Americans Don't Make Sake. Unless You Are Ben Bell. Unreal Story.

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What is the biggest factor for making quality sake

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or making sake the way it is at any level of quality? I think number

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one is technique. It's skill. So this is a

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craft in the way that you know, painting a picture, that's an art.

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Of course there's a lot of science when it comes to making sake or any

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other alcoholic beverage, but it's a combination of those things. There's science, there's art,

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there's craft coming together, there's skill. You're

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making style choices. Sit back and grab a

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glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Ben Bell all the way out

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in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a

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listen to a show I just put out. It's with Emily

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Steckenborn. Sounds Chinese, right? Well she's the

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LVMH representative for the ambassador as I called her

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in China. Incredible insight and career path that she's carved out

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for herself. And have a listen to that. But not why we're here today to

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have a conversation with Ben Bell. I was going to say

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Big Ben Bell, but I say Ben Bell of Origami

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Sake in Hot Springs, Arkansas. He's the co

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founder. Welcome to the show. Hey Paul, thank you so much for having

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me. And just as a little note, I'm kind of

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a short guy so I don't get Big Ben very much.

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Maybe I got one more gross for it coming. I'm just fingers, fingers crossed.

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One of my, my son in law's best friend is Ben and he's about

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6, 5. So whenever, whenever I say Ben

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I think of Big Ben. Anyway. Yeah, you know, a real big, a real big

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Ben. Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. This is, you know, your, your

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PR firm reached out to me and I thought this is so interesting because here's

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this young man making saki in America which is,

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you know, I've seen, I've had a few American sakis before.

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But then Hot Springs, Arkansas, you know, triggered a thought

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here. But we had a, we had a nice recall about what we were doing.

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I said this is not your first rodeo in the wine, wine

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or spirits world. Where did you come from? Yeah, that's right. I

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mean I'm an Arkansas native and I

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got a job in the drinks business. I guess the way you normally do when

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you start out, which is you think you're, you're doing something else with your life

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and then you get a job at a liquor store or get a job at

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a restaurant and, and then I think that just hooks certain people. And

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it hooked me on the wine side. And you know, after a few

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years go by, it ends up becoming your career. So I did get a

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job for what became Arkansas's largest retailer,

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Shout out to Colonial Wines and Spirits in Little Rock. The. They had

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always had a great wine selection and what really hooked me

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into wine, and that was my first love, was

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how it could be from being from a small town in Arkansas. This was my

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way to touch different countries, different cultures around the world. And of

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course, you know, you enter it through those wines on the shelf, but then you

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get to food, you get to cuisine, and then you go out to culture, then

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you go out to history. So that was, that was really my first love

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in the drinks business. And it was the first thing I started getting professional

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certifications in. So I, I did really start as a wine specialist and that

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was about 20 years ago. You know, that, that's shocking really

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frankly for me because, you know, the. Usually it's the

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coasts, you know, the east and the west coast that are wine related. New York

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has a specific level of wine shops and

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they're one on every corner and they have a vast variety of

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imported wines. And of course California, the hotbed of American wine. But

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here in the mid part of the country hasn't

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been part of the wine culture really. And

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now you're saying 20 years ago you were doing this. No, that's

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right. Yeah. I, you know, I think in terms of, certainly in

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terms of production, there's not a lot that is

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happening in the middle of the US But I think in terms of sales and

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interest, you know, of course we are right next to Texas, that's a neighboring state.

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Texas is a heck of a fine wine state and has been for quite some

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time. They really, you know, of course Texas is an economic

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powerhouse, but you know, craft

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spirits, craft beer, fine wine, it's been a great market for that for a

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while. And I really feel like, you know, Internet's been around

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for a while now too. Great. There's always great books to get your hands on.

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My first book was Windows on the World by Kevin Zarley. And then I got

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into the wine Bible not long after that. Really, to me, access to the

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knowledge wasn't so hard. And as long as you had, you know, enough good

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distributors who were bringing some good things to pick from, you could put together

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a good shop. And thankfully the owners of the shop that, that I worked

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at, they met In Germany they had a love of German wine.

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They knew European wines very well. So they had this unus

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unusual interest, I guess in really high quality

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wine and they wanted to show it off in Little Rock. So that was very

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lucky for me. That's interesting. And you're talking about

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cuisine and food pairings, which I have, I have a

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very peculiar opinion of food pairing that sort

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of substantiated by master of wine Tim Hani, I had on the

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show. But you know, let's face that.

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Also the Midwest is very specific in this food

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thing. One of the things that's always interesting to me in the American food

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scene is that, you know, you can get now

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Texas chili and in New Hampshire and you can get

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New England clam chowder in Los Angeles. And that wasn't always the case. You know,

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the freeways, transportation kind of changed that. And

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so the regionality of food sort of blurred all the

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lines. But, but back then at 20 years ago,

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was there a cuisine movement? Was there food? I mean it happened in LA in

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the 80s, but I don't know what happened. So I really

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think if you look, this is a thing I've thought about for a long

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time. You know, what is the, what's the food

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identity of Arkansas? Do we have a famous thing

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that, that we are specifically known for? And I think you look around

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surrounding states and you could pick out quite a few things. Texas,

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of course, has Tex Mex, great brisket. Louisiana,

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to the south, has Cajun creole food. Some of the best food in the

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world in my opinion. My mom's Cajun, so I guess I'm biased. But I think

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some of that food is easily some of the best in the world. The

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Mississippi, Missouri, Kansas City, you got some

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great, some great barbecue. And then on the drink side, I'm going to add another

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neighboring state, Tennessee. Obviously this is the home of Jack Daniels and some

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very fine Tennessee whiskey. So there are famous

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food and drinks all around this state.

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But Arkansas to me never really had something that had a strong

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identity like that. Now I will add just a detail. This is, this will be

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probably a surprise for you and a lot of people listening. I know

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Arkansas, if you look at it on a map, it looks like a Midwest state.

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But I will tell you from a food perspective and culturally, it is definitely a

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southern state. So in general, if you want to just make this large

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bracket of southern food and or so we're talking a

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chicken fried steak, biscuits and gravy, shrimp and

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grit, this is all very much the food that you will find In Arkansas at

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a lot of, at a lot of places. And this is what folks like me

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would, would grow up with. So I do love that fruit. But it's not very

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specific to Arkansas. This is just the south generally. But the idea of

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doing sake here was maybe something that

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we could do that is based off of something that's. I don't know if

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unique to Arkansas is the right word, but we're, you know, we're the, we're the

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top producer of rice in the United States. And I do think that's a bit

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of, that's a bit of education right there too. You know, maybe this

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could be something that, you know, Louisiana's. No surrounding state is doing

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this rice producing states. Now California is the

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number two rice producing state. Definitely has quite a bit of sake

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being made there, whether people know it or not. But that was

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the impetus for what could Arkansas be about when

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it comes to something that we can show off on the food and drink

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side. That's a great segue into the sake conversation.

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Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, to me, it was also, by the

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way, my like life segue from wine into sake.

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Why make this move? Why are, you know, why would

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me as an Arkansan even really be thinking about sake? I have no

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connection to Japan. I also, this is a question I get quite a bit.

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I didn't grow up watching anime or, you know,

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Yeah, a real strong like, you know, I didn't kind of come to

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it that way. To me, it really was still through the wine shop. It was,

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you know, I had gone through, I think, my first level

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quartermaster psalms exam and was getting more

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into certifications. Got my certified

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wine educator, certified specialist of

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spirits. And so

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I love, you know, a big range of categories. And I always liked the oddballs.

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I always wanted to learn about wines from unusual, you know, regions.

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And so I love, you know, some, some, some Zweigelt from

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Austria or let's say like, you know, wines from

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Juro were starting to be interesting at least in, in terms of being

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on the, on, on my radar. And

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let me stop because you, you're covering a lot of stuff on

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it. We should stop and break it down a little bit. One of them, one

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of the points is, you know, you, again, you're not in a

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hotbed of, of wine and spirits territory about Lynchburg, Tennessee

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maybe, but you know, you, you set upon studying

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and learning and that's, you know, that's the beginning of this type

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of process and that inspires you. Once you read one book,

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if you Read the. The wine Bible or you. You picked up some

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periodicals and now the Internet, of course, has tons of stuff. And that.

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That seemed interesting to you. That's like, wow, this is. Or was it the

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combination of being in a shop, tasting wines with the owners who had a lot

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of passion for doing this, that all of a sudden it clicked?

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The. I think it just let my. Being in a

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place like that just let my imagination run wild. And there

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were enough people pulling enough things. You know,

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I wouldn't have known Zweigelt really if somebody wasn't

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bringing. Bringing it in via an Arkansas distributor. So, you

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know, shout out to whoever was bringing it in back then. I don't even remember

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at this point. It's been a long time. But, you know, the. It

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was having just. I, you know, I think a lot of this really comes down

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to the people. If you get into a lot of these stories, there were the

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right people who were interested enough to make a thing happen, bring

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something in that's interesting, and if they weren't there, then maybe it wouldn't

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happen. And I think that continues into the sake story.

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It. It all got me where there

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was enough things that, you know, I've always been kind of a

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dreamer. And, you know, I went to a. I went to a boarding

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school that was math and science focused, but I love the arts, too. I play

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music and I love learning. I love digging into stuff. And

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to me, there was just a lot of stuff to dig into. So it. It

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really played into my. My strength and my desire to learn. Let

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me. Let me take that one more step, and then we'll get back into the

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Saki conversation. That's. That is. I just was playing back

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a podcast with a gentleman named Chad Ludington, PhD, two or

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three masters and mostly in history, but now he's become this wine

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historian. And the way he was very articulate, he was very

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conscientious about who he was talking to. You know, me.

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Like, who is this? What is this guy know? He, you know, he's a lecturer,

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right? By trade, he's a professor. And I thought, you know, I wonder if that's

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the part of wine which is now the lip service we're seeing on the Internet.

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A lot of. And LinkedIn and social networking. You know, we have to change the

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language, we have to change this. We have to make it more appealable to the

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general masses. Wine has always been the same.

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Saki's got a renaissance here, and we'll talk about that in a minute.

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But maybe that's the. That's the

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positive part of wine, this academia, this, this idea. You can read about

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it and every time you read something you want to read more about it and

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that's the part. But that's also could be the part that turns people off because

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it can be very academic and very snooty

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and aristocratic, which I don't think it is

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personally. It's just how you perceive it when it comes down to it.

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Yeah, I, you know, I agree. Of course, I used to sell a lot of

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wine and I'd sell, look, I loaded up a lot of trunks with cases of

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Franzia. Also would sell some first and second growth

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Bordeaux. That's the job, right? And I think

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actually I had a great co worker who kind of, I think I was maybe

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up in my own head about, you know, what wine should be and how

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to talk about it and maybe was a bit snooty myself and I had a

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good coworker. I'll give another shout out to my old

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friend Jimmy Hamilton, who really put me on the right path of hey, when the

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customer comes, when a customer comes in, you need to just listen to them and

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whatever they're looking for, you need to help them find the best version of that.

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Sometimes that is a case of Franzia, sometimes that is a super

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obscure wine from the outside of Rhone or something like

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that. It doesn't really matter. And then, you know,

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I always viewed my job as to, from then on

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to be the connector. You know, I'm going to connect people to what

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seems like, you know, everyone who comes in is a blank slate.

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And my job is to make things simple and,

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you know, get them to what they would probably enjoy based on what

224
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they're saying, kind of the fastest and the easiest and make it

225
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approachable. You know, if you're putting up barriers, you know, for me, from

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a sales perspective, you're going to lose, you're going to lose a sale or you

227
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might lose a customer. Don't put up barriers, make it easier, make it more

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approachable. And I'll add into that. Can you tell a story

229
00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:49,332
about it? Can you tell good stories about, you know, the things that you're, that

230
00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:52,804
you're talking about the place, if you know the place, if you did that studying

231
00:13:52,852 --> 00:13:56,610
of, you know, the place, the people who's making it. You got some stories there.

232
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If you have some personal stories, that's great too. The way something

233
00:14:00,538 --> 00:14:04,306
is made. I've sold, sold a lot of scotch for Milo by talking

234
00:14:04,338 --> 00:14:07,790
about the process of how it's made, right? So

235
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to Me, any one of those things could be something to kind of latch

236
00:14:12,562 --> 00:14:16,178
onto. But to your point, I think wine can be both ways.

237
00:14:16,354 --> 00:14:20,082
Sometimes people want to just recite a bunch of statistics like

238
00:14:20,186 --> 00:14:24,022
tonnage per acre and just really, you know,

239
00:14:24,046 --> 00:14:27,862
rattle off a lot of numbers and a lot of terms. And to

240
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me, it's. I know that that works for, for some people

241
00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:35,366
because if it didn't, then why would every salesperson, you know, be

242
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memorizing these things? But to me, it's. It should be more the

243
00:14:39,102 --> 00:14:42,902
opposite. It should be more story focused, people focused, make it

244
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more approachable, make it simpler. And I think

245
00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:50,238
that's the way to go about kind of all these categories.

246
00:14:50,414 --> 00:14:54,190
So you said something really important. Two things. One

247
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was, yes, it's consumerism. My wine has always been about the

248
00:14:57,686 --> 00:15:01,342
consumer. And so that's how the trends change. And we're in the middle of some

249
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trends changing now. But you also said they're very important. That, which is my

250
00:15:05,174 --> 00:15:08,782
trade. I grew up selling stuff. I sold for

251
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Xerox, I sold software, I sold wine. You know,

252
00:15:12,278 --> 00:15:16,092
so selling things has its. A technique,

253
00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:18,796
so to speak. Not that you're trying to hustle somebody, but you're trying to understand

254
00:15:18,868 --> 00:15:22,540
what their need is. And sometimes they don't tell you exactly what their need is.

255
00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:26,316
And sometimes it's implied, and sometimes it's explicit. And if you're just a.

256
00:15:26,388 --> 00:15:30,220
Whether you're in sales of, of a widget or whether you're selling wine

257
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:34,092
on the floor, if you're listening to the customer and

258
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you're just satisfying the needs of the customer based on, you know, what you have

259
00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:41,004
in your quiver to do that. And I think I get that gets lost

260
00:15:41,092 --> 00:15:44,870
sometimes, Ian, I think the details you're talking about, tons per

261
00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:48,614
acre and the, and the micronutrient exchange, the tap root and that's.

262
00:15:48,662 --> 00:15:52,502
That stuff's the part that's intimidating. But you're not

263
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going to change somebody's palate while you're standing on the floor of a restaurant, liquor

264
00:15:55,734 --> 00:15:59,094
store, or a wine shop. And so you sell them what they need. And I

265
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had a wine. One of my managers at one of my shops years ago was

266
00:16:02,766 --> 00:16:06,054
a pro at that. You know, what are you drinking

267
00:16:06,102 --> 00:16:09,622
today? And then he'd guide them to the proper thing, and

268
00:16:09,646 --> 00:16:13,430
then are you interested in moving ahead on that, on your palate to the next

269
00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:16,850
level? Yes or no? No, I just want what I usually drink. Okay, great. No

270
00:16:16,890 --> 00:16:20,594
problem. I'll sell you what I have. So it's important. But

271
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in the world of sake, which I will Tell you that neither

272
00:16:24,626 --> 00:16:28,210
my wine shops that I've had here had had sake

273
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in them. And I live in Southern California. I live near, you

274
00:16:32,122 --> 00:16:35,842
know, right near Los Angeles. It was never a thing, but

275
00:16:35,866 --> 00:16:39,426
it has had a renaissance, I'm gonna say 20 years

276
00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:42,684
maybe that, that the idea of premium sake

277
00:16:42,812 --> 00:16:46,540
emerged, that there's different levels of sake and that

278
00:16:46,580 --> 00:16:50,268
the brewmaster's job. And I'm gonna, I made that name up. I'm not sure that's

279
00:16:50,284 --> 00:16:53,564
the exact name is rather

280
00:16:53,612 --> 00:16:57,452
important. So from your floor sales at

281
00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:01,276
a wine shop into the appreciation and then now developing and

282
00:17:01,348 --> 00:17:05,020
manufacturing sake, what that transition occurred because it

283
00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:08,760
also was fascinating. Yeah, absolutely.

284
00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:12,932
So the first bottle of sake that wasn't, you

285
00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:16,596
know, some cheap mass produced sake, which the shop that I worked at

286
00:17:16,668 --> 00:17:20,388
had. What I'm going to say is kind of the usual suspects of sake that

287
00:17:20,444 --> 00:17:24,180
brands that you would get at a sushi or hibachi place all over

288
00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:28,052
the U.S. you know, we had those bottles and I

289
00:17:28,076 --> 00:17:31,572
didn't think much about them. I've had them before and I've had good times at

290
00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:35,390
a sushi place having some. But

291
00:17:36,010 --> 00:17:39,070
I've had some fuzzy times also with those. But

292
00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:43,330
yeah, the. But you know, it wasn't something that made me think, oh, you know,

293
00:17:43,370 --> 00:17:46,610
sake is interesting. It's a category that I really want to, you know, learn or

294
00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:50,402
explore. But then one a bottle came into the

295
00:17:50,426 --> 00:17:53,954
shop about 16, 17 years ago, something like that,

296
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and it was. The price was higher. I'd never seen this brand

297
00:17:57,594 --> 00:18:01,410
before and I was intrigued. Like I said, I like the, the to

298
00:18:01,450 --> 00:18:04,230
dig into the oddballs and see what'

299
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,656
and this was certainly an oddball to me. And I'll

300
00:18:08,688 --> 00:18:12,320
tell you, look, I took it home. This probably go into my not

301
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,176
strong connection to anything Japanese really. It looks like white wine

302
00:18:16,208 --> 00:18:19,024
to me. So I chilled it in the fridge and I put it in a

303
00:18:19,032 --> 00:18:22,304
white wine glass and that's how I drink it. Yeah. And I will tell you,

304
00:18:22,392 --> 00:18:25,856
that is still how I recommend generally drinking craft

305
00:18:25,888 --> 00:18:29,664
sake. There's other ways to do it, but I think that's a

306
00:18:29,672 --> 00:18:32,720
very solid way to drink craft sake. I guess I just sort of lucked out

307
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,350
that way. But I had it in my thought, having that

308
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:40,142
sake and it was definitely. So you said the term premium sake

309
00:18:40,206 --> 00:18:43,902
and I think that's great. I often use the term craft sake. I think

310
00:18:43,926 --> 00:18:47,422
we're kind of conveying the same thing. It's something that is above the level of

311
00:18:47,446 --> 00:18:51,070
mass production and we're really talking, you know, more quality and

312
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:54,862
care in what people Are making. So. But

313
00:18:54,886 --> 00:18:58,158
do they always exist? At least not to interrupt you, but do they always

314
00:18:58,214 --> 00:19:01,886
exist? Because I think what you just said a lot, obviously, again, chilling

315
00:19:01,918 --> 00:19:05,612
sake and you're chilling the craft premium sake. You know, we go to sake

316
00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:09,452
houses in the 70s and 80s and you know, you, it was always warm, you

317
00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:11,868
did a depth charge, you drop it in a beer, you know, and you're chugging

318
00:19:11,884 --> 00:19:14,920
it. So but, you know,

319
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:19,228
was that was that idea of mass

320
00:19:19,284 --> 00:19:23,100
produced sake was that you warmed it up because you were

321
00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:26,956
masking something and now you're suggesting chilling it because

322
00:19:27,028 --> 00:19:30,480
you can get the nuances of a premium or craft sake?

323
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,780
I mean, that seems like I've been bamboozled all this time.

324
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,500
So I hate to dispel you or the

325
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:42,456
nobody likes the feeling of getting tricked. But I will tell you, it seems counterintuitive

326
00:19:42,488 --> 00:19:46,312
that heating something up could actually mask flavors. But it does

327
00:19:46,336 --> 00:19:49,992
work if you get to a certain temperature level. And

328
00:19:50,016 --> 00:19:52,980
yes, that is one of the main things that heating up

329
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,388
kind of does. Now I want to add on to there,

330
00:19:57,504 --> 00:20:01,332
there is some very fine sake, some of the best sakes in the world that

331
00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:04,660
are also really wonderful warmed. And one of our

332
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:08,260
sakes right up here where I'm pointing to White

333
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,588
Lotus for anyone who can see this video. Yeah, this is our Nigori

334
00:20:11,604 --> 00:20:15,332
sake. That is a wonderful sake warmed and we're very

335
00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:18,372
proud of it. Now, at home, I still keep it in the fridge and I

336
00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:22,212
still pour it into usually a wine glass. So that's the way

337
00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:25,364
I like to drink it. But it is also fantastic warm. But I'll give you

338
00:20:25,372 --> 00:20:29,162
my general hot versus cold advice. Warm sake. So, well,

339
00:20:29,186 --> 00:20:32,110
let's say lower tier, rougher,

340
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:36,762
maybe let's say more robust. I'm going to add some nice terms on there too.

341
00:20:36,866 --> 00:20:40,170
Robust, bigger flavor, but maybe also rougher, more

342
00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:43,642
warmed. This is more going to be served warmed. And then when you get into

343
00:20:43,666 --> 00:20:47,274
the craft world of sake, now we're going to be more

344
00:20:47,362 --> 00:20:50,842
chilled and maybe chilled by default, but can exist in a

345
00:20:50,866 --> 00:20:54,378
range. And my best advice for how to know that

346
00:20:54,514 --> 00:20:58,362
easy mode is when in doubt, just chill it and you're going

347
00:20:58,386 --> 00:21:01,722
to be right in the craft sake world. I'm going to say 95% of the

348
00:21:01,746 --> 00:21:05,482
time. Now what you can do is this is my

349
00:21:05,506 --> 00:21:09,194
best advice. A good bottle of sake should have a recommended serving

350
00:21:09,242 --> 00:21:12,634
temperature on the back. Let's see if I got it right here. Oh, where is

351
00:21:12,642 --> 00:21:16,394
it? Here it is right here. So you'll see, look, served warmed

352
00:21:16,442 --> 00:21:19,470
or chilled, some people will actually Give a temperature range.

353
00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:23,162
But yeah, look at, look at the advice on the back. To me, this is,

354
00:21:23,186 --> 00:21:26,666
this is my, my best advice for that. Now when you get into

355
00:21:26,818 --> 00:21:30,650
the highest, let's say class of sake, which is a category called

356
00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:34,298
daiginjo, where they've polished the rice down a lot, they've taken a lot of fat

357
00:21:34,314 --> 00:21:38,122
and protein off, which can give rougher, bigger flavors. Now

358
00:21:38,146 --> 00:21:41,994
it's more delicate, it's more light. This style is almost exclusively

359
00:21:42,042 --> 00:21:45,802
chilled. So you've gone from more warmed to we can play

360
00:21:45,826 --> 00:21:49,162
in a range and you know, check the back and you know, see what they

361
00:21:49,186 --> 00:21:52,310
say to pretty much just chill it every time.

362
00:21:52,850 --> 00:21:56,672
There's exceptions to everything. But that's, that's, that's my advice. Now

363
00:21:56,696 --> 00:22:00,272
to your question of how long has that been a thing? You

364
00:22:00,296 --> 00:22:03,776
know, we all know mass produced hot kind of rough

365
00:22:03,808 --> 00:22:07,392
sake in the US but just to give you an

366
00:22:07,416 --> 00:22:10,816
idea of how long craft sake has been

367
00:22:10,968 --> 00:22:13,060
made in let's say, Japan,

368
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,592
I would say, you know, some of the, there's technological things that happened in the

369
00:22:18,616 --> 00:22:22,430
sake world that were real big quality jumps up in the

370
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:26,222
world of sake. And without getting into too much history, I'm going to

371
00:22:26,246 --> 00:22:29,450
say around the year 1900

372
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:33,502
was when some, a few things started to

373
00:22:33,526 --> 00:22:37,150
happen that really got a lot of producers into making higher

374
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:40,382
and higher quality sake. Rice polishing

375
00:22:40,446 --> 00:22:44,142
technology, having that ability to mill down, take fat and

376
00:22:44,166 --> 00:22:47,390
protein off the grain of the rice, get more starch, that gave you these

377
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:50,974
cleaners pretty your flavors right off the bat. Understanding

378
00:22:51,022 --> 00:22:54,862
yeast and understanding how to isolate yeast. And as soon as that

379
00:22:54,886 --> 00:22:58,270
happened, people started picking for strains of yeast that give fruity flavors and

380
00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:01,982
aromas, which is key to our style. This

381
00:23:02,006 --> 00:23:05,838
was a big development and that was definitely in the past 100 years or so.

382
00:23:05,974 --> 00:23:09,214
The I'm 100 years is a long back.

383
00:23:09,302 --> 00:23:12,450
So yeah, then it's not contemporary

384
00:23:13,030 --> 00:23:16,846
because it seems to me, it seems to me that sake, like maybe

385
00:23:16,878 --> 00:23:20,250
even grappa is probably the peasants drink at some point.

386
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:24,330
Actually it was the opposite sake, because rice was

387
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:28,382
actually rice was currency in Japan. It was so

388
00:23:28,406 --> 00:23:31,934
valuable. Yeah, this was kind of during like the

389
00:23:31,942 --> 00:23:35,454
feudal era era of Japan. You would pay for

390
00:23:35,542 --> 00:23:39,358
things and you would pay your taxes in rice. And

391
00:23:39,494 --> 00:23:43,210
making booze out of rice was considered to be

392
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:47,262
almost like the drink of, of royalty or definitely you would be

393
00:23:47,286 --> 00:23:50,846
privileged to get it. Everybody would want to have sake. And it's not like you,

394
00:23:50,918 --> 00:23:54,094
you didn't have to be royalty to have sake in Japan, but it was definitely

395
00:23:54,142 --> 00:23:57,902
considered to be an elevated beverage. And the, like, the

396
00:23:57,926 --> 00:24:01,550
methods for making it in the way that it's made now were

397
00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:04,958
codified around 1500, 1600 somewhere around

398
00:24:05,014 --> 00:24:08,302
there. And then, you know, there's been sort of jumps with

399
00:24:08,326 --> 00:24:12,104
it. The. And then it coming to the us, I would say, has been a

400
00:24:12,112 --> 00:24:15,624
phenomenon. For the past 40

401
00:24:15,712 --> 00:24:19,272
years or so, craft sake has been, you know, sort of exported to the

402
00:24:19,296 --> 00:24:23,128
us. I think what the US is seeing right now is Japan's been making

403
00:24:23,184 --> 00:24:26,904
craft sake. It's just now getting exported and shown

404
00:24:26,952 --> 00:24:30,712
in a way that never really was before. But I will say, you

405
00:24:30,736 --> 00:24:34,152
know, kind of what I was alluding to with this further back history is it

406
00:24:34,176 --> 00:24:38,014
wasn't always the case that Japan was making amazing sake per se, or the way

407
00:24:38,022 --> 00:24:41,662
that we know it now. The, you know, it went through its own, you

408
00:24:41,686 --> 00:24:45,166
know, series of changes. It's still a very dynamic

409
00:24:45,358 --> 00:24:49,102
industry in Japan in terms of trying new things and, you know, growing in

410
00:24:49,126 --> 00:24:52,942
category in quality. But now we are getting more and more connected, or let's say

411
00:24:52,966 --> 00:24:56,750
Japan sake brewers are getting connected with the outside world more and

412
00:24:56,790 --> 00:25:00,590
more every year. It's really accelerating, you're saying, you know, it's having its

413
00:25:00,630 --> 00:25:04,332
renaissance and I really do feel like that is happening. And then part

414
00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:07,720
of that renaissance is sake brewers, like us,

415
00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:11,932
we are having access to the techniques to

416
00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:15,660
make this very high quality sake outside of Japan, which

417
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,572
I have to say, I moved to Japan and trained at a sake brewery and

418
00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:22,268
learned Japanese to do it, because that was impossible 10 years ago, but

419
00:25:22,324 --> 00:25:25,760
now it can happen. Wow, that's a fascinating

420
00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:29,912
part of the history because I think most people in America just look at,

421
00:25:29,936 --> 00:25:32,648
as you go to a Japanese restaurant, you get some sake, because that's what you're

422
00:25:32,664 --> 00:25:36,280
supposed to do. And what would be the. Then the

423
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,060
driving factor? And I want to get into this, your immediate

424
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,160
soiree into the industry. But what would be the driving

425
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,016
factor for quality? We talk about terroir with wine and the soil

426
00:25:49,048 --> 00:25:52,380
and the continent, and I don't know how rice absorbs

427
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,772
its surroundings. Is it the polish, is it the quality of the

428
00:25:56,796 --> 00:25:59,444
rice? Is it the hybrid of the rice, is it the yeast? Or is it

429
00:25:59,452 --> 00:26:03,140
a combination of all those things? Yeah, so there

430
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,836
is a debate within sake about, you know, should the word

431
00:26:06,868 --> 00:26:10,612
terroir be used? What does it mean in, in the world

432
00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:14,468
of sake? I definitely have a. You're. You're about. You're about to get my strong

433
00:26:14,524 --> 00:26:18,020
opinion about it. I don't think terroir is very applicable

434
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:21,348
to what makes sake. You know, the, the thing that you are

435
00:26:21,404 --> 00:26:25,160
Enjoying, uh, rice itself, it's not as

436
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,032
sensitive to its surroundings as grapes are. Let's say out in the

437
00:26:29,056 --> 00:26:32,680
field there are changes and you know, rice changes from year to year. But if

438
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,360
anything, in the sake world, you are working to

439
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,280
deal with the changes from harvest to harvest to keep making the same thing.

440
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,072
You're taking these differences in the field and you're actually changing your technique in the

441
00:26:44,096 --> 00:26:47,752
brewery to make sure that, you know, whatever product, if it's our

442
00:26:47,776 --> 00:26:51,224
White Lotus or Thousand Cranes, that, that always tastes the same and it tastes the

443
00:26:51,232 --> 00:26:54,872
same as it did last year. In that case or in that

444
00:26:54,896 --> 00:26:58,616
sense, sake adheres generally more to the concept of house

445
00:26:58,688 --> 00:27:02,392
style as opposed to releasing vintages. And that vintages advantage is

446
00:27:02,416 --> 00:27:06,040
going to give information to customers that, oh, this year is going to be different

447
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,864
than last year. Right. So to me, when you make a non vintage

448
00:27:09,912 --> 00:27:13,672
thing, the expectation is it's always going to be the same and

449
00:27:13,776 --> 00:27:17,560
sake is more like, let's say beer or spirits in this

450
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,416
sense where the, you know, a main release is a house style

451
00:27:21,448 --> 00:27:23,832
and it's always going to taste the same and you do a lot of work

452
00:27:23,856 --> 00:27:27,500
to get it there. So the real thrust and to better

453
00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:31,036
best answer your question, what is the biggest factor for

454
00:27:31,188 --> 00:27:35,004
making quality sake or making sake the way it

455
00:27:35,012 --> 00:27:38,764
is at any level of quality? I think number one is technique, it's

456
00:27:38,812 --> 00:27:42,540
skill. So this is a craft in the

457
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:46,412
way that. I don't know, this may sound like. Well,

458
00:27:46,436 --> 00:27:50,140
I think in the way that, you know, painting a picture is, you know,

459
00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:53,892
it's, that's an art. Of course there's a lot of science when it comes to

460
00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:57,620
making sake or any other alcoholic beverage, but it's a combination of those things.

461
00:27:57,660 --> 00:28:01,108
There's science, there's art, there's, there's craft coming together,

462
00:28:01,244 --> 00:28:04,932
there's skill. You're making style choices.

463
00:28:05,076 --> 00:28:08,532
And I would say the way that our sake tastes, this

464
00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:12,164
is, this is 90% of the way it tastes are style choices

465
00:28:12,212 --> 00:28:16,052
that we made to get to what it tastes like. So it's really more

466
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:19,680
about craft. I do not like using the word terroir in sake.

467
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,800
There's some people who are very good in the sake business who I very much

468
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,688
respect, who would strongly disagree with me, but I'm

469
00:28:26,704 --> 00:28:30,032
going to put us on team craft for. Well, I think

470
00:28:30,056 --> 00:28:33,760
that just seems to me on the surface there's more down

471
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,648
from a consumer standpoint, down the lines of a craft beer or

472
00:28:37,704 --> 00:28:41,424
a premium bourbon or scotch in that I drink Heineken or

473
00:28:41,432 --> 00:28:45,122
I drink Jack Daniels because I Know what it tastes like. And

474
00:28:45,226 --> 00:28:48,642
that's what, that's what I'm looking to do. I'm not here for an

475
00:28:48,666 --> 00:28:52,354
academic exercise in terroir because I'm having a Bordeaux. So I

476
00:28:52,362 --> 00:28:55,874
think that's really a fascinating part of that. You, your,

477
00:28:55,962 --> 00:28:59,762
your, your path wasn't so easy and I want to get to that

478
00:28:59,786 --> 00:29:03,346
and then I want to talk about the segmentation of the market in America. But

479
00:29:03,498 --> 00:29:07,202
you know, I just, it made me laugh a little bit. I, I

480
00:29:07,226 --> 00:29:11,036
chuckled, I guffawed. I had a, your career path

481
00:29:11,068 --> 00:29:14,252
to get into this and to be able to speak as eloquently as you do

482
00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:18,076
about the, the subject was not the case always.

483
00:29:18,228 --> 00:29:21,868
Yeah. So the, you know, I told you about

484
00:29:21,924 --> 00:29:25,772
becoming a wine specialist and having that bottle of sake and then, well, what

485
00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:29,372
came after that? So I went to, of course I

486
00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:33,068
searched are there any sake professional certifications? And I found that there are.

487
00:29:33,204 --> 00:29:36,300
The first one I got was the.

488
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,008
Oh, sorry. Certified sake professional certification under

489
00:29:41,064 --> 00:29:44,576
a man named John Gauntner, who is a lot of people in the business, Their,

490
00:29:44,648 --> 00:29:48,128
their sake teacher. And he got

491
00:29:48,184 --> 00:29:52,000
me kind of connected with it, with a sake brewery. I was always this

492
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,872
guy who was flying from Arkansas, going to New York back then New

493
00:29:55,896 --> 00:29:59,024
York, and New York still is one of the best cities in the US for

494
00:29:59,032 --> 00:30:02,694
craft sake. The. I would be this guy

495
00:30:02,742 --> 00:30:06,502
that just shows up to events from Arkansas. And I think for local people in

496
00:30:06,526 --> 00:30:10,214
New York, it was amusing to say the least, that this guy

497
00:30:10,262 --> 00:30:13,974
just kept coming for events. But to me, this was the only way to learn.

498
00:30:14,102 --> 00:30:17,846
And then from that and from John in particular,

499
00:30:17,918 --> 00:30:21,558
I got hooked up with a sake brewery called Mitobe Shuzo, which

500
00:30:21,614 --> 00:30:25,462
I found out later is really stellar world class sake

501
00:30:25,526 --> 00:30:29,308
brewery. And I remember talking with him, I, I wanted

502
00:30:29,324 --> 00:30:32,588
to learn how to make it. I didn't want to just academically learn about sake.

503
00:30:32,764 --> 00:30:36,140
You know, I already had it in my mind, Arkansas could be a place that,

504
00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:39,560
that makes sake. So the,

505
00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:43,436
I talked to the president of that brewery on the phone, Mitobae

506
00:30:43,468 --> 00:30:47,100
san, and he said, yeah, can you, can you come in for an interview?

507
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:50,716
And I thought, okay, do you mean come into

508
00:30:50,788 --> 00:30:54,120
Japan? Come into the country of Japan and then come to.

509
00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:58,428
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. They haven't built the bridge yet. So it's not. I can't

510
00:30:58,444 --> 00:31:02,222
do the drive, but, but. So yeah, but you know,

511
00:31:02,246 --> 00:31:05,758
in my mind, I think in a way that was really almost

512
00:31:05,814 --> 00:31:09,342
shocking, but in another way, I think I knew exactly what he was asking for.

513
00:31:09,446 --> 00:31:11,854
This was a test. I thought it was a test. And I Still think it

514
00:31:11,862 --> 00:31:15,390
was a test to see how serious I was about it. Because

515
00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:18,654
back then it was extremely rare for a

516
00:31:18,742 --> 00:31:22,462
foreigner, and by foreigner I mean non Japanese person, to work

517
00:31:22,486 --> 00:31:25,746
at a sake brewery full time in Japan.

518
00:31:25,918 --> 00:31:29,722
So. And you know, he didn't know me and he probably didn't know where

519
00:31:29,746 --> 00:31:33,290
Arkansas was or maybe he has ever heard of it. So the.

520
00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:36,762
I wasn't coming from like a big restaurant in New York or LA or San

521
00:31:36,786 --> 00:31:40,442
Francisco or coming from a famous winery. So the, you

522
00:31:40,466 --> 00:31:43,402
know, who is this guy? How serious is he? I think even if you did

523
00:31:43,426 --> 00:31:47,210
have that background, especially over 10 years ago, somebody would

524
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:50,938
still want to assess how serious they are. Because in Japan, you know, when someone

525
00:31:50,994 --> 00:31:54,790
makes a commitment to bring you in, they're kind of making a commitment to

526
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:58,294
see your help, see your dream through. This is a cultural difference

527
00:31:58,342 --> 00:32:01,810
between Japan and America that I think Americans often don't understand.

528
00:32:02,590 --> 00:32:06,422
So there's an idea in Japan that they're very hesitant to, you

529
00:32:06,446 --> 00:32:10,166
know, maybe start a business relationship or get into it. But I think, I think

530
00:32:10,238 --> 00:32:13,462
what Americans don't understand is from a Japanese

531
00:32:13,526 --> 00:32:17,206
perspective, when they say yes, they're saying yes to, to more than maybe

532
00:32:17,238 --> 00:32:21,082
you realize. So you're going to get extra tested for, you know,

533
00:32:21,106 --> 00:32:24,426
do they. Are you serious? And are you someone that they want to be involved

534
00:32:24,458 --> 00:32:28,122
with? So I flew to Japan, got that

535
00:32:28,146 --> 00:32:31,994
ticket as soon as I got to Tokyo Station. I'd been learning, you

536
00:32:32,002 --> 00:32:35,834
know, some vocabulary and I thought, yeah, I'm. I feel like

537
00:32:35,842 --> 00:32:39,002
this is a classic dumb American thing. I didn't know what it really was like

538
00:32:39,026 --> 00:32:41,914
to learn a second language. So I thought, oh yeah, I'll learn some words. And

539
00:32:41,922 --> 00:32:45,728
then I don't know it somehow it's just gonna all pop together. And I knew

540
00:32:45,744 --> 00:32:48,544
I wouldn't be good at it. But when I got to Tokyo Station, I was

541
00:32:48,632 --> 00:32:52,320
lost. And a station attendant came up to me. Clearly

542
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,280
he could see just probably from the look on my face, I was lost. Said

543
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,640
something to me probably along the lines of, hey, where are you trying to go

544
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,464
in Japanese? And I got none of it didn't happen. And

545
00:33:02,472 --> 00:33:06,080
I knew in that moment, oh, crap, I really don't know any

546
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,712
Japanese, you know, I can't speak it at all. And

547
00:33:09,736 --> 00:33:13,040
then proceed to get from there. It took a while, but I got from there

548
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,842
to. Out to the country where this, this brewery was. And I think I

549
00:33:16,866 --> 00:33:20,682
got maybe three, four hours of sleep. Got to the brewery the, the

550
00:33:20,706 --> 00:33:24,474
next morning. And when I sat down for the interview, I really think the President

551
00:33:24,562 --> 00:33:28,282
could tell from Our talking on the phone and our interactions that maybe.

552
00:33:28,346 --> 00:33:32,010
Maybe I couldn't really speak Japanese. And this is on me. I think I oversold

553
00:33:32,090 --> 00:33:35,270
what I could do with it. So

554
00:33:35,810 --> 00:33:39,322
the. That's an American thing to do, too.

555
00:33:39,346 --> 00:33:42,550
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Over. Yeah, right. Oversell. And then

556
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:46,028
was it fake it till you make it? These are. These are things that I've

557
00:33:46,044 --> 00:33:49,852
really come to loathe. But the. So I sit down

558
00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:53,452
for the interview, and this was the interview. He said, can you do this

559
00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:56,924
interview in Japanese? And I said, no, because I knew at that

560
00:33:57,012 --> 00:34:00,492
point there's no way it's happening. And then his response was,

561
00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:04,492
oh, then you can't work here. And that was the end of the interview,

562
00:34:04,636 --> 00:34:07,740
so. Oh, good. That was what, 30 seconds?

563
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:11,607
Yeah, I feel like it would be hard for an interview to be shorter.

564
00:34:11,723 --> 00:34:15,455
Yeah. So. And then his thing after. And of course that felt like a gut

565
00:34:15,487 --> 00:34:18,831
punch knocked the wind out of me. And. And then he said,

566
00:34:19,015 --> 00:34:22,847
oh, well, would you. You're here. Would you like a. A tour?

567
00:34:22,983 --> 00:34:26,223
And I was just like, oh, sure, okay, I'll take a tour.

568
00:34:26,391 --> 00:34:30,079
And so he's given me a tour. Yeah, I mean, that was like.

569
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:33,583
It felt kind of heartbreaking, and I guess in the moment, you don't know how

570
00:34:33,591 --> 00:34:37,185
to respond to something like that. But the,

571
00:34:37,327 --> 00:34:40,750
you know, as we're doing the tour, I'm pointing out pieces of his

572
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:44,462
equipment. I'm saying, oh, this is. This is your fune press. You know,

573
00:34:44,566 --> 00:34:48,158
this is done for this and, you know, this piece of equipment. And

574
00:34:48,214 --> 00:34:51,950
he's like, oh, so you. You know how sake is made. And, you know,

575
00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:55,790
to me it was like, oh, finally I get to show. Demonstrate some level

576
00:34:55,830 --> 00:34:59,342
of skill and knowledge. I did. I, you know, I did have, you know, my

577
00:34:59,366 --> 00:35:03,024
first level certification in sake, and I'm a pretty good student.

578
00:35:03,222 --> 00:35:06,332
So, you know, he. I could see the gears kind of turning in his head.

579
00:35:06,356 --> 00:35:09,900
And by the end of that, he said, look, you can't work here full

580
00:35:09,940 --> 00:35:13,452
time because my crew just doesn't speak English,

581
00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:17,084
so you have to speak Japanese or you really can't work together. And I think

582
00:35:17,092 --> 00:35:20,732
that was actually a very reasonable thing to say in a reasonable request.

583
00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,772
He said, but if you want to come back and train for two weeks, you

584
00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:26,572
can come back and train for two weeks. And in my mind, that was the

585
00:35:26,596 --> 00:35:30,060
door cracking open. And I said, okay, I'm going to take you up on that.

586
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:33,752
So, uh, I scheduled my advanced sake professional course, which was in

587
00:35:33,776 --> 00:35:37,592
Tokyo the next year, and I was the only person from my class where

588
00:35:37,616 --> 00:35:41,336
everybody said, hey, after this course, where are you going to go? My answer

589
00:35:41,368 --> 00:35:44,984
was I'm going to go train at a sake brewery for two weeks. And that

590
00:35:44,992 --> 00:35:48,696
was my first in. And then I got another even better

591
00:35:48,768 --> 00:35:52,584
in via a sake brewery called Nambu Bijin. And that

592
00:35:52,592 --> 00:35:56,200
was my real long term work. Two years at a sake brewery.

593
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,794
And, and that was thanks to Hot Springs sister city Hot springs where we're at

594
00:35:59,802 --> 00:36:03,634
right now. Really? The sister city of hot springs? Yeah. In Japan.

595
00:36:03,762 --> 00:36:07,506
In Japan, relationship through the mayor

596
00:36:07,538 --> 00:36:11,074
or the city council or you just. Wow, that's

597
00:36:11,122 --> 00:36:14,482
great. Yeah. I graduated from high school here, but I did not know about this

598
00:36:14,506 --> 00:36:18,162
sister city relationship. And it was actually on an alumni meetup after I

599
00:36:18,186 --> 00:36:22,002
came back from that two weeks of training, I was at an. I'll never

600
00:36:22,026 --> 00:36:25,440
forget it. I was at an alumni meetup at an Irish pub in North Little

601
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,312
Rock having probably a pint of Guinness. And someone said, hey Ben,

602
00:36:29,376 --> 00:36:32,320
you know, you've been to Japan, you like sake stuff. Did you know about this

603
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,128
sister city relationship? And I said no. And they said, oh, it's

604
00:36:36,144 --> 00:36:39,312
a, it's a place called Hanamaki. And I started, of course I started looking it

605
00:36:39,336 --> 00:36:42,992
up on my phone and I see it's in Iwate

606
00:36:43,056 --> 00:36:46,752
Prefecture. And I'm like, well, I know from my sake studies that Iwate is home

607
00:36:46,776 --> 00:36:50,432
of the, the Nanbu Toji Brewing Guild, which is the largest, most famous sake

608
00:36:50,496 --> 00:36:54,232
brewing guild in Japan. And then I thought, I wonder how far Hanomaki is from

609
00:36:54,256 --> 00:36:58,072
it. And, and I look up the guild and this

610
00:36:58,096 --> 00:37:01,752
is the craziest coincidence. The guild is in Hanomaki. The

611
00:37:01,776 --> 00:37:04,696
largest slackly brewing guild is in my high school

612
00:37:04,768 --> 00:37:08,312
town's sister city. How is this

613
00:37:08,496 --> 00:37:11,976
then? It was just, oh boy. Then I, I needed to, you know, talk via

614
00:37:12,008 --> 00:37:15,368
those connections. And it was so man.

615
00:37:15,424 --> 00:37:19,180
Fortuitous is, is, you know, probably couldn't. Get out of that

616
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:22,972
fast enough. Right. I'm like, you're like, you know, I. Got good on the

617
00:37:22,996 --> 00:37:26,604
phone. Yeah. So I, I called the head of the sister city relationship

618
00:37:26,652 --> 00:37:30,476
over here and you wouldn't believe it. When I talked to her on the phone,

619
00:37:30,508 --> 00:37:34,028
she said, you know, believe it or not, we've actually. They've been looking for

620
00:37:34,084 --> 00:37:37,484
someone on their side to come train and make sake

621
00:37:37,612 --> 00:37:41,420
because of this, you know, this Nanbu Toji. Toji is a master sake

622
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:45,184
brewer in Japanese. Because of this connection

623
00:37:45,232 --> 00:37:49,040
with the, with the brewing guild. And I thought I. Man, this

624
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,672
just feels like the best, unbelievable, the best connection you could ever

625
00:37:52,696 --> 00:37:56,192
have. And I will say I think that they hooked me up with, among the

626
00:37:56,216 --> 00:38:00,032
non butoji, you know, breweries, maybe the best one.

627
00:38:00,136 --> 00:38:03,760
And it was. Changed my life, you know, two

628
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,408
years living in Japan. I learned Japanese. I got Japanese

629
00:38:07,504 --> 00:38:10,752
learning the hard way, you know, you know,

630
00:38:10,776 --> 00:38:14,576
immersion, full immersion. I think I got about three months of, you know, lessons

631
00:38:14,608 --> 00:38:18,432
before my work actually started. And then it was make sake six days a

632
00:38:18,456 --> 00:38:22,192
week. Seventh day, I was on the train for an hour to go do

633
00:38:22,216 --> 00:38:25,824
my Japanese lesson and rinse and repeat. That was my week.

634
00:38:25,992 --> 00:38:29,712
And I will say, in addition to working through the brewery and

635
00:38:29,736 --> 00:38:33,232
working at every possible job you could have at the brewery, and they made sure

636
00:38:33,256 --> 00:38:36,976
that I got to work every possible job. In the summer, you usually don't

637
00:38:37,008 --> 00:38:40,736
brew sake so much because it's hot and you want cold, slow

638
00:38:40,768 --> 00:38:44,512
fermentation in your tanks. So in the summer I actually got a job for

639
00:38:44,536 --> 00:38:47,968
a few months working for the local farming co op, growing sake

640
00:38:48,064 --> 00:38:51,792
rice. So I got to do everything from planting

641
00:38:51,856 --> 00:38:55,312
the seeds, growing that up, bringing that finished,

642
00:38:55,456 --> 00:38:59,232
you know, sake rice into the brewery and then the next season, you

643
00:38:59,256 --> 00:39:03,056
know, whole batch. So I really got, you know, this agricultural experience

644
00:39:03,208 --> 00:39:07,002
out of it as well. It was a deep, great experience.

645
00:39:07,106 --> 00:39:10,426
And then for us, for Origami here, that company, Nambu

646
00:39:10,458 --> 00:39:13,990
Bijin gave, has been giving us technical advice to

647
00:39:14,290 --> 00:39:17,834
get our batches going. And even though we've only been selling sake for a year

648
00:39:17,842 --> 00:39:20,746
and a half, I think it's gotten us to a level of quality that normally

649
00:39:20,778 --> 00:39:24,586
it would take years or maybe even decades to get to if you didn't

650
00:39:24,618 --> 00:39:28,442
have advice like that. So they've been really instrumental in helping us do what

651
00:39:28,466 --> 00:39:32,242
we're doing here. I wonder if there's any other way. In

652
00:39:32,266 --> 00:39:36,082
other words, you already reflected on sort of

653
00:39:36,106 --> 00:39:39,858
the American mentality, the way we look at life, and, and

654
00:39:39,994 --> 00:39:43,826
there, this is a difficult road to hoe. I've. I've learned a foreign language

655
00:39:43,858 --> 00:39:47,330
on my own because I fell in love with the, the culture.

656
00:39:47,490 --> 00:39:50,670
And if you don't do what you did,

657
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:54,722
it makes a ton of sense. That would take 10, 15 years to figure this

658
00:39:54,746 --> 00:39:57,762
out. But you said, no, I'm going to three sheets to the wind. I'm just

659
00:39:57,786 --> 00:40:00,986
going to immerse myself. And so I'm just wondering,

660
00:40:01,018 --> 00:40:03,430
like, based on that comment, what.

661
00:40:05,330 --> 00:40:08,922
And I always ask this question of vintners, like, do you think that a vintner

662
00:40:09,066 --> 00:40:12,906
who spends 20 years in the same vineyard is going to make a better wine

663
00:40:12,938 --> 00:40:16,218
from that vineyard than somebody that's worked all over the world? But being

664
00:40:16,274 --> 00:40:19,930
that in for 20 years, in 20 different vineyards.

665
00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:23,914
But in Japan, because it's such a local, you know, I

666
00:40:23,922 --> 00:40:27,770
mean, seriously, I don't know how many different countries make sake, but clearly

667
00:40:27,930 --> 00:40:31,754
the world's major majority of the sake made in

668
00:40:31,762 --> 00:40:35,082
the world, this comes from Japan that's such a location sensitive

669
00:40:35,146 --> 00:40:38,730
product that if you didn't do that that you

670
00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:42,554
really, it would be almost a hobby at that point, like you didn't do

671
00:40:42,562 --> 00:40:45,914
what you did. It's just never more than a hobby. To do it at a

672
00:40:45,922 --> 00:40:49,770
high level to, to do it beyond, you know, glorified home

673
00:40:49,810 --> 00:40:53,450
brews or mass production. The only way, I

674
00:40:53,490 --> 00:40:57,240
would say a little over 10 years ago or so to really

675
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,080
learn the craft and learn it well, I think is to move to Japan

676
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,952
and go train at a sake brewery. And for a native English speaker, that

677
00:41:04,976 --> 00:41:08,744
does mean you're going to learn, you know, top three or four hardest languages for

678
00:41:08,752 --> 00:41:12,136
an English speaker to learn. So I, you know,

679
00:41:12,288 --> 00:41:15,928
look, my Japanese isn't very good. So, you know, it's not like

680
00:41:16,064 --> 00:41:19,832
I, I wasn't like some kind of language savant and really just picked it

681
00:41:19,856 --> 00:41:22,840
up. I think I was on the same learning curve that a lot of people

682
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,842
would be in that position. And I think it takes, you know, I was there

683
00:41:25,866 --> 00:41:29,666
for two years. To me, I think you need at least four years of

684
00:41:29,738 --> 00:41:33,170
immersion like that to speak like the level of Japanese that I would want

685
00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:36,866
to. Although, as I'm sure you understand, once you really get into

686
00:41:36,938 --> 00:41:40,642
a language, you never feel like what you're doing is good enough. It could always

687
00:41:40,666 --> 00:41:44,418
be better, you could always be doing more. And I'm

688
00:41:44,434 --> 00:41:48,242
not shy to use my Japanese, as poor as it might be. When I need

689
00:41:48,266 --> 00:41:51,778
to talk about what I need to talk about, usually I can get there. And

690
00:41:51,834 --> 00:41:54,514
if I'm talking to someone who speaks some English too, then we can meet each

691
00:41:54,522 --> 00:41:58,028
other halfway and really get through it. Now I will say

692
00:41:58,164 --> 00:42:01,836
I, I have a bit of a cheat code on that, which is I hired

693
00:42:01,868 --> 00:42:05,676
another sake brewer who also trained in Japan at the exact same time

694
00:42:05,748 --> 00:42:09,548
that that I was and he lived in Japan for the better part of 20

695
00:42:09,604 --> 00:42:13,132
years. So his Japanese is immaculate

696
00:42:13,196 --> 00:42:16,956
and he is now our head brewer. I am really, I'm

697
00:42:16,988 --> 00:42:20,396
more tasting, I'm more like quality control. I taste things

698
00:42:20,548 --> 00:42:24,392
and make sure that everything that's going out is on point and it's where it

699
00:42:24,416 --> 00:42:28,264
needs to be. I do not get my hands in brewing so so much anymore.

700
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:31,896
I can give advice and I can help out on things, but the,

701
00:42:31,968 --> 00:42:35,736
yeah, now these days I'm more sales Now I'm back to sales where I started.

702
00:42:35,808 --> 00:42:39,432
You know, it's. It's more talking and both, I will

703
00:42:39,456 --> 00:42:42,888
say, a very strong added dimension of tasting.

704
00:42:42,984 --> 00:42:46,776
And me and Justin, our head. Our head burner now. Justin Potts,

705
00:42:46,808 --> 00:42:50,450
who's from Seattle originally, um, we put our heads together a lot

706
00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:54,242
on what are we trying to make and, you know, where

707
00:42:54,266 --> 00:42:57,890
does it need to go? That was a brilliant move because in order for

708
00:42:57,930 --> 00:43:01,618
me to maintain my French and I. My father passed away, so

709
00:43:01,674 --> 00:43:05,106
he spoke French. So I can't speak with him. I have to speak with somebody

710
00:43:05,138 --> 00:43:08,802
else. It doesn't take a whole long time, particularly maybe after the

711
00:43:08,826 --> 00:43:12,658
level you're at, to. To not forget, but just to have to re.

712
00:43:12,794 --> 00:43:15,682
You know, realign yourself when you do it. Now you've got a built in, you

713
00:43:15,706 --> 00:43:19,012
know, sort of tutor that Lee can have the conversation with. But I did want

714
00:43:19,036 --> 00:43:22,756
to say something. There's a book that I read early on called Flirting in French.

715
00:43:22,788 --> 00:43:26,212
It's about. It's an author who decided that he was going to immerse himself in

716
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:29,844
the language and the. In the French culture. And he did everything. He did the

717
00:43:29,852 --> 00:43:33,444
pen pals and he had, you know, he had masculine. He had a pink

718
00:43:33,492 --> 00:43:37,236
sticky on the feminine nouns and he had a blue sticky

719
00:43:37,268 --> 00:43:41,012
on the masculine nouns throughout the house, the wall, the floor, the cameras or

720
00:43:41,036 --> 00:43:44,862
whatever. And he said, I. The first thing I did, I went to

721
00:43:44,886 --> 00:43:48,542
a seminar. And this seminar was an academic seminar on

722
00:43:48,566 --> 00:43:52,366
language learning. And he said, the guy told us

723
00:43:52,518 --> 00:43:56,046
we would never, ever speak

724
00:43:56,158 --> 00:43:59,902
like an indigenous speaker. And I kind of

725
00:43:59,926 --> 00:44:03,758
understand that, though he said it frustrated him and. And the story goes on. But

726
00:44:03,814 --> 00:44:07,422
I kind of understand that you. In order to think in that new

727
00:44:07,446 --> 00:44:11,080
language is the hardest part. You can

728
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,864
speak, I can have a conversation. I can go to the Paris. I can do

729
00:44:13,872 --> 00:44:16,520
whatever I want. I can order food. I can. I can see how you're doing.

730
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,820
I can go to the hotel. I can do all that.

731
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,768
But to think it is different. Difficult,

732
00:44:23,944 --> 00:44:27,640
for sure. And honestly, I had

733
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,060
thoughts along those lines of when I was going through the process,

734
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,480
am I thinking in Japanese? And, you know, the dreaming in Japanese actually

735
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,122
started pretty fast. And I will tell you, I can't speak for

736
00:44:39,146 --> 00:44:42,338
everybody else. I did actually start

737
00:44:42,394 --> 00:44:45,510
thinking almost exclusively in Japanese

738
00:44:46,090 --> 00:44:49,762
within the first year of being there. But I will

739
00:44:49,786 --> 00:44:53,490
just add an element onto that. I

740
00:44:53,530 --> 00:44:57,282
purposefully avoided English speakers or people who wanted to speak to

741
00:44:57,306 --> 00:45:00,190
me in English. And so

742
00:45:01,130 --> 00:45:04,864
I wanted all of my surrounding environment and thoughts

743
00:45:04,912 --> 00:45:08,720
to be in Japanese. And then I'll add on top of that when I was

744
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,448
thinking and talking in Japanese, I had the grammar structure and

745
00:45:12,504 --> 00:45:16,128
vocabulary level of like a child. So the I'm

746
00:45:16,144 --> 00:45:18,660
thinking in Japanese, but it's not sophisticated

747
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,472
stuff. The. And then sometimes, you know, I would hit upon a

748
00:45:23,496 --> 00:45:26,752
word that's like, ooh, I need to use this word. I can't get there in

749
00:45:26,776 --> 00:45:30,080
Japanese. And I'd switch back to English. Yeah. Maybe do some translation

750
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,690
and, and do it. But in my head I wasn't translating from

751
00:45:33,730 --> 00:45:37,402
English to Japanese. And it's still that way to me now. When I

752
00:45:37,426 --> 00:45:41,082
start to talk, I'm not even really thinking about it so

753
00:45:41,106 --> 00:45:44,746
much unless I'm getting to something that I have to work on. But the.

754
00:45:44,818 --> 00:45:47,978
And I, I do really enjoy that now. I think when it comes

755
00:45:48,034 --> 00:45:51,866
to true native level speech like you're talking

756
00:45:51,898 --> 00:45:55,562
about with, with French, the boy, there's nuances to

757
00:45:55,586 --> 00:45:58,840
that. Right. When you start to pick up like a regional accent

758
00:45:59,010 --> 00:46:02,460
and you know, from a place that you've never actually, you know, you know, really

759
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:06,140
lived at or you're not really from. Yeah. Right. There's nuances like that

760
00:46:06,260 --> 00:46:09,932
where I think it's, it would

761
00:46:09,956 --> 00:46:13,372
take so much work and you have to be really exceptional speaker

762
00:46:13,436 --> 00:46:17,036
to really smooth out all of your native accent.

763
00:46:17,148 --> 00:46:20,748
And for somebody to really just be listening to you and be like, I don't

764
00:46:20,764 --> 00:46:24,556
know, if I close my eyes, I think I'm talking to, you know, someone who's

765
00:46:24,588 --> 00:46:28,156
really like from this place. I can tell you Japan has some thick regional

766
00:46:28,188 --> 00:46:31,900
dialects. So some people tell me that my regional,

767
00:46:31,980 --> 00:46:35,660
the region where I stayed actually does come out in the way that I talk.

768
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:39,452
But it's not, not, not that they would mistake me for, for someone well, but

769
00:46:39,476 --> 00:46:43,000
that's from the area. I, I, I get thrilled when people

770
00:46:43,380 --> 00:46:47,132
ask me where I'm from. At least they know my accent's not an

771
00:46:47,156 --> 00:46:50,956
American French accent. That's, that's, that's like progress, right?

772
00:46:51,028 --> 00:46:54,600
That's pretty good. Yes, absolutely. Well, we don't have a whole lot of time left,

773
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,072
but I want to get, I wanted to get to the now the domestication

774
00:46:58,216 --> 00:47:01,960
of sake and how you, you know, when you came back from this,

775
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,752
obviously at this point you decided probably while you're in Japan that this was going

776
00:47:05,776 --> 00:47:09,180
to be a career you wanted and coming to America.

777
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,080
I'm just wondering if the logistics of starting a sake

778
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,728
house in Arkansas, no less. I'm thinking maybe it'd be easier

779
00:47:16,824 --> 00:47:20,536
in California or New York because of the availability of equipment, et cetera.

780
00:47:20,568 --> 00:47:24,342
But what would surprise you, the headwinds you

781
00:47:24,366 --> 00:47:27,590
encountered when you came back to Arkansas and said, okay, there's rice

782
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:31,446
here, but now what do I do? Okay,

783
00:47:31,558 --> 00:47:35,222
so this is such a good question. And I'm really just gonna. I think I

784
00:47:35,246 --> 00:47:38,886
can just kind of bang off each one of these, so biggest

785
00:47:38,918 --> 00:47:42,502
hurdles. And I know these so well because they're. They've been, you know,

786
00:47:42,526 --> 00:47:46,342
every part of doing all of this continues to this

787
00:47:46,366 --> 00:47:50,136
day. Equipment difficult, but I will say it's

788
00:47:50,168 --> 00:47:53,832
not any easier in any part of the US Some

789
00:47:53,856 --> 00:47:57,352
equipment, especially made in Japan for sake, and you're going to have to get it

790
00:47:57,376 --> 00:48:00,872
from Japan or maybe try to get it fabbed in another country or have it

791
00:48:00,896 --> 00:48:04,552
fabbed here. Those are really your only options. And

792
00:48:04,576 --> 00:48:07,540
it's kind of the same no matter where you are in the US

793
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,744
there's specifically some pieces of equipment for making sake, where, if you get

794
00:48:12,752 --> 00:48:15,752
it from Japan, it's probably going to be the best version of that equipment. And

795
00:48:15,776 --> 00:48:19,118
really made for sake. It's also going to be the most expensive, and the lead

796
00:48:19,174 --> 00:48:22,606
time can be pretty high. You just got to make this. This choice.

797
00:48:22,798 --> 00:48:26,526
So equipment, yes, absolutely. I'm going to add on top of that,

798
00:48:26,598 --> 00:48:30,382
skilled labor. How you heard how much it took for

799
00:48:30,406 --> 00:48:33,838
me to go train in Japan. How hard do you think it might be to

800
00:48:33,894 --> 00:48:37,230
hire other people who have experience making Japanese or, sorry, making

801
00:48:37,270 --> 00:48:40,894
sake? It's hard. It's very hard. So

802
00:48:40,982 --> 00:48:44,730
usually people in the sake industry, higher from

803
00:48:44,850 --> 00:48:48,394
the beer industry, it could be winemaking. I would say around here it's going to

804
00:48:48,402 --> 00:48:51,930
be more beer. And, you know, look, as long as you know how

805
00:48:51,970 --> 00:48:55,594
to clean the heck out of a commercial facility,

806
00:48:55,722 --> 00:48:59,290
well, that's half the job anyways. So the other stuff you can. You can learn.

807
00:48:59,370 --> 00:49:02,922
But if you can clean a big stainless steel tank, this is a good start.

808
00:49:03,106 --> 00:49:06,762
So the. Now some things do translate, like packaging, bottling,

809
00:49:06,826 --> 00:49:10,522
caning. This is really going to be the easiest skill set to

810
00:49:10,546 --> 00:49:14,040
translate, but yeah. So equipment, labor.

811
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:19,268
Let's mention that this is starting a business. So all of

812
00:49:19,324 --> 00:49:23,092
the business, you know, issues and problems still apply. You know, you can

813
00:49:23,116 --> 00:49:26,964
call me talent if you will, but you got to find a business partner.

814
00:49:27,012 --> 00:49:30,516
You got to find somebody who really knows the mechanics of business, can

815
00:49:30,588 --> 00:49:34,212
finance or get the company financed. And I will tell you, that part was so

816
00:49:34,236 --> 00:49:37,812
hard for me, I actually kind of gave up for a while, or at least

817
00:49:37,836 --> 00:49:41,342
I put it on hold. I tried for two years after I got back from

818
00:49:41,366 --> 00:49:45,070
Japan in 2016 to get a company going, and

819
00:49:45,110 --> 00:49:48,942
I never found the right person. I did meet someone during that time,

820
00:49:48,966 --> 00:49:52,526
who ended up becoming the right person. But I

821
00:49:52,598 --> 00:49:56,078
actually kind of gave up on that for a while, and I ended up moving

822
00:49:56,094 --> 00:49:59,854
to New York and working for the wine and

823
00:49:59,862 --> 00:50:03,582
spirits and sake importer Skernik Wines. And I worked there for

824
00:50:03,606 --> 00:50:07,154
three years and then came back. And thankfully, Matt

825
00:50:07,202 --> 00:50:10,350
Bell, who's the CEO now, who did finance the company,

826
00:50:11,210 --> 00:50:14,930
we met at a bar and talked, and he never forgot this

827
00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:17,362
idea. And after I moved to New York, I remember I got a phone call

828
00:50:17,386 --> 00:50:20,786
from him that said, I want you to move back to Arkansas and

829
00:50:20,938 --> 00:50:24,642
start this sake brewery. And my prompt response was, no,

830
00:50:24,666 --> 00:50:28,434
thank you. I have a good job in New York selling sake now. It's

831
00:50:28,482 --> 00:50:32,034
paid the bills. Way to go, Ben. Yeah. Yeah, right. Well, you can see I

832
00:50:32,042 --> 00:50:34,850
didn't stick with that. So the.

833
00:50:35,630 --> 00:50:39,238
No, he. He was serious. I. I didn't know him that well, and I didn't

834
00:50:39,254 --> 00:50:42,518
know how serious he was. But the building that I'm talking to you from, without

835
00:50:42,574 --> 00:50:46,310
me even saying yes to it, he bought this building. He was like,

836
00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:49,606
hook me up with somebody who can make sake. So I started doing that,

837
00:50:49,758 --> 00:50:53,462
and I came back to visit. And while I was back here in

838
00:50:53,486 --> 00:50:56,118
Arkansas visiting, he said, hey, do you want to go see the building? And I'm

839
00:50:56,134 --> 00:50:59,894
like, sure. So I come, I look at this building. It

840
00:50:59,902 --> 00:51:03,210
was in rough shape back then, but it had the bones for a good sake

841
00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:05,754
brewery. And I'm looking at it, I'm like, yeah, I could do it. And then

842
00:51:05,762 --> 00:51:09,482
I felt that feeling come back, and it was so funny. On

843
00:51:09,506 --> 00:51:13,242
the. We get into his car. We're heading back from Hot Springs to Little

844
00:51:13,266 --> 00:51:16,154
Rocks about an hour drive. And on the drive back, he just turns to me

845
00:51:16,162 --> 00:51:19,082
and he says, okay, so when are you moving back and joining me? Now, but

846
00:51:19,106 --> 00:51:22,570
dang it, I am going to do it. So, yep, just gave my notice.

847
00:51:22,730 --> 00:51:26,474
That didn't take a whole lot. Yeah, I guess not. I don't

848
00:51:26,482 --> 00:51:30,186
know. Of course, it was my. My life dream. So, you know, it's

849
00:51:30,298 --> 00:51:34,038
somebody just holding it on a plate for me. And look, it's been a. It's

850
00:51:34,054 --> 00:51:37,542
been a hard road. It continues to be a very difficult

851
00:51:37,606 --> 00:51:41,382
exercise. But honestly, even being able to talk

852
00:51:41,406 --> 00:51:45,190
with you, talk with other folks, get the word out about sake

853
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:48,902
generally and what we're doing in Arkansas, this feels to

854
00:51:48,926 --> 00:51:52,678
me like the dream being realized. And, you know,

855
00:51:52,734 --> 00:51:56,278
we've got some accolades on. On top of that, we are Junmai

856
00:51:56,294 --> 00:52:00,082
Daiginjo. Our top level sake just won a gold medal at the Tokyo Sake

857
00:52:00,146 --> 00:52:03,554
Challenge. So we went back To o home country.

858
00:52:03,722 --> 00:52:07,554
Got some, got some hardware, our thousand. First of

859
00:52:07,562 --> 00:52:11,042
all, let me stop you there. So they allow first of all foreign entries, which

860
00:52:11,066 --> 00:52:14,514
is really interesting. Let me give you. Yeah, let me give you an exception to

861
00:52:14,522 --> 00:52:17,842
that. So we did win it in the

862
00:52:17,946 --> 00:52:21,762
international category. I see. So that is absolutely.

863
00:52:21,906 --> 00:52:25,514
Yeah, look, I'll put some, like some details on that.

864
00:52:25,642 --> 00:52:29,130
The some. So the other sakes that won gold

865
00:52:29,170 --> 00:52:32,826
medals were actually still made in Japan at very good craft

866
00:52:32,858 --> 00:52:36,346
sake breweries. But they were international collaborations

867
00:52:36,538 --> 00:52:40,314
actually, all with a champagne maker, chef

868
00:52:40,362 --> 00:52:44,154
de cob, you know, like a head blender from one of the big champagne

869
00:52:44,202 --> 00:52:47,562
houses. So in my mind, hey, I know it's the international

870
00:52:47,666 --> 00:52:51,422
category, so not yet are we going head to head with, you

871
00:52:51,446 --> 00:52:54,382
know, some of the best sake breweries, you know, straight up in Japan. I do

872
00:52:54,406 --> 00:52:57,742
think that time is coming and there's some other competitions that probably I'm just not

873
00:52:57,766 --> 00:53:01,422
thinking about and you can do that. But the still those sake

874
00:53:01,486 --> 00:53:05,198
breweries, it was very famous sake brewery names in Japan

875
00:53:05,294 --> 00:53:08,542
with like, you know, big head of champagne, you know,

876
00:53:08,566 --> 00:53:12,222
maker, you know, like blending skill on top of that. So I'll take

877
00:53:12,246 --> 00:53:15,822
that, I'll take, I'll, I'll take a gold medal. Yeah, that's a

878
00:53:15,846 --> 00:53:19,576
phenomenal accomplishment if you think about it. You know,

879
00:53:19,728 --> 00:53:23,368
think about in the wine world the amount of years and, and

880
00:53:23,424 --> 00:53:27,032
level of understanding and processing and

881
00:53:27,136 --> 00:53:30,808
you know, vintage to vintage to learn

882
00:53:30,984 --> 00:53:34,712
enough to be able to topple. You know, people have been

883
00:53:34,736 --> 00:53:38,360
doing that for a long time. That's really quite interesting. So what were the number

884
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,576
one then? Headwinds. Once you've produced this first bottle and

885
00:53:41,648 --> 00:53:45,424
you've, you've taken to the street and we'll wrap up with the

886
00:53:45,432 --> 00:53:49,120
Saba. What were the, what were the either

887
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,992
surprises that, that you saw in the marketplace when you

888
00:53:53,016 --> 00:53:56,720
went out to sell your first bottles or was

889
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,560
it easier than you thought? Boy,

890
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,432
the. It's, yeah, nothing. Well,

891
00:54:04,536 --> 00:54:07,712
here's short news. Nothing's easier than, than I thought it was going to be. It's,

892
00:54:07,776 --> 00:54:11,482
it was a challenge. All of it's a challenge. The now I will

893
00:54:11,506 --> 00:54:14,910
say the response generally when we pour our sake

894
00:54:15,490 --> 00:54:19,066
we usually get a great response of I, you know, maybe

895
00:54:19,098 --> 00:54:22,810
I've. A lot of Americans have had sake before, but it's kind of cheap mass

896
00:54:22,850 --> 00:54:26,602
produced stuff. The general response, if they can taste it and this is an

897
00:54:26,626 --> 00:54:30,474
important detail is wow, I didn't know sake could

898
00:54:30,482 --> 00:54:34,282
taste like this. And now they're considering, you know, having sake on a more

899
00:54:34,306 --> 00:54:38,042
regular basis and then, you know, from there we get into food pairing and I

900
00:54:38,066 --> 00:54:41,626
love getting people out of the traditional Japanese food pairings or let's say

901
00:54:41,698 --> 00:54:45,546
East Asian food pairings and give people the good news that sake can pair

902
00:54:45,578 --> 00:54:48,970
with any food in the world. It's super versatile for pairing with

903
00:54:49,010 --> 00:54:52,650
foods. So it's actually, I would say easier as a category to pair with food

904
00:54:52,690 --> 00:54:56,362
than wine is. You just don't need to have all the kind of

905
00:54:56,386 --> 00:55:00,218
rules and guidance that you have with wine. So that has been really

906
00:55:00,274 --> 00:55:03,850
good. But you, you do have to create those opportunities for

907
00:55:03,890 --> 00:55:07,322
people to taste or those opportunities for education to

908
00:55:07,346 --> 00:55:11,002
happen. And to me that is part of, I view that

909
00:55:11,026 --> 00:55:14,538
as still part of the, you know, mechanics of sales. And

910
00:55:14,674 --> 00:55:18,314
it just, it, you just gotta, you still have to do that footwork. Yeah, I

911
00:55:18,322 --> 00:55:21,386
think, I think at that point you just, you're now in the mix. It doesn't

912
00:55:21,418 --> 00:55:25,194
matter where you're selling beer, liquor or wine, you are now

913
00:55:25,282 --> 00:55:28,854
part of that process. And the three tier process in America is a pain.

914
00:55:29,002 --> 00:55:32,702
And telling the story, I mean, it's all about the story. You said

915
00:55:32,726 --> 00:55:36,334
something interesting though, that, that I, that I reflected on a conversation with Clovis

916
00:55:36,382 --> 00:55:40,110
Tate and early on in, in this podcast, actually

917
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:43,422
it was about the idea that champagne was always

918
00:55:43,606 --> 00:55:47,390
pigeonholed into the celebration wine. And he

919
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:51,182
said you should be drinking, you know, it every day like this should be

920
00:55:51,206 --> 00:55:54,542
part of your, your regiment. And I, it is part of our regimen at home

921
00:55:54,566 --> 00:55:58,340
to have champagne whenever we feel like it. Is that an issue with

922
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:02,036
sake that, that everybody thinks it's just a Japanese beverage

923
00:56:02,068 --> 00:56:05,844
and that's your first line of, of objection is like, well, you know, I

924
00:56:05,852 --> 00:56:09,476
don't, we don't eat that much Japanese food, so why would I drink? Yeah,

925
00:56:09,508 --> 00:56:13,188
it's, it's okay. So you know, when you're talking about, you know,

926
00:56:13,244 --> 00:56:16,756
like special occasion, this is, you know, it's an occasion, you know,

927
00:56:16,828 --> 00:56:20,644
related beverage. In sake, the occasion often is just being at a

928
00:56:20,652 --> 00:56:24,308
sushi place. Right, right. So it's not even. People aren't really cooking that much,

929
00:56:24,364 --> 00:56:28,090
you know, Japanese food at home. No, the. So it really

930
00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:31,882
is, has been really tied more to going out and you

931
00:56:31,906 --> 00:56:35,754
know, having sushi and stuff like that. I would say top two,

932
00:56:35,842 --> 00:56:39,354
top three, you know, points that we are sort of pushing is

933
00:56:39,442 --> 00:56:42,826
absolutely not. You know, I remember selling champagne

934
00:56:42,938 --> 00:56:46,762
and hearing similar talking points about champagne can

935
00:56:46,786 --> 00:56:49,818
be for any time, bubbles can be for any time. And it's a very versatile

936
00:56:49,834 --> 00:56:53,590
food pairing to I. It's in my top three food pairing beverages.

937
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:57,446
A good bottle of bubbles. So I was, I was absolutely

938
00:56:57,478 --> 00:57:01,270
one of those guys who said, you can have champagne anytime now for real

939
00:57:01,310 --> 00:57:04,966
good French champagne, just because of price. Usually my response

940
00:57:04,998 --> 00:57:08,598
is if somebody would be happy to provide me with champagne so I could drink

941
00:57:08,614 --> 00:57:11,990
it anytime, then, yeah, I'll let that. I'll let that rate.

942
00:57:12,110 --> 00:57:15,894
But. But, yeah, no, definitely. We don't have a

943
00:57:15,902 --> 00:57:19,702
lot of Japanese, you know, restaurants in the area. We're lucky to have a

944
00:57:19,726 --> 00:57:23,562
few, you know, very good ones. Particularly there's one

945
00:57:23,586 --> 00:57:26,950
in Little Rock that has been fantastic for us. The

946
00:57:28,370 --> 00:57:31,802
people, you know, like I said, Arkansans have generally Southern

947
00:57:31,866 --> 00:57:35,514
food. And, you know, if it's, if it. Sometimes it's Cajun

948
00:57:35,562 --> 00:57:39,370
specifically. These are literally my favorite pairings with sake. And

949
00:57:39,410 --> 00:57:42,314
I want to get people to drink sake with the food that they're having kind

950
00:57:42,322 --> 00:57:45,882
of wherever they are. And like I said, it's. It's very easy to

951
00:57:45,906 --> 00:57:49,662
pair sake with different ranges of foods. The same sake, the very same

952
00:57:49,686 --> 00:57:53,230
sake can hit light foods, medium intensity foods, even

953
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:56,926
heavier foods. And because it has low tart acidity and higher,

954
00:57:56,998 --> 00:58:00,830
let's say, umami slash savory as the base, you get this

955
00:58:00,870 --> 00:58:04,478
like, with, like, pairing with the savory. And less tart acidity means

956
00:58:04,534 --> 00:58:08,302
less stuff that can fight with different kinds of food. So this is part

957
00:58:08,326 --> 00:58:12,174
of the mechanics of why sake is so easy to pair. It's a. It's a

958
00:58:12,182 --> 00:58:15,980
huge part of it. And I really feel like when as that work is happening,

959
00:58:16,060 --> 00:58:19,676
sake will just grow and grow. And I do think the end game for

960
00:58:19,748 --> 00:58:23,532
craft sake is to take its place as one of the. The

961
00:58:23,556 --> 00:58:27,276
real great categories, along with wine, beer, and spirits. And I know that's

962
00:58:27,308 --> 00:58:30,572
very ambitious thing to say, but I, I've worked with all those

963
00:58:30,596 --> 00:58:34,440
categories. I do really believe sake has got what it takes to do it.

964
00:58:34,740 --> 00:58:38,284
Well, we're going to leave it at that. And I think the, the final analysis

965
00:58:38,412 --> 00:58:42,094
on your story, which is fascinating, is Calvin Coolidge's

966
00:58:42,142 --> 00:58:45,130
final comment, which is one of his comments was

967
00:58:45,510 --> 00:58:49,198
persistence is omnipotent, and that none of this would happen

968
00:58:49,254 --> 00:58:52,542
without your tenacity and desire and passion.

969
00:58:52,686 --> 00:58:56,462
And nothing will happen in the future without that same tenacity and

970
00:58:56,486 --> 00:59:00,222
passion to do it. And it does take passion. And

971
00:59:00,246 --> 00:59:03,710
I've, I think every podcast I've ever done with anybody in the

972
00:59:03,830 --> 00:59:07,560
wine and liquor business says that it's. That if

973
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,368
you don't have the passion and a philosophy that surrounds

974
00:59:11,384 --> 00:59:14,808
that passion, it's just another job. And you can't.

975
00:59:14,984 --> 00:59:18,360
It. It doesn't work that way here, just another job is not a

976
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,928
successful methodology. So.

977
00:59:22,064 --> 00:59:25,448
Fascinating conversation. I hope I can do it again because I'd like to check in

978
00:59:25,584 --> 00:59:28,260
in a year or two and see how things are going and what new

979
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,728
headwinds you encountered and how you overcame them. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd

980
00:59:32,744 --> 00:59:35,352
be very happy to do that. I do think we'll have some interesting things to

981
00:59:35,376 --> 00:59:39,056
say in a. In a year or so. And maybe I haven't been to Arkansas

982
00:59:39,088 --> 00:59:42,736
for, who knows, forever, but. Yeah,

983
00:59:42,848 --> 00:59:46,448
certainly try to swing into the plant when it happens.

984
00:59:46,544 --> 00:59:50,304
Yeah. Come visit Hot Springs. It's a beautiful resort town. People are always surprised

985
00:59:50,352 --> 00:59:54,112
when they come here. It's a nice city. And then there's always interesting stuff to

986
00:59:54,136 --> 00:59:57,952
show at the brewery. So. Yes. Thanks again. Cheers. Yeah. All right.

987
00:59:57,976 --> 00:59:58,320
Thanks, Paul.