Terroir, Technology, and Taste: The Future of Wine in Armenia

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My vision was in the next

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15 years at the time is to

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put Armenia on the map of the world where you can

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grow any types of wine in Armenia. So if I'm successful

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in creating high value

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wine at attractive price and when

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the world goes crazy about these types of wine and they're affordable,

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then I think will get lots of big names come to

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Armenia and invest because of now they have

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a proof in the pudding that you can make excellent wines.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine

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Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today, the

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beautiful Southern California day here in a getting into the

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holidays. About to have a conversation with Adam Kablanian,

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the CEO. You don't even say CEO. The founder and

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owner of Alexandria Winery in

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Armenia. Hey, have a listen to a show that just came out with

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Greg Lambrek. Lambrecht, you can say

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Lambrecht. He is the founder and owner of

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Klora Van Wine Preservation System.

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Incredible, incredible feat of engineering that came from

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his boredom with fusion. Yeah, building

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nuclear plants. Listen to that. But not while we're here.

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So glad to have you here, Adam. Thanks for coming in. Well, thank you for

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having me. I hope we're not talking about fusion. Even though I studied physics, I

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understand fusion. But we're not going to talk about. No, we're not going to talk.

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But he did, he did say I got bored with it. He goes, it'll never

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work. But whatever he was working on. And he went into medical

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devices and that turned into the court. You know the coravan button. Yeah, yeah,

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I use it. Yeah. It's a crazy, crazy good story. But we're

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not going to talk about him today. Your history,

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you know, you're in LA for a little bit but you spent a lot of

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time in Armenia and you've founded Alexandria

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Winery which is I think a blend of your kids names. Yeah,

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Alex is my son's name and Andrea is my daughter named. It

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rolls right off the top. Yeah, I know. It's Alexandrea. It's beautiful.

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And you just. Let's start with this one. And I, and I looked this up.

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I hadn't heard of the rodeo on Cork, but it's just to give

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it, you know, some reference. For

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years and years and years the LA county fair was the largest tasting

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in America for many years and it was 2500 wines.

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And so you can imagine now this rodeo and I've heard some more about

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it since we talked about it, is is over 2,800 wines. So it's a

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Big tasting and you came away with some

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accolades. Yeah, I was really pleasantly surprised.

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Surprise is not the right word. My winemaker is a judge there. You

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know, he's been going there for several years. And, you know, Jeff

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Ritchie is an excellent winemaker, 30 years experience.

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He said we should submit our wines there. I said, why do I need to

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six of them? He says, let's send them all. So

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three days ago we got the news that we

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got two double golds, a Riesling and white cuvee.

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We can discuss those later. We have two golds and two

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silvers, and three of the six is

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class champion within their price range

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and the type of wine. And these are all produced

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from second year vineyard. So this is not an old

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vineyard, this is not a mature vineyard. So, you know, it's

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interesting because when the Americans beat the

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French in 1976 in the, in the judgment of Paris,

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people argue that vineyard has to be old. It has to be, you know, old

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viny, but a new one, I think in general is probably accurate. But the,

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the cabernet, that one that beat the Bordeaux in that tasting was

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the first crop of that vineyard. Yeah. So I guess it doesn't always

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apply. It doesn't always apply, but it does help, like when the

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roots take hold and goes deeper and extracts nutrients and

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extracts minerals. Makes it more complex. But, you know, in

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Armenia, we're lucky we have volcanic soil. You don't have to go really deep. It's.

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The whole soil is volcanic. So it's rich and porous. Yeah, very porous. And

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vines like that. Yeah, vines love, love volcanic soil. So this

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just tasting, let's kind of peel that back and get, you know, dig into the

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marketing of wine. Because this certainly many, many

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brands that win gold like this would probably go after later and

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put a sticker on the label, hoping that the consumer will see that on the

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shelf. But I think it's the beginning of, you know,

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part of the process. And you asked if this, if this was a

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well known tasting. That's it is as far as I can tell, and certainly

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by the size of it, it's reputable. And so now

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what do you do with this information? I don't mean that as a question. What

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is, in general, what do we do this, what does your winemaker think now happens

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with these accolades? Well, we also have obligation,

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I guess. There is a tasting in February as a

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follow up to this, and there's also some gala afterwards

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where officially the stickers and certificates

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will be kind of awarded. We haven't thought about how to market

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it, how to put the stickers. Definitely, we want to

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publicize it, but more importantly, it gives the

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team great confidence that these vineyards had huge

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potential. So that's really the most important thing is not so

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much the marketing angle. It's so that

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the path that we have outlined back 2017,

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when I decided to get into wine business and the decisions we

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made right now is really proving to be the correct decision,

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where we select the vineyard, the type of varieties

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we plant there. One of the things

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I did differently than other Armenian winemakers

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is that I decided to also

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make wines from international varietals. Yes. Which is

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not typical in Armenia. We have only Karas, has some international

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varieties, but the rest of the wineries, the winemakers are only working

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with indigenous Armenian varietals, which is fantastic. I

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think we need to nurture that. We need to understand how to make better wines

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from these varietals. But my business approach

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and my outlook. Was a little bit different. I said, well, I knew

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that majority of my market will be outside of Armenia, so I

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want to start with labels, wine type that people

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recognize, like Pinot, Chardonnay, Riesling. And now

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they said, wow, this is from Armenia. And where is Armenia?

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Here's where. Armenia. Oh, by the way, we also have indigenous,

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like RNA varietals. Oh, by the way, we're also

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experimenting with making cuvee between Voskehad

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and Chardonnay, which is which. Which

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won double gold, for example, in this competition. So you can

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now we have an opportunity to create unique wines that doesn't exist.

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It's like, you know, ancient vines with, you know, Old

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World wines combining them. One of my German

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winemakers I met says, oh, I can know. I see what your

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winemakers trying to do is having east talk to the West. So it's

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kind of an expression of how cube is. That's an interesting thought,

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and I want to touch on that. The New World wines and the style that

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you have, but essentially thought that maybe from on a

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molecular basis, there might be some kind of agreement

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between the molecular structure of an Old World wine

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from Ottomy. It's been there for 6,000 years. And a Chardonnay coming from another

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part of the world. Who knows what's going on in there? But, you know, certainly

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when you blend wine, whether it's international grapes with indigenous

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grapes or even there used to be wines in America where there was

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South American Cabernet blended with North American Cabernet,

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that there's some kind of synergy and that there's some kind of thing that we

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can't even explain that's going on in those wines just because we tried

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it. The wines I've had for you are very good. And they're, they.

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What I tell people about them when I talk to them is that they're of

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current, modern character. And, and

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that's what sells today is they have to feel modern.

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You know, we are in Italy and we went to Piemonte and we went

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to Barolo. We went to two distinctively different houses.

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One you, my wife couldn't even stand the cellar because it was so musty and

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moldy. And that's the character. And then the other one was this

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new hip, you know, bright fruit, forward type

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wines. So it's just an interesting thought, but let's

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go back to the, the domestic varietals or the French varietals

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versus indigenous. Here's the way I see some of

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that. You've got unknown grapes, Adonis, Voska,

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Kangun, and an unknown region, really.

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And you try to bring it to the world stage and, and go up

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ahead against Bordeaux, Burgundy, California, Napa,

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Sonoma, Central. I mean, that is a tall order. It

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is. And I think by eliminating one of those variables, which is the

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indigenous grape names, I had this conversation for the last

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couple of years with people in the industry that you at least have

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taken some of the permutations out of the headwinds, some of the things that might

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cause people confusion. So you say Chardonnay or

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Chardonnay, Riesling or Riesling that at least on the shelf,

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somebody might say, oh, this is interesting. Yeah, Chardonnay from Armenia. Wow,

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let me try it out. And I know Chardonnay, I like. You know Chardonnay from

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Burgundy. I do like Chardonnay from

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Sonoma, but this is kind of unique. Never heard about Armenia.

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Well, I get also criticized by Armenian winemakers that I don't

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believe in the Armenian in indigenous. I feel that I'm spending all this

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investment making wines that's not native to Armenia.

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And my reply to them says, look, it's a $10 million investment

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which is large in Armenia scale. Said,

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how is it I don't believe in Armenians wine making?

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And to me, one of the things as I took this journey and

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I understood, I understood that 95% of

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high quality wines is really to do with the terroir. Terroir,

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terroir, terroir. And so when

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I start looking at where to put my vineyards.

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So I selected three different distinct regions,

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60km apart, 120km so we

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have one in Brochan, in Godyk, where I do all the,

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you know, early reds and Pinot Noir and the white

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Riesling and Vosquehad as well as

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Muscat and Chardonnay. And then I have another region

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where those are all high elevation vineyards. 11,

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you know, 30 meters, so it is. Gets lots of sun.

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And another. Another how many meters? 11,

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37. 1. The others one one

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100 meter high. The other one is. Has also their

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volcanic. That's why I have all the Bordeaux.

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The first harvest was this year for the Bordeaux

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varietal. So we will not see the swines for another year and a half.

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So in 2027. But they're developing very

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nicely and the berries were fantastic when we picked them

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up, you know, we kind of tasted and there is good fennels

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there and phenomenal. It's potential is. Is amazing.

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So what, what we have done is we match

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the terroir and not just the soil composition

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to the type of varietal that does well there. And that's

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why I have international as well as indigenous. Well, let's stop

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there for a second. A couple of things you said are very important and

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it helps define some of this for the listeners. When you talk about

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1100 meters, about 3300ft, a little more than that,

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and you compare that to like Napa, which is like 700ft,

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there's a substantial difference in altitude, which has a lot to do

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with the quality of the grapes and the way the grapes develop. But

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is that not a wine geek thing? And that's not a question.

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Like if you're going down the shop, supermarket aisle, you're not looking

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for which ones have the highest altitude, unless you can't reach it because it's so

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high on the shelf. Hey, that was a good joke.

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I remembered that. But

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so it's important for us as wine people to recognize those things

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because that's what goes into the grape and what goes into the bottle when you're

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doing it. But what's important to the consumer is, you know, do I really like

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it? Is it really good value, you know, and, and will I share with my

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friends or I pour it at home? Like really, when I've tasted wine at the

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Wine of the Month club every Tuesday sometimes, when I

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couldn't arrive at a decision as to what I would feature

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that wine or not, was would I serve this at home?

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Would I be happy to have this for a guest that came to my

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home expressing something? And I think you're on the right

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path with that, because by.

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By examining terroir phenolic ripeness,

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understanding what that vineyard is going to produce,

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you're going to produce an honest wine

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that expresses where it's from and why you made it in the first place. It's

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in the bottle already. And that resonates with people, I think. Yeah. I

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think the essence of the wine is really the terroir and all the

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conditions that get summarized at the

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harvest time. Of course, harvest picking

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is important when you pick them and how often you pick them. So

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we usually harvest over three weeks. So we don't pick all the grapes from the

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same vineyard. Same type of all the same. If it's not ripe,

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then we leave them on the vines for a little bit longer because we

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want as much hang time as possible with high

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altitude. High altitude wines is very

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difficult because the sun is really developing the

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sugar level very, very fast. Yeah, you have

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to. So we don't have the opportunity in the vineyards. We have

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long hang time, so we need to manage it. So one of the things we've

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done, it has a small effect, but every little thing helps. So we had

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anti hell nets that we put just for hell, because we do have

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hell in Armenia, but we leave them on throughout the whole

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harvest season just to reduce the effect of the sun.

236
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Huh. So they actually do some canopy work with. Exactly. A little bit.

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Yeah, a little bit. Maybe 5%. But, you know, every little thing help.

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00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,240
So you need to really measure, be precise, pick the right

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time. And that's really what takes in terms of producer oil, the

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winemaker and comes into picture making decision

241
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how to segregate the different lots, the ones on the slope

242
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harvesting differently than the ones a little bit down on the

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plain. And, you know, and

244
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sometimes we have like 12 different

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varietals. We're working like this harvest because we had the Bordeaux,

246
00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:27,100
we had like 35 different bins. Wow. And

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00:15:27,180 --> 00:15:30,980
so in February, when I go back to Armenia with Jeff, we

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will sit down and start experimenting blends, what to do,

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which one and which lot. Of course, we're also doing the cuvee. So

250
00:15:38,420 --> 00:15:42,160
we need to decide the percentage of Chardonnay and Vosquehad for

251
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,880
our white Cuvee. So lots of measurements, lots of

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tasting, and. And if we're not sure,

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we go back to it again. And we invite other people in

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Armenia who have good

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nose to give us feedback. So, you know, you know, we have

256
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no ego. We just want to make the best wine. Let's go back

257
00:16:05,410 --> 00:16:09,250
that. And that's a whole probably one hour conversation. To

258
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say, we just want to make the best wine. And this is one of my

259
00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:15,050
challenging questions. I don't want to get into it right now, but which is, what

260
00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:18,690
does that mean? Where are we at? Is it expression? Because I have this definition

261
00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:22,090
which has been circulated among some of the French people I've had in here, which

262
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is, there's really no bad. If you're doing what you're. If you

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00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:29,490
are successful in doing what you just said, then there are

264
00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:33,060
no bad vintages. Because if you express

265
00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:36,900
the vintage, what you were given by the soil in a

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proper way without diluting it and messing it up on the way. On the way

267
00:16:40,740 --> 00:16:43,780
out into the bottle, then you've done the right thing. And, yes,

268
00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:47,780
2014 in Bordeaux may not be as interesting as 2015,

269
00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:51,460
but it's an honest wine. It's not a bad vintage because it

270
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:55,220
expresses the time and place. Right. That's my definition of that

271
00:16:55,540 --> 00:16:59,070
now. But you said something important. Something important. Ego.

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00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:04,510
You know, when the wine industry in Armenia started to evolve and after freedom and

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then a little technology came in, and then people understood what was going on, and

274
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we kind of got away from what was being produced during the Soviet era

275
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into now modern winemaking techniques.

276
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There was that big expression of, well, we're Armenia,

277
00:17:18,830 --> 00:17:22,390
we're proud of what we are, and we have otany and we have these grapes.

278
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:25,630
And, you know, Noah landed his ark on Mount Ararat. And,

279
00:17:26,290 --> 00:17:30,130
you know, the marketability of that is. It's full

280
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of headwinds. Was that one of the initial headwinds, like

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00:17:33,930 --> 00:17:35,010
the. The winemaking

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00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:41,290
symposium, so to speak, in Armenia was saying, look, we want to be Armenian

283
00:17:41,290 --> 00:17:44,690
only. And they thought you were nuts. Besides your $10 million. I mean,

284
00:17:45,090 --> 00:17:48,770
is that a huge headwind? It's a huge headwind because I remember

285
00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:52,570
when I first started going to Armenia in 1998, I used to have a

286
00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:56,300
tech company branch office in Armenia. That's when

287
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,100
I was first exposed to Armenia, though I could not

288
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:03,620
drink any of the wines that was produced in. What year is that? 98. 98.

289
00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:07,180
Well, I couldn't drink them at 07, so. Yeah, well, I think things got

290
00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:10,380
start getting better after 2012 with

291
00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:14,060
Armas coming up with state of the art, you know,

292
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:18,460
winery with indigenous varietal Caras. You

293
00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:22,250
know, Kashgarin did fantastic job in spearheading and

294
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:25,730
believing the terroir of Armenia and

295
00:18:26,050 --> 00:18:29,530
others. Right now we are producing good quality

296
00:18:29,530 --> 00:18:33,130
wines still. I believe we still have ways to go. For

297
00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:36,650
example, RNA has the potential to be as good as Pinot

298
00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:40,330
Noir. Really? But the problem with RNA is there

299
00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:44,130
are different types of RNA and we don't understand, you know,

300
00:18:44,210 --> 00:18:47,250
how to manage the canopy. We don't understand, you know,

301
00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:51,320
how to grow it. We don't. Still lots of experimenting

302
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:55,510
needed to. To reach its full potential. There'll

303
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:59,350
be another 10, 15 years before. But it does have that potential, which is

304
00:18:59,350 --> 00:19:03,190
very, very exciting. Yeah. I'm somewhat taking the

305
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:06,950
easy path by doing Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, because those are

306
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:10,750
proven. But. But R and E has a fantastic. Well,

307
00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:14,510
I don't think they're proven. I mean, you have. As a variety. As

308
00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:17,950
a variety, but not in. Not in 1,000ft.

309
00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:22,030
And with volcanic soil, that's completely different than

310
00:19:22,030 --> 00:19:25,810
the one that gre. True. I don't think that's true at all. But I think.

311
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:28,970
I think Michel Rolon had told Julia at

312
00:19:29,130 --> 00:19:32,250
Katas, you know, years ago when they first started, he's like, okay,

313
00:19:32,970 --> 00:19:36,490
it's suitable, but we won't know for a hundred years.

314
00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:41,130
That's how long he feels it's going to take to understand these grapes in these

315
00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:44,010
areas. Yeah. So I think what Amin has done in this short amount of time

316
00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:47,850
is pretty amazing. It is amazing. And then, I think, you know, but

317
00:19:47,850 --> 00:19:51,190
also people, you know, think that Armenia has been

318
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:55,270
making wine continuously for all these ages. Not true. I mean, it's not true.

319
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:57,990
I mean, there was a big disruption since the

320
00:19:58,550 --> 00:20:01,830
Soviet time because all. And like,

321
00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:05,870
the vineyard management is really made for cognac. Just give as much

322
00:20:05,870 --> 00:20:09,350
water as possible because the farmers are selling those to the cognac

323
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:13,070
factory by the kilos. So they're not really focusing

324
00:20:13,070 --> 00:20:16,870
on quality, managing the yield. So it's a completely different approach

325
00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:21,040
to, you know, to winemaking, but that's

326
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,760
slowly changing. And now I

327
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,360
say that our wines are actually better than the Georgian wines. Georgian wines had,

328
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:32,000
like, fantastic marketing from the Soviet

329
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,680
times. It was known to produce wine in the Soviet Union. So it had the

330
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,000
head start in terms of marketing and in terms of

331
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,800
exposure. But I think Armenia is catching up very fast. Well, that's an

332
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,610
interesting thought. You know,

333
00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:50,570
even I just heard. Where was I listening to? Oh, there was a woman on

334
00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:53,530
yesterday. I was on LinkedIn. There's a

335
00:20:54,010 --> 00:20:57,730
PhD Italian wine person in Italy, had

336
00:20:57,730 --> 00:21:01,450
a Turkish specialist wine specialist on, and I wanted to see

337
00:21:01,450 --> 00:21:05,290
it. Now, I don't know if. If viewership is a,

338
00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:09,170
you know, litmus test on how interesting your show is, but I was the only

339
00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:13,000
one watching how many viewers there

340
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,120
are. There's no one. But I want to hear what she had to say and

341
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,880
this woman was defending the Turkish wine industry, though it's not

342
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,600
apple, those kind of things. And she sorted, and I asked about Armenian

343
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,440
wines to see what she would say. And she said, which I've

344
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,240
heard before, like there was no Armenia, no Turkey, no Iran, no Georgia at

345
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,720
the time. That wine was, you know, sort of founded. Let's just call it. Let's

346
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,040
just assume it was 6,000 years ago. So you really can't say

347
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,540
Armenia was the first country to do this. But it was certainly in our

348
00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:45,340
neighborhood. Right? Correct. That we. That we thought there was a triangle there between north

349
00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:49,060
Iran, Georgia, Armenia and eastern Turkey. Van region,

350
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:52,660
you know, actually the Urartu ancient

351
00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:55,620
kingdom in Lake Van area.

352
00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:00,900
Actually, they sent. They understood the value of

353
00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:05,140
terroir. So in fact, they wanted to expand their

354
00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:08,990
wine production. So they sent emissaries all the way to

355
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:12,750
Vayatsur, Armenia to explore new terroir. And that's

356
00:22:12,750 --> 00:22:16,110
where Viatsur they identify Vitzor as being fantastic.

357
00:22:16,350 --> 00:22:19,910
This is like going back three, 4,000 years. That's pretty interesting. It's very, very

358
00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:23,430
interesting. Then I was, I was. I had to. I gave a

359
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:26,630
keynote speech on Silicon Summit in

360
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:30,310
Armenia. They asked me to combine AI with

361
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:33,590
wine. You know, how can AI can be used to produce good wine. So I

362
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:37,270
did some research, I dig in. So those are information I

363
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:41,070
found. And the conclusion, the conclusion I came was

364
00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:44,030
it's very difficult to use AI to make better wine. There's

365
00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:48,550
30,000 substance components in the wine. When

366
00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:52,350
you evaporate it, you know, how do you change that? How do you modify it?

367
00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:56,030
However, what I've learned is that the terroir is

368
00:22:56,030 --> 00:22:59,710
the key and not. Not even the grape varietal. It's

369
00:22:59,710 --> 00:23:03,390
really the terroir. No terroir. And then, you know,

370
00:23:03,390 --> 00:23:07,170
from, you know, the French recognized that in 1855 would need

371
00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:10,930
the grant classification the Urartus 4000 years

372
00:23:10,930 --> 00:23:14,650
ago. They recognized that. I experienced that when I was

373
00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:18,370
looking at the vineyards, what we to grow and the nature of the

374
00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:22,170
terroir. So I think actually the monks

375
00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:25,770
of Burgundy figured it out and I think it's probably the most

376
00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:29,290
classic example where you have these 1 hectare and 2 hectare

377
00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:33,130
vineyards where the next row over it's a different wine

378
00:23:33,130 --> 00:23:36,500
just because the terroir, so. Exactly.

379
00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:40,660
Which is one of my fascination with Burgundy right now, which cost me

380
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,500
plenty to understand. It's expensive. So why did you.

381
00:23:44,740 --> 00:23:48,580
What is you. I mean, you. You're in the tech world. And

382
00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:52,260
so many people come to this industry for a lot of reasons. And

383
00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:55,580
I think most of the time, at least earlier on, like in Napa, they make

384
00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:59,340
their money and being a government contractor or a surgeon,

385
00:23:59,340 --> 00:24:03,060
and then they, they seek this lifestyle of

386
00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:06,820
wine. And in America now, because it's so expensive

387
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,860
to do this is for example, if you and I went to

388
00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:14,460
Napa today and tried to buy land and make a wine, we probably

389
00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:17,540
couldn't sell it for less than 200 a bottle just to break even.

390
00:24:17,620 --> 00:24:21,220
Exactly. So what allured you to this?

391
00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:24,900
When you went to Armenia for the tech side first and you saw this industry

392
00:24:24,980 --> 00:24:28,580
or you were a wine lover prior or what happened? I've been wine

393
00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:32,140
lover since I guess I graduated from

394
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:35,340
college. I mean, I did not do binge drinking. It was just mainly with food.

395
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:39,620
And my wife and I always enjoy a glass of wine,

396
00:24:39,620 --> 00:24:42,620
a bottle of wine. Forty years ago when we started,

397
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,660
somehow, you know, I found myself pulled into

398
00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:49,660
wine. Every time we travel, I seek

399
00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:54,060
wineries to go and figure out, you know, what type of

400
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:57,740
wines they have and how do they make their wine, how is the wine,

401
00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:01,830
you know, is. Is part of their culture. So there was kind

402
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:05,550
of interest that grew over time, but main focus was really technology.

403
00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:09,710
You know, I'm, you know, I'm a microchip designer,

404
00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:13,430
studied physics, then my master's was in chip design and started a

405
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:17,230
company in Silicon Valley in 1996 called Virage

406
00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:20,750
Logic. And man, in four years, it was just

407
00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:24,040
amazing success. We went public with, with

408
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,240
corporate funding. We had one corporate

409
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,240
investor two years into the operation and nine months before

410
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,920
going public, I had my first venture money. Wow. And then

411
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,200
within nine months, we were public. So all of a sudden I found myself, you

412
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,840
know, with broken English, being a CEO of publicly traded companies. It was

413
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,520
like I was drinking from the fire hose, learning

414
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,480
about sales, marketing, because, you know, I come from engineering background

415
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,400
and so that was very transformative. So the reason I went to

416
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,060
Armenia in 1990 it Because I could not find

417
00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:01,420
qualified engineers or when I found them, they didn't want to work

418
00:26:01,420 --> 00:26:04,900
with this kind of startup that

419
00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:08,740
nobody knows. And Adam is not a proven CEO. I'm

420
00:26:08,740 --> 00:26:12,060
not going to spend time, you know, this was during the dot. I can see

421
00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:15,860
that, the dot com bubble, bubble.

422
00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:19,580
It was. I couldn't find anybody. So I decided, okay, let's go to

423
00:26:19,580 --> 00:26:23,160
Armenia. So I went to Armenia and it was a

424
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,520
gem. I found so many

425
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,720
talented experts, not

426
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,520
necessarily in microchip design, but they're well trained scientists,

427
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,000
well educated, PhD level, master's level.

428
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,160
Didn't have jobs and they didn't speak English. So I took a bet Says,

429
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,960
well, you know, I always look at quality of people, not

430
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,360
necessarily the experience they have. If they're good people, I

431
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:53,200
categorize them as there are three different types of people when you want to

432
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,020
hire. One that you want to hire are the ones that you

433
00:26:57,020 --> 00:27:00,820
don't give them any input. They continuously produce because they understand

434
00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:05,060
the environment, how it's changing. They're coming with ideas, working with

435
00:27:05,060 --> 00:27:08,820
customers, working with colleagues. The second type, I call it the B

436
00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:12,340
type, you give them an input and you get some output.

437
00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:15,820
The third one we never want to hire, which is like you give lots of

438
00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:18,580
input, nothing comes out. So in Armenia we find

439
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:23,660
there are several of those. So in Armenia we find the first. However,

440
00:27:23,660 --> 00:27:27,340
we need to train them in communication, we need to retrain them

441
00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:30,900
into microchip design. And that was the best investment I made.

442
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,340
So over time we, we hired 150

443
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:37,540
specialists. Within three years they were

444
00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:40,660
designing chips that went into the

445
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:45,460
first ipod that Apple introduced. There's three components made in Armenia

446
00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:48,180
in 2001, 2001.

447
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:52,300
So that's kind of how I got hooked into it was not wine, it was

448
00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:55,940
about technology. Yeah, but the intellectual. Let's just touch on that

449
00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:59,540
because there's so with tumo, which for the listeners is a

450
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:03,500
school for young kids. It's start in Armenia, they have one in

451
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:07,300
la, now they have one in Paris. There's others where they're

452
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,140
teaching kids tech, all different parts of tech. Is

453
00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:14,460
there truly a bank of intelligence,

454
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:17,700
intellectual intelligence, tech intelligence,

455
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:22,260
regionally focused in Armenia, meaning can we claim,

456
00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:25,540
we mean Armenians say that we have this

457
00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:29,780
amazing quiver of people

458
00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:34,660
that's different than any place in the world, that the Americans don't

459
00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:38,260
necessarily have it, they have more people. But the concentration

460
00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:41,460
of engineers that can handle this kind of work is

461
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:45,820
quite obvious. And I mean, is that accurate? It is accurate. And that is

462
00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:49,190
due to the Soviet system. Even though

463
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:52,070
Soviet did not emphasize making wine in Armenia.

464
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:57,030
Armenia was the Silicon Valley of the Soviet Union. I see.

465
00:28:57,350 --> 00:29:00,990
So like they were replicating PDP 11 computers

466
00:29:00,990 --> 00:29:04,710
there and there's an institute called Mergelian for four or five

467
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:08,230
thousand mathematicians and computer scientists working there.

468
00:29:08,550 --> 00:29:12,030
The air defense system of the

469
00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:15,750
Soviet Union was designed in Armenia. So there was a huge

470
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:19,500
focus on the education Armenia. So so we

471
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,740
are benefiting from that after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

472
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:27,540
And that's. So that tradition is kind of continuing

473
00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:31,300
in a different way, you know, more like with

474
00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:34,980
the rest of the world. We have over maybe thousand

475
00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:38,300
startups there, some well established companies like

476
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:41,780
Nvidia Service Titan and amd

477
00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:45,620
they all have branch office in Armenia. AMD is there too. AMD is there.

478
00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:49,490
Everybody that. Well, Facebook is not there. But really

479
00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:52,290
people in deep tech that to do with

480
00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:56,330
Synopsys like Virage Logic. We sold the company to Synopsys

481
00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:59,810
and because Synopsys was interested in

482
00:29:59,810 --> 00:30:03,409
purchasing us after we went public, they found out about Armenia

483
00:30:03,490 --> 00:30:07,250
when they were doing due diligence and they said wow, you guys have a gym

484
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:10,050
there? We've been trying to find a stable

485
00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:14,290
workforce and went to India, went to China. The numbers are big.

486
00:30:14,290 --> 00:30:18,020
But the turnover, the attrition rate was like 20, 25%.

487
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:21,820
It's not sustainable. When they looked at our attrition rate, it was like 1%

488
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:25,660
and mainly because people migrating to Canada

489
00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:29,580
but there's nobody else that they were kind of jumping

490
00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:33,260
ship to go and work some else. So they made an investment.

491
00:30:33,420 --> 00:30:37,220
We did not reach a deal at the time. Then they went ahead and

492
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:40,380
start hiring people on their own. And in 2010

493
00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:44,300
they came and purchased us anyway. That's really interesting.

494
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040
So, so that's. And we have 45 to

495
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,240
50,000 tech workers in Armenia contributing

496
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,040
7 to 8% of GDP. In 1998, when I went there

497
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,400
for the first time, it was Sam Simonian,

498
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,240
Tumo and ourselves, Viraj Logic

499
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,080
and there was another company called hpl. It's only three of us and

500
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,680
we're getting the best talent because you know. So 91 was

501
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,170
freedom. And I'm thinking my in laws bought the

502
00:31:14,410 --> 00:31:18,170
Ani hotel about that time. And their thought process

503
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:23,730
was they thought they were helping. They actually thought this

504
00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:27,569
was a philanthropic thing to do. And that whole

505
00:31:27,569 --> 00:31:30,850
period, Maybe up until 98, maybe it was lasted past

506
00:31:30,850 --> 00:31:34,490
98 is when the diasporans were investing

507
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:38,060
and people wanted to buy vineyards and they were getting their ass kicked.

508
00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:40,610
Right? I mean my mother in law came out with

509
00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:45,450
profit, you know, like is it almost as a western investment? They made

510
00:31:45,450 --> 00:31:49,170
decent money on it. And I don't think that was the norm then. No, that

511
00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:52,770
was not the norm. People were taking advantage of everything. Now I think that's

512
00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:56,130
maybe still around a little bit, the corruption, whatever, but

513
00:31:56,610 --> 00:32:00,330
that seems to have settled down and that has filtered through.

514
00:32:00,330 --> 00:32:04,090
And now we have people like you and solid investments and

515
00:32:04,090 --> 00:32:07,930
solid industries doing solid things to benefit not only Armenia

516
00:32:07,930 --> 00:32:10,780
but the world as well when it comes to that. Do you think then

517
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:14,780
that the rise in the cultural

518
00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:18,300
appreciation of wine is partially because of this investment

519
00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:22,220
by people like you coming to Armenia and educating.

520
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:26,060
People there is that effect? Because now we

521
00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:29,740
have increased the standard of living because the tech companies

522
00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:33,580
are paying well compared to the local other non tech

523
00:32:33,580 --> 00:32:37,220
workers. So now many of the tech workers are very affluent. They

524
00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:40,970
can, they can spend, you know, money on wine and stuff. So that's

525
00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:44,650
part of it. Part of it. Also lots of, due to the

526
00:32:44,650 --> 00:32:48,490
Ukraine war, lots of Russians and Belarusians and Ukrainians came

527
00:32:48,490 --> 00:32:51,770
to Armenia. They brought in the actually good

528
00:32:51,770 --> 00:32:55,330
culinary culture. The restaurant qualities improved. The first wave

529
00:32:55,330 --> 00:32:59,050
was when the Syrian Armenians came and they improved the quality.

530
00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:02,890
Of the food's great. And now the Russians came, actually they took

531
00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,510
it to the next level. So right now it's thriving gastronomically

532
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:10,670
with the quality of wine improving. So the

533
00:33:10,670 --> 00:33:14,270
other advantage about Armenia that has it's, it's,

534
00:33:15,470 --> 00:33:18,630
you know, the land is cheap and one of the reasons you asked me a

535
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:22,470
question, why not start a winery in Napa? In fact, I looked

536
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:25,990
into briefly and I met this

537
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:29,710
gentleman who had eight acres and he was producing,

538
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:33,070
you know, high quality, high quality. He wants $8 million.

539
00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:37,890
And then, and then, oh, oh, by the way, I want to get the

540
00:33:37,890 --> 00:33:41,010
grapes and make wine. So you can only sell me the grapes. I said, you

541
00:33:41,010 --> 00:33:43,930
must be crazy. I mean, I'm going to put 8 million to sell you grapes.

542
00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:47,290
Yes. Not interested, thank you. You know, they say

543
00:33:47,530 --> 00:33:51,330
the, the rough number is per tonnage, let's say 8,000

544
00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:54,650
a ton, which is not expensive these days. Let's say you're paying

545
00:33:54,650 --> 00:33:58,250
15,000 a ton, then you just drop off the zeros. And

546
00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:02,170
that means the minimum bottle cost, retail cost is going to be $150.

547
00:34:03,130 --> 00:34:06,970
And that's just, it's unsustainable. I think in today's market. It's gotten really,

548
00:34:06,970 --> 00:34:10,090
really complicated and sort of why I was defining

549
00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:14,370
the position that your wineries, wines are coming into the

550
00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:18,170
marketplace. And I've clearly defined in my head through

551
00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:22,570
sorting through all this that there's just that collector mentality and then the rest of

552
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:26,210
the market. And so the collector mentality probably should stay the

553
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:29,930
course, should probably continue to market to. Its like some of the best advice

554
00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:32,490
I ever got, which was from Kevin o' Leary when he was on the show

555
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,640
and he and I spoke a few times after, which was you got to stay

556
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,400
the course of what Wine of the Month Club is and sell your customers who

557
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,200
trust and believe in you more, more of what they want

558
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,080
instead of trying to get onto the marketplace and fight it,

559
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,560
slug it out with people that have more money and more skus to offer

560
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:55,560
and all kinds of, you know, avenues to go that you don't have. So I

561
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,320
thought that very interesting but why did you do this then? What, what

562
00:34:59,510 --> 00:35:01,790
you became aware of wine during

563
00:35:01,790 --> 00:35:05,630
your.com bubble and it's

564
00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:09,390
part of a cultural interesting part of life. Not

565
00:35:09,390 --> 00:35:12,990
everybody takes to it. I think everybody would and should take to it

566
00:35:12,990 --> 00:35:16,510
because it's an expression of humanity, in my opinion, expression of

567
00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:20,110
civilization. But what happened with you, it's really. An

568
00:35:20,110 --> 00:35:23,870
extension of the culture and the land and the people. Basically when

569
00:35:23,870 --> 00:35:27,430
you have a bottle of wine, the essence of the soil

570
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:31,130
it came from is in that bott. For me it

571
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:34,730
was. I was looking to kind of slow down and from the tech

572
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:38,450
world and said okay, 2017 when I

573
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:40,930
decided to seriously get into

574
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:45,730
creating vineyards and start the process. And

575
00:35:46,690 --> 00:35:50,330
I. My vision was in

576
00:35:50,330 --> 00:35:54,170
the next 15 years at

577
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:57,980
the time is to put Armenia

578
00:35:57,980 --> 00:36:01,780
on the map of the world where you can grow any types of

579
00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:05,420
wine in Armenia. It doesn't have to be dangerous. So if I'm

580
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:09,100
successful in creating high value

581
00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:14,020
wine at attractive price and when

582
00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:17,820
the world goes crazy about these types of wine and they're affordable,

583
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,580
then I think we'll get lots of big names come to

584
00:36:21,580 --> 00:36:25,300
Armenia and invest because of now they have

585
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:29,040
a proof in the pudding that you can make excellent wines.

586
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,920
And I think part of the problem with the wine industry, again I'm not

587
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,560
expert in the wine industry and I may be wrong here,

588
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,560
is that it gotten so expensive that many newcomers

589
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,960
can't afford to buy a bottle of wine in a restaurant for $90

590
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,440
just to drink it. It's just not affordable for the new generation.

591
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,480
So if we can make high quality wine at affordable prices,

592
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,560
I think there is room for growth. There is room for

593
00:36:57,980 --> 00:37:01,660
into the wine culture. There is, there

594
00:37:01,660 --> 00:37:05,500
always is. And this is why my optimism in the industry is

595
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,580
based on that, in the fact that there is

596
00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:13,300
every generation eventually comes to this glass of wine and because of

597
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:16,620
its real expression and all the things you see in the

598
00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:20,180
supermarket are launching points to get to some other point. Now

599
00:37:20,180 --> 00:37:23,780
people all stop at some, some character of wine that they

600
00:37:23,780 --> 00:37:27,100
decide this is how far as I go. But even my best friends

601
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:30,790
who, who were stuck on certain

602
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:34,590
brands in America, which are the types that have a high

603
00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:38,150
residual sugar that are on the shelf everywhere and they're very popular,

604
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:42,390
have gotten bored with them. And I had a master of wine on the

605
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:45,750
show, Tim Hanai, who talks about that, they were able to

606
00:37:46,070 --> 00:37:49,870
identify this phenomenon and trace it back

607
00:37:49,870 --> 00:37:53,630
to sugar content, that people get bored of that in their palate. And the

608
00:37:53,630 --> 00:37:57,310
complexity which comes from what you're saying, which is the terroir, that's where the

609
00:37:57,310 --> 00:38:01,060
complexity comes from. That's where the expression of humanity comes from. It's

610
00:38:01,060 --> 00:38:04,780
why we feel something when we have a properly made wine

611
00:38:05,180 --> 00:38:09,020
is because of that. Can't explain it, can't identify it,

612
00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:12,780
can't codify it. It just is. And I think that's

613
00:38:12,780 --> 00:38:16,220
the optimism of wine, whether you put it in a can. In fact, I'm going

614
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:19,900
to do a. I just found some canned wines here now, but five

615
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:23,540
years ago, maybe it was seven years ago, I did a canned wine special and

616
00:38:23,540 --> 00:38:27,300
I tasted probably 150, 200 different canned wines and found some that

617
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:30,400
actually were pretty decent wines but not meant to be drunk

618
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,280
after a year. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So just. But I found these. They're probably five

619
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,080
years old. So I'm going to do a video of me opening. I'm interested because.

620
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,520
Because I'm looking into ways to attract the Generation

621
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,760
Z into the wine. And they're drinking lots of stuff with

622
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,560
cans. And if I can make high quality wines affordable in a can

623
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,280
to get them going, to get them in, that may be a way

624
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,160
for them, for us to. But I don't know. I have not looked at.

625
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,820
We could just hash a little bit. I have noticed in our markets

626
00:39:00,820 --> 00:39:04,620
that the canned section is getting smaller. On the other hand, I

627
00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:08,460
had a guy on the show from Cornell whose job was as a PhD to

628
00:39:08,540 --> 00:39:12,220
find a better lining for the cans. You know, Coca Cola line,

629
00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:15,820
whatever they can't line the cans with for Coca Cola doesn't work with wine. The.

630
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:19,620
The eat at it. Which is amazing because

631
00:39:19,620 --> 00:39:23,020
you put a tooth in a bottle of Coke and it dissolves it. Right.

632
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,650
But. So all that's happening. I, I don't know. So this is

633
00:39:27,650 --> 00:39:31,410
a difficult decision to make as a winery owner that you're going to spend

634
00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:35,250
and decide to invest in

635
00:39:35,730 --> 00:39:39,130
the alternative packaging, the alternative methods, non

636
00:39:39,130 --> 00:39:42,969
alk. You know, that's an investment that you have to decide. Well,

637
00:39:42,969 --> 00:39:45,610
I think there's enough market there for me and I think I can build a

638
00:39:45,610 --> 00:39:49,370
brand Alexandria around a non Elk sparkler or a non

639
00:39:49,370 --> 00:39:53,130
Elk whatever. There's a whole different department, it's a whole different marketing

640
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:56,610
program, it's a whole different branding program versus

641
00:39:57,220 --> 00:40:01,020
what you've done is create quality wines at a price range that

642
00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:04,740
people can afford. And there's a sweet spot. $23 or

643
00:40:04,740 --> 00:40:08,500
$30.29. Between 20 and 30, depending on. Yeah, it's a sweet spot right

644
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:12,220
now. That's crept up over the years. But. So

645
00:40:12,220 --> 00:40:15,060
that's, that's a tough decision you have. That's something you have to sell with your

646
00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:18,620
people decide like is their marketplace. If you watch LinkedIn,

647
00:40:18,620 --> 00:40:22,200
you think that non alkal wines were the biggest things in the world but,

648
00:40:22,270 --> 00:40:25,470
but you know. But they don't taste. Oh my gosh.

649
00:40:26,510 --> 00:40:30,350
I just. Pretty decent. Yeah. I mean might as well just drink juice.

650
00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:34,070
So to me I'm not really deviating from

651
00:40:34,070 --> 00:40:37,830
my plan in terms of doing non alcoholic wine

652
00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:41,590
because really cans or whatever cans, you know, I, I want to, I

653
00:40:41,590 --> 00:40:45,230
want to wait couple of years. I want to continue studying it figuring out

654
00:40:45,550 --> 00:40:49,160
because it's really if there is way I can deliver the same quality

655
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,800
wine in different format that's more accessible to the younger

656
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,360
generation, why not? But right now I'm not ready

657
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,320
to make that decision. Plus I do have from cash flow point of

658
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,040
view I'm building a winery. I started a architectural plan

659
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,440
so I need to invest there. I also need to invest in the sales

660
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,200
and marketing channel in the US and abroad. So I'd be busy for the

661
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,780
next three, four years kind of building the, the different

662
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:19,500
channels for distribution and also making the winery. So I think at

663
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:23,260
some point in time it, it will be unwise

664
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:27,060
to ignore trends. I mean but we need to be careful because that

665
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:30,820
requires huge investment in terms of you know, bottling line in

666
00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:34,620
terms of you distract, you distract the team and,

667
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:38,460
and, and it's not, it's not clear if that's. So I'm going to stick with

668
00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:42,140
what I started. Making it affordable in the price range and making

669
00:41:42,140 --> 00:41:45,660
exceptionally good wine and we can go from there. Yeah, I think that's wise.

670
00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:49,650
Yeah, you're right. The investment to do cans has been huge. I used to sell

671
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:52,850
copiers in the old days to the people that used to can seven up.

672
00:41:53,330 --> 00:41:57,130
You know, those machines were huge and much different now. But there's

673
00:41:57,130 --> 00:42:00,890
a woman out now. Her name is Abby Bogle. She has produced a company

674
00:42:00,890 --> 00:42:04,570
called Small Lot Bottles and she will take on short

675
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:08,290
runs and put things in cans, put things in 100ml

676
00:42:08,290 --> 00:42:12,010
bottles, all kinds of different formats. And it's kind of a brilliant little

677
00:42:12,010 --> 00:42:15,720
thing for winers to experiment with the format size

678
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,560
to see if they want to go further into a larger production. Let's,

679
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,360
let's, let's talk about that. You're building a winery. I don't know if you know

680
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,160
that. My wife's cousin is James Tufan. That's James is

681
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,680
a very good friend. He says he's Sandra's. My wife's a Tufan.

682
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,120
I know that her dad's

683
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:39,090
first cousin is James's Father, I think I had him on the

684
00:42:39,090 --> 00:42:42,930
show a couple times. And so he started that wine tourism

685
00:42:43,410 --> 00:42:47,170
hotel. I'll tell you a quick story. It's crazy in. In

686
00:42:47,170 --> 00:42:50,370
Ada anybody suspended it right now. But let me tell you this really crazy story.

687
00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:53,929
We were in Paris and we decided to jump over to

688
00:42:53,929 --> 00:42:57,770
Porto. And we're sitting in a cafe in Porto. We

689
00:42:57,770 --> 00:43:01,090
hear this. People speak Armenian. My wife introduces herself in Armenian.

690
00:43:01,410 --> 00:43:04,830
Turns out that guy was the architect on the Adani

691
00:43:04,830 --> 00:43:08,630
Hotel that James is building. Yes. We're

692
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:12,150
in Portugal. We go back to Paris for a few days. We go to a

693
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:15,830
different cafe, we're sitting in a different place. Another couple

694
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:19,629
speaking Armenians. William Saroyan. Two Armenians get together anywhere in

695
00:43:19,629 --> 00:43:23,150
the world. Right. And he worked for James on that

696
00:43:23,150 --> 00:43:26,950
hotel as well as an architect. Is that bizarre? It's

697
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:30,550
a bizarre. Right now nobody's working that hotel. So let's talk about that

698
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:34,380
wine tourism. I've had Lillet Lila Goyan on the show.

699
00:43:34,860 --> 00:43:38,660
I've had Zara Moranyan on the show. And we're talking about. And I think

700
00:43:38,660 --> 00:43:42,420
this is a firm approach all over the world, not just

701
00:43:42,420 --> 00:43:46,220
in Armenia. One of the things that wine has, and you've

702
00:43:46,220 --> 00:43:49,780
already said it, when they go travel, you look for wineries. Wine

703
00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:52,860
tourism is a huge thing. And I think it has a lot to do going

704
00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:56,580
forward with the experience of wine. Like when I

705
00:43:56,580 --> 00:44:00,290
take friends on the road, I go. So we go to wineries.

706
00:44:00,290 --> 00:44:03,850
That's what I do. Why wouldn't I? And I think

707
00:44:04,090 --> 00:44:06,970
travelers all over the world are seeking that. Is that what you

708
00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:11,570
want to do with this winery? And is there a concerted

709
00:44:11,570 --> 00:44:14,890
effort in the Armenian trade to create wine tourism?

710
00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:18,690
Definitely, there is an interest to pool

711
00:44:18,690 --> 00:44:22,370
resources between the different winemakers to promote Armenia

712
00:44:22,370 --> 00:44:25,530
as a winemaking region and not each wineries,

713
00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:30,020
you know, promoting their own because it's very, very expensive to.

714
00:44:30,180 --> 00:44:34,020
To promote Armenia through one winery or two

715
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:37,380
wineries. I'm glad to hear that. So.

716
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,860
But we have not succeeded yet. And we don't have the necessary

717
00:44:41,860 --> 00:44:45,500
budget to. To promote Armenia as a

718
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:49,140
wine growing region. So it probably requires 10 to 15 times

719
00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:52,820
more resource allocation than it is today. So it's

720
00:44:52,820 --> 00:44:56,620
something. Zara has been struggling with it and I don't have a

721
00:44:56,620 --> 00:44:59,380
solution to that. It has to come from the government. The government

722
00:45:00,420 --> 00:45:01,780
says the right things, but.

723
00:45:04,020 --> 00:45:06,580
And the time comes to put money in the budget, it's not there.

724
00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:11,540
The winery I am

725
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:15,380
building or will build right now I just have plans and

726
00:45:15,380 --> 00:45:19,220
those plans are going through modification. So the wineries, the winery

727
00:45:19,220 --> 00:45:22,660
I will build will be the closest winery to Yerevan, the capital.

728
00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:27,060
Oh, and closer to Boskovice, closer to anybody

729
00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:30,540
else. So it's going to be minimalist design,

730
00:45:31,340 --> 00:45:35,180
Napa style winery where people can have tasting. I

731
00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:38,979
have restaurants, I will have, you know, gastronomic event, wine

732
00:45:38,979 --> 00:45:42,700
pairing, have a conference room for corporate event. Wow,

733
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:46,460
excellent. It has a prime location.

734
00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:50,270
Not just because it's the proximity to Iran is like

735
00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:53,830
15km. So within half an hour you can reach my winery.

736
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:58,270
The idea is to attract all the day tourists that come to

737
00:45:58,270 --> 00:46:01,830
Armenia for three, four days, five days, six days, and they want to have a

738
00:46:01,830 --> 00:46:05,590
taste of Armenia, the winery. They will come to my winery because they don't

739
00:46:05,590 --> 00:46:08,870
have half a day or full day to go. Armas is two hours,

740
00:46:09,350 --> 00:46:13,110
armas is an hour. But, you know, but once you put everything together,

741
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:17,190
then three, four, five hours. Right.

742
00:46:17,590 --> 00:46:21,320
So. So my idea is not idea, it's just because

743
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,040
of the location. I would be attracting lots of

744
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,880
tourists, business tourists, day tourists to come and get a

745
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,720
taste of Armenia. So that's kind of a plus on my side because I have

746
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:36,360
also three different vineyards, three different terroirs.

747
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,840
One of my ideas is to grow irony

748
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,800
in three different terroirs and then have our visitors

749
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,850
taste R and D from the same viltage from three different terroirs. Again,

750
00:46:47,850 --> 00:46:51,330
expression of the terroir. Sure. That's a great idea. Yeah. And

751
00:46:52,530 --> 00:46:55,970
so that's kind of what I'm doing with

752
00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:59,490
Alexandria Winery in terms of promoting tourism and

753
00:46:59,570 --> 00:47:03,290
experience. And I agree. James

754
00:47:03,290 --> 00:47:06,610
and I had lots of conversation about, about

755
00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:10,490
wine tourism and because of the war, unfortunately,

756
00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:14,190
the whole project got, you know, stuck

757
00:47:14,190 --> 00:47:17,390
a little bit. And it's very close to the border.

758
00:47:17,950 --> 00:47:21,750
I think James, you know, I cannot speak for himself, but he wants

759
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:24,870
to have some guarantee from the government or, you know, that, you know, there will

760
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:28,110
be peace agreement finally and then he can go, continue, build.

761
00:47:28,830 --> 00:47:32,590
You know, he. The first time, the first time

762
00:47:32,590 --> 00:47:36,310
we went to army was 2007. Wines were still undrinkable. He had the

763
00:47:36,310 --> 00:47:39,350
Armenian pride issue. You had to tell the guy was really good, but he really

764
00:47:39,350 --> 00:47:43,140
lived in a drinkable. And. And I was talking to Miriam Sakatalian on

765
00:47:43,140 --> 00:47:46,980
the show and she said, you know, I tell

766
00:47:46,980 --> 00:47:49,820
them when they come in and bring a wine that this is no good or

767
00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:53,460
this needs this before it's palatable. And I said, that's so interesting because in

768
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:57,020
America I would never do that. Even after 35 years of tasting every

769
00:47:57,020 --> 00:48:00,460
Tuesday, I would still, if the winemaker was in or the

770
00:48:00,460 --> 00:48:04,260
winer maybe, because It's a more mature market. If

771
00:48:04,260 --> 00:48:07,780
the winemaker or the. If it was a

772
00:48:07,780 --> 00:48:11,180
representative, no problem. But if the proprietor or the winemaker was there, I would just

773
00:48:11,180 --> 00:48:14,300
tell him, this is very interesting, you know, and I would just fluff it off.

774
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:17,940
Because these guys made a huge effort in Armenia. They're just starting in some

775
00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:21,539
cases, and some of the stuff still isn't that great. But, you

776
00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:25,220
know, anyway, the point I was going to make was I

777
00:48:25,220 --> 00:48:28,620
had a. A studio in Civil Nets Place, downtown

778
00:48:28,620 --> 00:48:32,030
Yerevan, and I saw James Mariam

779
00:48:32,430 --> 00:48:36,030
and Vahe Kushkarian, who I've known since the 90s.

780
00:48:37,310 --> 00:48:41,070
So I had never met James before. And I knew

781
00:48:41,070 --> 00:48:44,910
he was a New York guy. And somehow my sister. What was this?

782
00:48:45,310 --> 00:48:49,150
This was two trips ago, so probably like four years ago. Okay, three,

783
00:48:49,150 --> 00:48:52,870
four years ago. So I shook hands. I know he

784
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:56,670
knows I'm married to his cousin, and I know that my sister and

785
00:48:56,670 --> 00:49:00,260
him crossed paths and in. In Princeton or New Jersey or somewhere in New

786
00:49:00,260 --> 00:49:03,820
York. So he says, yeah. I go, so nice to meet you. Let's talk a

787
00:49:03,820 --> 00:49:07,180
little bit before we turn on the mics. And I said something. And he goes,

788
00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:11,260
let me tell you something. The biggest regret of my life

789
00:49:11,740 --> 00:49:13,340
is not marrying your sister.

790
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:19,180
And I'm like, where did that come from?

791
00:49:19,340 --> 00:49:23,180
I had no idea that that was even in anybody's mind.

792
00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:26,220
My sister's or, you know, I didn't know who he was. It didn't matter. But

793
00:49:26,220 --> 00:49:29,900
I thought, wow, what an interesting way to start a conversation. So.

794
00:49:30,060 --> 00:49:33,380
Because when we were down that way, I actually got out of the car and

795
00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:37,060
tasted wine at one of the kiosks, you know, one of the women selling wine.

796
00:49:37,060 --> 00:49:40,900
Oh, this is like an arne. Yes. And that's kind of where

797
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:44,700
he's. Yeah, yeah, we, we. I think we raised

798
00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:47,980
funds through one Armenia, which James and I are board member,

799
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:51,740
founding board member with Patrick Sarkisian. We wanted to

800
00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:55,300
promote the villagers to make local wines. So we

801
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,070
created a. We fundraise and we created a kiosks for

802
00:49:59,070 --> 00:50:02,670
them to go and showcase that. So that's probably where you guys stop. Yeah.

803
00:50:02,670 --> 00:50:06,470
So I was. And I'm with the director

804
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:10,470
and producer of these things I produced. I'll send you the link

805
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:14,470
from Civil Net. And he goes, you have to taste them. I go, come on,

806
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:18,030
man. Now, my dad taught me early on, you taste

807
00:50:18,030 --> 00:50:21,870
everything you can get your hands on. Whether you smell problems with it

808
00:50:21,870 --> 00:50:24,870
or not, you just gotta taste it because you'll never learn the flaws without tasting

809
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:28,410
the flaws. And I taste this wine, I go, you Know what?

810
00:50:29,050 --> 00:50:32,850
This stuff is okay. This is okay. Yeah, it was no major flaws.

811
00:50:32,850 --> 00:50:36,610
It was, you know, it wasn't exciting, but it was, I was, I could drink

812
00:50:36,610 --> 00:50:40,450
it probably wouldn't. The funny part was it was in a

813
00:50:40,450 --> 00:50:44,050
two liter Coke bottle. Yes. And I said, you know, I want to buy some

814
00:50:44,050 --> 00:50:47,010
of that. I don't need two liters. So she went in the back and brought

815
00:50:47,010 --> 00:50:49,690
out a 1 liter coke bottle and put a funnel in and poured the wine

816
00:50:49,690 --> 00:50:53,290
in. I go, wow, that's interesting. I remember I was in

817
00:50:53,290 --> 00:50:57,090
Artsakh in 2018 before the war and I was doing kind

818
00:50:57,090 --> 00:51:00,880
of have jeeping and hiking in remote areas and we had

819
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,680
like, we, we went to the supermarket, got wine. It was in

820
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,520
like two liters in. Yeah, it was fantastic. It was indomie

821
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,240
syringe. It was fantastic. So I know we paid like two or three dollars.

822
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:15,960
It was amazing. Yeah, it's not bad. Well, you know, we're almost out of time

823
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,520
here and it should, we could probably talk longer. But

824
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,980
what, what is the plan then in the US we were

825
00:51:24,980 --> 00:51:28,380
talking about the issues

826
00:51:28,620 --> 00:51:31,660
and I don't know if they're worldwide. Maybe you can reflect on that.

827
00:51:32,380 --> 00:51:35,980
You're aware of what happens here. We've talked about

828
00:51:35,980 --> 00:51:39,820
the consolidation of distributors, the three tier system.

829
00:51:40,620 --> 00:51:44,420
When I was in Puglia, Italy three weeks ago, I did a

830
00:51:44,420 --> 00:51:48,260
podcast with a wine called Amano. I looked on my database, I tasted

831
00:51:48,260 --> 00:51:51,870
it it a few years ago. He's completely pulled out of

832
00:51:51,870 --> 00:51:55,670
America, just doesn't want to deal with it anymore because it

833
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:59,350
was just his marketplace. The amount of effort he was taking

834
00:51:59,350 --> 00:52:01,990
the hit in revenue. But he was, his margins were better.

835
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:06,630
Have you seen that elsewhere? Well,

836
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:11,590
I'm right now selling in Armenia and the US I

837
00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:15,340
have small distributor in Russia, but Russia

838
00:52:15,740 --> 00:52:19,500
for the foreseeable future is not a market for us because they're looking

839
00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:23,140
for cheap alcohol and. Alexandria, not necessarily Armenia.

840
00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:26,721
Yeah, there are lots of Armenian wise like for 2, 3,

841
00:52:26,812 --> 00:52:30,620
$4, you know it's being shipped to Russia and that's fine, but that's

842
00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:33,820
not really my market. The

843
00:52:34,460 --> 00:52:38,260
buying power is not there. Many Russians are not going to restaurants just

844
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:42,070
because of the war. And there's you know, inflation high

845
00:52:42,070 --> 00:52:45,670
inflation. So it's going to take five, six years before it recovers in my

846
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:49,470
view. So my focus is really in the US because it's

847
00:52:49,470 --> 00:52:52,550
a big market. My price point is attractive.

848
00:52:53,350 --> 00:52:57,190
I understand the US market. I have lots

849
00:52:57,190 --> 00:53:00,630
of contacts and so far I was able to

850
00:53:01,030 --> 00:53:04,150
convince four or five high level

851
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:06,950
Armenian liquor shops here. Mission

852
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:11,990
Wines of Armenia and Remedy to carry my wine. There's a new

853
00:53:12,690 --> 00:53:16,370
winery wine shop called guinea and Glendale. They also,

854
00:53:16,770 --> 00:53:20,570
they carry all my wines and. And he was very, very happy. Of

855
00:53:20,570 --> 00:53:24,250
course. I'm looking for distributors. I do

856
00:53:24,250 --> 00:53:27,490
have one distributor sign up in Virginia,

857
00:53:27,970 --> 00:53:31,490
International Sellers. So I sent the first pallet

858
00:53:31,970 --> 00:53:35,650
two months ago and they're selling. And so I'm hopeful that will

859
00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:39,450
expand. I have another distributor. I signed a small distributor

860
00:53:39,450 --> 00:53:42,930
in New Jersey, but that shipment will happen next year in March.

861
00:53:43,450 --> 00:53:46,970
I'm working with a distributor in Houston, Texas. They have two.

862
00:53:48,570 --> 00:53:52,170
So they're interested in our wines. We agree on a price and

863
00:53:52,170 --> 00:53:55,770
then I'm waiting for an order. And now I'm looking

864
00:53:55,770 --> 00:53:59,370
to expand not just

865
00:53:59,930 --> 00:54:03,530
where Armenians really live,

866
00:54:03,690 --> 00:54:04,970
but throughout the US

867
00:54:07,530 --> 00:54:11,030
One of the other ideas I have is to have a, a

868
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:14,870
Shopify type store and Y web where I can ship wines through a,

869
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:18,110
you know, using somebody's else network through different

870
00:54:18,270 --> 00:54:21,550
locations so people start tasting because I believe

871
00:54:22,110 --> 00:54:25,590
the wines Alexander is making are attractively priced. They're

872
00:54:25,590 --> 00:54:29,390
excellent wines. And, and people will bite. They

873
00:54:29,390 --> 00:54:32,270
are. I thought so like I said. And plus, not only that, they were,

874
00:54:32,990 --> 00:54:36,510
they were new world character. That was important.

875
00:54:38,270 --> 00:54:41,950
Well, fascinating. And I know we'll do this again. Thank you. Well,

876
00:54:42,030 --> 00:54:45,030
I think we'll do it in, in a year. We'll see where we are if

877
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:48,510
you have the time. And yeah, yeah, it is a slow industry. Right. One year

878
00:54:48,510 --> 00:54:52,190
is one harvest in this guy. Well, so one of the things I learned

879
00:54:52,190 --> 00:54:55,910
coming into the industry, like being more patient because in the tech industry things

880
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:59,230
move fast. Like in, you know, I send an email to somebody

881
00:54:59,550 --> 00:55:03,070
within half a day, a day, maximum two days, I get a

882
00:55:03,070 --> 00:55:06,830
reply. In this industry, I send an email and I get probably

883
00:55:06,830 --> 00:55:09,700
like a month, two or from. You never know from. Yeah, you never know. It

884
00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:13,500
goes. And sometimes it shows up. And so it's very, very

885
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:17,220
interesting. The tempo is very different. That was but one of the greatest business

886
00:55:17,220 --> 00:55:20,700
lessons I ever learned. When I first started this, I was a punk kid. I

887
00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:23,980
didn't know what I was doing. This is 1975. That picture when I was working

888
00:55:23,980 --> 00:55:27,340
in my dad's wine shop. But there was a

889
00:55:27,340 --> 00:55:31,140
importer, his name was Henry Vandervoort. He was a. He was

890
00:55:31,140 --> 00:55:34,960
a Border Lays. He owned a winery, a chateau at the

891
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,560
time. And I didn't know how

892
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,400
much pedigree this guy had in as a human.

893
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,520
I just knew him as a guy trying to sell me wine. And the company

894
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,080
was called Burkhard Vandevoord. He did a lot of Rhone wines. A lot of Bordeaux,

895
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,040
had his own brands. And one day

896
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:57,040
he wanted to sell me a wine called Lipuyi, which was a wine

897
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,840
that he vented for Chinese food. So it was recently converted to me to base

898
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,400
that kind of thing. And I. And I was just being a punk

899
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,520
kid, you know, buyer. And I wouldn't return his calls. I would

900
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,240
only when I felt like it. He finally called my dad. Now, my dad

901
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,840
was Cairo born, English bred. You know, he was a very proper guy.

902
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,600
And in French, they spoke in French. He says,

903
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,320
your son needs to give me the courtesy of a response. Yes.

904
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,920
And that's one of the greatest lessons I ever learned. It was from a wine

905
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,390
person. Because whether the response is, yes, no,

906
00:56:31,390 --> 00:56:35,150
maybe, or I'm thinking about it, it can be. It can be short. I'm

907
00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:38,910
not interested. Thank you. Yeah, good luck. I mean, it doesn't take much

908
00:56:38,910 --> 00:56:42,630
effort, right? No, it's a response. I also highly regard people who respond,

909
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:45,710
you know, it's okay, you're not interested. Just say. Just say something.

910
00:56:46,190 --> 00:56:50,030
And I brought that up the other day with Bartholomew Broadbent, whose father

911
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:52,990
was one of the greatest wine critics in the world. And he looked at me

912
00:56:52,990 --> 00:56:55,460
and he goes, you know, I can't respond to everything thing. I said, well,

913
00:56:56,340 --> 00:56:59,700
okay, but the ones. That matter, you have to respond.

914
00:57:00,580 --> 00:57:04,260
Yeah, there are people trying to sell your product. You never met them,

915
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:08,620
you have a relationship with a business colleague, then

916
00:57:08,620 --> 00:57:12,140
you need to respond. You need to respond with that. We'll say cheers and thank

917
00:57:12,140 --> 00:57:13,420
you for coming. Cheers. Thank you so much.