Wine Industry Insights: Hospitality, Consumer Trends, and the Power of Storytelling

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I can't figure out why the wine industry is so resistant to

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following good models and other categories. Like we don't have to

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reinvent the wheel on what we do in a lot of this. It's like look

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at other areas of business that do things well. You can

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adapt a lot of that to wine. Sit back and

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grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul

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K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Key,

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the guy that did taste 100,000 wines and all by himself

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sold 17 million bottles in the direct to consumer world

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of wine. But not why we're here. Here to have a conversation

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with Susan Castrava. Haha. Got it

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right. That is correct.

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She is the retired editor of the Wine Enthusiast

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magazine, one of the great periodicals of our

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industry, as well as now a content creator and

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content strategist for the wine industry, which we need desperately in this

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industry. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

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Already? What's that? Did I say welcome already? No, I

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don't think so. Okay, good. Thank you. You know,

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when we, when I search around looking for interesting guests to put

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on the show and sort of tell the story of what's going on in our

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trade and so much has changed in our industry and it

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seems to always be in change, but really last five to 10 years has been

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dramatically changed. I don't think it's a whole lot different than most

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consumer industries because of the way marketing's done, Internet

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socializing, et cetera. But one of the things that you and I were talking

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about early on in this conversation was the

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DTC direct consumer world. And I think you were speaking

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at an event that I was desperately trying to get to but didn't have the

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opportunity. But since I come from that world and did all of my

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sales direct the consumer from standing at a booth in

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1988 to trying to pitch and handshake each customer, to,

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you know, prolific email marketing where I sent 33 million

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emails my last full year. Tell me about that

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conference and what, you know, what the objective of that conference

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is. I mean, I think the objective of the conference, this

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is my first year being involved. It was actually my first year attending. I was

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really flattered to be asked to speak. It's really

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just tools and practical

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understanding of how to reach new consumers. So it's

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as much of a, I would say tools and practical

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sort of advice driven conference as it is understanding

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what the challenges are. And of course this was last January.

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There was a lot to talk about initially with all the

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headwinds that we have seen. And, and so

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my particular presentation was

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absolutely outlining some of those challenges, but then just looking at what I consider

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to be some pretty somewhat easy, practical ways of

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approaching in particular the messaging around wine

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and how to reach, you know, existing consumers and keep them

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engaged in wine and not running off necessarily to all the other

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categories that are doing a great job of talking to them, but

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bringing some new people in as well. And I think, you know, there

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you can get into very deep and expensive

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approaches for doing this, but sometimes it's just understanding,

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you know, stepping back and understanding a little bit more about how to talk to

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people about this topic. And I think it's very easy to forget how to

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do that when you're so deep in it. So that's. Well, yes,

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you get certainly very easy to get mired in it. And I.

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And reference a couple of failures

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that have occurred in the last few years, but certainly I always talk about

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this with, with people. You can chase

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these metrics and you can, you can chase your roas and you can trace

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your return on investment. You can trace your

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conversion rates and you know, we had great conversion rates at 1 of the month,

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but I don't know why. And that's really the issue why, like

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you, you can, it'll tell you there's a problem, but it doesn't tell you how

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to solve the problem when you chase these things. And it's the, it's the misnomer

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of digital marketing. We have all the information, information we want, but

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accept the why. But when you talk about places like Wink,

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$250 million going out of business, Finish Wine Estates, which, which

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deliberately and heavily got into the direct consumer on all fronts

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to shore up the business, you know, failed.

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When I sold my company, one of the, the buyer was referencing

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another direct to consumer company which he

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in his opinion thought was just killing it when reality is it

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went out of business as well soon after that conversation.

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How do we, how do we. How is it different then from, for instance, the

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day you spoke, which was about a year ago, to even today? Have you seen

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changes since then? I mean, I think

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it's a really good, important point that you just made, which is, you know,

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the perspective on this. It can't only be stats and data and

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numbers. I think sometimes it's a matter of having

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some intuition. It's, it's anecdotal.

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It's getting out from behind our desks and, and getting

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out into the world and seeing how people are actually interacting with these products, which

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a lot of people forget to do. Certainly many years as an editor, I used

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to tell my editorial team, please get out, go to a

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wine bar and see what people are actually doing in person. It's okay to stalk

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a little bit, listen to what they're ordering and what they're asking, because I think,

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you know, so anyway, the. So that said,

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one of the things I think that we've recently kind of seen with

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some of the data that's come out with the iswr, et cetera is

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I thought, you know, we're really concerned about decreasing consumption.

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I don't know that it's decreasing at the same level that we

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thought it was. So. But I think

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it's the way people are drinking and what they're drinking has changed.

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You know, I said last year or the beginning of this year, quality

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over quantity necessarily, you know, is, has been a focus.

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But the other things that, that we're seeing is, you know, people are

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drinking more casually in settings like at home and non formal

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spaces, restaurant, you

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know, attendance, restaurant use. We know that it's very expensive to go out right

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now, so we're just seeing a little bit more of that shift. And then one

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of the other things I've been seeing that I think is really interesting is the

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growing consumption in these less saturated markets. So

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not that we should be super surprised, but India, China, I think Brazil and

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South Africa, these were some of the areas that, just from a

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perspective of where wine consumers are and where they're looking

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for new brands and new knowledge that I thought that was

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pretty interesting and encouraging to see that the

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data supports that growth is happening in these areas.

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I have a good friend that owns Chateau Canon

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Chenault out of the Lalande Pomerol and we

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visited last year. He wanted to get in the United

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States market. He's complete a barrier to get into

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the market here in Southern California, particularly Southern California, because no distributors are

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taking on new brands. Bordeaux suffering a little bit, but he

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moved himself and his family to Singapore. Yeah.

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And now all I hear from our success stories, yeah,

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first class cabin in Singapore, Air being part of the

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embassy, the American embassy there for a special event. And I'm like, wow, you know,

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that has changed his outlook on life,

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that's for sure. And let alone, you know, sales consumption. But you said something

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important. I mean, it has to start in the bottle. And this is an

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important piece of what's going on on LinkedIn and all the sort of

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social channels is, you know, we need to be more innovative, which I'm not sure

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if that made means. Exactly. But it just seems like

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every generation has its approach to wine. And certainly

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consumerism has changed so radically with the Internet and now.

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I mean, just think about Facebook in the last 10 years. You didn't go to

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Facebook 10 years ago to buy stuff. No. You went there to socialize.

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Yep. And the idea that you would expect somebody to click away from

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chatting with their friends to buy something was absurd.

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It was worthless. And now that's almost all what it is. Or

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Instagram as well. Yeah. So it seems to me it has to start in the

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bottle. It has to be something that people are going to want to come back

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to. Or maybe it's the word is to be intrigued with, to do it

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again. Right. When you say starts in the bottle, do you

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mean just in creating products people are interested in, want,

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or do. You mean quality of juice in the bottle? Yeah, I

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mean, I think that's something. When I say. Yeah, as I said, quality over

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quantity. I think that consumers, they have the

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advantage or not disadvantage, but, you know, they have the,

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they have a. An excess of product available to

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them now. And I think they're much more sophisticated than

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they used to be. They, they just, as a baseline, expect it to

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be good and drinkable. It sounds silly and we laugh about it. You know, obviously

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we've always wanted that, but I just think that that

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that has to be the default. I talk a lot with people

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about that. You know, I can't help you if you don't have a

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good product. It has to start there. It has to be drinkable and good,

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and there's no reason why it shouldn't be. But then when you

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start to go beyond that, you know, obviously I think the

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palette has changed to some extent. I hate to get too deep into that

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because I think again, we, we make assumptions about

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consumers, you know, in the US and beyond that are. Sometimes

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we get ahead of ourselves. I do think the style has changed,

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people's palates have changed. They expect more refined product.

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They know when it's not right. They know when it doesn't. When it tastes.

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You know, when it's, when it tastes like it's, it's either

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cheap or it doesn't have integration. People know it and they just don't get

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it again. So I think

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quality has to be there. And increasingly quality

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that is recognized, you know, beyond just

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a basic, basic level. I might. My

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general advice. And I don't, I don't. I mean, I put myself

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as a consultant because I did it for so long, but I don't seek

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clients in that regard. But I certainly have conversations like this

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is. I've been just telling most of the brands that do make

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honest wine, honest glass of wine that reflects something that has

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a story to tell that to stay the course that this is. Yeah, this,

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this th. This will change. Wine's agricultural.

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It shifts in based on sometimes just

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volume and availability of the grapes. And it has always been an eb and flow

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in our industry for inventory. Yeah, you know it just

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look at sideways did to the industry. Right. I mean it just clobbered Merlot and

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you couldn't find Pinot Noir at a price to save your life at that time.

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So it's pretty, pretty volatile that way. Yes.

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What kind of like have you. When you talk to consultant

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and you do these presentations, have you seen some success stories from

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wineries taking the bull by the horns and

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testing and finding avenues that help them, you know, find their

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clients? Yeah, I mean it really depends

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again on the, on the size of the organization and you

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know, what kind of resources financially they have behind them. But a lot

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of, and again a lot of what I talked about dtc, you don't have

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to spend tons of money to just message things

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appropriately. And I think, I think

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what I'm seeing is more wineries are recognizing

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how important that messaging is. Again,

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number one, you need good juice in the bottle. That has to happen.

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You know. Number two, I think with a lot of wineries having

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that personal connection again, a family story that is

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real, is authentic, isn't, you know, manufactured somewhere is also

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important. And then it's how do I get my message out and

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how important is that? And I don't obviously it

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sounds self serving to say really people should

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work with more people like me to communicate. Whether it's working with

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somebody or just focusing your efforts, you need

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to be able to tell your story not only in materials that you put

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out, but also your team needs to be able to tell your

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story in a way that's consistent. But I agree it doesn't need to be a

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manufactured thing. I don't like working with people like that. I have no interest in

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it. I don't actually think that works anymore. We've seen, we've seen

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these sort of marketing brands get pushed out into our industry

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and what has happened there, in most cases it hasn't been the

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success story they'd hoped for. I think authenticity matters.

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And so yeah, I have seen some really great success stories

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with, with smaller brands believing in their story,

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believing in what they're doing and then Talking about it. And

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it's amazing how, you know, much that can actually impact people's

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awareness of what they're doing and support of their brand.

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Are you trying to tell me that the TV reality

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star, she's since passed and sadly Big Ange.

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And it was brought to me that she had this Prosecco

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line and when they brought them, they were like neon colored

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and flavored with whatever, mango and blueberry and stuff. And I'm like, oh,

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so that you think this is gonna, you think this has staying power? You know,

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like I. And I unfortunately took it on because I was doing

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the distributor a favor because they had done me a favor and I

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was embarrassed, you know, to put it out there. But it was business at that

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point. And so those things never have worked.

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Generally, celebrity, not celebrity wines can work if they actually

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are celebrity wines, but celebrity endorsed wines where there's just a

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30% cut, tend not to work. But I had people come in

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here too, and pitch

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packaging changes that they thought. One woman even suggested that Lafitte

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Rashild would come in a can one day. Wow. And these

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seem to be innovation in

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00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,360
our trade, but sort of misguided in that

232
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,620
they're more interested in building a brand so they could sell the brand

233
00:14:36,620 --> 00:14:39,900
and become that next billionaire that's in the industry or the next

234
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,500
skinny, skinny girl Margarita

235
00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:47,300
versus putting on the street a product, a product of

236
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:50,980
quality that tells, that actually in itself tells a story.

237
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:55,220
Right. I see a lot of that. And I, I

238
00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:58,220
just did a thing and you mentioned something important because it takes the resources to

239
00:14:58,220 --> 00:15:02,020
do this. And I just posted a piece from a Shovel Blanc interview I did,

240
00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:05,760
and he talks about like, you're gonna lose if you're

241
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,440
gonna take on the current marketability of

242
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,000
a, of a beverage. Let's take non alk for a second. What have you seen

243
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,360
in the non alk world as it

244
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,280
growing still, or is this sort of still growing?

245
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,240
You know, I think there's, there's still some question as to quality,

246
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,160
you know, and what that, what that, what those products

247
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,820
are actually going, what they do for the

248
00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:36,380
consumer. You know, I think I've always felt it's,

249
00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:39,780
it's pretty tough, I think, to, to

250
00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:43,540
recreate the exact or similar experience that a wine with

251
00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:47,260
alcohol has with a non alcohol or de alcoholized

252
00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:49,980
wine. But I think,

253
00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:54,300
you know, I think that the products are getting better. There is

254
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:58,220
definitely an interest in them whether it's, you know,

255
00:15:58,220 --> 00:16:02,020
again, non elk wine or whether it's non elk as well as non elk spirits.

256
00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:05,580
And, you know, Beer is pretty far along in this

257
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:09,060
category anyway. So I anecdotally see it and

258
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,059
the data supports that there's a growing interest

259
00:16:13,220 --> 00:16:15,700
in consuming these products.

260
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,940
I'm still waiting for the really, really great

261
00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:24,500
dealcoholized wine products or non elk wines. I haven't.

262
00:16:24,830 --> 00:16:28,510
There are a few that I can drink and I can support

263
00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:32,350
and tell people to drink, but I don't think we're quite there yet. I think

264
00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:35,310
we're further along in beer and I think in spirits

265
00:16:36,670 --> 00:16:40,270
it's not going anywhere. I think fundamentally,

266
00:16:41,310 --> 00:16:44,750
maybe I'm a romanticist, but I think it fundamentally is

267
00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:49,150
divergent from what wine is and should be that intellectual part of a meal.

268
00:16:49,150 --> 00:16:52,190
And I certainly understand people that don't need to drink or have

269
00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:56,730
physical issue. But let's talk about what you just said. The. And the

270
00:16:56,730 --> 00:17:00,570
idea of waiting for that brand that actually represents.

271
00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:04,170
I'm not sure what it's to represent, but isn't the concept of the

272
00:17:04,170 --> 00:17:06,770
alkalization wine in itself, the way it's made

273
00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:11,970
gonna. Going to restrict the

274
00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,490
quality that it can come out of it? Because just for the listeners, you know,

275
00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:18,410
they deal the wine, they have to make the wine. So you start with good

276
00:17:18,410 --> 00:17:21,100
grapes, you have to start with good juice. At least a think you're going to

277
00:17:21,100 --> 00:17:24,820
get a palatable product and then take the alcohol out and that

278
00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:28,340
ends up being more than the 14% alcohol. It ends up being about

279
00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:32,020
30% of the volume. You can't live with that. So we put

280
00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:35,620
something back in to get the volume back to where we need it. And that's

281
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:38,540
either water and flavoring agents. So

282
00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:42,540
it almost seems by nature we're not going to get to a point where.

283
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,980
I don't know, maybe what. Maybe we're thinking we're going to get to a point

284
00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:50,780
where the wine. Where this d alk wine expresses something. Yeah, I

285
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:53,640
guess that's more of what. I guess that's a better way of putting it because

286
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,040
I. You're right. I. I don't know, given what

287
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,880
necessarily needs to happen, that you'll ever have something

288
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,480
that you can compare in the same way. So that's probably unrealistic, but I

289
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,720
think I'd like to see just maybe a better

290
00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:12,160
understanding of how to create expression in that product. I don't.

291
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,840
Because a lot of it really does taste just sort of slightly

292
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,590
watered down. And. And I. You know, I. I also think

293
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:23,510
a big part of what people are looking for beyond

294
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:27,350
someone who chooses not to or cannot drink is

295
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:31,150
the experience of. Right. I mean. And I talk a lot about

296
00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:34,230
this. There's, you know, what's in the glass and then there's everything

297
00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:38,270
around that, which is the environment, the social aspect

298
00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:41,830
of pouring something like that and sitting together with somebody,

299
00:18:41,910 --> 00:18:45,710
whether you're talking about the product itself or you're just in this environment where

300
00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:49,530
it feels like I'm relaxing, I'm doing something enjoyable. So

301
00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:53,370
I think it can be very. Already there can be. It

302
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:57,130
can provide that. You know, I think it's hard for people who have chosen not

303
00:18:57,130 --> 00:19:00,970
to drink sometimes to be in a social environment. And

304
00:19:00,970 --> 00:19:04,810
everyone's, you know, has something nice in their glass and they're sort of like, well,

305
00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:08,330
I'm drinking, you know, water and fruit juice. So I think it can

306
00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:11,570
provide, you know, on a lifestyle perspective,

307
00:19:12,380 --> 00:19:15,900
it can provide a lot. The quality perspective. To me,

308
00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:20,060
you know, as a wine person who would like to be able to drink these

309
00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:23,900
more comfortably at times, I'd like to see it get a little bit better.

310
00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:27,340
I don't know. And I'm not, you know, I'm not an expert in that product.

311
00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:31,180
They don't know the full, you know, process of how they're. Or even

312
00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:35,020
the experimentation that's going on right now. But I. I'm optimistic

313
00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:37,980
that a lot is being put into this because of the demand.

314
00:19:39,010 --> 00:19:42,650
So it'll be interesting to see, I suppose. I suppose. You know, I featured a

315
00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:45,090
wine feature. I used to sell a wine during.

316
00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:49,850
During the holidays for gift baskets for the non alk or D alk

317
00:19:49,850 --> 00:19:53,650
people. Yeah. But it wasn't. It was a deal wine. It was actually white

318
00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:57,410
zinfandel that they had picked and. And crushed

319
00:19:58,210 --> 00:20:01,290
and then put it in the bottle as just grape juice. So we got a

320
00:20:01,290 --> 00:20:05,090
cork finished glass bottle with the same label at the winery was making. It

321
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:07,330
was called Castoro Cellars in El Paso.

322
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:12,550
But the winemaker's comment was, I have a hard time making this because I

323
00:20:12,550 --> 00:20:15,870
have to stop. I have to prevent fermentation. Yeah,

324
00:20:16,270 --> 00:20:19,990
right. So it wants to ferment on its own and just do it because there's

325
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:23,350
some yeast in the air and there's yeast on the skins. And so I had

326
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:26,750
to, like, immediately arrest the fermentation to get it in the bottle before.

327
00:20:27,310 --> 00:20:30,910
And then hopefully it didn't, you know, secondary ferment and make champagne.

328
00:20:31,790 --> 00:20:35,590
Champagne. So I thought it was really interesting. That naturally it wants to do

329
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:39,430
that. I mean, in some ways, like you say you're just. You are having

330
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:42,630
to disrupt a natural process. And I think

331
00:20:43,030 --> 00:20:46,790
the question is, how much do we really understand of how to.

332
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:50,709
In a way Manipulate that properly to produce a better product. I think

333
00:20:50,709 --> 00:20:54,510
we're still in early stages. I think that somebody. Would you

334
00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:57,630
consult with somebody like, let's say there's a winery comes to you and they're all

335
00:20:57,630 --> 00:20:59,990
like, there's a lot of them. And we will talk about this in a second

336
00:20:59,990 --> 00:21:03,560
about sort of the divergency of some of these people that are still doing really

337
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,800
well and the some that are really struggling. Yeah, but would you tell them, hey,

338
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,120
make a. Don't you deox some of your stuff and add that to your

339
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:13,800
portfolio? I don't know. Yeah, it would be

340
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,640
easy. Certainly there are people doing that. I mean, you see it, you see some

341
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,240
of the bigger brands are doing that. I wouldn't try to lead them

342
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,800
into that if it wasn't something they were already considering. I don't know

343
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,320
that. I don't know that that's necessary. You know,

344
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,090
obviously people are looking for solutions and they, in their minds,

345
00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:35,930
that's a bit of a fallback that they might find comfortable. Like, well, at

346
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:38,930
least we have this. But at the very least, I do

347
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:43,410
tell them, you know, make sure you have something, whether you partner

348
00:21:43,410 --> 00:21:47,209
with somebody or, you know, whatever it is, have something available in

349
00:21:47,209 --> 00:21:50,610
your tasting room for these people who come in. Because that,

350
00:21:51,170 --> 00:21:54,130
that. I just think it's important to

351
00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:58,690
stand behind this idea of choice, which we know is a big part

352
00:21:58,690 --> 00:22:02,130
of discussions that are going on right now in our industry with, you know, with

353
00:22:02,130 --> 00:22:05,650
these other products like the cannabis products, the non elk, the

354
00:22:06,610 --> 00:22:10,210
spirits and beer. I think it's important to be. To embrace that

355
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:13,970
and show your consumers that you embrace that if they, if they want that.

356
00:22:14,530 --> 00:22:17,890
But I, yeah, it's come up, you know, I've seen some,

357
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:21,730
some reports where. And just some people on the

358
00:22:21,730 --> 00:22:25,170
marketing end posting about people, you know, you should definitely consider

359
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:28,820
producing, producing a non Elk or a, you know, D Elk or a low

360
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:32,380
Elk product. And I, I don't. I would feel

361
00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:36,140
nervous about just pushing somebody in that direction if they

362
00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:39,980
weren't. It would be risky. I think it's risky. Risky as a consultant.

363
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:42,340
Like, yeah, do this and then it just falls on his face. And then you're,

364
00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:46,020
it's, it's. You're screwed. If they're already really into that

365
00:22:46,020 --> 00:22:49,860
idea and for whatever reason from either, you know, a, a

366
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:53,620
business perspective or a personal reason, you know, fine, then

367
00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:57,330
I'm, I support that. And it's always great to have something else that you can

368
00:22:57,330 --> 00:23:01,010
talk about that's timely, but if they're not already kind of in

369
00:23:01,010 --> 00:23:04,770
that space I don't know. Yeah, I don't think I would. Would tell them

370
00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:08,050
to chase it because I, you know, it's not the easiest thing to produce, as

371
00:23:08,050 --> 00:23:11,770
we said, and it's costly, you know, in, in its own way

372
00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:15,050
to, to start producing another product with a different process.

373
00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:19,530
But there is big, there is big money being

374
00:23:19,530 --> 00:23:23,050
spent. I think Wein Hooligans or

375
00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:27,220
used to be Cinema 980 just bought the largest YAL company in

376
00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:30,700
America and they're a huge bulk wine vendor. Yeah.

377
00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:35,340
You know, it's funny, anecdotally, I was at Whole Foods not too long ago and

378
00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:38,660
they were pouring off non al

379
00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:42,260
Corona beer, but they still had the

380
00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:45,740
stanchions up and it said must be 21. Oh, really

381
00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:49,580
interesting. This is non alcohol. You know, that is a very

382
00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:53,770
interesting. Again, this isn't my, you

383
00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:57,530
know, full wheelhouse the non elk world, but I certainly have friends who are in

384
00:23:57,530 --> 00:24:01,330
it and you know, and, and that has come up. Is it okay for

385
00:24:01,330 --> 00:24:05,170
young like for. For young people to drink like some of this non

386
00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:08,530
elk bubbly? And it's, it's making

387
00:24:08,690 --> 00:24:12,210
parents a little nervous because some of them are actually pretty good

388
00:24:13,170 --> 00:24:16,570
and that, you know, it. I'm not a

389
00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:19,650
conservative person when it comes. I think, you know, I think the more you restrict

390
00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:23,050
people from things, the more interesting it becomes to them. I'm. I'm not a parent.

391
00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:26,550
I don't. But I've certainly seen that, you know, so it's like the

392
00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:29,910
European model to me has always been smart. Give them a little taste and you

393
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:33,630
know, raise them responsibly around this stuff. But I do

394
00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:37,310
think it's an interesting question like should a kid be able just to go into

395
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,990
a store and buy a bottle of that? They should. I guess

396
00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:45,070
by. I mean, I don't know what, what. I

397
00:24:45,070 --> 00:24:48,750
don't know if it becomes a teeth. This is an

398
00:24:48,750 --> 00:24:52,350
issue actually depending on which state you're in, whether it's a. We'll get off this

399
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:55,670
non alk subject. But whether it's a TTB thing or whether it's a food or

400
00:24:55,670 --> 00:24:59,230
whether it's part of their alcohol beverage control and, and

401
00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:03,070
there's. There's two schools of thoughts there. Some treat it

402
00:25:03,070 --> 00:25:06,910
as food. It's not a problem. Yeah. Do you, do you

403
00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:10,590
think then you mentioned it earlier and maybe you

404
00:25:10,590 --> 00:25:14,110
talk about this at your conferences, but you think the

405
00:25:14,110 --> 00:25:17,670
pressure in the wine trade and the consumption issue that they're having, which by the

406
00:25:17,670 --> 00:25:21,330
way, we sold more wine in America than we did the year before from

407
00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:25,130
2024. But do you think, do you think cannabis, non

408
00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:28,970
alk, low alk seltzers, you know, these

409
00:25:29,050 --> 00:25:32,730
flavored up things really are putting pressure on the wine trade.

410
00:25:33,290 --> 00:25:36,490
Do you think that's a, that's a decision being made like, I'm not gonna drink

411
00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:40,210
wine, I'm gonna drink these things instead? I mean, I think there's

412
00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:43,290
no doubt if somebody has X amount of dollars to spend on,

413
00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:47,590
you know, food, drink, that the more that they

414
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:51,430
have to consider it might impact, you

415
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:54,870
know, what they spend on wine. But I, I don't know that it's really

416
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:58,430
changed that much. I think it's important

417
00:25:58,590 --> 00:26:02,150
not to be afraid of these other categories, but try to find

418
00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:04,750
ways to just make sure that wine's at that table.

419
00:26:05,870 --> 00:26:09,710
I think, you know, this especially

420
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:13,470
these younger consumers, but I actually believe in general we just,

421
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,360
we are much more driven by having choice

422
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,200
dependent on, you know, our mood or the environment or

423
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,000
whatever is happening and, and wine needs to be in the mix. I

424
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,760
don't, I haven't seen any data that has proven to me that these

425
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,560
other categories are really, you know, impacting consumption

426
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,360
to a level that we can trace. I'm sure there,

427
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:40,080
there may be reports out there that I haven't seen. I keep waiting for that

428
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,080
because I think that would be an easy answer to say, oh yeah, you know,

429
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,560
we need to, we need to, we need to do some market research on, you

430
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,920
know, cannabis users and get more in that space or whatever. But I haven't

431
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,240
seen that. I think people are making, just making choices and,

432
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,520
you know, I, I don't know that we can use that as an example

433
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000
of what we need to do. I just, what I do think is we just

434
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,800
haven't been doing as a category and I

435
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,600
did talk a lot about this at the DTC conferences. We haven't been doing

436
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,390
as good a job as talking to our audiences and keeping them

437
00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:17,110
engaged as some of these other categories have. So I don't know

438
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:20,950
that it's, you know, that it's a fight of product, you know,

439
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:24,590
taking our, our, our share. It's more just we haven't

440
00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:28,390
been great at staying in front of people and

441
00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:32,190
keeping them consuming what we're doing that triggers a thought.

442
00:27:33,550 --> 00:27:36,630
I usually wear a jacket when I'm sitting here. I don't realize I'm not wearing

443
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:39,230
my jacket. Oh my God.

444
00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:44,110
We could stop this discussion. We start over

445
00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:48,190
on, on the jacket is a les. I mean, the event patch. And I've talked

446
00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:51,510
about this before, but it was an organization. My dad had a chapter in

447
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:55,070
1975 or so. And, and it was, you know, a wine

448
00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:58,830
enthusiast group. It was consumers that visited the store and he would put

449
00:27:58,830 --> 00:28:02,590
on events and Robert Madavi spoke and Lawrence Bowser and all the fame. Harry Waugh

450
00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:06,220
even came and, and I'm thinking that wine

451
00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:09,980
is going back that direction because in order to

452
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:13,740
get the thought process in order what wine represents, the sense of

453
00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:16,980
time and place and that you have memory of that glass of wine.

454
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:21,459
In fact, I wrote down a note here about the non alk. Like I never,

455
00:28:21,459 --> 00:28:24,580
I'm not going to crave a non alkaline. No one will ever be at work.

456
00:28:24,580 --> 00:28:28,100
And gee, I just feel like a non alkaline when I get home because it's

457
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:31,620
more of a, it's more of a social thing. But I do crave having a.

458
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,140
During the day I might crave having a Bordeaux or having a conversation with a

459
00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:37,960
Burgundy maker and just want to go home and have a glass of Burgundy because

460
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,760
of the memory of the sense which takes you the experiential side

461
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,520
of wine. Yes. And I was talking to Violet Gage a couple

462
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,160
days ago and she was saying that, you know, their, their tasting room traffic

463
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,840
is clobbered right now. Yeah.

464
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,160
You know, there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, I don't know if

465
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,640
you know this. I just learned this really from another

466
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,920
wine tasting. I do. I don't usually taste wine when I go to Napa, I

467
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,660
just go. But I actually went to a tasting and

468
00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:10,700
the woman was saying that Napa hotels

469
00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:15,180
have been holding their 30% occupancy

470
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:19,140
on purpose by not dropping their prices because

471
00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:22,700
they can get away with less staff and a skeleton staff and do a part

472
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,260
time labor and not have to deal with all the full time costs that California

473
00:29:26,260 --> 00:29:29,860
has put these people into. And so their prices have not come

474
00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:33,230
down. The our old room that we used to like is

475
00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:36,310
$1200. I'm not spending that kind of money. Wow. A night.

476
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:40,470
But then that's why there's nobody in the Valley.

477
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:44,590
But at the same time, I think the experience of

478
00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:47,750
wine is where that needs to go. Yeah,

479
00:29:48,550 --> 00:29:51,990
let me reference this. We were talking about DTC. I mean my dad started the

480
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:54,710
idea of DTC in 1972. It was

481
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:58,910
serendipitously I just start delivering them, the

482
00:29:58,910 --> 00:30:02,750
selections to our local clients. But when I stood at a booth at

483
00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:05,630
the LA County Fair for 12 days in a row, for eight hours to 12

484
00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:07,550
hours a day, just make sure I throw that out there.

485
00:30:09,630 --> 00:30:13,350
That was an experience for people. Yeah, they came up, they go watch this one

486
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:16,550
of the month club. How do you do it? And we tell the story, we

487
00:30:16,550 --> 00:30:19,630
shake their hand, and now they've come away when that box shows up.

488
00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:24,040
Oh, I remember that guy. Really interesting conversation. No

489
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,800
question. I mean, this is definitely, again, when I say

490
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,360
it's. When we say it's important to look at things both anecdotally and,

491
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,160
and as far as the data goes, there's no question that people who visit

492
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,880
wineries, there's a better return. They are more connected to the brand,

493
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:43,000
they are more loyal to the brand. Even in a time when everyone complains that

494
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,920
no one's loyal anymore to brands, there,

495
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,570
there's no question. I mean, you go to a winery, you

496
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:53,890
are on the grounds of the winery, you are meeting people

497
00:30:53,890 --> 00:30:57,450
associated with that brand. Hopefully you have a good experience. I mean, this is the

498
00:30:57,450 --> 00:31:01,170
other thing that is important for, for wineries and brands

499
00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:04,849
to recognize they really need to be buttoned up. You know,

500
00:31:04,849 --> 00:31:07,570
when I say buttoned up, they need to know who their audience is and what

501
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:11,210
kind of experience they're providing. You know, whether it's in a

502
00:31:11,210 --> 00:31:15,010
garage or whether it's in a fancy winery. Because people will take

503
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:18,510
that away with them. And it really does impact their

504
00:31:18,510 --> 00:31:22,150
choice going forward. And I see it even with friends of

505
00:31:22,150 --> 00:31:24,670
mine because I have a lot of industry friends, but I have a lot of

506
00:31:24,670 --> 00:31:27,670
friends who are not in the industry, but they travel and they're big wine and

507
00:31:27,670 --> 00:31:31,150
food people and it's amazing. They'll come back from Chile

508
00:31:31,310 --> 00:31:35,150
or, you know, from Portugal and they just are gushing

509
00:31:35,150 --> 00:31:38,990
about this location and this property. And even if the

510
00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:42,830
wine is good, but not the best ever, it's

511
00:31:42,830 --> 00:31:45,910
got to be good. As we said, it's a. They will, they will put their

512
00:31:45,910 --> 00:31:49,490
money towards that brand. They'll keep buying it every year, they'll look for it. So

513
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:53,290
anyway, I think it's as much the on site experience

514
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:57,090
as the people that like you were representing, you

515
00:31:57,090 --> 00:32:00,570
know, this, this idea, it's so important

516
00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:04,490
now. And I actually think it doesn't surprise me given,

517
00:32:04,490 --> 00:32:07,810
you know, that we were all remote for so long and the

518
00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:11,610
direction that things have gone in, you know, with this kind of

519
00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:15,290
increased isolation. There are pros and cons to all

520
00:32:15,530 --> 00:32:19,050
of that. I think I'm seeing people really want to be

521
00:32:19,050 --> 00:32:22,570
in person, they want to have interaction with people.

522
00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:27,210
So doesn't surprise me. And I, you know, I talked to you

523
00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:30,890
a little bit about this. Well, I. Travel

524
00:32:30,890 --> 00:32:34,410
was another thing. So winery visits, Eno tourism,

525
00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:38,090
that was another category that I talked about in, in the

526
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:41,770
DTC keynote. But I, I'm also

527
00:32:41,770 --> 00:32:45,410
doing work in it. And I just believe strongly that, you know,

528
00:32:45,410 --> 00:32:48,330
wine travel is, is a sort of a bright spot right now.

529
00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:53,340
The stats are pretty encouraging and have been for several years. It is a

530
00:32:53,340 --> 00:32:57,180
segment of travel. It's a special interest segment that

531
00:32:57,180 --> 00:33:00,020
is one of the fastest growing in travel

532
00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:04,340
overall. So, you know, travel agents,

533
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:08,380
travel, travel industry people, you know, have been coming to me for a

534
00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:11,860
while saying, okay, we don't really know much about wine and wineries,

535
00:33:12,660 --> 00:33:16,460
but watching these numbers and holy crap, you

536
00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:20,140
know, how do we get into this game? Because we're

537
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:23,660
being asked to do this. So I think it's just proof

538
00:33:23,660 --> 00:33:27,460
that this is a growing interest of, you know, of travelers.

539
00:33:27,620 --> 00:33:31,139
It's important that, you know that businesses are

540
00:33:31,139 --> 00:33:34,180
ready to receive them and give them a great experience.

541
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:39,060
And it's, it's. There's a lot of untapped potential in

542
00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:42,830
that area, in my opinion. I think, I think that's right on,

543
00:33:44,030 --> 00:33:47,630
you know, tourism. I'm Armenian, I've been Armenia. I'm going to send you a

544
00:33:47,630 --> 00:33:51,350
link to a video I've created there about. And

545
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:55,110
they have a whole, you know, tourism group that is working on that.

546
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:58,590
The army is a, you know, a tough country to travel to if you're

547
00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:02,230
expecting European, you know, types of accommodations.

548
00:34:02,230 --> 00:34:05,230
They had them, but not all over the country. Right

549
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:10,310
downtown. But I think, you know, tourism is important. And I just took a group.

550
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:16,030
You know, we go to Monaco for the races and for the listeners,

551
00:34:16,030 --> 00:34:19,710
it's, you have to go. It's. Yes, it feels like it's expensive on the

552
00:34:19,710 --> 00:34:23,350
surface, but it really isn't because the, the, the entertainment value is so

553
00:34:23,350 --> 00:34:27,030
high. And so I, I told some friends

554
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:30,390
and I, they've always said no, and I just do it to be nice. But

555
00:34:30,390 --> 00:34:34,059
they all said yes this time. So I ended up with 12 people, including my

556
00:34:34,059 --> 00:34:37,899
wife. Wow. And we started in Pimonte and it was so interesting

557
00:34:37,899 --> 00:34:41,539
because it was clear that, that they didn't entertain a

558
00:34:41,539 --> 00:34:45,339
lot. But I know people go to Pimonte. Yeah. And we dropped into

559
00:34:45,339 --> 00:34:48,418
Monaco for the race. We had four days and then we went to Bordeaux. And

560
00:34:48,418 --> 00:34:51,819
I, after it was over, it was, it was unbelievable because everything

561
00:34:51,899 --> 00:34:55,339
worked like, I'll never do this again, take 12 people on a tour.

562
00:34:55,579 --> 00:34:59,339
Because everything worked. Yeah. There were no problems. Nobody complained.

563
00:34:59,339 --> 00:35:02,400
They had a great time. But the point of it was, the point was I

564
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,920
don't know what we would have done despite the fact being in the trade with

565
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,520
our time. I mean, you know, tourism is so Fun

566
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,520
because you visit with these people who have this mysterious industry

567
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,760
they work in and you get to hear the, the fascinations and the back house

568
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,560
stories of what goes on at a winery that, you know, our whole tour,

569
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,720
except for the race, was really, you know, tourism. Not deliberately. But

570
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,600
I kept thinking, okay, I've been Eiffel Tower, you know, how many

571
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,360
times, right, you go to the. We were in Sicily, we went to all the,

572
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,680
all the ruins and how many times. But man, we went to the winery.

573
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,720
Winery and cooking. Those are the two things that were

574
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,560
really cool to do and interactive and sort of, well, I

575
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,120
mean, such a. Direct line to culture and such a direct line and

576
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,840
personal line people. And you know, you made a

577
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,560
point there that's I think, really important, which is you've done, you've

578
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,400
already done all of the standard

579
00:35:59,150 --> 00:36:01,470
experiences and visits in these markets, right?

580
00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:07,070
And that's where I think, you know, tourism is so exciting because you have

581
00:36:07,070 --> 00:36:10,870
people who may think they, you know, they've been all over France

582
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:14,070
or say they've been, you know, they've been to New York City, whatever, but they've

583
00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:17,790
never necessarily done it from a perspective of wine and food. It's such an.

584
00:36:18,030 --> 00:36:21,830
Another layer and a new experience. You don't. And I

585
00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:25,310
love the idea of Armenia and you know, there's so many incredible

586
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:29,670
parts of the world making wine now that I just think are fascinating.

587
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:33,630
So I'm all about that. But it's also pretty cool that there's this

588
00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:37,110
new layer that people are discovering of already

589
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:40,550
discovered places, but they can approach

590
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:44,150
with a new angle and it

591
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:48,670
makes those destinations sort of new again. And I

592
00:36:48,670 --> 00:36:52,140
think that's where I'm seeing a lot of demand,

593
00:36:52,380 --> 00:36:56,140
you know, and I think that makes sense. Again with, with these really saturated

594
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:59,900
the Paris, New York or, or Napa or. People

595
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,180
just are looking for new angles all the time, meaning

596
00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:06,860
travelers. And this is a great one. And you're right, you could spend your entire

597
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:10,540
trip easily just on cuisine or on wine or on

598
00:37:10,540 --> 00:37:14,340
both. And it's, it's connected to everything else, in

599
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:18,070
my opinion. Wine is wonderful for that reason. It's connected

600
00:37:18,070 --> 00:37:21,910
to history and culture and architecture and people. And so there's already

601
00:37:21,910 --> 00:37:25,190
a great trip in there just by focusing on wine.

602
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:29,550
That's a really good point. If you're, if you were to pick the definition of

603
00:37:29,550 --> 00:37:32,870
culture, you know, and I say this once in a while, like

604
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:36,830
language would certainly, if you have a language, like Armenia has a language. Not all

605
00:37:36,830 --> 00:37:40,670
cultures have their separate language. Or the land, if you

606
00:37:40,670 --> 00:37:44,180
have it. Some countries don't have any more land. But certainly food and

607
00:37:44,180 --> 00:37:47,940
wine. Wine would be one of the great expressions of somebody's culture

608
00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:51,380
in the history of that wine. We're part of it. You know, it's interesting. There's,

609
00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:55,140
you know, the, the wine district here in Southern California, Temecula,

610
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:59,140
which you know, as a DTZ vendor, we maybe featured three

611
00:37:59,140 --> 00:38:02,980
wines in the last 25 years from Temecula because the, the,

612
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:06,820
it's not a standard. There have been a few that have come through

613
00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:10,940
but the tourism, the wine tourism there is incredible. And

614
00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:14,250
my, my son in law's like, hey, you gotta buy a winery down there. And

615
00:38:14,250 --> 00:38:17,930
I'm like, I don't think I'm buying a winery when I buy into

616
00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:21,610
Michael. I'm buying a, you know, tourism. Like

617
00:38:21,610 --> 00:38:24,530
you're not buying a brand that you're going to put in the wholesale chains and

618
00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:28,170
try to think you might put them. Yeah, you're,

619
00:38:28,170 --> 00:38:31,930
you're buying the idea. You're going to be a hospitality company and.

620
00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:35,530
Yes. Is that you think that's a barrier for a lot of wineries,

621
00:38:35,530 --> 00:38:38,700
like understanding they're part of really hospitality.

622
00:38:39,340 --> 00:38:43,180
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think it's. And it's a lot to ask.

623
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:46,900
Let's be fair. You know, we're listing off there's. And I

624
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:50,740
think about that a lot. So it's a lot to ask for, especially a smaller

625
00:38:50,740 --> 00:38:54,260
winery that might not have a huge team and you know, might have somewhat

626
00:38:54,260 --> 00:38:57,980
limited finances to, to be all these things,

627
00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:01,180
you know, you need to be an expert in hospitality. You should be a communications

628
00:39:01,420 --> 00:39:05,140
expert. You better make really great wine. You should know the trends by the way.

629
00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:08,810
You should be sustainable if you can. You know, we, we're asking a lot.

630
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:13,530
A lot of moving parts there. Well, that's its own thing. Yeah,

631
00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:16,850
I mean, you know, we're asking a lot and it is a lot to try

632
00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:20,650
to be on top of all these things. But hospitality? Yes. I mean to me

633
00:39:20,970 --> 00:39:24,810
I think that it's especially when as we said, you're

634
00:39:24,810 --> 00:39:28,610
so close to something, you think something's happening. You might be

635
00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:32,330
running a winery and you're the owner and you've got a couple.

636
00:39:32,330 --> 00:39:36,170
Maybe you have somebody from your family or you know, a person that you've

637
00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:39,690
trained to be in that tasting room. You're not there all day. You don't always

638
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:43,250
know what those interactions are. Some, you know,

639
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:46,810
just understanding when someone walks in the door, what the level of

640
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:50,650
understanding, being able to get a read on a person when they come

641
00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:53,730
in to taste wine. Are they looking for just

642
00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:57,930
some really fun facts and just an enjoyable moment with their friends

643
00:39:57,930 --> 00:40:01,740
and please leave me alone. Are they, you

644
00:40:01,740 --> 00:40:05,300
know, usually this is a smaller percentage of people, but you get. Are they

645
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:09,020
wine knowledgeable and they really want to drill down into, you know, the science

646
00:40:09,020 --> 00:40:12,420
of what you're doing. And they want to talk, you know, soil and ph

647
00:40:12,580 --> 00:40:16,340
and you know, that's hard. You need to be somebody who has a

648
00:40:16,340 --> 00:40:20,100
bit of a training and understanding of how to read what's

649
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:22,980
walking in the door and then having some options for those people.

650
00:40:24,020 --> 00:40:27,540
It's so, yeah. I mean, I think hospitality is

651
00:40:28,270 --> 00:40:31,950
absolutely necessary if you're going to have any

652
00:40:31,950 --> 00:40:34,590
type of, you know, accessible

653
00:40:35,630 --> 00:40:39,310
location for your brand. That's a crazy good

654
00:40:39,630 --> 00:40:43,350
thought. And I just, I thought

655
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:47,070
of maybe think of something and it's a huge

656
00:40:47,070 --> 00:40:50,750
issue that's going on as it probably always has. But the

657
00:40:50,750 --> 00:40:54,550
discussions are public now on social networking and that is, you know, we're trying

658
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:58,280
to dumb down the business. I think that's a total hoax. Wine is

659
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,920
not to be dumbed down. It's a complicated product. You can learn as much as

660
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,040
you want to learn. You can not learn as much as you want to learn.

661
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,920
But it's not to be dumbed down to make it more accessible because that's

662
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,600
impossible to do. Yeah. But it does take a

663
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,440
read. And I reference. This is probably

664
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,800
30 years ago. I took my wife to Napa for the first time. I think

665
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,520
maybe it was not my first time, but her first time. And

666
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,090
the tasting room person said something to her

667
00:41:26,330 --> 00:41:28,330
that she considered quite insulting.

668
00:41:30,090 --> 00:41:33,370
And she has not forgotten that. When I see that brand on the shelf and

669
00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:36,370
I won't throw them under the bus on the shelf or we drive by the

670
00:41:36,370 --> 00:41:40,170
winery again, it always comes out that this person

671
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:43,930
said this to her and that's she'll never drink it again. That's

672
00:41:43,930 --> 00:41:47,650
amazing. I go, wow. You know, just. You just triggered that thought. I haven't thought

673
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:51,250
about that story for a long time. Just. And. And it has a lot to

674
00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:55,000
do with, you're right. Reading that person that comes up instead of

675
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,760
start talking about this. The, you know, the bricks and the acid

676
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,440
content and the ph. Why don't we find out what they're interested in knowing.

677
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,360
Yeah. And where. How deep they want to go. And you're right, you don't have

678
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,160
to dumb it down. But you should know what kind of how far you know,

679
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,920
you want them to. How far to drill down. And I think sometimes

680
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,640
it's amazing how you can just read. Just look at their face. I

681
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,640
Know this, I have to deal with this as an educator. When I do some

682
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,440
of this consumer facing stuff, I look at people and I

683
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,200
look into their eyes. Are they glazing over?

684
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,680
Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, not from the wine they're drinking, but

685
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,960
are they checking out? You know, and, and so some of it is on the

686
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,040
fly and just being a little bit smarter and better at that. I, I know

687
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,360
that sometimes intrinsically people are better at that, but,

688
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,640
but, you know, I think also recognizing again, on

689
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,140
the hospitality end, a lot of people already

690
00:42:49,220 --> 00:42:52,860
feel vulnerable learning about wine. We're all trying to help that

691
00:42:52,860 --> 00:42:56,660
and change that. But like to your wife, to the point of your, the

692
00:42:56,660 --> 00:42:59,460
story with your wife. I mean, and I don't know what her level was, but

693
00:42:59,460 --> 00:43:03,060
like, you know, someone coming in is already feeling a little exposed

694
00:43:03,060 --> 00:43:06,900
probably because if they don't know a ton about it, they

695
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,660
might feel like they're afraid to speak up or whatever. And if you

696
00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:14,780
are careless or hasty and you in

697
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:18,230
whatever way kind of make them feel that they're not up to

698
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:21,670
scratch or demean them, forget it. You're right. I mean, people

699
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:25,510
remember that and they don't come back. And it could even impact the area that

700
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:29,070
the winery is in. If somebody has an association with people in

701
00:43:29,070 --> 00:43:32,790
Nap or snobby. I don't like going. And I've heard that, by the way. And

702
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:36,430
I, you know, Napa has so many great experiences. But, you know,

703
00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:40,070
maybe early on there were some people that didn't behave very well in those

704
00:43:40,070 --> 00:43:43,790
tasting rooms with, with the novices. And you still hear

705
00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:47,350
people saying, well, I'll, I go to Snowmer, I'll go to the Central

706
00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:51,190
Coast. They're a lot more, you know, relaxed about things. And it's like, it's

707
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:54,990
too bad because I think it's really changed. I think a lot of the Napa

708
00:43:54,990 --> 00:43:58,670
wineries do a great job, but it's, you know, the consumers

709
00:43:58,670 --> 00:44:02,350
don't forget, especially if you don't. If you make them embarrass them

710
00:44:02,509 --> 00:44:06,190
or just all you have to do is just have a dialogue,

711
00:44:06,190 --> 00:44:09,990
like you said, find out what they're interested, maybe even ask them that question. What

712
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:13,610
are you interested in? Well, you know, the, I don't think

713
00:44:13,610 --> 00:44:16,530
the other thing that's happening on the Internet is like, I don't know, some of

714
00:44:16,530 --> 00:44:20,330
these gen zers are talking about it. Even millennials, maybe they're

715
00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:23,570
throwing out all this stuff about how, you know, we're missing the point and the

716
00:44:23,570 --> 00:44:27,010
industry's too slow and, and they throw out what we should be doing. I'm like,

717
00:44:27,010 --> 00:44:30,450
what you're talking about are standard old school

718
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:34,210
sales type questions. Yeah. Like you ask an open ended question

719
00:44:34,210 --> 00:44:37,410
about, you know, you don't ask. Yes, no question. You ask questions that help you

720
00:44:37,410 --> 00:44:41,170
understand who the person is. That's not new. This is, this

721
00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:44,970
is how you get trained to sell anything. I sold copiers door to door. I

722
00:44:44,970 --> 00:44:48,410
mean that's those how we, that's how we got people interested was open

723
00:44:48,410 --> 00:44:51,970
ended questions about where they're at and what they're doing

724
00:44:52,770 --> 00:44:56,330
is. But on the flip side of what you're saying, that person

725
00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:59,970
walks into the room and they pay the money. They've raised their hand, they've

726
00:44:59,970 --> 00:45:03,690
already expressed an interest. They want to be there on purpose. They're not being forced.

727
00:45:03,690 --> 00:45:07,290
Well, I guess some guys get forced to go, right? No, they want, they

728
00:45:07,290 --> 00:45:11,030
already have indicated by showing up that they want to learn or at

729
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:14,710
least experience or taste. So yeah, I don't think you

730
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:17,750
should assume they don't want that. But I think a lot of it and you

731
00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:21,550
know, I talk a lot in my career, have talked a lot about not only

732
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:24,510
what you're saying but how you're saying it. And

733
00:45:25,390 --> 00:45:29,030
you made another good point, which is, you know, these are not

734
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:32,870
new approaches. These are like tried and true tactics that people have used

735
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:35,790
in sales forever. I can't figure out why the wine industry

736
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,240
is so resistant to following good models and other categories.

737
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,960
Like we don't have to reinvent the wheel on what we do in, in, in

738
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,720
a lot of this. It's like, look at other areas of business that

739
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:51,560
do things well. You can adapt a lot of that to wine and

740
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,360
wine, you know, communication and wine, you know, And I, I,

741
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,000
I don't know why we do that. I think it's okay. And, and

742
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,400
we, we just get very, we get very sort of insular about that.

743
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:07,270
But. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, Sorry. But at least

744
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:08,070
a good question.

745
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:14,590
It is not like any industry in the world, period. The beverage

746
00:46:14,590 --> 00:46:17,590
is not. And neither is the industry because it doesn't follow any rules

747
00:46:18,070 --> 00:46:21,670
except for those fundamental things we're just talking about in order to understand

748
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:25,430
your client. That's rules. You can't fudge. But

749
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:29,150
there's no other product in the world that has scoring and has

750
00:46:29,150 --> 00:46:32,730
ratings and has periodicals focus on those ratings.

751
00:46:34,570 --> 00:46:37,770
So, and I, but I've been reading and I've been hearing

752
00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:42,010
that a lot of that is not as important as it used to be. That

753
00:46:42,010 --> 00:46:45,650
let's just, you're working with James Suckling, Right now you work with the enthusiasts are

754
00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:48,890
though, are those groups shifting their focus on what

755
00:46:49,130 --> 00:46:52,650
they're presenting to the public through their digital and their

756
00:46:52,890 --> 00:46:56,010
print marketing? Are they still focused on

757
00:46:56,980 --> 00:46:59,980
having the consumer understand what brands are out there and what, what we think the

758
00:46:59,980 --> 00:47:03,660
relative quality is? Yeah, I think they're, you know, I can't

759
00:47:03,660 --> 00:47:07,460
speak to exactly what Enthusiast is doing now. I haven't been there for over three

760
00:47:07,460 --> 00:47:11,300
years. But, but, you know, from what I see and certainly from,

761
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:15,140
you know, knowing what, what the Suckling team is working on,

762
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:19,140
you know, ratings are still front center and that's okay.

763
00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:22,900
I think there is definitely. I'm not one of those people that believes that ratings

764
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:26,720
are a joke and we shouldn't pay attention. I think, I think people want

765
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,120
someone to do the work for them and appreciate it. I think it's

766
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,880
always important to though I say to consumers, it's okay

767
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,720
to like what you like. You know, go ahead, try some of what they

768
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,400
vetted for you. That's a great, you know, to

769
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,160
me that's an advantage to have someone doing that for you and then,

770
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,880
but then taste and make your own decisions. So I think the

771
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,710
trade still relies very heavily on scoring, obviously, so

772
00:47:53,710 --> 00:47:56,870
I don't see it going away anytime soon. I think brands like to have that

773
00:47:57,350 --> 00:48:00,630
and, you know, depending on the model. With some of these

774
00:48:00,630 --> 00:48:04,230
organizations, they do rely on advertising and, you know, they want to keep

775
00:48:04,310 --> 00:48:07,950
their people happy. So. But I think it

776
00:48:07,950 --> 00:48:11,190
just, it's still part of the mix. It's just not the only part of the

777
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:14,630
mix now, you know, and I think that's very true with

778
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:18,870
the younger consumers. I think they'll still look at that, but

779
00:48:19,620 --> 00:48:23,060
they have a. They're more comfortable stepping away from

780
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:27,100
scoring. If they don't agree, well, there's them

781
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:30,060
to try it. But I think if they try it and they're like, okay, well,

782
00:48:30,060 --> 00:48:33,820
you know, X Critic gave this 93 points.

783
00:48:33,820 --> 00:48:37,300
I don't really like it. Not going to keep buying it. I'll just find something

784
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:41,140
else. Maybe I'll try something in the same, you know, varietal category or whatever.

785
00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:45,660
That's an interesting point and it's certainly in its

786
00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:49,360
fundamental value. Let's take Wine of the

787
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,160
Month club. I stood there every Tuesday for 35 years and I

788
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,960
tasted wine from nine to two. And your suppliers,

789
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,280
distributors, whoever wanted to come in, importers could bring it in and I would taste

790
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,360
everything. And my dad, Tommy, I don't care what you smell that you're going to

791
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,680
taste it because you get how you're going to understand the flaws if you don't

792
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,520
taste even the bad stuff. Yeah, but there was a lot of bad stuff.

793
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,480
And in fact, you know, our general

794
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:17,230
percentage of wines that would pass would be

795
00:49:17,230 --> 00:49:20,590
15% of the, of the domestic wines that we tasted

796
00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:24,190
passed and only 5 to 10% of the imported wines would pass

797
00:49:24,190 --> 00:49:25,590
the test. The test was

798
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:31,230
the value of the wine based on where it was from and what was trying

799
00:49:31,230 --> 00:49:34,270
to be in the price. Is it a good wine? And then if it is

800
00:49:34,270 --> 00:49:38,030
a good wine, is it, is the price fair for what it is, you know,

801
00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:41,430
compared to its neighbor? And that's all we did. That's, that was the basis of

802
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:45,210
it. And so I think the rating system does do the same thing. In other

803
00:49:45,210 --> 00:49:49,010
words, we always wondered, and I used to

804
00:49:49,010 --> 00:49:52,210
see the wines that did not pass the Wine of the Month club standard, which

805
00:49:52,210 --> 00:49:56,050
wasn't, you know, it was pretty critical, but, you know, we had to sell

806
00:49:56,050 --> 00:49:59,290
wine too. I would see them on the shelf.

807
00:49:59,530 --> 00:50:03,370
Yeah. And so they were bad. Some of them were just bad.

808
00:50:03,610 --> 00:50:07,290
Right. So they're going to, you know, the idea was you're going to plant the

809
00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:09,290
grapes, you're going to spend all this money, you're going to pick them, you're going

810
00:50:09,290 --> 00:50:11,330
to ferment them. You got to put it in the bottle because you're not going

811
00:50:11,330 --> 00:50:13,850
to throw it away if you don't like it or you're going to blend it

812
00:50:13,850 --> 00:50:16,690
off with something else and sort of have a nuance of a bad wine inside

813
00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:20,450
of something slightly better. And so that

814
00:50:20,450 --> 00:50:23,770
was the real security of what Wine of the Month Club was. And certainly it

815
00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:27,370
seems like here the rating system, maybe you don't agree this is a 95

816
00:50:27,370 --> 00:50:31,210
point wine, but it certainly was something you could drink and you

817
00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:35,170
toss it out. There's no major flaw. I mean, obviously you can't always

818
00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:38,730
ensure that. I shouldn't even say that because per bottle could vary. But

819
00:50:39,850 --> 00:50:43,550
it's, there's no major winemaking flaw or, you know, it's, it's

820
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:47,390
drinkable, it has like value. Yeah, that's a good

821
00:50:47,390 --> 00:50:50,710
point. I didn't even think at that level, very basic level. It's just

822
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:54,790
checking that this is even something that you want to put in your glass. Yeah.

823
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:57,430
Beyond that, you start to get into more of that

824
00:50:59,110 --> 00:51:02,870
subjective kind of approach. But I think there's a place

825
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:05,350
for it. Like I said, there's a place for it. It's just not the only.

826
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,000
I think it used to be, it used to feel like

827
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,040
scores drove everything. And I think it's that's changed. And that's

828
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,200
okay. I think that's just fine. On the flip side, you go to.

829
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,440
What town are you in? What's that? In

830
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,200
Connecticut? Okay. I suppose the supermarket's the

831
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,600
same, but if you go to Vons or Ralster Pavilions here, every

832
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,880
bottle has a shelf talker. We don't have. We can't.

833
00:51:33,710 --> 00:51:37,150
We don't have wine in the. In the supermarket.

834
00:51:37,150 --> 00:51:40,950
Supermarket, yeah. Sorry. The wine shop's not going to do that. Oh, my God, it's

835
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:44,510
so confusing. I go in there and I. I've done this, you know,

836
00:51:44,590 --> 00:51:47,630
like, I look at the shop, I go, how would I. How would I possibly

837
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:51,390
make a decision as a consumer if every bottle has something to say like that?

838
00:51:51,950 --> 00:51:55,710
I think it's funny. This just came up. I was

839
00:51:55,710 --> 00:51:59,470
recently in Michigan with family and I. We were in

840
00:51:59,470 --> 00:52:03,110
a. In a supermarket that had wine from all over. And I was watching

841
00:52:03,110 --> 00:52:06,190
how they chose because I usually go in and they're like, tell me what to

842
00:52:06,190 --> 00:52:09,870
get. And labels are still a big one. I hate to say it,

843
00:52:10,190 --> 00:52:13,790
but they are looking at the label. They're looking at the

844
00:52:13,790 --> 00:52:17,390
price. I mean, you know, this is not a

845
00:52:17,390 --> 00:52:21,110
super deep wine drinker doing this, but, you

846
00:52:21,110 --> 00:52:24,950
know, it's overwhelming. That's all we have

847
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:28,700
is a look at. And I thought maybe that's shelf talkers and

848
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:32,420
all that. Yeah, right. But maybe we should, because the fallacy of scores, and

849
00:52:32,420 --> 00:52:35,340
we're actually out of time already. But the fallacy of scores, in my opinion is

850
00:52:35,340 --> 00:52:37,260
I had a wonderful 95 point.

851
00:52:40,140 --> 00:52:43,980
Forgot the island now. But it was a. A grape you'd never heard

852
00:52:43,980 --> 00:52:47,060
of, and it was out of a remote island off of Italy, and it wasn't

853
00:52:47,060 --> 00:52:50,780
Sardinia. It was something else. And I go, wow, this is amazing. Of

854
00:52:50,780 --> 00:52:54,510
course, soil. It had 95. I mean, a world

855
00:52:54,510 --> 00:52:57,910
of difference to a Napa 95 point Napa cab. Right?

856
00:52:58,150 --> 00:53:01,670
So if you're chasing scores, you certainly're gonna find a variety of

857
00:53:01,670 --> 00:53:05,150
wines that some you will not like, but at least you know that it was

858
00:53:05,150 --> 00:53:08,230
properly made based on, you know, what's in the bottle. So maybe

859
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:12,510
part of the education is like elementary label reading. So if you go to the

860
00:53:12,510 --> 00:53:15,990
store and you look at the shelf and you see California, but you also see

861
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:19,660
Napa, and the prices are the same and the grapes the same. Maybe the idea

862
00:53:19,660 --> 00:53:23,380
of the pedigree of the Napa version is something you would lean

863
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:27,140
towards just because you have a slight understanding of what the label is

864
00:53:27,140 --> 00:53:30,700
telling you. I don't know. No, it's a really good point. There's. Even so there's

865
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:34,340
a lot of subjectivity in scoring and like not only the

866
00:53:34,340 --> 00:53:38,140
critic themselves, but also the category that they're scoring

867
00:53:38,140 --> 00:53:41,900
in. Are they, is that a 95 point wine compared to other wines

868
00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:45,660
from Sardinia or wherever it is? Is that a 95 point

869
00:53:45,660 --> 00:53:49,380
wine in the, in the broad sphere of, you know, whatever

870
00:53:49,380 --> 00:53:53,100
the variety is, it's, it's, it's a little confusing. So yeah,

871
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,180
you have to take, I always say like, you know, you have to be your

872
00:53:56,180 --> 00:53:59,780
own advocate as a wine drinker. You know, taste and

873
00:54:00,740 --> 00:54:04,460
follow your instincts and like what you like because sometimes it

874
00:54:04,460 --> 00:54:08,180
is quite subjective and multi layered. So

875
00:54:08,260 --> 00:54:10,500
did we solve anything today? I don't know.

876
00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:15,140
I think we were in agreement on most things.

877
00:54:15,970 --> 00:54:19,730
So I think what we solved is that wineries need to take control

878
00:54:19,810 --> 00:54:23,570
of their understanding of hospitality and in person experiences,

879
00:54:24,850 --> 00:54:28,690
you know, and that they should be looking at less saturated

880
00:54:28,690 --> 00:54:32,330
and underexposed markets. I didn't get into that. I do talk to

881
00:54:32,330 --> 00:54:36,130
people about that a lot. Stop trying to be in the New York market

882
00:54:36,130 --> 00:54:39,810
as your first go. Why don't you start looking at

883
00:54:39,810 --> 00:54:43,530
Boulder or Asheville or you know, look at markets that

884
00:54:43,530 --> 00:54:46,690
are food driven, that maybe aren't saturated with wine and

885
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:50,740
get in those markets and pitch those media.

886
00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:54,820
Because yeah, it's sometimes it's just the obvious that

887
00:54:54,820 --> 00:54:57,860
people overlook and it's like. Yeah. So anyway,

888
00:54:58,580 --> 00:55:01,700
I think, I think staying the course, like I said earlier

889
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:06,980
and it will resolve, some of this will resolve or

890
00:55:06,980 --> 00:55:10,620
there'll be new consumer challenges on the horizon because there's new

891
00:55:10,620 --> 00:55:13,140
marketing methods and there's new AI based

892
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:17,740
purchasing and consumerism and that, that are going to throw messages at.

893
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:21,380
It's, it's an unknown. The only thing that's known, and this came from

894
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:24,340
Kevin o' Leary once and I had experienced it at the Wine of the Month

895
00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:28,060
club, which is what's working today is not going to work tomorrow. Yesterday didn't

896
00:55:28,060 --> 00:55:31,820
work today. That's true. So you do have to be dynamic and I think that's

897
00:55:31,820 --> 00:55:35,660
really hard for wineries, especially small ones who got in the business because they

898
00:55:35,660 --> 00:55:39,060
love the business, they love the product, they want to express themselves,

899
00:55:39,790 --> 00:55:43,630
but they're confronted with contemporary marketing requirements. And that's

900
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:47,710
much more complicated than probably expected at the time.

901
00:55:48,110 --> 00:55:51,950
Well, and like I said, you can't, you can't possibly and shouldn't I agree

902
00:55:52,030 --> 00:55:55,230
be try to be all things, all people. It changes all the time. You're going

903
00:55:55,230 --> 00:55:58,510
to be exhausted trying to do it. You should stay the course. But

904
00:55:58,990 --> 00:56:02,670
just take a look at some simple. The simple areas that you can be,

905
00:56:02,670 --> 00:56:06,110
you know, a little more buttoned up on. I mean, I, like I said, messaging.

906
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,640
Just make sure your website, you know, you taught it's up to date. It's not

907
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,480
10 years out of date. Make sure that, you know, you

908
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,240
kind of understand who you're talking to. And. And it doesn't have

909
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,800
to be terribly complicated. You can get deeper than that. But

910
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,520
you also don't want to chase trends. We, We've, you know, seen what happens when

911
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,040
people do that. It doesn't. Doesn't go well for them. So it's kind of somewhere

912
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,760
in the middle there. You have to be open and nimble, but at the same

913
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,540
time be true to yourself. And. And that tends to be

914
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:40,740
the success. The good balance. Well

915
00:56:40,740 --> 00:56:44,020
described. It's such an honor to have you on the show. A pleasure. After all

916
00:56:44,020 --> 00:56:47,780
these attempts, I know I. Knew we would

917
00:56:47,780 --> 00:56:51,540
make it happen eventually, so I really appreciate it. I appreciate the

918
00:56:51,540 --> 00:56:53,900
time today. Cheers. Okay. Cheers. Thanks.