Beyond the Vines: Tony Biagi’s Journey Through Napa, To Kalon, and Winemaking Wisdom

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We're allowed to craft what we feel the best wine is from the terroir on

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the property. And so I really think that as a, as a winemaker, you have

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to do that. I think if you start chasing this or chasing that, you can

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get caught with your tail, you know, and so you have to craft what you

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feel is the best. Sit back and grab a glass.

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It's Wine Talks with Paul Kay.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are at an away game

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up in the Napa Valley about to have a conversation with Tony Biaggi. You know,

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I don't even. I don't. Every time I say it, somebody corrects me. To Colon.

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Tokelon. Yeah, to Colon. Again, I've heard it a million different

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ways. Of course, Tone or Tokalon. I think most of. Most of the Napa

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Valley people I've heard say tone, but I have a feeling back in the day

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it was supposed to be pronounced Tokalone. So, you know, have

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a listen to a show I just released. It was really fun because I had

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an intern from Cornell University. We

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got a stint in Au Chateau Bailly in Bordeaux, France.

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And she was on the podcast and she

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told of a 19 year old's perspective of going to France

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and explaining how she was indoctrinated to the vineyards

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and into the winery, into the French culture. And I was. It's a fascinating

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perspective on something like that. Really, really fun, but not why we're here.

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Okay. We're going to talk about Tom Biaggi

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and, you know, so much to talk about. We're up here in the Napa Valley

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and I'm reading a little bit about the history of this vineyard and it seems

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to be. Could be considered one of the most famous vineyards in the country.

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Yeah, I would say that, you know, Tocquellon and Martha's Vineyard would probably

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be the two, but Tocquelon's of course, taking the mantle as probably.

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I hate when we go back to France, but I think we have to. Here

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is the Grand Cru side of Napoleon. Why do you hate to go back to

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France? Well, no, I love France. No, no, I just think sometimes we get caught

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up in trying to compare and compare, compare rather than be our own thing.

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However, I do believe the Grand Cru system of ranking vineyards is there

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for a reason. I think to definitely would take that mantle. I wonder why they

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don't do that here. Is it. Is it a vintage association kind of issue or.

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I don't think so. I think it's very much that Our country is based on

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a capitalistic society where everybody can know if you want to plant Pinot Noir in

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Calistoga and make world class wine, go for it. No one's going to tell you

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what to do or the opportunity. I think it's also a way for

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France to protect wealth. Back in the day with, you know, the feudal lord, not

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the feudal lords, but the dukes and duchesses owned a lot of the stuff. And

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so, you know, our property is better than yours, so it's worth more money. I

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think that's an interesting perspective. So. But I've always had this romantic

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thing about the fact that they protect themselves, but the French love the factory. Any

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European loves the fact that America is this wide open book and

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you can do whatever you want in that industry. But then at the same time

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we lose some of our, I don't know, like they protect their

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butter and they protect their cheese and then their wines.

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And their wine business. They protect their wine business, subsidize it. I wonder if that's,

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in this day and age, a negative. If it's,

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if it's, you know, because there's such an issue with the industry right now and

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there's declining sales and all these different things going on with Gen Z and

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packaging, but I wonder if that, that control is actually

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stifling a little bit of creativity. I would think so at times. I think this

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is why a lot of them come here. I mean, there's a, there's a, there's

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a wealth of French knowledge here now in Napa Valley and Sonoma, you know,

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Philippe Malka, Benuet to name two or even, you know,

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yeah, cathiards over there and you know, the old four springs. So I

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think they love the opportunity to be an open book, to be able to craft

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whatever you'd like and do whatever you want. You might think you're crazy, but hey,

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do what you want, you know, So. I think we're all a little crazy. To

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get in this business at times. I think my parents thought I was, so I

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know that. So how did, how did that happen? Did you. Born and raised in

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San Mateo, California by Belmont, San Mateo. My parents were divorced, so I go back

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and forth and they were. My parents were super supportive growing up.

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Loved unconditionally. My mom said all you need to do is find a job with

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healthcare. So any moms out there will get that comment. So healthcare is very important.

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And I just knew I can never be behind a desk. I knew I can.

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I had to be outside. I went to Davis. Strangely Enough. I was

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recruited to wrestle and I want to be a marine biologist.

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I took a winemaking class with Ann Noble and I fell in love. Said, oh,

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I could do this. And my parents were collectors. By no means the collector

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in the way you would think. My stepfather collected Ridge.

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He loved Ridge Zinfandels and those wines and Ravenswood.

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My father made home wine and Lodi. It was

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ghastly stuff and awful stuff, but he enjoyed doing it and he enjoyed drinking

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wine. So it was always around the table and so it was always

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part of the lifestyle there. But it was by no means with my dad cracking

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82 Latour for dinner, that was not the case. But he knew what the finer

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things were, especially my stepdad. So he was really excited for me

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to go into the business. That's an interesting thought though. The Finer

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Things. And I'm looking at that book over there, the Greatest wines

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to Collect. And I also watched a movie recently, somebody sent me

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of the greatest collection in the world. Simple Guy just

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got the bugs early on. And now considered the greatest collection of the world. The

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value of the collection. And I wonder what the. And I just got inspired looking

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at this book. Is that just because us or do you think that everybody

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has the opportunity to get that inspiration when they have the proper glass of wine

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that you just go whoa? I think it exists in

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any medium, whether it be food. People, you know, have a bite of

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three star Michelin food and then they have to see every three star Michelin restaurant

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in the world. Yes. Music, you know, I mean.

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Exactly. Or music. Music or sound systems. I mean,

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I just like the car on my car radio. But people have Macintosh systems that

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are just to start a 50, $70,000 systems. I think wine plays

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into that. And I don't know if it's the finer things in life, but just

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tasting what is the best of the best, understanding that and

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understanding what goes into it. And I think it touches back with Tokelon and the

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fact that when you have wine from a site, a place, you can say

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this bottle's from that place. I think Burgundy does that the best, of

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course. And I think California has sort of become the Burgundianization of such

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of valley. Everybody makes a single vineyard or something. And I feel that

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the place. I think people really love the place now more than ever. I think

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with social media sort of dominating everything, people really want to

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touch and feel place. Well, to

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Cologne has so much history

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and maybe when it comes to representing a sense of time and

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place, it that just takes time to Understand it here. You are

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rather newcomer to the vineyard. How did you. Yeah. Go about trying

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to understand what this vineyard does? I think I'm still learning. I

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don't think. I don't think you ever know. I mean, for other places, you know,

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before I came there, I was at Plumpjack for 10 years. And that's an old

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famous vineyard called the McWilliams Vineyard. And I felt not into four or five

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vintages in did I even understand how the property kind of worked. And even with

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some client, other clients I have now, I just made a decision this year

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to do something completely different. Talking to my assistant, going, you know, and he agreed.

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He goes, I've always looked at it this way. Maybe I should look at it

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that way. And I think at the people that have come before me at

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Toquelan, you know, the people from the Robert Mondavi winery,

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You know, there would be Robert himself or Tim Mondavi, Jean Viev Johansson,

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who's still there, by the way. I mean, she still comes by and I get

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to ask her questions. We butt heads all the time, very lovingly,

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but, you know, philosophical. Philosophically, yeah. No, but she knows the

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property. I'll ask her a question, goes, oh, yeah, I remember walking that in 89.

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And that vineyard was very much like this, you know, like, wow, okay, That's. That's

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a wealth of knowledge you can only accumulate over time. I think you'll understand this.

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I mean, if you have children, you'll get it. If you don't, I think people

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out there with children will get it. You know, it's like, I'm not smarter than

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you. I'm just older than you. I've seen more things. So

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I really think that's the case. I mean, and not. But also to understand who's

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walked the property before you is really, really pretty impressive. So how true

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is that? Right? I mean, that's a really interesting point. Experience

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in life, whether you're a parent telling your kids or a

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winemaker, it takes time. And I. I do a lot with the

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Armenian vineyards, Armenian wine trade, trying to establish a position.

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And I've told people, man, what they've done in the short amount of

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time since they were free because the wine industry was

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stifled by the Soviets is amazing. But they have a long

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way to go to understand what a vineyard is going to be able to do.

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Yeah, absolutely. I think what we have here,

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you can reflect on that experience from these people that were there already.

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Absolutely. I can definitely Genevieve, who's there, and I can even, you know, Luckily, I'm

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friends with Tim Mondavi outside. Or I can ask him questions. Hey, when. You know,

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when your dad or you are looking at this and you're setting it up, because

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the vineyard now was originally set up by the Mondavi for Tim Mondavi

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and that last company. Why were you thinking this? Why were you thinking that? And

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Jean, Vivienne, what were you thinking? Just to get the perspective. Now, I'm dealing

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with their thought process. I'm dealing with the results of that thought process.

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So I really feel that being able to talk with them and ask them

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questions, sometimes they're like, you know, I thought this, and I was way off base.

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Or sometimes you hit it out of the park with your idea. That is what

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it is. We're still learning over here, you know, And I. And I think, you

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know, you look at Burgundy or you look at Bordeaux and their systems, you know,

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it makes sense why the first growths were the first growth, the uplifted rock and

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pebbles here. We're still trying to figure it out. I mean, I was blessed to

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work with Dan Duckhorn right out of college, and he always pointed to the alluvial

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fans of Napa Valley, of where the best vineyard should lie. And

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Toquen's in an alluvial fan. So Dan was right, you know,

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so. So do you think that your perspective. Because this is important,

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particularly now in today's marketplace with the Gen Z's drinking particularly, they don't want to

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drink what their parents drank. They don't collect all the different issues. We don't. We

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go on forever on that conversation. We want to, but we won't. But the.

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The idea that the perspective

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has to be contemporized. Now, I've heard two schools of thought when I do this

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podcast. I was with Monsieur Clouet of Cheval Blanc, and

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he's like, we don't look at the consumer. We

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just produced what this vineyard's gonna produce. And

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given that thought, and I had this. I floated this to him, and he agreed

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with me, which was, there's never a bad vintage, because if

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vintage is true to its environment, then it's a

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good vintage. It may not taste the same as the one previous or the one

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after, but if it's true to the weather conditions, the soil, and everything

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that was presented in the vineyard that year, it's a. It's a proper

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vintage. Yeah, but we have a dynamic here. We have consumers. We have to

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decide, you know, so is your perspective

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different than your predecessors? And is that based on. Do you

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think the contemporization of wine in the industry we have to deal with

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because we have to sell stuff. That's our job. I think

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what I've been blessed with here at Tokalon is that the ownership group, which of

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course is a publicly traded company, but the management group, I should speak one step

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down, allows us to craft the best

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wines from the property in our beliefs of what that should be.

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I don't think they've ever come to us and said, you need to do this,

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you need to do that. I've never been told once to do any of that.

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So interesting. Been very good most all, you know, whether it took long or any

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of my clients are really about working together, you know, now I talk to the

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ownership, I talk to the, my bosses, well and then other

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companies, the owners quite a bit. And we have a lot of connection with that

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way. But in the end it's a lot. We're allowed to craft the

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best wines. What we feel the best wine is from the terroir on the property.

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And so I really think that as a winemaker you have to do that. I

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think if you start chasing this or chasing that, you can get, you can get

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caught with your tail, you know, and so you have to craft what you

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feel is the best. So. So that aligns itself with that

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traditional thinking, which is we're going to produce the best

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expression of what it is. Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think with Tokalon Vineyard company, they've allowed me to say, you know, there's

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no case. They've never make me, they don't need cases, they want to make the

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best wine possible. So some years it's going to be small. I mean, in a

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tough year, you know, we would probably make less wine. And

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in a world class vintage, if we can craft, we will. It's about the quality

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and the wine in the moment. It's not about, hey, we need X cases

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every year. So they very good to me about that. What does.

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I love this conversation because it's, it's what I believe. It's the Roman. It's

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not the romantic part, but it's the honest part. And wine.

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I remember reading an article years ago from a guy saying the problem with wine

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is they don't listen to the consumer. And they don't. And I'm like, but I

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don't think that's what wine is. We need those

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consumer versions, the Josh's and the Apothec reds on the shelf

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for the people that come and taste. And then all of a sudden Realize there's

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something like to cologne on the shelf

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also. Right. But the contemporary thinking is,

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what is innovation? We need to innovate. Does that mean anything to you? Innovation in

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the wine world, is that sort of a vineyard innovation, packaging

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innovation, marketing? Well, I think the funniest thing about innovation,

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it's a great question, but I think innovation is the

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innovation that allows us to go back to tradition. You know, what. What are the

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tool. What are the tools you're giving me so I can make wines traditionally? Yes.

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You know, like, that's how I want to look at. Look at innovation, you know,

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and so forth. That's clever. I like it. You know, and because there are so

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many more tools out there. And I, you know, Bob Levy was a mentor of

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mine from Harlan, and he said the best winemaker has the most. Most. The best

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winemaker has the biggest quiver with the most arrows. Right. And that's experience. And it's

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what tools you have and how can you use this tool to fix these issues?

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You might come up. No vintage is perfect. I mean, you know, the best vintages,

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of course, are other vintage. The head pops up here, you know, oh,

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what's that? Sometimes bigger game of whack a mole. Sometimes

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it's a lesser game of whack a mole. And it is a natural beverage. I

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mean, if you're making natural beverages, I mean, when I say natural, we're growing the

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grapes organically out of Tokalon and we're fermenting them. You know, we're not using

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it. We may use a little nutrient. We do use commercial yeast. And I can

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go into a deeper issue, why I would do that at low volumes, but other

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than that, Malolactic is native. And then we're going to try to rack them three

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times and bottle them. We're not doing anything out

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of the ordinary. So. So those. Those lessons,

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having been a duckhorn Cade, Plump Jack. Yeah.

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Hourglass. Which one of my favorites. I'm still there. Yeah, I'm still there. Are you

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really? Absolutely. Yeah. So we had a bottle at Rheinfeld the

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other day. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. You know, Jeff Smith had been really good to

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me and he allowed me to do this because I was working at PlumpJack and

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I was looking for my next. Next opportunity. And Jeff was very kind to say,

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hey, why don't you come work for me? And I was replacing Bob Foley

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and you can take. You can work with some other people and start your little

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brand yourself. And so that's, of course, now, many years later, has allowed

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me to Work with Ton vineyard company, which is very exciting for me. So that's

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really cool. Yeah. So those lessons, like,

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you're in a different part of the Napa Valley when you work at these different

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places, you're under the tutelage of a different organization.

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Yeah. Both management and philosophical. Does that

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bring a certain amount of roundness to the next project that you're

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working on? I think the ability to see more, have. Have it open,

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you know, your lens is so much wider. I think you see a lot of

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things. You go, oh, that might work here. Maybe it won't work here this vintage,

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but maybe next vintage. I've learned something that might help me. And again, it's about

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adding arrows to your quiver. You know, like, let's try this. I saw this over

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here because I do, you know, I do some. Do some work in. I did

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some work in Paso Robles. I did some work. I still work in Santa Barbara

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a little bit with some consulting with a client down there, and I do some

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work in Sonoma. So, you know, different fruit sometimes brings up different

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ideas. And so. But then how. How can I implement those ideas? You know, maybe

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waiting to pick maybe the maceration techniques, maybe, you know, the

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oak choices all sort of open your mind a little bit more. I mean, I

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think this business, it's like the chef, you know, the more wine you can taste,

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the more ideas you can see. And I always tell young winemakers, interns,

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hey, work with me for this year. Take what you like,

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that I've done, and what you hate, throw it away. But there's going to be

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three or four things that you're going to learn from this, and then, you know,

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taking the next step. I interviewed with Tony Soder once, and, I mean, Tony's a

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legend here in Napa Valley. I mean, he's, to me, you know, as cool as

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it gets. And he said, work like nine and go work

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nine harvests in a row. And of course, my dad, my stepdad's like,

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absolutely not. You need a job. You know, So I couldn't do it. I wish

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I could. But his idea was. I now understand what he was saying is, go

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see as much as you can see, especially when you're young in this business, because

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you don't have children, you don't know, you don't have a mortgage payment. You can

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do that, you can travel. And this is what's great. You know, I know we

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were talking about my girlfriend, Katie Linda. Her son is doing that right now, and

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he's traveling all over the world. He's been in New Zealand, South Africa. You know,

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he's working with Staglin right now and these great companies and he's seeing so much.

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And I'm jealous, you know, 50 years. Old, I'm super jealous. Like, I just

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came to work in Napa and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time there.

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Of course, to see the world because of a job is pretty cool.

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Well, that's a, that's another. I bring that up quite frequently because there are

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many people that go do two vintages a year. They go to South America, they

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go southern hemisphere, they do a vintage there, they come back and do one up

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in the northern hemisphere. And I think you'd agree

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with this. Obviously you, if, if you work that same vineyard for 20

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years, if you work at to a cologne for

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20 years, you have a certain perspective on that vineyard, almost every

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vine, practically. You're going to know and you're going to create a different

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wine than somebody that's doing what, what Katie's son's doing,

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traveling the world, working in different vineyards, getting a different perspective with a

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worldwide perspective. They're going to come back with a different opinion of what this vineyard

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is. And one's not better than the other. It's just perhaps it might

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be better, it might be worse, who knows? And I think, but I think what

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he's gaining is knowledge that in 20 years working with his family's vineyards, he'll have

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all this knowledge from the beginning to look at his vineyards maybe a little differently

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than the winemaker does right now. So I just, I'm, I'm, I'm

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kind of looking back on my, you know, there's no regrets. But I say I

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wish I would have done that. You know, do I agree with. Yeah, So

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I really wish I would have seen something. This is when, when I was

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talking at the beginning about this young girl that went to Chateau Bailly,

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my first conversation with her as a 19 year old, she says, I don't want

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to work in the vintage, you know, in the vineyard. Uncle Paul. And she's at

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Cornell eonology school. I'm like, well, if you don't want to work at the vintage

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girl, you're going to, you might as well get out now because you're going to

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be in the vineyard. Well, what was the first thing they did? They put her

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in the vineyard. Yeah. And now she's like, I love the vineyard. So there must

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be something very cerebral about that. Well, yeah, it's funny, you know, walking Tokelon

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and walking Anyway, but really, Token, because of the history and the energy of that

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property, the vineyards do have an energy to them, and

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you can feel it at times, sometimes more than others. I definite

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think, you know, Toklan in the morning when it's foggy, is pretty beautiful. I don't

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think there's many other places in the world that's like it. Just the vista that

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you're looking out east from the vineyards all the way back against the

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Himayacamas. Yes. It's just a stunning piece of dirt. You can feel the energy

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there. And so there's a reason. I mean, it means. I think token

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means beautiful place. I mean, it is so. But vineyards in general,

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maybe it's the water underneath them, maybe just the roots. They're

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very magical places to be in wine. So very

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calm at times, too. Maybe that's the difference. Maybe that's the reason.

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Wine, because I never get a definition as impossible to define. Why?

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What's so special about this product and what's so interesting about it? And why does

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it connect us to the soul? And that energy you're talking about coming from the

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vineyard might be the answer. That wherever that energy is coming from and

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whatever you believe that energy is coming from is what differentiates

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the beverage and how it affects the human soul.

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It's a connection. It creates all kinds of

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energy. When you share. I would agree. I think also what people forget at times

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is it's vintage dated. And so when

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you're having that bottle of wine at your favorite restaurant and you read

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that vintage and remember, wine's usually sold Sauvignon Blanc. Of

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course, white wines come to market much quicker, but great white red wines are often

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aged. And so you're seeing something that's five or six years old, and I

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feel it brings you back to that moment at time. It does. To me especially,

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I could tell you every vintage and what it was like, what was going on

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in my life. You know, the best of the best and the worst of the

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worst are all sort of marked by a vintage and that number.

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And I think, anybody, you know, oh, 2007, oh, yeah, this was happening.

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2004, oh, my daughter was born. And then you start thinking about it, and I

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think that metaphysicalness of it, like opening the mind to that date

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and then having that liquid do that, and then maybe drinking a

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little bit, imbibing too much and maybe getting a little more emotional about that. But

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I really think very few things in our heart, our. In. In our

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world, our vintage data that we consume, you know, I Mean, yeah,

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that's true. Nothing else. They use up use updates, you

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know, best buy. But you don't ever, you know, they don't say drink buy on

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our wines. It's basically all right, that 1975 is a really

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enjoyable bottle of wine, you know, So I think that. And then

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that it comes from nature, It's a natural product. Yeah. And it comes

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from a vintage date, I think are the two most powerful things. I think that's

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it. I didn't even think about that thought process because I, when I was in

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the retail side of things all these years, people would say, and they would

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do it too late. And that would be, I need a bottle of 2004

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for my daughter's when she was born. And I want to find. That's my daughter's

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birth year. And I have, I've been collecting them. So it's so funny. So they

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wait till it's 20, 25 and go, I need a bottle, you know, 21 year

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old bottle. I'm like, well, I don't know, you know, it's a little hard to

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find, but if you thought about it up front. But why? The question is, why

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do we do that? Why? Like, what is it that we try to preserve

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when we buy a bottle of wine of a birth year or

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a wedding year? Like, I used, I bought 86, I got married in 86. I

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bought the Charles Krug 86 Winston Cuvee

363
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or something. And it meant something. It's all gone now.

364
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But I bought six bottles and it meant something every time

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I opened it. And you don't, like you said, you don't do that with a

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Best Buy date, you know. Yeah, Jack Daniels,

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Heineken. None of that occurs like that. So do you fight

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then? Do you fight this Napa,

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you know, it has settled on a style that people appreciate it and we need

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the people to understand those styles. And I won't name any brands, but

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there's that opulent, fruit forward little high RS

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type wine that represents

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currently, unfortunately, sort of a default style of the

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Napa Valley. Do you fight that or you just. We, we appreciate

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the fact that they exist because it brings people to the table. I

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think you have to look at this. Your second idea is how you have to

377
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look at it that brings people to the table. I focus on what I can

378
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do and make the best wines possible, you know, using the tools that you were

379
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saying, the, you know, the moving forward of

380
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mechanization or just having better ideas of how to do things, but trying to go

381
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back to the naturalist wines possible. Yeah, you know, very.

382
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Additions, just sulfur, other than sulfur, and then bottling without filtration.

383
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That's the goal. There's no nevers. I think

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the. I think generally I would like to be. Yeah. I mean, but so never

385
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and always. I mean, I also don't want to sell something to the consumer that

386
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might be spoiling the bottle. So we're looking at that, and we have to be

387
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careful of that, I think. Oh, is it. It's where philosophy meets

388
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incompetence, you know. Yes. Philosophically, I want to do this, but I don't

389
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know what's going to happen if I do it, so I'm going to do it

390
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anyway. And that, that gets pretty dangerous pretty quickly.

391
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You know, I've had, over the years. There's

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one biodynamic, actually, it's very funny because we're talking about the vineyard a little bit,

393
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but it's a biodynamic from Sardinia, I think. And these guys

394
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play music in the vineyard, you know, and they had done this experiment where they

395
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put rock and roll in a vineyard and they put, you know, all

396
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this stuff. I suppose there's. You talk about the energy in the vineyard. I suppose

397
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there's possible, yeah. I mean, if you look at Le Flev. I mean, La Flev

398
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is biodynamic in the vineyard, and they make their wines more traditionally in the

399
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cellar. But I think it really does start in the VI and how you handle

400
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things, which is really exciting about Tokalon. I mean, you know, they're trying to. Taking

401
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:36,260
all the, all the acreage from Mandavi's Tokalon organic, you know, certified organic. Well,

402
00:23:36,260 --> 00:23:39,940
weren't we always organic? I mean, I mean, I mean, up until a

403
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certain point when pesticides and sexicides and herbicides became a thing. Yeah, I think,

404
00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:46,660
I think they always did what was. You know, I think if they could do

405
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:50,420
it, they would. We're. Now we're asking the questions. Why would you. I think

406
00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:53,220
that's more than ever. Look, I started in the, in the 90s, and it was

407
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already a push to organics. But I did hear the older stories of no

408
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bugs in the vineyard. Never saw a bug in the vineyard. You know, smudge pots

409
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burning. Winter, you couldn't see up valley because it was so, so, so smoky and

410
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all these different things. And I think that's changed quite a bit here. And so

411
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I'm really proud that we're, that they're, that we're doing that here. No, I, I.

412
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,880
Look, I think in general, particularly with Sort of the movement, the political movement

413
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towards healthier eating. This is sort of healthier drinking. I think it makes

414
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a ton of sense that the vineyard's not, you know, doused and stuff. And

415
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,280
I. There's a lot of books about how we've destroyed our wheat

416
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farms and through all kinds of reasons, and now we're going back. I just think

417
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,030
it's interesting that we've created this problem

418
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:36,990
of insecticides, herbicides and pesticides and the diseases and the things that

419
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come from it. And now we're allowing ourselves and patting ourselves on the back for

420
00:24:40,510 --> 00:24:44,070
going back to what it was before. Well, again, I think we have to pat

421
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:46,830
ourselves in the backs. We are trying to make change, and change is hard, you

422
00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:49,630
know, and so, I mean, a pat on the back might be maybe a little

423
00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:52,870
too crazy to take the victory lap, but in the same instance, I'm really,

424
00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:55,830
I really feel proud that, hey, you know, at least maybe we're the first generation

425
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:59,150
to do that. I think it's great. And the generation above us to start moving

426
00:24:59,150 --> 00:25:02,830
back to camp, we. We can. We coexist, you know, and with

427
00:25:02,830 --> 00:25:06,670
regenerative farming and so forth. Well, they, you know, they talk about that. You

428
00:25:06,670 --> 00:25:09,990
know, in the earlier days of organic farming, I may say 20 years ago,

429
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:14,710
the yields were lower. You were. It wasn't guaranteeing you're getting a better product. You

430
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:17,630
were just getting organic. You weren't. And that was the problem. That's what I think

431
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:20,590
soured a lot of people. There was a couple wineries, and I won't name names

432
00:25:20,590 --> 00:25:23,430
because they don't probably want to be known, but they were organic in the vineyard,

433
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:26,320
but they didn't want to be known for those organics because it was. Was who.

434
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,760
You know, there was other wineries that had the, the stigma of organic and bad.

435
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,440
Yeah, organic meant bad. And I don't, you know, that's why I think someone like

436
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,200
Le Flev, who does biodynamically in the vineyard, farms biodynamically,

437
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,640
but then crafts wonderful wines. And I know Dalavala is doing a lot of

438
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,560
biodynamic things and they make world class Cabernet now. So you can do both.

439
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,800
Whereas I think in the 70s and 80s, I think it was, you can't do

440
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,560
both. Right. So that was, that was kind of bad. So. Well, we

441
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,290
did, you know, there's a lot of movement for food too, and, and

442
00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:59,090
there's an energy when it comes to wines and food, like we talked

443
00:25:59,090 --> 00:26:02,210
about earlier in the vineyard, that come from seasonal

444
00:26:02,610 --> 00:26:05,010
food. I just thought of this, the other day, I was thinking, like, oh, my

445
00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:08,730
gosh. Because we. We. My daughter just came from a town called

446
00:26:08,730 --> 00:26:11,970
Potsdam, New York, which is. You don't want to go there.

447
00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:15,530
But the coolest thing about it is you go to the farm and you buy

448
00:26:15,530 --> 00:26:18,690
your vegetables, you go to the dairy and you get your milk and you buy

449
00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:22,490
your meat from the. The. From the butcher, from the cattle ranch.

450
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:27,010
Well, that's as seasonal as it gets, 100%. And there's a. There's a. There

451
00:26:27,010 --> 00:26:30,490
is a certain value, huge value to that nutritionally

452
00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:34,250
and I think to the human cycle. You're also getting out,

453
00:26:34,570 --> 00:26:37,770
you know, where you can. Your daughter can just stay at home and order all

454
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:41,250
of her groceries, you know, online and deliver it. But you're getting out, you're talking

455
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:44,050
to people, you're talking to the vendors. You're. Hey, what's going on? How's it looking

456
00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:47,090
out there? Oh, whoa. The cow's not happy right now, you know, Right. Or the

457
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:49,520
butcher. Hey, I don't really like this. Maybe go to this cut of meat or,

458
00:26:49,670 --> 00:26:52,830
Or. Or the vegetable. Yeah, I'm sorry. We had a bad run on strawberry this

459
00:26:52,830 --> 00:26:55,550
year. You know, in the springtime was really weird. We'd have a lot of good

460
00:26:55,550 --> 00:26:59,310
strawberries, and the garlic was weird. I mean, just funny. You see things. So

461
00:26:59,310 --> 00:27:02,310
the more you're out there, the more you see. Oh, sorry. It was super late.

462
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:05,629
We had heat during the flowering of these certain peppers, and so we had on

463
00:27:05,629 --> 00:27:08,910
peppers for another three weeks. And it's just funny to be able to talk to

464
00:27:08,910 --> 00:27:12,150
people, to understand how the weather and the climate affects us every day. But I

465
00:27:12,150 --> 00:27:15,150
think when you sit in your home in front of a computer and just hit

466
00:27:15,150 --> 00:27:18,920
buttons, you know, you're. You're not even around that. And I think it's funny,

467
00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:22,590
right? I didn't even think of that. It's a really good point, but isn't

468
00:27:22,590 --> 00:27:26,230
wine the ultimate seasonal product, a vintage wine? It is.

469
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:29,270
And I, you know, I often tell people the hardest, you know, we. We compare

470
00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:32,870
our business to the restaurant business. You know, we

471
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:36,550
are. We are overly reliant in a great way on Hispanic

472
00:27:36,550 --> 00:27:40,310
culture, which is a restaurant business in California as well. So, you know, you

473
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:43,350
have that and you have how hard it is to do. The difference is they

474
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:46,430
can cook that pork chop every night, 15 times a night. We get one

475
00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:50,350
chance with grapes to do it. Well. Yeah. You know, and then next you have

476
00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:53,430
to wait to next thing. Oh, God, I should have done this. Yeah. But then

477
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:57,070
next year is completely different. Then you know, it's kind of like, you know, like

478
00:27:57,070 --> 00:28:00,390
I want to, I want to play dice, I want to play craps. But then

479
00:28:00,390 --> 00:28:03,390
next year you're playing blackjack because the weather's completely different.

480
00:28:04,110 --> 00:28:07,950
So it's just, you know, I tell people I get 30 or 40 chances

481
00:28:07,950 --> 00:28:11,230
in my life to do it right and do it well. You know, luckily I

482
00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:13,910
do work with some other clients, so I get to touch more stuff. But for

483
00:28:13,910 --> 00:28:16,700
the most part part, you just spent a year. You know, when you lose a

484
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:20,460
year, like 20, 20, the fires where, you know, almost all my clients for

485
00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:24,060
the most part did not make wine. You almost lost a whole event. Just kind

486
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:26,420
of like, you know, in that way, being a professional athlete, when you go down

487
00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:30,100
with an injury, you lost a year, it's just gone. And you're not guaranteed

488
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:33,780
many more of them. So that's interesting. You know,

489
00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:37,180
there's, I brought this up before and I think you just mentioned it and you,

490
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:40,860
you, you live the reality of it that, yeah, 30 to 40 vintages is

491
00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:44,610
probably a career year period. It is 100%. Yeah. And that doesn't seem

492
00:28:44,610 --> 00:28:48,210
like a whole lot, you know, for a lifetime, because it is only once a

493
00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:51,810
year. It is. And you, you know, there's a lot of pressure there not to

494
00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:54,930
make any mistakes. You know, there is. And I think, you know, especially working with

495
00:28:54,930 --> 00:28:58,050
Toquelon, I mean, you know, you have these world class grapes coming at you almost

496
00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:01,210
every year. You know, you're getting the best, you're getting the best ingredients. Like working

497
00:29:01,210 --> 00:29:05,010
at a three star Michelin restaurant. Everything you buy there is going to

498
00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:07,930
be world class, the best suppliers, the best everything. I think that's kind of what

499
00:29:07,930 --> 00:29:11,330
Tokalon is, is that this is best fruit coming at you and you better make

500
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:14,380
the best wines. Now what's the, the what's best that's in the eye of the

501
00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:18,220
beholder. But in my mind, did I craft the best wine possible from

502
00:29:18,220 --> 00:29:21,860
what I saw and from what the vintage is? And I feel great about that.

503
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:25,500
That's kind of all you can, because like I said, what you could, I can

504
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,620
guarantee if we were went out for a wine list right now, you'd probably pick

505
00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:32,460
something completely different than me. We would both agree on whatever we picked

506
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:35,820
that we enjoyed, but we would have probably gone somewhere completely different. That's the love

507
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:39,630
of wine. Right? So, so let's go to the business side of

508
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:43,150
this, the Tokellon hierarchy of

509
00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:44,510
management.

510
00:29:48,030 --> 00:29:51,350
Do you meet like this is going to move into the distribution side of things.

511
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:55,150
And the way DTC works and all the problems we have in America with selling

512
00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:58,950
alcohol. But when it comes to Tokelan, what

513
00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:01,550
is the conversation like in the boardroom? What do we talk about?

514
00:30:02,670 --> 00:30:05,070
I think they. I mean, I don't really know because I've never been in the

515
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:08,750
boardroom, so I can't. No, no, no, no. That says a lot right

516
00:30:08,750 --> 00:30:12,490
there. Allow us. They empower, you know,

517
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:17,570
Sam Glazer, who's the, who oversees the wine program in San Martin, to really

518
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:21,130
let us do our thing and let us be. You know, they said a lot.

519
00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:24,890
They've been very hands off. I mean, there are some. There are some small family

520
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:28,290
wineries where the owner sits next to you every day and make sure you do

521
00:30:28,290 --> 00:30:31,970
everything right. So being. The fact that they've empowered us to make the best wines

522
00:30:31,970 --> 00:30:35,810
possible is super. That's. I mean, that's the best form of leadership you can have.

523
00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:38,940
That's amazing, empowering. So, so. But I think if you were. And I'm not going

524
00:30:38,940 --> 00:30:42,420
to put words into their mouth, but I think they know that they own the

525
00:30:42,420 --> 00:30:45,900
best, arguably, if not the best piece of property in

526
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:49,340
California wine business. If not the Americans, you know, that's amazing.

527
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:53,340
They know what they have. Yeah. But that takes a lot of discipline

528
00:30:53,419 --> 00:30:57,140
for the. Particularly in today's world of marketing and all the issues

529
00:30:57,140 --> 00:31:00,700
that are coming down the pike here and this drop in consumption.

530
00:31:00,780 --> 00:31:04,350
I mean, I was talking to Violet Gergis. She, I think she said

531
00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:07,910
the taste room traffic goes down 30%. You know, that's a

532
00:31:07,910 --> 00:31:11,550
substantial amount of traffic to ignore. Right.

533
00:31:11,550 --> 00:31:15,310
And here they are at your place saying,

534
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:18,670
we're still. We're going to hold the line. We're going to. We're going to let

535
00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:21,310
the team do what they need to do. Well, not only that, there's. If you

536
00:31:21,310 --> 00:31:24,230
go to Mandavi, right now, they're reinvesting in the tasting room. They're leaving the arch

537
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:27,590
in the tower. Of course, they redid it all, but then adding new tasting rooms,

538
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:31,230
they really believe in the long term viability and success. I noticed the construction

539
00:31:31,230 --> 00:31:34,110
fence on the highway. Yeah, yeah. No, it's going to be beautiful. And hopefully you

540
00:31:34,110 --> 00:31:37,770
can come back to the launch of it. It's going to be really exciting. So

541
00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:41,490
they're investing long term in it. They believe in it long term. So, you know,

542
00:31:41,490 --> 00:31:44,730
that's interesting because Robert Madhavi, I saw the pictures out in front here when we

543
00:31:44,730 --> 00:31:48,490
were at the arch here down in Napa Valley downtown. I did not know this

544
00:31:48,490 --> 00:31:52,290
building existed. Been by here a thousand times. I never noticed it, but there's pictures

545
00:31:52,290 --> 00:31:55,810
of Robert Mondavi out there, and he was

546
00:31:55,810 --> 00:31:59,650
considered the. The. The flag waiver, the, you

547
00:31:59,650 --> 00:32:03,300
know, the inspiration behind and putting Napa Valley on the map besides the

548
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,100
judgment of Paris and all these other things that occurred. But the guy that went

549
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:09,220
out and waved the flag, who got on the plane, who went down to Southern

550
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:12,980
California, spoke at my dad's Les Amie Divan meetings to

551
00:32:12,980 --> 00:32:16,700
make this happen because he believed in what was going on here.

552
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:20,340
Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, it's an honor to work with these grapes and the

553
00:32:20,340 --> 00:32:23,740
grapes that, you know, in 66 his family had and working with them and,

554
00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:27,900
you know, I got a chance to meet him three times and oh, yeah,

555
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:31,650
he. He was super inclusive. I mean, super nice. He sat next to us from

556
00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:35,410
Mustards, of all places and started asking us questions. And when he found

557
00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:38,810
out that we were in the wine business, started giving us a hard time about

558
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:42,490
stuff. And I mean, what can you say it

559
00:32:42,730 --> 00:32:46,370
hasn't been written already about him? He's just a legend. Without him, we're probably

560
00:32:46,370 --> 00:32:49,570
30 years behind the curve. I mean, his dreaming and his

561
00:32:49,570 --> 00:32:53,170
tenacity and his focus, his vision. I was talking to

562
00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:56,970
George Tabor, the guy that showed up at the Judgment of Paris. He was on

563
00:32:56,970 --> 00:33:00,290
the show a couple years ago and he said, yeah, maybe

564
00:33:00,290 --> 00:33:04,050
California would have become. It wasn't for my article

565
00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:08,330
and that whole Judgment of Paris, maybe it took. It would take 10 more

566
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:11,970
years. And I don't know how you make that prediction because

567
00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:15,970
it took a worldwide. Maybe

568
00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:19,730
Robert's job would have been a little tougher to get on the planes and fly

569
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:22,770
to SoCal and fly to the east coast and wave the flag in the Napa

570
00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:26,370
Valley. But certainly now the world, the wines are world

571
00:33:26,370 --> 00:33:30,170
class and they compete all. Over the world, 100%. I

572
00:33:30,170 --> 00:33:33,470
mean, sometimes win. It's. You know, I don't think he ever wanted to be the

573
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:36,190
best. I wanted to compete. I think if you. I think if you're in this

574
00:33:36,190 --> 00:33:39,390
business, you learn that everybody's taste is personal.

575
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:43,350
I always used to jokingly say, you know, I don't want to come in first

576
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:45,990
in any blind taste. I want to come in last. I want to compete. Yeah.

577
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:49,310
And I want to, you know, I feel that's pretty good place to be because

578
00:33:49,310 --> 00:33:51,910
some person's going to rank it first. Some person's going to rank it. That's just

579
00:33:51,910 --> 00:33:55,710
the way taste is. You guys seek that, the. The ratings and all that.

580
00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:57,790
I don't know if you guys are submit them. I Don't know. We do. I

581
00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:01,270
mean, I work with all the critics, you know, and. And I still think you

582
00:34:01,270 --> 00:34:04,850
have to focus on making wines possible that make yourself happy again. It goes back

583
00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:08,490
to chasing this and chasing that. I mean, the marketplace for critics has

584
00:34:08,490 --> 00:34:11,410
changed. I mean, when I came through, there was two. There were a lot of

585
00:34:11,410 --> 00:34:15,170
critics. There were two powerhouses. That was the Spectator with James Lobby

586
00:34:15,170 --> 00:34:18,810
affecting California Wine, and of course, Robert Parker. There was Stephen Tanzer on a

587
00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:22,530
lesser extent in the Connoisseur's Guide and Underground Wine Journal. I think underground was

588
00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:26,330
Steven, but for the most part the wine enthusiast, of course.

589
00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:29,370
And then the wine news. I don't know if you remember the wine news, but

590
00:34:29,370 --> 00:34:33,050
it was really the Spectator and it was Parker. Those are the 100 pound

591
00:34:33,050 --> 00:34:36,750
gorilla. So you, I think, has changed considerably. Here's one of the

592
00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:40,270
reasons. Just visually, when you go to anywhere, particularly a

593
00:34:40,270 --> 00:34:43,590
supermarket, almost every wine is a shelf talker on it. Oh, yeah.

594
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:46,950
So now the consumers look at going things. So it seems like

595
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:51,030
there's a little dilution in the ratings.

596
00:34:51,750 --> 00:34:55,110
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people doing it. But I do think that's

597
00:34:55,110 --> 00:34:58,870
a great thing because of the fact that when two people

598
00:34:58,870 --> 00:35:02,630
have such a power, more full grab on it, and they both like the

599
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:06,390
same style of wines, and that's not a bad thing. Look, every style is about.

600
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:09,550
Every style's allowed in any wine business. You know, it's like anything else.

601
00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:13,230
But when two critics like the same thing, it could be very, you know, okay,

602
00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:17,030
well, gosh, you know, we need to focus on trying to drive this. Well, now

603
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:20,550
there's so many different great critics out there. I'm just gonna make the best wines

604
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:23,870
I can make and hope and find your tribe and find your critic that enjoys

605
00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:27,550
what you're doing and what you're trying to craft. I think that's the best thing

606
00:35:27,550 --> 00:35:30,640
for them. That's the best thing for the consumer. It's the best thing for brands.

607
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:34,270
Brands and just to go out and craft, you know, do what you believe in

608
00:35:34,270 --> 00:35:37,350
and find your tribe. And they'll find you if you're doing it well. Look, not

609
00:35:37,350 --> 00:35:41,190
everybody does it well too. That's the hardest part. You know, there's

610
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:43,830
been a movement for Eno tourism

611
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:47,270
lately all over the world. And I.

612
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:51,470
When I was selling wine, when I was selling the Wine of the Month subscriptions

613
00:35:51,470 --> 00:35:55,190
in the early days, there was this huge value to me standing somewhere like

614
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:59,030
at a Taste of LA or a Taste of Pasadena or Taste of the

615
00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:02,130
Oregon event and shaking a hand

616
00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:06,330
and having that conversation with somebody. And certainly that kind of

617
00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:10,130
relationship is built for a wine dinner. All the

618
00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:13,770
different methodologies that we have to share a glass of wine with

619
00:36:13,770 --> 00:36:17,610
somebody. But it seems to me, particularly in today's marketplace,

620
00:36:17,610 --> 00:36:20,770
that the experiential side of wine is becoming more important

621
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:24,210
to earn the trust of a consumer

622
00:36:26,620 --> 00:36:30,420
needs that kind of conversation. Yeah. You know, it's funny, we

623
00:36:30,420 --> 00:36:34,060
were talking about critics just now. Wine Spectator has sort of taken this

624
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:37,420
view now of re educating the young consumers again. And I thought they did a

625
00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:40,660
wonderful job in this article recently. And where I'm not here to show, you know,

626
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:43,900
to talk about any critics, but I think what they did was let me tell

627
00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:46,860
you how wine's made. And I had people in the business who've been in the

628
00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:50,500
business 20 years ago. This is a great article. They're trying to identify the

629
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:53,460
younger generation. This is how white wine is made. This is how red wine is

630
00:36:53,460 --> 00:36:57,170
made. I think it was the white wine article that was written. It was fantastic.

631
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,520
They're doing a really good job of trying to re. Educate the consumer. Especially we're

632
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,360
talking about the younger consumer coming up because wine can be terribly.

633
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,560
And you know this more than anybody, wine can be terribly

634
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,320
overwhelming and scary. And then for years,

635
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,120
especially before critics became, and the Internet became so powerful, the

636
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,680
gatekeepers can be very hard with the information. I mean, I can remember being a

637
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,120
young person going into wine stores and they had no idea I was at UC

638
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,800
Davis getting my degree and working retail in the winter weekends, they'd almost shoo me

639
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,160
off. Like, why are you here? Go away. Why don't tell you anything. And I

640
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,880
could just imagine someone who's just a young financial person getting out of the business

641
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,080
and going to a wine store and being told that way. No wonder people. So

642
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,640
I think what Spectator did in this article is a great thing for

643
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,920
wine in general to show you, here's how it's done. This is actually a natural

644
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,200
beverage going from getting to end. They're also doing a great job. And most of

645
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,010
them and the bigger issues are talking about, you know, the, the

646
00:37:50,010 --> 00:37:53,530
articles they write about Italy, the articles they write about Spain, the

647
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:57,250
articles they write about France. They do a wonderful job and a deep

648
00:37:57,810 --> 00:38:01,210
research on where to eat, where to drink and where to visit. Now, granted, that's

649
00:38:01,210 --> 00:38:05,050
their bend on some of the wineries, but getting people here is everything. I mean,

650
00:38:05,050 --> 00:38:07,970
as you know, you travel the world for wine, and I've been lucky enough to

651
00:38:07,970 --> 00:38:11,570
do the same. Wine grows in beautiful places. Yeah, we all know that and

652
00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:15,290
there's great food, you know, So I. There isn't a day I don't think my

653
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:18,610
dad. Dad. Yeah. For telling me, hey, son, I think I'm gonna sell the Wine

654
00:38:18,610 --> 00:38:21,570
of the Month club. You may want to just come check it out then I

655
00:38:21,570 --> 00:38:24,930
would work for him for three months and packed wine and charge the credit card.

656
00:38:24,930 --> 00:38:27,610
I go, yeah, I think I can do this. Yeah. And that's like. And he

657
00:38:27,610 --> 00:38:30,410
passed away a couple years ago. But I'm like every day I'm like, wow, thanks

658
00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:33,530
for letting me do this. Yeah. Then you got to take a trip. Then they

659
00:38:33,530 --> 00:38:35,810
winds a Spain go, hey, why don't you come over for a couple weeks, check

660
00:38:35,810 --> 00:38:39,570
out Spain, whatever. Absolutely. You know, that's the

661
00:38:39,570 --> 00:38:42,700
interesting problem though, because wine is

662
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:46,180
you can learn as much and you're still learning. You're going to Learn through your

663
00:38:46,180 --> 00:38:49,980
40 vintages that you get to manage. This book that's

664
00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:53,580
on the table here about the greatest collection in the world. You can continue to

665
00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:57,180
study at the infinitum. So I've always believed that

666
00:38:57,420 --> 00:39:01,140
the individual persons could be their resistance to learning.

667
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:04,980
It could be their excitement to learn. Whatever it is, you can learn as

668
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:08,310
much or as little as you want. But I've always believed, believe that that

669
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:12,110
honest glass of wine eventually finds its way to the generation. Some generations

670
00:39:12,110 --> 00:39:14,870
are later. Gen Z's are a little later, but they're going to get tired of

671
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:17,990
White Claw and they're going to get tired of these flavored beverages that have all

672
00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:20,750
this crap in it. And they're going to have this glass of wine one day

673
00:39:20,750 --> 00:39:23,830
and go, you know, this is really interesting stuff. And some of those people will

674
00:39:23,830 --> 00:39:27,430
say where it's from, let's go visit it. Some wong. Some are going to say,

675
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:31,230
I'm going to continue to buy this wine because it's just really

676
00:39:31,230 --> 00:39:35,040
good. And I'm wondering like all the

677
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,000
word. I should be careful the adjectives I use

678
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,480
for what I read on LinkedIn and places like that of these people that are

679
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,320
talking about how the industry doesn't react and it doesn't understand the consumers. And

680
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,960
I'm like, well, part of it's a. It's one time a year and

681
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,800
two, there is a certain aristocracy that

682
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,720
surrounds wine. Right. And I have to be frank

683
00:39:59,420 --> 00:40:03,020
in that I'll go to a tasting room here. I mean, I tasted 100,000

684
00:40:03,020 --> 00:40:06,780
wines in my career. Documented. Right. So I get it. I'm better

685
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:10,540
at some. I'm better at sort of structurally understanding wine rather than the flavors.

686
00:40:10,540 --> 00:40:14,020
And what I Taste. But when you walk into a tasting room, sometimes you're just

687
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:17,820
treated like you're paying a hundred bucks, you know, whatever this charges these days.

688
00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:22,140
And I think that adds to this aristocracy a little bit, that I'm a

689
00:40:22,140 --> 00:40:25,870
little intimidated because they want. Want to. They want to share

690
00:40:25,870 --> 00:40:29,310
that they know more than you. And I don't think that's a good thing. Absolutely

691
00:40:29,310 --> 00:40:33,110
not. And I think the best workers in the. In the

692
00:40:33,110 --> 00:40:36,950
tasting room let you sort of let go along with you for the ride, you

693
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:40,550
know, invite you, listen to you, you know, and that's what I've seen. At least

694
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:43,190
now I still go to tasting rooms. I go. I like to go over, because

695
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:45,750
I don't make a lot of Pinot Noir. One client, I do. So I like

696
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:49,030
to go to Russian river and taste wines. Yeah. And just sort of. And then,

697
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:51,510
you know, Katie and I, you know, my girlfriend will go. We'll go taste wines

698
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:55,230
together and just observe how they're hosting things. And it works for

699
00:40:55,230 --> 00:40:58,730
her because she go back to her winery and say, hey, I saw this. And

700
00:40:58,730 --> 00:41:02,090
this. This might be a really interesting thing to. To. To talk about. Right. And

701
00:41:02,090 --> 00:41:05,210
I. I get to see how people are handling themselves. And some people, like you

702
00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:08,610
said, want to talk over you, want to tell you. And then they find out

703
00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:11,890
that you're a winemaker in Napa Valley, and they're like, oh, okay, that was an

704
00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:15,490
interesting hour. I just, you know. Yeah. So. But most people just, I think the

705
00:41:15,490 --> 00:41:18,890
best salespeople, I mean, and that's why I think we need to invest a lot

706
00:41:18,890 --> 00:41:21,890
more time and energy into the people that work in our tastings, because they're the

707
00:41:21,890 --> 00:41:25,340
front line. They're the ones. Ones talking about our brand and. And. And

708
00:41:25,420 --> 00:41:28,940
expounding on what we're trying to achieve, and not only about the brand, but the

709
00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:32,740
wonders of Napa Valley or Sonoma. You know, a rising tide floats all

710
00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:35,820
boats. We want people to come to California. We want people to go to, you

711
00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:38,380
know, if they're going to Paso, we want them here. But, hey, they're coming to

712
00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:41,500
California. They're. They're going to eventually find us. And

713
00:41:42,140 --> 00:41:45,860
that's interesting. You know, unfortunately, it has. You know, we are working on

714
00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:48,980
some things to get. Trying to get things more affordable here. Things are expensive, and

715
00:41:48,980 --> 00:41:52,570
we're not. We're not ignorant to the. To that. So, yeah, that is a huge

716
00:41:52,570 --> 00:41:56,370
issue. And here's what was told to me recently

717
00:41:56,450 --> 00:41:59,810
in a tasting room in his.

718
00:42:00,210 --> 00:42:04,050
The woman's husband is a winemaker in the Valley as well. And she

719
00:42:04,050 --> 00:42:07,890
said, and I kind of experienced this because we typically stay in Yountville. We have

720
00:42:07,890 --> 00:42:11,650
a couple of hotels we really like, and we noticed that the

721
00:42:11,650 --> 00:42:15,450
attendance is down. There's not many people here, but the prices are

722
00:42:15,450 --> 00:42:18,290
still really high. And the comment that was made to me was,

723
00:42:19,090 --> 00:42:22,850
yes, the. The hotels have business to run as well, and so they're able

724
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:26,410
to use a skeleton crew with a 30% occupancy charge, the same

725
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:29,810
amount, and. And. And their expenses are lower,

726
00:42:30,050 --> 00:42:33,570
but they still get the revenue. But that's not good for the

727
00:42:33,570 --> 00:42:37,250
tasting rooms because the people aren't here. Driving up down the highway and going, thing

728
00:42:37,490 --> 00:42:41,130
seems to be busier this week, and of course, it's harvest, so

729
00:42:41,130 --> 00:42:43,730
that's. Yeah, it's a great time to be here. You know, we have seen, you

730
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:47,280
know, as busy as it was a couple years ago. No, but

731
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,960
I think that's just. If you look at, you know, I think Covid really sort

732
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,400
of accelerated things. It got really busy again. So the Roaring twenties feel.

733
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,000
Whereas if you look at the long term, I think this was posted, I want

734
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,520
to say, in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, if you take

735
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,440
off those years, we're still on a path up. It's just not as great as

736
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,640
it was in those time frames. It's still growing. It's just not growing as fast

737
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,280
as we. As we experienced during COVID which I think any business would say

738
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,080
was pretty booming for a couple of years, too, so. But we need to do

739
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,840
more. I mean, I think I don't get to make a lot of those decision

740
00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:18,620
reasons because I'm not at, you know, I don't own hotels here. Well, that's not

741
00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:22,300
by design. Yeah, yeah. I make wine. But I would say that I hope

742
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,940
that they're, you know, I know that visit Napa Valley is working on that. I

743
00:43:24,940 --> 00:43:28,340
know hotels are working on that. I know the leadership of the vendor solution are

744
00:43:28,340 --> 00:43:32,019
all working on opportunities to get more people here, to get it more affordable

745
00:43:32,019 --> 00:43:35,820
to do all those different things. It's kind of interesting. No, I would want

746
00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:38,940
to finish it. We're almost done, but I want to finish on the philosophy of

747
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:41,340
Tokalon on the way up. But

748
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:45,790
there's 13 that I know of wineries for sale in

749
00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:49,510
Temecula and Temecula.

750
00:43:49,590 --> 00:43:52,190
And I, I told somebody, they asked me, like, what would you think? I said,

751
00:43:52,190 --> 00:43:55,510
you're not in Temecula. You're not buying a winery.

752
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:59,630
You're buying strictly a hospitality business because the

753
00:43:59,630 --> 00:44:03,190
busloads come in. It's A. It's. It's experiencing wine

754
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:07,230
country in a much more affordable environment. And you don't have to travel six

755
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:09,550
to eight hours in a car to get there. You can travel two hours anywhere

756
00:44:09,550 --> 00:44:13,320
in la, you get the Temecula, two hours. And so they're like, what do you

757
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,680
mean? I said, it's not about winemaking there. It's about

758
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,080
hospitality. And maybe there's some lessons there because

759
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,360
you said it already. It's really

760
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,200
salesmanship. Hospitality is really salesmanship. And

761
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,480
maybe that's one of the aspects that tasting room

762
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,200
managers and tasting personnel should be indoctrinated

763
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,920
to, which is. My career, was a sales guy all my life, is

764
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,510
understanding the customer. Customer. Yeah. Understand the person's walking the door,

765
00:44:42,510 --> 00:44:46,350
where they're at in their career of wine tasting, in this case. And,

766
00:44:46,350 --> 00:44:49,310
you know, if I'm selling copiers, where they're at in the copier world, whatever they're

767
00:44:49,310 --> 00:44:52,510
doing, to understand with that and then respond to that.

768
00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:56,910
Respond to that position and take it to that level, wherever that

769
00:44:56,910 --> 00:45:00,230
is. You know, Danny Meyer wrote a great book on service, and everybody who's in

770
00:45:00,230 --> 00:45:03,830
the service industry should read that book. Yes. Because, I mean, his restaurants in New

771
00:45:03,830 --> 00:45:07,380
York are just juggernauts for service. And I think even I've read the book on

772
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:09,980
the winemaking side, how to talk to People. How to. How to. You know, because

773
00:45:09,980 --> 00:45:13,220
I am still selling, you know, whether I'm selling right now to your company or.

774
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:16,500
Or whatever I'm selling. I'm all. You're always selling, whether you like it or not.

775
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:20,100
And, you know, you have to be. And so

776
00:45:20,260 --> 00:45:24,020
I think everybody should read that book at least once, especially if. In sales, because

777
00:45:24,420 --> 00:45:27,940
I will. Yeah, it's a great book. And he's a Cornell grad, so. Right.

778
00:45:27,940 --> 00:45:31,660
Yeah, I think so. So. So tell me about, as we wrap

779
00:45:31,660 --> 00:45:35,370
this up, the. The. The. The ongoing philosophy and then

780
00:45:35,690 --> 00:45:38,970
what we think the future holds for. To cologne.

781
00:45:39,290 --> 00:45:43,090
Yes. So, you know, agree it took long. You know, so we craft

782
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:46,890
three wines. We craft highest beauty, we craft Eliza's Cuvee, and

783
00:45:46,890 --> 00:45:49,770
we craft hwc. And

784
00:45:51,370 --> 00:45:55,090
the highest beauty is as a collection of the best blocks that

785
00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:58,890
I get, the best barrels of Cabernet Sauvignon from Toquelon.

786
00:45:58,970 --> 00:46:02,570
I work with 10 different blocks. I hand select them myself.

787
00:46:03,450 --> 00:46:07,270
And the second wine, I'm going to talk.

788
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:09,750
I'm going to talk about what my favorite wine is right now, because it's special.

789
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:14,190
The HWC is basically. When Robert Mondavi got the property in

790
00:46:14,190 --> 00:46:17,950
66, they discovered a clone of Cabernet. It's very small, very small, clustered

791
00:46:17,950 --> 00:46:21,750
berries, very dark, very black. And it's called the Mondavi selection.

792
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:25,630
That wine is just that clone. It's only planted

793
00:46:25,630 --> 00:46:28,470
sporadically throughout the Tocquellon vineyard.

794
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:33,430
And I craft anywhere between 300 to 600 cases of that a year

795
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:37,250
off the property. And that's a Special, special caber. 100% cabernet.

796
00:46:37,330 --> 00:46:41,170
Highest beauty. Andy Erickson, of course, founded the brand I took over. I

797
00:46:41,170 --> 00:46:44,250
intend to blend a little more Cabernet Francop Petit Vo in there. He was 100%

798
00:46:44,250 --> 00:46:48,010
cabernet there. The last wine, I think, you know, I was asked, you know, to

799
00:46:48,010 --> 00:46:50,490
chat with you today. You know, they said, well, just if he asks you what

800
00:46:50,490 --> 00:46:53,170
you. What is your favorite wine you're crafting right now? I think the most unique,

801
00:46:53,170 --> 00:46:56,290
one of a kind wine we craft off that is Eliza's, which is a Cabernet

802
00:46:56,290 --> 00:47:00,050
Franc. Cabernet blend. Wow. Cabernet Franc at Toquelon is really

803
00:47:00,050 --> 00:47:03,290
special. It's one of a kind. Not very many people make it. Even, you know,

804
00:47:03,290 --> 00:47:07,050
over at the other side of Tocquelon, you know, they have, I think, two acres

805
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:09,890
of it. And so we're very blessed to get Cabernet Franco there. I've talked to

806
00:47:09,890 --> 00:47:13,330
Tim Mondavi about it, and he's like, yeah, Tony Cabernet Franc. Special.

807
00:47:13,570 --> 00:47:17,210
And it really, truly is. So that's the wine that I'm probably the excited,

808
00:47:17,210 --> 00:47:21,050
most excited for people to try, critics and consumers alike, because not many

809
00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:24,610
people get a bottle of Cabernet Franc and put it out to them to somewhat

810
00:47:24,610 --> 00:47:28,330
masses. So those are the three wines we're crafting, and we're always trying

811
00:47:28,330 --> 00:47:31,850
to work to get better. We have some new blocks coming online on Toquelon. They

812
00:47:31,850 --> 00:47:34,490
had to replant some stuff, and we had some older vines. I mean, there are

813
00:47:34,490 --> 00:47:38,230
blocks out there that are two years old now that the Mandavi family planted that

814
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:41,790
we're working with that. It's just beautiful, beautiful Cabernet Sauvignon. So

815
00:47:42,110 --> 00:47:45,630
super excited to work with that. And then, as I said earlier,

816
00:47:45,790 --> 00:47:49,270
I'm now going into my. I worked with the 21s and 22s of

817
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:52,910
Andy Erickson, and Andy was kind enough to

818
00:47:52,910 --> 00:47:56,470
recommend me for this job when he moved on. And Thomas Brown, who also crashed

819
00:47:56,470 --> 00:47:59,630
Schrader, was also kind enough to recommend me. So they both

820
00:47:59,790 --> 00:48:02,030
coincided. So I was able to get the job. And

821
00:48:03,970 --> 00:48:07,690
just building on what he built and just really getting to know the blocks,

822
00:48:07,690 --> 00:48:10,130
because then there, you know, there's some blocks that I think are just now coming

823
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:13,090
online that are going to be amazing. So, you know,

824
00:48:13,490 --> 00:48:17,170
Cabernet Frog is getting a little renaissance. I think

825
00:48:17,170 --> 00:48:20,890
it's the sirens call. It's everybody loves Cabernet Frank. Then for some reason, no one

826
00:48:20,890 --> 00:48:24,370
ever buys it, you know. Yeah, but they, you know, they've. They've been. Some of

827
00:48:24,370 --> 00:48:27,810
them are thin, some a little acidic. They don't care a lot of

828
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:30,440
depth, but they've come around. And

829
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,320
I remember I had a conversation with August Sebastiani last time we were

830
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,120
up here. And I, When I was talking to him, I

831
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,400
go, wait a minute. I go, I bought like in the early

832
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,920
2000s, maybe even late 1990s, the

833
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,720
cabernet franc from Sebastiani. I go, it was. And the label was

834
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:53,280
like one of the little girls in the family drew it on the wall. He

835
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,050
goes, yeah, that was my sister, sister. And she taken crayon and they

836
00:48:57,050 --> 00:49:00,210
took a picture that made it a label and it was 100% cabernet franc. That

837
00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:03,890
was back then. Yeah. But now you see it, you know, Santa

838
00:49:03,890 --> 00:49:07,570
Milion is, you know, very prevalent always. But to see.

839
00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:11,410
I would love to see how this Cabernet franc and this

840
00:49:11,650 --> 00:49:15,250
vineyard is so. Probably so expressive. It really

841
00:49:15,250 --> 00:49:18,930
is. And I think that's why Tim and Davi said it's so special. Cab Franca

842
00:49:18,930 --> 00:49:22,690
is so special there because I know that now, tasting the Cabernet Francs, I can

843
00:49:22,690 --> 00:49:26,510
taste in the older Mondavi reserve wines, you know, and when it's funny, because

844
00:49:26,510 --> 00:49:30,150
even three or four, I know it's funny, you'll do a wine tasting and someone

845
00:49:30,150 --> 00:49:33,750
go, how much franc is in this? And. And 2%, like, ah, I

846
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:36,590
totally get that. I'm like, well, I don't. That's funny, you know, 2%. I don't

847
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:39,430
know how you taste that, but it's funny at 4 or 5%. I do see

848
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:42,149
a little bit of that sort of the etherealness to it, the sort of the

849
00:49:42,149 --> 00:49:45,750
herbal, the really beautiful herbalness to it. Sort of like the violets that I always

850
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:49,070
take. Darjeeling tea, you know, a gunpowder tea.

851
00:49:49,550 --> 00:49:53,130
So just, you know, it's like a dried herb, Herb. Herb de

852
00:49:53,130 --> 00:49:56,370
Provence kind of thing that I love in that wine. So it's super exciting to

853
00:49:56,370 --> 00:49:59,170
work with. And so we're doing some co fermentations with Cabernet there to make a

854
00:49:59,170 --> 00:50:02,970
more. More complete wine super fun. I super love it. And, you know,

855
00:50:02,970 --> 00:50:06,570
kind of a. It's kind of an ode to Cheval

856
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:09,690
Blanc in A way. But even though there's no Merlot, you know, this Cabernet gets

857
00:50:09,690 --> 00:50:12,930
to take that place. But you know, there's a lot more.

858
00:50:13,330 --> 00:50:15,730
Actually our last visit to Saint Emilion

859
00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:19,690
opened my eyes to the fact there's a lot more Cabernet Franc than you think

860
00:50:19,690 --> 00:50:23,110
there. Oh yeah, absolutely. To counter the, the, the, you know, the

861
00:50:23,110 --> 00:50:26,830
viscosity and the weight of Merlot. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah, they're not planning

862
00:50:26,830 --> 00:50:29,950
Merlot out there too because the climate change are saying or Cabernet. They're planning Cabernet

863
00:50:29,950 --> 00:50:32,910
more and more over on the plateau, not down in the flats. So it's been

864
00:50:32,910 --> 00:50:36,430
interesting to see how it goes. So can you imagine they're. They're testing like Tariga

865
00:50:36,430 --> 00:50:39,670
national and stuff in Bordeaux. Yeah, we're doing it here as well. We're doing it

866
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:42,790
here now. I've often said, you know, you get to get the whole. Are you

867
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,350
worried about cabernet? 10 years from now I go, Cabernet will be here long after

868
00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:49,550
I'm gone. There's so many smart people here. They'll figure out ways to grow it.

869
00:50:49,550 --> 00:50:52,310
You know, people are going back to head trained again to get more shade, you

870
00:50:52,310 --> 00:50:55,800
know, more, you know, back to camp California sprawl to shade the fruit more. There'll

871
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,160
be new clone material, new rootstocks, as you were saying earlier. And it's a great

872
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,040
way to almost, you know, we're going to wrap this up. But what's old is

873
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,240
new again. You know, we're going back to St. George. We're going back to 110R.

874
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,960
We're going back to the old heritage clones that had been here for 50, 60

875
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,520
years. And so I think, you know, it's funny, all these old farmers we made

876
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,120
fun of now are geniuses. So you know how that works, right?

877
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,780
Well, there's a guy, it's called Terravox. It's in

878
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:23,780
Kansas, right outside of Kansas City. He's up in the

879
00:51:23,780 --> 00:51:27,540
hills. He found a book, Eisterhold,

880
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:31,220
his name was Eiserhold. He found a book of American wine

881
00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:34,820
grapes from the 1800s, pre

882
00:51:34,820 --> 00:51:38,660
prohibition from that part of the country, which is, you know, really where most

883
00:51:38,660 --> 00:51:42,180
of the wineries were. And they always, they started in Kentucky, I think. Yeah.

884
00:51:42,820 --> 00:51:46,310
And so, and I told the guy and I read about him in the Smithsonian

885
00:51:46,460 --> 00:51:50,220
magazine and he's trying to repropagate these things. He found

886
00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:53,980
14 of these grapes in different nurseries around the country and

887
00:51:53,980 --> 00:51:57,540
he's starting to grow them. And I'm like, dude, you have the

888
00:51:57,540 --> 00:52:01,340
tallest job in the world. You have no history. You have no idea what the

889
00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:03,700
soil is going to bring you. You have no idea this grape's going to do.

890
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:06,300
He goes, I know. He goes, I've already thrown four of the grapes off the

891
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:09,580
vineyard because I can't make a palatable wine out of them.

892
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:13,650
I said, wow, what an amazing task to not have any history

893
00:52:13,650 --> 00:52:17,450
to work from. And it's not vinifera. It's like, oh, no. It's

894
00:52:17,450 --> 00:52:21,290
like. It's a little brass guy. Yeah, well, because you got to remember,

895
00:52:21,290 --> 00:52:24,850
I mean, that's such a humid area. Humidity is just not good for grapevine, you

896
00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:28,610
know, for. And then also you have Pierce's disease, which I'm sure they would have

897
00:52:28,610 --> 00:52:32,250
pressure as well. That's what killed. You know, they called it Anaheim's disease. That's what

898
00:52:32,250 --> 00:52:35,090
killed most of the vineyards in Anaheim. So, you know. You know, it's so funny.

899
00:52:35,090 --> 00:52:37,890
You land over in Ontario and there's all these old head train vineyards all around.

900
00:52:38,220 --> 00:52:41,340
It's crazy. So, yeah, so I'm excited to see. That'd be interesting to see. I

901
00:52:41,340 --> 00:52:45,020
mean, that's interesting. That's an interesting piece of history brought up as we end. This

902
00:52:45,020 --> 00:52:48,700
is. You know, most of LA was planted like that. Anaheim

903
00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:52,500
was devastated by Pierce's. Yeah, they used to call it Anaheim's disease. It

904
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:55,580
wasn't Pierces, it was Anaheim's disease. Yeah, no, that's what they call now. It's, of

905
00:52:55,580 --> 00:52:59,180
course, Pierce's disease. But, yeah, I know. And you know, you know, Tegan

906
00:52:59,180 --> 00:53:02,620
Pasalako over at Turley, I mean, he's pretty knowledgeable in all this older stuff, so

907
00:53:02,860 --> 00:53:06,520
he loves collecting these old books. So he's always posting stuff and pretty fun. I

908
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,280
mean. But yeah, I mean, California has a great history in the so. But we're

909
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,640
learning, like I always say, what I know could fill volumes. What we don't know

910
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,280
could fill libraries. Well, we appreciate the fact you're here at the helm

911
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,920
to propagate that history and contribute to it, because

912
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,400
as most, most, at least European and now American

913
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,240
vineyards would say, or winemakers, I'm just. Passing through this 100%.

914
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,400
I hope they'll leave it better for the next person that's after me that's. It

915
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,210
still goes. I mean, the vineyard's amazing and I know that my time will be

916
00:53:36,210 --> 00:53:39,490
up and then the next person will be coming on in. And, you know, it's

917
00:53:39,490 --> 00:53:42,690
always interesting, you know, to love French wine and to see that. I wish there

918
00:53:42,690 --> 00:53:45,970
was more. I think the family winery in Napa Valley is making a comeback now

919
00:53:45,970 --> 00:53:49,650
because of that, too. That you'll see that the generational pull. I mean,

920
00:53:50,610 --> 00:53:53,970
it's like anything else. It's called the wine business, their side of it. That's going

921
00:53:53,970 --> 00:53:56,370
to be very hard. It's the business that's not the pretty side, it's the hard

922
00:53:56,370 --> 00:54:00,090
side, but it's a business. So great having you on the show and good

923
00:54:00,090 --> 00:54:02,610
luck with the harvest this year. Thank you. Yeah. Running through it right now. I'm

924
00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:04,450
going to go head back to the vineyards as soon as we get done, so.

925
00:54:04,450 --> 00:54:05,790
All right. Cheers. Cheers.