're going to have a decent bottle of wine because

526
00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:43,510
I just made a meatloaf for you. That's normal.

527
00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:47,270
There's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that you have to spend

528
00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:50,950
60 or $70 to enjoy that. Don't

529
00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:54,430
forget please that in these agriculturally

530
00:32:54,510 --> 00:32:57,740
based countries where

531
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:00,620
the work was very, very physical,

532
00:33:02,780 --> 00:33:06,460
it was manual, there was a need for an enormous amount of

533
00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:11,260
calories to get you through the day because of the work that you did and

534
00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:15,220
agriculture is by definition, rather poor. So where did you get those

535
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:18,380
calories from your wine, your oil,

536
00:33:18,780 --> 00:33:21,580
your grain, your bread? It wasn't meat.

537
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,800
That wasn't on the. That wasn't on the. On the plate. So the

538
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,480
enormous consumption of wine in France, in Italy, was because

539
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,240
of the nature of the work. It's

540
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,000
changed, yes, but the wines have gotten better. The need for all that,

541
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,360
all those calories is certainly diminished, but

542
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,560
it's still very, very imbued in our culture, which

543
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,320
is one of the reasons, Paul, prices are still reasonable. Because the

544
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,100
problem is in America, because of the supermarket shelves, and I

545
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:55,540
know they have them here, too. But a 15 wine in.

546
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:58,900
On the supermarket shelf at Ralph's has been clobbered with

547
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:03,180
acid, sugar, you know, defoaming agents, all the things that you don't want

548
00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:06,940
in a glass of wine. And you can tell. Yes, you can

549
00:34:06,940 --> 00:34:10,780
tell as soon as. You open, you can tell what the. Industrial wines holler

550
00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:14,580
at you when you open them. Exactly. And this is. This is Valentina

551
00:34:15,220 --> 00:34:18,960
Falangina is native to

552
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,280
the. To the north of Puglia, and it extends into

553
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,400
Campania, into the. Into the Naples area.

554
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,720
It was grown there before anybody had the temerity to divide political

555
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,240
boundaries. It grows at a very high altitude.

556
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,880
It's a fascinating grape. Every grape has its own characteristics, its own

557
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,080
personality. And this one has the grace

558
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:45,320
to defoliate itself after about the 15th of August,

559
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,830
really. So when the sun starts to finally get a little bit sweeter

560
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:52,900
and the heat, the heavy heat is over, it starts to

561
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:56,940
dry up and drop its leaves off, which lets that

562
00:34:56,940 --> 00:35:00,780
warm, lovely sun in and finishes ripening, and it

563
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:04,340
does all on its own. I did notice driving up here that the

564
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:08,020
state of the vineyards was radically different from the lower levels to.

565
00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:11,540
When we started driving into this area, they were losing their.

566
00:35:12,340 --> 00:35:15,860
Now we are going. But there were some that were still green, different

567
00:35:15,860 --> 00:35:18,020
vineyards. Yes, we're starting

568
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:23,280
our descent into dormancy now. My vineyards are.

569
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,440
My reds are turning red, my

570
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,200
whites are obviously turning brown, and the leaves are drying up. And the

571
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,400
global warming affected you here? Yes, absolutely.

572
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,360
Climate change. The first wine that you tried, the Fiano Greco, was. Because

573
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,320
Fiano is very aromatic, but it lacked structure.

574
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,160
And Greco is fairly neutral, but it has a beautiful

575
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,850
structure. In the past three years, what we've seen

576
00:35:50,850 --> 00:35:54,290
is that the Fiano has improved

577
00:35:54,770 --> 00:35:58,490
its quality, its structure, its intensity. And the Greco

578
00:35:58,490 --> 00:36:02,210
can't stand this warming and this

579
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:06,010
increase in UV radiation. So this will be

580
00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:09,450
the. From 25 on, it will be pure Fiano. We won't make

581
00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:13,290
Fiano Greco again. Unless the climate reverses, which I don't see

582
00:36:13,290 --> 00:36:17,140
that happening in my lifetime. So you're not handling it with, you know,

583
00:36:17,140 --> 00:36:20,860
different canopies? Different. If you don't adjust to. To

584
00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:23,540
the weather, then you don't get the best out of your vineyards.

585
00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:27,860
Okay. The last time I tasted your wines was 2010.

586
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:32,540
And that was, let's see, who was the

587
00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:35,780
distributor? Wine warehouse. Yes.

588
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:40,420
Yes. And I liked it. How about that?

589
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:45,640
Thank you. It was the. I wrote Zinfandel, which it wasn't Zinfandel, it was

590
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,160
Primitivo. How interesting. They were good

591
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,000
wine. Mars used to be really good. I don't know what they're doing now, but

592
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,720
they were. They were the best bridge. They were. Did you know

593
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,480
Don Schliff? Yes, he's a good friend. He's got this

594
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,240
big port tasting coming up soon. Charges about three grand to

595
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,920
come. The greatest port collection in the world right in Glendale. Don

596
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,720
is a fantastic human being. He used to be

597
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,160
one of the first visitors at Vinitali. Every year, the minute the door

598
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,440
opened, you could count on Don being there one morning. Did you go to. You

599
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,760
still go to Vin Italy? We do. And is that still that. I mean, it

600
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,000
was second largest, probably now one of the largest wine shows in the world.

601
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,320
It's enormously large and you have to have a reason for going. We go

602
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,000
because, thanks to Vito, Italy has become a huge market for us.

603
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,920
And every wine specialist that works for us comes by to say hi.

604
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:41,230
They may not taste wines, but they come by to say hi. Yeah, that's great.

605
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:44,870
And you know, the ability to give your wine

606
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:48,590
specialist a hug maybe. I only see them once a year. And

607
00:37:48,590 --> 00:37:52,230
it's been the best part of in Italy is the

608
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:53,190
mortadella.

609
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:59,750
So was there a red in this group? And what's the story behind the imprint?

610
00:37:59,910 --> 00:38:03,350
Brand? Imprint was what I'd mentioned earlier was

611
00:38:03,350 --> 00:38:07,110
Elvis request for me to make a wine that's personality based.

612
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:10,930
Okay, so now would you like to try? Have you ever Tr Susu Manello?

613
00:38:11,970 --> 00:38:15,290
I can look it up, but it doesn't sound familiar. V, would you be so

614
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:18,850
kind? So the grape is S U su. S

615
00:38:18,850 --> 00:38:21,890
U S U

616
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:26,930
M A N. I E L L.

617
00:38:27,010 --> 00:38:30,450
Oh, I. I've tasted six. Okay.

618
00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:34,210
You're ahead of the curve. And none of them would have been on mono.

619
00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:37,410
And the last. Oh, just say 1. 20. 21.

620
00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:40,910
It's. It was from Pietra.

621
00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:44,590
Pietra was the winery.

622
00:38:49,470 --> 00:38:53,030
So, Claudia. So how long did it take to get your Italian? Like where she

623
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:56,790
didn't stop LAUGHING. All my work

624
00:38:56,790 --> 00:39:00,110
is in Italian. My guys don't speak English.

625
00:39:00,990 --> 00:39:04,350
So if you, if you want to work in the winery, you work in Italian.

626
00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:07,550
How long did it take for that? It was. It was gradual, it went in

627
00:39:07,550 --> 00:39:11,400
stages. But you. Necessity is a

628
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,760
great teacher. That's right. Yeah. You just do it. Right.

629
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,840
That's called the immersion method. Exactly.

630
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,559
Did they train you at Davis? You know, it's very academic. I know

631
00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:28,200
we have a niece who's at the Cornell Enology School. And

632
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,360
it makes me grin when I hear the stuff she's learning because

633
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,160
she ended up in Bordeaux on an internship that we helped her get in Chateau

634
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,960
Bailly. And she came back with the biggest grin on her face

635
00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:43,700
was. It was not the classroom, it was the real classroom.

636
00:39:44,660 --> 00:39:48,420
Let's take a 10,000 foot view on it and realize

637
00:39:48,420 --> 00:39:52,220
that the purpose of education, high education in the United States is

638
00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:55,980
to teach you to think. It's not to teach you which lever or

639
00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:59,700
which button to push. If you're prepared, if you have the basis,

640
00:40:00,340 --> 00:40:03,540
the practical aspects of what you do come to you

641
00:40:04,180 --> 00:40:07,830
with experience. Well, she told me when she

642
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:10,430
started, she says, uncle Paul, they want to put me in the vineyard. This is

643
00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:13,470
before she went to France. I said, well, honey, if you want to be a

644
00:40:13,470 --> 00:40:16,350
winemaker, you're going to be in the vineyard. She might as well start there.

645
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:20,830
She came back, she says, I loved the vineyard. That must be just

646
00:40:20,830 --> 00:40:24,270
something, a connection that's made. Not for everyone.

647
00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:28,790
It's connections made by a winemaker. It's not a connection, it's made by an

648
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:32,270
analogous. In Italy, we tend to have very few

649
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:35,930
winemakers. They all put on a white lab coat and they

650
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:39,610
do analysis all day long. Those of us who are

651
00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:42,290
winemakers live in the vineyards and

652
00:40:43,730 --> 00:40:47,410
we have a bond with our grapes and we understand them

653
00:40:47,410 --> 00:40:51,170
and they understand us, and it's the basis for communication.

654
00:40:51,810 --> 00:40:55,650
And that's what she'll develop very quickly. Tell

655
00:40:55,650 --> 00:40:58,290
us about Susan. 1. Susaniello

656
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,040
is still the rarest red grape in Puglia. It was born

657
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,840
as a component of Brindisi Dock to give. To give some

658
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,480
muscle to those blends of Negro Amaro and Melvisian Nano.

659
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,320
It's extremely dark, it's extremely tannic. It's very hard to work

660
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,960
with. You have to completely abandon the

661
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,800
paradigm of red wine making when you approach it. If

662
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,610
you want something that's interesting and. And we do

663
00:41:26,610 --> 00:41:30,330
has a backbone, that's for sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

664
00:41:31,050 --> 00:41:34,410
So as a blending grape, though, it probably adds a structure to

665
00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:38,650
it's. It's Extremely dark and extremely tannic. So it's a wonderful bl.

666
00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:41,730
It's what it was born for. As a blending component. It's a

667
00:41:41,730 --> 00:41:45,210
spontaneous cross between a table grape called

668
00:41:45,210 --> 00:41:48,770
Uva de Sagra and garganaga. A white grape,

669
00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:52,330
Garganica. Wow. Garganiga is very prolific. It's. It's

670
00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:56,210
present in a great many varietals. I do not agree.

671
00:41:57,810 --> 00:42:01,610
So it seems like there's a guy in la. In Kansas, who's

672
00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:05,010
propagated what would have been pre prohibition

673
00:42:05,490 --> 00:42:09,170
American varietals, even though they're not vinous conifera, they're making wine. Sure.

674
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:12,970
He's having. No, I mean, he's got. He started with 18 varietals,

675
00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:15,690
he's down to 14. Because he said, I can't make wine from four of it.

676
00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:19,490
Just. You can't drink it. Yes. And I said, but you have the problem

677
00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:23,250
of you have no track run, nothing to work from.

678
00:42:23,330 --> 00:42:27,150
No one's ever planted these grapes where you plant them, and you have every degree

679
00:42:27,150 --> 00:42:30,790
of complexity to try and figure it out. Like variables. The permutations

680
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:34,030
must be off the charts. These indigenous

681
00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:36,750
varietals from Puglia, they've

682
00:42:38,110 --> 00:42:41,870
pretty much worked with that. We understand them. You just talked about how unique this

683
00:42:41,870 --> 00:42:44,910
wine is. You have to throw away all the paradigms of winemaking because you started

684
00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:48,750
there. When did that idea sort of develop in you that you're going

685
00:42:48,750 --> 00:42:51,790
to have. To treat this differently instantly? You go into the vineyard, you try the

686
00:42:51,790 --> 00:42:54,790
grapes, and you go, what grapes talk to you? And they. And they say, if

687
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:58,280
you want me to be what you want me to be, then you need to

688
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,560
do something different. Is your wife jealous and you're talking to the grapes? No, I

689
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,720
don't talk to her during harvest, and she's used to it.

690
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,240
This is fabulous. Is it 100, Susan? 100%,

691
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,720
yes. Part of this is my vineyard. Part of this is something that was

692
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:16,560
planted for me by a very dear friend, a guy that I've been

693
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,160
working with for over 20 years. I asked him to

694
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,620
plant it, and he was a little resistant, and now he thanks me.

695
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:27,980
You know, it changed already in the glass. Oh, yeah. My wines are

696
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:31,460
handled so gently that they really like their

697
00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:35,300
permanence in a glass. They're really special. This

698
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:37,940
would have been great last night with that ribeye.

699
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:42,420
Okay, so the second group, the third group is the prima mano. Prima

700
00:43:42,420 --> 00:43:46,180
mano are our reserve style wines. The wines that are more

701
00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:49,030
intense. They are.

702
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:54,150
They are what we started to show what the potential is for puglia

703
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:58,510
and they really do hold up the mirror. Which one should we

704
00:43:58,510 --> 00:44:02,230
taste? There's a Negro Maro and a Primitivo, and

705
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:04,790
I'm proud of them both. What would you prefer? What do you guys want to

706
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:08,150
taste? They're two different varietals. And so these

707
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:11,750
brands developed, obviously, start with Amano first.

708
00:44:11,830 --> 00:44:15,190
Amano. And then you talk to your wife, and she wants. Prima mano was

709
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:18,690
a. Was something that she developed in our second

710
00:44:18,690 --> 00:44:22,410
harvest. So early on,

711
00:44:23,370 --> 00:44:25,770
and I was dead. Set against it,

712
00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:32,730
as I told you, the only thing that we could do

713
00:44:33,530 --> 00:44:37,130
was pay cash for these grapes to get them

714
00:44:37,210 --> 00:44:41,050
and pay a premium. So our harvest meant

715
00:44:41,050 --> 00:44:44,540
that we went to zero in the bank account. I mean, literally at the level

716
00:44:44,540 --> 00:44:48,300
of events. Was that stressful? I mean, obviously it is, but I mean,

717
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:52,140
no. You were confident you're coming out of this? I.

718
00:44:52,380 --> 00:44:55,180
That was the only thing we knew how to do. And

719
00:44:55,820 --> 00:44:59,460
wow, we were. We loved what we were doing. And fortunately, other

720
00:44:59,460 --> 00:45:02,540
people did as well. You want to try that, Gina? Go down to

721
00:45:03,580 --> 00:45:07,220
take it all down to zero. Invest in a couple containers and special

722
00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:10,380
flooring or something. They're in the flooring business.

723
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:15,780
We have. We're used to droughts. It's part of the nature of

724
00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:19,540
being in. In the south is a lack of water. We are having

725
00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:23,140
problems with. With, if you want to call it global

726
00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:26,979
warming. To me, it's more an incidence of UV radiation

727
00:45:26,979 --> 00:45:29,540
that has increased remarkably.

728
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:34,420
It's just there's an intensity of radiation that

729
00:45:35,460 --> 00:45:38,850
these plants have not evolved with, and they suffer for it.

730
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,000
I see it in my. In my orchard. I see it in my vineyards.

731
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,040
And you have to take measures to. To help

732
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,680
them. I have my vineyard are

733
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,600
small bush vines, the ancient bush vines that were the

734
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,040
highest quality when Elvie and I first came here. And

735
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,320
normally you would go in and leaf pull them. As I mentioned earlier on

736
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,680
this year, I looked at the incidence of the sun.

737
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,450
I said, I'm not leaf pulling you guys. You guys get a

738
00:46:09,450 --> 00:46:13,130
sun hat. So I left more foliage on, and as a

739
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:16,610
result, I got these incredibly intense wines. Just

740
00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:20,410
absolutely gorgeous. But as I said, if that's what

741
00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:24,050
nature deals, if that's the hand that you're

742
00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:27,570
dealt, it's our job to help them, to help them

743
00:46:27,570 --> 00:46:31,210
interpret the environment and give them a little bit of an advantage. Am I

744
00:46:31,210 --> 00:46:32,170
confusing you, Paul?

745
00:46:35,130 --> 00:46:38,930
I've been here for 28 years, and I'm. My LV and I are

746
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:42,570
the mother and father of the modern pian wines. But that doesn't mean

747
00:46:42,570 --> 00:46:46,370
that we're necessarily accepted it's much better to keep

748
00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:49,210
a low profile. We do what we want, and.

749
00:46:49,850 --> 00:46:52,810
No, it's not an industry that shares very well.

750
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:58,930
In certain regions, there is a

751
00:46:58,930 --> 00:47:02,330
communal space. Sicily is one. Sicily is very

752
00:47:02,330 --> 00:47:06,010
cooperative, but it was forced by their regional

753
00:47:06,010 --> 00:47:09,810
marketing. And they have to cooperate. In

754
00:47:09,810 --> 00:47:13,410
Puglia, they don't have to. And I wasn't born here, and

755
00:47:13,410 --> 00:47:14,890
they're very aware of it.

756
00:47:17,530 --> 00:47:21,330
It's a bit of a strange situation. If my growers,

757
00:47:21,330 --> 00:47:25,090
who I'm very fond of, don't see me for a couple of months, they'll call

758
00:47:25,090 --> 00:47:28,880
me and ask me to copy, and we go down and I'll drink a

759
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,040
coffee with them, and we start the small talk. And

760
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,480
you called me. Did you need something?

761
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,480
If they don't see you, if they can't touch you, it's very tactile as a

762
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,680
society. If they don't physically see you, they think you've escaped.

763
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,640
I don't know why they think you've gone. But there's no

764
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,880
pulley in the association of Vintners, or you get together and vote and

765
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:56,220
spend marketing money. Because that's a. That's an idea that

766
00:47:56,220 --> 00:47:59,940
brought up at the Armenian vine and Wine foundation, which is you need to

767
00:47:59,940 --> 00:48:03,140
come up with a methodology to support the region

768
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:06,420
worldwide. How are you going to tell the world that this wines exist?

769
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:11,060
Pulley is different. They're more further along. No, that's a correct approach.

770
00:48:11,540 --> 00:48:15,300
That's a mature approach to getting the message delivered. Work

771
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:18,580
together. Everybody rose in the same direction. Yes.

772
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:22,440
Puglia doesn't work that way. That's interesting.

773
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:26,760
This Negro Amaru is probably the most structured,

774
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,680
layered one I've ever tasted. Thank you, Paul. That comes from

775
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,280
your desire from the vineyard? Very much so. I mean, they're usually thinner,

776
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,200
more acidic, and sometimes fruit forward.

777
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,240
It's a deliberate technique to.

778
00:48:45,570 --> 00:48:48,970
To make a wine that's worthy of being called a reserve wine. And as you

779
00:48:48,970 --> 00:48:52,250
say, there's a layer of complexity, a layer of

780
00:48:52,250 --> 00:48:54,770
intensity there that is very deliberate.

781
00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:59,530
Obviously, there's a little bit of oak in here somewhere. No, no. Where is that

782
00:48:59,530 --> 00:49:03,250
coming from, that structure? It's coming from the vines

783
00:49:03,410 --> 00:49:06,690
and the way that we manipulate them as this, as they

784
00:49:06,690 --> 00:49:10,210
ripen. If

785
00:49:10,370 --> 00:49:14,140
you really love your vines and they

786
00:49:14,140 --> 00:49:17,940
sense it and you do things to help them produce this kind

787
00:49:17,940 --> 00:49:20,140
of intensity, they will do it for you.

788
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:25,980
There's a group in Sardinia that plays music.

789
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:30,460
Yes. Have you done that yet? We have

790
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:34,260
a friend who had studied that and was playing music at. What was

791
00:49:34,260 --> 00:49:37,670
it? 432 hertz. There's a. It's

792
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:40,990
basically the same kind of music that you, you would listen to when you're getting

793
00:49:40,990 --> 00:49:44,230
a massage. Yeah. There was not a control.

794
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:48,150
So I can't tell you scientifically the vineyards were very

795
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:51,390
beautiful, very, very good. I can't tell you if that was part of it or

796
00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:54,550
if it was just the fact that they, they cared. About what they were doing.

797
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:58,790
It could be a placebo effect. I've heard of it.

798
00:49:58,950 --> 00:50:02,630
Well, no, the experiment Sardinia was they played rock and roll to one set of

799
00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:06,470
vines, they played classical to the other and the classical grew toward the

800
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:10,280
speaker and the rock and roll grew away me so figure that one

801
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,120
just tell. Can you blame them and just tell them what they

802
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,880
told me and not tell. I support it. I. I

803
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,440
am a traditionalist. Our winery is fairly old and

804
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,880
the. The best system for. For storing wines is

805
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,560
resin line cement. Underground the wines

806
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,840
age better, longer and are much happier.

807
00:50:34,210 --> 00:50:37,970
Not amphora. No, concrete. Concrete with

808
00:50:37,970 --> 00:50:41,730
a resin with a food grade resin lining. And they. That is by far

809
00:50:41,730 --> 00:50:45,090
and away the most generous storage. It's. It's a lot of maintenance.

810
00:50:45,330 --> 00:50:48,770
But my, my guys are experts at going in and redoing them and

811
00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:52,850
so. So interesting when they redo

812
00:50:53,010 --> 00:50:56,730
your site. Every year you go in and you inspect them. There

813
00:50:56,730 --> 00:51:00,330
are times when you have cracks or, or something that needs to be

814
00:51:00,330 --> 00:51:04,050
adjusted. You go in and inspect them every year and every year

815
00:51:04,050 --> 00:51:07,860
my guys spend. Spent a month or so going through all the tanks

816
00:51:07,860 --> 00:51:11,700
and making sure that they're ready for. For us. So they're not eggs

817
00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:15,420
though. They're just concrete. They're concrete. Yeah. But they're angular. Oh

818
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:18,380
yeah. So they're, they're themselves are creating

819
00:51:19,820 --> 00:51:23,180
movement. What's in like an egg does where it's.

820
00:51:25,420 --> 00:51:29,220
I don't think I want to get into that. We'll get that. We'll

821
00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:33,000
skip that one. My guys work for me full

822
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,520
time and during harvest they're full time in the winery.

823
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,160
This time of the year they might be in the vineyard. We might be bottling

824
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,640
natural wines at home, we might be doing maintenance. But

825
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,760
we are the group. Could you imagine, could

826
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,320
you imagine bringing in somebody that doesn't know what they're doing and supervising?

827
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,080
It's easier to do it yourself. We've already had 50 minutes, almost an hour.

828
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,920
That's longer than usual. We can turn off the formal part of this conversation. It's

829
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,280
been amazing to hear your thought process and your passion really

830
00:52:02,660 --> 00:52:06,420
thing but we more glean from this conversation is that

831
00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:10,140
it just takes passion to do this. I wouldn't know how to do it

832
00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:13,580
any other way and have these kinds. Of results, you would have been a good

833
00:52:13,580 --> 00:52:17,060
doctor. Thank you.

834
00:52:17,060 --> 00:52:20,820
That's a compliment. Favorite

835
00:52:20,820 --> 00:52:24,660
doctor, Joe. Yeah. Well, thanks again for the time. It's a

836
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:25,700
pleasure, Paul. Cheers.